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Great Anwar Shaikh Unplugged -- On Hindu Ancestry, Islam, Jihad

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My ancestor's genes just woke up....

Comments (81)Add Comment
Great hearing my idol...
written by Indian apostate , January 25, 2013
This is the first time, I hear him speaking. A person of clear mind.

He has been my idol -- and the true initiator of modern apostasy and Islam-critiquing movement...
goood video
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROOON , January 25, 2013

good video.

written by youcancallmeV , January 25, 2013
Hmmmm, not bad....
sort of raises lots of questions regarding General Muhammad Zia ul Haq, and his moves towards Islamizatition of Pakistan.
You can see how Wahhabist fascism replaced Jinnah's vision of a secular Pakistan.
written by abc , January 25, 2013
There is no fool like an old fool. Ibn warraqs spiritual daddy!
written by Rationalist , January 25, 2013
Your ancestors were terrorized to accept Islam. Time for u to trace ur ancestry n give up Pedo Mo's cult...good luck
written by youcancallmeV , January 25, 2013
Oh abc, you're letting your petty little insecurities run away with you again.
What's so bad about Ibn Warraq?

written by Reader , January 25, 2013
This video is too good. Hope Muslims as well as Hindus will learn from here.
Problem with Hindus
written by Reader , January 25, 2013
Hindus, being in a better economic and social position, will not take the trouble to protect what is rightfully theirs. The act of forgiveness and secularism is a hog wash. Muslims are taking advantage of that. But what is inspiring is that there is a growing resistance, whatever small it may be and I hope one day it will grow bigger than Islam and will circumcise Islam and fundamentalists.
written by vbv , January 25, 2013
Muslims of the entire Indian subcontinent were all of hindu origin. Their ancestors were coerced into accepting this barbaric arab cult by invaders from Arabia, Iran, central Asia etc, who all came to plunder the fabulous wealth that India was known for since the earliest historical times. These barbaric hordes came with missionery zeal to convert ,enslave a peaceful and prosperous people . The muslims foolishly think they have arab ancestry ( ofcourse , if they are products of rapes and fornications they can jolly well claim such bedouin ancestry),while they can be seen very clearly that they are ethnically indians ,genetically indians/south asians. These idiots do not realise this very simple and basic fact and are contented to be arab slaves and be subservient to these arab barabarians.That is why pakistan was born out of deep hatred for their hindu ancestry and their fellow hindu citizens during the pre-partitioned India. They have not got out of this hateful bigotry as yet.
written by abc , January 25, 2013
Insecurity? I'm the one who comes to your little den.
Projection me thinks!

I stated a fact not a question!
It is Inspiring …
written by fine , January 25, 2013
To listen to a great mind talking about wakening up one day and say '' I am a Hindu '' and to see him say it in wonderment .. his eyes said it all .. his pause said all … he could not explain his feelings adequately because words are not sufficient enough to describe it .

he said '' he does not know how it happened '' it was sudden …

It must have been like, a thick layer of fog was settled over eyes for life and one day, it clears up and warm sunshine seeps through, and you can't help but smile … and your heart leaps in reaction … and you say to your self ….. '' can I '' ? … dare I ? '' ….

Relief … sadness … sweetness … happiness, even anger at self and all who were fooled alone with you … all conflicted feelings …

all bundle it self up in you and it rushes out, and you cant help but talk about it …and talk ..and talk … I Have a feeling I wont be able to stop talking about it …
Sri ANWAR SHAIH - an eye opener for all PAKI Moslems and HINDUS of the world
written by kafir-infidel , January 26, 2013
This is an amazing video - actually it brought out new science into open . It is a known fact that genes jump and realign. His explanation of his enlightenment is a remarkable science !!!
This also brings another strength to the science of spirituality of sanatana dharma . All of you may be knowing that there is lot of evidence for the theory of reincarnation , one of the proposition of sanatana dharma ( By Lord krishna in BHAGAVADGITA) ( You watch a video by ABC tv news channel reincarnation ).
I hope all PAKI good moslems and INDIAN moslems watch this video and renounce , denounce ISLAM , after their gaining knowledge, truth and enlightenment . For this to happen each moslem must resolve and decide that he/she would like to live as good human beings with all kindness, compassion,peace, love and equality as noble human beings , just like HINDUS . When they resolve this way with good conscience , they will leave ISLAM and declare themselves as good human beings and live happily and peacefully.
written by abc , January 26, 2013
From a confused old man far from an Islamic scholar, because he can see. . He gave up his work for trips to the library.
"I went to sleep Muslim and woke up Hindu"
Really anwar. You had a Damascus moment like Saul.
"cremate because my forefathers were cremated"
Great reasoning anwar, glad you thought about it.
It was comedy gold!!
Pathetic ramblings of a Muslim aka takiya defence aka crime and call it religious, abc kind
written by Infidel and MP , January 26, 2013
Musli upbringing teaches him that women is worth a lolipop
Makes moh , abc , Kopi and Malman proud
Hides his shaved arsz and pubes behind Islam
STFU infidull
written by abc , January 26, 2013
Whah whah whah! Got anything relavent to say?
to abc aka dont shoot the messanger
written by Infidel and MP , January 26, 2013
abc why shoot the messanger aka me. The guy admits that the crime is result of his religion and you have his face in front of you along with his where-abouts. So better settle the score with him not me.
written by abc , January 26, 2013
The stupid are everywhere! Take your own example for instance
To all Bible and Tora experts in IW
written by fine , January 26, 2013
I need your help ..

A Muslims I know claims that a new miracle was discovered in an aya

it is about the word '' Haman '' he is supposed to be a companion of Pharaoh who according to the Muslims have never been mentioned before except in Quran and that is supposed to be a miracle …

Please, do you know if the bible and Torah have talked about '' Haman ''

All my distant Muslims family relatives post the good quotes from Quran … and I do not say anything about all the Bad parts, because some of them are Islamic zealots .. I ignore their posts.

But this one I want to know about … and I will post the result in my facebook … no mater what is the out come is from your research ..

