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Quran Sound, Sane and Rational?

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That's certainly doubtful. What's certainly not doubtful is: The Quran is a 'laughing stock'.


quran smart-Ass

In the comment section of this site I asked a Muslim who said people should read the Quran instead of reading my articles, whether she has read the Quran. She replied, "Yes I did. Your strategies are not going to work on any sound, sane and rational mind. You’re wasting your time, take my word."

I am not going to take her word, but I decided to quote a few verses of the Quran and ask Muslims to highlight the parts that are sound, sane and rational.

The Quran says (Q.2:31),

“Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals.” And then the angels tested him to make sure he has remembered them.

So far zoologists have recorded 20,000 species of fish, 6,000 species of reptiles, 9,000 birds, 1,000 amphibians, and 15,000 species of mammals. And, although there are a million named species of insects, scientists estimate that there could be another million waiting to be discovered and named! This number does not include subspecies. There are even more species of plants.

Under this light can you still say that the verse 2:31 is sound, sane and rational?

The Quran 2:55-56 says, Allah stroke Moses with lightening and then revived him so Moses thank Him.

“And when ye said: O Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly; and even while ye gazed the lightning seized you. Then We revived you after your extinction, that ye might give thanks.”

I don’t know what is your definition of sound, sane and rational. This sounds like something someone suffering from narcissistic personality disorder would do. Narcissists love to crush and humiliate others and then rescue them in order to show their absolute power over them. This video is a perfect example of what I am talking about. No sane person with sound and rational mind would behave in this way, let alone God, the maker of this universe. This pathetic behavior befits mentally insane people.

The Quran 2:61 says at the time of Moses Allah brought down abasement and humiliation upon the Jews because they disbelieved in the messages of Allah and killed the prophets unjustly.

The injustice of this punishment is not the point. The point is that Moses was the first prophet sent to the Jews. So how could Allah punish them for a crime that they had not yet committed?

Is this sound, sane and rational?

The Quran 41:11 says, “Then He [Allah] directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.”

Even the first graders know that heaven and earth are not separate from each other. Earth is s spec inside the vast universe – the heaven. So the Earth and the Heaven coming together or being separate from each other is an absurdity. The Earth is inside the heaven. It can never be separate from it. But that is not my point. My point is that Earth and all other planets and stars that make up the heaven are inanimate objects. They move by the force of gravity. They don’t have a mind of their own and can’t obey or disobey. They are rocks. Can rocks think, talk and decide what to do? According to the Quran 2:74 yes. It says “And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah.” This to me sounds like stories told for children, not for sound, sane and rational minds.

The verses 2:65-66 claim that Jews were told not to break the Sabbath, but when they did, Allah transformed them into apes and made them despised and hated, to set an example and admonition to the God-fearing.

This story is repeated three times in the Quran. It does not sound very sound, sane and rational. Now of course Allah can do anything even the ridiculous. My question is whether this punishment does not exceed the crime. Why working in Sabbath should be such a big deal for Allah and if it is, why He did not ratify it with Muhammad? Allah ratified the law or stoning the adulterers, but forgot to ratify the abstention from work in Sabbath?

Asma, is one young lady who left Islam a few months ago. She was helped by Shakila whose story is posted in this site. She wrote to me a few days ago pointing to a contradiction in the Quran that I had not noticed.

She said that despite the fact that usury (ribah) is prohibited in Islam, Allah in the Quran 2:245 offers ribah to Muslims. He asks them to finance Muhammad’s wars and promises to repay them with huge interest after they die. She asked why is it okay for Allah and his messenger to practice usury, but it is not okay for Muslims? Asma is wrong. Ribah in Islam is prohibited. Allah and his messenger in this verse are practicing taqiyyah, the holy deception. There will be no reward for all those benighted fools who give their money and life for Muhammad and his fictitious Allah. It does not sound logical for God to need people’s money to finance the raids of his prophet when he can count with the force of his angels and can make calamities to strike his enemies.

At least in the time of Moses, Allah punished his detractors on his own. Did he lose his power when he sent Muhammad? Why would he need to borrow money from Muslims to finance the raids of his favorite prophet?

Although the Quran repeatedly claims to be conveyed clearly (Q. 2:99; 5:15 -16; 10:15; 6:55; 45:25; 41:53; 35:40; 26:195; 24:1; 17:12; 2:256), a complete book that covers all things (Q. 6:38; 16:89; 17:89; 18:54), easy to understand (44:58 , 54:22 , 54:32, 54:40) with all kinds of examples (Q.39:27; 30:58) and no doubt in it (Q 2:2; 11:1), explained in detail (Q. 6:114), which cannot be changed (Q 6:115; 15:41), self-explanatory (Q. 2:185) and without any contradiction (Q 4:82), the verse 3:7 says, Allah “is he who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation, but none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge. This verse seems to be contradicting all those claims about the clarity and the ease of understanding of the Quran.

