One the question of abrogation: Does God abrogates; can God change his decrees?
[“Don’t judge the Muslims that you know by Islam and don’t judge Islam by the Muslims that you know”…]
“That there is no compulsion in Islam and that Islam is a religion of peace” are the common refrains amongst Muslims (activists, academics, officials and journalists). In an age of jihad terrorism, nowhere, they argue, does the Qur'an allow Muslims to fight Kafirs [non-Muslims] solely because they refuse to become Muslim….? Propagandists of Islamic tolerance point to a number of Qur'anic verses which admonish violence and advocate peace, tolerance and compromise. But not all the verses in the Qur'an have the same weight in assessments...
Unlike the Old or New Testaments, the Qur'an is not organized by chronology but by the size of its chapters (surah). Even within chapters, chronology can be confused. In surah 2, for example, Allah [God] revealed these verses 193, 216, and 217 to Muhammad shortly after he arrived in Medina, but revealed verses 190-192 six years later. This complicates interpretations, all the more when some verses appear to contradict one another?
So let’s see what abrogation is?
Abrogation means ending an agreement or contract formally or publically. God’s covenants have and will always remain in tact; what he promised, he will deliver. Abrogation is NOT a practice that one would ever imagine is a God's doing...! How can an omnipotent and omniscient God, who predestines every event in the universe, change his mind? This would make God changeable, yet he is never changing. He is expected to do as he says and yet remain as He is. Why would God suggest in one section, those earlier of His holy book, something different in a later part of His holy book? God can do anything; after all, we are dealing with God. In the Quran, the passages that were first written and understood were later changed or abrogated...? If this is the book of God, and He spoke these words, then God made those changes deliberately...! But it is more likely that this is the Holy Book IS OF MANY MEN, not just Muhammad’s, and they made those vested changes to suit their needs, and at their convenience! Rewrites were as laws of expediency, more to enable Muhammad to act in deference to what actually was written, and have become then what is written... For God does not abrogate period!
How could a true believer be guided by God, use Him as pure guide, a roadmap to salvation, a GPS to that eternal kingdom, all the while knowing that He could/would change things in the future…? What might God change? If on the right path, can that become ever wrong? Never! I don’t think the wrong path to start can ever remain so, unless and unless a heart for God is changed; then one would simply take the right Way – as was and will always be the path to a true God’s eternal kingdom…!
Abrogation in the Qur'an
The Qur'an is very unique amongst sacred scriptures in accepting the doctrine of abrogation in which later pronouncements of the Prophet/Allah declares null and void the earlier pronouncements. Four verses in the Qur’an acknowledge or justify abrogation:
- When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that Allah has the powers over all things? (Q 2:106)
- When we replace a message with another, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know. (Q 16:101)
- Allah abrogates or confirms whatsoever He will, for He has with Him the Book of the Books. (Q 13:39)
- If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us. (Q 17:86)
Rather than explaining away the inconsistencies in the Quranic passages, many Muslim jurists acknowledge these differences, but accept that in case of contradictory verses the latter ones trump earlier ones. Most Islamic scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed to Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew.
Classical scholars argued that anyone, who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation, would be "deficient". Those, who do not accept abrogation, fall outside the mainstreams and, perhaps, even from the religion itself! The Ahmadiyah sect, for example [today concentrated in Pakistan], consistently rejects abrogation, because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors. All Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates...
Because the Qur'an is not organized chronologically, there has been a whole subset of theological study to determine which verses abrogate and which are abrogated. Islamic scholars base their understandings of theology not only upon the Qur'an but also upon the Hadiths [accounts of the Prophet Muhammad's life]. One hadith in particular addresses abrogation. It cites Abu al-A‘la bin al-Shikhkhir, considered by Islamic theologians to be a reliable source of knowledge about the Prophet's life, as saying: "the Messenger of God abrogated some of his commands by others, just as the Qur'an abrogates some part of it with the other". Muhammad accepted that Allah would invalidate previous revelations, often making ordinances stricter.
