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The Islamic Meaning of "Beating"

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Why are Muslims so touchy about the word “Beat”?


Nothing embarrasses Muslims more than the command in the Quran to beat their women. Here is what the Quran says:

As for those [women] whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, send them to beds apart, and beat them. (Surah 4:34, N. J. Dawood translation)

The Arabic word for “beat” used in Surah 4:34 is iḍribūhunna, which comes from the root ḍaraba (Arabic: ضرب). The various meanings of this word include to hit, to travel the earth, to set up, to condemn and to give examples. The word also has a crude meaning referring to sexual intercourse. So in the context of a rebellious wife who has been admonished and then forced to sleep apart from the man, which of those alternate meanings of the word would constitute the next escalation of punishment? Of those choices, only “to hit” seems logical in the context.

islam-quran-wife-beating

Sharia Law supports this interpretation. In Reliance of the Traveler, section m10.12, it states that husbands should tell their wives, “Your obeying me is religiously obligatory.” Then, if the wife commits rebelliousness, he may ultimately “hit her, but not in a way that injures her, meaning he may not break bones, wound her, or cause blood to flow.”

Since this command to beat wives makes half of the Muslim population subject to beating by the other half, it is a matter of grave concern. The California penal code, section 243(e)(1) for example, makes spousal beating an intimate partner a misdemeanor crime. A husband commits domestic battery under this section if he willfully inflicts force or violence upon his intimate partner. Intimate partners include his fiancée, his current or former spouse, someone with whom he lives, the parent of his child, or anyone he is or were dating. A man can be arrested for spousal battery under Penal Code 243 (e) (1) even if he only uses the slightest force... any unwanted physical touching will suffice. This is often referred to as simple domestic battery. This means that one doesn't actually have to injure his intimate partner to be convicted of this particular domestic violence crime. The misdemeanor becomes a felony crime of the victim is actually injured. Other state laws are similar. The husband is likewise protected from battery by his wife by this law.

Wife-beating was not a crime when Surah 4:34 was handed down in Medina in the 7th century. According to the hadith of Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Number 2127, Muhammad had hit his young wife Aisha on the chest for spying on him, and it caused her much pain.   Muhammad was also quoted as saying, “A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.” (Sunaan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 42). But in the 21st Century, wife-beating is a serious problem, and Muslims know this.

Most early English versions of the Quran used “beat” or “scourge” without qualification.  In the mid-Twentieth Century, two major English translations appeared – A. J. Arberry (1955) and N. J. Dawood (1956). Both of these translations used the word “beat” in Surah 4:34. Since then, however, many translations have shied away from the word “beat.” It is interesting to see how the translation of that surah has evolved. Here are a few of the different post-1956 versions:

Muhammad Asad (1980): beat them  [With a long footnote disputing that interpretation.]

Ahmed Ali (1984): go to bed with them (when they are willing)

Muhammad Muhsin Khan (1985): beat them (lightly, if it is useful)

Rashad Khalifa (1992): then you may (as a last resort) beat them

Taqiud Dun Hilali and Muhsin Khan (1996): beat them (lightly, if it is useful)

Syed Vickar Ahamed (2007): percuss them

Edip Yuksel (2007): separate them

Mohamed K. Jasser (2008): some you may have to get going on their way (sic)

Tarif Khalidi (2008): smack them

Laleh Bakhtiar (2009): go away from them

Maulana Wahiduddin Khan (2009): hit them [lightly]

Nazeer Ahmed (2011): bring them out (before the judicial process)

Obviously, Muslims are touchy about this verse because it implies that Allah authorized violence against half the Muslim population. How can Muslims ever convince others that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance if this verse is translated literally? Hence, the creative renderings shown above. Nobody will be fooled by this deception – at least for long.

Comments (158)Add Comment
0
mutta marriage is best wam bam thank u ex-wife mam !!! and start it all over again !!!
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROOON , July 10, 2012
mutta marriage is best wam bam thank u ex-wife mam !!! and start it all over again !!!

arabs practice it in india.it was in many papers but now they dont put these reports as they rcv money.
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About Mut'ah marriage, Sunnis and Shi'ites disagree
written by Yibel , July 10, 2012
In the hadith collection of Tirmizi, Abdullah Ibn Abbas narrates:
Temporary marriage was at the beginning of Islam. A man comes by a town where he has no acquaintances, so he marries for a fixed time depending on his stay in the town, the woman looks after his provisions and prepares his food, until the verse was revealed: 'Except to your wives or what your right hands possess.' ("what your right hand possesses" means slave women.) Q. 4:24
A majority of Sunnis believe that Muhammad later abolished mut'ah marriage at several different large events, the most accepted being at the massacre of Khaybar in 629 CE/7 AH when many Jewish slave women were taken (Bukhari 059.527) or at the Victory of Makkah the following year.
The Shi'a sect believe that Umar ibn al-Khattab abolished mut'ah marriage, but only temporarily; however, since Umar, according to them, had no authority to do so, Umar's prohibition may be ignored (Muslim 2801 1, 2).

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise. Quran 4:24

Clear as MUD!
0
Mutah and Sunni
written by Infidel and More Proud , July 10, 2012
Sunni have their own version as Misyar. More or less same in purpose
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Islamic Law
written by Gnostic , July 10, 2012
I have heard that if a muslim marries more than one woman, he has to treat them all as equal, right? Therefore, if he beats one of them, he also has to beat all the others in the same way, right?

There is another name for the muslim ummah: WBA or Wife Beating Association!
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Wife Beating
written by balam , July 10, 2012
Why is the wife not allowed to beat unruly husband,separate his bed and sleep with another man?When Mohammad made up that verse,he had 11 wives.It was alright for him as he could send one away to a separate bed as he was lucky to have SEX with another 10.WHY DID HE MARRY 11 WOMEN WHEN ALLAH ALLOWED MAXIMUM ONLY 4 TO MUSLIMS?CAN ANYBODY ENLIGHTEN ME,PLEASE.I AM JUST CONFUSED!!!
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http://supremechristian.blogspot.com/
written by HenriMaurice (Ex-Muslim) , July 11, 2012
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Yawn yawn
written by abc , July 11, 2012
Another deluded Christian on an islamohate site!
Jesus would be proud indeed!
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abc
written by Jye , July 11, 2012
There is nothing hateful on that blog. I looked, did you? Or are you as deluded and ignorant as the people you accuse? Before you make statements that Jesus would be proud of hate, you might want to research Jesus' message. Jesus taught to love your enemies and pray for them. People can find many verses that preach war and intolerance in the Quran, so maybe you would like to find an example of where Jesus preached the same thing? Or maybe you should yawn away to a dictionary and look up the word hypocrite? Hmmm?
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also
written by Jye , July 11, 2012
Do you have anything relevant to say about the subject of this post, or are you going to maintain your stance of Islamovictim?
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Jye
written by abc , July 11, 2012
You must be blind and stupid not to see and realise.
Reading com
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Jye
written by abc , July 11, 2012
You must have the reading comprehension of a child! Jesus must be proud was an ironic remark. Does mummy and daddy know you are playing in this site?
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...
written by vbv , July 11, 2012
Hahahahahahaha! The cartoons reflect the state of muslim minds. Nothing more need be said on this topic. I hope mullahs do not call for the blood of the cartoonist again. Hahahahahahahahahaha!
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abc
written by Jye , July 11, 2012
Neither, but enlighten me. please point out what I am not "seeing".
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abc
written by Jye , July 11, 2012
I'm sorry, I can't take anyone who follows Islam seriously, so your attempts to patronize me are laughable. Irony doesn't work when it is an oxymoron, Please try harder.
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misyar nmarriage is similar to muttah
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROOON , July 11, 2012


yes i chk'ed misyar is similar to muttah.
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Jye is Blind?
written by Malem , July 11, 2012
No hate in the above? Do you not see the way the protray a Muslim man in the illustration, as a big nosed wild eyed barefoot crazed person? That is pure racism and bigotry at its core as is the article. It translates the Surah wrong and even admits it at the onset of the article. Such illustrations were common in the west when the africans were first imported as slaves...just another islamaphobic article with no merit or value.
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abc
written by Jye , July 11, 2012
Looks like we were on different pages. I was referring to the blog that HenriMaurice (Ex-Muslim) pasted.
Secondly, how is the Sura translated wrong? I have two copies of the Quran, from two different Islamic sites and both have the word "beat" within it. How else would one interpret the word "beat"? And if it is wrong, then why are millions of copies of the Quran translated into English that gives the clear impression that if your wife disobeys her husband, he has the approval of God to beat her?
Furthermore, racism exists everywhere and to accuse only he west of it is arrogant.
If you speak to me, don't bother to attempt to belittle me. I'm not ten and I don't respond to immature, petty insults. If you can't answer just say so. Don't answer a question with a question and please don't use diversion tactics to refrain from answering.
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Dont beat her!!
written by Reed Wilson , July 11, 2012

The meanings of English word scourge are same as you mention. But in 4:34 the Arabic word وَاضْرِب is used. It has following meanings:

•To smack without harshness.
•To discipline.
•To strike lightly.
•To counsel
•To relate story
•To give example.
•A kind advice or a parable.

For example:

•وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ
Tell them the story of the people of the town to whom Messengers came. ((36:13)

•وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا رَّجُلَيْنِ جَعَلْنَا لِأَحَدِهِمَا جَنَّتَيْنِ
Tell them the parable of the two men. To one of them We had given two gardens of vines surrounded by the palm trees with a piece of farm land between them (18:32)

•وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا قَرْيَةً
•God tells a parable about a secure and peaceful town…. (16:112)

•وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا رَّجُلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا
•God tells a parable about two men…… (16:76)

•وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا
And present to them the example of the life of this world…. (18:45)

•وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْن
“And Allah presents an example of those who believed: the wife of Pharaoh.." (66:11)

•إِذَا ضَرَبُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ
“Do not copy those who deny, and say of their brethren….. (3:156)

•نظُرْ كَيْفَ ضَرَبُوا لَكَ الْأَمْثَالَ فَضَلُّوا فَلَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ سَبِيلًا
See what similes they strike for thee: (17:48)

•انظُرْ كَيْفَ ضَرَبُوا
See what kinds of comparisons they make for thee! (25:9)

•وَلَمَّا ضُرِبَ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ مَثَلًا إِذَا
“When the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamor thereat (in ridicule)! (43:57)

Dont beat her. But if you are out to beat, you dont need scriptural license. Quite many beat their beloved wives without believing in Quran.

