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Why Muhammad Established Islam?

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In India, I observe that Christian and Muslims are competing with each other to convert the Hindus into their respective folds. They mock the Hindu religion, particularly its Idolism. They want to become dominant over the Hindus. You can see this is happening all over India.

When I read the Quran and Islamic historical books, I was surprised to notice that a similar situation was present in Arabia before or during the time Islam was established. And that situation was -- the Jews and Christians were competing with each other to convert the Arab into their religious folds. They, likewise, used to mock the Arab religion, namely its Idolism. They wanted to become dominant over the Arab.

There were sufficient populations of Christians and Jews residing in Mecca and Medina in those days. The Arabs were attracted toward these religions and already were following certain tradition of these religions, such as circumcision. They used to believe the myths of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Issac, Ismael etc. Muhammad’s first wife Khadija’s relatives, even probably Khadija herself, were Christians.

At the time, all the Arab Tribes were following Idolism, such as in Hinduism. They used to pray to their Idol deities. Muhammad watched this and even practised the same in his early life. He was afraid that the Jews and Christians will destroy the Arab culture and identity. He had phobia of the Jews and Christians as all nationalist Hindus in India today feel the same towards Islam and Christianity in the face of aggressive proselytism of Hindus into those religions, because at stake for them is the Indian culture and identity. Muhammad felt the same towards the Jews and Christians at that time. Muhammad did not want his people convert to Judaism and Christianity, because that would have erased Arab culture. In India today, Muslims have replaced the Jews.

As has been  mentioned before founding Islam, Muhammad was a follower of Idolism. His grandfather, a high priest of the Kaaba Temple, was disciple of Lord Shiva, and an emblem of it (Shivlinga/The Blackstone) was placed in Kabaa.

Religion-wise, a similar society was present in Arabia in those days as is in India today. The Jews and Christians were trying to convert the Arabs. This can be proven by these verses of the Quran:

  1. The Jews and the Christians will not approve of you, unless you follow their creed. Say, “God’s guidance is the guidance.” Should you follow their desires, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will have in God neither guardian nor helper. (2:120)
  2. And they say, “Be Jews or Christians, and you will be guided.” Say, “Rather, the religion of Abraham, the Monotheist; he was not an idolater.” (2:135)

This clearly establishes that there were some clashes between the Jews/Christians and the Arabs. There used to be many claimants of Godmanship (prophets/messengers) in Arabia in those days. These prophets were observing the situation of Arab people. They observed that society become de-organised due to idolism, monotheism makes its organized and aggressive. The Jews and Christians are organized because they are monotheists. Societies that follow idolism cannot become organized. So they started professing monotheism in Arab society hoping to replace idolism.

Muhammad wanted to organize the Arabs against the Jews and Christians. Hence he professed monotheism to turn the Arabs into an organized force. Since the Arab had no monotheistic literature, he stole story of Abraham from the Torah. He established Islam on basis of Judaism. He changed/re-wrote the story of Abraham’s sacrifice.

What is this story? Abraham had two sons - Issac and Ishmael. Issac was born from his legitimate wife Sara; Ishmael was born of Hagar, the bondswoman of Sara. Abraham attempted to sacrifice Issac, who was miraculously saved by God, and the Jew are the descendants of Issac. So, the Jews are legitimate follower of Abraham.

But Muhammad claimed that Abraham had sacrificed Ishmael (the son of bondswomen) and the Arab are the descendants of Ishmael. Since the Allah has chosen Ishmael, the Arabs are true followers of Abraham. This is the main fighting issue between the Jews and Muslims. The Jews said they are legitimate, Muhammad claimed Allah graced the Arabs.

Since Idolism de-organizes society, Muhammad banned idolism, in order to organize the power of the Arabs and established Islam. To give the Arab power a military structure, he started organizing a system of prayer, namely Namaj or Salah (kindly read the article ‘Islam is Militant Arab organization’ on Islam-watch.org by Ajay N). He stole ritual rites of the Namaj from the idol-worshipers. All idol-worshiper bend before their idol deities, and touch their head on the earth, i.e. on the foot of the Idol/God. Muslims stand in row and bend, touch their foreheads on the earth, stand and repeat this. This physical drill organized them into a military force.

The main aspect of Islam, thus, is to organize the Arab people. Islam is not a religion, it is organization of the Arabs. It follows the doctrines of Judaism. Based on the literature of Jews, namely the Torah, Muhammad wrote the Quran. And he change Qibla (direction of prayer) from Jerusalem to Mecca. This change was made to make Islam Arab culture and nationalism centric. He preferred the Arabic language and promoted Arab Nationalism through Islam.

A Hindu response to Islamic proselytism in India

I can re-word the above mentioned verses of the Quran is as under:

  1. The Muslims and the Christians will not approve of you, unless you follow their creed. Say, “God’s guidance is the guidance.” Should you follow their desires, after the knowledge had already come to you through Veda. Only the God profess by Veda is true.
  2. And they say, “Be Muslims or Christians, and you will be guided.” Say, “Rather, the religion of Veda, the Monotheist; he was not an idolater.”

This monotheism will be beneficial for India and the Indians. Let Muslims and Christians continue mocking idolism as much as they wish, but I will not feel mocked, because idolism is better than the narrow mentality of monotheist. We Hindus can be proud of the fact that idolism professes pluralism and multiculturalism, which is necessary for peace in society.

Hindus must not profess killing of innocent people/disbelievers, as this type of religion-based terrorism gives bad name to faith and society. Killing in the name of God does not give good name to God/Religion. There should not be any place for terrorism (Jihad) in religion. God never profess terrorism. But Islam’s God profess it, because main aspect of Islam is to fight the Jews, Christians and other faith-believers and spread Arab Nationalism (imperialism) all over the world. This is why the Islam was established.

Comments (161)Add Comment
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written by esperanto , November 06, 2012
There is this interesting information:

"Maimonides(1138-1204),the Greatest Jewish Philospher of the Middle Ages said Muhammad was “Ha-Meshuga/The Crazy Man”"

http://www.antisharia.com/2012/11/05/maimonides1138-1204the-greatest-jewish-philospher-of-the-middle-ages-said-muhammad-was-ha-meshugathe-crazy-man/

"The Greatest Book in Arabic,the “Thousand and One Nights”,is a Copy of a pagan,pre-Islamic book from Iran"

http://www.antisharia.com/2012/03/22/the-greatest-book-in-arabicthe-thousand-and-one-nightsis-a-copy-of-a-paganpre-islamic-book-from-iran/
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Good article
written by Worldpeace , November 06, 2012
Good article. I am reminded of that controversy of who did god ask Abraham to sacrifice, Isaac or Ishemeal. Since the issue is to test the faith of Abraham, one can safely say it must have been Issac. One, he was the legitimate son and, according to that ancient culture, the hier of Abraham estate. And two, it would be harder to sacrifice Isaac but still a better test of faith. So, logically the Muslim's story is false. But then the whole story is mythical.
Hindus, stick to your culture and heritage, you are strong because of them.
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...
written by vbv , November 06, 2012
Biblical bullshit is the worst thing that has happened to humanity. It has spawned intolerant cults that spews hatred and calls for the destruction of all other cultures ,religions and civilisations. It is an exclusivist cult : you are either with us or against us, that is if you are with us you get a passport to the most profane brothel called "Heaven/Paradise/Jannat" or whatever , or else you are consigned to eternal flames "Hell/Jahanum" or whatever bullshit. Nothing more stupid ,idiotic can ever be imagined . That is the hallmark of the west Asian barbaric desrt cult that has caused wars and mayhem for the last fifteen centuries in the name of thmonotheistic freak of a spook and their socalled prophets /sons of "God" and whatnot. It is indeed a great disaster for humanity.
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At the same time
written by xyz , November 06, 2012

I want to request comments from abc and kope about Malems findings from Quran for Muslim prayers.

Are these 5 prayers or 3 prayers a day??

abc/ kope please comment.
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Xyz
written by abc , November 06, 2012
Everyman carries the weight of his own actions.
But I see what you are trying to do and it ain't going to work.
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Early Islamic History
written by Gnostic , November 06, 2012
First of all, I do not think that all took place according to islamic sources. The political background was different and Muhammad perhaps not as important as most people think.

Arabia belonged to the Sassanid Empire aka Iran aka Persia which was in war with the East Romans (Byzanthine Empire) for decades if not centuries.

Both empires fought so-called holy wars against each other, destroying holy places and many citizens had to pay poll tax. They both became weaker and weaker over time and this was the beginning of the Arab uprising.

If we read the quran there is not much information about Muhammad at all, the name appears only 3-4 times and some scholars even think that this does not even refer to the name of a person but to an attribute.

Many muslims agree that the short surah, which appeared probably much earlier, differ from the later ones. They look more original to me too, while the later and longer ones contain long passages from other sources probably drawn from bible, talmud, gnostic writings and others.

In my view the quran as a unit was not composed or compiled by Muhammad (and of course not by Allah), but by others, maybe Uthman at a later date in order to construct an ideology that claims for Arab supremacy and that ignites the hate necessary in order to fight against the enemies.

We know that many arabs were christians before Muhammad and many had to pay poll tax to the Iranians, while some Copts also paid to the Romans.

All in all the situation probably appeared much more political and less religious while todays muslims only recognize the religious dimension.

And the early islam is probably very much different from what islamists and salafists are dreamin of.
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...
written by kope , November 06, 2012
I want to request comments from abc and kope about Malems findings from Quran for Muslim prayers.

Are these 5 prayers or 3 prayers a day??

abc/ kope please comment. .............

to me all sects of islam are wrong that include my sect, some sect wrong in a big way and some sect wrong in a small way

we muslims have to correct ourself, even if we are wrong about something god will forgive

no big deal



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...
written by kope , November 06, 2012
I want to request comments from abc and kope about Malems findings from Quran for Muslim prayers.

Are these 5 prayers or 3 prayers a day??

abc/ kope please comment. .............

to me all sects of islam are wrong that include my sect, some sect wrong in a big way and some sect wrong in a small way

we muslims have to correct ourself, even if we are wrong about something god will forgive

no big deal



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My views
written by RK , November 06, 2012
The entire semitic religion (cult) esp christianity and islam has brought great misery to earth and are trying to rip India and Hinduism a part, 1000+yrs of atrocities by muslims and christians will and have to come to an end.

They killed innocent Hindus, Buddhist and Sikhs just because we rejected their faith and they went further to distort our scriptures on purpose to show how demeaning our religion is, the truth of all these is out.

Not once have the follwers of these cults come forth to apologise and admit their crimes against Humanity, they believe that their so called messaih and god would protect them. But the Lord of the Vedas will ensure that these fanatical cults are destroyed and would pay heavily for their crimes, Sanatana Dharma and the Laws of Karma are eternal.

At the presesnt moment many Hindus and new adherents to Hinduism worldwide are beginning to see the light of truth and what these so called religions are all about, evetually they would destroy each other and pay heavily for their actions.

Whatever happens we must keep our calm and continue our sadhana, do not fear for the Lord of the Vedas is the true GOD and Sanatana Dharma will not only triumph in this coming golden age but would pave the way for the world to eternal bliss and salvation.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win" - Mahatma Gandhi



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Peace?
written by non believer , November 06, 2012
GOD if he is there does not want peace on earth. If he wanted he should have given the same truth to all. Even if he gave different versions of the truth he should have taken care to see that people don't fight claiming their God to be God and the other man's God a devil. We have seen that he has motivated followers to fight, rape and kill followers of the other God? If he is all powerful why should he seek the help of Crusaders and Jihadists in killing non believers and believers of other religions? Why is he keeping quiet when priests, moulvis and gurus are fooling people? All this proves that if he there he must be the worst sadist.
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XYZ
written by Malem , November 06, 2012
Please see the comment from Kope on this, I agree with what he has stated.

Unfortunately for Anand his entire premise that his article is based on is flawed. Mohamed did not establish Islam, ALLAH established it, Mohamed was the messenger.
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@xyz and sematic followers
written by RK , November 06, 2012
Fools are those who believe that christianity and islam was sent down by GOD, it is no more than these 2 so called prophets were hallucinating and had an inflated ego. What good has this 2 faith brought to the world?? The answer is: death, decay and destruction.
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islam
written by singh , November 06, 2012
Islam Christianity and Jews say that convert other religious believers to their religion...and even pay for that like Christians...but Hindus is the only religion which says follow any path to reach the almighty and god loves you anyway..it proves that Hindu is the religion of earth....because god doesn't say you are wrong or he is wrong..
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Singh
written by Malem , November 06, 2012
The same reasoning exist in Islam where it states there is no compulsion in religion.
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TRUTH
written by RK , November 06, 2012
For over a millenium islam and christianity have ravaged, plundered and killed Hindus, Buddhist, Sikhs and desecrated our holy sites base on their cults diabolical teachings, they even when on to distort the scriptures of these faiths to suite their conversion agenda. The crusades of these cults have left nothing but horror, but the LORD OF THE VEDAS would inevitably destroy them and make them pay for their karma.

The followrs of these cults may think that they are winning but in reality they are just boiling like water and would soon evaporate into oblivion. The hour is near, the Golden Age would usher in an era of Vedic Dharma spirituality and would pave the way for the world to eternal bliss and salvation.

Adherents to the Vedic faith globally regardless of race are aware of the truth about these cults from the desert and what evil they did and are still doing.

March of Dharma is imminent!!!


