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Was Muhammad Illiterate? The Hadith Evidence

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In this article, I compile multiple hadiths that gives evidence towards Prophet Muhammad being a literate person. In next part, I plan to discuss the Qur’anic evidence related to this subject.

Arabic language is not precise language by any means. I do realize that when it is written “the prophet wrote”, it does not necessarily entail that the prophet himself did the writing. However, I do believe the hadiths cited below, in combination with the part II discussion of the Qur’anic evidence related to this matter, will lead an objective researcher to conclude that, in fact, prophet Muhammad was able to read and write.

Hadiths below are just a part of the multiple hadiths that point us to thinking that prophet Muhammad was able to read and write. There are many other hadith that point to this fact also. I chose not to include them for fear of repetition or for worry about the length of this article. I am one of those people who see that a web article that goes beyond four or five pages will lose the interest of the reader.

I numbered the quoted hadiths below so as to give comments about some of them. The reader can view the hadiths themselves toward the final part of this article. I present my comments first.

Comments

  1. A general comment is that multiplicity of hadiths state “the prophet wrote”. It is difficult to accept the claim that this means that Muhammad had a scribe do the writing for him in every instance.
  2. Some hadiths point to a direct fact that the prophet was able to read and write. For instance, in hadith number three below, we see the prophet on his death bed asking for a writing paper so he can write on it.
  3. In hadith number four, we see the prophet himself “rubbing out” certain words from the Hudaibiya treaty. How can this be if Muhammad did not know how to read and write? Muhammad had to know which words he needed to rub out. Such knowledge does not happen if one cannot read written words.
  4. Hadith number six below talks about the first time the angel came to Muhammad and asked him to read twice. Muhammad’s answer was telling the angel and repeating that he is not a reader. The expression in Arabic that Muhammad said was “Ma ana biqari”, which means “I am not a reader”. In Arabic, this expression is not clear at all. It could mean that Muhammad was saying “I can’t read”. But also equally could mean “I do not want to read” (at this time). By no means Muhammad’s expression here makes us deduce that Muhammad was illiterates in the sense that he could not read or write to start with. Now, most Muslims in the world read the story of the angel appearing to Muhammad, and interpret Muhammad’s expression to mean that he was an illiterate man, who could not read or write. In fact, this interpretation is a misguided one indeed. Allah of Islam is an all-knowing being. If he knew that Muhammad was not able to read and write, why would he send an angle to ask him to read to start with. I find this angel story providing evidence to the fact that Muhammad was able to read and write.
  5. Muslims believe that Muhammad was not able to read and write is a faith-strengthening factor for them. They think that an illiterate man, who got such a language-eloquent book, must be a prophet of the almighty. What makes the Qur’an more miraculous is the “illiterate” man behind it. This Muslim belief is actually a fallacy. Far from being a piece of top-level literature, the Qur’an is replete with linguistic errors. In fact, Arabic grammar rules were violated in multiplicity of places. Qur’anic experts on the language of the Qur’an struggle with the grammatical problems of the Qur’an, and on finding “ways” to justify them.
  6. Hadith number 11 is a direct evidence that Muhammad was able to read and write, as it states “the text of the document was written by the prophet.”
  7. I do believe that the hadiths below testify to the fact that it is more probable than not that Muhammad was able to read and write.

In the second part of this work, I will discuss the Qur’anic evidence related to the topic under consideration.

Bukhari

  1. Narrated Anas bin Malik: Once the prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the prophet (Book #3, Hadith #65)
  2. Narrated Abdullah bin Abbas: Allah's Apostle wrote to Caesar and invited him to Islam and sent him his letter with Dihya Al-Kalbi whom Allah's Apostle ordered to hand it over to the Governor of Busra who would forward it to Caesar… (Book #52, Hadith #191)
  3. Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, "It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. (Note: It is apparent from this Hadith that Ibn 'Abbes had witnessed the event and came out saying this statement. The truth is not so, for Ibn 'Abbas used to say this statement on narrating the Hadith and he had not witnessed the event personally. See Fath Al-Bari Vol. 1, p.220 footnote.) (See Hadith No. 228, Vol. 4).  (Book #3, Hadith #114)
  4. Narrated Al-Bara bin 'Azib: When Allah's Apostle concluded a peace treaty with the people of Hudaibiya, Ali bin Abu Talib wrote the document and he mentioned in it, "Muhammad, Allah's Apostle ." The pagans said, "Don't write: 'Muhammad, Allah's Apostle', for if you were an apostle we would not fight with you." Allah's Apostle asked Ali to rub it out, but Ali said, "I will not be the person to rub it out." Allah's Apostle rubbed it out and made peace with them on the condition that the prophetand his companions would enter Mecca and stay there for three days, and that they would enter with their weapons in cases.  (Book #49, Hadith #862)
  5. Narrated Al-Bara: When the prophet intended to perform the 'Umra he sent a person to the people of Mecca asking their permission to enter Mecca. They stipulated that he would not stay for more than three days and would not enter it except with sheathed arms and would not preach (Islam) to any of them. So Ali bin Abi-Talib started writing the treaty between them. He wrote, "This is what Muhammad, Apostle of Allah has agreed to." The (Meccans) said, "If we knew that you (Muhammad) are the Apostle of Allah, then we would not have prevented you and would have followed you. But write, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed to...' "On that Allah's Apostle said, "By Allah, I am Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, and, by Allah, I am Apostle of 'Allah." Allah's Apostle used not to write; so he asked 'Ali to erase the expression of Apostle of Allah. On that 'Ali said, "By Allah I will never erase it." Allah's Apostle said (to 'Ali), "Let me see the paper." When 'Ali showed him the paper, the prophet erased the expression with his own hand. When Allah's Apostle had entered Mecca and three days had elapsed, the Meccans came to 'Ali and said, "Let your friend (i.e. the prophet) quit Mecca." Ali informed Allah's Apostle about it and Allah's Apostle said, "Yes," and then he departed.  (Book #53, Hadith #408)
  6. Narrated 'Aisha: The commencement of (the Divine Inspirations to) Allah's Apostle was in the form of true dreams. The Angel came to him and said, "Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created all exists), has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is Most Generous, Who has taught (the writing) by the pen (the first person to write was prophet Idris. (96.1-4)  (Book #60, Hadith #480)
  7. Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."  (Book #70, Hadith #573)

