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Accession of Turkey into the EU: A Historic Opportunity for Civilizing Islam

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On October 30, 2012, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, while visiting Germany, warned that the European Union (EU) will lose his nation if it is not accepted as a member by 2023.

With the coming of the Hollande Government to power in France, Sarkozy's veto on Turkey’s entry into the EU has been removed. As a result, Turkey accession into the EU seems more certain than ever. But the leaders of Europe must use this opportunity to challenge Turkey to civilize and humanize Islam, which can be added as a new chapter to the 35th Chapters of the EU Charter.

Kemal Attaturk, the father of the Turkey Republic (1923) stated that Islam was “a rotting corpse” and attempted to change Turkey into a modern secular state with separation of the mosque and state. Unfortunately his legacy is being rapidly destroyed by the Islamist AKP Party government of Prime Minister Edrogen and President Gul, who are re–imposing the Quranic teachings and Sharia Law on the country in a step-by-step process. They are using democracy to create an Islamic state. Turkey is on the verge of becoming another Iran.

As Turkey is in the process of joining the EU, it must complete the 35 chapters of the EU Charter, bringing its legal, commercial and political structures up to EU standards. However, there is a historical opportunity to demand that Turkey also reforms Islam before joining the EU, which can constitute an additional chapter, CHAPTER 36, of the EU Charter.

In order to match with the secular standard of Europe, the first step Turkey must take is to declare that the Quran is not a complete code life of its followers, and not a guidance to society. It must be declared that a good part of the Quran is unacceptable to the civilized society, which must be reformed or expunged.

Following conditions must be added to the 36th Chapter of EU Charter.

1. Bring an end to Islam’s 1400-year-old war against the kafirs: It is the prime directive of Islam to conquer the nations of the world for Allah by whatever means necessary. Allah seeks the extermination and subjugation (dhimmi subjects) of all kafirs, so that Islam becomes the only religion on earth (see 2:191-193, 8:39). In order for Turkey to enter the EU, the Turkish government must condemn such barbaric dictates of the Quran and Islam.  Turkey must declare an end to Islam’s 1,400-year war against Kafirs of the world in order to enter the EU.

2. Denouncing the Quranic teachings of the oppression, subjugation and rape of women. Capturing the Kafir women by waging wars for raping and sexual molestation is commanded by the Quran. Such teachings are most abhorrent to the civilized standard of human ethics and EU law. For Turkey to enter the EU, its government must condemn and renounce such anti-women teachings of the Quran and declare complete equality of men and women. Turkey must enact into law the "Universal Declaration of the Equality of Women": http://www.islamreform.net/new-page-64.htm

3. Denouncing the Quranic prophetic teachings of child sexual abuse: The Quran enacts laws allowing sexual relations between prepubescent girls and adult men (65:4) and Prophet Muhammad had married prepubescent Aisha at the age of 6, and thighed with her until she turned 9 to sexually consummation of the marriage. Thighing a 6-year-old girl for sexual pleasure and having sex with a 9-year-old are both deemed criminal sexual offence in civilized societies. For entering the EU, Turkey must denounce such Quranic teachings and the Prophet’s criminal sexual activities, and institute laws giving complete protection of young girls from the Islam-sanctioned sexual abuse and molestation.

4. Denouncing the Quranic sanction of slavery and sex-slavery: The Quran has sanctioned slavery as a divine institution of Muslim societies for eternity. It has particularly given blessings to waging war for enslaving Kafir women and using them as sex-slave. In order to enter the EU, Turkey must denounce these divine sanctions of the Quran.

5. Denouncing the Quran sanction of looting and plundering booty: The Quran has given Muslims the divine right to attack the Kafir communities and nations for plundering property and capturing their women and children as slaves. Turkey must denounce such barbaric teachings of the Quran before it can enter the EU.

6. Denouncing cruel punishments of Islam: Islam sanctions all kinds of cruel punishments and barbaric punishments, such as cutting hands and limbs for stealing and robbery, and even for non-crimes such as lashing for fornication, stoning to death for adultery, and death for leaving Islam. Turkey must denounce such barbaric punishments of the Quran and Sunnah before it be allowed to enter the EU.

7. Denouncing the Quranic teachings of hate, inequality and racism. All human beings are created equal. But Islam demands the inferiority and sub-humanness of kafirs. Turkey must denounce all the Quranic teachings, calling for the murder, torture, terrorization of kafirs before being allowed into the EU.

8. Denouncing polygamy: Civilized societies consider men and women as equal. Turkey must denounce the Quran-sanctioned signature Islamic institution of polygamy before it is allowed to be a member of the EU.

10. Denouncing Sharia Law: Secular societies of Europe are run by man-made laws. For entering the EU, Turkey must denounce and ban the Islamic divine laws, or Sharia, which is a complete anti-thesis of the secular laws of Europe. It must declare a complete separation of state and religion.

11. Make Islam a private religion: Islam is militant politico-religious ideology that bears on aspects of social, political and spiritual spheres of Muslim societies. In fact, Islam is 90% political, with only 10% of it have anything to do with religion. Before Turkey can join the EU, it must denounce the political aspect of Islam (90%) and change Islam into a personal religion, wherein Muslims pray 5 times a day, observe the Ramadan fasting, go on pilgrimage, abstain from alcohol, donate to charity etc.

13. Establishment of the rule of law, including (a) All humanity are created equal, (b) Women are equal to men, (c)  Kafirs are equal to Muslims, (d) All humanity regardless of race or color are equal.

Without addressing these issues rigorously, Turkey must not be allowed to join the EU.  In sum, until and unless Turkey denounces the abhorrent commands and teachings of Quran, and turns Islam from a murderous and fascist ideology into a private religion, compatible with modern ethical standard, the EU must not open its door to the Muslim nation. Turkey’s desire to join the EU, however difficult for Europe, also presents the world with a historical opportunity to challenge Islam by calling on Turkey to civilize Islam, which will be blessing for humanity.

---

Jake Neuman is the author of “Islam and Sharia Law Are Treason: Jihad Is Treason” and “Prophet Muhammad (AKA ALLAH): Monster of History” )free download)

Comments (191)Add Comment
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While I totally agree...
written by Kaser , November 16, 2012
... I doubt it's going to happen. Most likely, the EU, already bowing to Islamism, will accept Turkey while putting forth "recommendations" to the Turkish government to reform. You know, meek, weak, timid recommendations... Because we all know how sensitive Muslims are to criticism... We must not offence them.

Seeing uneducated, close-minded die-hard Muslims (the Malem/kope of the world) that stubbornly see the Quran as God's only law for humanity, are in a complete clash with Western societies that gave themselves human laws. And in Turkey, who will oppose the Islamists from taking power? These same fanatics will then cleanse all that opposed them - claiming that opposing an Islamic party is akin to apostasy - and it warrants death?

What's funny is that, for ANY AND ALL intelligent, open-minded humans, the Quran and Sharia are nothing else than man-made laws, drafted 1400 years ago in memory of the life and "teachings" of our pedophile, war-mongering friend Mo.
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written by Reed Wilson. , November 16, 2012
Jake Neuman. All the conditions laid down 1-13 can be accepted. They are not going to make any difference. I also denounce all that.
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written by pedo-ra$ool , November 16, 2012
then it'll cease to be pi$$lam.......haha!!!!!!!!!!!!
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written by theantislamist , November 16, 2012
Admirable ambition but unrealisable. It amounts to total denial of Islam, for a brainwashed population of millions of uneducated people; 97% of Turks claim evolution is false!
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first
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012
Turkey has to admit they genocide 2 millions Armenians.Reinstate the lands stolen,rebuild their churches.Levy heavy taxes on every Turk for one hundred years.Tear down all mosque.Teach their children in schools what crimes were commited in the name of Islam.Return lands to Greece.Check points at the border to Greece for two hundred years.And no world trading for one hundred years.That should be just the start to join EU.
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What about honour killings?
written by Gnostic , November 17, 2012
There are still many honour killings committed every year in Turkey and by turkish people in european countries. The situation of christians in Turkey is very difficult because they are not recognized and they are suffering bureaucratic obstacles to run their business. The same problem is shared by the yesides and other minorities such as the kurds.

Therefore most europeans are against a turkish eu-membership and it will not happen until all european members agree which is very unlikely.
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Jake Neuman
written by kope , November 17, 2012
Accession of Turkey into the EU: A Historic Opportunity for Civilizing Islam
========================

your gutter riligion judaism and christianity is dying , why dont you save your gutter religions?

Jesus died for all our crimenals act

sin is a act of crime agiant one self and toward other person, murder, rape, stealing, lieing, cheating, adultery, gossiping


jesus died for all our crimenals act, past, present and the future, if we accept jesus as savioer all our crimenal record washed away by jesus blood

god does not allow crimenal in heaven without washing our crimenal record first

this irrational teaching of paul making christians to reject god, i dont blame them for rejecting god, i blame on paul and church understanding of god and the rise of atheism in churches.

the absurdity of the paul message forces people to either become anti-logic, or to reject the belief system altogether

you atheist are product of paul and church's teaching not jesus teaching nor rational thinking.

in future internet will kill many religions and science will kill atheism
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Kope
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012
Does sin run genetic through every man`s blood? Is sin our condition?
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...
written by kope , November 17, 2012
sin is a choice
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Kope
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012
If sin is not in the blood.Then we all must put our best foot forward and do good deeds towards every person we meet.Regarless of race and other faith.Good choice Kope?
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...
written by kope , November 17, 2012
i agree with you
0
What is the virtue of faith?
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 17, 2012
> Faith is the commitment of one’s consciousness to beliefs for which one has no sensory evidence or rational proof.
>
> When a man rejects reason as his standard of judgment, only one alternative standard remains to him: his feelings. A mystic is a man who treats his feelings as tools of cognition. Faith is the equation of feeling with knowledge.
>
> To practice the “virtue” of faith, one must be willing to suspend one’s sight and one’s judgment; one must be willing to live with the unintelligible, with that which cannot be conceptualized or integrated into the rest of one’s knowledge, and to induce a trancelike illusion of understanding. One must be willing to repress one’s critical faculty and hold it as one’s guilt; one must be willing to drown any questions that rise in protest—to strangle any trust of reason convulsively seeking to assert its proper function as the protector of one’s life and cognitive integrity.

Rand, Ayn (1964-11-01). The Virtue of Selfishness (Signet) (pp. 29-30). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
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rami
written by kope , November 17, 2012
you reading lot of garbage
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...
written by Betty , November 17, 2012
went right over his head...she was a great Libertarian thinker!
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...
written by kope , November 17, 2012
and you are her follower
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That's the ...
written by Betty , November 17, 2012
typical Muslim reaction...if you don't understand something, condemn it You are the poster BOY for Islam kopey
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Rami
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012
How long is it gona take for human kind to be completely reasonable? ...A.soon.B,centuries from now.orC,never.
0
hahaha
written by Betty , November 17, 2012


"After My date I get a little hostile, I want my goat back wahwah" writes kopey
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...
written by fineliving56 , November 17, 2012
Yes .. it went right over his Muslim head … anyone surprised ?

Look what he reads everyday …. The book of garbage … Quran .

Philosopher Ayn Rand was ahead of her time .

