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When Human Conversations Became Part of the Holy Qur’an

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How Muhammad's uncle's words in a conversation with him was later snapped up by Allah and revealed a verse on its basis...


[This article is written based on discussion at Statements that became part of Quran]

When you start with certainties, you end up with doubts! But, when you start with doubts, you reach that certainty’. - Anonymous

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In terms of Islam’s claims regarding the Qur’an being holistically divine, I wonder if anyone has ever thought about those statements by various people (including the holy Prophet himself), which later became part of the Holy Qur’an as sacred verses by Allah.

Here is one example:

“Muhammad meets Zayd b. ‘Amr and offers him meat that was slaughtered for the Pagan idols house at the Kaaba (Sahih Bukhari, 7.67.407, 5.58.169) Volume 7, Book 67, Number 407: Narrated ‘Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said that he met Zayd bin ‘Amr b. Nufail at a place near Baldah and this had happened before Allah's Apostle received the Divine Inspirations. Allah’s Apostle presented a dish of meat (that had been offered to him by the pagans) to Zayd bin ‘Amr, but Zayd refused to eat of it and then said (to the pagans), “I do not eat of what you slaughter on your stone altars (Ansabs) nor do I eat except that on which Allah’s Name has been mentioned on slaughtering.” Volume 5, Book 58, Number 169.

In the above ensemble, as we can see that Zayd b. 'Amr’s disliking towards the offertory meat slaughtered by Pagan Arabs for their Idols, which later on becomes part of the revered Qur’an and its now one the most essential part of the Muslim faith, Halal Meat as we know of it!!! Here is the verse Allah later revealed clearly with inspiration from this conversation:

“Forbidden to you (for food) are carrion and blood and swine flesh, and that of which has been dedicated to any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which has been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, except that which you make lawful (by the death stroke), and that which has been immolated to idols.” [Quran 5:3]

Who was Zayd ibn Amr?

Good question! There is some history available about Zayd, according to Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat-e-Rasulallah (the first book to look into the life of Prophet Muhammad). Zayd was one of the four peoples, who were in search of the true Abrahamic Religion. One of them was Warraqa ibn Nawfal, cousin of Prophet Muhammad’s first wife Hazrat Khadijah. Zayd was an old man when a young Pagan Muhammad met him. He had travelled quite extensively and remained confused about the true monotheistic religion. Zayd had developed a deep hatred towards the Pagan Arabs and their idea of Polytheistic Religion. He also disliked the traditions such as making round circles of the Kaaba in order to make the Idol Gods happy, burying alive female children, and eating meats of animals sacrificed to Pagan Idol Gods.

So what’s the problem?

The problem is that, the Quran is supposed to be the word of Allah. But, this incident gives the impression that these words were first perhaps used by Zayd Ibn Amr before it became part of the holy Qur’an. How can this ever happen? Allah surely could have come up with some better or at least different words altogether?

But that’s only in the Ahadiths?

Yes I know, and any scholastic people can reject the validity of such Ahadiths altogether because, essentially Ahadiths is nothing but the best of a memory recall of someone who lived during Prophet Muhammad’s times passed through multiple generations. But, we also must not forget the typical argument amongst Muslims that:

“Not everything can be found in Qur’an, you’ve to consult Ahadiths and even Fiqah (where Qur’an and Ahadiths cannot help)”

We also must not forget that, some of the most essential part of the Islamic rituals is also followed as per the Ahadiths and Sunnah, and that they are nowhere to be found in Qur’an as such. I’ve no problem accepting the theory that the Ahadiths cannot be trusted but, then you cannot even be selective about the Ahadiths that – whatever Ahadiths you like will be valid and where it wouldn’t make sense you would start questioning about its validity?

Comments (51)Add Comment
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 02, 2012
Brokaan. Thanks for your article in quick succession. Your articles serve a lot in spelling out message through Quran.

You write "In terms of Islam’s claims regarding the Qur’an being holistically divine, I wonder if anyone has ever thought about those statements by various people (including the holy Prophet himself), which later became part of the Holy Qur’an as sacred verses by Allah."

Brookan Gods revelations were known prior to Quran also. Allah says

لَّا يَأْتِيهِ الْبَاطِلُ مِن بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَلَا مِنْ خَلْفِهِ ۖ تَنزِيلٌ مِّنْ حَكِيمٍ حَمِيدٍ

"Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the apostles before you; surely your Lord is the Lord of forgiveness and the Lord of painful retribution. 41:43

At one place Allah said "Didnt they hear what was given to Abraham and Moses". I dont remember the exact citation. I will find for you if asked.

The hadis is always false. We dont know who was Zaid Amr? Even then I am not surprised.
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Article
written by Gnostic , August 02, 2012
The food rules did also appear in Acts in the New Testament. All in all there is hardly anything really new in the quran and this raises the question why we should call it "revealations".

What was really revealed in the quran that was not known before? On the other hand, the quran itself claims that there are no mysteries not revealed by the quran ...

