www.islam-watch.org

Geert made his point clearly. The only thing he assumed not correctly is the word truth. The truth doesn't exist as an absolute given. It changes every minute because it is bound to movement (time). What today is the truth, might be a lie tomorrow. For the most muslims who do not no what's written weather it happened or not, find Wilders offensive because they truly believe he is lying about islam. The most muslims in the Netherlands are former north-africans, people from turkey and other countries who are not familiar with the 7th century islam. On daily basis i hear how great the prophet was and what i ask them if they actually read the story themself, they deny this and say it is a fact that he was a great man. They are ignorant because they haven't seen/read the sources themself, so they keep spreading the lies about the greatness of islam. It may the truth to us but to others it might be lies.

On the other hand, a lot of dutch people agree with him about the ideology, but they don't like his tactics. For instance. Geert made himself look very stupid when he wanted to tax the headcovering as used by muslim women. Again people (Dutch people) start to make jokes about him and that he is loosing it. He must stay focus on ideology. All others concepts weakenes him and his PVV.

god help us in the west from the muslim invasion for further information and see the truth reveald
www.fatherzakaria.com


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The Episodes
Audio
Video

01- Doctrine of Trinity

02- Is the Trinity doctrine essential?

03- Why is Trinity only found in Christianity?

04- Why say Trinity instead of One God?

05- Who is Christ in Christianity?

06- How is Christ the Incarnated Word of God?

07- How is Christ the manifestation of God in flesh?

08- How does Christ in Christianity differ from Christ in Islam?

09- What is God's Plan to Save Mankind?

10- The Christ crucifixion and the Godly plan

11- God’s justice and mercy and the concept of redemption

12- The Concept of Redemption in the Bible and Quran

13- The prerequisites of the Redeemer

14- Answering challenges of the Christ crucifixion

15- Was the Holy Bible falsified?

16- Answering the verses claiming falsification of the Taurât

17- The Quran verses attesting for the veracity of the Holy Bible

18- Testimony of the Islamic scholars for Nihility of the Holy Bible Falsification

19- Did the Quran abrogate the Holy Bible?

20- The Abrogation in the Quran

21- The concept of abrogation

22- Examples of the Abrogation

23- The Abrogation- Number of verses

24- The abrogation – what was lost of the Quran

25- The graveness of abrogation

26- The abrogation – references and scholars opinions

27- The Concept of Revelation in Christianity and Islam

28- The Proof of Revelation in Islam and Christianity

29- Assembly of the Quran

30- The Codices of the Holy Bible and the Quran

31- Answering the challenge of Ezekiel 23

32- Answering the Challenge of Song of the Songs

33- Answering the challenge of Ahaziah’s age And the Christ Son of God

34- Christianity and wine.

35- Christianity and The wars – Multiplicity of wives

36- Characters of the True Messenger

37- Muhammad with the great ethics and assassination of his opponents

38- The Wars of Muhammad

39- The wives of the messenger

40- The stature of woman in Islam and Christianity

You wrote:"The only thing he assumed not correctly is the word truth. The truth doesn't exist as an absolute given. It changes every minute because it is bound to movement (time)." What do you mean that there is no absolute truth? So there is no absolute lie too. For what purpose are our courts established? Is it not to established the truth and judge rightly.You amaze me. Why not asked what is truth? like Pilate who crucified Jesus asked Him.Truth is the basis of meanful relationship among humana and their God.Truth is what your concience cannot deny except if your concience is fed with lies.My friend truth exist and is absolute. I thought you are among those who know that Islam as a religion is false. That is the truth about Islam. Cheers.

'Know the truth and the truth will set you free'...Free from what? Free from the truth...'truth' is the result of accumulated reality/karma, which is not always pleasant.
Truth is what binds you...especially Mulims...In order to be free, you have to break the chains of truth...Always tell YOURSELF the truth, and do what is right...Right action sooner or later brings right results...Freedom from truth is immediately available to Muslims...It's called 'apostasy'...Do it today...

I hope this comment is posted on your web page, you who speak of freedom, what freedom do you want? Is it the freedom were you drink until you are intoxicated and go around killing people? Or is it the freedom that allows your website to insult and harass other faiths and religions? Have you not read the saying of Imam Ali (p.b.u.h.):"Whoever battles truth, truth will put them into a state of epilepsy".Islam is TRUTH.

I am not against Christianity but what PROPER muslims ( who respect,understand and don't physically or verbally insult other religions) question and only question about Christianity is how can God have a son? And why was it Jesus not Adam ? Adam didn't have a father!? Wasn't Adam's condition more extraordinary? I have a right to question.

2 Clement,

There is no absolutness whatsoever. There is only reality and this indeed can be painfull. There is nothing to understand Clement, everything is relative/bound to time and space. The only right thing you said is that there is no absolute lie. The only thing that''s absolute as we experience it are the laws of nature. Only my opinion.

Why don't Muslims give freedom to others to practise their religion? Why should Islam be the only religion on earth? A few people may drink and kill under intoxication which is negligible compared to the number being killed by those who are intoxicated by religion. BTW your name su*gests you are a woman. So you don't mind being branded as brainless and as half of a man by your Quran. Do You? You don't mind stop feeding your hungry baby to satisfy your horny husband? Do You? How many ignominies would you like to suffer? Finally you don't even go to heaven (if at all there is a place like that). That much for women defending Islam. High time you realised that women are equal to men. God after all ,if there, must be a woman for men neither can give birth nor know the art of protecting a child nor are capable of giving unconditional love like mother. Because the earlier man was physically more powerful than women he made up God to be male and made women believe that lie. Open your eyes defy your religion and follow the rule that doing good is virtue and harming others is sin.