0
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012
written by kope , November 17, 2012
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012

How long is it gona take for human kind to be completely reasonable? ...A.soon.B,centuries from now.orC,never.
======================

today we human are better from our past, we will get better from today

white man is better from before world war 2 and he will be even better after comming civil war amoung between white man
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@ Betty
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 17, 2012
> typical Muslim reaction...if you don't understand something, condemn it You are the poster BOY for Islam kopey

Actually that reaction is typical of how most people anywhere in the world would react to great thinkers. Generally speaking, the further one's views, values, and goals are from reality, the worse they react to great thinkers -- whose views, values, and goals correspond well with reality.

But that is changing. Our cultures are not static. Cultures evolve. Ideas evolve. New memes (analogous to genes) are created -- i.e. variation -- and the unfit memes (analogous to genes) lose out to better memes (analogous to genes) -- i.e. natural and artificial selection.

In this case, the unfit meme is altruism (actually its the whole set of moral knowledge of altruism -- and actually its a memeplex, which is a set of networked memes -- memes that generally go together).

The fit meme, actually memeplex, is Objectivism -- which is the whole set of philosophical and moral knowledge of Objectivism.

Soon altruism will be extinct. Everybody will be an Objectivist.

Another unfit memeplex is the Justified True Belief, the epistemology created by Aristotle and still has to this day 99.9+% penetration in the human population. The fit memeplex is Popperism.

Soon Justified True Belief will be extinct. And everybody will be a Popperian.

And soon after that all evil memes will be extinct.


PS

- Popperism is the philosophy created by Karl Popper. I good source to learn about Popperism is http://fallibleideas.com/knowledge-creation

- And a good source to learn Objectivism is the rest of Elliot Temple's site: http://fallibleideas.com/

- This is where we discuss these ideas and more: http://groups.google.com/group.../subscribe
0
The news is bleak
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012
So far in mans history,Things have gone from bad to worst.It will go from worst to total extinction.Man`s condition dooms him to be an earth bound misfit.
0
...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 17, 2012
kope. I think all religions, which have same source and guidance, are for removal or control over human weaknesses and shortlisting for ultimate success.

قَدْ أَفْلَحَ مَن تَزَكَّىٰ

"He indeed shall be successful who purifies himself".

Purification is getting rid of weaknesses in the light of guidance through the messengers. Allah enumerates the weaknesses and tells how to remove them.

Jews and Christians did receive the message. There are people among them who follow the message and most of ALL OF US follow traditions and set aside the book.

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ لَيْسَتِ النَّصَارَىٰ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ وَقَالَتِ النَّصَارَىٰ لَيْسَتِ الْيَهُودُ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ وَهُمْ يَتْلُونَ الْكِتَابَ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ قَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ مِثْلَ قَوْلِهِمْ ۚ

"And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything good and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything good. Ironically they both recite the Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; 2:113
0
...
written by kope , November 17, 2012
i agree with you

but if they fight we fight if they make peace we make peace
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dead or alive
written by xyz , November 17, 2012
"How long is it gona take for human kind to be completely reasonable? ...A.soon.B,centuries from now.orC,never."

White humans have already achieved intelligence, beauty and most importantly creativity through prefered genes granted by nature/ god.

Colored and blacks as a general are not blessed with beauty and intelligence and
most importantly creativity due to inferior genes.




0
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012
written by kope , November 17, 2012
written by dead or alive , November 17, 2012

So far in mans history,Things have gone from bad to worst.It will go from worst to total extinction.Man`s condition dooms him to be an earth bound misfit.
===============================

you realy dont know human history we are geting better

human used to own slaves not any more


once black people didnt have right to vote in america, now black people kick red neck ass
i can give many example
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dead or alive
written by xyz , November 17, 2012
"So far in mans history,Things have gone from bad to worst.It will go from worst to total extinction.Man`s condition dooms him to be an earth bound misfit."

Until white humans survive ( and they will survive as they are the fittest), beauty, intelligence and creativity will progress.

Best for colored and black humans is to follow white humans to become civilized at
the earliest. For colored and blacks religions and religiously inspired cultures are a big hurdle.
0
xyz
written by Dwito , November 17, 2012
Until white humans survive ( and they will survive as they are the fittest), beauty, intelligence and creativity will progress. ...............................


Sorry to interrupt xyz, you are getting racist. Will you see the light through mirror when the moon is open in the sky? Where from these whits got their praised welth, i.e. the wisdom etc.?
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@ Dead or Alive
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 17, 2012
> So far in mans history,Things have gone from bad to worst.It will go from worst to total extinction.Man`s condition dooms him to be an earth bound misfit.

False. Can you give one example of human civilization getting worse?
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Rami
written by Dwito , November 17, 2012
False. Can you give one example of human civilization getting worse?

So, you mean the expansion of Islam is not a sufficient proof for D or A?
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Roast Turkey
written by Montegue , November 17, 2012
The Europeans do not have a recipe for problematic Turkey, but Americans do, for they roast it in every November.
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Dwito
written by xyz , November 17, 2012
"Sorry to interrupt xyz, you are getting racist"

Nature/ god is racist. Blame them. Nature/ god created tiger and nature / god taught him to kill and eat weaker animal. Similarly big fish will eat small fish as per nature law. Now you may sympathize with poor weaker animal and blame nature/ god for this injustice.

Similarly nature / god created more intelligent, more beautiful and more creative humans and same time created less intelligent, less beautiful and less creative humans.

And similarly nature/ god has created ugly humans and things. Let me give an example. If you want to employ someone for your company, one is white and other is black and both qualify for the job merit vise, 99% chance is that you will employ a white man or a white girl.

As a matter of fact Bollywood is using white girls in every song. What do you say
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xyz pt. I
written by Dwito , November 17, 2012
What do you say


may be a lot. Or very simply- xyz, I really didn't think that you could be so simple, near imbecile. Why don't you practice a logical thinking class under some expert? God didn't create anything less powerful. Mother nature gave ability to all. If someone or something do not employ it's right, that's not the shortfall of nature. that's the shortfall of the individual concerned.
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syz pt. II
written by Dwito , November 17, 2012
Nature/ god is racist.


No. She is not. It is your shortcoming of comprehensibility.

Nature/ god created tiger and nature / god taught him to kill and eat weaker animal. Similarly big fish will eat small fish as per nature law.


Let's take a look in opposite viewpoint.
Suppose there is no weaker animal. All are equally powerful in same respect. How will it be?

There is no mountains or gorges? everything looks alike? no diversity? no winter and no summer? How will your life be in such an environment?

Think my boy! think!
thinking is the most difficult thing in the world, why few men thinks.
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xyz. pt. III
written by Dwito , November 17, 2012
Now come to your point.

Similarly nature / god created more intelligent, more beautiful and more creative humans and same time created less intelligent, less beautiful and less creative humans.


What you meant here is the inequality of ability.
That is a wrong concept. I told it in my first post to you. no one is superior to another. It is the application of ones ability that makes some looks winner and some loser. Nature gave everyone some quality and equally disqualification. It depends to the entity how it use its natural quality that makes the difference.
You are obsessed with white race. Do you know they have a great shortage or disadvantage from mother nature that makes them white? it's called melanin. A biological substance found ambiquitous in nature. Shortage of which makes someone vulnerable to cancer.
the presence of this melanin makes skin looks black. So who are winner, my dear? whom mother nature favored? Sunlight help origine of this Melanin in skin, that's why these whites lay bare on beaches to get sunbath. that is not a fasion my boy. It's an compulsion of nature.
0
...
written by kope , November 17, 2012
one more example human are geting better

europe used to be all white now non white gaining power
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typo
written by Dwito , November 17, 2012
Sorry, the sentence should be read as A biological substance found ubiquitous in nature.
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xyz.
written by Dwito , November 17, 2012
pl. allow me tonight. I'll come up tomorrow to discuss the rest parts.
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012
intiligent came from our human brain

man and woman same brain

what makes one person inteligent and other person uninteligent amoung the same race or skin color?

the person who use brain in a critical thinking manner became inteligent amoung same race or skin color

0
@ Dwito / Dead or Alive
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 18, 2012
> So, you mean the expansion of Islam is not a sufficient proof for D or A?

The expansion of Islam is a side effect of globalization. Globalization is good.
0
xyz
written by kope , November 18, 2012
tell me what the reason some white are inteligent and some white are dumb what cause that?
0
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 18, 2012
written by kope , November 18, 2012
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 18, 2012

> So, you mean the expansion of Islam is not a sufficient proof for D or A?

The expansion of Islam is a side effect of globalization. Globalization is good.
===============================

muslims and non white / non christian came to rebuilt europe after hitler bombed shit out of white people / european countries and killed millions of his own white brothers and sister


also what hitler did was necessary to free non white countries from white colonial empiricism

so hitler was good man

i am hoping one more hitler come and start civil war amoung white people like they did in iraq
0
@ Kope / xyz
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 18, 2012
> tell me what the reason some white are inteligent and some white are dumb what cause that?

Horrible parenting. It causes anti-rational memes to continue to replicate.
0
No soon
written by montegue , November 18, 2012
Hollande may be cheering Turkey to join EU, but there are others besides him. As no one knows what the future will bring, one could foresee that the coming is overshadowing the future of EU, but not in immediate future.

As Cyprus, which Turkey currently sees as its subject, is already a member of the EU, there are yet 8 chapters to be closed with respect to its relation to Cyprus, in addition to Chapter 35 and 10 others. At the meantime, Turkey, who presents itself as a laughing stock, demands for admittance into EU through casual handshake ,without having to close any chapter with Cyprus.

In its attempt to prepare Turkey admittance into the fold, EU so far has donated a large sum of money in bringing it up to some standards, and have not seen the light of any return of investment. As of now, Europe has more to lose than gain with Turkey's membership. Even without it, EU has nothing to lose.

EU is rather fortunate to have seen the true face of AKP, who reflects the general attitude of it populace, through its attempt to extort more money from America at the eve of Iraq War. After which it showed itself drifting apart from its old alliance with the western, undermining Turkey's secularize institutions, and in support of terrorist organization such as Hamas, broke tie with its old ally, Israel. All the dark characters of Turkey have happened soon enough to prevent the irrecoverable damage of its entry. Better yet, Cyprus has embrace Israel as its ally and trade partner, which further put more obstacles to it admittance. It's good enough for now, needless to be over alarmed, Europe can still sleep tight.
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012
white man can never be ally of jews / israel

jews should never forget, it was white man who put jews in gas chamber

if civil war start amoung white people they will first put jews in gas chamber again

who will jews ask to save them from white man ofcaurse muslims
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Montegue
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
Seeing the economic tremors in Greece.Would the EU let Greece collapses?
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012


why does white man say that he support jews / israel ?

because he use jews to fight muslims

he only using jews to fight his enemy islam

but islam is not his enemy

white man enemy is his ego

he is going to destroy himself very soon, white man divided into two groups right wing and left wing

nobody can save him from himself

he spend TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS fighting cave people in afghanistan

something wrong with his brain

0
Rami and Kope
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
I think the idea that there must be more bloodshed now to make a better world tomorrow is not going to work.With mans new found toys of mass destruction, the 20th century is so far the most barbarous of all times.When they say peace and safety,then sudden destruction will rain down on you.
0
dead or alive
written by kope , November 18, 2012


i believe near future we human may face more bloodshed but this is just learning proses finally we human will learned to leave in peace

all religions and all race in hormoney

that is human destiney

for now human go thru hard time
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Kope
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
I personaly would move out of any body way so not to step on their personal progress.What is in the future?Cold heartless commumities.Or perfect people?
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012
two hundread from now human will be almost perfect and they will say people of years 2012 were backward, violent and barbarian

that is human destiney
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Kope
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
Lofty ideas.Till man repairs his major malfunction noting but repeat of history will happen,but only worst still.
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012
you are just looking nagative aspect of human

but human also did positive thing in this earth, we will past this stage and next will be better then this
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...
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
How can good water and bad water flow from the same spring?
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BTW Kope
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
In Islam,The only way to atone for ones sin is the letting of blood from the sinner...right or wrong?
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Greece
written by Montegue , November 18, 2012
dead or alive:
Seeing the economic tremors in Greece.Would the EU let Greece collapses?