"" First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. "" - Mahatma Gandhi
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Muslimah kills her own son for failing to memorize Quran
written by Rationalist , November 06, 2012
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...heart.html

Here we go... Muslimah killed her own son for his failure to memorize Quran. This didn't happen in Mecca or Medina, but in Cardiff, England. Hail Islam!!

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abc / kope
written by xyz , November 06, 2012

Is it 3 prayers or is it 5 prayers as per Quran?

abc and kope do not want to answer. I understand they belong to different sects. Malem belong to a sect of Muslim who understand there are 3 prayers as per Quran. Abc and kope belong to sects who understand from same Quran that there are 5 prayers per day.

Therefore, my friends it is confirmed that Quran is the root of mis understanding and contradiction. Two sects, both Muslim understood Quran differently. OR in other words Quran lead Muslims to divide into two sects due to non clarity on the prayers subject.

These two muslim sects do not even want to talk about this ambiguity or contradiction.

This is a clear proof why Quran is NOT from real GOD.

abc kope Do you confirm ?

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Kope
written by xyz , November 06, 2012

"to me all sects of islam are wrong that include my sect, some sect wrong in a big way and some sect wrong in a small way

we muslims have to correct ourself, even if we are wrong about something god will forgive "

Kope my friend do you believe that sects in Islam were made by kids or by non muslims?? No my dear, sects are made by learned Islamic scholars. Over the centuries Quran has been studied, researched and understood by monumental Islamic scholars.

Why don't you accept a simple thing. There cannot be two views for something that is clear and in case of Quran is Very clear.

You must accept that the origin of sects is due to contradictions and ambiguities within Quran / hadith and not the vice versa.

After 14 centuries of research on Quran one sect ( Malem ) is dead confirm that there are 3 prayers. While your sect after thorough research on Quran is dead certain that there are 5 prayers.

If you still want to tell me that NO Quran is clear but we ( different sects) could not understand it then please allow me to say that Allah did a big mistake. He send his clear book to wrong people who would not and cannot understand it.

What a joke!
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xyz
written by abc , November 06, 2012
Islam is not a monolith!
Your problem is that you want things to be like you believe them to be.
If malem and I was to agree, you would then say that we pray differently hence confusion blah blah blah.
Your issue is plurality!
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@ Malem - No compulsion in Islam
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 06, 2012
> The same reasoning exist in Islam where it states there is no compulsion in religion.

So I won't go to hell if I don't believe in Allah?
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xyz
written by Malem , November 06, 2012
You are missing the point lad. The pure question was how many prayers does the Quran mention, the answer was 3. The other question is how many times can one pray per day, that is up to each person. Maybe it is 2,3,5 etc.. The other question is what prayers are like, are they the 30 minutes plus that you indicate, no, they can be a few minutes of just reflecting to Allah. As for Sects, again they are not mentioned in the Quran, if you are Muslim, you are part of the family, period.
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Kope
written by xyz , November 06, 2012
"we muslims have to correct ourself, even if we are wrong about something god will forgive"

Kope your sentence has three parts.

1. To correct them, Muslims will have to search Quran. So the question, is it 3 prayers or 5 prayers?? Would Quran clarify?

2. Even if Muslims are wrong, so you are accepting Quran is not clear?

3. God will forgive muslims even if they are wrong? How can you say that? Ist it Typical Islamic supremacist belief.

Also I am noticing you are using god instead of Allah! I am happy you have started thinking.

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abc
written by xyz , November 06, 2012
"Islam is not a monolith!
Your problem is that you want things to be like you believe them to be.
If malem and I was to agree, you would then say that we pray differently hence confusion blah blah blah.
Your issue is plurality!"

Alright, so now can you inform me abc is it 3 prayers or is it 5 prayers as per Quran??

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Malam
written by fineliving56 , November 06, 2012
Do not tell ME, Quran says to pray 3 times, take it up with All other Muslims who do, pray 5 times and think that if you only pray 3 times , you are not a good enough Muslim for Allah as you should be .

I tell you what …… Why don't you E mail the Muslims of '' explore Quran '' and correct them about Quran … apparently they are misunderstanding Arabic language of Quran … just set them straight Muslims Malam .


Just remember I do NOT care one way or anther, if you do or don't ...or how ever times you pray !! .

There is no Allah … no hell … no Jannat with virgins …… you all, waisting your short time on this earth … Allah of Quran is no true God who could be considered good enough to pray to … It is is Pathetic …that ia why IT is a Hoax .

Time will tell … too bad you will be dead and you would never know that you have waisted all that time praying to nothing .

BTW …. I brought the subject of prayer to show how divided Muslims are, and not in that only , there a lot more division between Muslims as the whole world, know by now.
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Malem
written by Worldpeace , November 06, 2012
Malem, you said, the reasoning exist in Islam, where it said there is no compulsion in religion.
At best, you are economical with the truth. There are verses that controvert that verse and at the same time Islam says the abode of non Muslim is eternal condemnation in hell fire. This is not the same with Hindu doctrine of following any path to lead to the almighty. So Malem try to be a gentleman. Islam is beyond compare with any ideology. It stands out as supreme evil.
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Malem
written by xyz , November 07, 2012

"You are missing the point lad. The pure question was how many prayers does the Quran mention, the answer was 3. "

This is your answer Malem ( your sect). Would kope and abc confirm the same?? Not as yet. How many times Mohammed was praying salat per day??


"The other question is how many times can one pray per day, that is up to each person. Maybe it is 2,3,5 etc.. "

Wow...Maybe it is 2,3,5. Another confusion another contradiction. Proof Quran is not clear. Also can you tell me how many times Mohammed was praying salat per day.?

"The other question is what prayers are like, are they the 30 minutes plus that you indicate, no, they can be a few minutes of just reflecting to Allah."

What do you mean by reflecting to Allah? Another contradiction? How was Mohammed reflecting to Allah on daily basis after salat was sanctioned.??

" As for Sects, again they are not mentioned in the Quran,"

Correct. But sects are formed due to contradictions in Quran / Hadith

if you are Muslim, you are part of the family, period.

I do not believe in religions.

P.S And why you call everyone "lad"? This is due to your age or this is superiority complex. ( being an Arab)




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Non believer
written by Truthseeker , November 07, 2012
You said

***GOD if he is there does not want peace on earth. If he wanted he should have given the same truth to all***

He DID give the same truth to all......To Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all prophets of Jehovah before christ, the worlship of the one true God....and through His Son Jesus christ, salvation through His shed blood.

The problem is, since the beginning of time, 75% of the population of the earth has completey rejected this.

God WANTS peace upon the earth. But until people repent of their sins and accept Jesus as Lord come in the flesh for sinful men, that is not going to happen. And God doesnt believe in forcing Himself upon people.
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Worldpeace
written by Malem , November 07, 2012
You are also being "economical" with Hinduism, one could go into its demeaning treatment of women for example. However the posted article was about Mohamed establishing Islam, he did not rather Allah established it.

Fineliving, if you dont care then why are you insisting on writing post after post on it. The reason is you are incorrect and you are trying to use that small item as a wedge to divide others.
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Number of Islamic prayer times
written by Yibel , November 07, 2012
"Recite your prayers at sunset, at nightfall, and at dawn: the dawn prayer has its witnesses. PRAY DURING THE NIGHT AS WELL: AN ADDITIONAL DUTY, for the fulfilment of which your Lord may exalt you to an honourable station." Q. 17:71

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The Prophet said, “On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven, I saw Musa who was a tall brown curly-haired man as if he was one of the men of Shan’awa tribe, and I saw Isa, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colours and of lank hair. I also saw Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire and Ad-Dajjal amongst the signs which Allah showed me.” (The Prophet then recited the Holy Verse): “So be not you in doubt of meeting him’ when you met Musa during the night of Mi’raj over the heavens” Q. 32:23

It was during this Night Journey that Muhammad established the prayer times:
According to Islamic tradition, Allah instructs Muhammad that Muslims must pray 50 times a day; however, Musa tells Muhammad that it is very difficult for the people and they could never do it, and urges Muhammad to go back several times and ask for a reduction, until finally it is reduced to 5 TIMES a day.
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yibel
written by malem , November 07, 2012
Allah established Salat, no one else. Tradition doesnt make it Islamic, the Quran does. So you can quote all the stories and fables you want they mean nothing. In the end Muslims shall pray as many times per day as they want as Allah knows who follows him.
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xyz
written by kope , November 07, 2012
written by xyz , November 06, 2012

"we muslims have to correct ourself, even if we are wrong about something god will forgive"

Kope your sentence has three parts.

1. To correct them, Muslims will have to search Quran. So the question, is it 3 prayers or 5 prayers?? Would Quran clarify?

((( look people follow the way they understand islam / quran and i have my own understanding of islam/quran and i preach my understanding of islam to other muslims without condemning them))))

2. Even if Muslims are wrong, so you are accepting Quran is not clear?

((( quran is clear but we human are corrupt so we cant understand clearly ))))

3. God will forgive muslims even if they are wrong? How can you say that? Ist it Typical Islamic supremacist belief.

(((( according god the best human are those who repent ))))

Also I am noticing you are using god instead of Allah! I am happy you have started thinking.

(((( allah mean god in arabic ))))

i am happy you are observing
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Kope
written by fineliving56 , November 07, 2012
You said :

'' Quran is clear but we human are corrupt so we cant understand clearly ''

Please do not lump us Human all together, some of us do understand it as it is without garnish and fan fare …

I do understand Quran perfectly … and it is nothing but a hoax and scamp to fool the fools and control the weak .
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...
written by kope , November 07, 2012
right pea brain
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@ Kope
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 07, 2012
> we muslims have to correct ourself, even if we are wrong about something god will forgive

What about non-Muslims? Will God forgive us? Is it a hard no? Or does it depend on each person's record of his actions -- by summing up or otherwise determining the goodness or evilness of each of his actions?

Does a Muslim who targets and kills innocent people get to go to heaven? But for non-Muslims, we'll *all* be going to hell and burning in hellfire for eternity just because we have a different idea than you do about how reality works?

This is what I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong..

You Muslims believe in Allah, and we atheists don't believe in the existence of higher beings. So lets think about who would go to hell in your system. George Carlin, Stephen Hawking, Ayn Rand, Alan Turing, Richard Feynman. These kinds of people, whose knowledge has benefited mankind, are by default (aka automatically) going to hell and burning in hellfire for eternity just for not believing *your* idea of reality.
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written by This is Rami Rustom , November 07, 2012
written by kope , November 07, 2012
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 07, 2012

> we muslims have to correct ourself, even if we are wrong about something god will forgive

What about non-Muslims? Will God forgive us? Is it a hard no? Or does it depend on each person's record of his actions -- by summing up or otherwise determining the goodness or evilness of each of his actions?


((((( all good human being weather christian,muslims,jews, hindus, budhists, ect all go to heaven and all bad human regardless of their religion they go to hell ))))

Does a Muslim who targets and kills innocent people get to go to heaven?

((( all bad muslims go to hell )))


But for non-Muslims, we'll *all* be going to hell and burning in hellfire for eternity just because we have a different idea than you do about how reality works?


((((( all good non muslims go to heaven that MY understanding of islam ))))



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@ Kope
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 07, 2012
>> But for non-Muslims, we'll *all* be going to hell and burning in hellfire for eternity just because we have a different idea than you do about how reality works?
>
> all good non muslims go to heaven that MY understanding of islam

I notice that your reply covers two types of situations but you're missing a few. Your explanation says where people "go" after death, but its ambiguous about whether or not people first go to hell, and then go to heaven.

Here's what your explanation covers:

(1) all bad Muslims go to hell.
(2) all good non-Muslims go to heaven.

Here's some of what it doesn't cover:

(3) all bad non-Muslims go to hell.
(4) all good Muslims go to heaven.

So, based on what you read from me, and assuming that I'm not a liar that preaches one thing and does another, do you think that I'm good enough to be in category (2)? Or if you don't know me well enough, then pick another atheist who you think would be good enough to be judged so that he is labeled category (2).

Does the not believing in Allah idea mean that people labeled as category (2) will go to hell for a while before going to heaven?
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To all
written by Kaser , November 07, 2012
Malem, your "there is no compulsion in religion" sharply contrasts the "slay the unbelievers wherever ye may find them".
Would you please, Malem. Stop insulting our intelligence with this Quran "cherry-picking"?

Malem, you said "Allah established Islam" Really? Allah established Islam? You crack me up Malem. If you are intelligent enough to use a computer, you are intelligent enough to know this whole religion thing is pure scam. This comment also applied to abc. You defend Allah/Islam simply because it suits your lifestyle old man.

Kope - so religion does not matter. If you are a good human, then you go to heaven. But Kope, heaven was invented by men for religious purposes. How do you reconcile this Malem? Accoding to Islam, I will go to hell for not. Being a Muslim. Even Malem will not argue this. Does this mean you are not understanding the Quran Kope? But Kope, Malem said that Allah,yhe creator of Islam, is the greatest communicator? Why all this confusion??? Abc, help us !!!

3 prayers, 5 prayers - who give a sh** really. Malem, you say three. saudis say 5. Malem, help me!! Allah is the greatest communicator,but ere is so much confusion???

Malem, you should not piss on Hinduism about its treatment of women. LastI read,Islam is among the worst in terms of mysoginisitc ideology.

xyz,Ybel, I like your style. Yibel, I read that it was 15 prayers a day that Allah requested, but Mo dealed it down to 5 when he "visited them" what a great guy!!!