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Progressive punishment
written by ChrisLA , July 11, 2012
All of those uses of the root word "daraba" are intersting, but the context of Surah 4:34 is progressive punishment. The woman has already been admonished and forsaken to a bed apart, so which of the uses would be a harsher punishment than those already used? Beating seems to be the next logical step. To confirm the harshness of the Quran's commands regarding women, see also Surah 4:15 which says that women who commit fornication should be confined to their houses "till death overtakes them or till God finds another way for them." Hardly a parable.
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jye
written by malem , July 11, 2012
Ok so your not ten your eleven, at least in maturity. The article along with the picture is meant to portray arabs as animals (not not all arabs are muslims). Second the word that is used, as Reed pointed out, does not neccesiraly translate to Beat. I know you want it to say that so you can hang your hat on some follish argument, but you can't. Point, score Match , I win.
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Malem
written by abc , July 11, 2012
Forget the language usage that is above his paygrade.
It's the articles that wants to paint the Muslims as "the other".
That picture shows you exactly their intention. Yet they cannot produce any evidence or stats to show!
Once you can paint them as other then it's easy to demonise them.
I mean you only have to look at the way Europe turned on the Jews!
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abc and malem
written by Jye , July 11, 2012
Abc, thank you for not disappointing. I knew you wouldn't answer my question. Instead your argument was to cry victim and compare yourselves to the Jews of WW2? Arrogant, but fairly telling, if not just outright pathetic. Islam needs to start cleaning up its house on a grand scale before any of its members have the audacity to start calling themselves victims. I don't recall the Jews of Europe plotting terrorist attacks and blowing themselves, and many innocent people, up, do you?
Also, I didn't ask what "beat" translated in Arabic, I asked why it is written in millions of English translated Qurans, if it means something else. There's no confusing "beat" in English, unless it means beat as in rhythm, and we all know it doesn't. Seems someone who accuses others of poor comprehension is pretty hypocritical. Hmmm?
Malem, if you're going to attack my maturity make sure you use correct grammar, and since my question remains unanswered, proclaiming yourself the winner is pretty laughable. But if it makes you feel better, sure, why not.
I'll wait for a little bit longer and see if you guys can answer why Muslim scholars, that have translated your holy books into our language, want English speaking people to think wife beating is sanctioned. Also, why they want us to believe Mohammed married a 6 year old, and why he murdered, raped and pillaged his way through Arabia. It's ALL in the English translated versions, of the Quran and Hadiths for anyone to see. I also suppose it's all coincidence that a vast number of Muslims follow the English translated texts of violence, intolerance and war instead of the apparent "peaceful" Arabic versions. Even stranger is when they read from their books, it's IN Arabic. Interesting, huh?
0
jye
written by malem , July 12, 2012
Stop being lazy, learn quran arabic and then you will see clearly. Until keep drawing your pitures like above to try and paint all arabs or muslims as animals, as ABC pointed to rightly the same crap was done to the jews in europe and ill add the blacks in the west. When you don't understand something just demonize it, ya that will work hahah
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Jye
written by abc , July 12, 2012
Don't make me laugh! Reed answered the question right below your post. Have a read and see how many ways the Arabic word translates into english.
But your response says alot about you! Ignore what's infront of you to try and score a point. The pattern is clear maybe not to potential perps!
What is interesting that there is massive body of work explaining to people!
But you just want to make shit up as you go along!
That's just poor scholarship on your part.
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Abc
written by pipo , July 12, 2012
"it's the articles that wants to paint the Muslims as "the other""


The "We vs Them thinking" is premiered in the qu'ran... it's apartheid in the making.
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 12, 2012
Those who are beating their wives do not recite 3/54 before beating. Muslims do not read Quran.
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Reed?
written by malem , July 12, 2012
Muslims do not read the Quran? Maybe in your little world, but here they all do
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Pipo
written by abc , July 12, 2012
Really
So are you a goem or infidel???
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Abc
written by pipo , July 12, 2012
Jye's question still stands!

My questions;


Why does Allah use a word which has seven possible meanings? Does he like to be ambiguous and unclear?

How does Reed know all the right translations of this one word in different verses?

Then why would we doubt it's true meaning if most scholars/translators prefer to translate it as 'beat'?
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Pipo
written by abc , July 12, 2012
No it doesn't mr Islam expert!
For the understands of the language fus'a arabic then it's not.
Are you a literalist???
Reed is just repeating what the scholars have written.
Reed has also pointed out the different meanings of that verb.
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OT …. Good news among all that bad news coming from Syria
written by fineliving56 , July 12, 2012
We just got news of the release of my husband nephew today after tense and hard 2 days negotiations to have him, let go and same time try to cut down the ransom money … he was ruffed up but was not badly beaten or raped.

To our unexpected surprise, the pathetic kidnappers were in so much need and desperation state for funds, that they agreed on only 150,000 Lira .. which is only 3 thousand dollars after they asked for 10, also they took the truck he was driving.

It feels good when humanity can show it self in hearts, where it has rarely have been seen .
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on this junk.
written by lol , July 12, 2012
ok people. quit arguing and junk, the word beat means to hit. so no matter what translation yall wana use it still means to put ur hands on them. so IN fact the quran or w/e the heck it is, is in fact! telling them its OK to hit their wives.
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another thing.
written by lol , July 12, 2012
i think all who are trying to make the islam holy book in a good light. mine as well to live other their and see how nice they are at stoning people to death in the street and beheading people. i mean realy ppl comon.they say its a religion of peace. yet from what iv been reading today on the stubject it seems that infact it encourges war and hate. if u want a religion of peace. be a buddist monk or some crap.
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...
written by Truthseeker , July 12, 2012
If "beat" here doesnt mean what people think it means then why does every translation in the world call it just that?
It is simply such a joke to say that "beat" here signifies a light slap or telling a story. A....ahem.... "rebellious" woman would just laugh in her husband's face.

Sorry guys, Malem, its good that you dont believe in wife beating. As a woman I can sure appreciate that. But you are blinded. To beat a wife in the Koran means just that. To beat her hard like a disobedient dog.
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truthseeker.
written by lol , July 12, 2012
thank you. it seems people would rather argue the meaning of a word they KNOW what means. more inportant than the fact that the Koran is indeed telling them its OK. quit sugur coating it and see it for what it is.
0
...
written by Truthseeker , July 12, 2012
You know that site has a lot of porn links, just letting you all know
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truthseeker
written by lol , July 12, 2012
yes it does. but this is not Fap time. its view the truth on middle east time :p
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Reed Wilson
written by fineliving56 , July 12, 2012
First I like to welcome you back … Despite our total disagreement on Quran and Islam, Your always maintained a gentlemanly level of discussion other Muslims have failed at that .. ? …

Too bad you maintained the same excuses about the word " beat" in Quran that I have refuted in finality before … with all proves and logic

Reed, you still do not know Arabic and it looks like you will never will … it is BECAUSE you do not know Arabic and it complexity … you give such utter mistaken meanings to The word Beat …

Now … try to think of what I am saying …

The problem ,Reed [ your problem especially ] is that you do not differentiate between meanings of *single Arabic words* and * compounded Arabic words * … THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCE !!!!

You know and I know there a huge difference between the two in every language … you choose to ignore that, to convince others and be convinced … and you are so wrong …

let us examine and dissect the word '' idrubohunnah ''

The word I - DRUBO- HUNNAH which came by it self … *ALONE * with no word before it or after it to make it compounded …. means >>>>> order to [usually a man]to BEAT a WOMEN … or STRIK or HIT

It comes from root word ''Darb'' .. BEAT

The letter " I '' before the D … in Arabic .. makes the word " Darb '' as an order to do " beating '' … then - drubo - is the actuls word .. and then hunnah is ,there, to refer to '' many females ''

So … idrobohunnah is ONLY referred to and to mean ...'' an order to many women to be beaten … absolutely nothing else .

It is the way it came in Quran like I explained … makes it, absolutely means nothing but { an order to beat women }

Now have you got, that ?

Let skim over the Arabic compouded words that you brought and they had the word '' darb '' … but because they compounded they CHANGE THE MEANINGS as you CAN READ in 4/34 the word beat came alone …CAME ALONE !!! … means, not compounded like you tried to say in your post

So far so good ?

To be continue
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Reed Wilson
written by fineliving56 , July 12, 2012
You brought example from Quran, of how the word "Darab " comes in different meanings like '' to give an example "' and others …

* What you wrote PROOFS , to me, your ignorance in the Arabic language … which is nothing wrong with that … it just … PLEASE…. do not come here and try to lump all Arabic words together and try to pass meanings that are ….WRONG

As you can read in your own examples from Quran like 36/13 …and 16/76

****For the word "' Darab '" , to mean '' give examle " .. * it has to be fallowed by the word "' Mathalan " or after a subject in between Daraba and Mathalan ***

Like in 16 /76 "' Daraba Allah Mathalan "' means '' Allah gives an example ..

go Reed …. and check it your self again you WILL find your mistakes …

"Daraba Mathalan " "to give example " like in 16/76 … it WILL NEVER mean " Daraba" "Beat " .. or Idrobuhunnah ''…Like it CAME IN Q 4/34

BTW … your translation is wrong for Quran Ayas you brought … But I am not going to go in such long discution … will leave it for now .

BTW 2 …. you added the word lightly after the word beat when you listed the meanings for The word "beat " in Quran … IT IS NOT THERE !!!
Lightly … is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND NEAR THE WORD " BEAT " .in 4/34 …. how many times we are going to go through this !!!?? … it is not even implied !!!

Beat '' Idrobuhunnah … is alone and lonely …. in 4/34 …

I challenge you Reed to find the word "' lightly " in tat Aya … it has been added to lessen the blunt effect this hated and cruel … cruel word in Quran .

I know it hurts Reed …. how Your Allah did not have the care for the women to protect them from the already brutal man's world … but .. you have to deal with it … like we women had to still do … Deal with it.

I hope you got it … this time around !


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fineliving
written by malem , July 12, 2012
You are wrong it can also mean condemn as used in the quran,
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Malam … NO YOU ARE WRONG !
written by fineliving56 , July 12, 2012
And you know it … but if you did not know it …Let me tell you for your future references …

BEAT …. is absolutely DOES NOT MEAN ** CONDEMN **

Condemn … is …. Hakama Ala [ sentenced ] .. or … Adana [ to charge someone ] …or …Shagaba [ expressing sever disapproval ] …… thats means it is NOT * physical * is verbal … and beat IS PHYSICAL

Beat … is …. Daraba [ to strike violently ] …to hurt [ Yu'zi … to use a tool or a hand to beat physically …

Do not mix words to try to lessen the impact of that hurtful word in Quran that it never should have been is such a book … and the fact that it is there and Husbands understand it and fallow it , makes it dangerous to women …

Again … Idrobuhunnah … is NOT condemnation *** it is an order for Muslim man to Beat their women when they disobey as a last resort, after the Muslim man try to condemn her by having a stern talk with her and after he for forsake her bed … as 4/34 says
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abc
written by Jye , July 12, 2012
Sorry, abc, you need to reread my question. I did not ask how many different ways beat can translate to English from Arabic, I asked why it has ONLY been translated to the English word "beat" when there's no confusion as to what it means - in the English language.
As I have already stated. Either millions of copies of English translated Qurans are wrong, giving us readers the impression that a Muslim man is allowed to beat his wife, or you're a liar and it actually does intend for a Muslim to beat his wife. So, which is it?
Please answer correctly this time. The question is clear.
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ts just a cartoon
written by dead or alive , July 12, 2012
And it makes people smile and lol.What is wrong with making people happy in this world,Muslims?
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fineliving
written by Rationalist , July 12, 2012
Reed, Malem, and abc are subcontinent Muslims, whose forefathers were forced to accept Islam. If they care to read Mughal, Tughlaq, and other dynasty court chronicles they will realize the horrors faced by their ancestors. Even now nobody in the subcontinent speaks Arabic. Why? Those continents/regions that opposed Islam at the beginning of onslaught (Jihad) never accepted Arabic. As a result, countries like India, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, and Bangladesh continued to speak native languages. Many Pakistanis and Indian Muslims sport typical Hindu surnames, though they try to trace their ancestry to Persia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Mongolia.

Reed might play Al-taqiyya at his best. However, modern world, through internet, has advanced so much that it realizes the blunt nature of Islam. Fineliving, you should continue to expose the likes of Malem and Reed. I must say Islam has ruined Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh.
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typical decietful interpretation
written by abc , July 12, 2012
Just like a typical islamophobe she takes the verse in isolation not only that but takes a single verb in isolation. It is quite amusing to see the explanation. That is why the the really silly should not try to make stuff up as they go along.
There are 3 parts to that verse to understand it correctly and in context.
a. The meaning of the term qawwamuna
b. The meaning of the term nushuz
c. Adribu (Arabic root – daraba)

Here is the correct tafseer on the verse

http://islamsearch.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/tafseer-surah-434-does-islam-really.html
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fineliving lies
written by abc , July 12, 2012
The correct meaning of the verse and not in isolation.

http://islamsearch.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/tafseer-surah-434-does-islam-really.html

The discussion is way to long to type through. Besides admin has taken 3 of my responses thus far.
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more proof
written by abc , July 12, 2012
http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm

infact even wikipedia disagrees with fine living and her analysis.

"Reed, you still do not know Arabic and it looks like you will never will … it is BECAUSE you do not know Arabic and it complexity "
That is funny coming from you given the rules of the arabic language are derived from the quran.