If there is any consolation, EU itself is on life support.
0
...
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
I think EU stands but have to shake a few countries and destablei Greece when Turkey is let in.Europe is only a stone throw awy from a major change,They could be Wakeing up tomorrow in a different country.
0
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012

How can good water and bad water flow from the same spring?
===============================

human do good and bad from same brain
0
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012

In Islam,The only way to atone for ones sin is the letting of blood from the sinner...right or wrong?
=======================

in islam if a person did sin he/she must ask the victim for forgiveness first

then ask god to forgive them and never do that sin again

after that god will decide you are really sorry or not
0
Kope
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
So Allah can give permission to shed someones blood?
0
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012

So Allah can give permission to shed someones blood?

=======================

i understand what are you trying to say but i want you to say clearly so we can discus openly
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012
give me an example for someones blood
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Kope
written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012
If the victim rejects my request for forgiveness,Can Allah have me cut to bleed?If i walked up to you and said Jesus Christ is god would i have to bleed?
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012
we will discus tommoro
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Kope
written by xyz , November 18, 2012
"tell me what the reason some white are inteligent and some white are dumb what cause that?"

Kope dear I am not talking about some white. I am talking as a general. Also believe me even a dumb white will be given more respect than a colored or black, this is my experience living in Dubai for 14 years.

A dumb white would be placed on top of colored and blacks due to his skin and nationality. Ask if you have a friend in Dubai .

Also you can compare the white inventors to confirm what I am saying. Almost everything is invented by whites.
0
Dwito
written by xyz , November 18, 2012
Dear Dwito you are confusing diversity with racism.

Humans have identified themselves by their race since creation. Why Brahmans differentiate themselves from other Hindu races? Why Arabs differentiate themselves from non Arab Muslim races. Why British differentiate themselves from other white races. Why Japanese are more intelligent than others like Chinese Thais , Koreans Nepalese , philipinos, etc.

This diversity among humans is called Race. In today's global world the business and corporate sector will employ people as per their particular natural abilities. You will see philipinos working for particular jobs, similarly Indians, Pakistanis are prefered for other particular jobs.

Mostly colored and blacks will be looking for obtaining nationality of a western country and you will not see white people looking for colored or black countries nationality.

Today's world around you is the creation of white humans. From a baby's pamper to space shuttles.
0
Humans have to wake up
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
To achieve harmony in the world in two hundreds years, first { Islam has to be destroyed} because it is the most destructive out of all other religions. People going to realize that in coming years, and all will join in, to dismantling Islam piece by ignorant piece.

It will be destroyed and we are going through this processes right now .. it is not going to be easy, and rivers of blood is going to flow, a lot more of what is happening right now, all over the Islamic world.

People going to realize their Allah, is not going to save them, THEY going to have to do it them selves , for the sack of better lives for their children and all coming generations.

Other religions will be dissolved, eventually and will become the eccentric and harmless thing to do among people .

Humans going to be faced with many different problems outside of their little selves .. ALL people from all over the world, have to get together to try to solve the problems of how to survive living here on this earth ..

Changes have to be made and ALL people have to learn how to get-alone to start helping each others in trying to start healing this ailing earth we are living on.

I was a skeptic of the global worming idea, but after Sandy and the all other most destructive natural disasters that has been happening in a faster pause, we cannot deny it any more ….

That will be the #1 enemy of humanity in the future, after we wake up from concerning ourselves of whether there was a God or not, or IT is angry with us or not

No one WILL care enough after they realize, no amount of prayer will work or have ever worked …No one will care to pray … we will be too busy trying to stay away from shores, and built in land and up word, to avoid sure death by swiped away in the oceans .

The sun's heat and excess water will be our enemy in the next 2 hundred years … History have proved we are slow learners but also proved we eventually WILL learn and spring to action .



0
to fineliving
written by annad , November 18, 2012
I endorse your every word. You very bright very intelligent lady. Good luck to you and yours.
0
written by dead or alive
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by dead or alive , November 18, 2012

===========================
If the victim rejects my request for forgiveness,Can Allah have me cut to bleed?
===========================

even if victim does not forgive you and god find you to be regrettable he will forgive you


=====================

If i walked up to you and said Jesus Christ is god would i have to bleed?
=====================

christians leave with muslims for hundreads of years

and muslims never put then in gas chamber
0
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012

To achieve harmony in the world in two hundreds years, first { Islam has to be destroyed}

=====================

hitler darling tell us how do you going to do that?



0
annad
written by kope , November 18, 2012
written by annad , November 18, 2012

I endorse your every word. You very bright very intelligent lady. Good luck to you and yours.

====================

if you see inteligent in "fineliving" then you need see a psychiatric to evaluate your intelligence
0
annad
written by kope , November 18, 2012
BTW

this is not a threat just suggestion
0
xyz
written by kope , November 18, 2012

written by xyz , November 18, 2012

"tell me what the reason some white are inteligent and some white are dumb what cause that?"

Kope dear I am not talking about some white.

==================


but you said that skin color makes human inteligent so what the reason another white person is dumb?
0
Kope .. how wrong you are ?!
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
It has been said before by many and you kope refuse to pay attention ..

Haven't you realized, yet that, * To call for the destruction of Islam, does not equates the disruption of MUSLIMS people .

I might have used a harsh word, by using the word '' destruction'' I did not mean, by using FORCE it is in fact, I mean to use ** criticism ** and bringing out the real truth of Islam is only way to use.

You seem not to differentiate between the two … your biases and prejudices blocking your mind from understanding this very important issue .

As Rami has been saying, Islam is nothing but bunch of bad ideas and there is nothing wrong or criminal to try to get rid of them and start from new, by using criticism as a tool to reach better understanding as we evolve .

Hitler was a mass killer of Humans [ Jews ] and I am not calling for mass killing by saying destroy Islam .. I am calling for a solution to our Humen existence by criticizes TO SAVE LIVES MUSLIMS AND OTHER WISE .

You seem to forget that MUST OF MY FAMILY ARE STILL MUSLIMS so how can you equates me with Hitler, escape me .

If you read my last post to the end … it would be clear to you, that my aim is peace and harmony between ALL people and killing and force is never inter my mind … remmber I am not a muslimah any more and I evolved to better thinking .

I hope that for you …Kope
0
@ Kope
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 18, 2012
> if you see inteligent in "fineliving" then you need see a psychiatric to evaluate your intelligence

Psychiatrists don't do intelligence tests. Only psychologists do that.

Fineliving is very intelligent. Far more intelligent than you.

Recently you pounced on her words about "destroy Islam". She didn't mean a person killing another person. She meant the same as I meant by unfit memes dying with their hosts when the hosts die. "Destroy" is a bad metaphor for that. Just like all metaphors about fighting, war, battle, etc. are bad metaphors for the evolution of knowledge.
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To xyz
written by Archpagan , November 18, 2012
'Today's world around you is the creation of white humans. From a baby's pamper to space shuttles.'

It really sounds very racist. Till the 1770 CE India and China were the two leading industrial power in the world. By 2030, they might regain that position. Many Americans are now working in Banglalore, the IT hub of India. Recently, Obama has cautioned the American school children that if they do not achieve excellence in Maths, Indians and Chinese will take out all jobs!
0
Rami Rustom
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by This is Rami Rustom , November 18, 2012

> if you see inteligent in "fineliving" then you need see a psychiatric to evaluate your intelligence

Psychiatrists don't do intelligence tests. Only psychologists do that.

Fineliving is very intelligent. Far more intelligent than you.

=====================

sure, you are as inteligent as your atheist darling "Fineliving"
0
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012

It has been said before by many and you kope refuse to pay attention ..

Haven't you realized, yet that, * To call for the destruction of Islam, does not equates the disruption of MUSLIMS people .

======================

hitler darling

you wrote { To achieve harmony in the world in two hundreds years, first { Islam has to be destroyed}

It will be destroyed and we are going through this processes right now .. it is not going to be easy, and rivers of blood is going to flow, a lot more of what is happening right now, all over the Islamic world. }



you did mention "rivers of blood" you are talking about rivers of muslims blood

hail to you hitler
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To the Author
written by Archpagan , November 18, 2012
The idea of civilizing Muslims is as absurd as making the tiger herbivorous.

Recently, I have browsed through the 'Red Book' of Mao Je Dong and I found there some chilling similarity with the method of the Jehadis. It goes like this:

"The enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy stops, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats, we pursue."

In animal planet TV channel, I have seen the predatory animals like tiger, lion and leopard adopt the same tactics against stronger preys like elephant, bison etc.
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I like to clear another point
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
By me saying '' it is not going to be easy, and rivers of blood going to flow ''

I mean to say '' that Muslims going to REact violently, to criticism of Islam, as history proved again and again and what has been happening ..

They [ Muslims] will surely attack us [ non and ex Muslims ] in answer because that all they know how to react, that will be the cause for non Muslims to defend and, they have the right to defend their lives, that will cause to the blood shed I am talking about.

Of course, they are other reasons for blood shed …like Muslims on Muslims, blood shed.



0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012

hitler darling

we all know what is your dirty heart
0
written by Archpagan , November 18, 2012
written by kope , November 18, 2012


written by Archpagan , November 18, 2012

The idea of civilizing Muslims is as absurd

================

what is your solution?
0
@ Kope
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 18, 2012
> sure, you are as inteligent as your atheist darling "Fineliving"

Thank you for the compliment!
0
" Darling Atheist ''
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
Hahaha

I do not describe my self as an atheist … I am more like…. the so called '' agnostic humanist'' …

The reason I have not made that step, is that, we really do not KNOW what is out there for sure we have no proof, yet … because we are still in our beginning stages of understanding our extended world … we are not there, YET

I believe we will .. but then again it is still a believe … the signs are all good to find out what is out there … .. but I hope to live long enough to see it happen ?

All I am saying, is I believe I am agnostic until, it is proven, otherwise by the atheists … and that is OK … what is the harm in doing that … nothing .. I am playing the waiting game .

