www.islam-watch.org

To provide enough food during the Fasting Month of Ramadan, muslim countries are importing millions of tons of meat and sugar and livestock even from starving Somalia where the Islamists are preparing for more violent attacks during the Holy Month in order to drive all peace and freedom loving people out of the country. The average muslim has nothing to do with this because he will watch Ramadan Soaps all day while waiting fpr the breakfast dinner. The economies down by half and the hospitals full of people fainting and collapsing because of dehydration. All the same every year. Ramadan, here we come!

"....to the initiation of Jihad for the independence of Pakistan (1946-47) --- were all conducted in sacred Ramadan."

There was no Jihad for independence of Pakistan. The war or freedom of India movement was fought by Indians including Hindus and Muslims. for

The Great Buana. You have beautifully summed up Ramzan in a 3-sentenced paragraph.

"To provide enough food during the Fasting Month of Ramadan....".

Why more food and where Jihad? I give what is prescribed in Quran:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الصِّيَامُ كَمَا كُتِبَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

"Believers, fasting has been made mandatory for you as it was made mandatory for the people before you, so that you get disciplined. Fasting is for numbered days. One who is sick or on a journey has to fast the same number of days at another time. Those who can afford a redemption should feed a poor person. Good deeds performed on one's own initiative will be rewarded. However, fasting is better and will be rewarded. Would that you knew this! The month of Ramadan is the month in which the Quran was revealed; a guide for the people, the most authoritative of all guidance and a criteria to discern right from wrong. Anyone of you who knows that the month of Ramadan has begun, he must start fasting. Those who are sick or on a journey have to fast the same number of days at another time. God does not impose any hardship upon you. He wants you to have comfort so that you may complete the fast, glorify God for His having given you guidance, and that, you be grateful to Him (2:183-85)

If above followed, the economies will not down by half and the hospitals will not be full of people fainting and collapsing because of dehydration.

Your concern is commendable.

"Believers, fasting has been made mandatory for you as it was made mandatory for the people before you, so that you get disciplined.

Ramadan fasting is not fasting, and requires no particular discipline...How much personal discipline does it take to miss lunch?

Military training does require discipline, studying for a degree requires discipline...Missing lunch does not...Allah's idea of discipline is weak to say the least...

God does not impose any hardship upon you. He wants you to have comfort so that you may complete the fast, glorify God for His having given you guidance, and that, you be grateful to Him (2:183-85)

If 'God' wrote this, why is he referring to himself as if he were not himself? This sounds suspiciously like Mohammad talking...If not Allah is incoherent...

There was no Jihad for independence of Pakistan.

The movement for the Muslim homeland of Pakistan was led by the Muslim League and they new better than you what the movement was all about. The Direct Action in Calcutta on the 18th day of Ramadan (16 August 1946), the same of the Battle of Badr, inaugurated movement for independent Pakistan. This is what Muslim League pamphlets, circulated amongst Muslims and read out in mosque sermons, read:

"Muslims must remember that it was in Ramzam that the Quran was revealed. It was in Ramzan that the permission for Jehad was granted. It was in Ramzam that the battle of Badr, the first open conflict between Islam and Heathenism [i.e., idolatry, which equates Hinduism] was fought and won by 313 Muslims; and again it was in Ramzan that 10,000 under the Holy Prophet conquered Mecca and established the kingdom of Heaven and the commonwealth of Islam in Arabia. Muslim League is fortunate that it is starting its action in this holy month.

By the grace of God, we are ten cores [100 millions] in India but through our bad luck we have become slaves of the Hindus and the British. We are starting a Jehad in Your Name in this very month of Ramzan. Pray make us strong in body and mind—give Your helping hand in all out actions—make us victorious over the Kafers [enemy of Allah aka Hindus]—enable us to establish the Kingdom of Islam in India and make proper sacrifices for this Jehad—by the grace of God may we build up in India the greatest Islamic kingdom in the world." [Khosla, p51-52; Khan, The Great Partition, p63-64]

During holy month of Ramadan 1915

Started to build during Ramadan 1921.In the shadow of Henry Fords famous assembly plant at Highland Park MI.

If 'God' wrote this, why is he referring to himself as if he were not himself?

Think of an huge ego and multiply that with infinity. There you have Allah aka Muhammad. If it's really allah's words, then Allah is his own bisggest fan. He brags about how great he is and how powerful etc. you almost get the idea, that even allah worships allah.

duh-swami. Restricting self from eating and drinking from dawn to dusk trains one for self restraint.

You may not like to fast. Give fidia. It is better to fast.

Your reply is a slap in the face of Reed Wilson. He might have failed to take lessons in history.

Restricting self from eating and drinking from dawn to dusk trains one for self restraint.

If missing lunch trains you for self restraint, missing dawn and dusk meals also will restrain you even more...Fast with just sipping water for four or more days and see what self restraint really means...How many Muslims could even go two full days of fasting and maintain their self restraint?...If missing lunch does you a lot of good, just think what missing twelve meals in a row would do for you...

Like all things ritual in Islam, fasting also comes from Hinduism. Avtually hindus have various types of fasting rituals. Missing just One meal (copied by Islam) is called the beinners fasting. Genrally Hindu kids, weak and frail, sik people, pregnant woman, mensturating woman partake in this childrens fasting. This also goes by the name of "12 hr vigil" or in hindi (barahan parah). You do nto eat for 12 hrs. You can perform this in any combination of 1 day, 5 days, 11 days, 21 days, 31 days or chalasia ie 40 days. Offcourse you can do it at any time in any 12 month period. Islam just added the idol worship of moon and took the 30 day option. Idolatory is big in Islam.

There is a real fasting called yogic fasting meant for yogis and trained priests. That is a sip of water every 12 hrs and is generally done for 11 days. Offcourse muslims selected for themselves the "kiddie fasting"

regards

If a person missed one day of fasting during Ramadan,that person must make it up with another 30 days of fasting?