Abrogation occurs not only within the Qur'an, but also by the Qur'an towards earlier revelations, such as those passed on by Jesus or Moses. Verse 2:106 refers to commandments sent to the prophets before Muhammad. ‘Abdullah Yusuf Ali, commentator and translator of the Qur'an, interpreted the verse to mean that Allah's message is the same across time, but its form may differ according to the exigencies of time. ‘Abd al-Majid Daryabadi, a Pakistani Qur'an commentator, suggested, however, that the laws might differ across time but that there should be no shame in the same lawgiver replacing temporary laws with permanent ones.
Another cause for discussions amongst the Islamic scholars is the question of whether Allah withdrew certain revelations from the memory of Muhammad and his followers, causing such revelations to disappear like some of those mentioned in the Qur'an about which little is known today. This leads to the classical theological dispute about whether such interpretations dilute the idea that the Qur'an is eternal? Those, who discount or downplay abrogation, interpret the verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca to address spirituality and see those revealed later in Medina not as abrogation but rather expanding context to understand the whole…!
Surah 2.106 (Maulana Muhammad Ali translation, 1917) reads (paraphrased): Whatever verses we (God) cancel or cause you to forget, we bring a better or its like. The number of verses in this holy book, claimed to be God speaking, were changed, much from revelations in Mecca to revelations in Medina, are estimated at 500. Now understand that a Quran you may purchase off the shelf at Barnes and Noble is written from the longest chapters, ‘surahs’, to the shortest, and not in chronological order. The compilers, after Muhammad’s death, choose to arrange the book chapter-wise from the longest to the shortest. The eternal words of Allah cannot be bound by time, changed from one period (Meccan) to another (Medina). But in the Quran it is so! Other revealed scriptures, namely the Old and New Testament, do not suffer from such fallacies.
Ali Dashti, in his book, Twenty-three Years –A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, writes: “On the assumption that the Quran is God’s word, there ought to be no trace of human intellectual imperfection in anything that God says.” (1985, London, p. 155)
Ibn Warraq, his book, Why I Am Not A Muslim, writes: “The doctrine of abrogation…makes a mockery of the Muslim dogma that the Koran is a faithful and unalterable reproduction of the original scriptures that are preserved in heaven. If God’s words are eternal, uncreated, and of universal significance, then how can we talk of God’s words being superseded or becoming obsolete?” (Prometheus Books, NY, 2003, p. 115)
A few examples –on alcohol [Early verses] “…of the fruits and palms you obtain intoxicants [sakar], goodly provisions.” First they are good: wine is good. But what Allah once permitted has since disputed [the later verses] in saying: “about intoxicants and games of chance…in both of them is a great sin….”
Qur’anic passages that preach tolerance [the religion of peace so to say] are from the dreams in Mecca, early Meccan surahs. Those passages calling for killings, beheadings [Surah-8:12], and maiming are from Medinian dreams. The later verse [Surah 9:5] (worth remembering), “…slay the idolaters, wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush….” Thus, a word to the wise (at least to the non-Muslims): BEWARE! Ibn Warraq notes (p. 115) that 124 verses considered tolerant were all cancelled…!
God does not abrogate!
Another example: Muhammad once went to visit his adopted son Zayd (the 3rd convert to Islam and a man most loyal to his new father). Zayd was not home and his wife, Zaynab bint Jahash answered the door. She was scantily clad, as it was hot. She was alone inside the house and her physical attributes were obvious. She was a beautiful woman. Muhammad became attracted to semi-nude Zaynab and marveling her beauty, Mohammad exclaimed: “Gracious Lord! Good Heavens! How you do turn the hearts of men.” But to avoid a social problem, since she was his daughter-in-law, Mohammad left in trials and tribulations in his loins… When Zayd returned, Zaynab repeated to him what Muhammad had uttered upon seeing her. Zaid, being a loyal son, went to Muhammad and offered to divorce his wife (Wow!). Muhammad said no, Zayd did it anyway. BUT deep down Muhammad knew it was wrong to marry her [his daughter-in-law], according to his own recitations of the Quran [as an adopted son was the same as a natural son]. Incest was a no-no! What then –a revelation, a new and reforming thought of Allah? Let’s abrogate change things...! Ibn Warraq notes (p. 99) Muhammad was thus enabled to “cast his scruples to the wind.” Before his prepubescent wife, Aisha, he went into one of his [possible] epileptic fits [called a ‘swoon’], and when Mohammad came out of it, he proclaimed, “Who will go and congratulate Zaynab and say that the Lord has joined her to me in marriage?” [Another Wow!!]