Does this mean that I can get all information from there for building a nuclear bomb or a rocket to fly to the moon? It should but this is only ridiculous by supposing that there is no other knowledge available ...
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Reed you haven't answered me logically even after an year
written by Pugo , August 02, 2012
reed, i asked you a q a year back why 6 million muslims are leaving the absurd and dangerous murderous cult of islam every year? Why iraninans want to go back to Zorasterism again as per proven surveys. Don't give cliched answers. please give logic to defend this murderous cult of islam started by paedophile muhammad
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written by berq to reed , August 02, 2012
Reed you stated that the hadis is always false.Muslim scholars admitted that they can not understand quran without the help of hadis.Why you insist that Muslims should reject the hadis?Can you convince the whole Ummah that they should reject the hadis.Majorty of Muslims believe, suppose if quran is the body then hadis is his soul.If you take the soul out of body then body is dead.Being a Muslim you you cannot reject the hadis.It is not possible for any Muslim that he only believe in the authentic hadises.How he will found them? why the kifars allow you to pick and choose.If hadis proves that muhammad did what he did and did lot of disgracefull things to humanity,and he was a evil person face this reality.If hadis is false it mean you are telling us that muhammad was liar.
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Pugo
written by Abc , August 02, 2012
A proven survey??
Where are you getting your stats from??
Let's have a read of these surveys??

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Broqaan
written by fineliving56 , August 02, 2012
You speaking my mind … except eloquently and planty of proofs …. thank you .

These little things in Quran … that proves it's falsity beyond the shadow of the doubt, are spread everywhere in it, all we have to do is look for them ..

Here is an obvious one that proofs Quran is just written by a faulty mind… who cares about the beauty of quran and how it sounds more the content .

The story of Abi Lahab in Q 111 :

1- Perish the hand of the father of flame,[ Abi Lahab ] Perish he. ….2- there is no benefit to him [ in the hereafter] from all his wealth and from all his gain. ….3 - soon he will be burnt in fire of burning flame, * and his wife carrier the wood * …in her nick is the rope that made out of balm-leaf .

This Aya … Muslims should be embraced from …

it is one thing for Allah to point out how bad of Abi Lahab [ no exculpation what so ever in Quran ] …it is another, to mention his wife where she has nothing to do with was said or done by her Husband … This Aya is so weak and make no sense at all ..

As if the writter put that sentence 111/ 4 to not to compleat a thought but to make the the whole thing RHYME BETTER …

As we know Quran is written in "' Nathir She'ary'' style … open poetry … means words rhymes, but has no structure as classic Arabic poetry …

So in 111 … in the end of each Aya , the letters are the same … like as any poetry

111/ 1 … Watab … Perish

111/2 …Kassab … gain

111/3 … Lahab .. name

111/4 … Hatab … tree wood

then it brakes and change to …

111/5 … Masad … palm- tree fiber

[ I guess the writer of Quran, ran out of words that ends with the letter ..B … so came up with a word that sound the same but ends with the letter D instead …

it seems ...111/4 ended with the word wood [ Hatab ] just for the sake of beauty of the words not the content because the content of 111/4 does not make any sense ..

Why would a Muslim repeat this short Aya every preyer 5 times a day … ?! …

"' His wife carrying wood "' !!!!

Ludicrous

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Fables in Quran
written by Kafirwala , August 02, 2012
Dear Fineliving, your comment 'ludicrous' or ridiculous is the real comment any sane person could make about the plagiarized stories/tales/fables mentioned in the Quran. Almost all of them are directly copied in a haphazard manner from Bible/ Talmud and defy explanation without clarification from the original texts. Apart from these stories, a few stories/fables from Arabian folklore also have been included by Mo, one of which is surely the Abu Lahab episode so haphazardly and incongruously narrated in the 111th sura. Even in Arabian folklore, this tale has not been adequately outlined. I challenge Mr. Reed Wilson, the self- proclaimed Quran expert to narrate the story with all details in these columns. Let us see his expertise.
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Kafirwalah
written by fineliving56 , August 02, 2012
The story of Abu Lahab should be known by all Muslims due to his importance in Muhammad's life and how he was the drive behind many of Muhammad's actions … but you would be surprised of how many Muslims who do not know who he is .. because of the Quran's "' ambiguity when it mentions him'' …and most Muslims know hadeeth from hearsay from Imams and others … they do not investigate on their own.

Quran Only believers will be lost at such words about Abi Lahab in Q, 111 .. hadeeth and Sirah are need it to understand why this cryptic mention of Abu Lahab and his wive .
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Reed Wilson
written by zoma , August 02, 2012
could you tell me why allah repeated the story of moses six times in the quran
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 02, 2012
Pugo. " reed, i asked you a q a year back why 6 million muslims are leaving the absurd and dangerous murderous cult of islam every year? Why iraninans want to go back to Zorasterism again as per proven surveys. Don't give cliched answers. please give logic
to defend this murderous cult of islam started by paedophile muhammad".