"What you wrote PROOFS , to me, your ignorance in the Arabic language … which is nothing wrong with that … it just … PLEASE"
No his exaples are absolutely valid as the quran is the gold standard of arabic. You perception of the rules is incorrect.
Says alot about the syrian educations system really.

"Lightly … is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND NEAR THE WORD " BEAT " .in 4/34 …. how many times we are going to go through this !!!?? … it is not even implied"
Oh dear it is. If you bothered to look at the entire verse and not just one evrb then you may understand. What do the words qwwamunna and nushuz mean??? You undertand that then the verse opens up.
Who taught you? sam shamoun!!

"I know it hurts Reed …. how Your Allah did not have the care for the women to protect them from the already brutal man's world … but .. you have to deal with it … like we women had to still do … Deal with it"
Cue the violin music. How about this given the above, i know it hurts that you have left islam because of poor scholarship and the consequences you will have to deal with



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Back to reality
written by abc , July 12, 2012
If Finelivings very poor interpretation was correct then you would see evidence. I mean surely the cases of domestic abuse in the Muslim community must be off the scale. I mean according to fine living its a religious edict.

What do we see in reality? The stats are no different from any other community in direct proportion!
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abc
written by Rationalist , July 12, 2012
abc, I feel sorry for ur ancestors
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Fact:
written by Jye , July 12, 2012
Within the English translated Quran, it explicitly states that a man is allowed to beat his wife. It makes no difference what the word derived from in Arabic. Beat is beat in English. So either two things have happened. Those scholars, that translated millions of copies of Qurans, knowingly used the English word "beat" with the full intention of it reading how an English person would understand it as (domestic violence), or every Islamic scholar that has translated the Quran into English ALL translated the wrong word.
Wow, collective ineptness or more deception?
0
...
written by vbv , July 12, 2012
Strange, abc claims that the arabic language is derived from quran. How were the pre-islamic arabs communicating ? Usling sign language, heh? No wonder the muslims are so dumb. They find everything in those 6600 'ayats' of the quran that it is too much of a strain on their underdeveloped brains to go beyond it. That is why mullahs over centuries burnt books of other languages , philosophy, literature, science that they could not plagiarize and so on. The destruction of Taxila university and Nalanda university in India by muslim invaders is well known. And islam is supposed to be a religion of 'peace' and is supposed to give solutions to all the problems of humanity when these a*****es cannot solve any of their own problems and they cut each others' throats to prove whose is following a more 'pure' form of islam, not to speak of sectarian violence against deobandis, barreilivis, ahmedias, shias, etc. One has to accept one thing about islam and muslims : they are the greatest liars , deceivers and obfuscators ever in history.
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abc
written by Jye , July 12, 2012
Reed did not answer my question. Read it again. I am asking why English translated Qur'ans state quite clearly, that a man can beat his wife. There is no confusion with the word beat. It means exactly that. So, telling me what various meanings an Arabic word has is irrelevant. It has been translated INTO ENGLISH as BEAT.
Who wanted us to intentionally think Islam is a religion of misogyny? Or were all those scholars actually translating it correctly.
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rationalist
written by malem , July 12, 2012
You have no proof that any forefathers were forced into Islam, and in fact some of the people you name their forefathers were other religions. So if your going to make up crap at least do a good job.

As for the interpretation, it has always been communicated as condemn and scorge during my time from a small child to today. Fineliving as usual is on the sympathy train trying to blame her own woes on Islam versus the individual who is responsible.
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Rationalist
written by Abc , July 12, 2012
Fortunately i don't share your view.
I'm sure they did the best they could. I'm not going to judge them.
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abc
written by Jye , July 12, 2012
ALL of them translated it wrong? Is that what you're trying to say? That's a huge ask.
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Jye
written by Abc , July 12, 2012
If that's the closest word in the English language!
That's a limitation unfortunate!
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abc
written by Jye , July 12, 2012
I'm sorry, it's hard to believe that there ISN'T a word in the English language other than one that translates to violence. If the correct translation is "counsel" or thereabouts, and NOT beat, then there's scores of words that could fit BEFORE using the word beat.
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Jye
written by Abc , July 12, 2012
Since its Ramadan next week I will make it relavent!

"O you who believe! Fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious)." [Soorah al-Baqarah (2):183]

It's almost impossible to use a single word in the English language to describe al muttaqun! Pious loosely resembles it so you use it!
Ask anybody muttaqun dies not mean pious strictly speaking, it's much more than that!
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abc
written by Jye , July 12, 2012
I don't view these two as similar. Beat does not loosely resemble or is similar to an action of non violence. I'm sure your intentions are honorable, but I can only judge what I see for myself. I ordered two Qurans from two separate Islamic online sites a few years ago. Both are practically identical, and both contain multiple verses of violence. Because you believe they are wrong, doesn't make them wrong. I can't accept that all the violent texts that I have read regarding non-believers is a mistake. That defies logic.

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Jye
written by Abc , July 12, 2012
All I got told regarding that verse is that you have to look at what Qawwamuna, Nashuz then in context look at daraba!

read the below article and that should answer your question!

http://islamsearch.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/tafseer-surah-434-does-islam-really.html?m=1
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To Gnostic, Abc
written by Archpagan , July 12, 2012
@ Gnostic
I am sure; you are an Auditor by profession.

@ Abc
So, Koran being unintelligible to a non-Arabic speaking person, Islam is not suitable for them. It is absolutely wrong for a non-Arab to accept Islam. Am I correct?
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To Gnostic, Abc
written by Archpagan , July 12, 2012
@ Gnostic
I am sure; you are an Auditor by profession.

@ Abc
So, Koran being unintelligible to a non-Arabic speaking person, Islam is not suitable for them. It is absolutely wrong for a non-Arab to accept Islam. Am I correct?
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Archpagan
written by Abc , July 12, 2012
No you are not correct
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 12, 2012
Rationalist. You say "Reed might play Al-taqiyya at his best"

No he will never. He cannot. Quran has haramofied taqyya. Alllah says:

ا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّـهَ وَقُولُوا قَوْلًا سَدِيدًا ﴿٧٠﴾ يُصْلِحْ لَكُمْ أَعْمَالَكُمْ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّـهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ فَازَ فَوْزًا عَظِيمًا

" O you who have attained to faith! Remain conscious of God, and always speak with a will to bring out only what is just and true - whereupon He will cause your deeds to be virtuous, and will forgive you your sins. And [know that] whoever pays heed unto God and His Apostle has already attained to a mighty triumph". (33:70-71).

also he personally abhors Taqayya.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 12, 2012
Rationalist. Asad has translated Arabic word وَرَسُولَهُ as 'his apostle' I would translate it as 'his message'. It is not mistake. Word Rasool is used for both message and messenger.

Asad is a Jew. I like his translation.
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Reed
written by Truthseeker , July 13, 2012
I forgot to say Welcome back, myself, as others had. Though as a Christian I have obviously to disagree with you on the nature of the Koran I think you are a good man and are far more mature and gentlemanly in your responses than other Muslims here have been.
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Rationalist
written by fineliving56 , July 13, 2012
Believe me … there is nothing I dislike more then lying and hypocrisy … it just chip away at my patience to no end ….

Abc … is a third generation english born non Arab Muslim young pop who deep down is not bad and he is a little naive … he has a heart and likes to hide it to protect him self by showing provado and mud slinging …

He thinks he going to come here and teach me Arabic language … not just that … Quran Quraishy Arabic …amusing and cute …. lol

He said, I make up things as I go alone ..… but, he brings prooves from Wikipedia, where is hardly a place to bring truthful information from … Wiki is a place where they tell you right on top { feel free to correct and add to the information others added .} ??!!

On the other hand, I got my information from lifetime of Arabic schooling and actually lived AND STILL LIVING THE MUSLIM LIFE THAT HE IS WRITING ABOUT AND HEARD OF … LOL

Reading just the last posts himself and Reed posted I caught so many Arabic mistakes … that, and I do not have to need to verify from anywhere … anyone who knows arabic, will pick up, the mistakes him and Reed are posting … WoW

Like when Abc … listed the 3 parts to 4/34 to understand it in context and as he calls it …

# 3 … Arabic word .. Idribu .. Arabic root word is Daraba … that is WRONG

The root word for Idribu [ male order to beat ] is *DARB* … not Daraba like he Abc said [ it shows his ignorance in the language .. he cannot differentiate between tenses of verbs in Arabic ] …

Daraba is past tense single for male … it is not root word for Idrubo

Darabat is past tense single for females …

Darabu for past tense plural ..

Darabuhom [to beat many males ] plural bast tense …

darabuhunnah [to beat many females ] plural past tense ….

The word change spelling when tense is changed to order or present tense … I could on but it is too long …

He just wishes that there is no one here who could correct his mistakes in Arabic so he achieves his goal by putting a nice suit on Islam to hid the ugliness.

I do not blame him …. but we are here not to beautify anything, we are here to expose the ugly truth of Islam that has been hidden under the blanket of lies and hypocrisy for long time …. no more

I will watch out for all his posts and I will correct any attempt to change the truth and wording of language of Quran .

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Fineliving
written by Abc , July 13, 2012
Hey you can critisize my verb conjugations. That's ok!
If that's the only criticism then I will take that!
Any news on qwammuna and nushuz???
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Malem, abc et al
written by Rationalist , July 13, 2012
Malem, abc and other Muslims,

Denial without a valid reason is an excuse. Read M.A. Khan's book "Islamic Jihad- a legacy of forced conversion, imperialism, and slavery" with an open mind. He has described at length how your forefathers were forced/coaxed to accept Islam. Your forefathers were Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Sikhs, Pharsees, and Jains. He has provided valid references. Let us see how many of you can refute it.
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To Reed Wilson, Abc
written by Archpagan , July 13, 2012
Meaning of the word "iḍribūhunna" should be translated as 'corporal punishment' by applying the rule of harmonious construction for interpretation/translation. You are intellectually dishonest to the core, that's why you are obfuscating the matter. It is nobody's case that only Muslims beat their wife. But, divine sanction for wife beating is found under Islam only. Islam is under scrutiny here, not Muslims per se.
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Abc
written by fineliving56 , July 13, 2012
Since you asked so nicely … I will tell you the, news about the Arabic words '' Qwammuna '' and Nushuz '' .. they are both mentioned in 4/34 and they are the cause for millions of muslim women's problems, I like to add .

Qawwmmuna …with stress on the w… not to be mixed with Qawam with no stress on w … this one means [ stature or upright ]

qwwammuna ….. means …. a manager .. a guardian … in charge … a keeper …
When it is fallowed by the preposition "Ala" [ over , on ] … Qwwammuna Ala … it becomes to mean .." one person is stronger then anther ''…

This word is a word that Muhammad used in Quran in 4/34 to explain why Muslim men are mangers or guardian of Muslim women when He started the Aya by saying ,

'' men are superior over women so they can be in charge of them or [ maintenance of them because Allah has given preference [ Faddala ] to one [ men ] over the [ by given strength ] others [ women ] and because they spend from their money on them ….. "'

Some Imams lie and try to say … it is about only the issue of money … if a man is spending his money on a women, a man has the right to be in charge … but if the women makes the money then she is has the right to be in charge … strength has nothing to do with it … and their proof is when he said '' and they [ men] spend from their money on them [ women ]

Other Imams are more truthful and they do say Allah preferred men over women and they are superior in money and strengths and men ARE in charge of women … and their proves is hadeeth and Sirah of Muhammad that support Q - 4/34

I say to Muhammad and his fake Allah …. Dream on !!!

The Arabic word Nushuz is next
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Nushuz
written by fineliving56 , July 13, 2012
animosity , hostility , antipathy , repel , brutal treatment

It is a root word .. Nashaza is male past tense … Nashiza is female past tense ..
It is used in Q 4/34 when Muhammad/ Allah was explaining how to treat Muslim wives when they act in animosity toward their husbands or feeling antipathy toward them … and here the most hated and disgusting part of Quran that was a cause of ruined lives and not just for the poor beaten Muslim women women but for the Muslim men themselves ….