Surah-3:37 thus read, “So when Zayd dissolved her marriage-tie, We gave her to thee as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers about the wives of their adopted sons, when they have dissolved their marriage-tie. And Allah’s command is ever performed."
Please! How difficult it is to not be skeptical and see this as man [Muhammad] and not God allowing this provision? And so, it became that adopted sons of Muslim men are not the same as natural sons...! So be it, says Allah [or says Muhammad]. Dream-on Dude...!
Last example [one of the most interesting], Surah-2:256, “There is no compulsion in religion…”
Here many Muslims lay claims to this ‘verse’ as there stated position of freedom of religion. But they actually lie...!!! Which they are allowed to do [taqiyyah]; the compulsion to deceive is permitted if it is for the advancement of Islam, and Allah is the best of deceivers [Surah-3:54].
While Surah 9:3 states, “…Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters…” Oaths [no need to honor as needed for keeping Islam] in Islam, [in that same Surah-2:256] it goes on to proclaim “…the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error.” And the later verses make it obvious that the Quran, in labeling [infidels and those of another religion] those not of the ‘right way’, even Muslims that are not in full agreement with one another, the Islamists believe they are to be totally eliminated! It is their way or the highway, Islam or nothing at all. “Until…religion is only for Allah” [Surah 25:52].
Dealing with doubts
By now, it must become clear whose words are contained in the Quran. The Quran would easily raise doubts in the minds of Muslims or otherwise about its authenticity as the word of God. But extreme fear of the horrible punishments in hell as well as the longing for place in the eternal kingdom [paradise] keep the doubt away from the minds of most Muslims! Even then those Muslims, who may raise doubts, the Quran has a way to deal them too. The Quran says of such doubters [Surah 4:137]: “Those who believe then disbelieve, again believe then disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor guide them in the right way.” The author of the Quran is fearful that if an objective and open minded Muslim is exposed to other scriptures and to the writing of humanists and atheists, they would likely grow disbelief in the Quran. And not to give such an opportunity, Allah pronounces such grave warning.
The cry to all Muslims is then ‘remain ignorant to the truth, other truths, as you will be subject to death.’ The Quran does not want a Muslim to be a friend of a non-Muslim [Surah 9:23], resistance is more desirable [Surah 9:29], they are to doubt the Bible, and they are to view the Trinity as polytheism [Christians and Jews as pagans]. Even the Sufi [an Islamic religious sect] uses an intermediary [Muhammad] and has a center as their focus. From tribe-to-tribe, even, there is cause to call another an apostate! The Qur’an’s fear is stated in Surah 2:217: “for they [other than those accepted as Muslim] will not cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion…” If not Muslim then be prepared to die! “whomever”, the Surah continues, “turns back from his religion, then he dies…” That is the extremist view of Allah, but it is what many non-Muslims witness, that the apostates are killed, Christians in churches in Baghdad are attacked, al-Qaeda calls for the death of all Christians, church-goers are attacked in Pakistan, Egypt and Indonesia, a farm-women in Pakistan is sentenced to death after local Muslims accused her of making derogatory comments against Islam’s prophet, Shiite pilgrims in Karbala are slaughtered by Sunnis, a radical cleric says no permission is needed to kill Americans as they are from the “party of devils”, and so on... This is not what God would ever want of His beloved creations.[?]