Muslim

  1. Abu Laila 'Abdullah b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. Sahl reported that the elderly persons of (the tribe) had informed Sahl b. Abu Hathma that 'Abdullah b. Sahl and Muhayyisa went out to Khaibar under some distress which had afflicted them. Muhayyisa came and informed that Abdutlah b. Sahl had been killed, and (his dead body) had been thrown in a well or in a ditch. He came to the Jews and said: By Allah, it is you who have killed him. They said: By Allah, we have not killed him. He then came to his people, and made mention of that to them. Then came he and his brother Huwayyisa, and he was older than he, and 'Abd al-Rahman b. Sahl. Then Muhayyisa went to speak, and it was he who had accompanied ('Abdullah) to Khaibar, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to Muhayyisa: Observe greatness of the great (he meant the seniority of age). Then Huwayyisa spoke and then Muhayyisa also spoke. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: They should either pay blood-wit for your companion, or be prepared for war. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) wrote about it to them (to the Jews). They wrote: Verily, by Allah, we have not killed him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to Huwayyisa and Muhayyisa and Abd al-Rahman: Are you prepared to take oath in order to entitle yourselves for the blood-wit of your companion? They said: No. He (the Holy prophet) said: Then the Jews will take oath (of their innocence). They said: They are not Muslims. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), however, himself paid the blood-wit to them and sent to them one hundred camels until they entered into their houses, Sahl said: One red she-camel among them kicked me.  (Book #016, Hadith #4126)
  2. It has been narrated on the authority of Anas that the prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him) wrote to Chosroes (King of Persia), Caesar (Emperor of Rome), Negus (King of Abyssinia) and every (other) despot inviting them to Allah, the Exalted. And this Negus was not the one for whom the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said the funeral prayers.  (Book #019, Hadith #4382)


Dawud

  1. Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: Sa'id said: Umar ibn al-Khattab said: Blood-money is meant for the clan of the slain, and she will not inherit from the blood-money of her husband. Ad-Dahhak ibn Sufyan said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wrote to me that I should give a share to the wife of Ashyam ad-Dubabi from the blood-money of her husband. So Umar withdrew his opinion. Ahmad ibn Salih said: AbdurRazzaq transmitted this tradition to us from Ma'mar, from az-Zuhri on the authority of Sa'id. In this version he said: The prophet (peace_be_upon_him) made him governor over the bedouins. (Book #18, Hadith #2921)
  2. Narrated Mujja'ah ibn Mirarah al-Yamani: Mujja'ah went to the prophet (peace_be_upon_him) asking him for the blood-money of his brother whom Banu Sadus from Banu Dhuhl had killed. The prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Had I appointed blood-money for a polytheist, I should have appointed it for your brother. But I shall give you compensation for him. So the prophet (peace_be_upon_him) wrote (a document) for him that he should be given a hundred camels which were to be acquired from the fifth taken from the polytheists of Banu Dhuhl. So he took a part of them, for Banu Dhuhl embraced Islam. He then asked AbuBakr for them later on, and brought to him the document of the prophet (peace_be_upon_him). So AbuBakr wrote for him that he should be given one thousand two hundred sa's from the sadaqah of al-Yamamah; four thousand (sa's) of wheat, four thousand (sa's) of barley, and four thousand (sa's) of dates. The text of the document written by theprophet (peace_be_upon_him) for Mujja'ah was as follows: "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. This document is from Muhammad, the prophet, to Mujja'ah ibn Mirarah of Banu Sulma. I have given him one hundred camels from the first fifth acquired from the polytheist of Banu Dhuhl as a compensation for his brother."  (Book #19, Hadith #2984)
  3. Narrated Yazid ibn Abdullah: We were at Mirbad. A man with dishevelled hair and holding a piece of red skin in his hand came. We said: You appear to be a bedouin. He said: Yes. We said: Give us this piece of skin in your hand. He then gave it to us and we read it. It contained the text: "From Muhammad, Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), to Banu Zuhayr ibn Uqaysh. If you bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, offer prayer, pay zakat, pay the fifth from the booty, and the portion of the prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and his special portion (safi), you will be under by the protection of Allah and His Apostle." We then asked: Who wrote this document for you? He replied: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).  (Book #19, Hadith #2993)
  4. Narrated Amir ibn Shahr: When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) appeared as a prophet, Hamdan said to me: Will you go to this man and negotiate for us (with him)? If you accept something, we shall accept it, and if you disapprove of something, we shall disapprove of it. I said: Yes. So I proceeded until I came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). I liked his motive and my people embraced Islam. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wrote the document for Umayr Dhu Marran. He also sent Malik ibn Murarah ar-Rahawi to all the (people of) Yemen. So Akk Dhu Khaywan embraced Islam. Akk was told: Go to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and obtain his protection for your town and property. He therefore came (to him) and the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wrote a document for him: "In the name of Allah, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful. From Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, to Akk Dhu Khaywan. If he is true his land, property and slave, he has the security and the protection of Allah, and Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah. Written by Khalid ibn Sa'id ibn al-'As."  (Book #19, Hadith#3021)
  5. Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The prophet (peace_be_upon_him) wrote a letter to Heraclius: "From Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, to Hiraql (Heraclius), Chief of the Byzantines. Peace be to those who follow the guidance." Ibn Yahya reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas that AbuSufyan said to him: We then came to see Hiraql (Heraclius) who seated us before him. He then called for the letter from the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). Its contents were: "In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful, from Muhammad the Apostle of Allah, to Hiraql, chief of Byzantines. Peace be to those who follow the guidance. To proceed."  (Book #41, Hadith #5117)
  6. Narrated Muslim ibn al-Harith ibn Muslim at-Tamimi: A similar tradition (to No. 5061) has been transmitted by Muslim ibn al-Harith ibn Muslim at-Tamimi on the authority of his father from the prophet (peace_be_upon_him) through a different chain of narrators, up to "protection from it". But this version says: "before speaking to anyone". In this version Ali ibn Sahl said that his father told him. Ali and Ibn al-Musaffa said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) sent us on an expedition. When we reached the place of attack, I galloped my horse and outstripped my companions, and the people of that locality received me with a great noise. I said to them: Say "There is no god but Allah," and you will be protected. They said this. My companions blamed me, saying: You deprived us of the booty. When we came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), they told him what I had done. So he called me, appreciating what I had done, and said: Allah has recorded for you so and so (a reward) for every man of them. AbdurRahman said: I forgot the reward. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) then said: I shall write a will for you after me. He did this and stamped it, and gave it to me, saying....He then mentioned the rest of the tradition to the same effect. Ibn al-Musaffa said: I heard al-Harith ibn Muslim ibn al-Harith at-Tamimi transmitting it from his father.  (Book #41, Hadith #5062)
Comments (60)Add Comment
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The Prophet(pbuh) was taught be Allah to read
written by Aisha , July 30, 2012
The Prophet (pbuh) was an unlettered man. However, after he was bestowed with his Prophethood he was taught to read. Imam Aul Abbas al Qurtubi the commentator of Sahih Muslim has proven from such hadith that you have stated that Prophet (pbuh) knew how to read and write, he also answered how this does not oppose him being an Ummi Prophet and he uses the same first verse of the Quran 29:48 (And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.), he further states that this will be considered as your miracle and will "ADD MORE TO THE TRUTHFULNMESS OF YOUR PROPHETHOOD" [Refer to Al-Mufhim (4/637-638)] Imam Badr ud-din Ayni (rah), Imam al-Qadhi Iyaadh (rah), Imam al Baji (rah), Imam Abu Zar Harwi, Imam Abul Fath al Naysaburi and many other scholars have approved this fact.
Surah Al-Alaq states "Who taught by the pen. Taught man what he knew now." The Prophet (pbuh) himself was also taught by God through Gabriel. If a person is unlettered that does not mean he cannot learn.
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Ibn Kammuna
written by fineliving56 , July 30, 2012
I was waiting for an Article that discuses the fact that Muhammad WAS an literate man and not what was believed to be and finely, thanks to you it is here …