What is the point of giving parables that no one understands? Parables are used to make complex concepts clear, not to make them more difficult to understand. Something does not sound very sound, sane and rational in this verse.

Now here is something that is sane, sound and rational. The verse 2:230 says if a man divorces his wife three times she shall not be lawful to him afterwards until she marries another husband; then if he divorces her there is no blame on them if they return to each other.

Brilliant! If in the heat of rage you utter the word talaq three times to your wife, you can no longer remarry her until someone else marries her, takes her to bed and enjoys her for some times and then if he divorces her you can take the mother of your children home and she will become lawful to you again.

This goes beyond sane, sound and rational. It is genius! How could an illustrate man of the Seventh Century Arabia know this much?

But let us be fair. There are also nuggets of truth in the Quran. Take the example of the verse 3:34 that says "and Allah is the best of deceivers" (waAllahu khayru almakireen). Who can argue with that? This is where the Bible and the Quran coincide. The Book of Revelation 12:9 says Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.

Comments (55)Add Comment
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Brilliant
written by Worldpeace , August 12, 2012
Brilliant, Ali Sina. Of course Muslims are wont of giving absurd explanations to more absurd phenomenon. Read William, let here you and your team members making sound sane and rational of these and many more verses of the confused Koran.
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koran
written by annad , August 12, 2012
I read koran out of curiosity. It mostly sounded to me like tales you tell to very little children. Maybe around 3 to 4 years old. Hey mommy aka allah knows best. Children are found in cabbage blah blah blah sun sets into mud blah blah. Very primitive books and mostly gives simple instructions. Not too much food for thoughts. I have yet to figure it out why it is considered the most perfect arabic book (by muslims of course). I found that other arabic literature is much more sophisticated even as little as i read from it.
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...
written by berq , August 12, 2012
A very good article by Ali Sina.If you read the commentries of few renowned Muslim scholars you would realised that in last fourteen centuries there is not a single person in Muslim ummah who is able to understand Quran perfectly,expect muhammad.More you read Quranic commentries more you become confused and puzzled.Nobody knows the authentic meaning of the verse.As Muhammad desired then Allah revealed the verse according the situation.A Quranic commentator gives to many reasons,why the verse was reveald.Islamists believe that every verse of the Quran has different meaning and reason,therefore need the interpretation to understand its meaning in the context.The truth is this that no context is exists in the Quran.The whole Quran has been writen without context.May be this is one of the reason that Muslims are in confusion.
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@ annad
written by Brown Superman , August 12, 2012
Sun sets into the mud? No wonder, the sun this morning had one side smeared with mud. All along, I thought it was camel dung, till now. Thanks Annad.
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to brown
written by annad , August 12, 2012
You should read the koran; the gods revelations; you will learn even more interesting informaion. ;)
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Ali Sina the smart ass
written by kope , August 13, 2012
Quran Sound, Sane and Rational?


islam is the fastest growing religion in the west because islam makes sense
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 13, 2012
Mr. Ali Sina. Quran Sound, Sane and Rational to sane and rational.

لَّـٰكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلَاةَ ۚ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّـهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ أُولَـٰئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

"However, the learned among them and the faithful believe in what God has revealed to you and to the others before you and those who are steadfast in prayer, pay their charity, and believe in God and the Day of Judgment. They all will receive a great reward from me". 4:162

We know now that sun does not set at all and Quran told this 1400 ago.

وَآيَةٌ لَّهُمُ اللَّيْلُ نَسْلَخُ مِنْهُ النَّهَارَ فَإِذَا هُم مُّظْلِمُونَ ﴿٣٧﴾ وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ ﴿٣٨﴾ وَالْقَمَرَ قَدَّرْنَاهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَالْعُرْجُونِ الْقَدِيمِ ﴿٣٩﴾ لَا الشَّمْسُ يَنبَغِي لَهَا أَن تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ ۚ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ

"Of the signs for them is how We separated the day from the night and thus they remained in darkness; how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God; how We ordained the moon to pass through certain phases until it seems eventually to be like a bent twig; how the sun is not supposed to catch-up with the moon, nor is the night to precede the day. All of them are to float in a certain orbit; 36:37-40
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Movement of sun.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 13, 2012
In recent decades, solar astronomers have been able to observe that (Bartusiac, M. (1994) ‘Sounds of the Sun’, American Scientist, January-February, pp.61-68) the sun is not in fact motionless. It quivers and shakes and continually rings like a well-hit gong. These vibrations of the sun reveal vital information about the sun’s deep interior, its hidden layers, information which affects calculations of the age of the universe. Also, knowing exactly how the sun spins internally is important in testing Einstein’s theory of general relativity. Like so many other significant findings in astronomy, this discovery about the sun was totally unexpected. Having discovered the quivering and ringing sun, some astronomers have commented that it is as if the sun were a symphony orchestra, with all the instruments being played simultaneously. All the vibrations combine at times to produce a net oscillation on the solar surface that is thousands of times stronger than any individual vibration.
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re: Reed
written by Gnostic , August 13, 2012
You are so desperate! If the quran says that the sun will never catch up with the moon it suggests that the sun is trailing behind IN ITS ORBIT. This is the ancient ptolemaean view that the moon, the sun and the planets are all orbiting earth which is positioned in the middle.
By the way, the quran does say that the sun is setting. In the Surah the Cave the sun sets in murky waters ---

Why did the author of the quran not simply reveal that the moon is orbiting the earth while earth and all other planets are orbiting the sun which is fixed? Instead the quran says that the sun is moving is wrong in this context. In relation to earth the sun is fixed. Got it?
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Gnostic & Reed
written by Bingo , August 13, 2012
@ Gnostic, good comment. Also, I fail to see any surah in the Quran depicting the motion of earth.

@ Reed, if I am not aware of the solar system, I would say both the sun and the moon move in orbits simply by observing the sky. However, if I am educated then I would say earth also moves in orbit and around the Sun. But, Allah failed to mention anything about earth's motion. I am not sure if he was educated enough at that time.
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to Ali Sina
written by Not sure , August 13, 2012
i did not read your article fully, but i read the Quran in the Arabic version and it sounded different from what you was saying. just so you know i have Arabic and English as native languages.
the first verse you quoted is actually in Arabic as :"and he taught Adam all the names"
it did not explain who is he and whether Adam's mind and physique is similar to us humans of the 21st centuary. as you well know people of even 1 centuary away from us have different specific physique a study in the UK proves that humans were larger than us.
but it is a nice site that keeps Muslim thinking about their religion thus believe more or not.
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nil
written by @kope , August 13, 2012
Fastest growing religion in the West ? I have my doubts. but their numbers are depleting faster still in the Muslim world. Over 30,000 have been killed by Pres. Assad of Syria. Millions are starving in Syria, Yemen, Morroco n other poor moslem countries, which have the highest infant morality rate. Now Muslims form the greatest portion of the world's refugees. Don't forget the millions had been killed in the Arab-Israeli, Iran-Iraq, the Gulf wars n the Arab Spring, or rather the Arab bloody revolutions.
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re: @kope
written by Gnostic , August 13, 2012
Very interesting point. It is very similar to the situation some 25 years ago when communism seemed to grow but in fact nobody was counting the people who were not believing in communism. Maybe most muslims are still believing in islam but not so in Iran and the same will happen in other countries with islamic governments. People must get the chance to realise that islamic governments are no better if they face the same problems.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 13, 2012
The perpetual rotation of night and day is quite clearly described in the Quran. It is easy for the human understanding to grasp this notion nowadays because we have the idea of the Sun's (relative) immobility and the Earth's rotation. This process of perpetual coiling, including the inter penetration of one sector by another is expressed in the Quran just as if the concept of the Earth's roundness had already been conceived at the time-which was obviously not the case.

The logic of mountains is given that they give stability to earth so that it may not dwindle. There was no need of such an arrangement if the earth was considered fixed.

Even tectonic movements of earth and movement of mountains are found in Quran. See 27:88

وَتَرَى الْجِبَالَ تَحْسَبُهَا جَامِدَةً وَهِيَ تَمُرُّ مَرَّ السَّحَابِ ۚ صُنْعَ اللَّـهِ الَّذِي أَتْقَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۚ إِنَّهُ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَفْعَلُونَ
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GOD=MOTEHR NATURE IS ALL POWERFUL CAN DO ANYTHING EVEN COME AS HUMAN AND BE WORSHIPPED AS STONE IDOL
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROOON , August 13, 2012
GOD=MOTEHR NATURE IS ALL POWERFUL CAN DO ANYTHING EVEN COME AS HUMAN AND BE WORSHIPPED AS STONE IDOL.

who r the jews xtians jihadislamists to make flase claim that god=mother nature is human or cant be in stone idol ?

since god is all powerful,and can do anything then surely god=mother nature can take human form and also be worshipped as stone idol.

so let us start by installing idols of mother earth and mother nature=god as HOLY MENSTRUATING GODDESSESS first in kaba and worship god-mother nature.
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Reed is wrong
written by Gnostic , August 13, 2012
The quran teaches that earth was spread out like a carpet. The idea of mountains fixing earth is laughable and wrong. Heaven is thought to be a wall made of hard material. Sun is not fixed because it is described as trailing behind the moon and that Allah forces the sun to go in this direction.