Continue of translation of $/34 from my first post …

"' … there for righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in [

the husbands] absence what Allah would have them guard . As to those

women on whose part you fear antipathy and disloyalty and ill - conduct ,

caution them,[ faozohunna ] and forsake them in beds and BEAT [

physically not mentally ]
them…. [ as I said the word lightly is no where to be found it was add between brackets ]

if they returned to OBEDIENCE seek not against them means.

Thank you abc for making me … write to explain all this all over again about 4/34 … I am finding out my anger will never go away against Muhammad … he did not foresee what would happen to muslim women all over Muslim world when he carelessly ordered beating women to gain their obedience … I just like to say I hate him with every fiber of me …
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Reed:Intellecually dishonest.
written by Reed Wilson , July 13, 2012
Archpagan. "Meaning of the word "iḍribūhunna" should be translated as 'corporal punishment' by applying the rule of harmonious construction for interpretation/translation".

Why sir? Why compel? It can be translated but more appropriate is 'counsel them'. Beating does not suit there. Why should be a God unkind to his subjects? Counseling helps more than beating.

"Only Muslim beat their wife". Where did you find Muslims? Christianity teaches love. But more Christians beating their wives even if they are not supporting them. But this is stupid debate. In Hindi there is a sying that women are to beaten. Hindus are not beating any body's wife.

Could you please repeat your 'parable of lost towel'. I lost it.

Once you beat wife you would know. Allah never asks you doing what you cannot do. لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّـهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا ۚ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ

"God does not burden any being with more than he is well able to bear: in his favor" shall be whatever good he does, and against him whatever evil he does".

Where is my intellect? Honesty or else, it is from God.

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Reed Wilson
written by Rationalist , July 13, 2012
Your God is unjust because in Quran he says 2 female witnesses is equal to 1 male witness!! Haven't we discussed this before n you went into hiding after that?
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Amazing!
written by Abc , July 13, 2012
Amazing to see:

[Quran 6:110] We control their minds and their hearts. Thus, since their decision is to disbelieve, we leave them in their transgressions, blundering.

That is why in the translations I see nothing but the truth, yet you see nothing but evil fineliving!
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Sensation: Old Shakespeare Handwiriting discoverd!
written by Gnostic , July 13, 2012
It appears to be a text rewritten for a musim audience.

Here is a quote:

"To beat or not to beat, that's here the question!"
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To Reed Wilson
written by Archpagan , July 13, 2012
I am not Allah, so, I can't say why Allah should be unkind to His subjects. The author of this piece as also poster ChrisLA has explained why it should mean 'hit'. The verse prescribes increasing quantum of punishment to tackle an obdurate wife. When admonishing or banishing from bed fails to bring her in line, you have to thrash her as the next step of action; that's the plain message of your God.

I have really no idea whether any Hindu scripture prescribe wife-beating. Also, I have no idea about the Hindi saying that women should be beaten up. In my mother tongue there is a saying ' To beat the maid (servant) to teach the wife (that you can be violent on her too)'. However, there is a popular story on how to tackle a callous son-in-law. Would you listen?

I used the legal jargon 'it is nobody's case' which you misunderstood. I meant to say nobody claims here that only Muslims beat their wife. But Islam or the Muslim society sanctions wife beating. In my country there is stringent law against domestic violence which to applicable to Muslims too.
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Allah had protected not only the script, but meaning as well
written by Flame , July 13, 2012
Dear commentators - I would like to draw your precious attention to this fatwa, basically saying : http://www.islamweb.net/emainp...&id=101597 "However, Allaah’s protection of the Quran did not stop there; He also safeguarded the original meaning." - so, daraba had 1500 years original meaning to "hit" and Allah protected this meaning. so you can trash all the modern apologies - they are outright lie.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 13, 2012
Rationalist. My post for you is detained by Adm. for review.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 13, 2012
Archpagan. "The author of this piece as also poster ChrisLA has explained why it should mean 'hit'.

You may follow ChrisLA. I did not say Hindu scripture. It is women there and not a wife.

I regard scripture as divine message. Even if it were in Hindu scripture, I would have considered it as contamination in original message.
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Not hiding.
written by Reed Wilson , July 13, 2012
Quran 2:282 is about fixed term borrowings. It doe not mean 2 females are equal to 1 male. Nor it means 1 maie was equal to 2 females.

I did not go on hiding. I was unable to post or even access this site for all this time. I could browse through anonymouse. I dont know why it happened. I missed you all during this period.
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Gonstic
written by fineliving56 , July 13, 2012
It is not a question .. it a statement … it is a fact … cold hard fact ..that smacks Muslim women right across the face …

It has never been in a question for 1400 hundred years and now for the last 3 years all of the sudden that that all what I hear !!! … the word beat [ idrub ] does NOT mean " beat" … what cold hard disgusting ... LIE !!!!

it could have been amusing … if it wasnt so cruel to right off … arace the pain of million of women and say their pain was **just a mistake ** … WOW

I have lived all my life in Islam and around Muslims in schools,family,courts,street,…understood Allah ordered the beating of wives when disobey …

NOW !!?? … NOW ??!! … beat has different meaning … like "to give an example"" .???? ..… AMZING

I do not blame new Muslims to be red in the face and ashamed of 4/34 . .. the shame push them to try to change the meaning of " beat " … where is honesty … where is truthfulness …

If they only new how much they hurt women when they deny beating women in a fact in Islam …. when they deny this fact in Quran …when they say, it all in our heads

They put, **saving the face of Quran and Allah ** over real physical hurt and life time of pain of Muslim wives and the children, witness the beatings


It really hurts and angers me to no end …

Nothing Muslim would say and do to fix this … accept acknowledgment of how wrong thses hurtful ayas in Quran …. AND DO SOMETHING TO change it …

to all Muslim readers …

OTHERE THEN '' PRINTING A NEW QURAN *WITHOUT* THE CRUEL ORDERS [ 60 % of it especially 4/34 ] AND TEACH IT TO ALL NEW GENERATION OF MUSLIMS TO TRY TO STOP AND ERASE ALL THE VOILENCE AGIENST WOMEN ,EX AND NON MUSLIMS, IT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTABLE … IT WILL BE NOT BE ACCEPTABLE …

THE CRITICISM … WILL … NOT STOP UNTIL …

total death of Islam going to be the only solution

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abc … we agree on something
written by fineliving56 , July 14, 2012
You amaze me too …. go figure !

I do not see, nothing but evil in Quran, as you put it, I have talked about good parts of Quran many times before in contrast to you .. you do not admit any thing wrong about all the cruel and unfair parts of Quran …

it;s just I see the whole picture with an eye of a critic seeing what is wrong with Quran … I do not see Quran with eyes of irrational love sick puppy .

Like the parts in Quran about takeing careing of one's parents and children and make zakat and help the poor… feed the poor … do not kill other Muslims if they stay Muslims , that is … … do not torture other Muslims be truthful with other Muslims …. do not lie and cheat in dealings in business dealing … do not steal … etc …

Too bad … almost each and every one of these good Aya … there is another to arase it's goodness with a cruel and violent other Aya that KILL IT ….. TO JUST EVAPORATE IT

For excmale … it is true Allah told Muslims to take care of their parents but *it has conditions* … * if the parants left Islam, Muslims supposed to shun them and stop talking to them and of course stop taking care of them * !!

Ayes like it are all over the Quran … that is why we are saying, only, a floyd human will do something like that … A reaL GOD who is worse praying to, … does not and should not make these kind of mistakes .

And please do not say the bible has that too … it only confirm Islam's shortcomings … it does not help it at all .

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fineliving telling storys
written by malem , July 14, 2012
Where in the Quran does it say if your parents leave Islam you cannot talk to them or care for them.....mmmm are you telling more stories again????
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 14, 2012
You were born Muslim. That's not exactly an achievement!
Yes you had the label of Islam around you but without iman, Islam is not complete.
You are still drifting and that is why you left Islam because of the lack of iman.
You see if you had worked on your iman the you would have experienced ihsan.
You have no idea what that is like.

"Muslims supposed to shun them and stop talking to them and of course stop taking care of them"
Don't be ridiculous.
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Shunning Non-Muslim Parents
written by ChrisLA , July 14, 2012
Surah 60 begins with the commandment to shun non-Muslims. Abraham is cited as a good example for Muslims, EXCEPT for his words to his father who was not a beleiver, "I shall implore forgiveness for you, although I can in no way protect you from Allah." (Surah 60:4) By this example and the qualification regarding Abraham's father, Muslims are instructed to shun all non-Muslims including their parents.
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It is really astonishing to me
written by fineliving56 , July 14, 2012
How the two Muslims, who has been defending Quran for the last few month , DO NOT KNOW what is in it … ONLY bits and pieces … here and there.

Abc and Malam …

You mean to tell me … you do not know about what, Quran , Surit al Yuba , 9/23 says …. ?????

"' O you who believe , do not take your fathers and brothers, as associates[ in trust or in confidence] if they [ the fathers and brothers ] choose disbelieve [ kifra] over faith, if any of they do so, then they are the oppressors .

As you can see … Muslims have to cut ties with their Fathers and brothers if they became kuffars or they will be branded from the oppressors !!!

I am glad I am here to tell you, Muslims on the ins and outs of Quran …

Did I here thank you ?
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Parable of the Lost Towel
written by Archpagan , July 14, 2012
Reed, I gathered that parable from a politician's lecture long time back while studying in the college. It goes like this:

A farmer somehow lost his towel. In reaction, he took a vow that he would not shave his face until the cost of towel is recouped by savings on it. After one month he had ½ inch long stubble all over his face. While resting under a tree he met a saffron-clad monk with a huge beard that covered his entire torso. The farmer became curious and started casting inquisitive glances at the monk. Sensing something amiss, the monk inquired –‘Will you say something, my son?’ The farmer reacted – ‘How many towels have you lost, my Lord?
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 14, 2012
At least let me translate that for you


9:23O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

how are you getting your position from the above.
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 14, 2012
As for such of the unbelievers as do not fight against you on account of your faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, Allah does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave toward them with full equity. Indeed, Allah loves those who act equitably. (Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)

Maybe you should cast your eyes over this, oh Quran expert!
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 14, 2012
Or even this:

We have enjoined upon man goodness toward his parents: his mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, and his weaning is within two years. Be grateful toward Me and toward your parents, with Me all journeys end. Yet should they (your parents) endeavor to make you ascribe divinity, side by side with Me to something of which you have no knowledge, then do not obey them. But even then bear them company with kindness in the life of this world and follow the path of those who turn toward me. (Surah Luqman 31:14-15)

Even if my parents told me to turn away from Islam or even asked me to commit to shirk, I am still to show kindness and bear them company!

Again the resident Arab so called expert is WRONG!
This is becoming a habit fineliving. What other things have you muddled up???
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 14, 2012
Archpagan. Thanks for PLT. You retrieved for me. And you advised Clement to include this parable in.... That is height of wits.

I am longing for safe return of Swamiji.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 14, 2012
Archpagan. You wrote "I have really no idea whether any Hindu scripture prescribe wife-beating. Also, I have no idea about the Hindi saying that women should be beaten up. In my mother tongue there is a saying ' To beat the maid (servant) to teach the wife (that you can be violent on her too)'. However, there is a popular story on how to tackle a callous son-in-law. Would you listen?

"I used the legal jargon 'it is nobody's case' which you misunderstood".

I really missed your point and hopped on non availability of muslims.

I can give scores of citations on punishing women in Hindu scripture. I repeat my stance as "Even if it were in Hindu scripture, I would have considered it as contamination in original message".

Give me popular story on how to tackle a callous son-in-law. Is that in Bengali?

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Reed Wilson- you are dishonest
written by Rationalist , July 14, 2012
Reed Wilson writes--Quran 2:282 is about fixed term borrowings. It doe not mean 2 females are equal to 1 male. Nor it means 1 maie was equal to 2 females.

2.282: O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

Why you do you lie, Reed? It clearly says "one male witness is equal to 2 female witnesses." Time to go into hiding again!!
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Rationalist
written by fineliving56 , July 14, 2012

Reed Wilson has been caught in so many lies about Quran here in IW, It should be named after him …I went after him guarding after his changing the translation of the Arabic words for long time and I exposed most of lies .