I know it has been written about, in books … but to read it in, a short, precise and to the point in article with all the evidence anyone would need, is satisfying ..

Once, I posted a list of the numbers of hedeeths that indicative of Muhammad's knowledge of the Arabic language, and I was told by the Muslims that reside in IW , that, it is not enough and not efficient … so this morning, your Article was a pleasant surprise, to proof the opposite.

I like to add another logical proof to negate the notion that Muhammad was an illiterate man.

Before Khadija, married Muhammad … It is NOT feasible or believable for her, the experienced well known owner of thriving Business, to HIRE an alliterate man, who cannot make out the Arabic letters, to lead her merchant caravans and to intrust him with all her goods she sent to sell travailing up north to Land of Sham in Syria, iraq, Persia …

She was not a naive women for her to choose an illiterate man to do this job! .. it would had been a poor and el advised decision for her do that .

The only way to understand her decision is to assert, that Muhammad WAS, in fact, able to read and write and make out simple math … AT LEAST

Thanks again

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...
written by Reed Wilson. , July 30, 2012
Ibn Kammuna. Normally we are not very particular about schooling of apostles/messengers of Allah. No one bothers where Abraham was educated or if he was or not. So also for others.

The confusion arose due to ahadith which you mention and due to hadis follower Quran translators.

Allah used word Ummi for Muhammad as it was used by Bani Israil for non Bani Israel. They boast that an apostle must be BI clan and not ummi. Allah clarified this in Quran.

As Aisha said above, Allah taught him. When He said Iqra, Muhammad learned everything. Quran says:

وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ ۖ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَـٰهُنَا وَإِلَـٰهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ ﴿٤٦﴾ وَكَذَٰلِكَ أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ ۚ فَالَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ ۖ وَمِنْ هَـٰؤُلَاءِ مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ ۚ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الْكَافِرُونَ ﴿٤٧﴾ وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ ۖ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ

"As such, I have sent down to you the Book. Those to whom We gave the Book believe in it, and so do some of these. None reject Our verses except the unbelievers. Never before this did you recite any book, or inscribe it with your right hand. If you had done so, those who follow falsehood would have doubted." 29:47-48

Even in ahadith there is one where Rasul asked for pen and ink for writing at the time of his death. I dont believe hadis but I do notice your omission of your favorite 'source'.



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Hello brother Wilson
written by Ibn. Kammuna , July 30, 2012
Hello brother
What is my favorite "source" you mention? thank you
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IBN. KAMMUMA
written by INFIDEL , July 30, 2012
thank you for the enlightenment. i love this website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , July 30, 2012
Duke Indian. You write "The history of Bible is irrelevant with reference to...."

I needed it.

"What is relevant is whether these stories are copied or not".

It is not copying when writer of all scripts is same. Let me recite for you 41:43

مَّا يُقَالُ لَكَ إِلَّا مَا قَدْ قِيلَ لِلرُّسُلِ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَذُو مَغْفِرَةٍ وَذُو عِقَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

"Nothing is said to you which had not been said to other apostles before you. Surely your Lord is the lord of forgiveness, but also the lord of severe retribution."

Thank God I could retrieve this verse. May it not be my optimism that you will understand now.

"I challenge you whether any muslim scholar can explain these stories without the help of Bible/ Talmud."

Why muslim scholars? I accept your challenge.

"Even the suras named Ibrahim and Yousef which is supposed to be entirely used to tell the stories of the respective historical Jew patriarchs Abraham and Joseph are also inadequate in details and devoid of chronological continuity and described in a very crude manner".

How? Names of suras are arbitrarily given by the early 'muslim sholars'. They were stupid. The names are leaving practice. Quite many suras have more than one names.

"The fact is that there is no chronological order anywhere in the Quran."

Which book is arranged in chronological order? What is your concept of CO?

"Even the chapters or suras in Quran are arranged according to the length of its text, not according to chronological order in which it was revealed.

Each sura is independent book and Quran is a compendium of them all. You may alter the arrangement it will come to same. Here is sura 112 you can make it sura 1

بِسْمِ اللَّـهِ الرَّحْمَـٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
قُلْ هُوَ اللَّـهُ أَحَدٌ ﴿١﴾ اللَّـهُ الصَّمَدُ ﴿٢﴾ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ ﴿٣﴾ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

There will not be any difference. Arrangement by length of the suras does not alter the message. In my private library I arranged books by size. I number them and make a classified list.

Thank you for your post.


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...
written by Reed Wilson. , July 30, 2012
Hello brother Ibn. Kammuna.

"What is my favorite "source" you mention?

I mean 'ahadis i mubaraka'. I was being sarcastic. How mean of me.

thank you
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Reed.
written by Dwito , July 30, 2012
I was being sarcastic.


You were ever serious also!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a virgin knowledge!!