Yes Pugo I did not answer that. Quite many questions Reed cant answer. He cant even answer if Pugo is girl or boy, married unmarried and if married why he married him or her.

The best way of finding the reason of leaving faith is to interview those 6 million and the Iranians. Do they give any reason?

You yourself give one reason as according to you Islam was an absurd and dangerous murderous cult.
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 02, 2012
Gnostic. You asked " The food rules did also appear in Acts in the New Testament. All in all there is hardly anything really new in the quran and this raises the question why we should call it "revealations".

Quran answers at 5:46-48

وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰ آثَارِهِم بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ ﴿٤٦﴾ وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الْإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ ﴿٤٧﴾ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ ۖ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ ۚ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَة

And I sent Jesus, the son of Mary, after those Prophets, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and which confirms the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and a guidance and admonition for the God-fearing. Let the followers of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein, and those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are the transgressors. Then We revealed the Book to you with Truth, confirming whatever of the Book was revealed before, and protecting and guarding over it. Judge, then, in the affairs of men in accordance with the Law that Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires in disregard of the Truth which has come to you...".
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
Mr. Kafirwala. You write "I challenge Mr. Reed Wilson, the self- proclaimed Quran expert to narrate the story with all details in these columns. Let us see his expertise."

Where did he claim? He gives ready made translations available on net. He believes that Quran was not revealed for experts and does not require prerequisites. Quran itself says it is simple. Therefore, one cannot further simplify it. Reed is against religious experts and religious scholars. Why should he wish to be one?
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re: Reed
written by Gnostic , August 03, 2012
You are not answering my question. You are only providing circular reasoning like most muslims. Much like the quran which is always referring to itself like Allah who always refers to himself. But I asked for useful things and not always the same blah blah. Substantial wisdom does not refer to an Allah who knows everything and who can everything. True wisdom talks about reality which is the only truth.

There are Billions of people who never feel any need for Allah. Allah is useless because he does nothing. Or does he kill the people in Syria? Why doesnt he provide help? Why should anybody pray for help if the only help comes from other people?

In the quran are no answers for anything but for Allah himself. The whole quran is a soliloquy. Allah talks to himself that he is so great, powerful and that he knows anything and that he can punish anybody. But does he? And what knowledge is there in the quran? There is nothing new, absolutely nothing!
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
To berq to reed. You have asked "Reed you stated that the hadis is always false.Muslim scholars admitted that they can not understand quran without the help of hadis.Why you insist that Muslims should reject the hadis?

I have given an explanation to Yibel on

http://islam-watch.org/authors...#comments


Why does RW say that "hadis which is clear rejection of Quran"
written by Reed Wilson , July 19, 2012

If they are Muslim scholars they are biased. Scholar should be scholar. No other brand.

They should give examples that where hadis explained Quran and whether that explanation was correct.

To me, as I am told by Quran, Quran is easy and simple. Therefore one can only confuse by explanation.

Quran is revealed for common man and address common man direct. No intermediary required.

I will appreciate if have any further questions. Thanks.
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
Gnostic. " You are not answering my question. You are only providing circular reasoning like most muslims."

Which question? When did you ask?
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Open question to all Muslims - (completely off topic)
written by Kaser , August 03, 2012
Hi there. It's been a while since I posted here.

Reading this, and so many other articles, news, commentaries, video, and so on featuring extremists promising the "light" of Islam on the whole world - it generates a question in my mind. One that I find hard to get a clear answer.

Here goes: (open to any muslim to answer): Once the whole planet (yes, planet) basks in the joy and light of Islam, those pesky seductive women are in their right place, all humans embrace Allah, pray 5 times a day, and so on... What next? What next I ask because I can only assume Educated Muslims must know for a fact that planet earth is but one of Billions of planets in the Universe. Surely Allah must have created these BILLIONS of other planets, stars, galaxies and so on for a purpose?

Since creating earth and the solar system required less than a billionth of a billionth of a percent of allah's mighty "Universe-creating-power" - what about all the rest - should we then wait and hope to find an extra-terrestrial civilization to then go and "enlighten" with Islam ?

I speak to educated Muslims here, not the foaming-at-the-mouth sex-depraved-walking-bombs. The university educated Muslims - those that have received non-Madrassa education.

How do you reconcile:
1- the religious "Allah-created-everything, including (according to Mohammed's diatribes) half-intelligent females that flock straight-to-hell"
ALONG
2- with a massive UNIVERSE filled with billions upon billions of stars like our own little sun... Including my favorite - VY Canis Majoris. Look it up on google - fascinating...

Does it keep you up at night? Why do you believe Allah spent all that unfathomable energy creating 99.999999 % of the universe NOT here on earth for us to enjoy??
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Kaser
written by finelnilving56 , August 03, 2012
Logical Questions ...

I can't wait to find out the answers from the educated Muslims who visit here ...

Speaking of the universe ...