I know there is an exculpation … I hope you will find it

Here it is :

وَقَالَ فِرۡعَوۡنُ يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلۡمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمۡتُ لَڪُم مِّنۡ إِلَـٰهٍ غَيۡرِى فَأَوۡقِدۡ لِى{{{{ يَـٰهَـٰمَـٰنُ }}}} عَلَى ٱلطِّينِ فَٱجۡعَل لِّى صَرۡحً۬ا لَّعَلِّىٓ أَطَّلِعُ إِلَىٰٓ إِلَـٰهِ مُوسَىٰ وَإِنِّى لَأَظُنُّهُ ۥ مِنَ ٱلۡكَـٰذِبِينَ (٣٨

.(37) And Pharaoh said: O chiefs! I know not that ye have a god other than me, so kindle for me (a fire), O {{{Haman }}}} to bake the mud; and set up for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey the God of Moses; and lo! I deem him of the liars. (38)

Thanks in advance
written by fine , January 26, 2013
My posts are being eaten today ?

Any way it could be posted …please ?
written by fine , January 26, 2013
I have a request from the Bible and Tora experts in IW … to help me find about a word in Quran in 28/38 … that was mentioned in the story of Pharaoh.

My first post was snatched talking about this issue … it will be posted soon

here is the Islamic website talking about the supposed miracles of that aya in Quran :

Re: above
written by Gnostic , January 26, 2013
The article of the llink above is full of mistakes and errors.

At first, Haman was, according to the jewish bible, a high ranked officer of the persian king and had nothing to do with Egypt.

Secondly, the name which was found in Egypt was Hmn h which probably means Hemen-hetep and not Haman. Hemen, by the way, was a name of a god.

Thirdly, this was all clarified by recognised scholars of egyptology. In contrast, the islamic view was raised by Bucaille, who is well known for detecting ridiculous "miracles" everywhere in the quran.

At last I would like to mention that all the stories in the quran about Egypt are lacking any historicity because there are no facts at all and many things are even contradicting history.

In the story of Joseph, for example, dirhams of silver are mentioned, while there were no coins in use at this time and of course no dirhams, the arab word for drachmas from greek.

Even the use of the title Pharao in the quran is wrong. Pharao is a title like king and not a name. And this was also not in use during the time of Joseph.
abc choose one or more of the following for yourself
written by Infidel and MP , January 26, 2013
Moron,imbecile, jerk,cretin, dipstik,wanker, arszhole,dim-witt, thick,blockhead, twit,dolt, jackarsz,nitwit, numskull,returd ignoramus,dullard and the one you cant get away from porkimusli
re: above Part II
written by Gnostic , January 26, 2013

According to the link above, there are more mistakes in the islamic view:

The "H" in the quranic Haman is different from the "H" found in the egyptian inscripture.

Moreover, Hemen Hetep was perhaps a higher ranked quarry worker but absolutely not qualified to build a monumental tower. He did also not belong to the close circle of the Pharaoh to receive orders directly from him.

written by Worldpeace , January 26, 2013
I salute the great man with even greater mind. You are a good moral icon for us apostate, no for us good humans who were hoodwinked but found the truth later in thier lives. I also salute you fineliving with your erudition on a continuous basis.
Salute to Mr. MA Khan and his colleagues
written by Ganesh , January 26, 2013
Salute to Mr. MA Khan and his colleagues for carrying out this wonderful and daring work for the cause of humanity.......
Truth spoken (abc)
written by Kaser , January 26, 2013
Nice to see a man that has a lot of life experience calmly state what everybody knows about Islam, it's hatred for anything non-Islamic.

abc, it must be difficult for you to defend Islam when there is such an overwhelming amount of proof against it. So many humans having (and still) suffer from it.
And, to top it off, the most retarded country on earth, Saudi Arabia, PROUDLY using Islam for everything, from treating women like sentient cattle to killing witches and banning other religions...

How do you do it abc, really, how do you do it????
written by fine , January 26, 2013
Thank you for responding

I still do not get why Muslims, think the mentioning of '' Hemen '' or Haman '' in the Quran concludes, as a " miracle '' ..

the article DOES say that, THAT name was mentioned in the old testament as a name of Babylon man … it stands to reason that muslims at that time, had gotten hold of this information from Tora and as they have lived right beside them in the arabian desert …. and I am sure , THEY KNEW THE LANGUAGE HEBREW …

Muhammad him self married his captured Jewish woman ..Arabs at that time spoke different languages !! …all evidences point at this conclusion .

All I am saying is Muhammad and his clan knew Hebrew … He traveled all over the north and he was NOT illiterate as we proofed many times before from Islamic texts ..

Whether, the stone plates that talks about Moses and the man named '' Hemen'' , was discovered 200 hundred years or after… it does not matter ..and it does not carry any weight , because as, I said and know Muhammad lived among them, and Quran was a product of Muhammad's time .

I my right ?
Here is my son's Rami's criticism of the article that claims a Miracle in Quran, from the logical view
written by fine , January 26, 2013

'' He said: "However, the mention of Haman can be found in the last
chapters of the Old Testament as the helper of a Babylonian king who
inflicted many cruelties on the Israelites approximately 1,100 years
after the Prophet Musa (as)." In other words: Haman was a name
mentioned in the Old Testament.

He also said: "The name "Haman" was not known until the decoding of
Egyptian hieroglyphics in the 19th century." In other words: Haman was
NOT a name mentioned in the Old Testament.

Those two ideas contradict each other. They cannot both be true, yet
the author said both. Why? What is his motivation? To obfuscate? ''

BTW .. [ this is me posting ]

It looks like, Muslims are feeling the heat with all the criticism that Quran has been receiving … it even mentions in the article ... that fact about the non Muslim's on going exposing Quran's countless flows .

I say ..it is about time !!!
written by Gnostic , January 26, 2013
Yes, I remember that Haman was an adviser or even more of the baylonians but not the persians. The persians came later and released the jews.

But the contradiction is really funny and reveals much about muslims.

Fine, you said you think it is time?

I hope you are right!
The late ANWAR SHAIKH, who always told the truth about Islam!
written by Only by telling the truth ...... , January 27, 2013
His books about Islam are an eye-opener!