I have described my self as agnostic humans as '' the children who refuse to let go of their security blanket '' the security blanket, being the Higher something. My son is an atheist and he find my outlook on that subject is humorous .. hahaha

One thing I am sure of, I will go to my grave knowing it is a 100% sure is that ..'' there is No possibility of ALLAH as described in Quran '' … I left Islam BECAUSE of how Quran described Allah as a God … it is embarrassing to say the least .

It is funny how we supposed to believe in A God because A MAN, goes into A CAVE or A ON TOP OF A HILL and comes out with a new religion … never a women … a child … an animal ?!!

Why there was, supposedly, 40 prophets, and they were ALL MEN .. is God is sexiest too ?

I mean wouldn't it be, more believable, if a baby or a sheep ** to start reciting the holy books ?** … why always had to be a MAN … it is fishy, just from looking at it from this angles, by it self.

The words of Quran proved to me, is nothing but a hoax .. and I have read other religious books and I sow problems I do not agree with.

All I care about is for us humans …. to live in happiness and harmony among ourselves … I am hopeful …

Hitting bottom some times is good, because it means there is no way out, but UP .

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kope
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
'' we all know what is your dirty heart ''

Why do you say that ?
0
...
written by kope , November 18, 2012

now you playing innocent

ask yourself to your heart
0
Kope
written by fineliving56 , November 18, 2012
Play innocent ???

So just because I say Quran is full of garbage [ in other posts ] you act like I am guilty of something ?

That is my opinion of Quran[ book], and I have the right to speak it, especially when Quran was the reason of killing and enslaving of millions … I have never invoked violence against MUSLIMS and will never do ?!

So, yes I am guilty of nothing !
0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012


hitler darling

you wrote { To achieve harmony in the world in two hundreds years, first { Islam has to be destroyed}

It will be destroyed and we are going through this processes right now .. it is not going to be easy, and rivers of blood is going to flow, a lot more of what is happening right now, all over the Islamic world. }

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Annad
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
Well, thank you …. for your encouraging words and appreciation .

I just like to say to you [ as all westerner] please, there is hope, Muslims has it in them to change .

I was a Muslimah and I did think like the Muslims you see post here … I was actually a combination of all put together,and look what happened !! ….. well, may be not Kope ..:)

Ex Muslims are being born everyday .. they are in millions now .. I read testimonies in different web site and my heart sings …

All because of the magic of technology that opened doors to new thoughts and ideas .

peace

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Kope
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
Read my post that titles ''

'' I like to clear another point ''

fighting in defense is a RIGHT .
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fineliving56
written by kope , November 19, 2012


you have a big mouth so think twice before you open it

that would save you from hell fire
0
Kope
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
Nothing wrong with of what I posted … you took it the wrong way .

Remember the senseless killing of Muslims on Muslims !? .. No excuse of that, except pure madness .. that will change … after they get tired of seeing blood and destruction everywhere and nothing lift but a piles of rubles and mass graves … then, after that they will wake up and they will only care to live and LET live .

They are going through the same process that America went through it's civil war … American advanced because it set aside all religions and set out to built it self .
0
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
written by kope , November 19, 2012


written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012

Nothing wrong with of what I posted … you took it the wrong way .


==========================


you are a brain dead woman
0
Kope
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
Typical verbel abuse from a Muslims Man's mouth, I expected, and you did not disappoint .

Carry on … Muslim man

0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012

i think you need see a psychiatric
0
kope
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
And you need to be locked up in prison
0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012
but saperateed from you
0
Kope
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
Now, that is funny, coming from a Muslim .. separation of men and women is mandatory in Islam

Alhamid lillah
0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012


separation of men and women is good to keep society pure from sextual immorility

0
He he
written by abc , November 19, 2012
"Humans have to wake up"
The wicked witch of the west looks into her bubbling pot and this is what she sees.
Does Dorothy get crushed by a house in your world?
0
Wrong .. totally … wrong
written by fineliving56 , November 19, 2012
Total separation of men and women in islam, created this mess :

---- molesting of little boys [ see Saudi Arabia ] ,

----- vast speared of lesbianism [ see Saudi Arabia and most islamic lands ]

---- dancing little boys [ see Afghanistan and Pakistan ]

----- Speared of bad public behavior by frustrated Muslims man who fallow unsuspecting women in streets to touch them in privets even the covered women do not escape there filthy hands ] due to their inability to afford a wife and absolute separation [ see ALL muslim countries ] . .

I support caution in the mix of the sexes .. but the way Muslims do it, it had bad results then good .. you do not know what you are talking about.

Morality does not come by force when it does being force, Morality goes out of the window .

I Know a women doctor back home who had a waiting lists to '' repair virginally hymen '' for brides how are everything but virgins, to save face .. all in the cause of separation .

There is a saying '' al mamno'a margoob '' … anything is prevented is more wanted ''

Muhammad created sex monsters instead of moral people … Muslim men are the furthest of any morality … it sicking ..

you sound naive and too young to know what is really happening in the Islamic world … yes The west has a lot of problems … but the East has a lot worse .

Morally and otherwise .
0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012


you need to study what immorality doing to western society

0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012

the reason islam is spreading in the west because western people became sick of immorility

so they turn to islam to lives moral life
0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012


soon islam will take over the west because of immorality
0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012


you fighting with muslims is just waste of energy

you should be teaching western people about immorality does to society

that would stop spreading of islam in west
0
...
written by kope , November 19, 2012

have you read my blog?

http://hfghj23458654fgha.xanga.com/
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EVERYONE IS LIVING IN LALA-LAND = DREAMLAND FACT IS ISLAM IS DEATH AND DESTRUCTION RELIGION CANT BE SECULARISED OR MODERNISED.
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROOON , November 19, 2012
EVERYONE IS LIVING IN LALA-LAND = DREAMLAND FACT IS ISLAM IS DEATH AND DESTRUCTION RELIGION CANT BE SECULARISED OR MODERNISED.
0
Kopey - Have you read my blog
written by Infidel and More Proud , November 19, 2012
Yes I saw your relatives.
You are a pervertZ who Suffers from small cox gomplex..
0
Kope
written by Kaser , November 19, 2012
You said:
"soon islam will take over the west because of immorality"
You mean the west is immoral Kope?

Islam allows old pedophiles to marry pre-pubescent girls... This is the morality Islam will bring to the west?
Islam allows Muslims to kill apostates...This is the morality Islam will bring to the west?
Islam allows mi-treatment of non-Muslims... This is the morality Islam will bring to the west?
Islam preaches women are weak of intelligence...This is the morality Islam will bring to the west?
0
re: Kope
written by Gnostic , November 19, 2012
Morality in the west? Oh, no! Do you really believe that there is more morality in religious societies?

It is an illusion to think that religion makes people really better. The opposite might be true.

There are statistics that almost 100% of women in Egypt have suffered from sexual harassment and prostitution - forbidden or not - is widespread even in religious countries such as Afghanistan or Pakistan.

The lack of sexual education under islamic rules also causes many problems.

What people really need is better education and jobs, access to health care, electricity, water supply and sanitation.

Does the quran teach such things? No, instead islam teaches to pray for rain and anything. Then people pray and then they think they have done enough!

Or they beat their wifes because it is written in the quran.

Is this morality?

Muslims have began to chase the unmarried women of syrian refugees in the expectation of lower dowries from these poor and troubled people.

Religion does not make people better.


0
Gnostic
written by Malem , November 20, 2012
Where did you pull that statistic from that 100% of women in Egypt have suffered sexual harrassment and prostitution? Sound to me like a heap of camel dung lad. You really need to think about what your saying before it comes out of your yapper. Where does the Quran teach about "praying for rain" I must have missed that one as well. Does the Quran tell people to beat their wives? Again you are just making this stuff up as you go along. So before you go about on your Egypt bashing and Quran bashing tyraid you might want to use some real facts and not the made up items as above. Since you are a westerner what you have done is prove that you cannot tell the truth and must lie about things you dont understand, typical
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 20, 2012
Hey, what about those gems Malem:

Islam allows old pedophiles to marry pre-pubescent girls...
Islam allows Muslims to kill apostates...
Islam allows mi-treatment of non-Muslims...
Islam preaches women are weak of intelligence...

Now, are you going to ask where I took these verses? I can help you find them in the Quran if you cannot.
Now, are you going to tell me I need to read the whole Surah? I did.
Now, are you going to tell me I cherry-pick? I totally do, like violent Muslims do in the name of YOUR religion.
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response to fineliving question
written by Yibel , November 20, 2012
"Why there was, supposedly, 40 prophets, and they were ALL MEN .. is God is sexiest too ?"

The Bible records the following women prophets in the Old Testament:
1. Miriam, sister of Moses
2. Deborah
3. Huldah
4. Noadiah
5. Isaiah's wife

and in the New Testament:
6. Anna
7. The Daughters of Phillip

In addition, other women in scripture also prophesied, but were not expressly described as prophesying. These women include: Rachel (Gen. 30:24), Hannah (1 Sam. 2:1-10), Abigail (1 Samuel 25:29-31), Elisabeth (Luke 1:41-45), and Mary/Miriam, the mother of Yah'shua/Jesus (Luke 1:46-55).

Just like a prophet, a prophetess is a person called by YHVH. A prophet (male or female) is the mouthpiece for the one who sends him or her; the prophet speaks on behalf of the sender (Exodus 7:1-2). A prophet is considered a seer (1 Samuel 9:9), because YHVH gives him or her the gift of foreknowledge. YHVH reveals his secrets to prophets (Amos 3:7), and true prophesy is initiated by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11.
0
re: Malem
written by Gnostic , November 20, 2012
1. I wrote almost 100% and statistics confirm something around 90%! I am quiete convinced that gender separation in islamic societies causes such striking numbers.

Quote:

A study was recently conducted by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights in 2008, covering some 1,010 women, both foreigners and native Egyptians. According to the results it appears that 98% of foreign women and 83% of Egyptian women were subjected to some form of sexual harassment.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/puls...z2ChSO5DAn

I think many women are even to shy to admit that they were harassed!



2. I did not write that 100% of women suffer from prostituition but that prostitution is widespread in islamic countries. This is true. Forbidden or not it takes place because there is a market for it everywhere in the world. In shia communities it is almost legal in the shape of short lived marriages while other people are selling their children at minor ages to people with money.


Many housemaids are lover as well and the right of a muslim man to marry up to 4 wives is no better.

3. The quran teaches that wife beating is legal "if necessary"-

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
0
Jake
written by abc , November 20, 2012
Turkey does not need the European union.
It is thriving all by itself.
I simple lesson in economics will tell you that Europe needs turkey!
0
Turkey?
written by Gnostic , November 20, 2012
Erdogan just recently called Israel a terrorist state! While I hate any violence we all must admit that the HAMAS was launching rockets first.

And Turkey is even worse: They do not admit the genocide against the armenians and the they are still supressing the kurds and they are also shooting back against Syria.

It is all propaganda!
0
abc
written by Kaser , November 20, 2012
I think Turkey has more to gain by joining the EU. It gives them credibility.
Right now, I believe they are sliding into extremism. Like Egypt.