You are welcome. Since I post a challengeto you I never saw your comment. Here you come again with respect to other religions. why should you respect that which is not worthy of respect. Does Islam or Mohammed respect you as a woman? why should continue to worship a god or prophets that has no regards for you and does not value your life. If you read your Quran carefully you will discover that no where did Allah say He loves you as a woman, not to talk love to me as an unbeliever. Where in the quran did this god say he loves me? He only boasted how he hates me and want his jihadist to kill me so that they can go to his paradise and continue copulating with virgins. Have you ever asked as a woman what will be your reward in the Islamic paradise? Apart from being the sex slave to your husband among the heavenly virgins. Why should you have respect for such a religion? You want me to respect such a delusional faith as true?. God forbid bad thing. Mallama Fatimah please use your God given brain to come out of such cult belief system call Islam. And stop defending the indefendable. You cannot rationally defend Islam. Respecting other religions will not save you from the bondage of Islam untill you come out. Regards.

From Fatimah above...only question about Christianity is how can God have a son?

That is a good question, another is how is it that Allah had no son, but has three daughters?

Allah says he has no son, while YHVH says he has one and is proud of him...
This is either two different god's, or the one god is confused...

This c*nt is dumber than saladhead and nader combined
I would like to see her answer any of the questions about being a woman in islime.
1/2 a man, a sex object, ...even a'isha said that mo had made the women equal to the dogs and asses.
Wake up to yourself, if you don't think that there is a problem with your ideology, why are you even here in this blog?
You can NEVER defend what islime is doing around the world every minute of every day, murder, honour killings, forced conversions, taxes on the *people of the book*, the list of evil is endless.

@Mo-Suck,

Relax, she just asked a question in a polite way and noone answered her questions yet. I really would appreciate it when we try to kick the ball, not the person. Thank you.

@Fatima
The question is how could God has a son. It seems illogical, but this is the revelation that is stated in the Bible. Christianity, like any other religion, bases its doctrine on what is believed to be the revelation of God. In many cases, the so called divine revelation could not be understood by human senses. Jesus as the son of God is certainly cannot defined to match biological frame, instead it is a theological revelation. We believe Jesus is the son of God because the Bible says so. If you say you cannot understand, so ask the Lord why he made the revelation that way. Many Christians cannot understand either, how Islamic doctrine regarding the paradise is so much colored by sex. A martyr will gain 70 virgins who even do not have menstruation. Irrational but this is what you believe. My question is the same like yours, how could the glorious heaven be like a brothel to meet the needs of human lust? As you are a women - I presume so because you state your name as Fatima - the next question is, if a martyr man to be rewarded with 70 virgins, what is the reward for martyr women? Don't you have any right to be rewarded with 70 macho men? So my advise, let us discuss un-proper practices of religions not doctrines, because all doctrines are based on divine revelation which very often do not meet human logic.

@Ary,

I totally agree with you. It''s true because someoe believe in it, not because it is reality. Therefor we always must say we believe that....and never it is. Very Good point: let us discuss un-proper practices of religions not doctrines.

How stupid can a woman be? But then the possibility exists that lady Fatima the abayamama is not stupid but ignorant concerning her beloved bogus prophet Muhammad, a mass murderer (between 600 and 900 Banu Quraiza men), a paedophile (marriage of six year old Aisha and raping her when she was nine), robber and extortionist (the case of Ukaydir ibn Abdu'l Malik, whose brother Hasan was killed by Muhammad's killers,robbed of his expensive gown, obliged to pay ransom in order to be set free), a killer of a mother and poetess Asmaa bint Marwaan and Umm Qirfa Fatima, a respected and influential old lady. A person who licks the feet of the filthy criminal Abu'l Qasim Muhamad ibn Abd'allah has no right to criticize a free, secular society. She should stay in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia (a paradise for her, a filthy hell for me) and enjoy her muhammadan rights there.
How can anybody stays a muhammadan after reading the Qur an, the Sirat Rasul Allah, the sahih hadiths of al Bukhari and Muslim, the Muwatta of Malik ibn Annas, the Sunan of Abu Dawood, the Umdat al Salik wa 'Uddat al-Nasik of Ahmad Ibn Lulu Al-Naqib (Reliance of the Traveller), the Tafsir al Jalalayn of Jalal al-Din al-Mahalli and Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti, etc, etc, etc, is beyond my comprehension but the I am just a stupid kaffir dog, a swine and ape according to the unholy prophet.

So my freedom of speech is being curtailed by you.
I asked questions , about islime and her beliefs?
She can't answer any, to answer her's, fatimah freedom is just that, you do what you want as long as you don't hurt or take away anyone else's freedoms.
To follow a middle age ideology makes you a great person, I think maybe M.e want's to get to know you betta :)
If a girl wants to wear a bikini, that's her right.
And to talk about drunks, how about choudry in G.B, he's a drunkard and a womaniser, yet speaks for most mussies there.
Hypocrites the bunch !
And thanks for your assessment of my post, I don't pull punches, get it?