Like you said he is dishonest … but at least he is dishonest *gentlemen* who is kept his language in check … and that is valued ..

I will write about 2/282 … he is only rehashing his old lies about this Aya.

You might have noticed how he avoids addressing me directly … He is predictable.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 14, 2012
Rationalist. No it does not say "one male witness is equal to 2 female witnesses."
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 14, 2012
It does not provide 4 female for two males. Witness is required in adultery cases also. No male female there. Four females are equal to four males.

Witnesses are not required in other matters. Videos, DNA etc are enough. No male/female.

But if you gather 1 male is equal to 2 females or 4 females from 2:282 you have a right to have your opinion. You are rationalist.
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 14, 2012
Never mind Mr Wilson!
"Abc and Malam …

You mean to tell me … you do not know about what, Quran , Surit al Yuba , 9/23 says …. ?????

"' O you who believe , do not take your fathers and brothers, as associates[ in trust or in confidence] if they [ the fathers and brothers ] choose disbelieve [ kifra] over faith, if any of they do so, then they are the oppressors .

As you can see … Muslims have to cut ties with their Fathers and brothers if they became kuffars or they will be branded from the oppressors "

This is what you posted me! Incorrect in its translation and conclusion!
I don't think you should be saying anything!
Playing the holier than thau card!
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Abc
written by fineliving56 , July 14, 2012
Quran talked about parents over 70 times direct and indirect way … and all in positive way … so your example is not a revelation to any one …

Now .. your translation of 9/23 is WRONG but I do not blame you … you are only reading what you have available in tranclatns … and I will tell you why :

I hope you are interested in the truth … as I am … never mind what is the martial we have in our hands .. people have been known to lie to serve a propose .. that is why I search on my own, and then I form my own opinion to believe in … we have to search for truth from various places as you I hope you know .

I detected a streak of honesty in you, Reed and Malam lack and I appreciate that

So …in Surat al Tuba Aya 9/23 … there is 2 key Arabic words ..

1 - Awliya' a … 2 - Al Zaalimeen

Your translation for Awilya'a which, you got from other people translations is close but not quite …. Protector is not the closest meaning to the word Awliya'a , in fact it means '' Hami " or Yahmi '' …

The exact translation is '' to take confidence in and to associate with"

The other word Is "' Al zalimeen "' where the translatation you have got your translation from, is .. right out A LIE … it is deliberate tweak to lessen the blunt of the words Of Quran … Quran is notorious of bluntness … but of course, Hadeeth words are the ultimate in pure '' head on the head bluntness '' …

I have to say I do not blame them … it is shameful .

Believe me when I say … I have detected so many words in translation books of Quran from Arabic to English done by Muslims who live in the west and I have them right here with me … they target KEY WORDS in Quran …I have talked about in the past in IW, before you started posting .

Back to '' Al Zalimeen " … I dare any Arabic Muslim here to have the nerve to lie and say … Al zalimeen " …means "" wrong "'

IT IS COMPLETELY DEFERENT word then what you wrote …. go ahead and check of your self … check for your self …. Abc

The exact meaning of WRONG in Arabic … '' Kata'a '' or '' ithim " …

The exact meaning of OPPRESSORS in Arabic … is '' Al zalimeen " is plural adjective … comes from root word '' zulm '' …Oppress ,

As we see … the translation you have sited is wrong in 9/23 … [ I am not saying it was done by you .. you do not know Arabic … you write what you read in translation ] ..

The change of meaning of "Al Zalimeen" , was designed specifically to deny Quran's orders to make a rift in between a Muslim and his fathers and brothers if they left Islam and became unbelievers .

Abc … of course you can believe what you want and I really do not care if you do or not … but if you are really interested and you care about the truth then … go ahead and verify for your self by asking any Arabic person that you trust … this Question '' what is the exact meaning of '' Al zalimeen in English '' see if it means '' wrong ''




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mr
written by bill , July 14, 2012
How can Islam claim to be the religion of peace when everywhere there is only cruelty. massacre, strife and persecution? Show me one Islamic state where peace and prosperity hold sway. We are always told it is only a tiny minority of 'misguided' muslims do these acts but the religious leaders and teachers are frequently the progenitors of this violence and injustice against innocent people. They fulminate hostility to other religions, especially Jews and Christians and even against any Muslim that does not conformn to their particular view of religious correctness. They also declare fatwas against people who are not Muslims and live in distant countries, thereby encouraging Muslims to harm them. Also there must be quite high % of so called 'ordinary/moderate' muslims involved. However we raely hear from these protesting against extremism. How can they claim to have the perfect solution to everything when they cannot even live in peace among themselves.
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To Reed Wilson
written by Archpagan , July 14, 2012
No, the story titled ‘Praharena Dhananjaya’ is in Sanskrit. It goes thus:
A very wealthy man had four son-in-laws named Hari, Madhav, Pundarik-akshya and Dhananjay. All were indolent and bent on living off the wealth of father-in-law staying in in-law’s house with family. At first the father-in-law ignored the matter. But, things came to such a pass that all four remained in the in-law’s house for months together giving no inkling to go back home. Now, the father-in-law had to take some action. He first passed order that no butter would be served with meal. Hari got the message promptly and left hastily, but other three stayed on. Then, they were served food dishes on bare floor without sitting mats. Madhab left within days. Next, the remaining two were served coarse/stinking rice for food. Pundarik-akshya had now got it into brain and left, but Dhananjay, the most tenacious of all, refused to take note of the signals and stayed put.

Now, the father-in-law instructed the local youths that when his son-in-law would be on evening stroll in the locality they should pick a quarrel with him by treading his foot and deliver moderate to heavy thrashing. Things happened as planned. Dhananjay was now wiser to figure out who was behind it all and left the next early morning without a see-off with in-laws. The story is summed up in a couplet:

Havir-bina Harir-jati, bina pithena Madhava,
Kad-anneana Pundarik-akshya, Praharena Dhananjaya!
(Hari left deprived of butter, Madhava of seat, Pundarik-akshya because of bad rice and Dhananjaya of thrashing)
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Rationalist
written by fineliving56 , July 15, 2012
This Aya … 2/282 .. is no doubt is the Most HATED Aya in Quran to me .. even more hated then 4/34 …

Body abuse is not AS LASTING as MIND ABUSE …

A women who believes as a child she has a half a mind because even Allah tell her testimony is as good as only half a man … will act as much … she will only thing of her self as half a person … Girls in My Muslim society always told they are '' broken wings '' BECAUSE OF2/282

Reed being dishonest as he is … he is lying when he gives his own version ..and he is not even apologetic about it ….. I call it … "Reed's Quran " it does not exist, anywhere except in Reed's brain …

2/282 is long …I will start from where it concerning women …. it says "" ..and get two witnesses out of your own men and if two witnesses are not their then a man and two women such as you choose from for witnesses, so that if one [ women ] witness got deluded "Tadilla" [ got lost in remembering ] the other [ women ] can RIMIND HER…"

As we can see … Women are nothing but half a humen in Islam … who cannot even remember as much a man, can when transection heppen in front of them .. or a crime .

It makes me sick …

Later … I will write about an event that happen to me that proofs the opposite of Quran's claim … I might have written about it before …but it worse repeating to prove Quran/ Allah/ Muhammad all wrong about the mind of women …

peace
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RW is back!
written by Gnostic , July 15, 2012
Did he escape from lunatic asylum? Or is he resurrected from coma? There is no therapy against such a stubbornness! Stubbornness, this is the right term to describe muslims who are almost all fundamentalists at heart as well as other fundamentalists. We all should realise that this is a desease!
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Reed
written by Rationalist , July 15, 2012
Instead of forming your own opinion quote from Quran. In the past when I dragged you further you said something like this- " It seems Allah says one male equal to 2 female witnesses, but I am not sure. Regarding why he said like that I am not Allah." You wrote exactly on similar lines. Forget about DNA evidence-- a kaffir technology.

Read again "...and if there are not 2 men then a man and 2 women, so that if one of them errs then the other cam remind her."..... why didn't Allah say "if there are not 2 men then 2 women"?

abc, Malem help your comrade Wilson!!!! A friend in need is a friend in deed
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RWs Achievements!
written by Gnostic , July 15, 2012
Anybody who reeds RWs comments must think that muslims are all stubborn idiots and braindeads! Thank you, RW for contributing so much against islam wihtout realising it!
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bill...
written by Amboyduke , July 15, 2012
...it is rather ironic, bill, that the term "religion of peace" was unheard of before 9/11 when George Bush coined the phrase when referring to the "religion" that attacked America in 2001.
Before he used that phrase, it was always referred to "the religion of submission".
That is indeed it's rightfull definition.
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 15, 2012
Here is the transliteration of 9:23
Transliteration:yaa 'ayyuhaa 'alladhena 'aamano laa tattakhidho 'aabaa' -kum wa- 'ikhwaan -kum awliyaa' 'in istah.abbo al- kufr calaa al- 'emaan wa- man yatawalla -hum min -kum fa- 'olaa'ika hum az.- z.aalimon

Awliyaa plural. Wali is single.
A wali has numerous meaning depending on context.

Zalimoon. Somebody who commits zulm.
Again zulm can be defined as opression, unfair, unjust etc etc.
Like what asad is doing to his people. Acts of zulm.
Loads of definitions depending on context.


Even with the translation. 9:23 does not tell you to abandon your non Muslim parent(s). In Islam a Muslim male can marry ahle kitab. Also the ahle kitab can keep their religion and practice it fully.
Now if they had a child, 9:23 is not telling that child to hate or break contact with mum because she was a non Muslim.
You are way off the mark in your interpretation if 9:23.
60:8 and 31:14-15 are the correct interpretations of a Muslim child and non Muslim parents.
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abc
written by Rationalist , July 15, 2012
What if a Muslim woman wants to marry a non-Muslim man? Is that permissible according to Quran?
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 15, 2012
Rationalist. You ask ABC " What if a Muslim woman wants to marry a non-Muslim man? Is that permissible according to Quran?

When both of them are Mushrikeen, which they are normally, Quran does not stop them.
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Reed Wilson
written by Rationalist , July 15, 2012
Reed, you love to escape from answering my question on male and female witnesses Quote from Quran, which makes it clear that 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses You are an escapist.

P.S: I have studied psychology as well. So I know how ur mind works
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Reed 2.221
written by Rationalist , July 15, 2012
Reed Wilson: When both of them are Mushrikeen, which they are normally, Quran does not stop them.

My take: You are disowning your own Quran.... Read this 2.221 (Yusuf Ali) "Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire......

You say it is OK for them to marry, according to Quran. However, Quran orders Muslim men not to give their women to unbelievers in marriage until they believe. This means a muslim woman has no choice to make her own decision. Even if she wants to marry a non-believer Quran opposes tooth and nail.

Reed, use your brain and judgmental analysis when your reply. Your analysis of Quran is far from truth. It seems you need a lecture from a Kuffr like me.
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2.230- filthiest of all verses wrt marriage
written by Rationalist , July 15, 2012
Reed, Mallem, and abc,

Don't you think 2.230 is the filthiest of all surahs related to marriage? I quote it

2.230 Yusuf Ali " So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her....."

Oh how pathetic and irrational is your Allah! Can't you guys think how ridiculous this verse is...
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To Rationalist
written by Archpagan , July 15, 2012
You are absolutely right. Q:2.230 makes Islam the religion for the barbarians. Few years back, a Muslim couple of W B had to commit suicide in order to escape that evil Aya and save their honor and dignity.
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Archpagan
written by Rationalist , July 15, 2012
If you ask Quran-only Muslims regarding 2.230, they say 1) there is no need to divorce, 2) Allah's command to be honored.

Let's see RW, Malem, n abc's expert comments
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Abc
written by fineliving56 , July 15, 2012
I am glad you agree, now, that the first translation you wrote of 9/23 and their, two key words, were not correct … Kata'a is not Zulm … Wrong is not oppressed ….