Thank you.
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I just wonder
written by Tanstaafl jw , July 31, 2012
Why couldn't someone edit it?
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Literate or not, who cares?
written by Guy Macher , July 31, 2012
Mohamed was a liar, looter, rapist, murderer, and pedophile. Whether he could read hardly matters. He is history's most evil man.
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Thank you FineLiving and Infidel and Wilson
written by Ibn. Kammuna , July 31, 2012
Hi,
thank you folks for the kind words, and for the clarification also Wilson.
Peace
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The Illiterate
written by balam , July 31, 2012
I would not be proud of a leader who with all his frailties being a murderer,rapist,child molester and deceiver is also ILLITERATE.HOW COULD JIBREEL ask Mohammad to 'READ' .That angel if it were from all knowing God should have known that Mohammad could not read.Hence either there was no Jibreel or Mohammad as usual was LYING between his teeth.He had mastery in the ART OF DECEPTION.FINALLY,VERY GOOD ARTICLE BY Mr.KAMMUNA.VERY WELL RESEARCHED.
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@AISHA
written by balam , July 31, 2012
After reading your highly Intellectual comments about Allah personally teaching Mohammad how to read,I am very impressed.No wonder Muslims believe that Mohammad flew on a Mule without any body seeing him from Mecca to Jerusalem first before flying to 7th heaven.Probably,there were no direct flights from Mecca to Heaven.How did he escape the heat at that speed.It sounds very unscientific to me.I heard a number of DONKEYS thinking like that but never seen one flying.Now,I believe that EVEN PIGS CAN FLY.Please help me I am going INSANE.Which MADRASSA did you study at,my dear AISHA.I might go there to educate myself.
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Aisha/Reed- It is difficult to confirm the literacy theory of Mohammed based on Islamic scriptures.
written by Islam-Watch Pastor , July 31, 2012
Muslims general belief that their champion was an illiterate pagan before Allah called him and gave him such a melodious and poetic book like the Quran, was said to be their major proofs of its divinity. That is why no matter How many hadiths you quote and the quranic verses that support, it you are not likely to get the support for the literacy theory. Literacy theory does not support the prophet hood of Mohammed ,since most the true prophet of Jews are literate and got their messages written down by the prophet himself and not some years later after being a recited for years after the death of the Recital general before it was committed to writing as it was the case with Islam.

Truly the content of the Quran did not reveal any intelligent work of a literate person. A book full of errors and contradictions, grammatical errors without intelligent transition of thought, with meaningless repetition full of historical and scientific blunders that cannot pass a literacy test in any ignorant society not to talk of being a divine revelation of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresence God.

The author of this article have tried to give evidence to suggests that Mohammed could not have being an illiterate Messenger of Allah after all, but this position is very difficult to confirm considering the content of the Quran. The Islamic scriptures made us to know that the present Quran was hurriedly compiled from the fading memory of old and dying companions of Mohammed, of which majority of these where burnt because they don’t add up. What a mess. These deluded and brain washed morons gave birth to the most violent and hate creed ever passed to men as a divine book of a sort.

We reject Mohammed as a messenger of God, not because of his literacy or illiteracy status but it is because of its content. There are many scriptures in the Bible(an encyclopedia of 66 books with 40 authors) where the authors dictated to someone else to write, yet these messages flow together and are harmonious with other messages from the same Spirit, but the Quran is not so. A single book of one author Mohammed within just 23 years yet it was a jumble mess and full of hate creed and violence.

This is the crux of the matter and not literacy or illiteracy.
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Balam, Aisha
written by Islam-Watch Pastor , July 31, 2012
I am not sure Aisha will reply you, she appear like a Pass bye comment as many of them do here, the name look new to me. I am sorry, myself am no longer a regular contributor, but is Aisha a regular here?

I personally would have love to test her Madrassa knowledge if she can stay a while here. She did not believe in the literacy theory of Mohammed, but believe that he was an illiterate pagan Arab but taught by Allah and that bestore divinity to the Quran. This is the general belief of most Muslims. Literacy theory does not work in favour of the Quran, because is a jumble mess that could not have being from a literate Prophet.

Aisha, am I speaking your mind?

Cheers
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Ibn Kammuna
written by Islam-Watch Pastor , July 31, 2012
The author of this article have tried to give evidence to suggests that Mohammed could not have being an illiterate Messenger of Allah after all, but this position is very difficult to confirm considering the content of the Quran. The Islamic scriptures made us to know that the present Quran was hurriedly compiled from the fading memory of old and dying companions of Mohammed, of which majority of these where burnt because they don’t add up. What a mess. These deluded and brain washed morons gave birth to the most violent and hate creed ever passed to men as a divine book of a sort.

We reject Mohammed as a messenger of God, not because of his literacy or illiteracy status but it is because of its content. There are many scriptures in the Bible(an encyclopedia of 66 books with 40 authors) where the authors dictated to someone else to write, yet these messages flow together and are harmonious with other messages from the same Spirit, but the Quran is not so. A single book of one author Mohammed within just 23 years yet it was a jumble mess and full of hate creed and violence. This is the crux of the matter and not literacy or illiteracy.

Cheers
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 31, 2012
Clement. Do you know where is Aisha Ahmad, our learned author, these days?
She is not showing up. Apostatized or writing with some other pseudonym!
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written by vbv , July 31, 2012
It clearly shows that islam is a fraudulent cult based on lies and distortion of tales from the Bible. Muhamad cannot be illiterate ,especially when he was supposed to be involved in trading activities for his boss Khadija,who later becomes his wife. Or was he just a hand labourer loading and unloading cargos on the camels and also cleaning the camel dungs ( perhaps ,this was the reason he found medecinal properties in camel urine !).
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Clement
written by dead or aliive , July 31, 2012
We reject Muhammad because he had no mercy,
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 31, 2012

dead or aliive
Clement We reject Muhammad because he had no mercy.

Who else includes in 'we'? You and Clement or Clement and all dead or alive?
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Reed Wilson
written by dead or aliive , July 31, 2012
`We`means all people who dispises bullies like Mohammad and those who behave like barbarians and killing people without mercy.And do it because they can.Heartless `tin mem`.
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Reed
written by Islam-Watch Pastor , July 31, 2012
You asked "Clement. Do you know where is Aisha Ahmad, our learned author, these days? "

I don't know perhaps Mr Khan the Manager can tell us. I missed that woman greatly, I love reading her articles with her feminine touch to all Mohammed sexual escaped, he was an expert in exposing the Islamic pedophile prophet and all his lust.

I am not sure she is the one writing here. No one will leave Islam and still come back to it. Islam is equal to bondage.

Aisha please enjoy your freedom wherever you are, even if you are not a Christian. For it is better to be a pagan or Atheist than to be a Muslim.