How can God have a Son? I would answer in return why not? Obviously I can not put myself in to the the mindset of a Muslim but I find myself asking what is so difficult about this concept to the Muslim mind? I don't know any Christians who have a problem believing this. It seems to me that Muslims believe that in order for God to have a Son something must have happened to cause the Son to exist or come in to being. In other words God was alone and after a while something happened that caused Him to have a Son and from that point on God was not alone but existing together with His Son. And the Muslim scratches his head and says to himself, how could this happen? We Christians don't believe that it happened like this. There was no event or happening that brought the Son of God in to being, that is to say the Son of God as He was before He assumed human nature and flesh and came in to the world. We believe the Father and the Son were always "together" with each other: "the Word was God and the Word was with God". Both possessing the divine essence but distinct from each other as two different persons; both conscious of the other person but being one in the divine essence, spirit or Being with the other. To me the term Son in this context can be roughly understood to mean "of the order of". So that the Son is "of the order of" the Father. Adam is the son of God in the same way as Jesus in terms of his human nature. Adam has a human nature in common with Jesus but he does not possess the divine nature nor did he have a pre-existence before his creation as a human being. Jesus pre-existed as the Son of God as a divine Being before he became a human being. His being begotten simply meaning that he became a human being like us; of course in a miraculous way being born of a virgin and without sin and without changing or losing anything that He is as the Son of God. I hope that this imperfect attempt to answer the question "how could God have a Son" is helpful and useful to our Muslim friends who visit this site.

we'll start with what is written in the koran and hadith
koran 4:11the male shall have the equal of the portion of two females (also verse 4:176)
koran 2:282and call to witness, from among your men,2 witnesses. And if 2 men be not found, then a man and 2 women.
koran 2:228 and the men are a degree above them (women)
koran 5:6 and if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey,or one cometh from the closet, or ye had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some (this is even with the shaking of a woman's hand)
koran 24:31 women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye.
koran 4:3 marry women of your choice, two or three or four
koran 53:27 those who believe not in the hereafter, name the angels with female names
koran 4:24 and 33:52 a man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage

then come the hadith
Buk6:301 mo said 'is it not the evidence of two women equal to witness of one man?' *then he continues* 'this is the deficiency in her intelligence'
Buk 6:301 mo said 'isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' the women replied in the affirmative. mo said 'this is a deficiency in her religion'
women comprise the majority of hell's occupants.The only women in heaven mentioned are the virgin sex slaves.
also kanz al 'ummal even su*gests that 99 percent of women go to hell.
Buk 62:81 mo said 'the stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (woman's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract)
Buk 62:58 a woman presents herself to mo, but he does not find her attractive, so he *donates* her on the spot to another man
muslim 4:1039 a'isha said to mo 'you have made us equal to the dogs and asses'
abu dawud 2:704 mo said 'when one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig,a Jew, a magian and a woman cut off his prayer if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stones throw'
abu dawud(2155) women are compared to slaves and camels with regard to the *evil* in them.
ishaq 593 as for ali, he said,'women are plentiful and you can easily change one for another', statement made in front of mo by ali (raised as a son to mo) the 4th caliph without a word of rebuke from mo
ishaq 593 continued 'from the captives of Hunayn mo gave his son in law ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave future caliph uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and umar another' sex objects like party favours me thinks
ishaq 969 'men are to lay injunctions on women lightly, for they were prisoners of men and had no control over their persons'
The islimeic scholar al-ghazali (called by some the greatest mussie after mo) says this about women's role in life 'stay at home and get on with your sewing. She should not go out often, she must not be well-informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbours and only visit them when absolutely necessary; she should take care of her husband...and seek to satisfy him in everything...her sole worry should be her virtue...she should be clean and ready to satisfy her husbands sexual needs at any moment.
mussie's deny the women under shraia from giving equal testimony in court and even have the right to exclude other women from the marriage bed. mussie women are not even allowed to marry outside the faith without being killed by their own families.
So if fatimah thinks this isn't the way to live, I stand corrected, but if she's a mussie like she appears, asking b*llshit questions and such, I stand by my words.

Get it M.e?

Machmoed elchalid you may be correct about truth today becoming a lie tomorrow but what is drivel today will be drivel tomorrow. Hang up the philosopher's cap and don't quit your day job. What an incredible ego you have. Are you really B Hussein Obama, perhaps?

(ANSAmed) - ANKARA - A 12-year-old girl from Corum, a village in central Anatolia not far from Ankara, has been sold twice by her father: the first time in exchange for four cows, and the second time for 10,000 Turkish lire (around 4,800 euros). Just yesterday the police discovered the crime and arrested the girl's father and the second buyer, while the first is still being sought. The story was reported by daily paper Vatan, which writes that Sukru A. (this is the name of the father) sold his daughter K.A last summer when she was just 12 years old to 29-year-old bricklayer Kamber Bostan in exchange for four cows, who married the girl in a religious ceremony in front of the imam. After several months however, the girl - who became pregnant in the meantime - went back home because she didn't get on with her husband. Last December, in her sixth month of pregnancy, she lost the child. Ten days later the father sold her again, this time to a 20-year-old unemployed man, Gokhan Turk, who paid 3,000 out of the 10,000 lire agreed upfront, and took the girl home. Yesterday, when Turk refused to pay the balance - claiming that the girl he bought was not a virgin - Sukru A. turned to the police and reported him for insolvency but without mentioning the reason. After a short investigation the truth came out and both the father and Turk were arrested, while Bostan is still being sought.(ANSAmed).