Of course, the context, has to be in a consideration in translating words but that does not mean it changes the meaning of individual words like it was done in the translation you have brought for 9/23

I disagree with you on 9/23 … it DOES, clearly, say to a Muslim to not take his father or his brother in confident if he is a kafir .. and if he does that anyway, the Muslim becomes an oppressor in the eyes of Allah …

That is not acceptable at all, and it should not be acceptable to you too .. or anyone … it is wrong !

You do not realize something! … a Muslim, to be called a Zalim [oppressor for male ] is a big insult … why do you think Muslims turn on their family and they try to kill them, if they left Islam … it is written in the book of Quran … even when Quran does not say to kill your father …but they do so from shame and condemnation By Allah … believe I know What I am talking about .
To call a Muslim a Zalim by Allah IT self, when a muslim take his father in confident or associates with, is wrong and cause nothing but disaster waiting to happen amongst families …

I do not care about examples of many Muslims who accept there Kufars Fathers … if they did , that only because they love them and they hate to loose them even if they know they are kufars … no thanks To Allah and 9/23 .
I absolutely, reject a God [ Allah ] who tells me to reject my father who raised me or my brother who I was raised with and love, because they do not believe like I do … this is the most clear picture of teaching to discriminate between blood if I ever see one .


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To Reed Wilson
written by Archpagan , July 15, 2012
Hi Reed, see how many fists are raised against you and why I offered to call you ‘I W Sandbag’. You can see instances of woman/wife-beating in Hindu scriptures, but I bet those are not prescriptive in nature or portrayed as ideal behavior.

BTW, it did not occur to me earlier that there is a Bengali story too on son-in-law bashing. It’s somewhat crude but more entertaining and goes by the name of Gopal Bhanr , a court jester of 18 th Century. The storyline goes thus:
Gopal’s son-in-law stationed himself in Gopal’s house giving no sign to go back home. So, Gopal hit upon a plan. Before leaving for the King’s court, he called the son-in-law secretly and said- ‘My son, everyday we are losing lemons due to theft; so in the evening, please keep watch over our lemon tree in the farm,.’ On his return from King’s court in the evening, Gopal feigned illness and wished to have a drink of lemon juice from his own tree. So his wife proceeded to the farm to collect lemon from the tree. After a few minutes, Gopal heard a commotion and then a frenzied voice - ‘Dad, dad, the thief is caught, the thief is caught’. Gopal proceeded lazily with a torch in hand and on reaching the spot focused the light on the ‘thief’. By that time, some more people had gathered. Everybody saw the son-in-law holding his mother-in-law in tight embrace from behind. Before the break of dawn the son-in-law left without bidding adieu.
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Phenomenal Powers
written by Yibel , July 15, 2012
Sura 31, a Makkan sura, is named for Luqman the wise. So who was Lugman the wise? Does anyone know? He is mentioned only one time in the Qur'an.

Abdur-Rahman bin Harmalah told this story: “A black man came to Sa‘id bin Al-Musayyib to ask him a question, and Sa‘id bin Al-Musayyib said to him: ‘Do not be upset because you are black, for among the best of people were three who were black,’” including “Luqman the Wise, who was a black Nubian with thick lips.”

Luqman tells his son not to join partners with Allah, “for false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing” (v. 13). One would think that murder, rape, child molesting and genocide are all some of the most appalling crimes. But, NO, there is something which outweighs all of these crimes put together: It is the crime of shirk” – associating partners with Allah.

Words of Lugman the wise: "The most hideous of voices is the braying of the ass."
Yes, Lugman was wise. Muhammad was an ass.

Q.31:10 He (Al-'Aliy, the Sublime) has created the heavens without any visible pillars, that you see, and has thrown down (alka) on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you.

Q.31:30 Do you not see how Al-Kabir, the Great, causes the night to pass into the day and the day pass into night? He has pressed the sun and moon into His service, each running for an appointed term. Al-Kabir is cognizant of all your actions....

He has Phenomenal Cosmic (Comic) Powers in an Iddy Biddy Living Space!!! The Genii (Jinn) in the Lamp.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 15, 2012
Archpagan. You write to Rationalist "You are absolutely right. Q:2.230 makes Islam the religion for the barbarians. Few years back, a Muslim couple of W B had to commit suicide in order to escape that evil Aya and save their honor and dignity".

Did they divorce the way Quran suggests? It is long procedure. Almost impossible to commence. I will tell you how but not now.

Mohammedans are under the wrong impression that divorcing is husbands prerogative whereas it here nor there in Quran. The divorce of Muhammadans is hadis based. Then why the Aya is dragged in between? Hadis is responsible for the tragedy.

On one friendship Sunday Germane came in my hostel room and started looking in personal album. I noticed tears in her eyes on seeing my pictures with Mrs. Wilson. She explained that her parents are separated. They are not even divorced.

Archpagan you write "Hi Reed, see how many fists are raised against you and why I offered to call you ‘I W Sandbag’.

Reed is all the more thankful for your concern. He does not feel impact of the fists as all of them are hitting Quran and he is not author of Quran. If he takes it as personal he is not doing so according to Quran. If he feels impact it would be his mistake.

0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 16, 2012
Yibel. You write" Sura 31, a Makkan sura". How can one say that?

Hadis tells such absurd things. There too, there is no consensus. One hadis says Maida was revealed in Makkah, the other will say it was in Madina.

I did not find any hadis even where Muhammad is shown saying that such and such sura arrived in Makkah or Madina. Khudri will say that. Who is Khudri to say that? Quran does not leave anything about Quran on speculation. It tells it is from Allah, revealed through a messenger and it is in Arabic language. The name Quran also you will find in Quran.

There is no word Bible in the Bible.

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Re: Aboce
written by Gnostic , July 16, 2012

" There is no word Bible in the Bible. "

This argument is often used by muslims. Then they say that the word "Tipitaka" is not used in the Tipitaka (the buddhist canon), In contrast, "Quran" is used in the Quran.

Bible means a papyrus roll and tipitaka means three baskests (which contain the scriptures). So what?

In contrast, can we conclude anything from the fact that the word Quran DOES exist in the quran? DOES this really mean that the quran is true?

Not it does not because it does not reveal anything truly important. It is simply useless nonsense.
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Addendum
written by Gnostic , July 16, 2012

Because there are no elaborated teachings in the quran muslims have no choice but to refer to such nonsense.

Is "War and Peace" by Leo Tolstoy a holy book or better than the bible because the words "War" and "Peace" and "and" do appear in the book? Do you think that this is a meaningful discussion?

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Reed n likes
written by Rationalist , July 16, 2012
Reed Wilson is a proven escapist. He is not able to answer my questions on 2.282, 2.221 & 2.230!! Typical Paki Muslim

Conclusion: Muslims know that Quran is illogical in stupid in many instances, but they defy commonsense & logic n cheat their own soul. Otherwise, they would be able to answer. See, how abc & Malem also have gone into hibernation.
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Rationalist
written by abc , July 16, 2012
What are you in about!
I'm in the middle of chatting with fineliving about something else. If you crave my attention then wait your turn!
Bozo!
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 16, 2012
           
Surah 9. At-Tauba, Ayah 23



يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا آبَاءَكُمْ وَإِخْوَانَكُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ إِنِ اسْتَحَبُّوا الْكُفْرَ عَلَى الْإِيمَانِ ۚ وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِنْكُمْ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ


Asad:O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take your fathers and your brothers for allies if a denial of the truth is dearer to them than faith: for those of you who ally themselves with them - it is they, they who are evildoers! 31 
Malik:O believers! Do not take your fathers and your brothers as your friends if they prefer Kufr (unbelief) over Iman (belief); for those who turn away from this commandment shall be considered wrongdoers.
Pickthall:O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers.
Yusuf Ali:O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above faith: if any of you do so they do wrong.
Transliteration:yaa 'ayyuhaa 'alladhena 'aamano laa tattakhidho 'aabaa' -kum wa- 'ikhwaan -kum awliyaa' 'in istah.abbo al- kufr calaa al- 'emaan wa- man yatawalla -hum min -kum fa- 'olaa'ika hum az.- z.aalimon

There you can pick whichever you want. It does not specify you have to abandon your parents. You cannot have them as your awliyya otherwise you will be acting like a zalim. It's a simple instruction but it does not specify you must break relations.
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Fineliving
written by abc , July 16, 2012
As for such of the unbelievers as do not fight against you on account of your faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, Allah does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave toward them with full equity. Indeed, Allah loves those who act equitably. (Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)


We have enjoined upon man goodness toward his parents: his mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, and his weaning is within two years. Be grateful toward Me and toward your parents, with Me all journeys end. Yet should they (your parents) endeavor to make you ascribe divinity, side by side with Me to something of which you have no knowledge, then do not obey them. But even then bear them company with kindness in the life of this world and follow the path of those who turn toward me. (Surah Luqman 31:14-15)


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Abc … if 9/23 is acceptable to you … it is not to me .. it makes me heart sickened
written by fineliving56 , July 16, 2012
What is the difference … ABC ????

Between "Do not befriend or associate with your KAFIR father " and "" abandon your kafir father "" … you want to split hair have at it !
Your acting as if there is a huge difference between the two … and there is not !!??

The fact is …I WILL BE "" abandoning my father when I do not associate with him or .. visit him …..give him money or able to barrow money from him … leave my Muslim kids with him …have dinners with him that is harsh treatment !!

When you do not ""befriend "" someone … you are out of their lives, you are alienated from all aspect of their lives .. [notice I am using the words from your translation you sited ] …

All the Ayas that Quran, orders Muslims to take care of parents .. in my opinion … 9/23 … just slice off the goodness, right off of it …

In my eyes, It makes Allah small and pathetic .. as if Allah FEARS loosing Muslims to their kufir Fathers and that is why IT ordered to not befriend one's father …

Love of parent should be unconditional .. just like the love of children .. and Allah puts a condition in loving one's parent .

If Allah cannot teaches Muslims unconditional love to ones father or brother … this Allah, is no God … that Allah is no perfection like IT claim to be .

The perfect God would tell people to accept each other as they are and to be good to each other, no mater how or who or what, they believe in or do not believe in !

Abc … We are not made out of copy machine that, think the same … and Allah should know that ..… not every one of us going to get with the program called Islam.

If this program *Islam* tells me to not befriend and associate with my fathers if he becames a kafir, I will not listen and I will do the opposite because I know it is WRONG and Quran is WRONG and Allah the imagery friend of Muhammad is WRONG .
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abc
written by Rationalist , July 16, 2012
Don't worry abc, you may answer those question after your next Hajj pilgrimage! Make sure you get respect from Arabs for they treat non-Arab Muslims like junk.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 16, 2012
Gnostic. You quoted RW as " There is no word Bible in the Bible. " and add "This argument is often used by muslims".

It was not my argument nor I was proving anything. It is just information.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 17, 2012
Rationalist. You write "It clearly says "one male witness is equal to 2 female witnesses." in verse 2:282. I always rejected your interpretation. This is going on for 3 years. You exult on your victory. You bring various translation of the verse in your support.

Why dont we elect an arbiter?
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 17, 2012
Fineliving. Thanks for "Your always maintained a gentlemanly level of discussion other Muslims have failed at that". There is no reason to be otherwise.

You are saying "Too bad you maintained the same excuses about the word " beat" in Quran that I have refuted in finality before … with all proves and logic". I contested the point according to my understanding. If it is too bad, I may be too bad.

I quote you "I know it hurts Reed …. how Your Allah did not have the care for the women to protect them from the already brutal man's world … but .. you have to deal with it … like we women had to still do … Deal with it."

I am not supposed to comment there. I feel hitting or counseling is not a big deal. In other metamorphosed scriptures we find cutting nose of women, stoning her to death, shaving her head or even burning her alive for similar offenses.

Sorry fineliving for not attending to your posts earlier. I dont know how. Jye, a learned poster has complained " Reed did not answer my question". He is asking why every translator is translating beat. It is a question. I will Inshallah answer.

Your comments on my posts and directing questions to me is my proud privilege. Thanks for 'welcome back'.