I read this quote from somewhere, and I thought to shear it :

" We are the attempt of the universe to understand it self " .
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To all religious fanatics
written by Kaser , August 03, 2012
From what I have read, there is no point in arguing with Koran believers. Remember, they believe that the Koran is the direct word of God for all humanity. A pure book, devoid of any faults. Meaning they DO believe women are weak of religion and intelligence !!! Women Muslims, do you also think the Koran is the pure word of god, or the words or a narcissic war-mongering cultist?

I am certain that the vast majority of educated Muslims do not believe this. But they have trouble abandoning their faith, much as I did a long time ago. It's comfortable to stay within the boundaries set by our parents and our family. Not to mention that when you are "born" a muslim, leaving the faith is punishable by death. And to question Islam means you are guilty of blasphemy.

Add all this, and the pressure is on to blindly accept the cult, ignoring facts and make excuses. But in reality, only the power-hungry, hate-filled frustrated "grown-up" boys, proudly sporting their "fist-sized" beards. want to push this sh*t down our throats.

Always amazes me to hear people convince themselves they can believe that an all-powerful "god" created the universe, humans, and all, and then had to have DICTATE through one of his minions (The "Prophet") rules of "life" or all living on the planet.

Can one Muslim explain to me why the "all-powerful" god did not send down, in an awe-inspiring flash of multiple bolts of lightning, a glowing blue-book of rules, simultaneously to all peoples of the planet in their own language? Why have to go through the trouble of "revelations" through one sorry-ass frustrated illiterate failure?

Remember, we are talking about the same "god" that created the super-massive black-hole at the center of our galaxy... The Virgo Super-cluster (look-it up) C'mon, why not a show of face for a change??? He's failed miserably up to now... because after 1,400 years, still no more than 20% of the world population believe in this cult... Most of them uneducated...

Educate them, and they will turn their backs. The Taliban understood this - reason the prevented women from going to school...

Religious fanatics, care to answer?
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Ibn Ishaq and al Tabari.. .are they reliable?
written by Brother Mark , August 03, 2012
Regarding the reliability of al hadith, I believe that this
might be useful.

http://talktruthful.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/16/


Have a great day!


Brother Mark:)
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Reed Wilson's Quran gimmicks
written by Kafirwala , August 03, 2012
'Where did he claim? He gives ready made translations available on net. He believes that Quran was not revealed for experts and does not require prerequisites. Quran itself says it is simple.'

Here 'he' is RW talking about himself most reverentially. Be it as may, 'he' conveniently forgot that he took upon himself the challenge of explaining the stories narrated haphazardly in Quran without the help of Bible/Talmud in another thread. So, he should be able to explain any tale mentioned in Quran without the help/backing of the original text, shouldn't he? Abu Lahab is not a character in Bible/Talmud. He may be an Arabian folklore character or a contemporary of Mo himself, as Fineliving disclosed. Anyway, I challenge Reed to give the full story of Abu Lahab as described in Quran in this site. Come on Reed, you say all stories in Quran are independently comprehensible and simple. Tell me who is Abu Lahab then? How his two hands were destroyed? Why he should enter the flaming fire? What is the significance of his wife carrying the fire wood? Whether this happened at the time of Mo or later on only? All these things are not very clear in the Quran. At least if you could answer these questions, I will be satisfied.

Another thing Mr. Reed. You always say Quran is simple and easy to understand and as proof you will cite the claim of Quran in itself. Do you know how stupid your argument is? Just because a book says it is simple, will it become simple? I remember duh_swami bashing you a hundred times for your above stupid remark. If a book is to be simple, the readers should feel it. They are the people who decide it. Not the author of the book or any comment in it. If Quran were simple, there would not have been so many interpretations of its each and every sura. So many debates also could have been avoided. I would not have asked you anything about Abu Lahab. Even a small kid will understand these primary things.

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Quran & Hadith
written by Gnostic , August 03, 2012
BTW, the fact that the Hadith are in my view much lesser authentic does not change anything about islam since most muslims DO regard them as reliable and follow their instructions.

Moreover, we can even say that the Hadith were written in order to legalise many cruelties such as circumcision of young girls and women, marriage with children, rape of captured women, punishments etc.