0
abc, take 2
written by Kaser , November 20, 2012
But abc, let's assume for a minute its Turkey that desperately wants to join the EU.
Do you think Jake's recommendations make sense and do you think Turkey would abide by them?
0
Yibel
written by fineliving56 , November 20, 2012
Thank you on the prophets and prophetats, names list in the Bible …

The bible might have talked about women prophets, but the Quran DID NOT … there were mention to 25 MALE prophets only names :

Adam [ 25 ]... idris [2] ...Noah [ 43 ]... hod [7] ...saleh [ 9]... abraham [ 69] ...lut [27 ]... ismail [ 12 …Isaac [ 17 ] ...yaqib.[ 16 ] ...Yusuf [ 27] ...Ayyub [ 4] ...Shoab [11] ...Muses ] 136] ...Haron [ 20] ...Doud-Kifi [2] ...Daod[ 16] ...Sulayman [17] ...llyas [ 2] ...Al yass [ 2] ...Yunus [4] ...Zakariya [ 7] ...Yahya [ 5] ...Isa [ 25] ...Muhammad[ 5] .

Allah did not think a half a brain women, would be suitable to be prohetats … Allah is too stupid to know that is not true .

Yible … even due, there was mention of women prophets in Bible old and new, they still, were not the main Rusul [ prophets ] who brought Gods teaching to us [ supposedly ]

Jesus was a man … Muses was a Man …. Muhammad was a man … these are the most important prophets who, either, went into cave or hill and came out, with a new religion ..

Non of them was a women or any other creature …. and THAT was, what I was talking about

Why there was no women prophets, out of those three ?

I asked Allah this question … he has not answered, yet ?

As soon as, Allah tells me, I will relate what he says about his apparent descriptive treatment of women …
,
So far, Allah's silence is suspicious !… do you think he is Not even there ? … :)

0
Kaser
written by abc , November 20, 2012
Credability? In what way?
It's a simple equation kaser. As the EU population ages and retires. They will have many more years to live. The combined pension pots are not big enough. So how will we pay for people's retirement, these people that have worked all their life and paid taxes. Option one is to make everybody work longer.
As this is happening there is a declining work force to work and pay taxes to finance pension pots via tax revenue.
The solution is to increase your young workforce.
Turkey has an abundant young workforce.
The EU will need turkey to balance the books.
0
ABC
written by Malem , November 20, 2012
Correct, Turkey is the EU's Check! Germany is tired of paying for all of the promised pensions in the EU. They should have left the Euro behind years ago, now they are stuck. So their solution is to bring in Turkey with promises and instead will drain them. Turkey should stay where they are, a wonderful, healthy economy without having to provide for countries who still wont face the fact they are broke.

Fineliving, the Quran does mention Female "prophets" the difference was they were not provided scripture to teach but non the less were very important in Islam, like the Mother of Esa, the Mother of Musa, Mai Hajirah the wife of Ibrahim, Fatima daughter of Muhammed pbuh. So there were "perfect" women mnetioned in the Quran. Remember Allah delivered divine messaging to Prophets, Messengers and Saints. You will need to read the Quran to understand the differences
0
abc
written by Kaser , November 20, 2012
Your point makes a lot of sense - all developed nations face this aging population - look at Japan.
Same thing where I live, there will be a drastic drain in the workforce when the baby-boomers retire.
But I still think Turkey desperatley wants to join to be in the EU club.
It might improve trade (exports) and give it access to new funding opportunities.
It might encourage companies to set-up shop there.
BUT it might have to pay for faltering economies like Greece, and Spain?
0
Malem
written by Kaser , November 20, 2012
You conveniently avoid answering my questions above.
Are you unable to face them? Do they paint you in a corner?

abc, I have respect for him - we may not agree, but he is frank and direct. We are able to discuss.

So how about it Malem, what about my questions above?
0
Kaser
written by Malem , November 20, 2012
Kaser, those were not questions above those were your stated opinions. Questions end in a question mark, and those were remarks about your own opinions of Islam. Now if youd like me to opine on them I can surely do that lad. They are false. Now should you have an actual question, then ask away lad no one is stopping you.
0
response to fineliving56, part one
written by Yibel , November 20, 2012
I understand your point, and it is well taken. However, Muhammad made up this whole Allah thing. If there ever was any such creature that sent a message to Muhammad, IT was a demon called Lucifer (among other things) in the Bible.

As for Muhammad's list of prophets, most of them were NOT prophets:
Adam NO... idris NO, but also an unknown person...Noah NO.. hod NO, but also an unknown person...saleh NO, but also an unknown person...abraham (actually Ibraheem, also an unknown person) NO ...lut NO... ismail NO …Isaac NO ...yaqib NO ...Yusuf NO...Ayyub NO...Shoab NO, but also an unknown person ...Muses NO (Biblical Moses YES) ...Haron NO...Doud-Kifi NO, but also an unknown person...Daod NO...Sulayman NO ...llyas NO...Al yass NO ...Yunus/Dhul-Nun NO (Biblical Jonah YES) ...Zakariya NO ...Yahya NO ...Isa NO, but also an unknown person... (Yah'shua/Jesus YES)...Muhammad - A BIG FAT NOOOO!

Muhammad did not know what prophets were because he did not know very much about the Hebrews (or the Jews) and their history. He was a desert Arab with very little knowledge of anything. He made up stories about people whose names he had heard - probably on the caravan trail. Muhammad even has HIS Musa (Moses) say to the Hebrew people that they had killed the prophets!

Well, there were NO prophets before Moses. Biblical Moses was the FIRST prophet; therefore, NO PROPHETS were killed - by ANYONE! Muhammad's Musa even says "You, Jews, killed the prophets" Well, guess what? There were NO Jews in Moses day, either. The tribe of Judah (one of the Hebrew tribes) had only been in existence for 400 years during which time there were NO prophets. Muhammad was a VERY, VERY ignorant person!!
0
Kaser
written by abc , November 20, 2012
No doubt there are wonderful things in the eu that turkey lacks.
Airforce, navy and other military tech. It can either stay out of the eu and buy the tech in like the "ignorant" Arab leaders.
Or it uses it's workforce in combination with eu to develop joint projects.
Who knows one day turkish workers and scientists working on a euro fighter upgrade.

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part two
written by Yibel , November 20, 2012
"Jesus was a man … Muses was a Man …. Muhammad was a man … these are the most important prophets who, either, went into cave or hill and came out, with a new religion .. "

Muhammad may have spent some time in a cave where he was attacked by something which scared him nearly to death according to the aHadith - after which he decided to commit suicide. However, Yah'shua/ Jesus never went into any caves, and neither did Moses.

Also, Yah/shua did not create a new religion - he taught the same religion as Moses, as did all the other prophets (navi) in the Bible.

A prophet (navi) is both an agent of YHVH - sent to bring a message to an inimical people - and an advocate for those same people. He/she is the one who pleads with YHVH to spare his people. The true prophet prays on behalf of YHVH's errant people. The prophet is distressed and filled with both sadness and anger (in Hebrew, va-yihar) at the behavior of the people. He pleds with YHVH to spare his people even though they do not deserve redemption according to strict justice. YHVH is a personal God who is interested in each individual's destiny.
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Muhammad was not a prophet, part three
written by Yibel , November 21, 2012
Muhammad displays none of this concern or care for those who do not wish to join his cult. He makes no attempt to argue on their behalf or ask for forgiveness for what he perceives as wrong doing. Muhammad's god is vengeful and mean spirited. His cruelty knows no bounds! He deliberately creates beings (men and jinn) who will not join Muhammad's cult just so he can fill His hell with them and torture them forever.

Muhammad was attempting to revive the old Mesopotamian cultic religion of Marduk, the god who created mankind from Clots of Blood; Nabu/Nebo, the one who taught man to write; Malik/Molech, the god of Hell and Fire (see Surah 96, Muhammad first revelation) and Sin/Ah, the moon god of Ur and Haran. And create a warrior cult to spread this Mesopotamian slave cult throughout the world, with Arabs as the top dogs.

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Malem
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
Malem,

Do you believe Islam allows marriage to pre-pubescent girls?
If not, then why recommend a waiting period after intercourse when no menstruation were present?

Do you believe Islam allows Muslims to kill apostates?
If not, then why so many Muslims do - including our friend Anjem Choudary, publicly?
Why is he not outcast by Muslims in the UK for being a fraud?

Do you believe Islam allows mis-treatment of non-Muslims ?
If not then why are Boko Haram, Ansar Dine, Al-Shabaab and company persecuting non-Muslims all over?

Do you believe Islam preaches women are weak of intelligence ?
Then why are the Taliban so vehemently against them being educated?
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Kaser
written by Malem , November 21, 2012
You should really number your questions. 1) The quran says no such thing as to marrying pre-pubescent girls 2) The Quran directs no one to kill innocence people whether muslim or not, killing is only aloud in self defense. 3) What is mis-treatment? There is nothing in the Quran that say to mistreat anyone, there is no compulsion in Islam. 4) No, both my wives are PHD's from Western universities. and local.

As for your questions about Choudary, Ansar , Taliban, etc.. Your guess is as good as mine, I can only tell you their behavior is not in any Islamic.
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Child brides
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
Another disturbing statistic about Turkey's social fabric.
http://www.todayszaman.com/new...stat.html

Can we expect this to increase as Islamism takes hold?
Actually, what risks not increasing is the average age girls get married... This will likely drop further...
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Bad link above
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
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Malmans PHDS
written by Infidel and More Proud , November 21, 2012
WTF are you doing there when your wives have multiple PHDs from local and western UNIs.
You ought to file for Nobel prize...

Are those phds in sperm gushes from kidneys or spine and Moh split moon in half by pinting his finger.
Maybe the are in orgion and extintion of Buraq.
You suffer from inferiorty complex so keep bringing your wives into this site to improve your strature.
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Infidel and more dumb
written by Malem , November 21, 2012
Good to see your still around, having some imbeciles like yourself, makes for some laughs. Kaaser asked about not educating women in Islam and as usual I corrected him and showed him he was wrong. I am starting to wonder if they educate men there, especially based on your literary wonders. Dont worry lad one day you will have a wife, albeit she will likely have an adams apple and a beard, you will have one all the same.
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
You educated me???? Ain't you the funny man!

Just for fun Malem, you say the Quran does not "say such things as marrying pre-pubescent girls".
Then why does your Quran recommend a three-month waiting period before divorcing a wife that does not yet have her monthly course?

But Malem, I'm sure you have a snappy response to this one also.
Snappy, but a usual, devoid of any proof other than "you say it's so"...
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Marriage
written by Infidel and More Proud , November 21, 2012
Malman I am waiting for your daughter to turn six.
I can thigh her before innit.
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Infidel
written by Malem , November 21, 2012
You must be such a tough man to attack a young girl. It says a lot about you and your posts. You are the shining symbol of the class of idiots who post such things! Your mommy must be proud.

Kaser the Quran does not say pre-pubescent anywhere, you are lying lad, tsk tsk tsk
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
?!??!?
Are you insane Malem?
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
Quran 65:4 - read it Malem, just in case it's not fresh in your head.

As a Muslim, I WOULD UNCONDITIONALLY consider this Allah's OK to marry and have sex with a girl that does not have her period yet, since he tells me to wait three months after the last sexual relation before divorcing her.