God does not abrogate, because God's decrees are eternal. Obviously, it was Muhammad taking in the Qur’an; so arose the issue of abrogation as circumstances demanded new measures.
One last mention: In Surah 10:94. If this be the word of God, or Allah, then read it carefully. “But if thou art in doubt as to that which We have revealed to thee, ask those who read the Book before thee [reference to the Bible]. Certainly the Truth has come to thee from thy Lord, so be not of doubters.” Muhammad with this verse places “the veracity of his words on par with the authenticity of the Bible as it was available in the seventh century,” according to Ergun Caner (Unveiling Islam, Kregel, 2009, Grand Rapids, p. 231). Thus logically Muslims should accept the Bible. From Caner [p. 232]: “The Bible, if the Word of God, cannot be changed [cannot be abrogated]. God does not abrogate! If it were changed, then it was never the Word of God, something that is anathema to Islamic doctrine... How can the Word of God be corrupted by man? Is man greater than his Creator? Did the Creator allow the corruption for some mystical reason?” Why would the Creator, our God, ever change His mind? Is this what God would do? Ask yourself...
To Continue………….
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written by Peter Clemerson , November 23, 2010
written by Reed Wilson. , November 24, 2010
مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا ۗ أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّـهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
"Whatever sign I abrogate or cause to be forgotten, I bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things". (2:106)
The word Ayah, as used in the Quran, It could mean a miracle from God. It could also mean an example for people to take heed. The word ‘Ayah’ can also mean a sign. It could mean a verse in the Quran.
Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, we can easily spot that the word ‘Ayah’ in this particular verse could not mean “a verse in the Quran”. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran. This is because of the following reasons:
1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.
2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a Quraanic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it!
3- If the word ‘Ayah’ in verse 106 meant a miracle an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens
Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse:
"And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah’s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : ‘I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe’. When he brought them our Ayah’s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48
I hope my submission clarifies the confusion.
written by Machmoed , November 24, 2010
A changing mind is needed for progression, it's human. A god who canges his/it's mind means he or it is imperfect. This can not be the natural creator.
The reason for abrogation was invented in order to understand the qur'an as it gave more questions than answers. This means that it wasn't perfect and clear (as it claimes) wich implicates the imperfection of the author. Again we see God/Allah being portretted as a imperfect entity. This can not be the natural creator.
The Qur'an is not the word of the natural creator.
written by Clement-The Islam-Watch Pastor , November 24, 2010
There are more than 3 references all talking of abrogation of the divine creed I don't thing you are wiser than the body of Islamic Scholars that agreed that abrogation is undeniable doctrine in the Quran. The fact that Allah agrees to abrogate his word whenever he feels like doing so means that this Allah is not perfect and can not be trusted, like Yehwah who is not a man that he should lie or disolves covenant, threaties and obligations as Allah did in the Quran. This Allah can even deceives humans yet he claim to be almighty?
written by A. r khan , November 24, 2010
When Prophet Mohammed entered to Medina, he was depending on the support of its people. The Jews were many in Medina and its suburbs.
The prophet thought that Jews would give more authority to his prophethood because they had the Torah (Old Testament) and all the previous Prophets belong to Jewish. The Quranic verses which belong to the first two years of his life in medina are showing that how hard the prophet tried to convince the Jews that he is a prophet.
He said: the Jews, Christians and Muslim all will go to heaven.
He even changed the direction of the Qibla from Mecca towards Jerusalem, the same direction the Jews faced in prayer (Bukhari).
He ordered the Muslims to fast the Passover (Aashoora) on the day the Jews also fast (Bukhari).
Many time this happened that Jews objected on his wrong information about the earlier prophets as they had the complete criteria for any prophet. Therefore, he strictly had forbidden his fellows not to read any books.
When he realized that the Jews wouldn’t believe in him and their objections may turn people against him.
By now we read that how the prophet adds strange verses to Quran.