8-month pregnant woman killed over ‘honour’

KARACHI: An eight-month pregnant woman, 26-year-old Fahima, was allegedly killed by her family in the name of honour on Wednesday. This is the first such incident in the current year.

According to the victim’s husband Gul Zamin, the couple had got married against their families’ wishes and eloped from Swabi to Karachi, where they had been hiding for the last six or seven years in fear of their lives.

According to details, Zamin’s wife and their five-year-old daughter were at their rented house in the slums of Mohammadi Colony when the culprits broke into the house and tortured Fahima; they escaped after stabbing her to death. According to Zamin, the victim’s father and brother - who had arrived in Karachi after a tip-off about Fahima’s presence in the city - were behind the incident.

He suspected that the culprits might have returned to their hometown after murdering his wife. According to Docks police station’s Deputy Superintendent of Police Javed Iqbal Bhatti, the accused had attacked the woman’s head and stomach with an axe and a dagger.

Hello Guys and Fatima,

Lets look at this One God. Yeah it looks appealing when you say there is only one God. Now suppose there is only one God. How would he behave or react or say?
Do you think God gets mad because you are not worshiping him?
Do you think God will take sides in sports, games or even wars?
Do you think God will send plague to kill people?
Do you think God will create earth quake to kill people?
Do you think God will divide Humanity in to two sects?Us and Them.Like Islam does.
Do you think God will curse Humanity?
Do you think God (Muslim)will burn people in hell for ever just because he is not a Muslim?
All these things su*gest one thing. Bible and Koran are manuscripts. Christians accept this and Muslims still think Koran is a word from God and are responsible for everything violence on this earth.
If there is a God , I bet, He will not discriminate between people and will never demand ridiculous things from Humans. I will finish this later. Sorry I have to go now.

good question, my dear, email me This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it '> This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it and i'll give you a very thorough and detailed explanation of the doctrines of the trinity, the nature of god and the nature of man, redemption and why man needs to be redeemed.. if indeed you are sincere in your search for answers :)

Living in Holland and being a Hindu, I can tell you that Wilders isn't against only Muslims but against all non-whites. People who don't know his politics well should read the ideology of Hitler as it is not very different. Wilders wants to get the sympathy vote by bashing Muslims because of the hostility between the Muslims and non-Muslims in this country after the murder of the movie director Van Gogh but that is about it. Wilders's hidden agenda is to cleanse Europe of all non-whites as he doesn't believe in multiculturalism. Do not sign the petition, Wilders is anti-non-whites, not anti-Muslims only.
There are millions of whites in this country and rest of Europe who are utterly racist toward anything and anyone who isn’t white. The veil of democracy and equal rights will be lifted very soon after politicians like Wilders become presidents and prime ministers.
PS: I have nothing against nor in the favour of Muslims as I think the respective community (i.e. Muslims) has a lot to do in regard to its ideology and the preference for violence instead of peace to get their things done.

This Monika is a big, fat liar. It is the tactics of Muslim leadership circles to maligned islamophobes as racist. Islam is not a racial category. It is an imperialist ideology designed to make pure Arabs from the peninsula the rulers of the world.dqy

Well, I am from Holland too and I tell something completely different from Monica.

If she was a politician she would be now on trial as she slanders mister Wilders more viciously than he criticizes Muhammad. And he has good arguments, from the Quran and what Muslims have said and done, whereas she can prove nothing of her allegations in the writings or speeches or actions of Wilders.

The differerence between Hitler and Wilders is much more clearer than the difference between Hitler and Muhammad. As Wilders has never so much as hurt another human being or ever called for violence in his political life. Of course Wilders is very unlike Hitler in regard to Jews, whom Wilders supports, but also he is very unlike Hitler in regard to Muslims as if they were the same to him as Jews were to Hitler. Wilders'dictum is that he is not against Muslims but against Islam. So he is not a racist, whereas Hitler was. This difference between religion and race has been explained here often enough.

Wilders sees a threat to democracy, judeo-Christian and Enlightenment values and wants to save his own "culture". There is not a shred of evidence, there are no clues whatsoever, that he ever wants to do away with democracy as Hitler did and which is presented as probability by Monica. Nor are there any signs that his followers, for which he can't vouch anyway, in any significant numbers want to do away with democracy and equal rights for all. If what she says is right, then # 20 % of the Dutch population are racists, extreme-right?

I was not aware that the Hindustans or Blacks in Holland ever protested against anything Wilders said or did that was considered detrimental, or meant to be, to them.

Monika SOUNDS like a Muslim or leftist who is very opposed and prejudiced against him. Who lies about being a Hindu in order to inflict more damage.

When they don't like what opponents says, such people often give them dishonorable motives, like only wanting to win the votes. Well, Wilders at least wanted them bad enough to risk his life for them! And where are the death-threats and violence of the alleged 20 % racist Dutch population towards the Muslims???

She does sound like a mussie...good on ya Demsci !!!
I signed 2 petitions...Go Geert.
Keep us posted as the trial progresses eh?