Fineliving. Keep it up, your common sense and logic is no match for our fanatic friends that can simply repeat, over and over, Quran is right, god is great, Islam is light and all that re-hashed nonsense.
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Islam according to Kope
written by Worldpeace , November 07, 2012
How I wish you are correct about Islam, Kope. But what you say ran counter to all of Islam's cannon. The Koran is the highest authority and there is no verse in it that says something close to what I will refer KOPE'S DOCTRINE (KD). For if Islam is KD, there wouldn't have been any contention and the world Would have, relatively, been more peaceful.

Now, Kope, on a more serious note, you be careful you don't purvey KD among your Muslim brethren, for that would put you on the line of apostasy. I agree, if at all there is heaven all good beings will be there, but that is completely opposite to what Islam stands for. The grievous offence (sin) for which Allah promised never to forgive is idolatry. So Kope KD makes you, and to some extent Malem, apostate like me, fineliving , Rami et al. Welcome brother Kope to the world of freedom and peace. (At least peace of mind).
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Must read... Muslimah kills her own son
written by Rationalist , November 07, 2012
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...Koran.html

Moderator, I posted it yesterday but was gulped by IW! Reposting again
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kaser
written by malem , November 07, 2012
http://www.scribd.com/doc/1244...ta-Agarwal
Kaser maybe one day you can explain the above... or for that matter whye the following is aloud in Hinduism.
The wife is seen as a gift from the gods to her husband, Sex outside marriage is forbidden and, in some strict households, girls and boys are kept apart. Traditionally, girls may not be allowed out alone; There is no Hindu equivalent of dating, and a bride and groom may meet for the first time only on their wedding day.
A menstruating woman is regarded as potentially polluting
Hindu women are married very young and their protection passes from father to husband and, later, to their sons, they may be disciplined rather than protected, and sometimes abused.
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To the above idiot who writes about Hinduism
written by RK , November 07, 2012
Most of the practises like honour killings, dowry, etc were by-products of 500yrs of islamic rule in India. Your religious theology creeped into our society even after yr fall even though muslims still practise this stupid ideas.
Stop quoting from islamic and christian sources.

So basically islamic practises are barbaric not Hinduism.
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RK
written by malem , November 07, 2012
Lad me thinkith you are the idiot here. You are trying to blame islam for what is in the Veda writings that existed before the Quran? hahaha you are a bigger idiot than I thought, here is just few.
"Almighty God, you have created this womb. Women may be born somewhere else but sons should be born from this womb" - Atharva Ved 6/11/3

"O Husband protect the son to be born. Do not make him a women" - Atharva Ved 2/3/23

In 'Shatpath Puran (shatpath Brahman)' a sonless women has been termed as unfortunate.

'Rig Veda' censures women by saying:
"Lord Indra himself has said that women has very little intelligence. She cannot be taught" - Rig Ved 8/33/17

At another placein Rig Veda it is written:
"There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna" - Rig Ved 10/95/15.

'Yajur Ved (Taitriya Sanhita)'m- "Women code says that the women are without energy. They should not get a share in property. Even to the wicked they speak in feeble manner" - Yajur Ved 6/5/8/2

Shatpath Puran, preachings of the 'Yajur Veda' clubs women, 'shudras'(untouchables), doga, crows together and says falsehood, sin and gloom remain integrated in them. (14/1/1/31)
In 'Aiterey Puran', preaching of the 'Rig Veda' in harsih chandra -Narad dialogue, Narad says: "The daughter causes pain"
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Allah/Muhammad is imitating infidel Pharao!
written by Gnostic , November 07, 2012
There are three quotes from Pharaoh in the Quran that he punished his enemies with cruxification and cutting of hands and feet from opposite sides.

In Surah 5:33 Allah/Muhammad order to punish people by cruxification and cutting off hands and feet from opposite sides.

This allows the following conclusions:

a) Allah/Muhammad learnt from Pharaoh how to punish. However, the quran forbids the imitating of infidels. Moreover, modern scholars teach that cruxifiation was not in use in ancient Egypt.

b) This is much more likely: The author of the quran simply had no knowledge about history and only repeated without thniking about this contradiction like about many others, such as the fact that coins (dirham!= greek drachmas!), which were mentioned in Surah Joseph, did not exist
in ancient Egypt!


Only beginners would commit such errors!
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HINDU DHARMA Is noble and diametrically opposite of ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY.
written by kafir-infidel , November 07, 2012
One has to learn and understand all the religious ,social,geographical, spiritual history thoroughly to know the truth based on facts and historical developments.
Why HINDU DHARMA is such noble and tremendously life giving,life affirming force ? Hindu dharma is natural, positive , noncontradictory, most secular, most rationale and logical . Hindu dharma is undogmatic, not imposed, nonproselytizing, based on peace,love, nonviolence, freedom,self realization, compassionate, and open , all inclusive.
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Gnostic
written by Malem , November 08, 2012
Which Pharaoh? What three verses? Wheres your proof? I know lad, you cant answer the questions becuase you have no proof just your opinion again you are trying to present as fact.
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re: Malem
written by Gnostic , November 08, 2012
Good questions. The quran does not mention the name but uses the title Pharao as name instead, which is also a mistake. And there are three quotes with the punsihments:

007.124
YUSUFALI: "Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross."

020.071
YUSUFALI: (Pharaoh) said: "Believe [...] I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees: so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!"

026.049
YUSUFALI: Said (Pharaoh): "Believe [...] Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross!"


These are the quotes from Pharaoh.

And here comes Allah aka Muhammad:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


So islam uses the same punishments against its enemies like Pharaoh according to the quran!

However, this is nonsense because Cruxifications were not in use in ancient Egypt and it becomes obvious, that the author of the quran only repeated this because they had no better idea!
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GNostic
written by Malem , November 08, 2012
And I am going to assume that you realize that word used for Crucifixion in the Quran is not the Wooden Cross type you are thinking it is correct? If you do think that, you will need to refer back to either Ed Lanes Arabic-English Lexicon book where it shows why it is not the same. Or go to the Modern Dictionary of Arabic by Wehr (? not sure if that is the right spelling). You will see why what you are presenting is incorrect.

Back to the article, Mohamed did not Create Islam, it was created by Allah
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 08, 2012
The story you mention above referring to Hinduism's treatment of women does not surprise me.
Pretty much all over the world both in the past and currently, men have treated women badly. So there is no surprise Hinduism is also part of it.
Religions are the greatest culprit for the treatment women have endured for the last millenias.

That's why ALL religions must be erased, and placed in museums along side dead dinosaur skeletons.

I am curious Malem, as to how you can explain the confusion we see here, and in many other places where the "interpretation" of the Quran leads to many different understandings.
Did you not say Allah was the greatest communicator?

And you again repeat Allah created Islam - why do you believe this Malem? Because humans told you so? So pretty much, this means you blindly follow humans, and their description of Allah/Islam stemming from 1400 years ago. You do not question this.

How do you explain the Quran Malem, and the verses that are completely contextual to Mo's actions, needs and events in his life.
Would not Allah - the greatest communicator - bring forth Islam and the Quran clearly and without continually contextualizing it with Mo's life?
For all people, for all times?

I mean, according to your beliefs, Allah created the whole earth - and yet, it makes sense to you that the best he can do to guide us is the Quran - telling us to drink Camel piss?
Really Malem, you're OK with this?
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Strategy
written by Truth , November 08, 2012
The strategy of Mohammad is working. Convert one generation on the threat of sword. Then the next generation becomes a muslim and fights to convert the rest to their bogus religion. They also breed excessively to increase their population. The first strategy is working in India. The second in the west. The danger of islamization is real and the world has no answer.What a brilliant strategy. Nobody,like Alexander,Hitler,Mussolini, none of them thought of this except Mohammad. He insured it further by saying that he was the last prophet.Brilliant and that too in the 7th century.
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@Malem
written by RK , November 08, 2012
Oh so u chose to cite Vedic scriptures from islamic and christian websites, dont u now how the muslims and christians twist our Holy Scriptures to suite their conversion agenda while ruling India. Well what can we expect from christians and muslims who are incline to lies and deceit since the foundations of these faith is obscure and man-made.

Google up Indologist, Orientalist, etc and see what their motivations were. Btw brothels aka harem is of islamic origin and muslim rulers and sheikhs past and present are the biggest patrons. The world knows the truth abt christian and islamic conquest thats why nations that fell to these religions are not able to trace their original religions and cultures because all their mauscripts and doctrines were destroyed.

If you are looking for authentic Vedic underastanding, pls visit agniveer.com and other Vedic institutions and not adulterated sources interpreted by marxist, muzzies and christians.

The Vedic light of truth will manifest itself whether you like it or not and there's nothing you can do to stop it!
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re: Malem
written by Gnostic , November 08, 2012
Thank you for your answer but it does not change the fact that Pharaoh and Muhammad/Allah used the same punishments and even the same wording for it according to the quran.

This is absolutely not likely given that Pharaoh is supposed to have lived around 2000 years earlier, perhaps 2000 km away, belonging to a different culture with different language, different laws and different habits.

I understand why you want to change the subject! The reason is that we can find another logical inconsistency here with no proper explanation.

But we can go back to the subject you proposed: Was the quran really written by Allah and not by Muhammad or anybody else?

The answer is no, because Allah would not commit errors like that above and many more. (The quran also asserts wrongly that the ancient egyptians were using greek dirhams as currency, however, minting was not invented yet and dirhams (greek drachmas) simply did not exist (Surah Joseph).
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Truth seeker
written by non believer , November 08, 2012
OK for the time being let us assume your god, invented by abraham moses et al, is the true god. Then he is the one who is controlling the brains of all beings. Then why did he tell Mohammed that his name is allah? Why did he tell Hindus that he is Brahman,Shiva,Vishnu etc.,? Why people in Africa India, and Americas who were there even before Adam was born (we have anthropological proofs of that) were given different ideas of him and different rules to worship. If you say only your god is true, why was he partial to the desert tribe? Why is he creating 75% who don't believe in your god? Answer is simple. There is no god. It is a name given by men to control the other men. A political tool.
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Anand
written by Duke Indian , November 08, 2012
All your assumptions in your article are wrong, Mr. Anand! You are comparing sixth century Arabia with India. You imagine that christians and jews are invaders of Arabia and they established their separate ideology and religions in Arabia. Nothing can be farther from truth than this unestablished concocted theory. Arabia was inhabited by different tribes numbering more than 20 and a few of these tribes accepted christianity and jewish religion and they were as arab as the other tribes who were following, of course idolatry and multitheism. But religious beliefs were not a bone of contention between the different tribes and they almost co- existed peacefully. Of course there were some skirmishes between the tribes occasionally but that was based on love marriage and/or some other minor social issues but never based on religious beliefs. All the tribes used their own dialect of Arabic and each tribe had its own customs and traditions. There were different jewish and christian tribes too and they had different customs and traditions. No multithiest tribe in Arabia considered the different jewish, christian and sabian tribes invaders or outlandish. There were no large scale battles between the different tribes and no tribe was militarily armed to conduct any battle or aggression. Precisely this was the reason Muhammed could defeat the many tribes one by one when he organised a small group of mercenaries to conduct robbery at first and developed it into a small army later on. Your theory that jews and christians had their own culture which was totally different from the other tribes is a figment of your imagination and you have malafide intentions in raising such concocted stories. You may please try to learn the pre- Islamic history of Arabia and surrounding areas before you set out fabricating your malafide stories. Muhammed is hailed as the originator of Arab nationalism only because he destroyed the tribal culture of Arabia and started his own brand of religion which later on spread to a large part of the world through bloodshed and treachery. Some people may think it is a great thing, but in my opinion what he did was a great crime. Even without him the Arab multi thiest and muti religious culture would have progressed and blossomed into a beautiful one like what we see in India today. Muhammed killed it and started his own nefarious, anti- human, intolerant and brutal ideology which is hailed by some people as Arab nationalism!
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Innocence of Muslims
written by xyz , November 08, 2012

Muslims said the movie is "controversial".

I say why muslims are not going to US court to prove the movie "controversial".

Because they cannot prove it "controversial" . Right

Any thoughts from Kope, abc and our old friend Malem?
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RK
written by Malem , November 08, 2012
So other are twisting the meaning of the vedic? Wow now you know how others feel when people do it to the quran.....

Gnostic - Allah did not WRITE the Quran, he provided the message to Muhammed via the Angel Gibriel....
Where are the errors? I see none, or maybe it is because you lack the ability to udnerstand it, im not sure.

XYZ - Controversial is an OPINION you cannot prove it as it relies on that persons view.
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re: Malem
written by Gnostic , November 08, 2012
So you would probably see no contradiction if Pharaoh would punish with electric chairs or gas chambers according to the quran because you will accept the world the way it is.

You should not be proud of that because this is very miserable. But I know that there are so many muslims being proud of stupidly believing everything written in the quran.
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Gnostic
written by Malem , November 09, 2012
The Quran does not say either of those, so your point is mute. The Article in which this post is based on is actually mute as well, as Muhammad did not Establish Islam, that was done by Allah long before. He was only the messenger who brought Allahs words to the people. Once you get that, you can understand the rest.
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re: Malem
written by Gnostic , November 09, 2012
Oh no! It seems you really believe in what you are saying! You are much like the guys who believe that Wrestling is not fake!

The islamic world needs people like you!

But I give you chance to realize it now:

The quran asserts that the Egyptians were using exactly the same punishments like the arabs some 2000 years later and even using the same words for it.

Are you truly believing this? What else are you believing? That sperm derives from the backbone? That we are made from clot? That the sun and the moon are running around the earth? You must believe this if you are a muslim!!
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Gnostic
written by Malem , November 09, 2012
What I believe is you, like the others, refuse to address the article at the top of the page. So you dance around other topics like usual hoping something sticks. The articles title is false, Muhammed did not Establish Islam, it was Allah.