Jesus fasting for 40 days and nights, 24 hours per day, no eating for 40 days. Matthew 4:2

muslims did false fasting 12 hours per day , everyday they are eating, this is not fasting. They are mocking at God.

If muslims will to follow Jesus's fasting, many will be killed.

dead or alive. "If a person missed one day of fasting during Ramadan,that person must make it up with another 30 days of fasting?

No dead. One day is one day.Fasting is no compulsion:

"Believers, fasting has been made mandatory for you as it was made mandatory for the people before you, so that you get disciplined. Fasting is for numbered days. One who is sick or on a journey has to fast the same number of days at another time.

Those who can afford a redemption should feed a poor person. Good deeds performed on one's own initiative will be rewarded. However, fasting is better and will be rewarded.

The month of Ramadan is the month in which the Quran was revealed; a guide for the people, the most authoritative of all guidance and a criteria to discern right from wrong. Anyone of you who knows that the month of Ramadan has begun, he must start fasting.

Those who are sick or on a journey have to fast the same number of days at another time. God does not impose any hardship upon you. He wants you to have comfort so that you may complete the fast, glorify God for His having given you guidance, and that, you be grateful to Him (2:183-85)

I am tea addict 'dead' and fasting is tough for addicts initially. I will overcome the boredom in a day or two.

Chanakya ."Like all things ritual in Islam, fasting also comes from Hinduism."

N ice to know that. Thank you Hindus for Islam.

"Offcourse muslims selected for themselves the "kiddie fasting"

Even the kiddie fasting is hard for me. Which kind of fasting you are fasting Chanakya? And do you survive?

regards

@ Rationalist, Reed Wilson has a thick skin, and therefore would not have felt the slap, anyway.

Plus, the Mussies fasting is a big joke. Early in the morning, they wake up and help themselves with food, so hefty that even a swine would fail. Then they wait for another grand feast breaking fast ceremony, followed by dinner and supper slots. While fasting they sleep like dead swines because of laziness as they have been programmed to think they are weak and should not work. Forget about what the faked book says but these are what the book followers do. The total food consumption and wastages are a lot more than the normal days. Doesn't islam cause these?

Not only the sick, amongst others are exempted. Those fasting the islamic way are sick too. They fast (miss lunch) for 12 hours but brag as if they fast for 1 month.

To comprehend the feelings of the poor, Mussies should get out of their comfortable beds in air-conditioned rooms and sleep in huts and dust-filled roadside corridors, avoid make up and put on their stupid faces, leave aside the silk robes and jewellery and walk around instead of trotting on petrol-guzzling automobiles. These help reduce hypocrisy.

I realized that it makes little sense to teach muslims that their religion is nothing but fake and fiction. Muslims do not like to be taught by westerners, they regard this as arrogant. They event hink that it is arrogant the way westerners helpt the poor people in Somalia who are unable to help themselves because of islamist radicals and because of the fact that islam does not provide any useful knowledge at all. People in the Far East learnt how to adapt western knowledge while muslim countres didnt. Why, perhaps because of the order not to copy the infidels according to the quran.

In the U.S. movie Midnite Express.In this big prison in Istanbul A Turk cooked for the westerns.The westerns told the Turk ,that he made shity tea.The Turk laughed.And said it was good shit.

M. A. Khan, editor. Pakistan was not there before partition of India and there was freedom of Pakistan.

Jihad is continuous obligation for every Muslim and has remote to do with Ramzan. In surah Hajj Allah says:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّـهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَـٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّـهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

"Strive steadfastly for the cause of God. He has chosen you but has not imposed on you hardship in your religion, the noble religion of your father, Abraham. God named you Muslims before and also in this book, so that the Messenger will witness on you and you will be the witness over people. Be steadfast in your prayer, pay Zakat, and seek protection from God; He is your Guardian, a gracious Guardian and protector" (22:78)

Sorry Mr. M.A. Khan for repetition. I did not want it.

The Gerat Buana. Your post for Reed et al "I realized that it makes little sense to teach muslims that their religion is nothing but fake and fiction."

You are very right TGB. I am experiencing the same. They say RW is not muslim.

Muslims do not like to be taught by westerners, they regard this as arrogant. They event hink that it is arrogant the w

Please do not scarce us away.

Muslims do not like to be taught by westerners, they regard this as arrogant. They event hink that it is arrogant the w

No Reed, that's not a right observation of yours. They do like to be taught by westerners- in the field of explosives, firearms, human rights (to deceit ) etc.etc. to make their Allah jubilant.

Muslims will never listen to other. They believe to posess the only right revelation and that there is no need tolisten to others. This is also the reason why they think that they must force everybody to embrace islam. However, during Ramadan, many muslim countries rely heavily on non-muslim who do the work which is to be done. But it is very unlikely that anything will change soon because of the reasons mentioned above. Muslims are not used to discuss openly and they have no experience with an open debate. Bookprinting was forbidden for centuries throughout the islamic world with the result that there had been no critiical discussion of islam . There was no reformation, no Galileo, no Schiopenhauer, no Nietzsche and no Feuerbach or any grat thinker who had the guts to question islam. There were only scribes who were always teaching the same to the same stupid sheep by reciting and memorizing without thinking or questioning. This is in fact very shameful for all humans because we are all supposed to use our brains. If we were really created by god, why did he give brains to us? Only for reciting and memorizing? Islam wants this but this is not enough.

How come that muslims have time to fast during Ramadan? Arent there enough things to be done? The west is so busy with provideing ffod to the hungry people in Somalia. And are there enough schools in the islamic world and jobs? Muslims are hating the west but ignoring the fact that they are importing almost everything for oil from the infidels including food. Without oil the islamic economy would not work at all but muslims are ignoring this and this true ignorance: Not to want to know the truth.