Once again he switched the Qibla, he said kill them, they (the people of books) all will go to the hell, take them out of Arab territories.
written by vbv , November 24, 2010
written by Garden Variety Troll , November 24, 2010
1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.Reed, you forget that the Qur'an was originally an oral tradition in Muhammad's lifetime before it was written down. That's why it could have been forgotten, some were also eaten by goats. Before you defend the Muhammad or the Qur'an make sure you know how it came to be.
This is how you stumble because you don't read the Hadith. Before you go on and argue with me... Muhammad certainly did not write the Qur'an as he was illiterate, and to claim the Qur'an as perfect even modern technology cannot afford you of perfect transcription that in itself is quite obviously wrong. The article above answers my claim that the Qur'an is full of contradictions.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 24, 2010
He didnt. Why should he? Read my poat to Lennard James, above.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 24, 2010
Khan Bukhari knows nothing. Ignore him.
written by Guy Macher , November 24, 2010
written by Reed Wilson. , November 24, 2010
"He should know that koran means recitation". Not in Arabic. Which dictionary?.
Muhammad was not illiterate. It is just false propaganda.The word ummi was used for non bani Israil people. Gentiles in English. It is wrongly translated as illiterate. The schooling of all the messengers of god is not recorded. It is not needed either.
written by Garden Variety Troll , November 25, 2010
Meanwhile, the people who were there with Muhammad you discredit saying they made them all up? Are you insinuating that the first Muslims were liars regarding their very own prophet?
You just destroyed Islam's credibility Reed.
written by Reed Wilson. , November 25, 2010
Good you asked. I give you a verse from Quran:
وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ ۖ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ
“You were not able to read or write prior to Quran; otherwise, the followers of falsehood would have tried to confuse the matter”. (29:48)
You write “Meanwhile, the people who were there with Muhammad you discredit saying they made them all up? Are you insinuating that the first Muslims were liars regarding their very own prophet?
I don’t know any such people. I don’t find any such people.
“You just destroyed Islam's credibility Reed”. Islam’s credibility is not my problem, Garden Variety Troll. I am not doing cosmetics!!
written by Garden Variety Troll , November 25, 2010
Good you asked. I give you a verse from Quran:Wow that's clear, or not.
وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ ۖ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ
“You were not able to read or write prior to Quran; otherwise, the followers of falsehood would have tried to confuse the matter”. (29:48)
Specifically it says, it Muhammad wasn't able to read or write (the) prior (books; Torah/New Testament) to Qur'an.
I don't know who you are kidding or lying to, yourself or everyone else.
I don’t know any such people. I don’t find any such people.That would be the people the hadiths were taken from.
“You just destroyed Islam's credibility Reed”. Islam’s credibility is not my problem, Garden Variety Troll. I am not doing cosmetics!!So, what are you exactly here for? World peace? You're better off convincing those people who call themselves Muslim.
written by duh_swami , November 25, 2010
And there is the exact problem with debating with Reed on the subjects presented on Islam-watch...He is not watching Islam...He is not interested in Islam, he has little to do with the Islam that is watched here...If you try to talk Islam to Reed, you are talking past him and he is talking past you...
'I don’t know any such people. I don’t find any such people'...If Reed believes that Mohammad was at one time a living walking person receiving revelations from Allah
that make up the Quran, then even Reed would know that Mohammad had a family, friends and followers...He just does not know who they are, because they don't appear in Quran...Or at least he claims he does not know who they are...But the reason he does not know is because they are not important in his philosophy...
Only the Quran and how he see's it is important to him...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 25, 2010
written by Amboyduke , November 25, 2010
The real point in all of this discussion is the fact that in a contemporary sense, Islam is displaying and actively promoting hatred, intolerance, sly sedition, violence and death, in literally all parts of the world.
This is not happening because a "few radicals" have hi-jacked this religion.
If this was true, the other majority of so called "moderates" would crush them like grapes and then move forward.
Also, the excuse that the "moderates" are afraid for their lives if they tried to remove these "radicals" has no merit either, as they could clean house and then make the necessary reforms in the Islamic doctrine to change the entire philosophy of their religion.