Now Malem, if you are not completely insane, you will agree that a girl "without any periods yet" is completely prepubescent. Read this old man:

From Wikipedia:
"On average, girls begin puberty at ages 10-11; boys at ages 11-12.[1][2][3] Girls usually complete puberty by ages 15–17,[3][4][5] while boys usually complete puberty by ages 16–17.[3][4][6] The major landmark of puberty for females is menarche, the onset of menstruation, which occurs on average between ages 12-13;[7][8][9][10] "

You were saying again that your beloved Quran does not allow sex with prepubescent girls Malem - girls aged in average 12 or 13 years old?

Are you insane or just an average hypocrite?
0
...
written by kope , November 21, 2012
mostly white man involved in pedophiles

just watch news

even white prists funck children
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kaser
written by malem , November 21, 2012
While I realize your a complete moron, ill try to answer your question anyway. 65:4 does not say pre pubescent anywhere, so you lied. Secondly it is translated As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.
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kope
written by chipmunk , November 21, 2012
white man can never be ally of jews / israel

jews should never forget, it was white man who put jews in gas chamber.


Hitler's DNA is E1b1b A Jewish - African heritage with S. European add mixture. Hitler was an ally of Turkey ,Egypt and Palestine . Over 400,000 muslims served in the Nazi military. Thousands of Nazi's fled to the ME and lived the rest of their lives and worked in the islamic world.
Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini had an office in Berlin and had plans with Himmler to build a concentration camp in Palestine .

Baurnann, Johann
SS Standartenuhrer
Participated in liquidation of Jewish Warsaw ghetto
Minister of War in Cairo. Instructor for the FLP (Liberation Front of Palestine)

Farmbacher, Wilhelm
SS Lieutenant-General
Wehrmacht Eastern Front, Supervisor of Vlassov Army in France in 1944
Military consultant for Egyptian President Nasser.

Heiden, Ludwig
Post-war name: El Hadj
Journalist for anti-jewish agency Weltdienst (NSDAP)
Converted to Islam. Translator of Mein Kampf into Arabic. Lived in Egypt in the 1950’s.

Von Leers, Dr Johannes
Post-war name: Omar Amin
Goebbels’ assistant, in charge of antisemitic propaganda.
In Egypt, he was in charge of anti-israeli propaganda in Cairo since 1955.

The list is endless.
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again
written by chipmunk , November 21, 2012
kope , November 21, 2012
mostly white man involved in pedophiles

just watch news.

Again not true.
1. race per capita
2. Blacks tend to rape family members who seldom report it.
3. child pornography and prostitution isn't prosecuted in Asian countries
4. between 1.6 - 3.9 million girls under the age of 12 have been forced into marriage in muslim countries .
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...
written by chipmunk , November 21, 2012
Malem ,

"Kaser the Quran does not say pre-pubescent anywhere, you are lying lad, tsk tsk tsk"

Yes because the arabic written language was barely formed at the time the quran was written. But the fact remains muhammad married a 6 year old. That is pedophilia .

And muslim countries reflect that fact by claiming it is in the quran and allowi old men to marry little girls. As Egypt ,Iraq,Pakistan,Sudan,Turkey and Afghanistan do. Laws mean nothing if they aren't enforced.
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malem
written by chipmunk , November 21, 2012
I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammed! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill,assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).


Qur’an 2:190 - Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior and Islam is propagated. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.


Qur’an 33:26 - Allah made the the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.

Qur’an 8:12 - Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.

Qur’an 8:59 - The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.

Sura 9:5 :
"Then, when the months made unlawful for fighting expire, kill the mushriks [polytheists] wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, establish Salat and pay the Zakat dues, then let them go their way. (Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 2, p. 175)


Yassir Barhami a Salafist Egyptian cleric and member of the Constituent Assembly tasked with drafting Egypt’s new constitution has said :
“It is permissible for the girl at the age of 9 to marry.”
The cleric cited the Qur’an and Islamic law as proof.
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chipmunk
written by kope , November 21, 2012


written by chipmunk , November 21, 2012

kope , November 21, 2012
mostly white man involved in pedophiles

just watch news.

Again not true.
1. race per capita
2. Blacks tend to rape family members who seldom report it.
3. child pornography and prostitution isn't prosecuted in Asian countries
4. between 1.6 - 3.9 million girls under the age of 12 have been forced into marriage in muslim countries .
===================

incest and pedophiles is white man culture

just watch news


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chipmunk
written by kope , November 21, 2012


you white will put jews in gas chamber

they desever it
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chipmunk
written by malem , November 21, 2012
Shouldn't you be busy gathering nuts for the cold season the west? You should start with collecting kaser and infidel :)
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Malem the apologist - and all visitors.
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
Malem's answer above about Surah 65:4:
"...While I realize your a complete moron, ill try to answer your question anyway. 65:4 does not say pre pubescent anywhere, so you lied. Secondly it is translated As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth..."

Now readers, notice there are three categories of women in all three translations below. I split the three definitions by putting in Bold separation of the categories and I underlined where they repeat the prescribed waiting period.

-Non-menstruating (or Menopaused) women.
-Not-yet menstruating women.
-Pregnant women.

It's painfully obvious that the men who wrote the Quran wanted to cover all cases where NO menstruation are present: Prepubescent, Menopaused and pregnant.

Malem IS OK with his "holy book" advocating sex with "not yet menstruating" girls.

Quran 065.004

YUSUFALI: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

PICKTHAL: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.
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Kaser
written by Malem , November 21, 2012
Does it say the word(s) "Pre-Pubescent"? NO, it does not, and you are proving to be a moron more and more lad. I realize you have to depend on wiki and google for all your knowledge and it must be tough for you. If you only read what you are talkign about it would be easier. By the way this posting was about Turkey, you are tryign to hijack it like usual jahsh
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Kaser
written by abc , November 21, 2012
Behave yourself! Your entire case rests on one word and how it's interpreted.
Islamic scholars and learned that "Lam Yahidna" negates menstruation in the past tense and the jussive mode and means "did not menstruate," with the expectation that the woman should be menstruating, since that natural cycle is part of her normal state.
Hence the pre pubescent argument is negated.

Ask our resident Arab mentalist Fineliving!
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To all, case in point
written by Kaser , November 21, 2012
Thank you Malem.
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Malmans nuts
written by Infidel and More Proud , November 21, 2012
Obviusly you lost yours long ago only if you had any...
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KOPEY incent
written by Infidel and More Proud , November 21, 2012
Kopy maximum in cest happens within muslims.
Inbreeding is allowed (marriage in close blood relations) by Allah and one can marry daughter in law (remember Mohallah)
Need we say more except you will have your snout buried in dirt.
Remeber allah will turn white faces to black but what happens to black faces. They remain black so no chance of your redeption. A black face like yours will remain black hence you are liable for Allahs punishment.
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Infidumb
written by Malem , November 21, 2012
Should you be stuffing your Turkey lad? or does the man of the house handle that? Good luck celebrating your indian genocide, real classy you westerners arent you!
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Lam Yahidna …. is NOT lan Yahidna … there is big difference
written by fineliving56 , November 22, 2012
Have been discussed before in length before ..

I have explained … Lam Yahidna as it came in Quran meant as ,'' the girls who did not have their flox Yet …

Lam, is used to convey negative for the ** PRESENT ** and WILL HAPPEN, LATER ** …

Lan, is used to convey negative for ** ONLY THE FUTURE **

So … as we all know Quran said '' Lam '' WAS USED IN THE QURAN … so it means that Quran meant '' girls who are presently, NOT did not have their monthly flux yet and WILL in the future ''

Muslims here who want to li@ are not going to succeed … I will not get tired of pointing out the li@es .

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Fineliving
written by Malem , November 22, 2012
Maybe you should watch others who lie as well!

Hateit Sawaabi fi alshq min lkaddabiin dool
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abc
written by Kaser , November 22, 2012
Thanks, coming from you has more weight than Malem's usual drivel.

But abc, the problems lies just there. You are educated and obviously a notch above the average biped in terms of intelligence.

While Malem keeps talking about the pure word of god and "Allah" being the most perfect of communicators, Muslims are still world-leaders in child-marriages because Muslims that desire young girls will interpret the 65:4 surah EXACTLY like I do because it is open for such interpretation.

If the Quran, as you claim, does not advocate having sex with pre-menstrual girls - like your prophet indulged in - then REWRITE the damn book to make it clear.
The Islamic Scholars are cowards, and do not correct and clarify the Quran, a man-made book, based on their retarded belief that it is the pure word of god himself and therefore modifiable.

As long as this fantasy dream is maintained, there will be no progress. But wait - as if religions have anything to do with progress!!!

But abc, I have one question for you. You know I am a man of science and an atheist.
What about you: Do you believe that the Quran is the pure word of god, or that the Quran is nothing else than man-made scriptures?

You are posting anonymously here, what about it abc? You are more progressive than Malem, and certainly less of an Hypocrite.
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Fineliving !!!
written by Kaser , November 22, 2012
I'm looking forward to your interpretation of Surah 65:4.

Please enlighten us. Does it authorize sex with girls NOT YET menstruating?

If not, then why is it rampant in Islamic countries - like Turkey?
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Malam
written by fineliving56 , November 22, 2012
You speak a slang Egyptian … funny and you tell me I speak slang …

This is my PROPER Arabic words for you ..

Anta lan tangah fi al mudafa'ah ala kitabaka al Quran … Haza al kitab huwa laysa illa kitabaan sayi'aan la yaslah lilqira'a .

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Fineliving
written by abc , November 22, 2012
Agreed that the LAM is a negatatory lam.
But it is also in a jussive mode. Look it up!
Hence it means that the underlying assumption is that women in their natural state are able to menses. Hence it cannot apply to a prepubescent child.
Read below how the jussive verb works.
"A present tense imperfect verb fiʿil mudāriʿ (فعل مضارع) may be found in one of three grammatical moods: the indicative, the subjunctive and the jussive. In traditional Arabic grammar these verb moods are known as marfūʿ  (مرفوع), manṣūb (منصوب) and majzūm (مجزوم), and each mark the verb with a different vowelized ending. If a verb is unmodified then it will be in the indicative mood marfūʿ  (مرفوع). Depending on context, a verb may also be found in either the subjunctive or the jussive moods. Note that mood is only applicable to imperfect verbs and not perfect verbs fiʿil māḍ (فعل ماض)."
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Fineliving
written by abc , November 22, 2012
Instead of reading it like a novel.
Do the "tarkeeb" upon the sentence and break it down!
You will realise what I am talking about.
This is easy for you!
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Fineliving
written by abc , November 22, 2012
So … as we all know Quran said '' Lam '' WAS USED IN THE QURAN … so it means that Quran meant '' girls who are presently, NOT did not have their monthly flux yet and WILL in the future ''