I read most of his books and was eager to meet him in person. This was to be arranged by a Buddhist monk, who was a common friend. But sadly, Anwar Shaikh passed away before I could travel to Cardiff to meet him.

Anwar Shaikh will continue to live through his books and other writings!
More confusion in the Quran
written by Gnostic , January 27, 2013
Quote from the islamic site mentioned above:

Pharaoh said, "Council, I do not know of any other god for you apart from Me. Haman, kindle a fire for me over the clay and build me a lofty tower so that perhaps I may be able to climb up to Musa's god! I consider him a blatant liar." (Qur'an, 28:38)

The author of the quran is probably confusing two things: Haman, who was a babylonian adviser in the original version of the bible, and the story of the babylonian tower.

Of course alll these stories are only fiction but the quranic version is even worse since it draws from the bible and rearranges it without really understanding it.

The same practice can be shown in other quotes such as referring to jesus, that he only seemed to have died at the cross; this is a gnostic theme rearranged in order to fit it into an islamic view. However, this does not work because the quran also recognises that Jesus was born by a virgin and many other miracles which clearly reveal that he was in fact more than a human (from both islamic and christian viewpoints).
Traslation of this site in regional langauges
written by Infidel and MP , January 27, 2013
The heat on islam will get worse when this site is traslated into regional languages especially asian.

Internet will kill islam sooner or later.
Islam survives on keeping the masses uneducated so they keep believing in absurd miracles and once people start thinking rationally and using brains to question will be the end of the barbaric cult.
written by youcancallmeV , January 27, 2013
This Haman geezer..
Is that the same Haman who was determined to destroy the Jews?
re: above
written by Gnostic , January 27, 2013
Yes, according to the bible Haman was the babylonian minster but in the quran, Haman is an adiviser of Pharaoh, who also gave him the order to build a tower much like the Tower of Babylon!

Still we do not know what Pharaoh this story is about because the quran, much like the bible, does not provide a name and most modern scholars think it is only fiction anyway.

Now the islamists looked at one grave with the name hmn h, probably Hemen Hetep, and claimed that this is the Haman from the quran!

But the name is not identical and even when, there might have been thousands of people with the same name like a Smith, a Simpson or a Miller!

This is ridiculous and has nothing to do with science!
Haman correction
written by Yibel , January 28, 2013
Pharaoh said, "Council, I do not know of any other god for you apart from Me. Haman, kindle a fire for me over the clay and build me a lofty tower so that perhaps I may be able to climb up to Musa's god! I consider him a blatant liar." (Qur'an, 28:38)

There are a number of things that are wrong with this aya:
First of all, the Egyptians had many gods - cat god, cow god, jackal god, crocodile god, Ah - the Lunar Calendar god, etc. - hundreds of them, and the king of Egypt would know this, so he would NOT claim to be their ONLY god. Secondly, it was the priests of these gods that the king of lower Egypt called upon to dispute with Moses and Aaron. Third, Egyptians built large buildings with stone. Mud bricks were used for building dwellings, but they were not fired. They were left in the sun to dry. Egyptians did not build towers.

Fourth, Muhammad included the name, Haman, twice in his tales about Musa (Q.28:39 and 40:24) and called him a vizier. Egyptian kings did not have viziers. Haman in the Bible was the vizier to a PERSIAN king named Ahasuerus. The story of how a Jewish woman, married to Ahasuerus, saved the Jewish people living in Persia from total annihilation by Haman has been celebrated yearly (Feast of Purim) by Jews for 2500 years. (Story recorded in the OT, Book of Esther)

There are no miracles in the Qur'an. Muhammad got his Jewish stories confused. It's a good thing that chewing gum wasn't around in Muhammad's day, 'cause he wasn't bright enough to walk and chew gum at the same time.
re: Yibel
written by Gnostic , January 28, 2013
Great! I know there is another "miracle" in the quran with archaeological "evidence".


Much like the Haman-stories the muslims try desperately to defend the quran by turning obvious contradictions into "miracles".

However, there is absolutely no connection between the mummie and the pharaoh mentioned in the quran. There were thousands of mummies which had been discovered.
another example
written by Gnostic , January 28, 2013
Here is another movie about "scientific miracles"


There is a japanese scientist mentioned: Yushidi Kusan

from "Tokyo Observators". But there is no "Tokyo Observatory!

And the name Yushidi Kusan does not exist in japanese.
Haman correction indeed
written by abc , January 28, 2013
Who in their right mind uses the bible as a source of reference to judge other books. Especially the book of Esther?
Does the Book of Esther and the characters present in it have any historicity? Whatever side of the debate one finds himself or herself on, it is a fundamentally important question, an issue which has not been tackled by those claimants whose implicit assumptions rule out the possibility that the biblical story of Esther contains historical errors, even though such a position leads to a circular argument. That Jewish and Christian scholars have denied the historicity of the Book of Esther is something of an understatement. It would appear the people who subscribe to the full historicity of the Book of Esther are those whose dogmatic approach to historical and theological exegesis precludes the possibility of any historical problems arising from the biblical narrative. Believing ones holy book to be infallible is of course a mainstream belief found in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. But what happens when such beliefs do not square with commonly accepted ‘historical facts’? While discussing the historical problems of the Book of Esther, Professor Jon Levenson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies at the Harvard Divinity School, says:

Even if we make this questionable adjustment, the historical problems with Esther are so massive as to persuade anyone who is not already obligated by religious dogma to believe in the historicity of the biblical narrative to doubt the veracity of the narrative.[25]

Naturally this statement does not sit comfortably with those who have used the Book of Esther to substantiate the historical “contradiction” in the Qur’anic account of Haman. Many scholars have dealt with the problems regarding the historicity of the Book of Esther. Michael Fox, Professor of Hebrew at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who also specialises in Egyptian literature and its relationship with biblical literature, has detailed the arguments for and against the book’s historicity.[26] Fox mentions numerous inaccuracies, implausibilities and outright impossibilities in this biblical book. After considering the arguments in detail, Fox concludes with the following negative assessment:

Various legendary qualities as well as several inaccuracies and implausibilities immediately throw doubt on the book's historicity and give the impression of a writer recalling vaguely remembered past.[27]
haman correction 2
written by abc , January 28, 2013
The majority of scholars, however, regard the book as a romance reflecting the customs of later times and given an ancient setting to avoid giving offence. They point out that the 127 provinces mentioned are in strange contrast to the historical twenty Persian Satrapies; that it is astonishing that while Mordecai is known to be a Jew, his ward and cousin, Esther, can conceal the fact that she is a Jewess - that the known queen of Xerxes, Amestris, can be identified with neither Vashti nor Esther; that it would have been impossible for a non-Persian person to be appointed prime minister or for a queen to be selected except from the seven highest noble families; that Mordecai's ready access to the palaces is not in consonance with the strictness with which the Persian harems were guarded; that the laws of Medes and Persians were never irrevocable; and that the state of affairs in the book, amounting practically in civil war, could not have passed unnoticed by historians if this had actually occurred. The very tone of the book itself, its literary craftsmanship and the aptness of its situations, point rather to a romantic story than a historical chronicle.

Some scholars even trace it to a non-Jewish origin entirely; it is, in their opinion, either a reworking of a triumph of the Babylonian gods Marduk (Mordecai) and Ishtar (Esther) over the Elamite gods Humman (Haman) and Mashti (Vashti), or of the suppression of the Magians by Darius I, or even the resistance of the Babylonians to the decree of Artaxerxes II. According to this view, Purim is a Babylonian feast which was taken over by the Jews, and the story of which was given a Jewish colouring.[31]

Published about one hundred years ago, The Jewish Encyclopaedia already asserted that,

Comparatively few modern scholars of note consider the narrative of Esther to rest on a historical foundation... The vast majority of modern expositors have reached the conclusion that the book is a piece of pure fiction, although some writers qualify their criticism by an attempt to treat it as a historical romance.
Abc said :
written by fine , January 28, 2013
'' Who in their right mind uses the bible as a source of reference to judge other books.''

I will say to that : Quran … Hellooo …Quran is the one book which endorsed the injeel '' bible , relied on it for references, bragged that the bible talked about Quran as the last book from Allah …

Hahaha ..you Abc lost me, at the first sentience in your long posts … as soon as I read this I actually laughed for a while … many Ayas from Quran came to mind to contradict what you said … hahaha

Here is two, If you want I will bring all the ones talks about it … there more then 20 ayas praising the bible and torah .

It is really embarrassing to see a Muslims so lost of what Quran likes or do not like .. Your hate for Christians and Jews blinded you ..it pushes you to make fun of their books, yet you praise Quran .. how could that be, if you know Quran, endorsed the bible and Toraht :

Sura 26 - Al-Shuara (MAKKA) : Verse 196

And verily, it (the Qur'ân, and its revelation to Prophet Muhammad SAW) is (announced) in the Scriptures [i.e. the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] of former people.
Translation : Eng-Dr. Mohsin

Sura 12 - Yusuf (MAKKA) : Verse 111
Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Quran) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of Allâhs existing Books which were before it [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.

BTW … and this is important to point out ..

The bible never claimed, that every word by word of the bible was Jesus's words that came from God .. . it was inspired by Jesus's words …the people who wrote it used their own words , on the other hand, Quran and Muhammad CLAIMED,Quran is Allah's words … word by word … that was really stupid .. Muhammad cornered him self that way …and did not leave any wiggle room to correct and take away bad Ayas … after all ..the language mistakes .. the contradictions ..the science mistakes … the discriminations of all kinds .. etc..

To me … all religious books were man made … Allah/God never communicated with anyone .. Muhammad and all people who say God did, are l y ing to us and to themselves … the proof is QURAN IT SELF .
re: abc
written by Gnostic , January 28, 2013
We are not discussing the historicity of the bible here but yes, there are historical errors.

However, considering the quran I would say that there are not only errors but that there is no historicity at all.

There is no name of the Pharao mentioned, no place and no time. There are greek drachmas (dirhams) mentioned which definetely did not exist because no coins existed by that time.

Pharao speaks about punishments such as cruxification and chopping of hands and feet on opposite sides which is also in use by muslim (Muhammad and Allah).

And while you are critisising the bible you should not forget to mention that the quran drew many stories from the bible, more or less, while many others were badly distorted.
written by abc , January 29, 2013
You really are lost!
There is very little contribution from Jesus son of Mary in the modern bible! King James version.
The injeel the Quran speaks of is pre Paul!
Remember the words of al Fatiha " those who went astray"
The writers of the bible fall in that category!

Still laughing? Thought not!
re: above
written by Gnostic , January 29, 2013
You are wrong. The virgin birth is something which was introduced much later by hellenistic chrisitans, probabaly even much later than Paul The same with all the miracle stories and the story with the young Jesus creating birds from clay is even later than the bible.

BTW, the virgin birth, Jesus performing miracles and creating birds - all these stories were written with the intention that Jesus is the son of god or god himself, inbelievable for Jews.

That Jesus is the word - logos - means nothing else that he is regarded as god. While everybody can believe what he wants the quran is contradictious by its own words. You cannot say that Jesus was only a human and then say that he was the logos .

Muhammad probably did not understand what he wrote. Or was it Allah? Do you believe that Allah has no idea about theology?
Historical contradictions in the Qur’an
written by Yibel , January 29, 2013
abc, you state: "Believing ones holy book to be infallible is of course a mainstream belief found in Judaism, Christianity and Islam."

Not so! Jews and Christians consider the Books of the Bible to be inspired works, but not infallible. Only the Qur'an - which Muslims say is the EXACT words of their gawd - is considered infallible by Muslims.

And, once again, you miss the point! WHICH IS - Muhammad got the Jewish stories ALL MIXED UP - because Muhammad was an ignorant nincompoop.

And, what about the historically inaccurate statements of this pharaoh - such as, his being the only god of the Egyptians and his ordering the building of a tower out of fired bricks? As I pointed out before, the Egyptiians had many gods, didn't fire bricks, and did not build towers!

Also, there is no historical evidence that the Egyptians, circa 2000 BCE, crucified people or chopped off hands and feet on opposite sides. Criminals were sent to work in the mines and stone quarries, not mutilated. Mutialated people don;t make good workers. They're pretty much useless! And Greek coins (drachmas) did not exist at that time. These are all historically inaccurate statements - in the Qur'an!