Dwito."No Reed, that's not a right observation of yours. They do like to be taught by westerners- in the field of explosives, firearms, human rights (to deceit ) etc.etc. to make their Allah jubilant."

It was not my observation.

The Great Buana."Muslims will never listen to other."

Yes it is like that. In matters related to faith, all people are so obstinate. It is, perhaps respective clergy maharaj who misguides them because he is earning his living at the expense of faith.

It was not my observation.

So now you need others observations for your stand?

Yes it is like that. In matters related to faith, all people are so obstinate.

Does it say that in Quran? It is a natural human trait that everyone want's to be right all the time, even if they are not...This is why the religious mind will believe in fantastic events that they would reject if coming from a different source than their particular religion...
For instance Christians will reject Mohammads night journey, but readily accept Jesus transfiguration, and other Bible miracles...Muslims do the same thing, they reject Jesus as the Son of God, but readily accept Mohammed as Allah's messenger...No questions asked...This has less to do with religious truth and much more to do with human, ego and the ability to fear...In this case the fear of admitting they are wrong, or irrelevant...
This is what manufactures religious supremacist, and a bigoted attitude about it...Sometimes these supremacists are so bigoted that violence is made possible...This mental fragmentation has created jihad in Islam...But they are not the only ones afflicted by it, just the most dangerous...

duh_swami. Your this post is intelligent. You asked "Does it say that( In matters related to faith, all people are so obstinate) in Quran?

Yes it is Quran also.

"For instance Christians will reject Mohammads night journey....".

I will also reject. It not in Quran. Mohammed as Allah's messenger is there in Quran. Jesus as son of God is not in Bible. He was a man. He himself called himself as son of man in the Bible.

"This mental fragmentation has created jihad in Islam...But they are not the only ones afflicted by it, just the most dangerous..."

Jihad is not essentially armed encounter. It is continued lifetime obligation and is sign of life. In surah Hajj Allah says:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّـهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَـٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّـهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

"Strive steadfastly for the cause of God. He has chosen you but has not imposed on you hardship in your religion, the noble religion of your father, Abraham. God named you Muslims before and also in this book, so that the Messenger will witness on you and you will be the witness over people. Be steadfast in your prayer, pay Zakat, and seek protection from God; He is your Guardian, a gracious Guardian and protector" (22:78)

If you don like Jihad, dont like!

You are wrong on this one Reed. Jesus does say that He is the Son of God.
John 10:35-37
New International Version (NIV)
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
He also makes other references to His divine nature in passages like this John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 8: 54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
You see Reed Jesus was both fully God ,and fully human. You have said that you used to be Christian so I thought that you would have known his simple fact ,but I guess I was wrong.

Cerebrum123.Thanks. You write "You are wrong on this one Reed. Jesus does say that He is the Son of God."

Please agree that he used 'son of man' also for himself at several occasions.

I give some citations from Bible:

"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.” Acts2:22

"And by faith in his name hath his name made this man strong, whom ye behold and know: yea, the faith which is through him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all". Acts.3:16

Jesus experienced a normal, human birth (Matt. 1: 18-25). At eight days of age, the baby Jesus was circumcised (Luke 2: 21). "And the child grew," Luke tells us of Jesus (2:40). Again Luke writes: "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature..." (Luke 2: 52). Jesus the man was not physically dissimilar from other men (see Isa. 53: 1-3). Jesus experienced normal physical desires. Jesus knew hunger (Matt. 4: 2), thirst (John 19: 28), and physical depletion (John 4: 6). Jesus suffered pain and when lacerated, he bled (1 Pet. 3: 18, John 18: 1-34). Jesus was made a "little lower than the angels" (Heb. 2: 7). Jesus was tempted in "all points" (Heb. 4: 15). Alluding to Jesus' human experience, Paul wrote: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2: 5, see John 1: 1-14).
John 10:37 “Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.” This also means that Jesus did not pronounce himself as God.

"You see Reed Jesus was both fully God, and fully human."

It is not 'simple fact' sorry to say. I was and I am a Christian. But my friend, it is very difficult to find true Christian, true Hindu, true Jews, true Zoroastrian etc these days. We all share one common religion of SHIRK, a cult of associating partners with God.

Cerebrum. In my post above:

It is not 'simple fact' sorry to say. I was and I am a Christian. But my friend, it is very difficult to find true Christian, true Hindu, true Jews, true Zoroastrian etc these days. We all share one common religion of SHIRK, a cult of associating partners with God.

I missed 'true Muslim' there by mistake.

John 10:37 “Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.” This also means that Jesus did not pronounce himself as God.

But He DID do the works of His Father ,and He did claim to be God ,He was just a little more subtle about it than going out and saying "I am God Worship me".
If He would have said it like that EVERYBODY would have thought He was crazy. You say that you are Christian yet you deny Christ Jesus as lord. 1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
By denying the Son you are denying the Father also. Jesus was BOTH fully God ,and fully human. The Bible is clear on this matter. The Quran is at odds with the Bible ,and you trust the Quran over the Bible.You seem to have the idea that "all roads lead to heaven" going on in your head. That view is faulty for Jesus said John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Either Jesus was wrong when He said this or He was right ,there are no two ways about this.

Cerebrum123. It is not 'simple fact' sorry to say. I was and I am a Christian. But my friend, it is very difficult to find true Christians, true Hindus, true Jews, true Zoroastrians, true Muslims etc these days. We all share one common religion of SHIRK, a cult of associating partners with God.

If you consider son of God as God, you are very generous. All Brahmans are sons of God, but they dont say "we are Gods" except our duh-swami.

I think you should give more weight to the teachings of Jesus rather than his status.

All Brahmans are sons of God, but they dont say "we are Gods" except our duh-swami.

Am I a Brahman? What is the pay grade for Brahman? Does it pay more than the God job? I might be willing to switch if the pay is right...