Good work re-electing our friend to the white house!!
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Where are the errors?
written by Yibel , November 09, 2012
WOW! Where to begin?

As Gnostic has pointed out -
First, there are errors regarding items out of time and place - and the scientific stuff is ALL WRONG!

Then there's the Bible stories which are ALL mixed-up and just plain WRONG!

And, WORST OF ALL, Muhammad's stone-gawd is a mean-spirited, evil, sadistic, dog-hating, pig-hating, monkey-hating, music-hating, fun-hating, warmongering, human-hating, blood-thirsty, death-loving ogre!!
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 09, 2012
Again the "Allah established Islam" You are truly delusional if you believe this Malem.
Allah established nothing. To this day, he says nothing. He his a concept. An idea.
Allah is an explanation humans gave themselves because they were not able to make sense of what they were seeing thousands of years ago.

Now, centuries after these dark ages, about 200 years well into the current "scientific age" we know better.

Well, most of us know better anyway...
And the interesting this is - We have overwhelming proof on our side.
Undeniable proof - day in, day out, proof builds.

Where you Malem, like other religious fanatics, only have old, irrelevant scriptures that you hold onto for dear life.
You are stuck in time warp Malem. You are among a dying breed.

BTW, I'm glad Obama was re-elected. It shows that religious fanaticism is also dying in the good 'ol US of A. The republicans are going to have a harder and harder time getting elected. They will, but watch their positions shift...
With his intellect, Obama is obviously an Atheist - there is no other option. And he plays the religious card very well the crafty buggar. Including playing into the Saudi supremacist feeling. Whatever you want Saudi friends... But keep the oil flowing... Or we'll have to "free" the Saudi people like we did in Iraq...

Funny thing is, Obama cannot show his atheism, nor event hint to it. The USA is not yet ready to elect an atheist president.
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re: above
written by Gnostic , November 09, 2012
Yes, I am too happy that Obama was reelected for the same reason. No more fundamentalism any more, no more fight against science and progress!

Malem, you claimed that Allah created Islam and this is what I am talking about.

That you are wrong because all evidence reveals that the author of the quran was a beginner who committed beginners errors and contradictions, not really understanding what he did and what he wrote.

No publisher would accept such a book today from a writer producing so many errors and inconsistencies. Or can you explain to me why the quran says that ancient egyptians were using greek drachmas as currency while minting was not invented yet?

If Allah created islam, who wrote the quran? The quran itself makes the claim that it was written by Allah -but can it stand the truth?

Islam is beginning to fall like the Berlin Wall some 20 years ago. Like communism and any lie that cannot resist the truth!
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Non believer
written by Truthseeker , November 09, 2012
You said

OK for the time being let us assume your god, invented by abraham moses et al, is the true god. Then he is the one who is controlling the brains of all beings. Then why did he tell Mohammed that his name is allah? Why did he tell Hindus that he is Brahman,Shiva,Vishnu etc.,? Why people in Africa India, and Americas who were there even before Adam was born (we have anthropological proofs of that) were given different ideas of him and different rules to worship. If you say only your god is true, why was he partial to the desert tribe? Why is he creating 75% who don't believe in your god? Answer is simple. There is no god. It is a name given by men to control the other men. A political tool.

First of all JEHOVAH is not Allah. Allah is a pagan moon god. Where do you think Islamists get the crescent moon from? they all like to say that Allah comes from the Aramaic/Hebrew el/elleh but that means nothing. Allah/El/Elleh just means god which is a generic title, not a specific one.

No one was on earth before Adam was born. The earth was created in 6 days, though as a day is as a 1000 years on earth (a bible quote I dont have time to look up at the moment, it could have actually been over 6000 years. There is actually loads of archaological and geological evidence to prove this but as my library time is almost up I dont have the time to look it up.

He is not partial to the desert tribes, He is no respector of men (in other words he doesnt place any particular tribe above anyone else. Tehre is no Jew or Greek, man or woman, rich or poor to Him.

And He IS Brahma, amongst various other names (Vishnu however is actually a hindu name for NOAH- Ish-Nu being a Chaldee name for the Man Noah). If you go back far enough and get underneatth all the corruption, many religions actually worshipped Jehovah in their ancient past. Even the roman Jupiter is just a corruption of the Latin Jovis Pater, Father Jove (a short name for Jehovah)

And if people do not accept him, that is their fault, not God's.
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Allah likes polytheism (from Quran)
written by Infidel and More Proud , November 09, 2012
Tafsir Ibn Kathir Surah Al-Feel
“(1. Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with the Owners of the Elephant) (2. Did He not make their plot go astray) (3. And He sent against them birds, in flocks (Ababil).) (4. Striking them with stones of Sijjil.) (5. And He made them like `Asf, Ma’kul.) This is one of the favors Allah did for the Quraysh. He saved them from the People of the Elephant who had tried to tear down the Ka`bah and wipe out all traces of its existence”

Note: This event predates Mohammeds birth if the timelines compared. Kaaba was at that time a multifaith site and Koran says Allah intervened to save Kaaba from destroyers.
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Kaser
written by fineliving56 , November 09, 2012
If you have read my post in another thread to Malam, when he said '' you guys Have elected a Muslim ''

I said the same thing ,you and Gnostic, said .. I always thought Obama is an atheist who played the religion card when he needs to it help him self .

I was glad he was elected because I did not want dinosaur Mitt … his stands about women, I do not agree with … he thinking, he can dictate about our lives according to the dictates of his God …. about abortions and stem cells .

Mitt thinks … he has a Binder full of women … he want us to put us in a BINDER and put us away '' … :)

What I do not like about Obama is, his non existing knowledge of REAL Islam ..

He thinks Islam is good, there is only bad fanatic MUSLIMS give, Islam a bad name . Of course he is so wrong , it is not even funny .

He does not ask him self .. why all Muslims misunderstand Quran and ISLAM all IN the same way ?!

There is any way, we can inform him of REAL ISLAM … to tell him that the source of all evil that we see from Muslims all over the world, is Quran it self and other Islamic books .
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Malem
written by Onlooker , November 09, 2012
Islam was established by Allah! hahahahaha! Malem, the old fogey, is a joker too..

On second thoughts it seems true. Only Allah, the moon- god can establish such a backward, down graded, misogynist religion! No wonder in the 14 centuries of its existence it reached one fifth of the total world population and its followers are the most backward, uneducated, war- mongering, strife ridden and poverty stricken lot among all peoples!
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Hindus are not saints.
written by Ameer , November 09, 2012
Anand has painted Hindus as saints in the above article. Hindus killed 3000 Muslims in Gujarath,and 2000 Christians in Bihar. Hindus ( Hare Krishnas) too started converting in western countries by distributing lime rice,and they most small white boys! In Russia,they have become such a menace and the Russian government has to ban the Hindu book Bhagavath Geetha in Russian.
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Ameer
written by vbv , November 09, 2012
Comparatively , hindus are saints : that is , if you compare with islam and christianity. Islam forces itself by threats ,violence and forcible conversion by fraud and criminal means( like in Pakistan , hindu girls are kidnapped, raped and "married" off to some muslim rake with the threat that they cannot go back to their family , who are also threatened with dire consequences and death threats). Mullahs encourage such criminal activities and blatant abetment. You cannot compare the rot in muslim society with anything. They go to western nations as refugees , live on doles , yet they spout hatred for the society that feeds them and gives them security , they want that barbaric sharia law to be imposed on the west , they want to convert them by threats, duplicities, frauds and any other means that they call "Taqiyya". Hindus who live in western countries live peacefullyu there, contribute their mite to their economy, they do not call for forcible conversion or want to impose any of their religious laws and doctrines ,like the muslims. Above all , they do not go seeking asylum and live on doles like the muslims. They practice their religions amongst themselves and not impose anything on others. They do not indulge in religious bigotry and terrorism like the muslims.

So, Ameer , you sound like a pakistani , a frustrated muslim who is a nonachiever , jealous of others' prosperity and wellbeing ,which is why you are spewing your bile and rancour on hindus. You paksitanis hate hindus,which is your ancestry , and you want to be called 'arabs', while no arab owns you, they despise you and treat you like shit. No wonder you are trapped in your insular mindset that you cannot get out of it.
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And if I'm not mistaken
written by Betty , November 09, 2012
Hinduism is the ONLY religion that tells people to go and search every religion until they find the one that suits them? They aren't like the Christians and Muslims that preach hellfire if you don't succumb to their religion.
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Betty
written by vbv , November 09, 2012
I agree with you entirely. Hinduism is also not averse to atheism, agnosticism or any other ism . All it says is that one can be a seeker in any path that appeals to them except that it should uphold spiritual and moral values ,not become a tool of oppression and exploitation. That is the essence that is propounded in Upanishads and Brahmasutra. Brahmasutra talks of absolute monism , that has no personal "God" but the entire Universe is perceived as a unity of singular existence that shows up in its diverse manifewstation. This singular existence in its ultimate self is beyond birth and death , it is infinite and timeless , that is called "Brahman" or the universal reality of which this cosmos is a part and we are all very minutely infinitesimal part of the same and we do not have to go searching for a superspook living in cloud 9 with an extremely bad temper , self-centered , narcissistic, demanding abject submission and adulation and megalomaniacal.
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Who establisehd Islam?
written by Gnostic , November 09, 2012
First of all, there can be no doubt that islam was and is being established by humans and nobody else. There is no Allah visible and anybody who says something different has to show were he is!

Humans are establishing islam wherever islam has a place by building mosques, printing qurans and reciting from it. Anything else is nonsense!

The danger is that islam is ruled by clerics and these scribes can tell the stupid masses whatever they want, much like malem, trying to get the monopoly of the truth which is happening in Iran and many other places.

Keeping the poor people stupid, telling them that they are only slaves of Allah, without any creative potentials, only able to pray and to hope.

This si the worst thing that could ever happen to mankind - why should Allah do such things? Keeping his own followers in ignorance? Theaching them wrong things about science and everything?
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@ Kope
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 09, 2012
> written by Gnostic , November 09, 2012 - First of all, there can be no doubt that islam was and is being established by humans and nobody else.

But that is false. People *do* doubt that.

Every idea can be doubted.
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@ Kaser
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 09, 2012
> written by Kaser , November 09, 2012 - Again the "Allah established Islam" You are truly delusional if you believe this Malem.

What do you gain by saying he is delusional? What problem does it solve?

I thought your problem is that *you want to persuade Malem*. Do you think that calling him delusional will help you solve your problem?
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Fineliving
written by Kaser , November 09, 2012
I think Obama knows very well that Islam is the source of much evil, violence, contempt and intolerance.
BUT - he cannot ever blame "Islam" - because blaming Islam will be seen as Islamophobia (I am an Islamophobe - I do not like Islam).
The vast majority of Westerners are closet Islamophobes. Obama CANNOT be an Islamophobe. Even Romney - 100% an Islamophobe, will never admit to it.

Blaming ISlam would open up the door to blame Judaism, Christianity and so on...
And Obama, and his army of advisors, know full well this is an area they do not want to go to.

There can never be any winner in a religious debate. This is like arguing which color is the better color - green or yellow. We can argue about this 'till we turn blue in the face. Nobody will win and nobody will ever back down. Arguing about religion is the same.

Imagine if Obama blamed "Islam" for terrorist acts - CAIR and other cry-baby groups would immediately jump on this and claim he is against Muslims. CAIR would make it a personal attack on Muslims. This is their ploy - their trick. They would rally up all the Islamic nations against Obama and the US even more!!! It would result in even more violence against non-Muslims where Islam reigns supreme. It would empower the "Muslim Brotherhood" even more...

Obama must continuously defuse Islam's aggressions.
He must walk on eggs. He must make sure to downplay bringing religion in the mix.

I know, he knows, most of us know that Islam is irrelevant on the world stage.
It is a relic from the dark ages. All Western Countries have to deal with it - but make sure it never, ever takes on power.
We keep it tamed and irrelevant, like a noisy kid that throws tantrums from time to time.
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re: doubts
written by Gnostic , November 09, 2012
No, I still believe that only humans establish islam and not Allah!

Who would register islam as a registered religion at the authorities? Allah? No, humans do that! Who builds mosques, who prays and who beats his wife(s)? Humans! Who kills infidels and rapes their women? Allah? No, humans! Who prints and distributes the quran? Humans! Is there evidence for any islam establishing act were Allah is involved? No!

Is there any evidence for the existence of Allah? No!



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Rami Rustom
written by Kaser , November 09, 2012
Rami, I am confronting an individual that refuses to acknowledge logical arguments, that refuses to recognize proven scientific facts. An individual that takes the stance that his Islamic ideology is completely and absolutely TRUE simply because it EXISTS. That whatever the Quran says, it's perfect. This is delusion. This is what fanaticism thrives on.

Saying Malem is delusional, if he is sound of mind, may help him open his mind to accept facts and logic he currently purposefully ignores. If Malem had acknowledged the blatant errors and inconsistencies in the ideology he so vehemently defends, I would not label him delusional. If he had said "I agree such and such passages of the Quran are errors or are no longer applicable to modern realities" I would not call him delusional.

Secondly, my trying to persuade Malem is not a "problem" at all. I am trying to open his mind, with great difficulty because he does not want to open it. Therefore, I must continue to counter his posts to make sure other visitors to this site are not misled by Malem's personal interpretation of the Quran - that goes quite against logic.
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@ Gnostic
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 09, 2012
> No, I still believe that only humans establish islam and not Allah!