That is a ridiculously tall order and, quite frankly, not very realistic.
Trying to reach people through reasoning and debate, such as on this discussion group, is all well and good, but how does one change one's mind when dogma and stubborness are so ingrained into these people?
Reed, how can you read these comments on here and still defend your belief structure?
You certainly have that right, but good God man, how can you constantly defend this Religious/Political Ideological lunacy?
written by Reed Wilson. , November 25, 2010
How you say that?
written by lw1 , November 25, 2010
Two days ago in Yemen, Sunnis bombed a Shia religious procession killing at least 15 and injuring more people. Where is this hatred coming from? Islam. Why don't people who say that Islam is a peaceful 'religion', try to make these violent people and also Muslims who are not engaging in violence ( but who just keep quiet) understand that Islam is peaceful.
I look at Muslim countries and also at countries where Muslims have migrated to and find they are causing havoc in some of their own countries with terrorism, honour killings etc., but also in countries where they have settled -- the evidence is Islam is the most violent, repressive 'religion'.
written by lw1 , November 25, 2010
One text book shows how the hands and feet of thieves are chopped off. The Saudi government said it had no official ties to the part-time schools and clubs and did not endorse them. But schools have confirmed that Saudi Cultural Bureau, which is part of Saudi Embassy, controls them.
(Taqiyyah is allowed in Islam to further the cause of Islam)
written by Garden Variety Troll , November 26, 2010
i guess you are disturbed. You will say thank you when sober.That made my day. I rarely drink.
written by vbv , November 26, 2010
written by duh_swami , November 26, 2010
No god ever said that, but some men said he said it...So what we believe in are pre-thought thoughts of men who believed in the pre-thought thoughts of others...They said God issued decrees and wrote them in books...But did God talk to them directly? Only Moses and lunatics claim that...God made no attempt to reveal the Quran to Moses, or Moses would have been quoting verses...The writer of the 'burning bush' story was not there to hear the dialog
between God and Moses...He only has Moses account which may be faulty due to memory, and the intense experience of talking to a burning bush that identified itself as God...All of this, that religious beliefs are based on, is second hand thoughts of men who had their human frailties intact...At the base of it is the attempt to explain the unexplainable...This is a monumental waste of time, effort, energy and sometimes lives...The pre-thought thoughts of dead men are killing us...Stop the killing, create apostates...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 26, 2010
You write 'Stop the killing, create apostates". Are apostate not human beings?.Barking dogs can stop barking and start biting.
Women; Girls do not fight much and dont kill with weapons. Why not convert all of 6 billion into women to stop killing?
written by Reed Wilson. , November 26, 2010
Arab supremacy?? Are the Arabs sovereign?
written by duh_swami , November 27, 2010
Your right, they don't fight much, but they do fight with weapons, unless you don't count suicide bombers as weapons...They like every Muslim is 'obligated' to jihad in some way, woman's way of fighting is not usually with deadly weapons, but sometimes it is...
Arab supremacy?? Are the Arabs sovereign?
That is a two different questions...Politically they are not sovereigns...The only politically sovereign people in the world are Americans...If a Muslim happens to be a US citizen then they are a political sovereign...not otherwise...
Supremacy is every Muslims right by virtue of being a Muslim...Allah is the supreme God, the Quran is the supreme book, Mohammad was the supreme and last Prophet, Islam is the supreme religion...Arabs are a little more supreme than non Arab Muslims because Allah is biased in favor of Arabs...The bottom line of this racism, is that Islam is a vehicle for Arab supremacy...Of course, the non Arab world disagrees with this supremacist ideology, which causes conflict...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 27, 2010
وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ لَيْسَتِ النَّصَارَىٰ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ وَقَالَتِ النَّصَارَىٰ لَيْسَتِ الْيَهُودُ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ وَهُمْ يَتْلُونَ الْكِتَابَ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ قَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ مِثْلَ قَوْلِهِمْ ۚ فَاللَّـهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فِيمَا كَانُوا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ “
“The Jews say that the Christians are on nothing; and the Christians say that the Jews are on nothing; and they recite scripture! Whereas those who don’t follow any book (pagans), also saying the same. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection about that wherein they have been differing”(2:113).