Hadith constiute an important part of islam for most muslims and only a small minrity of less than 1 % or so do not accept them. Hadith play also an important part for the muslim cleric with their fatwas ruling anything of daily life in order to kill off any progress.
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Hadith et al
written by Infidel and More Proud , August 03, 2012
A few (minuscle) number of muslims do not accept hadiths for it puts their knickers in a twist. Truth hurts...
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written by vbv , August 03, 2012
If quran is the word of 'god' , then it is really a very poor show indeed. It is archaic, ungramatical( I happen to read its verses and they do not make any great sense or philosophy, except kill the kaffirs, do not take jews and christians for friends, destroy human civilisation, make everyone subservient to the barbaric arabs , ,believe only in that mad deity "allah" and his fake prophet Muhamad or else be consigned to the eternal flames of "hell", etc...). It has no relevance to the modern age, the age of science, knowledge and information. It is meant for dumb idiots of arabia and the middle-east who like to wallow in the 7th century AD backwardness, fear, superstitions and an immoral way of life , a life that is racist placing the arabs at the top of humanity and slavery for all the blacks. You can hardly call this shit-heap of muxck a religion, for a true religion requires spirituality, high thinking ,peace and happiness to all and everyone without discrimination. Islam does not qualify this basic tenet and its fake prophet was a brigand, a misogynist, slave-driver, a racist and the worst criminal wearing the badge of religion up his sleave. This clearly shows that islam is just a man-made potboiler of insane profanities and degenerate thinking.
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Revealations by real Scientists
written by Gnostic , August 03, 2012
If the quranic "revealations" by Allah were true, how would our weather forecasts look like? The quran says that it is Allah who decides by his own how the weather will look like and no forecast would be possible. However, perhaps 90% or more of our forecasts turn out to be true and the rest can always be explained without Allah because modern scientists know how weather works. Or does the weather guy say: Oh, we expected rain tonight but Allah decided not to send as any rain because we were sinful and did not pray for it - sorry!? Oh, this might happen in the muslim world but the muslims should not be proud of it ....
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
Kafirwalla. You write "Be it as may, 'he' conveniently forgot that he took upon himself the challenge of explaining the stories narrated haphazardly in Quran without the help of Bible/Talmud in another thread."

How you say that? It is only very recent. I am rather waiting.

You write " Anyway, I challenge Reed to give the full story of Abu Lahab as described in Quran in this site."

Your question is based on an assumption that Abu Lahab is a character, a person of this name, who is not there in Bible etc. Isnt it a fact my dear Kafirwala?

This wrong assumption itself is hadis dependent. Hadis invented one uncle of Muhammad and one son of Abdul Muttalib as Abu Lahab. Isnt it Mr. Kafirwala.

You write "He may be an Arabian folklore character or a contemporary of Mo himself, as Fineliving disclosed."

What a disclosure which starts with 'may be'.

How all of you are so sure that Mr. Lahab is a man and allegory? In the same manner as you are sure that Reed forgot?

There is one more Lahab in following verse 111:3 سَيَصْلَىٰ نَارًا ذَاتَ لَهَبٍ

What about this Lahab. None translated this Lahab as man or person. It is rather translated as flame or flaming invariably.

Isnt there something fishy Mr. kafirwala?

Everybody is not given duh-swamian courage. إِنَّ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْ عَزْمِ الْأُمُورِ
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
Kafirwala. I hope you understand:

How all of you are so sure that Mr. Lahab is a man and not an allegory?

Sorry for my keyboarding lapse.

Your challenge was that I cant explain without help of Bible Talmud and hadis etc. The sura you chose has no mention of lahab in Bible talmud etc. Hadis too does not give any explaination except telling name of Mrs. Lahab which makes no sense.

What Reed understands without such 'tools' that it is an allegory. One who is gigantic flames personified due to his deeds is a helpless person. His wealth will not help him. He will go to hell together with his spouse if he is a he or she. (Those who need spice of hadis will not be satisfied with this.)

"Another thing Mr. Reed. You always say Quran is simple and easy to understand and as proof you will cite the claim of Quran in itself. Do you know how stupid your argument is? Just because a book says it is simple, will it become simple?

It may not be stupid for a person who believed Quran and is convinced with it. Since you are not:

"Tell them: “It is a guidance and a healing to the believers. But to those who do not believe, it serves as a plug in their ears and a covering over their eyes. It is as if they are being called from a place far away. 41:44
The expression 'called from a place far away' is very poetic and beautiful and all the more in Arabic ُنَادَوْنَ مِن مَّكَانٍ بَعِيدٍ It is not possible to comprehend distant calls which cannot be perceived by senses unless abnormal.

"I remember duh_swami bashing you a hundred times for your above stupid remark. If a book is to be simple, the readers should feel it."

I alway admired his remarks as I guessed he was honest and hated dishonesty. He had the courage to accept the truth if convinced. I wish he comes back soon.

Yes they are people who will decide and I am one of them. The book is addressed to me and the message is loud and clear to me. Then how would I say it is not simple. Whatever is understood is simple.

"If Quran were simple, there would not have been so many interpretations of its each and every sura."

Because they have tummy to fill. They make money by telling something new. Why there are so many Mufassirs? One Tafseer would have been enough. I hope you know book trade.

It like one may ask if our regular meals were enough food why so many branded things like Horlics, Ovaltine etc.

Kafirwala thank you for taking my so much time. I have four more hours to start my drinking/eating. I enjoyed your post.

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Reed Wilson … Abu Lahab is a name !!!! do you understand the difference??
written by fineliving56 , August 03, 2012
WOW …

When are you going to diffrentiat words In Quran, that are the same but becouse of their place and the contaxt .. THEY BECOME DIFFERENT** MEANING**

Abu Lahab in 111 … is a NAME … a name !! … like your name, … Wilson … it has meaning in the english Language … but it is still your name … get it Reed ?