Your package is under consideration. Pl. continue with your present job.

Not only brahmins, in Hindu culture every every one is a son(or daughter), i.e. creation of god. that's why we can think our god in the life of even stray street dogs, hogs, tortoise and so on. Anything and anywhere,We don't underestimate it, But just give the right value to which it worth. the mismatch you find are very mundane of regular practices of commoners. Don't forget the scientist who established the life of plants was a theist Hindu.

However, to find a true Hindu, you have to study and realize the Hinduism first, Are you ready brother?

Dwito. Not only brahmins, in Hindu culture every every one is a son(or daughter), i.e. creation of god. that's why we can think our god in the life of even stray street dogs, hogs, tortoise and so on. Anything and anywhere,We don't underestimate it, But just give the right value to which it worth."

Thank you dwito. You further reinforced my point.

"However, to find a true Hindu, you have to study and realize the Hinduism first, Are you ready brother?

No need. True Hindus are equally difficult to find as I stated earlier. Do consider most of Hindus we find are true Hindus?

Dwito Please read as:

Do you consider most of Hindus we find are true Hindus?

The concept of God as one entity or monotheism is originally the concept of Judaism and Christianity. The Qureshis and other tribes of Arabia believed in many gods or in other words multitheism. Mo borrowed monotheism from the judeo- christian belief system and made multitheism the greatest sin in Islam. This is the concept of shirk in Islam. According to Islam, to say or consider that Allah has any partner is a greater sin than looting or plundering innocent people or killing people or abusing young girls. Mo did all these crimes wantonly during his lifetime, but rebuked shirk severely and threatened those who indulge in it with hell fire for ever in the hereafter. So all muslims consider shirk to be the greatest sin! Our baffoon Reed is no different. He laments always that we can't see true jews, true christians, true muslims or true hindus in this world, but only people who practise shirk. As always, he is living in an utopian world. What is the truth? Who we see around us as jews, christians, muslims or hindus are true followers of their respective religions. In fact, I would say the mainstream muslims are the true followers of Islam and Mo and they are more religious and steadfast in their beliefs than other religionists. In fact, the steadfastness and loyalty of muslims to Islam makes it a cult, rather than a religion. Reed Wilson simply ignores these facts and parades lies after lies in a bid to glorify Islam.

Fans scuffle over racy 'ful and tamiz' --Arab News.
After this semi-fast, Saudi Arabians started a few scuffles in trying to jump queues.
Muslims should try a 24 hour or 48 hour fast, and maybe then will learn self-restraint.

Do you consider most of Hindus we find are true Hindus?

No need, boy! Just find those who are worshiped, (obviously not like Chandraswamis or Jr. Snaibabas).

I think you should give more weight to the teachings of Jesus rather than his status.

That's the point Jesus did teach that He was the Son of God ,and indeed divine Himself. This is apparently a point you are missing. The title "Son of God" implies not only His divine nature in a metaphoric way ,but also His relationship with God the Father. Your statements about being a Christian ,and yet denying the divine nature of Christ are a bit confusing.

Thank you dwito. You further reinforced my point.

Good to know that. Pl. elaborate.

D'wito. I like Sannatan Dharam and all the dharams. I cannot own respective clergies. They are not required. This is what Quran tells me.

There is no religious festival like Idulfitr in Islam. It is maliciously included as ritual. I dont any mention of Id or Eid in Quran. This life is not for celebrations.

Fitrah or fitrana, after which Eidul fitr is allegedly named, has no meanings. Yes!

This life is not for celebrations.

Who are you to declare that? The Supreme leader in Iran made the statement that there is no fun in Islam...Maybe you agree with that dark and boring assessment...Many people celebrate their lives every day, they refuse to be bound up by boredom and despair... No happiness equals no fun...Happiness and fun are in themselves reasons to celebrate...That this life is not for celebration is prison...But then, Islam is a sort of minimum security prison, where there is no fence around it, and the prisoners can wander around nearly anywhere they want...But they bring their unhappiness, and an unhealthy desire to destroy fun, with them...The destruction of happiness, celebration, and fun, is evil...It opposes human development and creates psychosis...This is Islam...When ever Islam rears it's ugly head, there is nothing to celebrate...

duh_swami. You write "Who are you to declare that?

Yes you are absolutely right. I am none to declare that. I am happy you responded and in quite intelligent manner.

I ALWAYS speak for Quran. When I say 'in my opininion, the logic behind the opinion is Quran. I expect "how do you say that?"

إِنَّ السَّاعَةَ آتِيَةٌ أَكَادُ أُخْفِيهَا لِتُجْزَىٰ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا تَسْعَىٰ

"It is certain that the Day of Judgment will come, I prefer to keep it almost a secret so that every soul will receive the recompense for what they have earned". (20:15)

cotd.

From above:

We get this suggestion at several places in Quran that this world is for earning. Joys are justified on moments when we feel that we fared the test well.

Similar suggestions we get in the Gospels and other scriptures.

Do not believe 'The Supreme leader in Iran'. He is equally helpless. RW is better respected a person than the 'supreme leader'.

Mr. Swami I dont find festivals in Quran. In Gospel there is a mention of prevalent festivals of Passover and festival of Unleavened Bread which are fasah and fateer in Arabic repectively. Jesus did not introduced them. Eidul Fateer is closer to Eidul Fitar observed by Muslims after Ramzan. For how long? I dont know.

Mr. duh-swami.

I am sorry only half of my post for you could get through. Be it suffice.

Half a post from you is often better than a full one...

You said that you also reject Mo's night journey since it is not there in the Quran.

Is it?
Then, what is referred to in Q 17:1?
Please clarify.

I regret the error in typing Reed's name in place of mine in the above post.

Of course, the question is addressed to Reed.