The lam is negatory only and dives not apply to a time line.
It applies to present NOT past/future.
Get a grammatical grip will you!
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kaser
written by abc , November 22, 2012
"You are posting anonymously here, what about it abc?"
My background is that g'dad came from india as an economic refugee. Got easy entry as he served in the british army.
Dad was born in blighty and married a local of Irish bloodline. I assume you are american as you used the term "babyboomer" once, so i am a "molato". I grew up around people with roasary beads and tasbeehs, from hail marys to Allah Hu Akbar. Up until about 5 years ago i lived the life of a non muslim. So at best you can describe me as a student of islam. I can only give you MY perspective and i speak fore no other.
Islam has hads some of the finest minds as scholars and it has unfortunately had some complete cretins as scholars too.
It has had some of the most just leaders to some genocidal maniacs.
Just like any other religion.
So when i read a book on islam i look at whom wrote it and where was this information coming from. Culture has seeped into the writings of islam too. A book can be a pakistanised or arabised version and therefore all credability is lost.
Islama and local culture must be seperated at all cost. There are many muslim academics around the world now relooking at the books of old and asking questions as to their veracity. This process is happening but very slowly unfortunately.
Muslim scholar with western academia methods which muslims did posess and lost are re examining texts and putting valid opinions outhere. Its a process of seperating the wheat from the chaff.
0
kaser
written by abc , November 22, 2012
Let me indulge you with a story.
It is rumored that a long time ago the king of spain had a lisp and his courtiers used to laugh at him. Until one day the kig found out and threatened to kill them all and decreed that everybody must speak like him. Now you have every spaniard speak with a lisp even though they do no have any speach impediments. Weird no?
Now lets say an islamic leader wanted to so something unislamic, he could easily force an local scholar to "bend the rule".
Not only has the leader got what he wants but the public have it too.
This is why you have a pakistani, arab, indian, etc versions of the one faith.
You have to go back to the roots to appreciate the fruits. "don king said that"
The arabs had their chance and blew it. I predict that the reniessance of islam will come from the WEST.
How ironic is that.
0
abc
written by Kaser , November 22, 2012
Very interesting point of view abc - thank you for having taken the time to write and share this!
I'm sure you and I could have an interesting chat over a pint of beer (well, tea for you!).

You definitively have a unique perspective due to your "choosing" Islam versus Malem-types that were born into it and never knew anything else. They cannot quit because of the fear of being branded an apostate - with all that it entails.
You have a very different frame of reference. You give more credibility to a reformed Islam than any Muslim "born in the cult"
I wish you well and hope that your forward-thinking views will spread - "god" knows the world needs it.

Indeed you are right, Islam is not unique in it's ability to spawn heroes and zeroes.
But right now, it's lagging way way behind the curve compared to ideologies and morals of modern cultures. You are SO right in stating that any religion must be separated from the governments - quite the contrary to the "Arab spring" which will amount to nothing good.

I now understand better your contempt for Saudi Arabia and the likes - and I fully agree with you.

For my part, I am condemned to the cold hard truth of my scientific mind. Both through my work as an engineer and a business owner, but also through extensive reading on fascinating subjects such as astronomy, medicine, geology, physics and so on. When I open the television, it's always on science channels and documentaries.
I say "condemned" purposefully - because, many years ago, still a believing christian, I felt the pseudo-warmth of thinking there is a loving supreme being, heaven and hell and the promise of eternal paradise should I live a "good" life. But analysis and reason shows this is not the case - hence death becomes an unknown rather than a pending reward... I have to deal with this, and I do. I will not run to religion to appease myself.
...continued...

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abc
written by Kaser , November 22, 2012
...continued...
FYI, my father passed away a few years back - I will never see him again in "heaven". I hope I'm wrong, but I know I'm right. My grandfather emigrated to America turn of the 20th century and pretty much abandoned religion outright. My father believed, so does my mother, but were not practicing - already my society was pushing religion out the door in the 60's and 70's. Now, religion over here is almost non-existant, for the better.

So, abc, you see I still believe that any and all religions must fall, or at least, as you say, get "reborn" as simple ideologies that are curiosities at best.
But can they ever be made to undo the damage that they have caused, and still cause to this day? Nope.

But if we, as a race, stop believing in a paradise promised by a "god"- a "god" that tells us we believers are good, and others are bad - we just might start working to fix all that is wrong in the world currently. Religions are of NO HELP whatsoever in dealing with the major problems we face on our planet. This pisses me off.

Regarding scriptures, there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that the Quran is simply an attempt, by mortal men, to write down what the Prophet conjured-up to suit his needs at the time he conjured them up. These men then tried to formulate a coherent book based on an incoherent man's life and directives. A hard task at best. That they categorized it as the pure unquestionable word of god makes sense, they did not want it questioned continuously...

And you are probably right, Islam will get a spanking from the west, youth, and women. Just watch them.
How many Muslim women were horrified by the 14-yr old Pakistani girl shot by the Taliban for wanting an education?

They were horrified, as the world was, and it was obviously religion-induced.

Malem can claim it was not religion at the heart of this attack, but he knows better. He denies it, but he knows better.
Like he knows the Boko-haram, Ansar Dine, Al-Shabaab and other groups COMPULSIVELY spread Islam by force.
(Malem - you can still call me a moron if it amuses you... I'm ok with it really)

Thanks abc, looking forward to reading more of your posts in this forum.
0
abc - posting a second time "part 2" - admin snatched the other one...
written by Kaser , November 22, 2012
...continued...
FYI, my father passed away a few years back - I will never see him again in "heaven". I hope I'm wrong, but I know I'm right. My grandfather emigrated to America turn of the 20th century and pretty much abandoned religion outright. My father believed, so does my mother, but were not practicing - already my society was pushing religion out the door in the 60's and 70's. Now, religion over here is almost non-existant, for the better.

So, abc, you see I still believe that any and all religions must fall, or at least, as you say, get "reborn" as simple ideologies that are curiosities at best.
But can they ever be made to undo the damage that they have caused, and still cause to this day? Nope.

But if we, as a race, stop believing in a paradise promised by a "god", a "god" that tells us we believers are good, and others are bad - we just might start working to fix all that is wrong in the world currently. Religions are of NO HELP whatsoever in dealing with the major problems we face on our planet. This pisses me off.

Regarding scriptures, there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that the Quran is simply an attempt, by mortal men, to write down what the Prophet conjured-up to suit his needs at the time he conjured them up. These men then tried to formulate a coherent book based on an incoherent man's life and directives. A hard task at best. That they categorized it as the pure unquestionable word of god makes sense, they did not want it questioned continuously...

And you are probably right, Islam will get a spanking from the west, youth, and women. Just watch them.
How many Muslim women were horrified by the 14-yr old Pakistani girl shot by the Taliban for wanting an education?

They were horrified, as the world was, and it was obviously religion-induced.

Malem can claim it was not religion at the heart of this attack, but he knows better. He denies it, but he knows better.
Like he knows the Boko-haram, Ansar Dine, Al-Shabaab and other groups COMPULSIVELY spread Islam by force.
(Malem - you can still call me a moron if it amuses you... I'm ok with it really)

Thanks abc, looking forward to seeing your posts in this forum.
0
@ abc
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 22, 2012
> There are many muslim academics around the world now relooking at the books of old and asking questions as to their veracity. This process is happening but very slowly unfortunately.

That doesn't make sense. I think you're saying that *you* haven't judged these things for yourself yet. I don't see why you need them.

> Muslim scholar with western academia methods which muslims did posess and lost are re examining texts and putting valid opinions outhere. Its a process of seperating the wheat from the chaff.

Why aren't you do that yourself?
0
@ abc
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 22, 2012
> I predict that the reniessance of islam will come from the WEST. How ironic is that.

I don't find it ironic. I remember thinking that too. Its the next logical conclusion given the premise that Allah exists and that Mohamed is his messenger.
0
Islam is not a cult
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 22, 2012
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

According to that, Islam is a cult.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
> The word cult in current popular usage usually refers to a new religious movement or other group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre.[1] The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The word was first used in the early 17th century denoting homage paid to a divinity and borrowed via the French culte from Latin cultus "worship", from the adjective cultus "inhabited, cultivated, worshipped", derived from the verb colere "care, cultivate".[citation needed]

According to that, Islam is *not* a Cult.


Hmm. I think Muslims would want to reject the Merriam Webster dictionary, which is one of the best. So they would accept the Wikipedia entry.

abc. What do you think?
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Admin
written by Kaser , November 22, 2012
Care to release my post???
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abc
written by fine , November 22, 2012
Thank you for the six grade lesson in Arabic grammar … Wiki is useful to study such information

If you had told me you want a lesson in Arabic grammar I would have been happy to do that … the problem is the proper English translation to the grammar lesson .

I do not have to look it up in Arabic .. accept if I want to know all the English matching words … like Indicative , subjective and Jussive …

I like to tell you a little story … it tells, How an English person skill in her English language, differ from an Arabic person skill in her arabic language .

First when I came to this country, I Hardly new any English, so when I was asked regularly about my name, notarially I used to say it, without spelling it to them [ I have a hard and strange sounding first and last name ] ….. I used to get a blank look back at me, and I would be asked '' can you spell it please '' … I used to get so surprised and annoyed at the Question.

Finely, I asked my husband '' why would a grown educated employe, ask, to spell a name, ** no one knows how to spell iEnglish in the whole city **

Of course , My mistake was I was comparing an arabic person ability to spell any Arabic word there is, to an English person ability to spell any English there is .

The of the story is that … any student who graduated high school's level Arabic grammar, is able to spell any word thrown at her … because there is not many exceptions and strong background of grammar '' I'a raab '' .. spelling is not an issue as mush as, in English

Arabic word consists, manly of constant letters only and vowels are placed around the words .

An Arabic reader does need the vowels to be able to read, it becomes obsolete .

Any way … Lam Yahidna .. dose not come as a command if that what you mean ..

A command for the root word for'' Yahidna'' is '' Ihid '' … and it does not make any sense the way it is placed in 64/4 .

Abc .. you do not have to tell me to break the sentence down … I do that every time I figour out the spelling of of cretin words and it;s placement in a sentence …. that IS '' I'ARAAB '' .
.





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Criteria for determining a cult, part one
written by Yibel , November 22, 2012
Cults are Controlled by a Dictatorial Authority Figure:

Muhammad was clearly a dictatorial authority figure who controlled all aspects of his follower's life - right down to how many stones to wipe their butts with. Those who opposed him were murdered. And, even centuries after his death, Muhammad is considered to be the "model" human being, in spite of behavior that would normally be recognized outside of the cult as evil (pedophile, thief, murderer, liar, rapist, slave trader, etc.)

Cults are Insular and Antagonist Towards those outside of the Cult:

Islam is insular and antagonist to the non-Islamic world. Examples of this are in abundance. Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men. Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, but they are then converted to Islam. Honor killings are a direct result of this insularity. The Islamic term for the entire non-Muslim world is "Dar Al-Harb" ("World of War").

Cults do not Allow members to leave:

Muhammad declared that apostates be executed. This command is in effect today; accepted by all Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence - and laws against apostasy are common throughout the Muslim world. When a child or spouse shows inclinations of leaving Islam, or otherwise shows traits of being influenced by the non-Islamic world, they are severly punished, and sometimes killed.
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Kaser
written by fine , November 22, 2012
The trnslation of aya 65/4 is as this :

The rules in divorcing wives …. '' and those who gave up on their menstrual, '' if you have doubt about, their period of wait is three month, and the women * who did not have their monthly periods, YET** [ have to wait three month ] …. ''

As I said before in my last post [ any many before that , the crucial word is '' Lam '' which proves that the Aya is talking about girls who have not become women yet …

if the aya want to talk about women who do not have periods and will NEVER DO … the right word to use, is '' lan '' … and never '' lam ''

it would be confusing and the wrong choice of word in terms of grammar .