Many muslims like Reed are panicking because modern science contradicts what is written in the quran. Trhe only reason why islam stll survives for some time is that most muslims have no modern education since book printing was forbidden by muslim authorities for centuries and for superstitious reason (Allah teched men to write with a pen according to quran).

The result is devastating: Lowest literacy rates and lowest human development indices, lack of know how are only the result of islam preventing muslims to develop.
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Reed is wrong
written by Gnostic , August 13, 2012
The quran teaches that earth was spread out like a carpet. The idea of mountains fixing earth is laughable and wrong. Heaven is thought to be a wall made of hard material. Sun is not fixed because it is described as trailing behind the moon and that Allah forces the sun to go in this direction.

Many muslims like Reed are panicking because modern science contradicts what is written in the quran. Trhe only reason why islam stll survives for some time is that most muslims have no modern education since book printing was forbidden by muslim authorities for centuries and for superstitious reason (Allah teched men to write with a pen according to quran).

The result is devastating: Lowest literacy rates and lowest human development indices, lack of know how are only the result of islam preventing muslims to develop.
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Gnostic
written by abc , August 13, 2012
"The result is devastating: Lowest literacy rates and lowest human development indices, lack of know how are only the result of islam preventing muslims to develop"

Whilst Islam is growing in the west!
The places where all the indices are excellent and books are not banned!
What say ye now???
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Quran
written by balam , August 13, 2012
Quran seems to be a book of 'CONFUSION' written by a confused man.Thank you Dr.Ali Sina.You articles are always precious like gems.MAY THE LIVING GOD BLESS YOU EVER MORE.
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re: abc
written by Gnostic , August 13, 2012
A few radicals but still less than the numbers of communists or nazists, there are even more buddhists than muslims while many konvert to islam in oder to get married with a muslim.
But there are more interesting numbers: In Europe, the majoritiy of young people without degree are muslims. They are much behind even compared to other foreigners and the share of muslims in prison is also incredible high.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 13, 2012
balam. I once addressed you and Yibel as knowledgeable ladies. Yibel reacted and said it is 'rude and ill mannered'. Now I know that you are gentlemen.

I am surprised that even addressing as a lady is bad manner and rude.

I remember, once Archpagan also wrongly assumed that Great Buana was a knowledgeable lady and his reaction was no different.

What is bad in a lady!!
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Gnostic
written by abc , August 13, 2012
"But there are more interesting numbers: In Europe, the majoritiy of young people without degree are muslims. They are much behind even compared to other foreigners and the share of muslims in prison is also incredible high"

Is this state the obvious day! Of course first generation immigrants do not do as well as the naturalised population. You will find that the gap is closed by the second generation. First generation immigrants come for manual labour whilst their children will go get degrees!
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re: abc
written by Gnostic , August 13, 2012
Who do you think will feed the muslims if there are no infidels left? Do you think that aliens will send wheat to earth? And what will young muslims learn at school? That they are made of clot and that everybody should beat his wife? Do you really, really want this?
And who would by the oil from the muslims? And who wil prevent them from killing each other? Doy you really, really think that the muslims could survive without the infidels? No way!
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black fire
written by male kuffar , August 13, 2012
I agree that the Quran and the hadith have very little scientific information, and that the ideas found in these documents could have been written by any intelligent observer of that time.

But every now and then the Quran and the hadith mention something that was not known at the time, and which could be adduced as strong evidence that a supernatural intelligence conveyed this information to the authors of the Quran and the hadith.

One hadith states that the fire of hell changed color as it was stoked and heated: it was red at first, then it became white, and then it became pitch black. An Islamic website devoted to scientific facts in the Quran and hadith champions this information as strong evidence for the truth of Islam. Now I certainly do not endorse this belief, and yet it provides some sobering thought. According to the laws of blackbody radiation, the radiant color of an ideal blackbody is related to its temperature. As the temperature increases, the wavelength of maximum emission decreases (the Wien displacement law). Red color is associated with relatively cool temperature. As the temperature increases, then the wavelength of maximum intensity shifts towards the blue part of the spectrum, and the overall color of the object is white (the combination of all colors). As the temperature increases, the object radiates mostly in the ultraviolet region of the spectrum, and our eyes perceive ultraviolet radiation as black (as in "black light" lamps). The progression of color goes from red (relatively cool), then white (intermediate), and then black (extremely hot).

In my profession of firefighting, yellow flames have that color because of unburned carbon, and that is a combustion issue, rather than a blackbody issue. The sun is a yellow star with effective surface temperature 6000 Kelvin, and its color is due to the Wien displacement law. But suppose that the solar surface temperature could be raised tenfold to 60,000 Kelvin. Then the sun would appear to be almost pitch black, since nearly all of its radiation would fall in the ultraviolet region, which our eyes perceive as total darkness.