The Arabic word '' Lahab'' …means flame … it is a word used to describe fire …like '' lahab al nar '' …" fire flame ''

Abu Lahab's real name is ''Abd Al Azeez bin Ab Al Muttalib '' … he was Muhammad's uncle but he was half brother to Muhammad's father .

He was named …Lahab to his extreme handsomeness …

So Reed … you are mixing the Arabic words of Quran in a blander … to make your own MIX of words to make your own Quran .

I have never seen any Muslim ever do that much obfuscating … and I have lived and known so many Muslims …

Keep doing that … and I will keep pointing out your weak and apparent countless attempts to fool non Arabic speaking people .

You do not want to believe history … it is your business … people will still believe what is in history books until proofs, shows up, to proof otherwise .

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Reed gives an illogical answer
written by Pugo , August 03, 2012
Dear All Please refer to my question above and also reed's answer. Why he wants to defend a murderous cult like islam we need to know. islam is disgusting. My question has prooven it. why a lame answer from reed???? please force him guys to answer... he 'll never be able to answer... please force him again n again n again
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reed
written by zoma , August 03, 2012
Let the followers of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein


is allah stupid
how could the christians use the bible to judge while you muslims say it is edited

does muslims know more than their god :D:D
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
zoma. "how could the christians use the bible to judge while you muslims say it is edited"

Allah is not asking them to follow Bible. They will follow Gospel or Injil if it is available. Else they seek forgiveness and will say "sorry we dont find it".

Clement knows where is the real Gospel.
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Discussion above
written by Gnostic , August 03, 2012

There is no clear direction in the quran, many tunrarounds, abrogations etc.
How can Allah accept

-- the Gospel (of Jesus)
-- that jesus is christ aka messias
- that jesus is born by a virgin
- that jesus is the word (logos!)
- that he peformed many micracles
-that he created birds from mud
- was raised to heaven
-inspired by the holy spirit

You may disagree that jesus is the son of god or some kind of god but if you do so you cannot agree with the statements above because these are all arguments for the christian christology!

The virginity of Mary is typical not only in chrisitanity but similar accounts appear also in buddhism and many heroes in greek mythology have a god as parent,

But if I read the quran I can only think that the author cannot understand his own words.!
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
fineliving56. One thousand apologies. I unable understand your post.

I hope you will not mind.
0
...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
Pugo. " please force him guys to answer... he 'll never be able to answer... please force him again n again n again"

Please dont do that. Some people cannot give logical answers. Will you raise a mob of 6 m apostates to destroy Reed's house. You are aggressive people.
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Reed
written by fineliving56 , August 04, 2012
Simple ..

Abu Lahab is a NAME of a the Uncle of Muhammad as in Q / 111 / ... it is not, what you said

I gave an explanation of that in my Last post .

Is that clear enough ?
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
fineliving. You write "Abu Lahab is a NAME of a the Uncle of Muhammad as in Q / 111 / ... it is not, what you said".

It is unfounded. There is no reliable source for this. Tell me your source or you personally know that?
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In Makkah, Abu Lahab
written by Yibel , August 04, 2012
was a king of sorts. As chief of the Hashim clan, he was heir to the Ka'aba religious scam. He was also Muhammad’s next-door neighbor and uncle. Their mud huts shared a common wall. "Sometimes when Muhammad was performing the prayer - performing, not conversing - Islam is a charade - Abu Lahab would place a goat's stomach on him. Sometimes when food was being cooked in the courtyard, he and his wife would throw filth at the cooking pot. Lahab's wife had made it a practice to cast thorns at his door at night so that when he came out, they would stick in his feet."

Before Muhammad’s proclamation of prophethood, he married two of his three daughters to Lahab's sons, Utbah and Utaibah. It’s odd that a prophet would be so shortsighted as to marry his own flesh to such a repugnant man. But Muhammad was a profiteer, NOT a prophet. There was but one reason why he would give his daughters to someone he despised - Abu Lahab, like Khadija, had money, power, and prestige, things that could be usurped through arranged marriages.

Ibn Ishaq:Tabari VI:89 "One day the Messenger mounted al-Safa (his favorite she-camel) and called out: 'If I were to tell you that behind the hill there was an enemy host ready to fall upon you this evening, would you believe me?"
Certainly, the Meccans replied. He said, 'I am a warner in face of terrible doom.' Abu Lahab responded, 'If I were to accept your religion, what would I get?' The Prophet said, 'You would get what the others will get - submission to me.'
Abu Lahab said: 'Is there no preference or distinction for me?' The Prophet replied: 'What do you want.' Lahab said: 'May this religion perish in which I and all other people should be equal.' The Prophet said: 'Then I warn you that you are heading for a torment.' Then Allah (that is, Muhammad) revealed: 'The power of Abu Lahab will perish.' reciting to the end of the verse." Qur'an 111

Muhammad intended to reign alone.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
Yibel. There is one more lahab in 111:3. Why this lahab is not translated as uncle lahab and always translated as flame?