Sooo, abc, tell us: "what happens when such beliefs do not square with commonly accepted ‘historical facts’?" Do you keep on believing in the Qur'an, even though it does not square with commonly accepted historical facts?
written by abc , January 29, 2013
Really, maybe some one should let these christians know then. They seem to have missed the memo.
These are the sane of the bunch. You should read or meet some of your dominionists. They are hell bent(pardon the pun) on recreating conditions for the return of Jesus. Someone needs to remind them that according to the bible when the prince of peace comes back, he is going to be one bad ass. Kill pretty much everyone on the planet but a few.
There are plenty of christians who take the bible as literal word of god.

You will find i proved a point. Firstly that the book of ester should begin with "once upon a time....." and that the biblical haman may not be the same individual as the person referred to in the quran.
written by fine , January 29, 2013
Yes, that is right… you fail and bail out on defending the Quran, so to bring Quran up you bring the bible down … of course , Quran looks little better when you declare the bible as corrupted and Quran was not corrupted … even due and you know perfectly well that until 60 years after Muhammad'd death, the Quran was put together on leaves and stones ..

Uthman bin Afan collected his own and had to burn all the rest in one big pile of books of Qurans to keep the Quran as one, because different version of Quran … it was only fear of the sword kept it in tact … so Quran was corrupted just like the bible for short time … he was assassinated because he did that, each group wanted their own version of Quran to win over the others …

The problem with your logic is so clear …

First, Quran has to be judged on it's own merit .. to compare it with another bad books as you have, lowers the Quran, it does not help it …
Second, you talking to someone who do not believe, that any of these books came from a God … it is mute argument

I am not going to debate with you on the bible while you deserted the debate on the Quran.

You have flaws with your logic … you are not worth the time

Yibel and Gnostic posts were good argument … study them and learn from them ..
written by Kaser , January 29, 2013
Whatever the religion, there will be nuts. There will be a bunch that go, yet again, too far in their belief, the righteousness...
Now look at these nuts here:

Thousands of young children will pass through its doors and see dinosaurs happily wandering with Adam and Eve, as modern humans.
These same nutcases will explain that whenever science conflicts with the Bible, then science is wrong, as it has been proven in the past.

Now that is also scary... But not as scary as when the religious nuts want to kill you because you don't belive like they do.
And we know which religion takes the top spot for this!
Islamic and Chrisitan Fundamentalists
written by Gnostic , January 29, 2013
Yes, there are also christian fundamentalists, mainly the evangelicals in North America and a growing number in South America and Africa. But there are hardly any in Europe and even the Catholics are already accepting the facts of science and evolution much like the north european protestants.

In contrast, muslims are ALL fundamentalists and they even use a similar arab word for it and they are proud of it. Proud to believe that the quran was literally written by Allah.

In other word, they are proud of being ignorant of science, logic and historical facts.

There is only...
written by Betty , January 29, 2013
one true religion in this mixed up world
I hope
written by OpenSea , January 29, 2013
I hope, in his next life he would become a great human being, and finally his soul will be free from sins of religions.
written by abc , January 29, 2013
You didn't get past first base "the easy" verse. The evidence was all against you.
Then you decided to go all democratic on me. With the following question
" who on Islam watch thinks the Quran is discriminatory?"
Are you serious? I think kaser replied sarcastically, but it went straight over your head. It's clear you sat at the back wearing the d hat during Islamic studies!
The point the critique of the book of esther was making was that it is entirely possible the haman of the bible and Quran are different people. So it negated your moot point that " the bible said so"

"even due and you know perfectly well that until 60 years after Muhammad'd death, the Quran was put together on leaves and stones ."
This rubbish I did not know, I didn't learn from an imbecile.

"Second, you talking to someone who do not believe, that any of these books came from a God … it is mute argument"
So why then did you use the bible to try to rubbish another book? Oh that's right the famous Fineliving rule.
Don't do as i do but as I say.

Don't worry dear I wouldn't expect you to understand the bible.
If you didn't master your own book then what hope is there!

written by fine , January 30, 2013
your mind in caped Abc … how could I be surprised when you call the filth that Quran is, a book for your guide in life …

Basically, you condone the garbage in Quran, I absolutely DO NOT that is the deference …. no one in the right mind thinks Quran is good model for wholesome human being and because you think it is … You are a waist of my time .

Kaser was not sarcastic when he voted 1/7 is Evil … every one in their right mind will the think the same like he did … it is really sad you don't …

A lot a Muslims could have voted for you but it looks like no one cared to help the Islamic cause … you lost on 1/7 and you knew it .

1/7 is EVIL and because you think it is not …tells me we are not on the same level of morals …

Do You know who are the imbeciles ? … it is you Muslims ..there is a lot of Historical references to show how wrong you are …

It is amazing to me how Young Muslim minds welling to let filthy imams lies to them and they believe them … not one smart one will try to investigate on their own and make their minds not relying on other Muslims … Muslims are liars, they are welling to change the meaning the arabic words of Quran to fool you non arab muslims …and you believe because you want to …you want to rationalize … believe me I know a lot of muslims like you .

I thought you are smart enough to figure that out on your own … but it looks like you are not .

I read my post again and I want to correct something …'' the Quran started to be written down 30 years after the death of Muhammad … and around 60 years, from the time Quran was supposedly started to come down.