I am not at all convinced that this hadith anticipated the Wien displacement law, but the author of the Islamic website strongly affirms this conjecture, and uses it as evidence for the truth of Islam. It is almost certainly a pure coincidence that the author of this particular hadith just happened to stumble upon a correct interpretation of the color of fire. But I must admit that I shudder at the thought that the author may have been given information from a supernatural authority, i.e. the God of Islam. I hope that I never experience the incredible temperature (20,000 C / 36,000 F) required to make the Fire of the Islamic Hell to appear pitch black.

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...
written by Shibli Zaman , August 13, 2012
All you kuffar are morons. Arabic is the most complicated language with each word having hundreds of of meaning. Quran is perfect if you understand it perfectly well.
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Re: Fire
written by Gnostic , August 13, 2012
It is sheer nonsense that only reveals how desperate Muslims try to find moidern science in the quran. They refer to this single qute from Surah 88:4:

"They will enter hot blazing fire"

Muslims make the claim that this very simple and in fact disgusting sentence refers ti the colors of radiation according to Wien's displacement law but in fact there is no colour mentioned at all. In fact any idiot can create such a sentence and nobody can conclude anything from it.

Ancient people used fire every day and there is nothing specal at all about it. If you fan a fire you will receive a blazing fire - so what?

The discussion is here:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21818&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=70fbf7ed06369b6af3cd44d19ad2a947

I would say that the claims are only laughable but some people even made the efforts that the quran is even wrong - what can be wrong here? Anybody who claims that the term "blazing fire" reveals any knowledge of modern science is a scharlatan and nothing else!

All attempts to spread fear by suggesting that there is a burning hell wating for people who don not believe are evil! Nobody must be forced to believe in anything! Everybody is invited to make his own decision by his own thinking!

This is an insolence against all people who try to discover the truth with scientific methods! Muslims do the opposite by pointing to the quran and suggeszting that this MUST be the truth. But this is wrong. Tghe truth begins with the doubt!
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@ Shibli Zaman
written by balam , August 14, 2012
Arabic is quite a language which suits quran because you can bend it any way you like.Islam is slippery like a snake.It never goes in a straight line.The devil seems to be genius in producing quran.
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Great Islamic science
written by Yibel , August 14, 2012
36:37 The night is another sign for men. For the night we lift the day - and they are plunged into darkness.
36:38 THE SUN HASTENS TO ITS RESTING PLACE: its course is laid for it by the Mighty One, the All-Knowing.
36:39 We have ordained phases for the moon, which daily wanes and in the end appears like a bent old twig.
36:40 The sun is not allowed to overtake the moon, nor does the night outpace the day. Each in its own path swims.

Yes, that's right, the Qur'an teaches that the sun orbits the earth! (Q 21:33 and Q 36:40)

In the aHadith, Muhammad explained that at sunset, the sun “goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun runs its fixed course for a term (decreed)’

In surah 36, we are told that the name of this Allah is Ar-Rahman, the thunder god of the Assyrian/Babylonian pantheon: "A revelation of Ar-Raheem/Ar-Rahman (the Merciful). That you might warn a people whose fathers were never warned before them, so they live in heedlessness." (v.3-6)
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@ shibli
written by Xyz , August 14, 2012
"All you kuffar are morons. Arabic is the most complicated language with each word having hundreds of of meaning. Quran is perfect if you understand it perfectly well."

And this is why Allah says Quran is very simple and easy to understand?
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sura 41
written by male kuffar , August 14, 2012
Back when I was studying the Quran (age 16), I was fascinated by sura 41, verses 19 to 23. This is the passage that discusses how the body of a kuffar will testify against him on the day of judgment. I pondered this passage and came up with my own interpretation. I am unqualified to interpret the Quran, but I was extremely proud of the bit of quranic exegesis that I carried out many years ago.

The reference to eyes and ears is straightforward, but the reference to skins is rather vague. When the passage affirmed that my skins will testify against me, I was pretty sure that it did not mean my thumb or my large toe. I decided that, in the case of a male kuffar, it was obvious what body part was meant. Even the plural "skins" makes sense, because this particular part contains regular skin and mucous membrane. I was both horrified and thrilled to think that my COCK would testify when I am brought before the throne of Allah on the day of judgment.

I realized even then that this outcome was improbable, with no more than five percent chance. But I had no doubt that Allah could make it happen: if Islam turned out to be the true religion, then the God of Islam would be infinitely powerful. For Allah, it would be no more difficult to give my penis the power of articulate speech than it would be for him to keep my circulatory system functioning.
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A lesson in English
written by Yibel , August 14, 2012
Reply to Reed Wilson: "balam. I once addressed you and Yibel as knowledgeable ladies. Yibel reacted and said it is 'rude and ill mannered'. Now I know that you are gentlemen...What is bad in a lady!!"