I agree with you. I don't believe in a higher being either.

But I'm addressing your idea that an idea can be "undoubtable". I disagree with your idea. Anybody can doubt any idea.

Just because *you* don't doubt idea X doesn't mean that other people can't doubt idea X.

And no matter what explanations or evidence you provide that idea X is true, there will always be the possibility that someone still disagrees with X.

And so, claiming that an idea is undoubtable is false logic. People *can* doubt that idea.
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Rami / Gnostic
written by Kaser , November 09, 2012
Yes, every idea can be doubted.
But intelligent humans, with adequate cognitive functions, should question an idea when faced with facts proving or countering said idea.

When individuals refuse to acknowledge facts countering an idea, they simply become preachers.
Also called clerics, Imams, Mullahs, Priests, bishops, ect... They are all delusional.

As a man of science, I need to open people's eyes to the blatant facts about Religion's errors.
So that as a race, we stop propagating this global insanity.
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Re: doubt
written by Gnostic , November 09, 2012
Yes, you are right, of course. In fact I have doubts, that there is any Allah involved in the establishment or constitution of islam. Everything is man-made in islam and Allah did never introduce himself.

Even Allah is man-made, if you want. This does not rule out that there might be other god(s) but the islamic god is definetely man-made since there is nothing that could not have been created by humans.
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Gnostic/ Kaser/ Rami Rustom
written by Kafirwala , November 09, 2012

You people must understand at least one thing- that it is a futile exercise to make abc/ kope/ Malem/ Reed Wilson listen to reason or logic. These dimwits are brain dead zombies who swallow all the b/s in the Quran without adding a drop of water. The more you try, the more you become a laughing stock. So you try to concentrate on some productive activity. Leave these sh*tbags to their inevitable destiny. I also take this opportunity to remind you the popular adage- you can wake up a sleeping man, not a moron who feigns sleep.
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Kafirwala
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
You might be right about your perception of our die-hard religious friends.

But one thing we cannot accept, it to blatantly let them spread their ideology when we know FACTUALLY that is is false.
I know and they know how humans are easily influenced, especially in their young age. Look how many blow themselves up, wasting their lives and their vistims' lives.
Religious fanaticism, especially when it breeds an "I'm better than you because I believe" attitude must be stomped out of existence altogether.

If abc, Malem and all the others CANNOT come to reason because of faulty logic, or insufficient intellect, then they are lost, and they will die ignorant.
BUT, if they CHOOSE not to come to reason, then it is our duty to prevent them from spreading their fact-less and baseless cult to impressionable humans.
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Betty
written by Truthseekeer , November 10, 2012
Yuo said

They aren't like the Christians and Muslims that preach hellfire if you don't succumb to their religion.

Betty WE didnt say it, Christ did. And all those who reject Him put themselves on the path to hell willingly. Christ doesnt want anyone to perish and neither do we
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Truthseeker
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
Important detail here Truthseeker - you BELIEVE that hell exists. You base your belief simply on scriptures, nothing else.
You have never seen proof of hell - ever. Nobody has.

There is nothing to indicate hell is anything other than a fabrication of humans to scare other humans into believing what they believe in.
Like heaven, a simple promise of reward for behaving according to the religion's guidelines.

Problem is, with heaven and hell, we cannot prove they DON'T exist as much as you can prove that they DO exist.
What we can prove, is that we we did down, down, down, we do not find hell.
When we climb high, high, high, we get into space, we do not find heaven.

Christ is like Mohammed EXCEPT for one major difference. Christ was peaceful, Mohammed was a warrior.
Both were leaders with excellent oratory skills.
Like a certain German in the 1930's.
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@Truthseekeer
written by Betty , November 10, 2012
I said "They aren't like the Christians and Muslims that preach hellfire if you don't succumb to their religion", which being brought up in a Christian family I know well that the ministers DID preach hellfire..."In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you." John 14:2 I know this is written too. I don't believe that you would be judged for eternity for 70-80 years here on Earth, if so, I would never follow any ideology that "preaches" this as truth.
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kafirwala
written by malem , November 10, 2012
You speak so eloquently lad, maybe your issue is that you are not willing to look at consequences for livign a life of shame. Allah provided the rules and if you dont wnat ot live by them so be it. Remember Allah gave you free wil!.

Betty is in the same group they want to talk about eh hellfire but refuse to talk about how they live their lives. if you play with fire, you get burned, it is not that hard to understand. Betty speaks with the vulgarity of a bedouin drunakrd, but yet wants not responsibility for it.
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kafirwala
written by malem , November 10, 2012
You speak so eloquently lad, maybe your issue is that you are not willing to look at consequences for livign a life of shame. Allah provided the rules and if you dont wnat ot live by them so be it. Remember Allah gave you free wil!.

Betty is in the same group they want to talk about eh hellfire but refuse to talk about how they live their lives. if you play with fire, you get burned, it is not that hard to understand. Betty speaks with the vulgarity of a bedouin drunakrd, but yet wants not responsibility for it.
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What do you
written by Betty , November 10, 2012
want to know about the way I lead my life? So you are Allah's and Christ's judge now? I haven't spoken vulgarly to you, I just asked about what your wives would be doing while your screwing your black eyed virgins. If the swinging cock thing *upsets* you, so be it. You are pissed off because being free, I can speak my mind and am not some subservient wall fixture like your Religion says I'm supposed to be. So go and preach to your wives about what they're supposed to do, but as said before, beware, they have their own thoughts and like Fineliving, someday may rise against you. And FYI there isn't a heaven or hell, just enlightenment, get over yourself.
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...
written by Betty , November 10, 2012
Also poor Malem, if you don't know what your wives will be doing, it is perfectly allright to say that you don't know, but being such an Islamic scholar, I thought you might know? Until then adios muchacho hahahaha
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betty short memory
written by malem , November 10, 2012
Just look at the words you used in your previous posts about my wives and private parts. As i said before, wash your mouth out with soap lass.
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Still no answer
written by Betty , November 10, 2012
if I didn't know better, I'd think you're avoiding my question, which BTW I've asked like 8 times. Do you not know what your wives will be doing? Will they be watching you? Will they be in some other place, maybe a heaven for women? Will they be in hell? I know in Hadith it says that women will make up the majority of the occupants there, but since you're in the 1 half of 1 percent of Muslims that don't believe in Hadith, that doesn't matter to you. Read where Saudi's made 16 Billion off the Haj this year, congratulations for supporting them hahahaha
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
You said: Allah provided the rules and if you dont want to live by them so be it. Remember Allah gave you free wil!"

How do you know Allah provided the rules Malem?
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re: above
written by Gnostic , November 10, 2012
Saudi Arabia earns billions a year with the haj. Moreover, the ruling Saud clan earns even much more by exploiting the largest oil reserves on earth with the legitimation to represent islam and to keep the holy mosques safe.

They spend a small fraction of their income for spreading salafi islam and disturbing the order in many countries. Most of the money is spend for around 5000 family members such as princes and princesses who receive millions every year for doing nothing.

Only here and there they spend some money for building mosques and many muslims kiss their asses for that.

And for maintaining an islamic disneyland with wife beating, stoning and cutting off hands and feet just the same way Pharaoh did according to the quran!
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
Malem, If a man is allowed four wives, then why did Allah create humans with a 50/50% boy/girl birth ratio? Why not 20/80% boy/girl - that way, all men could have fours wives.
Why, again, are your Allah's laws (Quran) not corresponding to the way your Allah supposedly created human reproduction dynamics?

Why Malem - it makes no sense... Don't you agree?
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Betty/bonnie
written by abc , November 10, 2012
A Muslim in the white house for another four years.
That's gotta hurt?
0
...
written by Betty , November 10, 2012
Who is bonnie that you keep bringing up? Obama will be stifled by a House of Representatives that will not cooperate with him anyway. And why are you speaking to me anyway?
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@ Kaser
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 10, 2012
> Saying Malem is delusional, if he is sound of mind,

That is a contradiction. IF one is delusion, THEN he is not of sound mind. Right?

> may help him open his mind to accept facts and logic he currently purposefully ignores.

No. Calling him delusional is antagonistic. Its an attack on him. Most people respond to that by getting offended. When people get offended, they (subconsciously) react by rationalizing.

> Secondly, my trying to persuade Malem is not a "problem" at all. I am trying to open his mind,

That *is* the problem. His mind is not open like you want it to be. That is your problem. And you're trying to solve it. I have the same problem.

> with great difficulty because he does not want to open it.

Right. And antagonizing him sabotages your ability to solve your problem.

> Therefore, I must continue to counter his posts to make sure other visitors to this site are not misled by Malem's personal interpretation of the Quran - that goes quite against logic.

I don't think we need to be concerned that others will be persuaded by Malem.
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@ Kaser
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 10, 2012
> Yes, every idea can be doubted. But intelligent humans, with adequate cognitive functions, should question an idea when faced with facts proving or countering said idea.

No. There is another problem. Anti-rational memes. These memes shield themselves from criticism. How? Like the if-you-question-Allah-you'll-go-to-heaven meme. This makes people not question Allah because they are scared they'll go to hell if they do.

> As a man of science, I need to open people's eyes to the blatant facts about Religion's errors. So that as a race, we stop propagating this global insanity.

So then its in your best interest to learn how meme theory. It'll help you understand how anti-rational memes shield themselves from criticism.

To learn about that, join me here:
http://groups.google.com/group/popperian-theology/subscribe
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@ Kafirwala
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 10, 2012
> You people must understand at least one thing- that it is a futile exercise to make abc/ kope/ Malem/ Reed Wilson listen to reason or logic.

No. I've seen all 4 of them respond to good logic with good logic. I don't mean in *every* situation. But, nobody is perfect so *all* of us mess up logic sometimes.

> These dimwits are brain dead zombies who swallow all the b/s in the Quran without adding a drop of water.

No. I've seen all 4 of them reject some stuff that the Quran says. I don't know what you're talking about.

> The more you try, the more you become a laughing stock.

So you're saying that *you* are laughing at us.

> So you try to concentrate on some productive activity. Leave these sh*tbags to their inevitable destiny.

I don't care much whether or not I persuade abc/Kope/Malem/Reed. What I care about is that I learn new ways to persuade Muslims. And I've learned a lot by talking to them. Part of that means learning their rationalizations. All this learning I'm doing helps me write articles about this stuff. And then others will learn from my articles.
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@ Kaser
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 10, 2012
> How do you know Allah provided the rules Malem?

[I'll try to answer for Malem. Malem correct me if I'm wrong.]

Because the Quran says so.

[Kaser, I'll guess your next question: Why does you believe the Quran?]

Because the Quran is perfect and so only Allah could have created it, since humans are fallible and Allah is infallible.

[Is that right?]
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No … No Muslim in the white house
written by fineliving56 , November 10, 2012
There is a closeted atheist in the white house … who was raised as a Christianity but he is not anymore … he use religion as cover to wheel and deal … he knows atheists are only 25% and he will never be elected if he came out .

Ex Muslims Americans should educate Obama about the REAL ISLAM and not the one he being fed by the muslim he talk to .

What hurts is his ignorance of Islam and the mistaken notion that there is only BAD MUSLIMS but NOT BAD Islam .

He does not know the roots of all problem with terrorism is Quran it self and Muhammad's Sunna .

Go ahead and deny that all you like … but that is a fact .
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Rami
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
I want to hear Malem's explanation of why he believes Allah made the rules - invented Islam.
He cannot state that it is because the Quran says so, this is circular logic and he is intelligent enough to know this.
If Allah dictated the Quran, and the Quran describes Allah, then none can be used to explain the other.

Indeed he believes that Allah/Islam/Quran are perfect and infallible. This is the stance he takes.
I want to know why... What revelations has he received that make him take this position.
If he has received none, and is honest about it, then ALL his faith - his COMPLETE belief system is solely based on what other humans have told him.
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Oh dear
written by abc , November 10, 2012
"Go ahead and deny that all you like … but that is a fact "
Yeah just because a deluded woman says so.
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Typical
written by fineliving56 , November 10, 2012
Post from the Muslim ABC ….

Please read, Surit Malam, I posted in Arabic … It was a surprise to me that I found that Allah mentioned you three Muslims zombies in his Quran .

Wash before you read Quran… after all … the Quran viruses I posted are pure .
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abc
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
"Deluded woman" ??? Deluded of what?
I think, on the contrary, she now is clear of mind.
But she now feels frustration at attempting to pierce through your this "Islamic" armor.
How about you abc, why do you believe Islam is right?
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abc 2
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
Did you read my comment on Obama?
What do you think of my explanation abc?
I repost it here:
------------
I think Obama knows very well that Islam is the source of much evil, violence, contempt and intolerance.
BUT - he cannot ever blame "Islam" - because blaming Islam will be seen as Islamophobia (I am an Islamophobe - I do not like Islam).
The vast majority of Westerners are closet Islamophobes. Obama CANNOT be an Islamophobe. Even Romney - 100% an Islamophobe, will never admit to it.
Blaming Islam would open up the door to blame Judaism, Christianity and so on...
And Obama, and his army of advisors, know full well this is an area they do not want to go to.

There can never be any winner in a religious debate. This is like arguing which color is the better color - green or yellow. We can argue about this 'till we turn blue in the face. Nobody will win and nobody will ever back down. Arguing about religion is the same.

Imagine if Obama blamed "Islam" for terrorist acts - CAIR and other cry-baby groups would immediately jump on this and claim he is against Muslims. CAIR would make it a personal attack on Muslims. This is their ploy - their trick. They would rally up all the Islamic nations against Obama and the US even more!!! It would result in even more violence against non-Muslims where Islam reigns supreme. It would empower the "Muslim Brotherhood" even more...