Here is the references

(1) In the Shadow of the Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World by Tom Holland, Publisher Little, Brown ISBN 9781408700075
written by fine , January 30, 2013
My post to Muslim abc was held … I hope it will be posted to show him how wrong he was .
How Quran came about ..unfortunately
written by fine , January 30, 2013
Sharia law … Muslims here have to be careful ..they might actually get what they which for
written by fine , January 30, 2013

21 century sharia advancement in the ever complicated and intricate field of chopping off hands and other parts of muslims bodies .
Ha ha ha
written by abc , January 30, 2013
So as evidence you present an article by Islam watch!
Ppplease do you know how stupid that is?
No ….slippery Muslim
written by fine , January 30, 2013
The original reference was '' in the shadow of the the sword '' … the second was added reference

if you disagree ….then why don't you, refute what the article says by providing historical evidence to counter it … otherwise, carry on ..your post is pointless
written by abc , January 30, 2013
According to the book al-Itqan by suyuti the prophet taught the Quran to 20 people. That included the 4 caliphs of thr future.
Abu Bakr had the original codex. He then passed that on to Umar who then passed it to his daughter hafza.
After the battle of yarmama in dec 632, Abu Bakr felt that the codec should be copied and distributed.
Abu Bakr asked said Ibn thabit to secure it.
Throughout this time Abu Bakr, Umar, uthman and Ali were alive.
All of then knew the Quran orally off by heart.
The link was never broken from that day to this.
and the link went into the goat shit that day to this day
written by Infidel and MP , January 31, 2013
abc do you recall the story of goat eating the verses?
And satan polluting Moh to make him write satanic verses.
And the satan keep working from that day to this.
Most Muslims do not know of this fact about Al Sarh .. it never taught or mentioned through out when i was a Muslimah
written by fine , January 31, 2013
The story of Ibn Abu Al Sarh:

This is a very important and very little known story about the Quran. Muslim scholars make every effort to tuck it away and keep it out of sight of ordinary Muslims. I only learned about this story after I left Islam.

In short: Abdulla Ibn Abu Al Sarh was one of the scribes in Medina. Once Muhammad dictated to him a verse that had one of the common endings like aleem khabeer or hakeem aleem. When Ibn Abu Al Sarh reached the end of the verse he double checked with Muhammad: “Oh prophet of Allah, is it hakeem aleem?” to which Muhammad said ‘yes, it is’. Ibn Abu Al Sarh became suspicious because he thought it was aleem khabeer. Ibn Abu Al Sarh decided to test Muhammad in future verses and noticed that Muhammad accepts his suggestions of aleem khabeer or hakeem aleem or other endings that do not distort the meaning.

Ibn Abu Al Sarh concluded that Muhammad was not a prophet but an impostor. He denounced Islam and defected to Mecca and told the Quraysh of what happened. Muhammad became very angry and vowed to kill him once he conquers Mecca, which he was preparing for. When Muhammad conquered Mecca, Ibn Abu Al Sarh was arrested but was saved from the death sentence by Uthman, his brother in breast feeding. Ibn Abu Al Sarh survived and had a successful career under the Umayad dynasty, which speaks volumes of the faith of the Umayads!
written by abc , January 31, 2013
A goat, giraffe or camel. It makes no difference as at least 20 people knew it off by heart independently of eachother!
Quran smells
written by fine , January 31, 2013
20 or a hundred … people are all fallible and especially at that time with Arabic language was not developed as arabic of today …

Beside … I guess these 20 people did not do a good job of memorizing or at least their effort was waisted , because Uthman find it necessary to gather all the existing Qurans at that time and burn them, … due to different quran's were popping all over the place … he was courageous man .. he foresee friction in the al Omma … he was smart enough to omit the harshest ones when wrote it again his way …

I guessthe part about beating wives was not harsh enough for Uthman .. he found it necessary to add it …

Strang … Allah said ...he will protect his Quran ..yet he did not protected it from Uthamn him self ..or who ever corrupted at that time .

The whole thing smell like rotten fish … Imams l i e right now every time they open their smelly mouths …what make you think they would not have done that, at the time of Uthman …

according to Malam and Reed Sharia is garbage …

what is the proof of that ? … and if they believe some Imams who memorize the Quran so why they do not believe in others ? ……. rationalizing anyone ?
written by abc , January 31, 2013
"20 or a hundred … people are all fallible and especially at that time with Arabic language was not developed as arabic of today "
That's the best Pathetic poor excuse you can come up with?
As Islam was spreading people started to argue about the quirat not the content.
So it was decided to unify the codex and introduce vowelisations for the new converts.
The link was never broken. The Quran remains unchanged.
You can cry in your cornflakes bowl all you want. Fact is fact.
written by Kaser , January 31, 2013
You want facts abc, I can give you facts. Here goes:

Fact 1- The Quran is not the work of a all-encompassing invisible super-being able to create the whole universe. If your super-being was intelligent enough to create the ADN molecule, Quasars and Supernovae, he can do SO MUCH BETTER than the drivel found in the Quran. Fact.
Fact 2- There is no hell. There is no paradise. Never saw them, never will.
Fact 3- The earth is not flat.
Fact 4- The earth spins around the sun.
Fact 5- Anyone believing that an all-encompassing invisible super-being able to create the universe and then "reveal" a book for all humans for all time containing so much violence and killing, so much human weaknesses has a serious - A SERIOUS - problem with his/her cognitive and analytical capacities...
Fact 6- Muslims are Muslims because they are born in a muslim family. There are a few exceptions of course... They stay Muslim in some cases, because not staying Muslims means Muslims will kill them... Nice no?
Fact 7- abc, you need Religion, and religions need needy humans. You comfort each other. You need each other. Billions and billions of humans need thousands of different religions. These religions need these humans to persist in time. If all children born for the next 100 years are born and raised as science-savvy atheists, bye bye religions.
Fact 8- Religions are the single most prolific source of death, conflict, misery, violence, torture, contempt and hatred.
Fact 9 - ALL RELIGIONS must be eliminated, the sooner the better.

Want some more?

Fact 10- Women are NOT weak of intelligence and religion. They are not. Allah is wrong, it seems.
Fact 11- At the risk of repeating myself... There is no god. Never heard a peep from him. Never saw him. You have never heard a peep and you never will. You will never see him.
Fact 12- The Make-believe ALLAH is an evil god, having created Satan, Hell and all that nasty crap.
Fact 13- The Make-believe ALLAH is a cruel god, burning our flesh and then placing new skins to hurt us again. This is cruel. Fact.
Fact 14- The make-believe ALLAH is merciless, punishing humans for not being Muslims because of their PARENTS NOT being Muslims.

Those are hard facts abc. Want some more??
written by fine , January 31, 2013
That is not an excuse that is fact of humen beings … the context DID CHANGE … when some where omitted formercy for women of stoning ..and that what we know off … I am sure there is others .