Regards
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Illiteracy of Muhammad
written by Gnostic , August 01, 2012
Why do you non-believers still believe so much in the accuracy of quran and hadith? Many western scholars do not think that the hadith are reliable.
And the quran? How many years are there between Muhammads dead and Uthmans collection of the quranic texts?
The quran was not written by god and not by Muhammad either. It was Uthman who collected the texts supposed to be from Muhammad and put it in a new order.
There are so many other things not yet known and the illiteracy or literacy of Muhammad is not the most important.
Muhammad had advisers who knew the ancient jewish and christian and even gnostic sources and how to use them. There are still many errors and contradictions in the quran indicating that some people involved did not really understand what they were working about ...
What we really need is a scientifc and unbiased work by experts who are experienced in the language and modern methods.

Forget about hadith and forget about the guys from Al Azhaar or any other muslim university. They can only memorise and they will over and over again use the same muslim sources.



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written by Reed Wilson. , August 01, 2012
Clement. Thanks for your post. You write "I don't know perhaps Mr Khan the Manager can tell us. I missed that woman greatly, I love reading her articles with her feminine touch to all Mohammed sexual escaped, he was an expert in exposing the Islamic pedophile prophet and all his lust."

You must be missing and hope Mr. Khan will appease you. You may be right that Aisha Ahmad is a male as you say "he was an expert in exposing the Islamic pedophile prophet and all his lust."

Mohammad.A. Khan and Dr. Brahamchari also dont show up. Dr. Abul Kasim I know is otherwise busy.

My best wishes for all of them including Aisha Ahmad, irrespective their gender.

What about your book on our deliberations? I hope you will include Mr. duh-swami's observation of Aug, 2012. I am waiting for the book. Must be interesting!
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 01, 2012
Gnostic. Your above post has substance.
You write "Many western scholars do not think that the hadith are reliable. And the quran?

I agree the Western scholars. What do they say about Quran? Do they agree Uthman theory?

You write "It was Uthman who collected the texts supposed to be from Muhammad and put it in a new order".

You said earlier that Muhammad did not write Quran.

You write "There are still many errors and contradictions in the quran".

What are they?

You write "What we really need is a scientific and unbiased work by experts who are experienced in the language and modern methods."

I agree and appreciate this points. May be there are studies. Not to my knowledge.

You write "Forget about hadith and forget about the guys from Al Azhaar or any other muslim university. They can only memorize and they will over and over again use the same muslim sources".

You are absolutely right. They will go to Tabri, Ibn Hisham and hadis books which are all lies.
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re: Reed
written by Gnostic , August 01, 2012
I dont have the solution. Nobody has. But we can look for a new approach.

You agree that Hadith are wrong as well as Prophet Biography and so on. We also hardly know anything about Muhammad. We only have the quran.

German scholars use the term "Sitz im Leben" which means "place in life". This means how where the texts used by whom?

I do not think that there was one Muhammad who told the quaranic texts to the crowd. Nobody would have seen any use in it.

I think many texts were circulating even before Muhammad, I mean all the texts which are close to jewish and christian texts such as Joseph, The Cave and some more, more or less arabised or still in arameic.

There are also some texts very close to jewish-christianity. The food rules at the beginning of The Table resemble very much some verses in Acts.

Perhaps there was a pre-islamic community of hanifs who had similar doctrines like jewish-christians. (Even the Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas suggest that some jewis were regarding jesus as prophet.

Perhaps there are some layers from Muhammad himself in the texts supposed of meccan origin.

But I would also say that there are later additions and redactions. Perhaps done by Uthman or whoever made the final redaction with many insetions and this final redactor could also be responsible for the many errors and contradiictions - yes there are many, but here I refer only to some misunderstandings of the biblical vorlage.

The many errors and contradictions are suggesting that the final redaction was done by not very experienced scholars. But it is also possible that Muhammad by himself is resposible for a number of errors.
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Gnostic
written by fineliving56 , August 01, 2012
I am sure you have heard the saying '' where is smoke there is fire ''

Hadeeth and Sirah might NOT have been the exact action of Muhammad's to the letter … after all it was transmuted from one Muslim to another through many generation down the history latter .

with all the thousand pages of Hadeeth … there no way ...all if it was created as script of a play … there is no way … especially when it matches to life's of Pagans at that time the way of life as depicted of the Arabs …

The way I look at it … Hadeeth ACTS as the candid camera that fallowed Muhammad and gave us true but blurred picture [ ugly picture that is ] of how Muhammad lived …

Quran on the other hand, is a TOOL, Muhammad and his followers CREATED, memorized by Muslims followers and then written, later … all done to FOOL the useful ignorant masses who believed and obeyed .


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written by Reed Wilson. , August 01, 2012
My reply for the above post is detained for review and will appear.
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Re: fineliving
written by Gnostic , August 01, 2012
The authenticity of Sunna consisting of Hadith and Biography etc. is of course disputed. However, many of them sre more likely to be fake while others might have some substance. Imagine the thousands of Hadith - there must have been many every day of Muhammads Life! I think they were written in order to create islamic laws and to comment and explain the quran.

For example, the marriage with Aisha - perhaps this was written in order to legalise pedophily. Others were probably written in order to legalise the rape of women and so on. It is even likely that this happened in real but at the same time it could be both fiction AND real.

Concerning quran I agree with you. Of course it was all fake in order to fool the people and this is still the use of it. But this is not the language of unbiased research. See, would you expect a "History of the Republican Party" written by Bob Dole to be completely unbiased? Of course not.

Now in case of the quran we can do many things such as looking into the sources. Many texts are very closely related to bible, apokrypha and gnostic scriptures. Many of them very probably well known by many Arabs because they were circulating before. The texts from the Old Testament (Amran, Noah, Joseph), The Seven Sleepers. The Alexander Romance, The infantile Gospel of Thomas and many others were well known hundreds of years BEFORE Muhammad possibly even in arabic. All these texts were collected, compiled and redacted but they are NOT the result of a vision or any kind of prophesy.
Quite interesting is the fact that there are many historical errors or "biblical" errors. Coins were not in use during Josephs supposed lifetime and in some places names are not used correctly.

For example, Maria as sister of Aron, Haman, Samarians and other names are used mistakenly in the quran. Maybe Uthmans redactors did not know what they were writing about ...
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Addendum
written by Gnostic , August 01, 2012
Very interesting is also that the quran writes that Jesus indeed performed many miracles but only with the permission of Allah.

For example, the story of the young Jesus creating a bird from mud. This is not even in the bible but was written in order to express that Jesus is much like god. But why is it in the quran while it does not really support the islamic view that Jesus was only a human?
Why? Because the miracle stories were known very well and accepted everywhere as truth. Muhammad and his followers had to take care of it but it also reveals that they did not really understand christian christology. The quran even accepts that Jesus was the "word" (Logos!) which de facto means that he is god.