Using the word "lady" when referring to a third part who is not present is a compliment provided the person is female. For example, my saying to you concerning fineliving56, "She is a lady." That is a compliment. But, using the term "lady/ladies" when speaking directly to someone is derogatory name
-calling. Bullies use these terms (lady/ladies) to emasculate other males who they feel are not manly enough - or as a put-down of women.

Fineliving56 has stated that she is female, and she has posted in a very refined and civil manner - even under extreme provocation - so she is a lady. I will miss her posts here at iw and pray for her well-being.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2012
Dear Gnostic. You write "By the way, the quran does say that the sun is setting. In the Surah the Cave the sun sets in murky waters". May I give the translation of the verse 18:86 under criticism.

"Until, when he reached (بلغ) the setting of the sun, he found it (وجدها) hiding in a spring of murky water (تغرب في عين): Near it (the water) he found (ووجد عندها) a People: We said: "O Dhul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

Arabic word تغرب is not essentially used for setting it is used for hiding also as you will see in 10:61

وَمَا تَكُونُ فِي شَأْنٍ وَمَا تَتْلُو مِنْهُ مِن قُرْآنٍ وَلَا تَعْمَلُونَ مِنْ عَمَلٍ إِلَّا كُنَّا عَلَيْكُمْ شُهُودًا إِذْ تُفِيضُونَ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَا يَعْزُبُ عَن رَّبِّكَ مِن مِّثْقَالِ ذَرَّةٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَا فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَا أَصْغَرَ مِن ذَٰلِكَ وَلَا أَكْبَرَ إِلَّا فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ

"Nor is hidden (و ما يعزب) from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven....".

I hope I could explain. Where is our illustrious Arabic expert, fineliving56?

It is good for you if you understand.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2012
Yes Yibel you are right. It is Bukhari hadis

"In the a Hadith, Muhammad explained that at sunset, the sun “goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then ....".

I have already discussed and proved to you by Quran that ahadith contradict Quran and they are invented to refute Quran and nullify its effect.

You write "That you might warn a people whose fathers were never warned before them, so they live in heedlessness." (v.3-6)"

What is your objection Sir?
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2012
Shibli Zaman. Oh Shibli Zaman. I missed you a lot on this site. I hope you have been fine all that period.
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courtesy to all persons
written by male kuffar , August 14, 2012
I just want to point out that we should ALL be courteous to other persons on this forum.

This forum has wonderful topics. We should address issues, and avoid personal attacks.

No matter what religion we have, we should always assume the very best in other people.

Every religion and every good philosophy has some variation of the Golden Rule: do unto others what you would have them do unto you. I am a Christian, and I honor the Golden Rule as the apex of the moral teachings of Jesus Christ. But all religions and all noble philosophies affirm the Rule. Let us endeavor to treat one another in accordance with this universal standard of ethical practice.

No religion or philosophy is more important than the Golden Rule. If you offend others in pursuit of your version of truth, then you may need to stop and examine what you believe. I would not have my principles defended by being obnoxious to others. I cannot please God by being rude to people.

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Science is not infallible
written by abc , August 14, 2012
The very fact that there are competing epsiteological systems in science each of which contradicts the other whilst Islam remains immovably fixed is proof of the superiority of faith over reason. Reed wilson my akhee is right. And so am I.
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Oh dear
written by abc , August 14, 2012
We have an imposter. The above comments are not mine.
What did Oscar Wild say about Imitation???
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abc
written by annad , August 14, 2012
Whoever posted about science being faulty is just a laughing stock. This was incredibly stupid comment.
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...
written by abc , August 14, 2012
You flatter yourself sir. Now stop posting under my name
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Statement of Faith
written by DeDoc , August 14, 2012
Mr. Ali Sina. Quran Sound, Sane and Rational to sane and rational. - Reed Wison


You ought not confuse wishful thinking with fact friend. The Qu'ran claims ad nauseum about how clear the message is, to the point of protesting too much. This type of writing is dogmatic and the purpose is to act as a bulwark for the dyed-in-wool believer. However, such claims are not supported by the internal evidence within the Qu'ran, especially when you consult the tafsir (commentaries). If you take one of the earliest and most respected exegetical works on Qu'ran by al-Tabari, you get a sense of how confounded he was over the meanings of certain passages and individual words. How could a person as supposedly devout and learned and close to the time of the supposed prophet of Islam offer so many interpretations? If the expert of experts had to resort to hand waving arguments to explain that which is 'clear' (mubeen), how can anyone say it makes sense? Only those with the blinders of faith in absolute truth of Islam can advocate that position.