I do not believe or trust your Muhammad the l ia r .. I do not believe or trust your so called 20 Muslim memorizers … I do not believe or trust Muhammad's flowers … I do not believe or trust your Allah .

To me … if you are a muslims .. you are either… a l i a r .. or fool enough to let imams ..l i e ..to you … you do not look like you want to find out about the truth as it happened 1400 years ago …I DO

It is the most important thing to me in life … nothing matters except the truth .

The story of Muhammad ...and his Jibraeel ….and his cave ...and Quran and his 13 wives ..etc … do not pass the logic test or even human test … it is so fishy.. it sticks …

If Muhammad was smart he would have hired a genius to help him fix Quran for him before he told it to people .. because the way it was , it nothing but an embarrassment to Muslims from it's pure ignorance .

I know that hurt your feeling as a Muslim but it cant be helped when it is the truth , cold hard truth hurt a lot … and we deal with it all the time … that if you care to know the truth

you are more interested in proving Muhammad was truthful, ..all your believe is built on a character of one person, if that is gone …what is left? .. you only left with a life time of waisted time on a l i e !!! …you do not let your self think about this possibility..that is too hard … that is the last thing you want to think about …don't you ?.. so you don't!! ..you keep up the l.i e .
written by youcancallmeV , January 31, 2013
The Sanna Manuscripts prove that the Quran was altered, changed and revised.
written by abc , January 31, 2013
Dude you remind me of one of the 4blind men who grabbed a part of an elephant and were asked to describe the beast. All four came up with answers depending on the anatomy of the elephant. Unless you apply thought to your science you are always going to be one step behind. You do a science experiment and you have a result. Instead of screaming about the result you need to then ask what dies this result mean? What does this result tell us? Why is this result important?
You love cosmology. So let's me put the cosmological argument to you.
It hasn't changed much from the days of Aristotle (pagan) to al ghazali ( Muslim) to aquinas( Christian) to meimonedes ( jewish).
Al ghazali said that whatever exist always has a cause.
The universe exists and hence has a cause.
Aquinas went further in this argument that even if the universe had always existed it still owes its existence to an uncaused cause.
Now you can talk about subatomic bosons, to quarks to leptons etc or you can talk about matter anti matter, strong or the weak forces. These are all contingent causes.

Kaser 2
written by abc , January 31, 2013
Let me try to clarify. Let's say kaser is off in a night out and he has his Saturday night fever suit on. He then comes across a series of mirrors all balanced which reflect his favourite pose. These reflections bounce off one surface to another all the way to mathematical infinity.
Would it be possible for all these reflections to go to infinity without a real kaser?
Even if there was an infinite number of mirrors you still need a real kaser to start.
You can see where I'm going with this.
Professor Edward Feser probably explains it much better.
The book is called the last superstition.
Kaser 3
written by abc , January 31, 2013
There are many common misconceptions that prevent (even very intelligent) thinkers from properly appreciating the import of this argument. Here's a sampling:
It does not rest on the premise that "everything has a cause" which would leave open the question of what caused God. Rather the argument is that whatever comes into existence (is contingent) has a cause. Therefore, to ask "what caused God?" is really to ask "what caused the thing that cannot in principle have a cause?"
Some object that the argument doesn't prove that any particular religious belief structure is true. That's correct but irrelevant. Despite the fact that Professor Feser and I part company about four-fifths of the way down the theological path, we walk lockstep most of the way -- all monotheists do.
Many people will say that "science has shown such and such" and therefore the argument is false. The reality is that most versions of the argument do not depend on particular scientific claims in any way.
It's not a "God of the Gaps" argument. It is not intended to plug a hole in our scientific knowledge or asserted as a "best explanation" for evidence.
Kaser 4
written by abc , January 31, 2013
The most solid of scientific facts is the second law of thermodynamics. As gas as I am aware most scientific laws you always find an exception.
Eg. Gravitational laws cannot be applied to atoms. Quantum theory takes over and vice versa. However the is no exception in sciences for the second law of thermodynamics.
"energy cannot be created or destroyed but can change from one form to another"
Now if we reverse back to a millionth of second pre big bang. In order for the bang to happen you would have needed an external source of energy for all of existence to go bang? The system could not have started the system.
Ever thought about that initial spark and what caused the known universe?
written by Kaser , February 01, 2013
To you last question, yes. A lot. And I have no answer. I read a few books and many scientific papers... Still, no answer.
-- What a fascinating puzzle it is --

If the big crunch theory ever gets proven true (for this, the universe expansion will have to slow, stop, and reverse), then problem solved because the universe is a cyclic expansion/contraction/explosion/...
If not, if the big chill is the true outcome, it's depressing... truly depressing...

This is all fun astrophysics, quantum mechanics, ect...
I am delighted you are aware of these concepts. either you googled them, or your truly researched them. Congratulations for the latter.
second law of thermodynamics... Ahhhh. Fantastic. Energy conservation, ect...
Meaning no god can spontaneously exist either, nor can he spontaneously create matter. So back to square one.

All this abc, I take in the context of "no god", because there is nothing in these observations that indicate ANY divine intervention. At any level.
We have to search and search and search. To find out, maybe, there is no purpose at all for all this.

It just is.
written by abc , February 01, 2013
"it just is"
I refuse to believe that, there is no reason logic behind "it just is".
The definition of god is that he exists independently ( the final cause if you will).
"It does not rest on the premise that "everything has a cause" which would leave open the question of what caused God. Rather the argument is that whatever comes into existence (is contingent) has a cause. Therefore, to ask "what caused God?" is really to ask "what caused the thing that cannot in principle have a cause?"

Now you may argue that dimensional causality negates the need for a god.
Where every permutation of every action is played out in different dimensions.
So in some dimension somewhere we have a Muslim kaser! :-)
These are just playthings on a mathematicians note book.

Now let's look at the expansion then contraction to a point then expansion again theory. "cyclic" you called it. Let's imagine that you are sat by a train track. You notice that this train track looks like the perfect sine wave but carries on upto further than your eye can perceive in both directions. All you see is the luggage cart after luggage cart passing you on this sine wave motion. Would you assume there is no engine driving this thing.
So for a universe to expand contract then expand again would need a driving force independent of the nature and motion if the universe.