Where in the Gospels does it ever say that life is not for celebrations? Jesus' first miracle was changing water into wine at a wedding celebration. God wanted us to be able to have joy in our lives ,in fact it's one of the "fruits of the spirit" mentioned in the Bible. Yes we should work to earn a living ,but that doesn't mean that we can't have fun either while doing it ,or while resting from that earning. God wanted us to have life "in abundance". God wants us to be able to enjoy life ,and a personal relationship with Him through Jesus Christ.

duh_swami. You write "Half a post from you is often better than a full one..".

Thank you for compliments Mr. Swami. It is for the third time you are so generous.

Mr. Kafirwala. You ask "You said that you also reject Mo's night journey since it is not there in the Quran. Is it? Then, what is referred to in Q 17:1? Please clarify".

It quite clear already. It is not there in Quran. It is not there in 17:1 which reads:

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِّنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ

Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the masjid alharam to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

"GLORY TO HIM who took His votary to a wide and open land from the masjid alharam to the distant mosque whose precincts We have blessed, that We may show him some of Our signs. Verily He is all-hearing and all-seeing". (Tr. Ahmad Ali and Shakir)

Please note no Muhammad, no Jerusalem. No heaven and no hell. No Gabriel and no white horse. One interpretor says that it refers to Hijrah. I am not sure.

One may believe whatever he likes if he is bent upon believing at his own cost.

Believing only costs when it is evil, or stupid...It is more costly when it is both evil and stupid...sort of like those who believe in Quran...

Q 17:1.' Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).'

In the above verse it is easily understandable that the servant of Allah refers to Mohammed and the Sacred Mosque refers to the mosque at Mecca. Mo was taken for night journey from the mosque at Mecca to the farthest mosque whose precincts are blessed by Allah. Of course some confusion remains about this ' farthest mosque'. However from 7 th century, muslims (that is, the mainstream muslims) believe that the mosque at Jerusalem is mentioned here. The intention of the journey also is very clear. Allah wanted to show his servant some of his signs. What is wrong in assuming that heaven and hell include in these 'signs'? And for journey and that too at such high speed, a vehicle also is necessary. That is how the present concept prevalent among the mainstream muslims came into being. You just cannot obfuscate these facts and mislead people.

'Please note no Muhammad, no Jerusalem. No heaven and no hell. No Gabriel and no white horse. One interpretor says that it refers to Hijrah. I am not sure. One may believe whatever he likes if he is bent upon believing at his own cost.'

Only a congenital liar of your stature can pen the above sentences. Hijra was Mo's flight from Mecca to Medina. There was no mosque at Medina at that time and Medina is not very far from Mecca too. Mo escaped to Medina not to see Allah's signs either. Your conclusion that one can believe whatever one likes is rather ridiculous. In your opinion and in the opinion of Allah too, Quran is supposed to be very clear, lucid and what not? There can't be any confusion in understanding it, can be, you convulsive liar?

Mohammads night journey was a long hallucination, brought on by psychosis, an illness with high temperature, drugs, a dream (nightmare), fabricated by him for effect, or a work of fiction for entertainment, not belief...
At any rate it did not happen...How many humans in real or imaginary history have been taken for a ride by God? I can think of three, the first was Enoch, who walked in the garden with God, and God took him...Then there was Jesus who survived death and was transfigured, then there was Mohammad...Where they were taken is debatable...Since no one had yet died, Enoch could not have gone to heaven and met with dead human hero's...There would be no one there except God and a few angels...According to some, Enoch is the only human to ever look upon the face of God and lived...He is now an angel, Metatron, the 'Angel of the presence'...
Jesus trip with God is well known, but also very special...Mohammad's trip pales next to Enoch and Jesus...Both the Enoch and Jesus trips are pretty straight forward with no use of literary devices and details...Mohammad's trip is a poor example of copy cat...Enoch and Jesus owned no vanity, Mohammad had it all...

You missed someone else from the Bible who had been taken directly to heaven without dying. Elijah ascended into heaven on a "chariot of fire". He had a witness to this event ,and that was his successor Elisha. Also Jesus didn't "survive" death He did indeed die ,and then was raised from the dead of His own power. With Enoch the entire "Metatron" thing is in an apocryphal book.Also you are incorrect when you say that no one else had yet died ,because Cain murdered Abel. I'm actually quite interested in reading some of the apocrypha. They are making or have just made a video game called El Shaddai Rise of the Metatron. I wonder if it's any good.

Haha, you believe everything in the Bible, just like Muslims believe everything in Quran...
You and pious Muslims have something in common, you are equally deluded, and defend your delusions with equal vigor...You are such a fanatic that you can hardly write a post without referencing the Bible...Your proof is the same as FAIROZ...You get your proofs from a book, or a 'somebody said', usually from the book...

'He had a witness to this event, and that was his successor Elisha'...

You did not witness it because you were not there, you believe the Bible account without question because you are stuck in the book...You don't really know if Elisha, actually witnessed this or not...You don't really know if Cain killed Able or not...You simply indulge in blind belief...If the Bible says it, it must be true...You are definitely not open (closed minded) about any other point of view...That's why it's Bible study time all the time...When your that stuck, that's all there is...

Again you claim that I believe in the Bible blindly ,this is NOT the case. Everything I have ever seen ,and experienced supports the Bible. History ,science ,and archaeology all support the Bible.All of the very specific prophecies contained in the Bible have come to pass with the exception of end times prophecies ,such as contained in the book of Revelation. I have experienced miracles in my own life ,and know people who have in theirs. I have had an encounter with the spiritual world when I was younger ,and it's still very vivid in my mind today. The teachings of Jesus ,and the influence of the Holy Spirit ,have both had extremely positive effects on my life. I am not placing my faith in the Bible blindly. My whole life experience has shown that the Bible is 100% trustworthy ,and that humans(scientists ,doctors, and specialists) are fallible ,and do not know anything close to what they claim to know. Whenever I have trusted in humans first ,and the Bible second it always turns out for the worst ,but when I put God's word first in my life things work out. My life isn't perfect ,in fact it's far from it ,but when you place your faith in God and His word ,things will work out in the end. I'm not one of those "healthy ,wealthy ,and happy" preachers. There is hardship in life ,and that is a fact. Trust in God ,and He will always come through for you.Mock me all you want ,but I have a real relationship with Christ ,and I would like other people to be able to have this too. That's the whole reason i come on here ,and I won't be discouraged by your mocking ,and insults.