Reed needs to broaden his horizens and start reading about the textual/higher criticism on Qu'ran, rather than boring us with his silly statements of faith. Save those for the masjid fellow - we are not buying your brand of feces here.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2012
De Doc. You write "However, such claims are not supported by the internal evidence within the Qu'ran, especially when you consult the tafsir (commentaries). If you take one of the earliest and most respected exegetical works on Qu'ran by al-Tabari, you get a sense of how confounded he was over the meanings of certain passages and individual words."

Why to consult tafseer? Quran is addressing common man direct and expects him to follow it. If Tabri had clarified Quran, how Mr.Surjit Das would say it was confusing?

You did not mention what the internal evidence say.

It is only Reed who needs to broaden his horizons. Others should also care to overcome their narrow mindedness.

You want me rely the human interpretations for the Gods message. Tabri is 10th century Egyptian professional who takes no responsibility for correctness of his reports.

I feel that Quran is clear to understand and any interpretation of simplest can only confuse it.

Have you read my August 13, 2012 post for
Mr. Ali Sina appeared above? What do you have to say about it?
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Xyz
written by Shibli Zaman , August 15, 2012
It is your interpretation that quran is easy. Allah sent the prophet to interpret quran the way Allah meant it , explain it fully and and live it. Thus prophet was a living quran. If Quran was that easy like you claim, there was no need to send the prophet.
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shibli zaman
written by male kuffar , August 15, 2012
Mr. Zaman:

I welcome you to this wonderful forum.

I think that I will enjoy reading your posts.

Male Kuffar (a Christian firefighter).



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previous posts
written by male kuffar , August 15, 2012
After I reread my post entitled "black fire", I was convinced that the author of that hadith had been given information that could only have come from a supernatural source. Whether that source was Allah or Satan, I cannot say, but the information is undeniably correct.

After I reread my post entitled "sura 41", I was convinced that my interpretation of "skins" was absolutely correct. Of course this interpretation applies only to MALE kuffars, including myself.
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Reed Wilson
written by DeDoc , August 15, 2012
You may wish to read M. Sfar's "In Search of the Original Koran" (2008) for starters. I have read two different translations of Qu'ran and labored through the Arabic (I am not fluent, but use transliterations and am working on the alphabetic recognition). I have also worked my way through many tafsir. I have opened my mind enough to read the words from those who believe. Surely you can open yours as well.

If you claim that your beliefs are faith, there is not much I can do. I read Qu'ran not for devotional purpose, but to see the history of its composition. If you claim there is an inherent logic to the Islamic historiography of how Qu'ran came to be, then you need to show it. I see it like all other religious texts - writings that were compiled and redacted and edited to fit the theology. We humans are quite creative in all endeavors to include religion.
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re: male kuffar
written by Gnostic , August 15, 2012

I have got one question to you: Are you a pyromaniac like so many firemen?
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 18, 2012
DeDoc. "If you claim that your beliefs are faith, there is not much I can do."

No dear its not the case. I will try to consult what you suggest. Depends on getting time. Judgment is always mine.

I had been a Christian and feel that I am a muslim after studying Quran.
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western-civilisation.com
written by Craig Read , August 18, 2012
Don't forget Sura 18 which says that the Sun sets in a Muddy marsh, or the other verses you will find putting Mary the mother of Jesus contemporaneously with Moses; or stating that King David was a Moslem; or indeed Noah was a Moslem, the former 1600 years before Mad Moh created his nonsense; and the latter from the ending of the last ice age. It is absurd that anyone would make the claim that the Koran is 'rational' or even a religious document. 1600 verses of hate speech populate the work. Most of the rest is about enslaving yourself to Mad Moh and the One or Al-Lah [Mad Moh's alter ego of course]. No free will, no rationality, no inquiry. Islam comes out of the Bronze Age. Read Sumerian and Babylonian theology and 'laws' for more info.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 18, 2012
Craig Read. You write " Don't forget Sura 18 which says that the Sun sets in a Muddy marsh".

It does not say sun sets in muddy marsh. I rather says 'he found sun hiding in muddy marsh. May I give the translation of the verse 18:86 under criticism.

"Until, when he reached (بلغ) the setting of the sun, he found it (وجدها) hiding in a spring of murky water (تغرب في عين): Near it (the water) he found (ووجد عندها) a People: We said: "O Dhul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

Arabic word تغرب is not used for setting it is used for hiding as you will see in verse 10:61

وَمَا تَكُونُ فِي شَأْنٍ وَمَا تَتْلُو مِنْهُ مِن قُرْآنٍ وَلَا تَعْمَلُونَ مِنْ عَمَلٍ إِلَّا كُنَّا عَلَيْكُمْ شُهُودًا إِذْ تُفِيضُونَ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَا يَعْزُبُ عَن رَّبِّكَ مِن مِّثْقَالِ ذَرَّةٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَا فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَا أَصْغَرَ مِن ذَٰلِكَ وَلَا أَكْبَرَ إِلَّا فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ

"Nor is hidden (و ما يعزب) from thy Lord so much as the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven....".