How Tabri gives first hand information whereas he was born afer more than 200 years in Persia? You can find the trustworthiness of his reports on net. They (he and Hisham) invented Ibn Ishaq who exists nowhere except in Tabri and Hisham.

You are great people with enormous courage!!
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
Yibel. You tell you are a Christian. What denomination? Are you RC?
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Reed
written by fineliving56 , August 04, 2012
Let me try again

Abu … or …. abi … means … the Father of___-

Um … or … Im … means … the Mather of ___

Lahab … means a '' flame ''

Abu Lahab … is a father of Flame … so far so good ? …Ok .

Since non of Lahab's sons names were Lahab … their names were ,in fact , … Atba ,Mu'atab , Utayib

So … Abu Lahab … was only a nick name … it is not a flame !! … it is the nick name of Abd Al Azeez the uncel of Muhammad .

Reed …

If your first born son's name is Muhammad, YOU Reed, will be called '' Abu Muhammad '' and your wife will be called '' Um Muhammad '' in Arabic tradition

the reason for that is to give respect for fathers and mothers … calling a mother who has a son, by her first name is considered rude in Arabic tradition …

I do not hear my name called when I visit back home … I am always called by my first born son's name .

Um ___

I hope you understood now … it is not a flame … it is a name …OK
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
finelliving. Thank ou. I know at least this much that it is kunniya, with pleural kunah.

Sometimes, like what cartoonist does, a prominent thing in a person is highlighted by prefixing abu like abu shuarab can be called a person with big mustaches. Abu turab or bu turab tiltle was given to person with mud on his body. bu Jahl or abu Jahl was given title to person whose ignorance was significant.

fineiving it is a pleasure learning from you.

I asked someone here that there is one more lahab in 111/3. Why that lahab is ALWAYS translated as flame or big flame? Why not uncle Lahab? Can you throw some light?

I
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RW
written by Kafirwala , August 04, 2012

Dear Fineliving, it is not that Reed Wilson does not know the difference between Abu Lahab and lahab. He knows very well why it is written that the wife of Abu Lahab followed him with a load of firewood too (though he does not know details of the story). He is playing fool here. Twisting of scriptures, contexts, useless and incomprehensive b/s like Quran is his favorite hobby, ever since he turned a muslim. He excels in oral, verbal and pseudo- intellectual jugglery and this hypocrite will go to any length or indulge in any dishonest excercise in order to glorify Islam. Perhaps he thinks that by doing this kind of skulduggery for Islam, he is earning Allah's goodwill and he may gain a few virgins more for his eternal pleasure hunt in his afterlife and who knows, the amorous Allah may grant him quite a no. of big breasted virgins for his use. Anyway, the saddest part of the whole story is that he does not know anything about the Abu Lahab episode for which Allah has taken pains to describe and allot the whole sura 111 to the story. Alas, as usual, there is no head or tail and lo, the story is not there in Bible/ Talmud too. What will poor Reed do, if anybody asks him the details of the tale? So, he is feigning sleep. Dear Fineliving, please don't wake him up. Let the sleeping dogs lie.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
Mr. Kafirwala. You are telling finelivining about RW "He is playing fool here. Twisting of scriptures, contexts, useless and incomprehensive b/s like Quran is his favorite hobby, ever since he turned a muslim. He excels in oral, verbal and pseudo- intellectual jugglery and this hypocrite will go to any length or indulge in any dishonest excercise in order to glorify Islam."

Now fineliving will start disliking RW as he is very bad.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
Kafirwala. You told all that about RW to Dear Fineliving.

From now onward she will start disliking RW as very bad.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
My dear Kafirwala. There is no story in sura111. What will happen when people search for story in warning?

There is a ready made story by Kathir, Ibn Jarir etc. They would be flogged upside down.
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To Reed Wilson
written by Kafirwala , August 05, 2012

Fineliving has asked you to give the meaning of verses in Q111.

If you think there is no story, only warning, please say what it is. Please also explain the context, meaning and significance of this warning, if you can.

If you don't or can't, I will have to deduce that you, the self-proclaimed Quran authority, know nothing about this vile book.

Come on, show your knowledge.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 06, 2012
Kafirwala. Verses sometime need context not suras.

"I will have to deduce that you, the self-proclaimed Quran authority".

Where is that claim? Deduce as you like.
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Verses sometime need context
written by Yibel , August 06, 2012
The Prophet said, 'You would get what the others will get - submission to me.'