Kafirwala. I am not imposing my views on anyone.

If you believe hadis story of Night Journey, you have rights. You will find millions with you. Enjoy!

Again you claim that I believe in the Bible blindly ,this is NOT the case.

Are you serious? Believing someone ascended to heaven on a "chariot of fire" is a totally childish and fairytalistic. This is a lie! No one ascended to heaven physiccaly, never happened. Don't believe this crap, because it shows you are immature. This is deffinately not true, just like the Mi'raaj of Muhammad.

Both are against the laws of nature/God. I believe you already know this but why you tend to believe this kind of lies, i don't know.

Maybe Jesus doesn't want you to tell others. Jesus is, as you believe it, mighty enough to help humanity. Also it seems to me that because Jesus gave his life as you believe it, now we must follow him otherwise we are not saved. Is this love?

Tina Turner song: What's love got top do with it...?

Again you claim that I believe in the Bible blindly ,this is NOT the case.

Then you go on and prove my contention...

I don't know what you mean by mocking and insults...In my view you mock and insult yourself...I refer to you as a 'Supremacist, religious bigot' because you fit the dictionary definitions...It is not name calling, mocking or insult...It is an accurate description...You think you have something others do not, a personal relationship with God/Jesus and miracles...And nothing can penetrate that wall...
This puts you a notch over them, a superior position where you can preach downhill...
This is why speakers and preachers talk from a stage or elevated pulpit...or from a soap box in a park...Knowledge runs downhill, from the superior mind to those who's heads are full of mush...Sometimes this is just fine unless the speaker loses his sense of proportion, and becomes egotistically over bearing...This happens to religious bigots a lot...It is also self defeating in sharing the good news...or Islam either...

Mr. Kafirwala. Sometime I miss Mr. Muhammad.A.Khan, a learned author of various good articles on this site.

Mr. Khan was very harsh, aggressive and pungent. He would address as Reed aka clown. Also call rascal, pig. lier, crap, scumbag and whatever revile depending on his command on vocabulary. That all was fine with me.

One thing I admire in him that he never called RW as dishonest.

On your writing "You are deliberately lying, Mr. Reed Wilson!", I am thinking of him. Does anybody know how is he?

'Also call rascal, pig. lier, crap, scumbag and whatever revile depending on his command on vocabulary'.

'One thing I admire in him that he never called RW as dishonest'.

A liar is dishonest by definition...You must have missed something in the translation...

God created nature ,and i above it's laws and principles. Most of the time He lets' these laws and principles run the way they are supposed to. Other times ,usually to show His power or help those who need Him, He does things that are against these laws. Machmoed you should realize that God is not nature ,and that nature is one of God's creations. This being the case He is certainly able to override them when He deems it necessary.

@ Duh
You have insulted and mocked me. Some examples of this are you calling me deluded ,and saying that I would fail any 7th grade science test. I gave you a great number of good reasons to trust the Bible ,and all you have to say is that I proved you right that I believe blindly? I think you are not reading my posts ,or you don't understand what I did post. You say I believe blindly in the Bible yet you blindly believe everything a "scientist" tells you ,provided they believe the way you do that is ,and yet you continue these assaults ,and ad hominem attacks.

You have insulted and mocked me.

You insult and mock yourself...I just calls em as I see's em...If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, if you are going to make wildly controversial statements and back them up with supremacist bigotry, expect to get mocked...
Reed Wilson, Malman and yourself are wide open to mocking...interestingly, Reed is the only one who does little or no whining about it...I mock him a lot, it's sort of a hobby...
Malman cries and whines more than you do, putting your whining in third place...That's not too bad, but try not to get ahead of Malman...

duh-swami. "A liar is dishonest by definition".

May be by definition. When a high profile uses 'deliberate lier' it deserve attention. In US you are lying means 'you are wrong'.

Do you know where is Mr.Muhammad Khan?

May be by definition. When a high profile uses 'deliberate lier' it deserve attention. In US you are lying means 'you are wrong'.

Deliberate liar is redundant...It is like saying 'liar-liar...All lies are deliberate, if not deliberate, they are just mistakes...The question is one of intent...

And in the US, it does not mean 'you are wrong'...Where did you get that piece of falsehood? Are you telling a lie, or just making a mistake? Where does it say that in Quran?

Machmoed you should realize that God is not nature ,and that nature is one of God's creations. This being the case He is certainly able to override them when He deems it necessary.

Shame He never did override them to proove your case.

There might be a creator and i have never said otherwise, but what does it has to do with human inventions as religions or even my view? Nothing!

I don't know what God is, but i do know what He is NOT!

My point was that the Creator is distinct from His creation. He is above His creation ,and is powerful enough to override these laws if He deems it necessary. I have personally experienced miracles ,and other supernatural activity. These things that I have experienced were beyond any explanation by science ,and did not fit in with the natural order of things. I never said that you believed that there was no Creator ,only that you had Creator confused with creation. Yes religions are man made institutions. Christianity is not religion though. It's all about having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. These two are common misconceptions. Miracles that defy scientific explanation do happen even if you believe otherwise. Not far from where I live there is a hospital. At this hospital a baby died. The family desperately prayed to God ,and the baby came back to life. This particular case was even on Unsolved Mysteries. My mom worked at that hospital. This case was not a hoax it really happened. The physical world isn't all there is to life ,there is a spiritual world as well ,and a great battle is taking place there as I am posting. We can't see it ,hear it , taste it, smell it ,or touch it ,but it is there. The chaos in this world ,and the evil we see in it attest to this fact. This battle is over the souls of mankind. I share what I believe because I don't want a single soul to be lost. I know that that is impossible ,but I am saddened when anyone dies without Jesus in their lives.

duh_swami "Deliberate liar is redundant...It is like saying 'liar-liar".