At some other place Quran says that sun is continuously moving.
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lies and tall tales
written by Yibel , August 19, 2012
Reed Wilson, you never were a Christian by your own admission. You worshiped something (a statue?) called a Virgin Mary which came to your house on wheels and you paid money for this. Christianity has no such idols - NO IDOLS, at all - unlike Islam which has a sacred stone which is worshiped.

Has it ever occured to you that in sura 18, Muhammad's stone-gawd is actually talking to a pagan - Dhul-Qarnayn (Alexander, the Great) was a worshipper of the Greek war god Mars - among others? Why would Muhammad's stone-gawd talk to this pagan? And why didn't Muhammad's stone-gawd give Dhul-Qarnayn a holy book? Why did Allah wait 900 years to send his/ITS warning when he/IT seemed to like Dhul-Qarnayn so much that IT actually spoke directly to Dhul-Qarnayn?

And The Sun Also Rises in the east "upon a people whom WE (Muhammad's gods Ar-Rahman/Ar-Raheem the Babylonian god of thunder, Al-Wahid, The One, The Unique and A-l-Muqtadir, The Determiner) exposed to its flaming rays." According to the Qur'an, Dhu'l-Qarnayn traveled on a road that took him to the east where the sun rises and burns people's skins because Muhammad's god put them to close to the sun's flaming rays! Qur'an 18:89 Then, according to the Qur'an, Dhu'l-Qarnayn dammed up a whole valley with red hot iron blocks covered with molten brass.

As the people said at the time - Nothing but tall tales! Muhammad even wrote "All this is written in earlier scriptures; the scriptures of Ibraham and Musa." Quran 87:19 What a crock!!!
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also...
written by bundypig , August 20, 2012
I found this in an article, seems like koran is wrong yet again haha, such losers

"Muslims from half a millennium after Muhammad reinterpret the passage because they know that, taken at face value, Surah 18:86 is obviously false. Science forced them to abandon the perfect clarity of the Quran. Science forced them to throw out a Sahih narration from the Hadith. Science forced them to commit innovation."
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Mohammed was a GREAT deceiver
written by burke , August 20, 2012
Mohammed's nonsense was so contradictory, he never assembled it or published it...it was always being modified as required by changing circumstances...do we want Jews to believe in 'us'? So, we will pray to Jerusalem! Did the Jews denounce 'us' and hurt 'our' feelings? So, we will pray to a rock in Mecca!

Mohammed realized he was a con artist and this wicked trickster knew the only way to keep the Arabs following him was to threaten them with murder, bribe them with booty and hide the evidence of his manipulations.
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abc
written by Kaser , August 21, 2012
I appreciate one of the comments you made above.

You mention that second generation mulsims will get higher education. Indeed, I believe you are right.

Now, when these young muslims get educated, and start forming their own opinions, what will happen? Young muslims in Islamic states, madrassa-educated are forbidden to form their own opinions. They are brainwashed that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND MOHAMMED IS HIS PROPHET - no place to argue. If you do not agree, you are an apostate and marked for death.

Now back to the western-ecucated muslims. Those born in the west. Take the women... They will see in the western culture respect for women, respect for other religions. But Islam will try to teach them to reject western values? Reject freedom? Reject equality between men and women?

Western-born muslim girls will bring down the sect in the West. Only by maintaining an influx of first generation muslims will the sect prolong it's survival.

Give it time, it will fall, as all other opressive ideologies have fallen in the We only have to resist and make sure we protect these young women, and e hordes of young men also wanting freedom from this opressive cult.

Cheers,
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 21, 2012
Yibel. You write "Using the word "lady" when referring to a third part who is not present is a compliment provided the person is female".

It often happens Yibel on internet where we dont know each other. I am mainly concerned with your thought and not what genitalia you are carrying.

Clement says he is sure that Aisha Ahmad is a female. I asked how was he so sure, he did not tell.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 21, 2012
Yibel. You write " Reed Wilson, you never were a Christian by your own admission. You worshiped something (a statue?) called a Virgin Mary which came to your house on wheels and you paid money for this."

Everyone, except me, thought I was Christian. I searched for Christianity in I ni Christo then in Quran.

You are not guiding me to the real Christianity. Are you a Christian who thinks Jesus died on cross for sins of others. He was only son of God and he is God?

"Has it ever occurred to you that in sura 18, Muhammad's stone-gawd is actually talking to a pagan - Dhul-Qarnayn (Alexander, the Great) was a worshipper of the Greek war god Mars - among others?

No Sir.

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