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Reed Wilson states
written by Yibel , August 01, 2012
It is not copying when writer of all scripts is same. Let me recite for you 41:43
"Nothing is said to you which had not been said to other apostles before you. Surely your Lord is the lord of forgiveness, but also the lord of severe retribution."

The Lords referred to in Chapter 41 (Fusilat/Revelations) are: Al Ghafur, The Much-Forgiving and in 41:42 "It is a mighty scripture. Falsehood cannot reach it from before or from behind. It is a revelation from the wise and glorious god, Al-Hamid."

Here's what these two "lovely" gawds have to say about non-Muslims:
Woe unto the idolaters who disbelieve in the Hereafter. 6
Allah will make life miserable for those who deny his revelations and then he will torment them forever in the Hereafter. And they will not be helped. 15-16
The enemies of Allah will be gathered into the Fire where their skin, ears, and eyes will testify against them. 19-20
Allah will make those who disbelieve taste an awful doom. Their immortal home will be the Fire, since they denied Allah’s revelations. 27-28
Those who disbelieve will taste hard punishment. 50

“A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand” 41:3 “By the declining star, your compatriot (Muhammad) is not in error, nor is he deceived. He does not speak out of his own fancy. This is an inspired revelation. He is taught by one (Jibril) who is powerful and mighty.” Qur'an 53:1-6 ROTFLOL
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Abrogating & Abrogated
written by Nazrul I Khan , August 01, 2012
Can anyone help me with the method by which abrogating can be distinguished from the abrogated?

Why is quran's suras arranged from largest to smallest instead of the method of abrogated and abrogating, so we could discern which Allah instructed us previously but replaced them later?
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Reed: I know Aisha is a female
written by Islam-Watch Pastor , August 01, 2012
It was a typographical error, I shouldn't have taken Aisha for an "he" I am sorry for that.

"What about your book on our deliberations? I hope you will include Mr. duh-swami's observation of Aug, 2012. I am waiting for the book. Must be interesting!"

I gave my email but you did not write to me that you are interested. Which of the books do you want the GREAT DEBATE OR 300 REASONS WHY WE REJECT THE QURAN?

Which comment of Du-Swami did you refer to? I don't know which name Du-Swami uses as his username. I am still missing Du_Swami. Please tell me his new name if you know it.Is he the Gnostic?
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Re: Abrogation
written by Gnostic , August 01, 2012

Here is a verse that says all about abrogation:

see you later abrogator, for a while you fix the file,

...
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Whereabouts of duh-swami.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 01, 2012
Dear Clement Pastor-in-Chief. You write "Reed: I know Aisha is a female". How are you so sure that she is she?

You ask"Which comment of duh-swami did you refer to?

Clement the comment appeared on Mr. A. Khans illustrious article 'On the Question of God and Punishments in Afterlife' Wednesday, 10 August 2011. The article attracted not less than 285 comments. Your participation there is significant.

There is very interesting debate between you and Mr. Khan. Duh and Cerebrum also contributed.

I copy here duh-swami's comment which I referred:

Reed influences
written by Duh Swami , August 13, 2011
Reed has shown some extremely good points here. I have to agree with his point of view and it could be that I have not judged him correctly. I think we would all be better served if we gave Islam a second look from a positive perspective. Thank you Reed".

I hope you remember now.

There is no reason why duh-swami will change his name. He was very outstanding contributer on IW. I learn that duh-swami and ABC locked horns. I was not here. I could play a role. Since then he is not showing up.

Gnostic is different with his own style.

PS. I visited the address you gave. It is a website. You better place your 'Great Debate' as an article on this site. All of us will share.





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Abrogation
written by Nazrul I Khan , August 01, 2012
Gnostic

I dont see the verse!!! any stupid goat may have eaten it!!!
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The verse is there!
written by Gnostic , August 01, 2012

Yes, it is! But it is covered by a clot-blot!
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Reed,
written by Islam-Watch Pastor , August 02, 2012
Many thanks for the information. Please tell me how I can get my book the great debate placed on this site. I placed my email address as ' This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it it is not a website. send my a mail and I will forword the book to you. I will study the debate refered to and see how it could come in if I had not included it already.

The great debate only collated debate on about 3 articles I am not sure if that article was included I will check and confirm.

Cheers
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Abrogating and abrogated.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 02, 2012
Nazrul I Khan. Your post above. I submit here what report I have.

Nasikh wal Mansookh or Abrogation in Quran.
The concept Nasikh wal Mansookh or abrogation in Quran was originally invented during the fourth century A.H (late 10th century A.D). Among them are notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq famous as Al-Denary (died 318 A.H), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.
The verse that abrogates they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh).

Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim 'scholars', yet it has been widely misconceived by 'scholars' belong to Christianity and Judaism.

There are verses in Quran which tell us that Quran has no abrogation/contradictions. Therefore there is no point to accept that. No book contains abrogated texts.


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@'NAZRUL I KHAN
written by balam , August 02, 2012
I am not a Scholar of Islam but I think that In MECCA when Mohammad was just a NOVICE,he made up short Suras.When he moved to MADINA,he gained more power and self confidence.He learnt a lot from the Jews and he often visited a Roman Christian who was a black smith who told him christian stories.In Sura 17,the Arabs told him that he was fake and they had heard all those stories before.Hence the Quran is not arranged properly in sequence.If you put the biggest part of your body in the beginning on top,then imagine how you will look like.Like NYLON,Islam is man made FIBRE.
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 02, 2012
balam. Every sura of Quran is an independent chapter or a book. Quran is inflorescence of all 114 books.

It is not my opinion. The book itself says that. You can read them in any order. You dont need a prerequisite for reading any sura.

You write "I am not a Scholar of Islam but I think that In MECCA when Mohammad was just a NOVICE,he made up short Suras.....".

Do you have any source for that information?