Fatima, the proper muslim has only proper questions. She asks, how Christ became son of God whereas Adam is not referred as son of God.
Well, Fatima you won't dispute that Christ had a mother. It is mentioned in Quran also. Virgin Mary became pregnant and delivered Christ in due course. How Mary got pregnant? In Quran at one place it is said that Allah said ' let it happen' and lo, Mary is pregnant. At another place it is said that Allah whistled and Mary got pregnant. Either way, Quran testifies that Mary got pregnant by Allah's direct action and not by any sexual activity by any male. Now, since Mary is Christ's mother, what is wrong if we call the person who impregnated her the father, in this case the God, as christians beleive? The logic is simple. Since a mother is there, a father also should be there. Now, is it not clear why Adam is not considered as son of God? Simple. He doesnot have a mother. In the broader sense christians beleive that God is the heavenly father and all human beings are his children. But according to Mohammed, the 7th century desert pirate who established Islam, his God Allah is the master and all human beings are his slaves. You know only this equation and that is why you cannot comprehend why christians call Christ, the son of God. Is it clear to you now?

In your post you claim that you are a proper muslim who respects and understands other religions and physically or verbally not insulting them. As far as I know, Quran unequivocally proclaims that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allah and the duty of a muslim is to eradicate all other religions. In this context, if you respect other religions, how can you be called a proper muslim, I wonder. You are a bad muslim, I should say.

I am a believer of the true belief, a follower and a worshipper of the believe called:
Amsterdam Football Club AjaX!
All who denounce Him shall be strikken by the hand of AjaX!
It's a fact: The koran is like Mein Kampf, it's a fact. Therefore he cannot be condemned by judges!
Geert, keep up the good work!

@ Demsci Your answer to Monika, probably a muslim masquerading as a Hindu is a better one than mine. My thanks and compliments. Freedom of speech forever.
Uw antwoord op Monika, waarschijnlijk een muslim vermomd als een Hindu is beter dan de mijne. Hiervoor mijn dank en complimenten. Vrijhheid van meningsuiting voor altijd.

@Gay Macher,

Funny!

Fatima, I am going through your post once again. Your ignorance baffles me. What is freedom in your opinion? Drinking, getting intoxicated and in the aftermath killing or committing some crime are not uncommon in democratic countries. If anybody commits a crime as a result of drinking or otherwise, the law enforcing state machinery is there to book them and punish them. In a democracy you can also air your opinions freely, express your dissent if any, and choose your ruler fearlessly as a matter of right as a citizen. All these things are totally alien to the muslims in Islamic countries. Why? The 7th century desert pirate of Arabia who established Islam didnot know of these things and if at all he knew anything of this sort, he didnot allow it during his lifetime and masquerading as the last and most beloved prophet of Allah, decreed against these things in his scripture called Quran. According to Allah, most of the people are unintelligent and have no brains. May be this is true about muslims only. Most of the Kuffr people are intelligent and the progress of the world is a testimony to their intelligence and they more or less lead a peaceful life. Only muslims are living in chaos and it is their own making. That is why democracy is not seen in any Islamic country. Autocracy or mullahcracy or military rule is the form of government muslims know or are comfortable with. That is why in Islamic countries other religionists are severely oppressed and persecuted and their number is steadily decreasing. Can you deny this? May be this is your idea of freedom- oppression of women, other religionists etc.etc. On the other hand muslims enjoy all freedom and privileges in any non- muslim country just like any other section of the society. The only difference is their allegiance is to Islam only, not to their country of domicile.
You also accuse this site of insulting other faiths and religions. This is simply not true. The organisers having come to know of the half- truths and untruths being spread in the name of Islam, are exposing it only and they do substantiate it too. They are, in fact, doing a great service to humanity in that respect. They are doing it by simply stating the facts. May be some of the individuals in their posts are insulting Islam. That is as a response to your ie. Islamists' brutalities, double standards and outright non- synchronisation with modernity etc. Everybody can't think on the same lines, can they? But you conveniently forget another thing. There are muslim sites galore who indulge in mocking other faiths and spreading unsubstantiated lies about other religions. What do you say about it?

You know Chairman Mohammed once asked his people why Allah only has daughters and not sons like Yahweh has a son? Because to him it was not fair for Allah to have only daughters. You remember the famous static verses saga? Right, When he conquered Mecca he had to put the little daughters of Allah to the sward and killed them. For him it is better to be childless than for his Allah to have only daughters. Are you sure Fatimah is not being jealous that Allah was bereaved of his children and not even a son to inhere it his creation like Yahweh. Allah has to curse his partner Mohammed and the principal suspects of the murder case of his daughters and he too could not sired a male child. I pity them.
Now on a more serious note .There are steps to be taken to understand the concept of the son ship of Christ. In deed the Bible says he is the second Adam but without sin. The first step to understanding Jesus as the Son of God is for Fatimah to first of all know him as the Messiah and Saviour, her sin bearer as prophesied by Isaiah, Daniel, Zechariah, the prophets of God from the Old Testament. Secondly she must know him as the word of God and the Spirit of God made flesh and dwelled among men but lived a sinless life. Thirdly God will miraculously give the revelation of His son to her. When step one and two are taken by faith and the revelation of Christ sonship did not follow then she should call me for clarification write me through This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it '> This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it . Cheers

the history of our 'genuine' Bibles is a convoluted one. Firstly we cannot be sure that we have the full version as it was originally intended. In 1415 the Church of Rome took an extraordinary step to destroy all knowledge of two second century Jewish books that it said contained the true name of Jesus Christ. The Antipope Benedict XIII firstly singled out for condemnation a secret Latin treatise called "Mar Yesu" and then issued instructions to destroy all copies of the book of Elxai. The Rabbinic fraternity once held the destroyed manuscripts with great reverence for they were comprehensive original records reporting the life of Rabbi Jesus.