Obama must continuously defuse Islam's aggressions.
He must walk on eggs. He must make sure to downplay bringing religion in the mix.
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Kaser
written by Kafirwala , November 10, 2012
'BUT, if they CHOOSE not to come to reason, then it is our duty to prevent them from spreading their fact-less and baseless cult to impressionable humans.'

In that case, what you must do is exposing their lies as Dr. Ali Sina is doing. Not trying to reform them wasting your valuable time. They all are incorrigible as far as their warped faith is concerned. There is a sanskrit saying: don't scatter the pearls in front of a donkey. Because donkeys will never know the value of pearls.
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response to fineliving56
written by Yibel , November 10, 2012
Obama was raised as a Muslim, not a Christian. He attended a Muslim school in Indonesia as a child while living with his mother - a communist - and his stepfather - a Muslim. His birth father was also a Muslim - from Kenya. He attended a private high school in Hawaii which was run by a known communist and pedophile (while living with his grandparents - who were also communists). The so-called Christian church that Obama attended for 20 years was run by a racist, white-hating, America-hating pastor.

I agree that he is certainly not a Christian, but it is hard to believe that he is unknowledgeable about Islam - considering his upbringing, his time spent in Pakistan following graduation from high school, his bowing to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, his support for Hamas, his attack on Libya to install a fundamentalist Islamic regime, his support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, his supplying of Libyan arms to the anti-Assad forces in Syria, his lack of support for the uprising in Iran, his attempts to disarm America and cripple the US military, and his attempts to curtail freedom of speech in order to protect Islam.

To this day, Obama wears a gold ring with the saying "There is no god but Allah"
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Rami Rustom
written by Kafirwala , November 10, 2012
'I've seen all 4 of them reject some stuff that the Quran says. I don't know what you're talking about.'

Really? When was it? Could you please show me a single stuff in the Quran rejected by any of these die-hard adherents? I know this guy malem from day one he appeared in this site with a post saying that according to eminent islamic scholars who have done decades and decades of research on Quran, the allegedly objectionable and violent suras in the Quran are not applicable in today's context, but applicable only to the period in which it was written. I then posed a question to him: those suras constitute more than 60% of Quran, if it was applicable to the petty squabbles and battles of the sixth and seventh centuries, how can you claim that Quran was sent down for all humanity till the end of this world? No answer.
Later, in some post he wrote that saudi is ruled by wahabis, Iran and Iraq by shiites, Syria is ruled by Alwites and there is no true islamic rule in these countries. Then again I asked him: OK, there are about 57 countries in the OIC, tell me which country is ruled according to the true tenets of Islam? Name at least one country. If none of the countries is a true Islamic country, would you agree that Islam is a failed ideology and religion? Till this day this fool has not given me an answer.

(to be continued)
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Rami Rustom
written by Kafirwala , November 10, 2012
(continuation)
So eloquently he hails the islamic scholars who do research on Islam for decades and decades. Do they agree with his known stand of rejecting all hadeeths? Recently this fool has come out saying that according to Quran, there is need for only 3 prayers daily, not 5. I would like to know how many of his eminent, erudite scholars will endorse his view. They will slice his body into pieces if they come to know about his such postures. The other fanatic abc at least has the common sense not to participate in discussion when the objectionable, violent and the funny parts of Quran are discussed. He will simply ignore it. He knows that he will lose it badly. The retard malem is not like that. He will simply barge in and mouth all lies and stupidities. For example, whenever the eternal fornication of 72 houries in paradise is mentioned, he will appear and say there is no such thing mentioned in the Quran. Actually the no. 72 is not there in the Quran. It is in hadeeth only. But, he has no qualms in rejecting everything concerned with big breasted houries or pearly boys in the Quran. So much so for his doublespeak and utter lies. kope is another retard whose brain cells are completely damaged. You tell anything, this fool knows only to chant 'christianity is dying in the west; Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.' He is living in a fools' paradise. The last one is the court jester Reed Wilson. His mastery over obfuscation and mistranslation is mind- blowing. If there was a Nobel Prize for obfuscation and misrepresentation, this fellow would have won it hands down. Anyway, this fool is thankfully absent these days. At any point of time I don't remember any of these zombies admitted any flaw/ error in their sacrosanct scripture Quran.
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Malem
written by Kafirwala , November 10, 2012
'You speak so eloquently lad, maybe your issue is that you are not willing to look at consequences for livign a life of shame. Allah provided the rules and if you dont wnat ot live by them so be it. Remember Allah gave you free wil!.'

Since when you grew so much in stature as to call everybody else 'lad' and 'lass', you dumb fool? As for your allegation that I live a life of shame, listen. I too believe in God, but not in your pervert Allah. My God is compassionate, loving and understanding. Not one like your boisterous, boastful, egoistic and hateful Allah! Quran is Allah's vile dictates only. Not real God's. I have read Quran cover to cover once and have referred it umpteen times whenever I came across a quote from it. In my opinion, it is pure crap. If somebody were to publish it now i.e. in this age, he would have thoroughly edited it and not even half of it would have appeared in print form! So much repetition and idiotic jugglery in that book. The communicating skill of your Allah is despicably poor and crude. In fact, I pity him. So please don't measure me with your yardstick derived from that vile book. You will be disappointed.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 10, 2012
To Mr. Kaffirwala. Your posts are always amusing and entertaining. Specially I enjoyed your expression "The more you try, the more you become a laughing stock. So you try to concentrate on some productive activity."

It is always good to concentrate on some reproductive activity.
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kafirwala
written by malem , November 10, 2012
Lad, having the brain of a hamar does not help you, if you believe in God, good for you. There is only one god his name is Allah. He provided everything to you, including the right and free will for you to make a fool out of yourself, which you excel at! Good job lad.

Kaser you might read and learn the Quran next time, understanding and comprehending is. Much different than just reading.
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Malem
written by Kaser , November 10, 2012
Aside from occasionally insutling us Malem, you pretty much played into Kafirwala's hand.
You never push discussions very far, and you never answer or debate difficult subjects.
You never answred any of my questions:
-Why did you "Allah" give 50/50% boy/girl birth rates if he authorizes 4 women to each man?
But the most important one Malem:
-Why do you believe Islam is true when you have received personally not a single shred of proof that ANYTHING in the Quran comes from a divine being?
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@ Reed Wilson "It is always good to concentrate on some reproductive activity."
written by Liberal Fundamentalist , November 10, 2012

written by Reed Wilson., November 10, 2012
To Mr. Kaffirwala. Your posts are always amusing and entertaining. Specially I enjoyed your expression "The more you try, the more you become a laughing stock. So you try to concentrate on some productive activity."

It is always good to concentrate on some reproductive activity.

Well Reed, I can't fault you on that logic. "Reproductive activity" is something Ol' Camel Turd excelled at though I believe nothing much came of it. But his followers seem to have taken to it in a big way.
So That is why I say why worry about global warming, nuclear holocaust and end of the world, when only guys that will remain to face it will be the koran following retards.
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Reed Wilson
written by Kafirwala , November 10, 2012
Sorry, Mr. Wilson, at your present advanced age, reproductive activity is not advisable. But, don't you worry. In your after life, you will get more than enough opportunities to indulge in the activity merrily and to your heart's content. Since you are not fighting in the way of Allah and killing infidels where ever you find them, Allah may not allot you the full contingent of 72 virgin houries. But, judging by the quality of your taqiyya, he may in all probability allot you a fair number of houries. So, be patient and wait a little more. The houries are on your way and happy eternal screwing!
0
Tutile excercise.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 10, 2012
Mr. Kaffirwala. You wrote "You people must understand at least one thing- that it is a futile exercise to make abc/ kope/ Malem/ Reed Wilson listen to reason or logic. These dimwits are brain dead zombies who swallow all the b/s in the Quran without adding a drop of water."

A court jester is a compliment for me. A CJ does not misguide nor he obfuscates. It is not my consideration to convince any or vend Islam. I am not 'required' to do that. However some understand and some do not. I quote a post of Mr. duh swami in this regard.

Reed influences
written by Duh Swami , August 13, 2011
Reed has shown some extremely good points here. I have to agree with his point of view and it could be that I have not judged him correctly. I think we would all be better served if we gave Islam a second look from a positive perspective. Thank you Reed.


If a fellow human being is saved from misunderstanding, it should always be a matter to be happy.

You didnt show up for some time which was a matter of concern for me. The standard of comments on this site is declining and your presence matters.

You consider me as 4th of the four. I am here on this site for not less than three years.
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@ Kaser
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 11, 2012
> I want to hear Malem's explanation of why he believes Allah made the rules - invented Islam.

Malem said "its clear". This is evasion.

> He cannot state that it is because the Quran says so, this is circular logic and he is intelligent enough to know this.

No he's not.

> If Allah dictated the Quran, and the Quran describes Allah, then none can be used to explain the other.

He doesn't know such things.

> Indeed he believes that Allah/Islam/Quran are perfect and infallible. This is the stance he takes. I want to know why... What revelations has he received that make him take this position.

No revelations. Just feelings. He "feels" that its true.

> If he has received none, and is honest about it, then ALL his faith - his COMPLETE belief system is solely based on what other humans have told him.

Right.
0
rami
written by malem , November 11, 2012
So you now read minds lad? That is quite funny. One only has to read the Quran and the words of Allah to see it was he who provided the words via jibril to muhammed. It is staed in his words and there is no reason to believe he is lying, he has never lied. Islam was not invented it exists with Allah, always has, that is why adam and eve were the first muslims. Take a few days and actually read the quran, you will see the beauty yourself.
0
Reed Wilson
written by Kafirwala , November 11, 2012
I can understand your disappointment at being the last of the quartet despite being senior most in terms of standing and acceptability at this site. But believe me the grouping was made on the simple basis of alphabetical order and not on prominence or nuisance value. Hope your aggrievedness has been effectively addressed. Now coming back to Duh_swamy's appreciative note, I am afraid you are less than fair. Last time when you did the samething, I remember, a reader had pointed out Duh's correction the next day retracing his words.On verification I also found it to be true. Hiding it, you quote Duh's mistaken certificate every now and then is not only unethical, but also highly misleading and deceitful. But, considering the tricks you play in translating the Quran and misinterpreting it, only this can be expected from you.
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Oh no!
written by Gnostic , November 11, 2012
Malem, the quran is wrong from the very beginning. Surah the Clot is supposed to be the first "revealed" surah and it is obviously wrongly asserting that humans were made from clot. Other surah are elaborating this nonsense telling that sperm turns into clot and then into bone, flesh and so on while there is no female ovum mentioned at all.

And sperm derives from the backbone region. Where is the beauty here? The beauty of nonsense?

Montains are supposed to be pegs to fix the ground and birds can fly by permission of Allah:

16:79. Have they not seen the birds obedient in mid-air? None holdeth them save Allah. Lo! herein, verily, are portents for a people who believe.

This is clearly wrong. It is the the buoyancy of the air that keeps the bird flying, the same happens with bats and insects, helicopters and so on.

The fact that man-made helicopters can fly is evidence that there is no Allah necessary in order to fly!

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@ Malem
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 11, 2012
> So you now read minds lad? That is quite funny. One only has to read the Quran and the words of Allah to see it was he who provided the words via jibril to muhammed.

Thats what the Quran says, sure.

> It is staed in his words and there is no reason to believe he is lying, he has never lied.

How do you know that Mohamed didn't lie? Somebody told you.

> Islam was not invented it exists with Allah, always has, that is why adam and eve were the first muslims. Take a few days and actually read the quran, you will see the beauty yourself.

Beauty? I don't care about beauty when I'm searching for the truth. Maybe this is your problem. You think that the Quran's beauty is a reason for you to believe that a higher being created it?
0
Houris Gender.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 11, 2012
Kafirwala. You write "Sorry, Mr. Wilson, at your present advanced age, reproductive activity is not advisable."

Why Sir?

"But, don't you worry. In your after life, you will get more than enough opportunities to indulge in the activity merrily and to your heart's content."

There is no sexual activity and/or reproductive activity is expressively promised by Allah. It would be a news for me if you quote from Quran.


"Since you are not fighting in the way of Allah and killing infidels where ever you find them, Allah may not allot you the full contingent of 72 virgin houries."

I am not killing anyone. What you quote is in case of battle when infidels have flocked at you. Infidel is wrong translation. It is a Christianity term which Quran translators used for convenience. Are you sure the houries are females? No Arabic dictionary tells that they are women.

You also write "But, judging by the quality of your taqiyya, he may in all probability allot you a fair number of houries. So, be patient and wait a little more. The houries are on your way and happy eternal screwing!"

How it is taqayya my friend? I appreciate your wishing me good.

0
...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 11, 2012
Kafirwala. You write "I can understand your disappointment at being the last of the quartet despite being senior most in terms of standing and acceptability at this site. But believe me the grouping was made on the simple basis of alphabetical order and not on prominence or nuisance value. Hope your aggrievedness has been effectively addressed."

I think you should have mentioned 'alphabetical order' there. It is not effectively addressed. 'Acceptability' and 'nuisance value' contradict.




"Now coming back to Duh_swamy's appreciative note, I am afraid you are less than fair. Last time when you did the samething, I remember, a reader had pointed out Duh's correction the next day retracing his words.On verification I also found it to be true."

No the reader did not point out 'duh's correction' and 'retraction of words'. You are blaming Mr. Kafirwala. I never expected lies from you.