I will meet God and he will tell us all what we differ.
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Re: RW
written by Gnostic , July 17, 2012
You wrote:
Gnostic. You quoted RW as " There is no word Bible in the Bible. " and add "This argument is often used by muslims".

It was not my argument nor I was proving anything. It is just information.

What use has this information if you dont want to prove anything with it? An information wiithout prove is useless! This is just what I wanted to say: That your words are useless and senseless!
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Reed Wilson
written by Rationalist , July 17, 2012
I think just like your illiterate Prophet you have shunted growth in numerical analysis. Read this again from 2.282:

"...if there are NO 2 men, then 1 MAN and 2 WOMEN, so that if one forgets the other can remind her." Read it again

Allah says it because he thinks women forget n so a female witness needs another female witness to remind her.....

Hey Allah you ruined your own children (Muslims). They neither have logic nor commonsense to understand simple things.
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some clarification
written by Yibel , July 17, 2012
on the word "bible." It simply means a collection of writings. These can be anything from scriptural (sacred texts of a religion) to any book that is authoritative in its field.

The word "bible" is derived from the name of the Phoenician post city, Byblos (present day Lebanon), from which Egyptian papyrus was exported to Greece.

The Bible does not refer to itself as Bible because the word means a collection of books or scrolls.
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clarification continued
written by Yibel , July 17, 2012
above post should have read "Phoenician PORT city" I was in a hurry and didn't proof read.

Reed, the chronological order of the Qur'an that I use is the one accepted by scholars at the world's chief center of Islamic learning, Al-Azhar in Cairo. You will learn much more by reading the Qur'an in chronological order - the order in which it was originally revealed - than the scrambled, illogical, devoid of time, circumstance, and place, longest to shortest surah form.

The early Makkan surahs are (in order) 96, 68 ,73, 74, 1, 111, 81, 87, 92, 89, 93, 94, 103, 100, 108, 102, 107, 109, 105, 113, 114, 112, 53, 80, 97, 91, 85, 95, 106, 101.

As for Khudri, is it Sa'd ibn Malik ibn Sinan al-Khazraji al-Khudri (an Ansari from
the original inhabitants of Yathrib/Madinah) that you are referring to?
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri is one of the narrators of hadith most frequently quoted (with over 1100 narrations).

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri narrates that Muhammad said, "He who fasts for a day in the Path of Allah, Allah will keep him away from Hell by a distance of seventy years of journey." from An-Nasa'i

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri narrated that Muhammad said, "The lasting good deeds are: (the saying of) La ilaha ilallah, Subhan Allah, Allahu Akbar, Alhamdulillah, and La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah." related from An-Nasa'i
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 17, 2012
Yibel. You are saying "The Bible does not refer to itself as Bible because the word means a collection of books or scrolls".

Only author of the Bible can make such an enunciation that why he didnt use the word there in his book. Yibel and RW are not qualified to do that.

Bible means book or books. Hence bibliography, bibliometrics, bibliotheqe, biblophobia, bibliomania etc
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...
written by Reed Wilson , July 17, 2012
Gnostic. "What use has this information if you dont want to prove anything with it? An information without prove is useless!

Information is information for its user. Proof can be given when you ask for it. Yibel has given proof above.

"This is just what I wanted to say: That
your words are useless and senseless!

Which word is senseless? What do consider senseless in "There is no word Bible in the Bible' . Word 'there' is not senseless, 'is' is not senseless, 'no' is not senseless, 'word ' is not senseless and bible is not senseless. A word is never senseless Mr. literate.
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 17, 2012
malem. You write " Muslims do not read the Quran? Maybe in your little world, but here they all do".

It is good news. Mine is not 'little world'. Muslims are not generally reading Quran as should be read. They memorize Quran. They do Qirat. Nazra, Tajweed and what not.

Bulk of Muslims (I call them Muhammadans) follow hadis which is clear rejection of Quran. Allah himself said:

وَقَالَ الرَّسُولُ يَا رَبِّ إِنَّ قَوْمِي اتَّخَذُوا هَذَا الْقُرْآنَ مَهْجُورًا

1. "And the messenger will say, .O my Lord, my people had taken this Qur‘an as deserted".

2. "And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account".
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Why every translator translating 'beat'?
written by Reed Wilson , July 17, 2012
Dear Jye. Your question which I did not answer is most intelligent, pertinent and simple I came across throughout deliberation on the verse.

For not less than 3 years the issue of translation figures again and again. Nobody asked this simple question as why every translator is translating beat.

My friend you know that translation is done by Muhammadan professionals. They care for the market stakes for selling their product. Quran translations are sold for their suitability to respective sects.

You will find people praising translations. Allah is relegated.

Now one thing is common that more than 95% of Muhammadans are hadis followers and Quran rejectors (my friend duh-swami felt that RW is loner). If you reject hadis you deserve to be killed. If you reject Quran, no punishment.

You know brother that in hadis the translation is beating. Not only that the so called 'role model' Muhammad of hadis is shown beating his beloved wife Aisha.

In such circumstances who can take the risk of translating other wise. They will ignore all other meanings of the word.

Your question is for translators who did that. Still I submit what I consider the possible reason.
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some questions for Reed Wilson
written by Yibel , July 18, 2012
Why do you say that "hadis which is clear rejection of Quran" ?

Please give proofs of this statement. Show some comparisons where hadis (ahadith) contradicts the Qur'an.

What is "Qirat. Nazra, Tajweed" ?

"Now one thing is common that more than 95% of Muhammadans are hadis followers and Quran rejectors " Where did you get this information from? Muhammadans are followers of Muhammad - therefore - Muslims. They follow the Qur'an as told to them by the imams. The ahadith are just additional sayings and stories of the life of Muhammad. Since he is said to be the perfect man by your stone-gawd, and you are ordered by this stone-gawd to obey and emulate Muhammad in all things, what is wrong with following the ahadith and sunnah of your one and only prophet?

And please give surah for the following:

1. "And the messenger will say, .O my Lord, my people had taken this Qur‘an as deserted".

2. "And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account".
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Reed Wilson …
written by fineliving56 , July 18, 2012
You still talking about others possible meanings of the word "' Beat"' in Quran and ,it looks like, I still, have to explain to you, that the word Beat in Quran came as *single* word not *compounded word* and that is why the only possible meaning for '' Beat '' is TO BEAT A WIFE .. not '' to give an example [ daraba Mathalan] …

Again sinse you are still insesting on doing that … I like to ask you ..

Can you translate to me 4/34 in it's context … again , please ? … You say, it might mean '' to give an example '' … let us see if you can do that …

Can you FIT the meaning of the word * beat *, as "' to give an excmple '' in Surah Al Nisa 4/34 …




Sinse you still saying that .
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Fineliving
written by Malem , July 18, 2012
The Surahs meaning is to scorge or condemn the action , you are just trying to make a case to say it means beat so someone will listen to your story....
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Malam
written by fineliving56 , July 18, 2012
Malam, you give dishonesty a higher level I haven't seen before !

Idrobuhunna is NOT condemn and you know it !!… but because you are a muslim who practice Taqqya, you lie like that …

I have written a post about this complete lie that you wrote about, , and the post never was shown awhile ago .

No … Idrobuhunna is *NOT* condemn ….

idrobohunna IS BEAT … IT IS BEAT
.. IT will never be *CONDEMN *

As you can read below, *Idrubuhunna* and *Adana* does not mean the same according to all dictionaries that I have … like Concise Oxford ..and others … beside I do not need a dictionary to tell me this truth, but I looked it up and brought a proof to show, your lie !!

They all say, that these two words are completely different Arabic words … so no matter how many times you post this lie and how much you wish it to be true , it will not …

so again …

CONDEMN ----------> IS -----------> ADANA , HAKAMA ALA , SHJABA

BEAT ----------------> IS -----------> IDRUB [ IDROBUHUNNA ] , KABATA [PHYSICALLY]


I challenge you Malam!! … to name me a dictionary that says that
*idrobuhunna or Idrub TO MEAN , * CONDEMN *…

Aren't you ashamed to lie like that ?





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Lots of meanings
written by --- , July 18, 2012

The meanings of English word scourge are same as you mention. But in 4:34 the Arabic word وَاضْرِب is used. It has following meanings:

•To smack without harshness.
•To discipline.
•To strike lightly.
•To counsel
•To relate story
•To give example.
•A kind advice or a parable.

For example:

•وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ
Tell them the story of the people of the town to whom Messengers came. ((36:13)

•وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا رَّجُلَيْنِ جَعَلْنَا لِأَحَدِهِمَا جَنَّتَيْنِ
Tell them the parable of the two men. To one of them We had given two gardens of vines surrounded by the palm trees with a piece of farm land between them (18:32)

•وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا قَرْيَةً
•God tells a parable about a secure and peaceful town…. (16:112)

•وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا رَّجُلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا
•God tells a parable about two men…… (16:76)

•وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا
And present to them the example of the life of this world…. (18:45)

•وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْن
“And Allah presents an example of those who believed: the wife of Pharaoh.." (66:11)

•إِذَا ضَرَبُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ
“Do not copy those who deny, and say of their brethren….. (3:156)

•نظُرْ كَيْفَ ضَرَبُوا لَكَ الْأَمْثَالَ فَضَلُّوا فَلَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ سَبِيلًا
See what similes they strike for thee: (17:48)

•انظُرْ كَيْفَ ضَرَبُوا
See what kinds of comparisons they make for thee! (25:9)

•وَلَمَّا ضُرِبَ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ مَثَلًا إِذَا
“When the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamor thereat (in ridicule)! (43:57)

Dont beat her. But if you are out to beat, you dont need scriptural license. Quite many beat their beloved wives without believing in Quran.
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Fineliving
written by Malem , July 18, 2012
Show me where the words you use, are stated the same exactly in the Quran and I will answer you.
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TO ALL '' NON MUSLIM '' READERS
written by fineliving56 , July 18, 2012
I want to implore you all, to *NOT* TO BELIEVE THE POST above TITLED '' LOTS OF MEANINGS

IT IS NOTHING BUT ABSOLUTE *LIE* designed to confuse and put doubt in the meaning of '' idrubuhunna '' in Q 4/34 and.
They think when that happens, people will have batter opinion of Quran and Islam, then the bad one and the correct one that it has right now …

reputation is very important to Quran and Islam, without it has nothing
.

Please …

these Muslims here are DISHONEST AND UNTRUSTWORTHY and they are proven, every time they say the Arabic word '' idrubuhunna '' has different meaning other then physically '' beating '' wives

As long as, I am still able to post and read here , I PROMISE I will continue to expose, the blatant and unashamedly *lies* these Muslims are spreading …

they have no way to change the hard cold inhumane facts in the disgusting Quran, other then the put out the old excuse '' the message of Quran is lost in translation ''

Such dissipation is so clear

*They take advantage of fact that most Muslims have no knowledge of the Arabic of Quran … they try to put out untrue meaning of words of Quran *

Thank you all
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To all non Muslims readers .. Let us have an experiment on Q 4 /34
written by fineliving56 , July 18, 2012
Dishonest Muslims are lying and saying that "idrobuhunna" [ beat ] might have other meaning in it's context then '' physically beat wives '' … I will do an experiment and translate 4/34, by replacing the real meaning of '' idrobuhunna" , with others meaning that The Muslims here and *try to say* …

Q … 4/34

'' Men have better rank [ superior] then women, because

Allah has given[ strength] to one[ men] more then the

other [women], and because they support them from

their means. Therefore, the righteous women devoutly

obedient, and guard in[ their husband] absence what

Allah would have them guard. As of those women on

whose part you fear antipathy[ rejection ],* caution*[

worn ] them, [ if that does not work ] next, * abandon

their beds * [ if that does not work, [next] ……. /// here

comes my experiment /// …… *GIVE AN EXAMLE

* ….. , but if they returned to obedience, seek not

against them means [ of punishment ] truly Allah the

most high, most large .