On 21 June, the day of the Summer Solstice, (and under those cult conditions) a total of 2048 "presbyters, deacons, sub-deacons, acolytes and exorcists" gathered at Nicaea to decide what Christianity really was, what it would be, what writings were to be used and who was to be it's God.

Ancient church evidence established that a new 'god' was to be approved by the Roman Emperor and an earlier attempt (circa 210) to deify either Judas Khrestus or his twin brother Rabbi Jesus (or somebody else) had been 'declined'. Therefore, as late as 325, the Christian religion did not have an official god.


Following the original example set by the deification of Caesar, their funerals were dramatized as the scene of their resurrection and immortality. All these godly attributes passed as a legal right to Emperor Constantine's new deity, Jesus Christ.

The Emperor then instructed Bishop Eusebius to compile a uniform collection of new writings "bound together as one" using the stories from the large collection of Presbyters as his reference source. Eusebius was to arrange for the production of "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in the art". This was the first mention of finished copies of a Christian 'New Testament' in the history of mankind.

As one can imagine, to condense the real life of the Jesus Christ, the Church and His teachings with supporting evidence into a short article is very difficult. It is therefore wise for those who wish to have supportable evidence to read and study Tony Bushby's epic work, The Bible Fraud, along with it's detailed blood lines (family trees) and over 869 references. (see www.thebiblefraud.com)

However, attempting to summarize what Tony has written..... in 325 AD, the first Christian council was called at Nicaea to bring the stories of twin brothers, Jesus 'the Rabbi' and Judas Khrestus into one deity that we now know as Jesus Christ. Tony says they were not born of virgin birth but to Nabatean Arab Mariamne Herod (now known as the Virgin Mary) and fathered by Tiberius ben Panthera, a Roman Centurion. The brothers were raised in the Essene community and became Khrists of their faith. Rabbi Jesus later was initiated in Egypt at the highest of levels similar to the 33rd degree of Freemasonry of which many Prime ministers and Presidents around the world today are members. He then later married three wives, one of whom we know as a Mary Magdalene, a Druidic Princess, stole the Torah from the temple and moved to Lud, now London.

Tony believes the reason Jesus stole the Torah was that he said it contained "a very special secret", which he was going to reveal that secret to the world. He was stoned to death and the Torah taken from him before he could.

It was probable that Rabbi Jesus' earlier initiation into both the Essene and Druid schools played a major part in his acceptance into the Egyptian school. The Druids could claim a very early origin and the essence of their wisdom was also that of the Essenes. In the case of the Essenes, it is possible to show that their movement was specifically established to preserve secret information, for they knew and used the sacred writing of the Initiates. The full meaning of the point being made by Bushby is that in the case of all Secret Schools, the inner and ultimate Mystery was revealed only to a High Initiate.

Those who were initiated into the Ancient mysteries took a solemn oath never to reveal what had passed within the sacred walls. Every year only a comparatively few Egyptian initiations were conducted, and the number of persons who knew their secrets was never at any time large. The initiations always took place with the onset of darkness and the candidate was entranced for periods of varying length, depending upon the level of the degree for which he had entered.


The New Testament recorded that this happened to Rabbi Jesus who "was led into the desert.... and he fasted forty days and forty nights" (Matt. 4:1-2).

These initiations were not limited to Egypt. The ancient civilizations inherited these Mysteries from a remote antiquity and they constituted part of a primitive revelation from the gods to the human race. Almost every people of pre-Christian times possessed its institution and tradition of the mysteries. The Romans, the Druids of Britain, the Greeks, the Cretans, the Syrians, the Hindus, the Persians, the Maya and the American Indians, among others, had corresponding temples and rites with a system of graduated illuminations for the initiates.

The modern world knows little of these ancient rites yet they were conducted in a huge variety of buildings the world over.

The 'Towers' that are found throughout the East in Asia were directly connected with the Mystery-initiations. The candidates for initiation were placed in them for three days and three nights, whenever there was no temple with a subterranean crypt close at hand.

In this aspect of the initiatory procedure, Tony points out a direct Gospel parallel with Rabbi Jesus saying, "After three days I shall rise again", for he knew the finishing process he was to undertake would take three days being a symbol of the period of time required to complete a condition of development. The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic texts speak of an initiate as 'twice-born', and he was permitted to add to his name the words 'he who has renewed his life', so that on some ancient tomb-inscriptions archaeologists still discover these phases descriptive of the spiritual status of the deceased person.

So little did the later Gospel writers understand the initiatory process that they never perceived they were developing a story that included a Rabbi's (and Arch Druid of Britain) experience in an Egyptian Mystery School.

Jewish tradition invariably asserted that Rabbi Jesus learned 'magic' in Egypt. Bushby says the kernel of this persistent accusation may perhaps be reduced to the simple historical element that Rabbi Jesus went to Egypt and returned with far wider and more enlightened views than those of his former religious associates.

Now, I'm sure that many of you are having trouble grasping some of the ideas presented in this article and I congratulate you on taking the effort to read this far. We all need to demand our local Church, the Church scholars, theologians and media make an open examination of the evidence compiled in Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud. It may rattle some core beliefs but what is more important to you . the truth or what sits comfortably because it's what you've known all you life?