Thanks.

He is above His creation ,and is powerful enough to override these laws if He deems it necessary.

Speculation my friend. Everything fit's withing a system driven by laws. Even these unnatural things as you imply are natural. There are a lot of energies we still don't know and how it works.

God is not in our existence...he is above it, as you stated and that's exactly why we can't know him, the way you imply we can.

I didn't confuse cration with creator. These two are for us inseperable and the same.

Jesus came in human form to reveal Himself to us in a way that we can understand ,and to save us from our sinful nature. The Bible is also a direct revelation from God telling us what He what His character is like ,and how we can come to Him. Creation cannot be the same as Creator. These two are separate and distinct from each other. If you paint something or sculpt something ,does that mean that you are part of the painting or sculpture? If Creator and creation are the same then they would have to be in the same existence. Yes everything that is material has to play by the rules of the material universe ,but God however is in our existence ,but in an immaterial way ,and is not subject to the laws of creation. Jesus was fully human and fully divine. Being fully human meant his body was subject to the same rules our bodies are ,meaning He had to eat and sleep. However His divine nature allowed Him to override the normal laws of the physical universe when He deemed it necessary. The Bible is God's revelation to man which culminated in His coming in the flesh as Jesus. This is why we can know Him on a personal level.

If you paint something or sculpt something ,does that mean that you are part of the painting or sculpture?

Yes it does as a matter of fact, and all artists know it...

In the case of a painting or a sculpture the artist has complete control and is not physically a part of the artwork. Also the artist is also able to change the artwork at will. If the artist decides to change his art will it change the artist himself? Art is completely subject to the artists' will and capabilities as an artist. The universe as God's creation is completely subject to His will ,and He is distinct from it just as an artist is distinct from his art.

you wrote: Creation cannot be the same as Creator. These two are separate and distinct from each other.

That's what you believe, but can you proof it? No you can't, so the only thing you know is there must be God through experiences in life. This means that God exixts withing your life. Outside this life, you don´t know and won´t know.
To us there is only creation wich we all agree on. Creator is is just a mathematical X who is supposed to explain the world we see, but not understand and therefor X, God. Now we do know more, but not all and what you see is that God becomes less and less important.

You wrote If Creator and creation are the same then they would have to be in the same existence.
That´s right. Even if God exists, for us he is unseperable from this life or creation.

I worded my response wrong then. What I meant is that is that God exists outside of this universe ,and if He didn't exist outside of this universe then He couldn't have created it. Nothing can create itself. No God is not just a mathematical X that cannot be known ,He is a personal loving God who came to be a part of our world as both fully divine ,and fully human in the person of Jesus Christ ,and when He did He gave up His life to pay the penalty for the crimes we have committed against Him ,and offer us eternal life.

As for the naming of the so called "neanderthal" this was done by evolutionists in their presuppositional bias to support their religion. There is no real difference between a so called "neanderthal" and a modern human except for some skeletal differences that are far from being "ape-like". In fact "neanderthals" had larger brains than we do on average today ,and as a result were likely smarter than we are now. The "neanderthals" are simply what human's looked like many years ago. Humans did NOT descend from apes ,and there is no evidence to support this idea. The 99% DNA match between humans and chimps is what I would expect you to bring up after what I just said so I'm going to address it before the next post. This similarity has been inflated by not comparing large parts of the DNA in both. Also chimps have more chromosomes than we do ,and also their DNA is 12% larger than ours. The DNA that is left out of this comparison is often called "junk" DNA by evolutionists. Also if you go by the same standard of DNA comparison of chimps and humans then you also get a 50% similar DNA between humans and bananas. Do you think we are descended from bananas too?

I should have worded it this way about God's existence. If creation and Creator are the same thing then God could ONLY exist INSIDE of creation ,but God being Creator is above creation ,and exists outside of His creation as well.A creation must have an active outside force in order to be created ,because nothing can just create itself. I hope this clears things up a little.

same thing then God could ONLY exist INSIDE of creation ,but God being Creator is above creation ,and exists outside of His creation as well.

If that is the case, I am right, 'God' never thought or said anything, because both of them are creations...Or the most you can say is they come out of no-where with no meaning...In order to have meaning, 'God' has to reduce himself to the created, because only the created can hear him...but what is created is not the creator so all creation is impure...Men grasp at these impurities and form religions based on them...Creations are full of good things, it is also, at the same time, full of pain, suffering and evil inflicted on other created, simply because they are created, if God is creation, God tortures himself......'God' is not moral nor immoral, 'God' is amoral...because both immorality and morality are creations...God the absolute cannot indulge in this, if it does, it is not absolute...

You wrote: If creation and Creator are the same thing then God could ONLY exist INSIDE of creation ,but God being Creator is above creation ,and exists outside of His creation as well.

To us humans we can't know what's outside this creation, so for us it is the same. I'm not saying there is no creator, only that it is an assumption based on not knowing who or what brought this universe in motion in the first place. This is far different from a religious God. Every event is unconditional, we humans are the ones who stamp it as good or evil or something else. An creator could exist, but we don't know. This creator is just not the creator explained by religions. We are free though to believe whatever we want, at the same time, beware of insulting your intelligence.