Now, as we read 4 /34 … I ask all of you, non Muslim, readers , does the meaning Muslim liars trying to suggest '' give an example '' MAKE ANY SENCE IN THE CONTXT OF 4/34 ?????

Does it ? …

Please respond and let put this to rest and expose these Muslims as the liars they are .

Thank you

I will go through all the compounded [ wrong] meanings that they post posted
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Please
written by fineliving56 , July 19, 2012
Can you post my post you just took away …

I am exposing the lies that Muslims are saying about 4/34

It is an experiment !

Thank you
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Why does RW say that "hadis which is clear rejection of Quran"
written by Reed Wilson , July 19, 2012
Yes Yibel you are asking:
1.Why do you say that hadis is clear rejection of Quran? Show some comparisons where hadis (ahadith) contradicts the Qur'an as proof.
2.What is "Qirat. Nazra, Tajweed" ?
3.How you say that more than 95% of Muhammadans are hadis followers and Quran rejectors? Where did you get this information from?
4.Since Muhammadans were followers of Muhammad, a perfect man, Allah has asked to emulate Muhammad in all things through ahadith, why they are not Muslims?
5.What is the sura and verse number of Quran where “And the messenger will say, .O my Lord, my people had taken this Qur‘an as deserted"?
All of them are healthy and honest questions. They show the genuine enquiry.
Your first question is not only very important it calls for volumes. I will nutshell the answer and shall elaborate any point on your asking.
When Christian I knew Quran says that Doomsday or Hour or Qiama will come all of a sudden, it is kept secret, its all signs have come and the messenger is asked to declare to people that only Allah has the knowledge of the Hour. Please see the verses:
“Only God has the knowledge of the Hour. He sends rain from the heavens, and knows what is in the mothers' wombs. No one knows what he will do on the morrow; no one knows in what land he will die. Surely God knows and is cognizant”. 31/34
“They ask you about the Hour: "When is its determined time?" Say: "Only my Lord has the knowledge. No one can reveal it except He. Oppressive will it be for the heavens and the earth. When it comes, it will come unawares." They ask you about it as if you were in the know. You tell them: "Only God has the knowledge." But most people do not know. 7/187.
“Are they waiting for the Hour of Doom to suddenly approach them? Its signs have already appeared. How will they then come to their senses when the Hour itself will approach them? 47/18
“Do they feel safe from God's overwhelming torment or of the sudden approach of the Day of Judgment while they are unaware? 12/107
“The Hour of Resurrection is coming. I have willed to keep the time of its coming secret so that everyone may be recompensed in accordance with his effort”. 20/15
In contradiction to all above we find hundreds of ahadis telling signs of Qiamat and that it is not commencing all of a sudden. The words given in the mouth of the messenger were never spoken by Muhammad of hadis. I quote one hadis:
Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 178:
Narrated 'Amr bin Taghlib:
The Prophet said, "One of the portents of the Hour is that you will fight with people wearing shoes made of hair; and one of the portents of the Hour is that you will fight with broad-faced people whose faces will look like shields coated with leather."
Please also read Bukhari, V 1, B 3, Number 81, V 4, B 52, Number 177, Vol.4, Book 52, Number 180, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 788:

I will come to answers of other questions in following posts.


0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 19, 2012
Yibel. My answer is under review.
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Reed Wilson exposed
written by Rationalist , July 19, 2012
Folks,

In the discussion forum of the article "Muslim women's lucky number: lucky to be beaten by husband" dated 16 December 2010, Reed replied to my question on why in 2.282 one male witness is equal to 2 female witnesses.... Here is his answer. You can verify it.

"I think (I think) God is telling here that males have better memory. It is yet to be proved. A believer believes it as he believes in skies without even seeing one sky." (emphasis mine)

Basically, his mind acknowledges that Allah is making an error in wrt his judgment on memory. He is afraid of further analysis. Anyway, he is caught!!
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Hadis contradicts Quran.
written by Reed Wilson , July 19, 2012
Yibel you are asking 5 questions. All of them are healthy and honest questions. They show the genuine inquiry. Let me answer your first “Why do you say that hadis is clear rejection of Quran? Show some comparisons where hadis (ahadith) contradicts the Qur'an as proof.

When Christian, I knew Quran says that Doomsday or Hour or Qiama will come all of a sudden, it is kept secret, its all signs have come and the messenger is asked to declare to people that only Allah has the knowledge of the Hour. Please see the verse:

“They ask you about the Hour: "When is its determined time?" Say: "Only my Lord has that knowledge. No one can reveal it except He. Oppressive will it be for the heavens and the earth. When it comes, it will come unawares." They ask you about it as if you were in the know. You tell them: "Only God has the knowledge." But most people do not know. 7/187.

In contradiction to all above we find hundreds of ahadis telling signs of Qiamat and that it is not commencing all of a sudden. The words given in the mouth of the messenger were never spoken by Muhammad of hadis. I quote one hadis:

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 178:
Narrated 'Amr bin Taghlib:
The Prophet said, "One of the portents of the Hour is that you will fight with people wearing shoes made of hair; and one of the portents of the Hour is that you will fight with broad-faced people whose faces will look like shields coated with leather."

Please also read Bukhari, V 1, B 3, Number 81, V 4, B 52, Number 177, Vol.4, Book 52, Number 180, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 788:

You must be knowing Yibel that Quran says Muhammad was not father of any male. Hadis says he got two sons, Quran says he was not given any miracle, hadis gives innumerable miracles. Quran says he was not knowledge of Ghaib, hadis gives so many prophecies like you have seen for Qiamah above. Etc etc.

I will come to answers of other questions in following posts.




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To Yibel.
written by Reed Wilson , July 19, 2012
I have answered your first question in earlier post which is under review. I come to the second ie What is "Qirat. Nazra, Tajweed" ?

To my knowledge they are various styles of reading Quran. I has nothing to do with comprehension. There are various styles of writing Quran like Kufi, Naskh, Nastaleeq etc.

Your third question is How you say that more than 95% of Muhammadans are hadis followers and Quran rejectors? Where did you get this information from?

This is my observation. They could be much more than 95%. I said 95% to be on safe side. You can interview Muhamadans and see for yourself.

Your fourth is "Since Muhammadans were followers of Muhammad, a perfect man, Allah has asked to emulate Muhammad in all things through ahadith, why they are not Muslims?

Allah has did not say 'perfect man' and 'emulate' him. Allah has rather said ُ قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ "Say I am a man like you" 18/110. Alllah has said that he was only worthy of following at several places. I quote 10:35 below:

قُلْ هَلْ مِن شُرَكَائِكُم مَّن يَهْدِي إِلَى الْحَقِّ ۚ قُلِ اللَّـهُ يَهْدِي لِلْحَقِّ ۗ أَفَمَن يَهْدِي إِلَى الْحَقِّ أَحَقُّ أَن يُتَّبَعَ أَمَّن لَّا يَهِدِّي إِلَّا أَن يُهْدَىٰ ۖ فَمَا لَكُمْ كَيْفَ تَحْكُمُونَ

Your fifth is "What is the sura and verse number of Quran where “And the messenger will say, .O my Lord, my people had taken this Qur‘an as deserted"?

It is 25:30.

Yibel my two posts wrt your questions were detained. I hope this is through.

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Statistics on Muslim domestic violence
written by Yibel , July 20, 2012
Nearly 90 percent of Afghan women suffer from domestic abuse, according to the United Nations Development Fund for Women.

Statistics in Iran show that 66% of Iranian women, at the beginning of the marriage have been at least physically abused once. Some forms of physical abuse that occur include: biting, bondage, imprisonment in their own home, scratching, hair pulling, and even starving.

The UN Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI) registered 139 cases of violence against women in the northern region of Kurdistan in the second half of 2008 alone. It said 163 women were killed as a result of domestic violence in Kurdistan in 2009. Experts suggest the number is less than 5 percent of the real estimates.

91% of university students polled by the Jordanian Human Right Center approve of wife beating. An earlier study by another organization found out that a majority of WOMEN also supports the right of a husband to beat the wife.

A study published in June 2006 in the Journal of the Pakistan Medical Association, based on interviews with 300 women admitted to hospital for childbirth, said 80 percent reported being subjected to some kind of abuse within marriage. The number of incidents of violence against women increased by 13 per cent in 2009, according to a report by the Aurat Foundation. The report states that 8,548 incidents of violence against women were reported in 2009 compared to 7,571 incidents reported in 2008.

According to London-based Refugee Workers Association Woman’s Group (GIK-DER) up to 80% Turkish and Kurdish women are victims of domestic violence and sexual harassment. Altogether, 33.7 percent of women said they considered suicide as a solution to their problems.
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , July 20, 2012
Yibel. If we sum up up Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey and Kurds, they are a fraction of US population. Then female population would be less than half of the whole. A g;e of them is harassed.

Please give the exact number of aggrieved women to compare with statistics of other countries.

0
Fineliving
written by Malem , July 20, 2012
Your post was probably grabbed because it was full of falsehoods
0
[ Idrobuhunnad ] in 4/34 And other supposed posible meaning that is comleat lie coming from a Muslim practising Taqqiya
written by fineliving56 , July 20, 2012
I have posted one of the compounded meanings of the word beat in 4/34, that *Muslim fabricators *wrongly* try to put out, to confuse, due to their shame of An Allah who allows physically beat wives .

I will try another meaning from the list, which was listed in the post titled '[ lot of meanings ]'' above, which is " to relate a story ''

Let us see if '' to relate a story '' make any sense in context of 4/34 .

"" .... As of those women on whose part you fear antipathy [ rejection],[ first] caution them [ next ] abandon their beds , [ next] // here come my experiment/// RELATE A STORY , but if they return to obedience, seek not against means [ of punishment] ...... "

Now ... the meaning of '' Idrobuhunna'' as '' to relate a story '' make any sense in the context of that Aya ???

No... NO IT DOES NOT ? ,... a punishment does not increase from '' to caution, to abandonment , to relate a story '' ... As we could see the sleazy Muslim liars who are trying to instal a different meaning to the word '' Idrobuhunna'' in 4/34 other then physically beating a wive, are NOT ABLE TO as I proven and exposed [ which we did many times before but still they trying hoping it will stick ] their disgusting unashamedly attempted .

Weak and clear lousy attempt, I might add .

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additional questions for Reed Wilson
written by Yibel , July 20, 2012
First of all, what do you mean by "various styles of reading" the Qur'an? Reading is reading, isn't it? And what are these "various styles of writing Quran like Kufi, Naskh, Nastaleeq etc." Different types of scripts? Variations in content? What?

Secondly, who are these "Muhammadans," these "hadis followers and Quran rejectors" you speak of? How many of them are there? (3??, 5??, 7??) Where are they located? Do they go to mosques? How many have you actually spoken with? Do they call themselves "Muhammadans" ? How can I personally interview them when I don't know any of them, or where they reside?

Third, you state: "Allah has did not say 'perfect man' and 'emulate' him."
"Alllah has said that he was only worthy of following at several places. I quote 10:35 below: (quote was in Arabic script)"

Quran 10:35 says: "How is it that you are so misled?"

So, are you saying that the Qur'an contains errors and that Muhammad is really the author of those passages?

Fourth, you state: "In contradiction to all above we find hundreds of ahadis telling signs of Qiamat and that it is not commencing all of a sudden."

However, the Qur'an states: “Are they waiting for the Hour of Doom to suddenly approach them? ITS SIGNS HAVE ALREADY APPEARED. How will they then come to their senses when the Hour itself will approach them? 47/18

(Note: Surah 47 was revealed by Muhammad while he was in Madinah, so it overrides all previous revelations concerning the Hour of Doom, whatever that is.)

From Quran 7:187: "But MOST people do not know." In other words, SOME people DO know! SO, why not Muhammad, Allah's first and last messenger, the ONE and ONLY ONE?
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Malam
written by fineliving56 , July 20, 2012
You Malam , lost all credibility in here because you were proven you post falsehoods and fabrications for the reasons like to hide the nasty things Quran contain,

You have the nerve ? !

You are exposed to be a fabricator ... so kindly carry on .. no one is addressing you ... Muslim!!

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