I leave you with a quote from one of the conspirators

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us." Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Why are you using heretical teachings which you know are fables and focklore to disprove a dynamic faith like Christianity? Like paul said I am not ashame of the gospel of Christ because is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes. Christianity has passed the level you are trying to operate in. The early church grew withwout taking to any arm because of the power of God behide the faith and so it is even today. The faith is not based only on writings or books writen by people but by experiencing in a personal way with the divine. So whatever someone says in a book or did cannot have effect or over rule the reality of a personal relationship with God almighty. That is where Christianity has an edge over Islam which solely depended on a book full of contradictions without context or chronology and full of fables and focklore passed to humanity as scripture without divine power to back it up. It is not the book but the power behind the book that makes the different. Even if the world suceed in burning all copies of the Bible there is something that cannot be taking that is the power of God in the believer which link him up with heaven.The muslim cannot boast of any spiritual power other than meanighless,ritualistic and repetitive pagan ceremonies and abolusions that goes perpetually in the muslim life without power to overcome sin, sickness and satan. In fact Chairman Mohammed said satan circulate in a muslim like blood in his life. So my friend Machmoed all these copy and pest will have no real effect in the experience of a real Child of God. Cheers

Dear Clement,

Before accusing me, i just use what there has been researched. It maybe is painfull, but in your words..it is the truth, according to history. See a great book called 'the bible fraud'. It's mindopening and i'm sure you will learn some of it. We are here to debate islam and it's fallacies. Let's do so. To me you're lying, like nuzzies do about their God. Let's debate rationally. This is what people will wake up, not believing in great deal of dogma's before understanding the source/God. We all agree that there might be a god and we all agree that people see this energy different. Don't act like christianity is 'the truth'. It might be a truth but never the truth, omly to believers. So why give people a distortion view, why not mention all the fallacies great scholars and scientists have discovered through centuries. Why always choose the dogmatic way when there are a lot of rational ways to understand.

For your information: I'm not the only one who's tired of long postings about winning souls. Not everybody knows what you're talking about and not every apostate needs a faith in angels, demons and Gods. Why would an apostate choose for an institute. All you need is what you got at birth, the rest is imagination.

I'm sorry Clement, but i can't stand the lies and i actually don't care who's telling them. Did you know there are at least as much as christians who become muslims as muslims become christians. So christians who become muslims didn't understand the real christianity, you'll say. Again we see that former christians did not understand what you trying to explain to us!

Can you post posting about the evilness of islam without referring to the Bible or Jesus (becuase of it's subjectivness). You see...it makes our effort to convince others of the fallacies of islam easier. I'm not telling you can't/mustnt believe what you believe and you certainly don't have to feel ashamed for your believings. Again and again i will say: this is not the platform for it.

I don't understand his taking up with fatimah and then spewing about Christianity, she's the evil one, you can go about reciting verses that are no longer taken as *gospel* as the way of Christianity, like many from the old testament, but realize that the koran is practiced in it's entirety around the world today, causing so much horror and heartbreak.
The moderate mussie holds the hands and feet, the jihadist cuts off the head.

Mo-suck,
Like a lot of people told here, it’s pathetic to see christians complaining about muslims who won’t use their brain and telling that islam is all a lie….but when someone tells that christianity is a fraud and it never happened as the church told us wich became common knowledge, then christians are wining and complaining that christianity is not that bad. It might be true, but why use something that is not considered as the truth/reality by the most educated people. So it remains just a believe…and we’re not talking about believing now do we. We know islam is a lie…we don’t just believe so and yes i know that christianity is a way to understand the source, but reality is different. Actually you believe the same crap muslims do. Not litteraly ofcourse but both choose to not use the brain. We all know it is impossible to walk on water. We all know it is impossible to Maria to bear a child without a human father and we all know from jewish scriptures that Maria wasn’t a virgin but an unmarried women the word used in the OT is Malha and Malha my friend doesn’t mean virgin but unmarried. When we all know that Maria was raped by a roman soldier according to jewish scriptures. This is why jews never will accept the lie that Jeshu ben panthera/jeshu ben miriam is God. They know the story wich christians used to create a new way of living. They rejected the law as it was believed in judaism and used Jesus/God to do so.
You want to convince others? Ok but why use other lies to reach your goal when there are rational ways to achieve this? I’m afraid the goal of christians is to win souls, not the truth/reality as we know it today.

Don't use dogma's like son of God. Some ignorant people stating well why can't god have a son? a better question is why, not why not. Did he need some of his creation when he created all this...No! Is he not the almighty that a creation is needed to help his creation?