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@REED WILSON
written by balam , August 02, 2012
What ever way you dress a prostitute,It can never change its character.Look at the teaching of Quran.It is a text book of hate and prejudice.The word 'LOVE' does not exist in that book.Only SEX and SAVAGERY.Then coming to the LIFE OF YOUR PERFECT ROLE MODEL,prove ANY SIN NOT COMMITTED BY MOHAMMAD.THIS CHALLENGE IS OPEN TO 1.5 BILLION MUSLIMS.ALSO TRY TO PROVE ANY SIN COMMITTED BY JESUS- THE CHRIST.
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@REED WILSON
written by balam , August 02, 2012
As a Muslim,I am sure you know that Meccan Suras are short and appear last and Madinan Suras appear in the beginning.Most of them are mixed up with a lot of repetition.The verses are so incoherent and you need Tafseer or Hdiths to understand quran.Allah seems to be very ambigous like a mental case.I have come across some psychiatric patients who were also incoherent in their utterances.Read the HOLY BIBLE from the book of GENESIS onward.You will have to admit that it is not confusing like quran because it is the inerrant word of GOD.
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Balam
written by Abc , August 02, 2012
GTFO of here!
Written by moe and joe from around the way!
Gods word!!! Phhhhft!
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Chile Molester
written by Proud Infiedl , August 03, 2012
I can't say for sure whether Mohammad was illiterate or not, but it's an undisputable fact that he was a child molester and that Muslims hold a child molester in high regard.
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written by reyol , August 03, 2012
Literate or not, I understand that the kufic script wasn't invented for several centuries after Muhammad. What writing system was in use in 6th Century Arabia?
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Reyol
written by fineliving56 , August 03, 2012
I think there is misconception about the pre Islamic arabic language being very different from Arabic language now … that is wrong .

Any Arab student who had a high school education, studied and memorize famous pre Islamic Arabic poetry …

for example … one of the Al Muallaqa for Antar bin Shad'dad … he left most famous poetry for arabic language that is not that difficult to understand at all … and that was 1500 years ago .. about 100 hundred years before Islam … that same language was used to write Quran …

The only difference is the dots that distinguish letter in the Arabic of now … like … N … F …T … and other letters English does not have .

The Arabic language was called the Quraysh Arabic… and Tameem Arabic
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
balam. " As a Muslim,I am sure you know that Meccan Suras are short and appear last and Madinan Suras appear in the beginning."

I am sorry to disappoint you. I really dont know. Author did not feel the necessity to tell his readers that such and such sura he revealed on such and such venue and time. It is considered irrelevant.

"The verses are so incoherent and you need Tafseer or Hdiths to understand quran."

From where the 'tafseerer' gets the inspiration to put sense there? Can you give examples?

"Read the HOLY BIBLE from the book of GENESIS onward.You will have to admit that it is not confusing like quran because it is the inerrant word of GOD."

Why do you want to stir up a hornet's nest? Conservative Christians generally believe that God inspired the authors and redactors of the Bible. Hence, they wrote material that was error-free. Some advocates of biblical inerrancy take the position that the authoritative Word of God has been preserved and passed down through time. Other advocates of biblical in errancy take the position that although none of the original manuscripts currently exist, scholars are able to produce a product that is as near as possible to the original and that it can confidently be said to be the authoritative Word of God. They base their conclusions on scholars' comparison of the many thousands of good copies that have been found (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls), and by examining the thousands of citations of Scripture in the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Was Bible word of God is still debated by church itself. Word Bible is not found in Bible itself. Quran says:

وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الْإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

And I sent Jesus, the son of Mary, after those Prophets, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and which confirms the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and a guidance and admonition for the God-fearing. Let the followers of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein, and those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are the transgressors.

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written by Reed Wilson. , August 03, 2012
balem. If you are Christian, you are OK. Follow what you have.
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written by vbv , August 03, 2012
There is no "God" . What better proof do you want when you read all those books that claim to be the word of "God" ? These books relate to particular times and moments in the human history. They are pettyfogging, insular, partisan and not universal. They all relate to particular tribe or people that the writer of these socalled holybooks had some knowledge/ information/ rumour. They are oblivious to the rest of humanity like India, China, Japan, Southeast Asia, Siberia, Russia, Mongolia, Scandinavia, the American continents,Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific-ocean's islands,etc. Infact the geography of this planet Earth is practically nonexistant , as also the majority of human population that resided in all those countries/continents , not to speak of the British Isles, Iceland, Greenland,etc. The concept of god is itself a big falsehood, hence the word of this socalled god is just a concoction of scheming scoundrels/deluded idiots/criminals/scamsters and the like.
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written by vbv , August 03, 2012
This "god" must be an idiot or its creator ,the concocter of all these bullshit tales of Adam and Eve, Noah and his Ark,etc is making an absolute fool of the gullible masses. This god is the mirror image of its despotic creator : violent, intolerant, narcissistic,vengeful, stupid, irrational and the like. All this is the worst joke on humanity , a very cruel joke that is like a festering wound which will never heal - especially when there are so many gullible idiots around to stand up for this biggest fraud and scam on humanity . Some spook this god is, ( though just a nonexisting entity) that it has so many people who will murder, massacre and even die to uphold this sham of the worst lie called god and religion. So much for this socalled word of god! Absolute Bullshit!
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 04, 2012
Balam. You accuse "Only SEX and SAVAGERY."

What is Arabic of Sex and of Savagery and how many times the words appear in Quran?

What is bad in sex?
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This has been said before
written by Yibel , August 05, 2012
but I guess it bears repeating since some of you Muslims still don't get it!

The word "Bible is not found in Bible itself" because the word "Bible" means "books." The Holy Bible consists of 66 individual books - most of which were originally scrolls. The word "bible" comes from the name Byblos, a town in present day Lebanon where books were printed, circa 500CE. All the books in the Holy Bible were written long before this date, so naturally the word "bible" does not appear anywhere in the text.

The Torah is only the first 5 books of the Bible. These 5 books are about creation stuff/myths, early history of the Hebrew people, and laws and legal issues of the early state of Israel. That's all!

The word "Gospel" is Old English and means "Good News." Yah'shua/Jesus IS the GOOD NEWS/GOSPEL. The New Testament Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are ABOUT the Good News (aka Gospel), that is - Yah'shua - his teachings and his ministry. He came, he delivered the word of YHVH - the real G-d - and he died - for ours sins so we could be sons of YHVH and have eternal life in heaven - like the angels. HE - Yah'shua - is the Gospel!!!

Muhammad/Allah was an IGNORAMOUS! He literally did not know his donkey from a horse's patoot!
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written by Reed Wilson. , August 06, 2012
Yibel. You said "The word "Bible is not found in Bible itself" because the word "Bible" means "books." ..... Bible were written long before this date, so naturally the word "bible" does not appear anywhere in the text."

Fair enough. Who gave the name Bible to this bound book?

You write "The Torah is only the first 5 books of the Bible. These 5 books are about creation stuff/myths, early history of the Hebrew people, and laws and legal issues of the early state of Israel."

Is it the same Torah about which Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled?
Do our brother Jews consider it as Torah? Who gave name Torah to these 5 articles?

You write "The word "Gospel" is Old English and means "Good News."

We find four Gospels in the NT or the Gospel. Jesus said

Mk:10:29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Sometimes it is mentioned Gospel of Kingdom. Which of the four Gospels is the one Jesus referred several times in Gospels? Which one is the real Gospel?