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Unholy quotes?
written by Liberal Fundamentalist , November 11, 2012
Dear Reed Wilson

Who's to say you did not pen the "retractions" or supposed admitted "reverence" Duh Swami had for your point of view under his pseudonym? So let's not get carried away. Stick to quoting Islamic scriptures and the trash spouted by Ol' Camel Turd and you will realize how hollow you sound.
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@ Reed Wilson
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 11, 2012
> Are you sure the houries are females?

In arabic, **every** noun is inherently expressed as male or female. So its impossible to read the word houri and not know the sex.
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Rami
written by fineliving56 , November 11, 2012
not just that …

If Quran did not mean to convey, houris as women, then *****why would Quran, describe the houris, as …. big breasted …. big black eyes …that no man ever touched virgins *****

Quran has very damning verses in it, but THAT, is the most damning of all, to reach the conclusion that Quran is nothing but man made to control the weak and the deprived .

Reed as you know, will do anything and say anything to rationalize Quran …. he is not above lying right to your face .

He will say the color of snow is black if he had to .
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Reed Wilson
written by Kafirwala , November 11, 2012

So in your opinion I am telling lies.

I quote here under the alleged post of duh_swami dated 13.08.2011.

Reed influences
written by Duh Swami, August 13, 2011

Reed has shown some extremely good points here. I have to agree with his point of view and it could be that I have not judged him correctly. I think we would all be better served if we gave Islam a second look from a positive perspective. Thank you Reed.
(quoted from comments section of the article 'On the question of God and punishments in the Afterlife' by Mr. M.A.Khan dated 10.08.2011.)

Again I quote the post of duh dated 14.08.2011.

Reed, Allah is playing tricks again...
written by duh_swami, August 14, 2011

You see Reed, we live in a clone society where everyone has a clone...You have a clone, I have a clone, we all have clones together...My clone has not yet perfected his clonesmanship...but it is obvious that he has studied the subject a little...However it is difficult to clone duh swami...Many have tried but they all come up just a little short...It's even harder to clone you Reed, because so far your clone has no expertise in posting Arabic script...It's possible your clone and my clone are the same clone, making us relatives in a strange sort of way...Allah thinks of everything doesn't he...No one knew that Allah is the clone god, but we know now...
(ibid)

Now, a little background.

Just earlier to this post duh had written that somebody has written in his name and duh jocularly in his inimitable style called him his clone. In his post dated 14.08.2011, he was again referring to this clone and was subtly saying that the previous post which appeared in his name ( the one Reed Wilson is so proudly hanging around his neck) was probably written by his clone and he had no hand in it. All the readers could understand it except Reed. He still quotes it as though it was given by duh. In fact, it was factually not correct either. With great difficulty I searched Reed's previous 10 posts too and nowhere he had shown any new points or any perspective inducing a second look at Islam. In fact, he was obfuscating and misrepresenting and misinterpreting Quran as usual and was mercilessly scoffed at by duh. Last time when he made the same claim, a reader pointed out the actual position and I did verify the comments. But I forgot the actual position. I stand corrected. It was not retraction by duh, but was downright disownment of the words and alleged statement which is more serious. I do not think Reed is unaware of this thing. Then why he makes this dubious claim, particularly when he knows fully well that duh will not come anyway and refute it? I now suspect that duh's clone was either Reed himself or some stooge of his like Ms. Ayesha Akram. Anyway, don't think that you can get away with your trickery, Mr. Reed Wilson.
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ALL religions are just men-made
written by 1proudkaffur4life , November 12, 2012
It is really soooooo funny reading the statements of the various “religious” people here claiming “their” concepts of a deity is the real McCoy. Ha, as if any men-made concept can in any way be ascertained to be true! All the religions presented here are ancient! But please can ANYBODY here explain how they would “protect” a “religion” which requests “human sacrifices” to their “god(s), like in the Americas before the Christians set foot upon it? Can one assume that Muslims would act differently towards the pagans of the Americans, in regards to the “demands” of the priests that the deity wants human blood spilled on the altar? Voluntarily or not does not matter.

And any deity which punishes people for petty “sins” committed against other humans with any form of eternal punishment IMHO is not WORTH of honor, respect or admiration.

Stoned-gawd allah send Jesus/Isa allegedly with (among other “messages”) “forgive they enemy”. Hell this “gawd” can not ACT himself likewise! Since the gawd of the quran and the bible is the SAME, as claimed in the quran one has just to read the HELL-VERSES in the quran to REJECT the foolishness of this RELIGION! I reject Islam first and foremost because of the “religious” FOOLISHNESS it contains, the violence meted out by some of its adherents and the inner Islamic fighting does not help to make Islam a “religion” which could impress me one bit.
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Yibel
written by fineliving56 , November 12, 2012
The life history of Obama you wrote is well known for years now … yet he was elected again … that give us a spouse .. why did it happened ?

Believe me … it pains me everytime Obama shows his ignorance of real Islam when he praise islam … … I believe he does not know the real Islam, due to his indifference to all religions including Islam …

Please, Yibel, allow me this Question :

1) Are you saying, obama is nothing but a Muslim fanatic and Quran scholar who knows the violent side of islam, and he is purposely using his presidency to plot against America with the help of his Al Qaida friends members to help to destroy it,from inside out,so he can help Al Qaida to size control of the white house and there for, Islam will dominate the world ?

Or

2) Are you saying that Obama is a shrewd, far leftist, democrat whose idea of equality is so severe, that it BLIND him to the fact that Islam and Islamist are dangerous and they create the biggest threat to the safety of Americans,despite his smarts. Also who he happen to be born to a Muslim father and was made to recite Quran well, and holds tender feeling for Islam in the result of that ?

I say it is most likely option 2 .

What do you think ?



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Here is some beauty from the beast Allah
written by Yibel , November 12, 2012
Quran Surah 47: Muhammad
Allah makes the works of disbelievers vain. 1
Those who disbelieve follow falsehood. 3
Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 4
Allah will damn the disbelievers and make all their actions fruitless. 8-9
Disbelievers may eat and be happy now, but the Fire will be their final home. 12
Those in the Garden will drink delicious wine, while those in the Fire will drink boiling water that will tear apart their intestines. 15
Allah curses people by making them deaf and blind. 23
Angels will gather them together and smite their faces and backs. 27
Allah will make the actions those who disbelieve fruitless. 32
Those who disbelieve will never be pardoned by Allah. 34-35
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Obama and Islam
written by Gnostic , November 12, 2012
I think you guys are all exaggerating the topic Obama and Islam. Is there any leading politician in the world - except Wilders - who would critisize islam openly? George Bush, Angela Merkel, Hu Jintao - none of them is interesting in getting trouble with a violent muslim mob and thats why nobody cares to much about islam. Obama is no different here.

Imagine an election campaign with islam involved as a major subject. This is the last thing most people wish. People like to talk about lower taxes, medicare and such silly things but not about how to eradicate islam. Nobody can control such a debate and it would probably overshadow all other subjects and overlap the political territories.

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Gender of houris.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 12, 2012
This is Rami Rustom. You write "In arabic, **every** noun is inherently expressed as male or female. So its impossible to read the word houri and not know the sex."

In Quran the Arabic word hoor is used and not houris. I give you the meaning from Arabic dictionary, Lughat ul Quran.

Lughat ul Quran Page 562

Qur’an says about muttaqis (those who abstain and fear God) wazaw wajnahoom bihoorin een: 52:20, 44:54 just as hoor is used both for masculine and feminine, so is een plural for a’yan (masculine) and aina (feminine): Raghib says zawwaj nahoom bihoorin een means to make companions: see heading zha, waw, jiim: therefore this does not only mean to be husband and wife but also to be companion and friend*: husband and wife are zauj for each other: accordingly the Qur’an has also called pure women of a jannati (heavenly) society as hoor: 56:22, 55:72 besides Lane has written with reference to various sources that ahwar ( of which hoor is the plural) means pure or clean intellect: that is not cunning intellect but pure and clean intellect without cunningness: as such ma ya eesh bi ahwar means a person who is not clean in his dealings: who does not live according to purity of intellect: as such, in heavenly life, mutual friends or companions (hoorun een) whether friends or wives will not use their intellect to deceive each other but their intellect will be devoid of such impurities.



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Yibel
written by Kaser , November 12, 2012
The usual gang of Quran defenders will either:
- ignore your post;
- claim it's taken out of context.
- claim you cherry pick
- claim you just don't understand...

I like in particular that Allah, the "greatest of communicators" would include such violent verses in his Quran, the book for all humans for all times.

What an absolute joke... It' nothing else than a bunch of 7th century "scholars" writing down scriptures, with the bible as a reference, control as their objective and Mo as an example...
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 12, 2012
Mr. Kafirwala. You have quoted a beautiful post of Mr. Swami and it does not mean what you are trying to establish. And he is not 'other reader'.

There is no fun in arguing with you when you doubt my integrity.
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kaser
written by fineliving56 , November 12, 2012
I like to add to your list, if I may ..

- Claim your religion is no better then Islam …

but that excuse is left for only Christians, Jews, … etc ..

Atheists are free of such criticism … that is a plus
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Fineliving
written by Kaser , November 12, 2012
Indeed, us atheists are free from reverse criticism, because we have no religion Muslims can attack.
They can only attack us based on their belief we are "lost" and "without guidance"...
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I see...
written by Betty , November 12, 2012
where the trailer for Imran Firasat's new movie "The Innocent Prophet" is now out! Great work by a patron of this Site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f..._FWONoY2S0

The actual blog was locked so I placed it here.
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@ Kaser
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 12, 2012
> Indeed, us atheists are free from reverse criticism, because we have no religion Muslims can attack. They can only attack us based on their belief we are "lost" and "without guidance"...

No. They commonly do attack atheism on the same grounds that some atheists attack Islam.

Some atheists attack Islam with the argument that Islam causes people to have bad morals.

And some Muslims attack atheism with the same logic, that "atheism" causes people to have bad morals.

The argument is false though because atheists don't have a unified moral code.
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Rami
written by Kaser , November 12, 2012
You said:
"No. They commonly do attack atheism on the same grounds that some atheists attack Islam"

I strongly disagree.
The grounds for Atheists to criticize Islam are based on Islam being a belief system rooted in nothing else than folklore - hence potentially in the wrong. Our scientific method ALLOWS us to judge Muslims are in the wrong, with proof to back it up.
On the other hand, the grounds for Muslims to criticize Atheists are based on the simple fact we are not believers, therefore in the wrong. Their belief system ASKS them to judge we are in the wrong, but does not explain why.

There is no "wishful thinking" in Atheism - there is the scientific method.
There is "wishful thinking" in ALL religions - there is no method other than "having faith".
Atheism, more importantly, tells us that there is much that remains to be understood.
Islam, like all other religions, are stuck with scriptures that, as science grows, and humanity grows, become more and more irrelevant, and obviously wrong.

Rami, you then continue:
"Some atheists attack Islam with the argument that Islam causes people to have bad morals."
"And some Muslims attack atheism with the same logic, that "atheism" causes people to have bad morals."
"The argument is false though because atheists don't have a unified moral code."

Indeed, Atheists do not have a unified moral code, no more then they have a unified culture.
Good moral codes will end-up gaining over bad moral codes.
We have seen this continuously in the past:

Communism in Russia - in the 1930's. - FAILED
Apartheid in South Africa and Discrimination in the USA versus blacks. - FAILED
Fascism in Europe. - FAILED
All empires that subjugated conquered people - FAILED.

All these bad moral codes ended up being bad memories that we should be ashamed of...
As a modern, evolving human race, we will need to define this universal moral code, without religion interfering.

Until this happens, and until religions take their rightful place in museums, there will be more bloodshed.
Blood shed simply based on "My god is better than your god"...
... What a human view of things.
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To everyone … Reed is lying again
written by fineliving56 , November 12, 2012
Reed strikes again … he is manipulating words to suite his agenda again about the word Hourun [ virgins ] and Hoor in Quran …

Please do not believe a word he says about Quran's words .

Houriya is a word to describe women who are beautiful … it is not for mescaline term at all … hansom man when described using words like '' waseem or '' Naseh ''

Hoorun or hoor is a plural …….. for …. Houriya [ singular ] a beauty WOMEAN with beautiful big black eyes …

Hoor al Alayni … means women who have big black eyes that the white become light blue from shadow effect …. this term have been used in poetry and songs … never foe men …

Tt is actually a joke, funny that Reed calling men Hoor …. hahaha

If, we call Reed a Hoor man in Arabic according to him … then he needs to be worried … because that is not good term to describe a man, otherwise it will render him feminism looking man .

I do not know about you, but if I was a man I wouldn't want to be described as a hoor man … hahaha .
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Betty
written by fineliving56 , November 12, 2012
Thank you for bringing this video to our attention .. I was not looking for it, because I did not know it is coming this fast .

It is good trailer .. I am sure the move it self, will be good and truthful .


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Betty
written by Kaser , November 12, 2012
Indeed, thank you for the link.
I am looking forward to his film, and forum discussions after.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 12, 2012
fineliving56. You write "To everyone … Reed is lying again".

You did not read carefully m'am. I did not say anything. I quoted dictionary.

You write "If, we call Reed a Hoor man in Arabic according to him..."

You did not read carefully m'am. The dictionary quoted did not say that. It rather said that 'hoor is used both for masculine and feminine' and 'Raghib says zawwaj nahoom bihoorin een means to make companions'. Ragib is renowned linguist who compiled the dictionary.