Although the word '' yet '' is missing in the end the sentence, to further confirm the negatory of the sentence in 65/4 ….but that does not matter, because of the use of Lam and not lan and it is sufficient enough .

When Muslims deny the correct tafseer for this Aya, they conveniently forget the milions of pre menstrual girls who are married off everyday, sense Muhammad married 6 years Ayasha and consummated at 9 .

My own grandmothers, were married the same way … one was 11 . and the other was 14 … my Aunts were …. 8, 13, 12 … my twin nieces both were 13 … I was not married as a child.. I was marries the month I graduated from high school ….

Recently a report came out the most backward Muslims countries like Saudi and Yemen that there was about 500 hundred girls who were taken from husbands to be protected after they were married off as children .

If 65 /4 was wrong and marring liitle grils is FORBIDDEN why would Muhammad defy the Quran and marry a 9 years old ?

It does not make sense and Muslims do not make sinse when they are trying to convincing anyone of the mess called Islam and Quran . .. they are failing at that .

If Islam





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cults, part two
written by Yibel , November 22, 2012
Cults misappropriate the symbols, the ceremonies, the revered historic figures and the religious terminology of other religions for their own use:

Muhammad misappropriated Biblical stories claiming that his versions were the "original" versions of the Torah and Gospels that supported his teachings. He claimed that Jews and Christians falsified their own Scriptures in order to oppose him. In addition, he misappropriated the rituals of the pagan Arabs - the Hajj, the sacred stone of the Ka'aba, and Ramadan fasting (the Tahannuth).

Cult members are programmed, that is, "Brain-Washed"

Can there be any other explanation for a group of people who follow an obviously evil man -- a man who recited verses so full of errors that they are laughable, a man who committed every sin, violated every form of decency, and yet claimed to be a prophet of God and the Model of Perfection?
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Rami
written by abc , November 22, 2012
"> There are many muslim academics around the world now relooking at the books of old and asking questions as to their veracity. This process is happening but very slowly unfortunately.

That doesn't make sense. I think you're saying that *you* haven't judged these things for yourself yet. I don't see why you need them.

> Muslim scholar with western academia methods which muslims did posess and lost are re examining texts and putting valid opinions outhere. Its a process of seperating the wheat from the chaff.

Why aren't you do that yourself?"

Rami I love cars but I couldn't change a gearbox!!
Have a ponder!
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Fineliving
written by abc , November 22, 2012
"My own grandmothers, were married the same way … one was 11 . and the other was 14 … my Aunts were …. 8, 13, 12 … my twin nieces both were 13 … I was not married as a child.. I was marries the month I graduated from high school ….

Recently a report came out the most backward Muslims countries like Saudi and Yemen that there was about 500 hundred girls who were taken from husbands to be protected after they were married off as children .

If 65 /4 was wrong and marring liitle grils is FORBIDDEN why would Muhammad defy the Quran and marry a 9 years old ?"


That is very naughty and you thought I wouldn't know?
Please do not intertwine marriage and the ability to menses.
They are not the same. I know by combining it shows your point but that's called deceit. You could have 20 aunts who were married at 12!
It does not mean they had "relations" then.
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Fineliving
written by abc , November 22, 2012
"Recently a report came out the most backward Muslims countries like Saudi and Yemen that there was about 500 hundred girls who were taken from husbands to be protected after they were married off as children "

That doesn't surprise me about the Saudis!
By the way the capital of child brides is not Saudi Arabia but INDIA.
Maybe some of the "shiv sena" boys that post here could explain that!
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My opinion...
written by Random citizen , November 22, 2012
Well-being of stability in EU needs Turkey and well-being of secularism and modernism in Turkey needs EU's support, I think. Everybody wins. That said, I'd say EU's need for Turkey is bigger than the opposite so a haughty and unrealistic list of demands, conditions will only accelerate the slow slide into a more islamist society and state, last thing the crumbling unity of Europe needs. And, by missing the oppurtunity, probably means watching EU plunge into an escalating dissolution and a seriously resentful dissolution too.

Just a small portion of the countless things to consider before starting with demands...
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@ abc
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 22, 2012
> Rami I love cars but I couldn't change a gearbox!!

You don't change gearboxes because you don't have sufficient knowledge to do so.

So you are saying that you don't have sufficient knowledge to be able to judge "the books of old and asking questions as to their veracity".

So, what knowledge do you think you lack?
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Rami
written by abc , November 22, 2012
You hit the nail on the head!
"So you are saying that you don't have sufficient knowledge to be able to judge "the books of old and asking questions as to their veracity"
Academics do and are, and will drag everything forward.
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Rami
written by abc , November 22, 2012
People like hamza yousef Hanson-convert
Professor amina wadud-convert
Professor Ingrid mattson-convert
Professor omid saffi
Professor tariq ramadan
There are hundreds of them in the academic sphere in the west and a lot of the are converts too. They see Islam without the Arab or Pakistani or whatever cultures intertwined. Leadership and academia sadly lacks in the Arabian peninsula regarding contemporary issues.
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Abc
written by fine , November 22, 2012
seriously ?

You do not see a connection between thses 500 child brides in Saudi and Yemen[ the cradle place of Islam ] and Muhammad's marriage to 9 year old Aisha ?

What is amazing to me, is that, we keep calling the marriage of Aisha as just islamic … better name is typical prehistoric thinking that HAPPEN TO BE ISLAMIC ..

Islam was nothing but the product of that it's TIMES … child marriages were normal most people thought to marry off little girls is good for the girls … to be raised in her husband house holds with other wives to get used to and accept everything .

The fact that islam was the product of it's time does not help the cause of Islam, it actually hinders it .. and it is nothing but proof that, Islam never came from any God … it is as human and basic as eating and drinking and birthing …

if Islam was from a merciful and loving God, Islam would have :

**abolished** child brides at once ..abolished slavery .. abolished capital punishment …. abolished beheadings … abolished public slashing … abolished cutting hand and legs … abolished staking wives … abolished wive beating [ Quran actually endorse it ] … abolished Obeying wives … abolished killing of apostates … abolished discrimination of all kinds against anyone not Muslim .

The fact that it did NOT , that is a proof of it's short comings, it makes Islam, the furthest from anything it claims …

You might say, it could have not abolish anything , because , the world was not ready for THAT kind of advanced thinking … that is absolutely NOT an excuse, especially when Quran says, IT IS FOR ALL TIMES and it is THE LAST MESSAGE TO HUMANITY … that goes for other religions too .

If Muslims can't see that , they are blind.

BTW

Did you know the reason why Muhammad permitted 4 wives fiasco for each Muslim man instead of more or less ?!

Because, each women have a week off from wifely duties, due to their monthly flux, Muhammad used, the only two cells in his pee brian, and calculated that a man should have at least one wife available for each week of the month … this way a Muslim man never goes without.

Muhammad's Allah did not know that women tend to have their flux about the same time if they are together … may be that is why he permitted sleeping with slaves ! .

Allah/Muhammad thinks of everything …




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@ abc
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 22, 2012
> You hit the nail on the head! "So you are saying that you don't have sufficient knowledge to be able to judge "the books of old and asking questions as to their veracity." Academics do and are, and will drag everything forward.

So why do you believe that Allah exists? You are judging ideas by the authority of something. What authority? These academics that haven't finished investigating those books?
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Fineliving
written by Kaser , November 23, 2012
Exactly my thoughts about the whole Islam thing. Completely made up. It's so completely obvious to any non-Muslims, it makes you wonder...

...I think some Muslims are just too plain dumb and too "madrassa-conditioned" to think otherwise. They are the bottom of the barrel in intelligence.
Some others are too scared to say anything but that the Quran is the perfect word of god - you know Blasphemy and apostasy... It's as if the Quran's writers WROTE the punishments for thinking otherwise straight into the book they want so desperatly to protect! The Quran says it's perfect - wow! What credibility!!!

Yet some others, like Malem, CHOOSE to believe fully in Islam because it SUITS them. The two wives and all... The I'm better than you because I believe. He likes it very much, and will defend it,. just for the fun of it - it gives him justification for his double standards: Ok for a man to have 4 wives, but not ok for a women to have 4 husbands. How misogynistic. Women are vaginas and uteruses... Oh, and some of them have jobs... how cute of them... but be home and ready to be tilled...

Finally, others, like abc (I believe) know the Quran for exactly what it is, but take the good out of it for personal reasons.
But they will defend the bad parts, because not doing so completely INVALIDATES the whole book, and they don't want this.

But you are so right Fineliving, the whole Quran is so pathethically, completely HUMAN.
I just fall on the floor laughing when I hear the Malems of the world claim "Islam is pure light" - "Quran is the pure word of god" - "Allah is the best communicator"

What a load of bull$hit... and a riot to read!
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Fineliving
written by Kafirwala , November 23, 2012

Hats off to you, dear Fineliving for the excellent assessment of the cult known as Islam. Your insight and keen observation skills are really amazing. I know your handicaps. Having born in a traditional syrian muslim family, I am sure, you did not have proper education in English and you must have been married off at a relatively young age. Yet, you overcome such obstacles and display here a rare analytical power of an intellectual and honesty of a social thinker. Really wonderful and worthy of emulation, I would say. You are shattering the myriad myths and concoctions the Islamic apologists say in defense of Islam and are brutally
exposing the evil cult for what it is really worth. Please carry on the mission. I am sure after sometime the very people who criticise and laugh at you at every opportunity now will realise their folly and will hail you as a remarkable person with insight and sincerity.
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Fineliving
written by abc , November 23, 2012
Seriously???
"You do not see a connection between thses 500 child brides in Saudi and Yemen[ the cradle place of Islam ] and Muhammad's marriage to 9 year old Aisha ?"


Why is India the child bride capital of the world!
Maybe the shiv sena clowns who post here can help you????
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abc
written by Kaser , November 24, 2012
Because in India, and in most Islamic countries, there are many piss-poor people willing to sell their daughters for money, advantages, or whatever else they need improved in their lives. The richer men will offer $$$ for the young girls. Piss-poor people, coupled with no education, makes for good child-bride markets.

As simple as that.

Pathetic, cruel, and completely against western modern moral values.
Values that have nothing to do with any religion.
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child marriages
written by Kafirwala , November 24, 2012

Is India the child marriage capital of the world?

I wonder.

May be in the past. Now in my state anyway, only the muslims marry off their girl children at a pre- pubescent age. Considering that India is the second largest country in muslim population in the world, the instance of child marriages in India will be rampant, no doubts about it. But, whether it will make India the world capital is the only question.
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Kaser and Kaffirwala
written by fineliving , November 24, 2012
I have a keen understanding of Islam because I lived it … what better teaching tool then to see it all as a child .

English is my handicap .. but I feel that, as long as my point is going through, then, I should keep going and do not let my annoying doubts let it be a deterrence .

Paint brush is my preferred tool for my expression ….sometimes I find words are not adequate enough ….

I have heard, that the language you think with, is the one you stuck with …

I just like to thank you both for appreciation and your very good posts .

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