Note that Muhammad said "Submission to ME" - Not submission to Allah -
The whole Qur'an and Islam is about Muhammad: his greed, his lusts, his pathologies. Just subsitiute Muhammad for Allah in the following passages:

Those who disbelieve in Allah's revelations will have a awful doom of wrath.45:11
Those who disbelieve are guilty folk. 45:31
Disbelievers will be rewarded with the ignominious doom of the Fire. 46:20
Serve only Allah or face the doom of a tremendous day. 46:21
If you believe Muhammed, Allah will forgive some of your sins and protect you from the painful doom (that he plans to torture everyone else with). 46:31
Allah will taunt the disbelievers that he torments in the fire, saying: "Taste the doom for that ye disbelieved." 46:34
Allah makes the works of disbelievers vain. 47:1
Those who disbelieve follow falsehood. 47:3
Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4
Allah will damn the disbelievers and make all their actions fruitless. 47:8-9
Disbelievers may eat and be happy now, but the Fire will be their final home. 47:12
Those who turn away from Islam, and obey non-Muslims in some things, have been seduced by Satan. 47:25-26
Angels will gather them together and smite their faces and backs. 47:27
Allah will make the actions those who disbelieve fruitless. 47:32
Those who disbelieve will never be pardoned by Allah. 47:34-35
Those who think an evil thought concerning Allah will be cursed and sent to hell by him. 48:6
Allah has prepared a flame for the disbelievers. 48:13
If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16
"Whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." 48:17
Allah punished those who disbelieved with a painful punishment. 48:25
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RW's Quranic knowledge
written by Kafirwala , August 06, 2012

It is a fact that Reed Wilson cannot say anything about Quran : sura 111. Because, he could not understand a bit of that b/s and he is trying all tricks up his sleeves to hide his embarrassment to acknowledge it publicly. But, the readers of this site are competent enough to see through his games. It is better for him, if he would remember this fact.
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Here is Muhammad's 20th revelation
written by Yibel , August 07, 2012
Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of Daybreak from the mischief of His Creation; from the mischief of the night when she spreads her darkness; from the mischief of conjuring witches; from the mischief of the envier, when he envies." 113:1-5

Perhaps Reed Wilson can explain why Muhammad is seeking refuge in Marduk (Amar-Udak - The Lord of Daybreak, The Young Steer of the Sky) from darkness (night time), witches, enviers, and other evil stuff that Marduk, his stone-gawd, apparently created. Was MuhamMAD afraid of the dark? And ghosties and ghoulies and two-legged beasties and things that go BUMP in the night?

According to Islamic traditions, when Muhammad lay in bed with his final illness, he recited this particular surah over and over.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 07, 2012
Yibel. Good post. Yibel الْفَلَقِis not daybreak. It is translators convenience to translate like that.The Arabic word الْفَلَقِ is split, cleave,fission, explosion, blast and breaking and cracking giving rise to enormous energy/force. As we see:

إِنَّ اللَّـهَ فَالِقُ الْحَبِّ وَالنَّوَىٰ ۖ يُخْرِجُ الْحَيَّ مِنَ الْمَيِّتِ وَمُخْرِجُ الْمَيِّتِ مِنَ الْحَيِّ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّـهُ ۖ فَأَنَّىٰ تُؤْفَكُونَ
where Allah calls himsef as فَالِقُ الْحَبِّ or breaker of seed stone. There are several examples where the word is used in senses which I dont remeber off hand.

The translator has no knowledge of science. How can he translate ' I seek refuge the lord or explosion or lord of enormous power of explosion or nuclear fission?

Now I come to sura 113

قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ الْفَلَقِ ﴿١﴾ مِن شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ ﴿٢﴾ وَمِن شَرِّ غَاسِقٍ إِذَا وَقَبَ ﴿٣﴾ وَمِن شَرِّ النَّفَّاثَاتِ فِي الْعُقَدِ ﴿٤﴾ وَمِن شَرِّ حَاسِدٍ إِذَا حَسَدَ ﴿٥﴾

Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, (1) From the evil of whatever He has created, (2) And from the evil of the utterly dark night when it comes, (3) And from the evil of those who blow on knots, (4) And from the evil of the jealous when he is doing jealousy.(5)

We know that whatever is created has darker side also. Allah is telling us the same thing that even wealth can be detrimental. Jesus said store your wealth with god, else it will either be spoiled or be stolen.

Yibel all has translated as daybreak or rising day etc. You are not to be blamed for that. But it is not the meaning of الْفَلَقِ which is used in text. It is derived as per translators limited wisdom.

There are many more such examples of wrong translations. Most the translators are Muslims who derive wrong meanings from hadis.


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Reed Wilson and false claims
written by lw1 , August 11, 2012
In the article 'Knowing Muhammad's Islam in 20 Steps' of 22 July 2012, Reed Wilson falsely claimed (on 27 July) that duh-swami had said that
'Reed influences + Reed has shown some extremely good points here .......on 13 August 2011.'
On 14 August 2011, duh-swami made the point that the above was written by a clone and not by him.
Is this the Islamic lie' Tawriya' or 'Kitman' ?
Another lie told by Reed Wilson -not the first time, is that Pope apologized for his remark about Mohammad bringing the only new thing, which was to convert non-believers with sword.
The Pope only said that he was sorry if Muslims' feelings were hurt, but he did not retract his statement.

Mohammed al-Nujeimi, a professor at the Institute of Judicial and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, criticized the Pope's statement -'The Pope does not want to apologize. He is evading apology and what he said to-day is a repetition of his previous statement' he told Al-Arabiya TV.
He understands that the Pope has not apologized and I agree.

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