Quran is more than 60% hatred and threats
written by lw1 , February 02, 2013
Yahoo Maktoob. 1/2/2013. Deadly explosion hits Pakistan worshippers
At least 27 people have been killed and more than 40 others wounded after a suicide bomber detonated his explosives outside a mosque in north-west Pakistan, police say.
The explosion in Hangu town happened as worshippers were leaving the mosque after Friday prayers.
It was a suicide attack which targeted Shias but Sunni Muslims also fell victim since their mosque and some shops were also close by.
to abc
written by Infidel and MP , February 02, 2013
"So for a universe to expand contract then expand again would need a driving force independent of the nature and motion if the universe. "

abc to xyz "Scientists call it dark energy" not Allah and his stooge Mohamed.
written by abc , February 02, 2013
I call it your mama now kindly foxtrot off I'm talking at kaser!
Entropy is the name of the game
written by Yibel , February 02, 2013
abc, the following is the FIRST Law of Thermodynamics - conservation of energy - NOT the Second:

"energy cannot be created or destroyed but can change from one form to another"

The Second Law states: "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is commonly referred to as entropy.

According to The Second Law of Thermodynamics "we live in a universe that is becoming ever more disordered and that there is nothing we can do about it.

The mere act of living contributes to the inexorable degeneration of the world. No matter how advanced our machines become, they can never completely avoid wasting some energy and running down. Not only does the second law squash the dream of a perpetual-motion machine, it suggests that the cosmos will eventually exhaust its available energy and nod off into an eternal stasis known as heat death." - from article by J. Miguel Rubí in: scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-nature-breaks-the-second-law

"So for a universe to expand contract then expand again would need a driving force independent of the nature and motion if the universe. " - MP

Quite true! Maybe Allah is The Dark Side of the Force!
written by Kaser , February 02, 2013
I would enjoy discussions with you and Yibel, with a good 16 or 18-year old scotch and a fireplace! (Well, tea for you abc... !!)

Now you threw in a lot of concepts here, some as you say, mainly functioning equation systems of a math scratch pad.
We could add in determinism, which also makes sense relative to physics of the very small. But you know and I know that our actions are not dictated simply by the current state of the atoms of our bodies. Our complex system makes us able to add another layer of sentient decision making that raise us above chemical reactions.

Is this a soul and proof of god? Indeed that may be the key. But what is this soul? I believe the soul is actually the very very complex electro-chemical systems in our brains. Not a god-created vaporous intangible spirit that we have so much difficulty to explain. Because if there is a god-created soul inhabiting our bodies, it should be impervious to damage to our brains no? But it's not. Our identity (our soul) is our brain and it's complex structures. (Actually the most complex system currently known to us).

Expansion contraction can exists without an engine methinks, if we see the universe as a closed system. Whatever happens in terms of energy/mass it stays within the system and will end-up anyway in the big-crunch, assuming the latter will vacuum up the very last photon. But unlikely.., as photons and neutrinos are spewed out into infiniti, hence, taking energy with them... The Universe cannot be a perpetual machine, as sexy as the concept may be.

As Yibel correctly points out, the big chill or heath death is the current likely candidate... and depressing as I said above because it means, scientifically, that what everything we currently observe is actually slowly dissapearing. When the last white dwarf stars cool, in trillions of years, and everything tends to the absolute zero, to zero entropy... Then that's it for us and all other sentient life forms out there. Without heat, there is no life, since there will not be sufficient available energy to sustain chemical reactions, and life.

Now abc.... why? What's the purpose of the universe if it is doomed to spread out, cool down and simply extinguish itself?

Divine? No... harsh reality? Yes.
Allow me to interrupt .. if you please
written by fine , February 02, 2013
May be God IS anergy …. and God is not what thought to be as out side of our existence who creates … may be God perishes alone side all of us when last bit of anergy [ god ] in ousted …

The Old, overused, idea of imperishable God that is the creator seems all wrong because it does not make any sense .. but the idea that anergy can create life,heat and movement, in the same time it is * vulnerable to death * it self, is more accepted after all, we human are creating brains that thinks and we have been creating everything since first man walked on earth, in the same time, we are vulnerable to death.

Why this could not be applied to A God [ anergy ] ?
written by Kaser , February 02, 2013
A good point.
Another good point is this one: How about if life on earth was seeded by a lifeforme from another sector of our galaxy? It might be possible... We have the technology to do so ourselves right now. Today, we are able to send machines on other celestial bodies. What prevents us from dumping a soup of bacteria, viruses, ect...?

In due time, we will find exoplanets similar to earth, with liquid water... They are just very difficult to locate, what with the super-bright stars nearby.

Does that ability make us gods ourselves since we will have created life on another planet ???
written by fine , February 03, 2013
All doable possibilities ….

I am sure Human will create life in other plants and some people will call it '' a miracle'' hallauya from God …hahaha

I predict Humans will try to save humanity and all life from ailing earth, and living on earth becomes no longer feasible or healthy after we find a hospitable plant .. Humans will wake up one day and discover that no amount of praying, helped with one ...d a m n … thing .

it amazing how we are creating parts of bodies, created on bodies of mice like ears and noses and then install them on people in who lost their parts, in burns

the things we already achieved are mind bouncing …

The army created a device to make a person disappear right in front of your eyes … amazing things we sow in science fiction moves we thought it will never happen .. think of positive and negative possibilities of kind of invention .

I became fascinated with science, after I lost all fascination with religion and the fake Gods that it describes …

I mean when Allah says in Quran''…

The starts were created for the angles to hide behind and eavesdrop on Satan and jinns …

And the moon is BIGGER in size THEN THE STARS …. hahaha … what else I am going to think .

Anybody who still think, Quran came from a God … have to have their head examined .

written by Kaser , February 05, 2013
Imagine where the Islamic nations would be today if the hundreds of millions of Muslims had spent time learning valuable knowledge instead of learning the Quran.
Imagine if they had imagined, researched and evolved, versus spending so much time learning a religion frozen in time since the 7th century...

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