I asked this to Clement. I really need knowing that. Thanks.


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To Reed Wilson, part 1
written by Yibel , August 06, 2012
Each of the four Gospels are titled: "The Gospel (Good News) According to ...
Each is about the life/ministry, his teachings, miracles, etc. according to either personal knowledge, as in the case of Matthew and John, or information from persons who were close to Yah'shua as in the case of Mark and the book ascribed to Luke, a companion of Paul.

Old English god-spell had a long vowel and would have become good-spell in modern English - meaning "good news" or "glad tidings". It is a calque (word-for-word translation) of the Greek word euangelion (eu-"good" angelion-"message"). The Greek word euangelion is also the source (via Latinised evangelium) of the terms "evangelist" and "evangelism" in English. The authors of the four canonical Christian gospels are also known as the four evangelists.

These New Testament books were put together by Irenaeus of Lyons, c. 185CE based on Ezekiel 1, or Revelation 4:6–10, of God's throne borne by four creatures with four faces—"the four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and the four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle"—equivalent to the "four-formed" gospel, is the origin of the conventional symbols of the Evangelists: lion, bull, eagle, man.
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To Reed Wilson, part 2
written by Yibel , August 06, 2012
The Law is more than what is in the Torah (which is what the Jews call the first five books/scrolls of the HOLY Bible). The Law is also the words of YHVH as spoken through his prophets: "For man does not live by bread alone (meaning the Torah which is called the Bread of Life by the Jews), but by every word that flows from the mouth of YHVH (meaning the prophets - the Tahakh - and the Testament of Yah'shua as recorded in the Gospels)"

Isaiah 39:8...Good is the word... Isaiah 40:5 ...for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. Therefore, out of the mouth of YHVH, is the good news, glad tidings, or what is also known as, the gospel.

I hope the above helps with your understanding of scriptures. If you have any more - or further - questions please feel free to ask. I'll answer if I can. BTW, you asked about Christian sects. There are none, only various denominations. Not sure what RC is - guessing Roman Catholic. If so, then no, I am not RC.
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To Nazrul I Khan
written by Yibel , August 07, 2012
The Qur'an itself contains the abrogated texts. These are mostly in the earlier Makkah revelations. When the Quran was finally collated into book form under Caliph Uthman, the surahs were arranged from longest to shortest with no connection to the order in which they were revealed or to their themes/content.

In order to find out what the Quran says on a given topic, it is necessary to examine the other Islamic sources (aHadith, sunnah, biographies of Muhammad)that give clues as to when in Muhammad’s lifetime the revelations occurred. Verses revealed in Madinah “abrogate” i.e., cancel and replace the earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation in 2:106: "Whatever a verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?"

Surah 2 was the 87th revelation and the first to be revealed in Madinah. Following surahs are from Madinah in chronological order: 87, 8, 3, 33, 60, 4, 99, 57, 47, 13, 55, 76, 65, 98, 59, 24, 22, 63, 58, 49, 66, 64, 61, 62, 48, 5, 9, 110.
(Note: This arrangement is accepted by most Islamic scholars.)

The earlier Makkan surahs came at a time when Muhammad was vulnerable, and they are are generally benign. At this time he was trying to unite all the Arab clans under one banner - HIS - by convincing them (verbally) that all the gods were really just different names for one supreme god - the Stone of the Ka'aba.

After taking over the Jewish city of Yathrib - which he renamed Madinah - he began to raid caravans and fight wars with neighboring towns for booty. His army grew so his Madinah surahs reflect this military role and he began convincing new recruits by means of the sword (beheading).
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 07, 2012
Yibel. I am sorry I could not get much from the explanation for which I am indebted to you. Most of it depends on trusting extra biblical sources like "These New Testament books were put together by Irenaeus of Lyons, c. 185CE".

I requested to know which one is the Gospel referred as:

"Mk:10:29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's.

I am sure none of the four is one that Jesus mentioned and is mentioned at about 90 places in New Testament which is also called Gospel.

I wish if duh-swami was around and act as moderator with his insight in Bible.

"Not sure what RC is - guessing Roman Catholic. If so, then no, I am not RC."

Yes I mean Roman Catholic. I was one. I would lift the skirt of Virgin Mary kiss it rub my eyes with it and pray for blessings for the house, family and visitors.

Virgin Mary used to come herself to our house on her own wheels. If she stayed about a week at my lodgings we would pay good sum to the church. I was Iglisia ni Cristo before swapping to Islam.

I know there are more than 2000 denominations of Christians. If you could tell your denominator and its salient features?
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To Reed Wilson
written by Yibel , August 07, 2012
So, basically, you swapped one cult - with very weird practices - for another -with very weird practices. Before you worshiped a dead person called Virgin Mary and now you bow and pray to a blackish rock at the Ka'aba in Makkah. You must like doing rituals and believing in garbage.

I am assuming that this skirt you lifted was on a statue - since the RC have those in their buildings (basilicas/churches). What do you mean - she (or it) "used to come to your house on her (its) own wheels? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. This is not Christianity!!!

I will research Iglisia ni Cristo, as I am unfamiliar with this religion.

As for the gospel that Yah'shua/Jesus was referring to - it is the quote from the Old Testament Book of Isaiah that I included in my post: Isaiah 39:8...Good is the word... Isaiah 40:5 ...for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. Therefore, out of the mouth of YHVH, is the good news, glad tidings, or what is also known as, the gospel.

Yah'shua was saying that he was the good news (gospel) spoken of by the prophets - he was the word of YHVH made flesh, the promised Messiah.

Christianity is not a religion - it is a personal relationship with YHVH, so there is no need to belong to any denomination to be a Christian.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 09, 2012
Yibel. You write "Before you worshiped a dead person called Virgin Mary and now you bow and pray to a blackish rock at the Ka'aba in Makkah".

I differ with your analysis about me. I worshiped neither. Worshiping is obeying. The practice of RCs I disliked and divorced.

Do you know about Moriones Festival in Easter? Do you observe Easter?

I dont know if Muslims worship black stone and Kaaba. No sanctity is attached to both in Quran. Black stone is not even mentioned there.

"I am assuming that this skirt you lifted was on a statue". Yes statues of Jesus and Mary are rife. I am not sure if it is called statue. It was life size doll with small wheels as we have on tea trolleys.

I am sorry I could not comprehend last 3 paragraphs of your above post and missed our illustrious duh-swami who was so good at moderating. I wish he shows up in following comment.

Thank you.

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