You have to settle with the dictionary and with me.
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fineliving56
written by Reed Wilson. , November 12, 2012
Correction in above post:

You have to settle with the dictionary and NOT with me.
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@ Kaser
written by This is Rami Rustom , November 12, 2012
> As a modern, evolving human race, we will need to define this universal moral code, without religion interfering.

Our best moral code to date is Objectivism.
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Reed
written by abc , November 12, 2012
"You have to settle with the dictionary and NOT with me"

Don't tell our resident Arab loon you use a dictionary!
Just enjoy her rants!
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Abc
written by fineliving56 , November 12, 2012
I do not have time now to refute Reed on his wrong translation of the word Hoor ..

I did NOT have to read from a dictionary … because I know it off hand … but to prove, he is wrong I too have a dictionary but not bias ISLAMIC dictionary like he has that made by Muslim imam liar … I have an old dictionary before internet ever invented .. do not worry I will be back with a refute … he is lost with Arabic language, he need numerous lessens in Arabic grammar and vowels .

YOU abc …are trying to get a rise out of me … and you will not get it .

Reed is wrong … ta ta
0
response to fineliving56
written by Yibel , November 13, 2012
You ask:
"Please, Yibel, allow me this Question :
1) Are you saying, obama is nothing but a Muslim fanatic and Quran scholar who knows the violent side of islam, and he is purposely using his presidency to plot against America with the help of his Al Qaida friends members to help to destroy it,from inside out,so he can help Al Qaida to size control of the white house and there for, Islam will dominate the world ?
Or
2) Are you saying that Obama is a shrewd, far leftist, democrat whose idea of equality is so severe, that it BLIND him to the fact that Islam and Islamist are dangerous and they create the biggest threat to the safety of Americans,despite his smarts. Also who he happen to be born to a Muslim father and was made to recite Quran well, and holds tender feeling for Islam in the result of that ?
I say it is most likely option 2 .

Good questions! But does it really matter? The end result will be the same!

All it takes for evil to win is that good people do nothing!

Here's a REAL duh_swami quote - quite unlike the FAKE one the Reed Wilson keeps refering in an attempt to gain plausibility:
"You just never know when Allah is going to seize the mind of the pious...A perfectly peaceful Mahoundian, minding his own business, suddenly gets an Allah zinger out of the blue, causing him to go into a frenzy of verbal and physical assault...For this reason Mahoundisns should not be allowed to drive or operate any heavy equipment, and should be sedated for air travel...A sleeping Mahoundian is a peaceful Mahoundian..."
And they should NEVER be placed in positions of ANY importance, what-so-ever!
0
''Vowels'' is the difference between '' Hoor Al Ayyni '' [ big black eyes '' and '' Hoor tree '' .'' [ poplar tree]
written by fineliving56 , November 13, 2012
Reed : … please pay attention because this is the last time I am going to post about the word [ hoor ] that is mentioned in Quran because I have posted IT many times … enough is enough.

First of all … the word '' hoor '' in…Q 56/22 and 44/54 are not meant for masculine …they are the opposite … all feminine .

The old translation of Quran that I have, is published in 1979 before the internet …by by Dr. Ahmad Zidan.

The second one done is a Arabic -English dictionary published in 1985 … Alayas Antoine Alayas

I have others … all *** contradict*** your Islamic bias translation … that is a fact .

In all … the words '' Hoor al ayyni '' means …'' The houri with beautiful eyes '' ..or '' women with big, lustrous eyes '' or … companions with beautiful, big and lovely eyes .

The words '' Hoor al ayyni '' with vowels …'' O'' , on top '' H'' …and ''O '' on top of the '' R'' …that will make the word, to mean, '' big black eyes'' …

It always comes before the word Alayyni [ eyes ] … it is an ejective to describe the black big eyes that, they are so black, the white of the eye, looks light blue … that is called '' hooro al Ayyini '' .

Now …

There is another word with the same spelling [ Hoor ] but with different vowels which are :
the vowel '' A'' ..on top of the '' H '' … and .. no vowel on top of '' O '' [ called sekoon ] .. that word will mean ….'' tree poplar ''

Hoor … has to be fallowed with '' Ayyni '' .. for it to mean '' big black eyes '' .. it does not come alone ..

AS YOU READ …. IN QURAN, IN BOTH AYEAS … THE WORD '' HOOR '' WAS FALLOWED WITH THE WORD EYES .

To top all that ..

Just google … '' Explore Quran '' and write the words '' big black eyes '' … it will come… the Ayas 44/54 and 56/ 22 … described exactly the way I said it … not what you wrote . …

Besides …

why would Allah promise musclier companions … to Muslims men and DESCRIBE THEM, AS MEN WITH BIG BOSSISM VIRGINS THAT NEVER BEEN TUCHED BEFORE .

As you can see … you were fishing and your net came up empty .

'' Hoor alayyni '' … in Quran and out side Quran are words meant for women and NOT for men .

I will challenge anyone you bring, who will say ..that in Quran '' hoor al ayyni '' meant for masculine AND feminine … it IS ONLY FOR WOMEN .

I am done with this lesson



OK … I am finished with this lesson



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Fineliving
written by Kafirwala , November 13, 2012
In my opinion, you need not have taken so much pains to make Reed understand the meaning of the word 'hoor'. Your first post itself stating that Allah's qualifications to the term like big- breasted, dark- eyed, untouched by man and jinns are enough to convey Allah's intentions (sometime back in one of my posts, I had pointed out that the expression 'untouched by man and jinns' could not have emanated from a decent man, only a lecher with a high degree of libido will use such expressions.) was enough to convince any right- thinking person, but of course, not Reed Wilson or any of his cronies, the reason being these zombies are not sleeping, but feigning sleep. Reed Wilson may keep quiet now, but after sometime he will reappear again with his erroneous, faulty dictionary meaning and will try to mislead the gullible.
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Movie
written by Malem , November 13, 2012
So the trailer was pretty bad, quality was low and of course the content jsut made to inflame people which is what Terry Jones does. Good to see the support on this site from posters for Terry Jones, the same guy who wants to do away with all gay people, who protests at military funerals in front of parents trying to bury their children and yelling they deserved it, and that more should perish. Real quality citizen to be associated with, then again its Betty so I understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyUU66qNuE
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Kafirwala
written by Dwito , November 13, 2012
will try to mislead the gullible.


sir, I always appreciate and honour your posts for their high content value. But sir, sorry, I can't accept this remark. People thronging here are not gullible any more. So don't worry about that pl.
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Hour is essentially a female: fineliving56.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 13, 2012
fineliving. I a sorry that you are bothered so much to prove the hoor as female.

You write "In all … the words '' Hoor al ayyni '' means …'' The houri with beautiful eyes '' ..or '' women with big, lustrous eyes '' or … companions with beautiful, big and lovely eyes."

This is your own claim fineliving with authority of being Shami. You are so sure that only female can have 'beautiful eyes'. I have a Shami friend, Pascal Mashalani. She sings also and does not have so much proficiency in Arabic language.

Not every one in the heaven is promised a hour.

Remain ignorant.
0
...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 13, 2012
Dear abc. Thank you for your counsel "Don't tell our resident Arab loon you use a dictionary! Just enjoy her rants!". I have noted. Is she a she?

0
...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 13, 2012
Libralist. You write "Stick to quoting Islamic scriptures and the trash spouted by Ol' Camel Turd and you will realize how hollow you sound."

I am sorry I dont understand what is 'Ol' Camel Turd'.
0
For Mr. Anand.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 13, 2012
Who is a Muslim? It is important that the reader be made aware of the following:

Islam/Muslim-It is derived from the Arabic verb Aslama meaning to Submit to (the will of the one and only Allah). It is the religion PAR EXCELLENCE of SUBMISSION and a follower of Islam is called a Muslim.
ISLAM means SUBMISSION only, and has nothing to do with PEACE which is SALAM.

Quran says:

3:67 Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian but he was true in faith and bowed his will to Allah's (which is Islam) [Hanifa Musliman] and he joined not gods with Allah.


In fact, the Quran itself asserts, that all and every Israelite or Jew is a Muslim:

2:127 And remember Abraham and Isma`il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us for thou art the All-Hearing the All-Knowing.

128 "Our Lord! Make of us Muslims [Muslimeen] bowing to Thy (Will) and of our progeny a people Muslim [ummata Muslimata] bowing to Thy (Will) and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning most-Merciful.

131. Behold! His Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to me)" [aslima] He said: "I bow (my will) to [aslamtu] the Lord and Cherisher of the universe."

132. And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons and so did Jacob; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the faith for you; then die not except in the faith of Islam [Muslimoona]"

133. Were you witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers of Abraham Isma`il and Isaac the one (true) Allah to Him we bow (in Islam) [Muslimoona]"

134 That was a People that have passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did and you of what you do! of their merits there is no question in your case!

135 They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! the religion of Abraham the true [Hanifan] and he joined not gods with Allah."

136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes [Israelites] and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)[Muslimoon]"


0
For Mr. Anand. Who is Muslim.(Contd.)
written by Reed Wilson. , November 13, 2012
Quran says:

3:64 Say: "O people of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will) [Muslimoona]."

3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma'il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes [Israelites] and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam) [Muslimoona]"

4: 163 We have sent thee inspiration as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him; We sent inspiration to Abraham Ismail Isaac Jacob and the Tribes to Jesus Job Jonah Aaron and Solomon and to David We gave the Psalms.

5: 5 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are chaste women who are believers but chaste women among the People of the Book revealed before your time when you give them their due dowers and desire chastity not lewdness nor secret intrigues. If anyone rejects faith fruitless is his work and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

5: 44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses); therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews by the Prophets who bowed (as in Islam) [Aslamoo] to Allah's will by the Rabbis and the doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men but fear Me and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) unbelievers.

22: 78 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive (with sincerity and under discipline): He has chosen you and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (Revelation); that the Apostle may be a witness for you and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer give regular Charity and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector the Best to protect and the Best to help!

















0
Dwito
written by Kafirwala , November 13, 2012
I am really sorry that you got the feeling that I referred to all readers visiting this site as gullible. I do value them and I know none of them is gullible and nobody will be taken in by the tricks played by the Islam apologists like abc, kope, malem etc. here. But, look at these fools. Eventhough the half- truths and untruths uttered by them in a vain bid to justify and glorify Islam are exposed time and again, they do not stop their filthy games. Why? What is their motivating factor? My suspicion is that they consider at least some of the readers as gullible and they think these readers will swallow their sh!t. In fact, the term gullible I used from their perspective.
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Remain ignorant …Muslims Reed
written by fineliving56 , November 14, 2012
You are an ignorant and a liar … MR , REED …. and everyone knows that here …

Your dilemma is …. You are ASHAMED of the fact that your disgusting Quran…*** promised Houris with LARG BREASTS and beautiful eyes, no one has touched, virgins ***

And that is why you lie and lie … and LIE

Sure there is men with beautiful black eyes, Like the Movie star Omar Sharif … but, when is the last time you have seen a muscular man with big bosoms …. ..huh ?????

Do not answer, I am sure it is going to be a lie like the rest of your posts …

Watch me repeat the most shameful parts of Quran to you … Muslim Reed ???!!!

** Quran promises ** Young, shy, virgins girls who have large bosoms with beautiful large black eyes ' hoor al ayani '' who never been tuched .** carrying silver and gold glasses of flowing wine …. fresh servant, hansom boys as shiny as spread pearls, will be servicing Muslim men resting, wearing silk ropes in tents on silk lush pillows …plenty of fruits of all kinds, stacked on gold plates … Is that an Islamic heaven?? … it is more like an Islamic brothel !!

These are FACTS in your book Quran, Mr Reed … and you can NOT run away from the filth that in it, no matter how much you try .



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...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 14, 2012
fineliving. What is obnoxious in 'Young, shy, virgins girls who have large bosoms with beautiful large black eyes ' hoor al ayani '' who never been tuched .** carrying silver and gold glasses of flowing wine …. fresh servant, hansom boys as shiny as spread pearls, will be servicing Muslim men resting, wearing silk ropes in tents on silk lush pillows …plenty of fruits of all kinds, stacked on gold plates' mentioned by you?
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About Reed and many other Muslims
written by Gnostic , November 14, 2012
Reed and many other muslims are so deeply influenced by the quran but nothing else that they cannot realize its stupidity any more.

Reed is quoting again and again: "People of the book!"

Why is this so stupid? It is absolutely stupid because during Muhammad there were already hundreds of thousand books existing and many of them collected in libraries such as the Great Library of Alexandria.

No christian or jew called himself a member of the people of the book or anything similar.

People belong to a group by their ethnicity, language or citizenship, even by religion but not by a book.

Even during Maoism the chinese did not call themselves people of the red book nor did the germans call themselves people of Mein Kampf during WW II.

It is also stupid because the quran is suggesting that all the people of the book constitute a homgeneous group but thats also wrong since there are different denominations, schools and sects with different viewpoints.

And most people did even have a book because this was too expensive and most people could not read at all.

And today? The same thing. No jew or christian would feel responsible for anything that happened in the name of the people of the book because there are no such people!


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About the book || Reviews by: Steven Simpson | Abul Kasem | Prof Sami Alrabaa | Ibn Kammuna

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'Islamic Jihad' in Bangla
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Aasma Riaz: "Thank you so much for your book "Islamic Jihad" and showing me the "Big Picture". For 7-8 days, I was glued to your book, absorbing so much information that I did not know existed. You have crisply covered so much in your book and quoted historical references extensively. I am just overwhelmed with different emotions after reading your book..., a priceless tome."

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