Why do you close your eyes and other senses simply because someone told you that the good fruits you have seen was from the same tree that produces the bitter fruits that you have seen. Can a good tree both produce bitter fruits and sweet fruits? The good fruits of Christianity as evidence all over the world cannot be from the same source with Islam.If Islam is a lie Christianity cannot be a lie. Is a simple logic.But your problem is that some schoolers told you that Christianity came from the same source of lie as Islam which is impossible.Since these books you are reading don't seem to guide you rightly why not leave them and look inward to your God given senes and conciences to discover which of these teachings agrees with your natural self desires and aspiration. It will amaze you to discover that only the Bible answers your inner yearnings. You want to be loved, cared for,you want to be free to express your self and make choice as you like, you don.t want to be cheated belittled,abused or molested in short what you want is love. That is exactly what the Bible say God is. That is the center of the Bible message which agrees with your natural self not books. The Bible says the Kingdom of God is within you. Sometimes it amazes me when inteligent people like you put their brain in a cooler and begin to act irrationally. Doesnt nature teaches you that a spring of water cannot yeild better and sweet water at the time? But why do you have to disregard the sweetness of the fruits Christianity all over the world and insist that it was all built on lies.The love, the care, the sacrifice of Christians, the blessings, the prosperity, all are result of lies that was believed on initially? Please use your brain especially the reasoning side. Regards

Clement,

Whats so hard to understand. The bible has it's uses and it encourages people to do good, in qoran there are also those verses wich preech good. But that's not what i'm telling you. I'm telling you that stories, even if they are very good, has nothing to do with the source. There isn't a single word in bible that wasn't known before. The most sayings of Jesus are very old and were mentioned far before JC by other great thinkers and other systems. There is nothing unique in christianity. I wish you knew this. I'm not interested in dogma's...to me it's the evidence that this God is fooling us.

Since these books you are reading don't seem to guide you rightly.

You see Clement. This sort of postings are rubbish because you think roads are made to achieve something. In my humble opinion there isn't such as the right way, and roads are also made to travel. These books are not the elements wich make me not believe in dogma's. It is myself and the God (in me) who took me and showed me all the fallacies. When i read those books, it showed me i was right all along. I feel the source everyday Clement but i won't tell people it is the right God, all i can say, it is my God and noone has to believe in this God because it's mine. The real answer about God is: we don't know for sure and noone does, only in their minds.

You said "The real answer about God is: we don't know for sure and noone does, only in their minds." Do you know that all this time we being rubbing minds on faith and belief I don't really know where you belong. Are you an atheist, Agnostic, Humanist, Free thinker, Where do you really belong? But you talk here like an Agnostic. You don't believe we human can know God. But that is the essence of the revelation of the Bible that we can know God in a personal way and even in a corporate sense if we take the Bible as standard of morality in our life not our individual self righteousness which contradict the standard he set in the Bible. What do you think God is doing by coming to dwell in our inner consciousness by His spirit for? It is so that we can know Him. It is pity that you have not gotten that experience; you would have known what I am telling you. My friend you can know God But I am afraid the way you are going about it I doubt if you can know him.
The first step to know God is to appreciate the good observable things you see happening around you and note the bad ones too that is the beginning of knowing God. But if you cannot distinguish between good and evil it is difficult to know God. The Bible says that God is a Spirit and those that will worship him will do it in spirit and in truth. If the Spirit that dwells in you also dwells in me then we have a common spirit and a common God. Your God become mind and mind yours. This is the oneness and unity of God. That is why we know that the spirit that inspired the Quran is different from the one that inspired the Bible because one is good the other is evil. And if you cannot distinguish between good and evil that is too bad. Truly there is another spirit though, different only knows evil and makes you do even though you would naturally want to do good, it compel you to always do evil that is another spirit called the spirit of Satan but let not confuse you. However, the point I am making here is that it is possible to know God and is still knowable even today. Let me know if you want to know God.

The first step to know God is to appreciate the good observable things you see happening around you and note the bad ones too that is the beginning of knowing God.

Yes i noticed like darwin noticed it and like Einstein noticed it. The real source is different. I don't believe God needs worship Clement. You don't have to do anything in order to be good. In order to do good is not to do bad things and again it's a distinguishment of the humankind, not God...that's all there is. When we see muslims do bad things, we say it is wrong to believe Allah told you that. For us it really doesn't matter who told the believers what they believe...we only focus on bad practices. You can't sell any religion as the whole truth Clement, because it isn't. Yes there might be God and yes the gospel can help finding this deity, but frankly you don't have to find God. God will find you if you want and will enlighten you in a different way than bible claims. Clement, why can't you believe that i found God when i was a child..you see Clement, i have been dead and after 10 ours, the source woke me up again. The grave was already set and if the source didn't wake me in time, i wouldn't be here talking to you. I knew God before religions told me anything about God. I'm searching for the truth/reality by studying the laws of the source like the real god has directed me en direct me since all my life.

that all this bickering about Christians, atheists etc are tearing us away from the problem at large, which is islam.
If you don't agree with clement, just scroll by his posts and pay no attention.
I see that you now are comparing yourself with Darwin and Einstein, what makes them the experts in anything except their chosen fields?
Robert Oppenheimer, when he saw the first atomic bomb, said "and Shiva opens his third eye"
I have no beef with you or anybody (cept mussies) here. We all as Christians, Atheists, Hindus, Buddists, Roman Catholic have bigger fish to fry, rather than getting on each other.
Peace out dude :)

@ Mo-Suck,
We have already ended the discussion. You have to know that muslims if they come by this site and they see postings like what we talking about they might get the idea that it's about christianity versus islam and they won't debate us but as you know it isnt about christianity so why mention it. It's a pschycological thing. A lot of people on this site agree with me that it's not about christianity. If we want to fry the big fish, the best way to do this, is not to mention dogma's because that's what hostiges muslims. They are trapped by the verses of the Qoraan. We first have to convince them to get rid of those dogma's by reason, not other dogma's. I really believe this is the fastest way. Thank you though!