God revealed Himself to us from both the Bible ,and Jesus. Again Christianity is not about religion it's about having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ ,and with the Holy Spirit being with you at all times.Jesus came to reveal more about the nature and character of God ,this is how we can know God without knowing every detail about Him. We can know that the Bible is God's Word. One of the reasons we can know this is for us to be even capable of knowledge in the first place is because the Bible is true. Science ,knowledge ,and logic are only possible if the Bible is true. I'm not saying that someone has to believe in the Bible to do these things ,but that it is only possible if the Bible is true.Also all historical ,scientific ,and archaeological evidence support the truth of the Bible.One such example of the Bible's historicity is the city of Jericho being unearthed with it's walls collapsed except in one small area. This matches up with the Bible's description of the event perfectly. All people interpret the same evidence ,but because of their presuppositions they interpret it differently. That's why so many "experts" can look at the same thing and come to completely different conclusions. This is especially prominent in the field of historical and forensic sciences. Creationists (who are just as qualified in their respective fields of science) will interpret evidence differently than an evolutionist. For example creationists see the different strata as evidence for the flood of Noah ,and evolutionists see it as millions of years of erosion and deposition. Since an animal or plant needs to be rapidly buried in order to fossilize ,the millions of years does not match up.For instance there are fossil trees that go through multiple layers of strata ,an impossibility for the evolutionist timeline. Another is a recently found t-rex with soft tissue including blood vessels intact ,another impossibility if dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. In fact a lot of animals that were deemed extinct have been found to be the same now as their supposed millions of years "brethren". These creatures are often called "living fossils". One such example is the coelacanth.

God is eternal ,and is the source of purpose. God revealing His will to His creation that He made in His image in no way removes the absolute moral laws God has made. God did come down to His creation and reduced Himself to a servant that we might all be saved from the penalty of sin. Jesus did remain fully divine ,but He was fully human too.Morality and immorality are not human creations ,but the creation of God. These laws were set in place for our own good. Just like a father telling his children to look both ways before crossing the street. A lot of people hate having any restriction placed on them so they in turn hate God ,and try to push Him out of their lives. The religion of secular humanism has been doing this to the extreme ,and is even teaching their beliefs in public schools ,while replacing anything that has to do with God from every corner of public life. This kind of thinking is leading to a decline in morals all across the nation ,and the effects are seen everywhere. George Washington said it the best when he said "It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible". When morality is decided only by man it is subject to change ,and even things like murder become moral when this is done. Islam teaches that it is moral to kill apostates ,and since you believe human opinion is supreme then you have no right to condemn people who do this because it is their human opinions that govern this. After all Islam is basically Mohammed's own opinion on life so how can you claim it is wrong when you base your morals on your own opinion as well?

Don't preach to me Mr bigot, and who are you to tell me what my rights are? I don't let bigots 'tell' me anything...I don't consider anything you have to say is credible...

You wrote: We can know that the Bible is God's Word.

You must mean inspired word unless you believe Mark, Luke etc. were God himself.

I know what the bible sais. I know what the Qur'an sais. You want to know what i'm saying? What i'm saying is, both have nothing to do with God/creator etc. Time is the teacher and the world is the school. With time we have evolved and so is the concept of God.
I could tell you that the real story in the bible is an astrological one and that you didn't understand it. I could tell you that most scriptures approximately from that time Jesus wasn't a person lived with them, but rather a spiritual one.
Blame it on the romans i would say, but i will never believe God has anything to do with scriptures or so called prophets...just being rational i geuss. Thanx for the effort anyway.

Cerebrum123 "Jesus did remain fully divine ,but He was fully human too."

Are you a priest, Cerebrum123? You
talk like Catholic priest. BTW a female priest after being attached to church for 25 years claims that Jesus told her to convert to Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrz2X9AcDEg

She says she will retain her Christianity. You did not share with your 'experiences'.

I don't believe Reed wrote the above post...

Reed, did you write that? Send me a sign...

.duh-swami."Reed, did you write that? Send me a sign..."

Yes, I did.

Yes i did.

yes Reed, You did that. Defending Islam is your declared mission. For that reason you will never inquire why after 25 years she turned out. And in this long time of her youth, how many times she was seduced by he-preists.

HMMM interesting, I didn't know you were a devotee of youtube...

Dwito. "Defending Islam is your declared mission."

Declared!!! Who declared?

I hopped from Christianity. I was not a priest. No Jesus came to me. Cerebrum123 has seen or done miracles. I have no supernatural to report. That's why I am not understood.

No Jesus came to me.

So you hopped out of frustration?

When will you hop from Islam?

I have never performed any miracles ,but I have experienced them. One such miracle was miraculous healing after I had just prayed to God. This was a temporary healing ,but I'm 100% positive that it stopped me from receiving further damage and becoming even worse than I am now. This also led to other things that wouldn't have happened otherwise that have probably helped people. One of these events was a seminar for awareness of Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy.

You lie about the T-Rex Miracle
Cerebrum as always you just parrot stuff from Creationism sites.
The soft tisse episode was found to be false as it was slime not tissue.
Please care to read the following article which challenges the notion.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080729234140.htm

Come back if you do not understand the article and I will keep supplying till you say no more

Cerebrum123. "I have never performed any miracles ,but I have experienced them. One such miracle was miraculous healing after I had just prayed to God."

Thanks Cerebrum. I misunderstood. I wish you best in your endeavors and happiness for you, your family and friends.

One such miracle was miraculous healing after I had just prayed to God."

Too bad this system does not work for everyone...
Lots of people Pray for the healing of themselves and others...If the person prayed for heals, it is called a miracle...If they are not healed and die, which is the most common occurring result, the healing prayers were useless...
A doctor once told me that doctors heal 5% of their patients and kill 5% of their patients...The other 90% will get better or die no matter what the doctor does...Prayers are fine, but they really don't do much for the sick...An unexpected recovery is sometimes called a medical miracle, but there is no proof prayer did it...Yet if someone thinks prayer is helpful then pray, but don't expect spectacular results...

Yet if someone thinks prayer is helpful then pray, but don't expect spectacular results...

Hilarious!