There is irony in the verse and it also reflects that none of them including people who call themselves muslims are supposed to be same. Am I correct? I have given Arabic
written by Reed Wilson. , November 27, 2010
Please read:
There is irony in the verse and it also reflects that all of them including people who call themselves muslims are supposed to be same. Am I correct? I have given Arabic
written by duh_swami , November 27, 2010
If that's the case, no one needs the Quran...Or the Bible either because both of them are about more than God...If you just want God with no baggage, 'sit down, be still, shut up, and listen' (A. Crowley said that)...Shut up refers to quieting the little voice in your head that keeps telling you what you already know, it's called 'internal dialog'...This is called 'meditation'...If you do this, you do not need the Quran...In fact, the Quran just gets in your way of 'God with no baggage', so you should get rid of it...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 28, 2010
At one place Quran refers previous scriptures as Quran (I dont remember where). The concept of God, instructions, warnings, punishements and rewards are common among them.
Follow Vedas or any other scripture if one is prejudiced against Quran.
written by duh_swami , November 28, 2010
And rightly so since the Quran is fake from the start to finish...God read the Quran and laughed...No one really needs any 'scriptures'...Mentally stable people do not need a book to tell them how to act and behave...The Quran produces instability...apostasy restores it...
written by Reed Wilson. , November 28, 2010
“It is nothing but divine counsel for everyone in the world, for everyone of you who wishes to follow the right path (81:27-28)
“Say: 'Think, if this (Koran) was from God, and you disbelieved it, who is further astray than he who is in a wide schism” (41:52).
“And follow the good of what was revealed to you from your Lord before the punishment comes upon you suddenly while you do not perceive”. (39:55)
You write, “Mentally stable people do not need a book to tell them how to act and behave...The Quran produces instability...apostasy restores it”.
It is proved otherwise. I need book. Apostasy did not restore.
written by Machmoed , November 29, 2010
How come muslims do not believe in the judgement of Allah, that they fight for him as if he couldn't do it himself. This is because Allah never said or wanted others to believe one man or one group. Diversity is what life makes perfect. A system who wants to change diversity even in believing and thinking is working against his will and law. Believers in institutes are loosers of this world, that's for sure!
written by Tanstaafl jw , November 29, 2010
Disbelievers will enter hell with frantic with fear, knowing they will be tortured forever by Allah. 70:36, 44
Allah sent Noah to warn people about the painful doom he was planning to send. (It didn't work out well; Allah sent it anyway.) 71:1
Noah asked Allah to drown all the disbelievers. 71:26
The fires of hell will be fueled with the bodies of idolators and unbelievers. They will experience an ever-greater torment. 72:15-17
Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will dwell forever in the fire of hell. 72:23
Allah will take care of the deniers. He will tie them up, burn them in a raging fire, and feed them food that chokes them. 73:11-13
The last day will be a day of anguish for disbelievers. 74:9-10
Those who are stubborn to Allah's revelations will face a fearful doom. 74:16-17
Allah has appointed angels to tend the Fire and has prepared stumbling blocks for those who disbelieve. He sends some people (whoever he wants) astray. 74:31
Those who pay attention to this life and ignore the Hereafter will suffer forever in hell. 75:20-29
Allah has prepared chains, manacles, and a raging fire for the disbelievers. 76:4
Don't obey disbelievers. 76:24
Woe unto the repudiators on that day! 77:19, 77:24, 77:28, 77:34, 77:40, 77:45, 77:49
Depart unto that doom which ye used to deny." 77:29
Those who deny the revelations given to Muhammed will burn forever in hell. 78:21-30
written by Tanstaafl jw , November 29, 2010
Blame Allah! He made us disbelieve! Maybe you would do more good if you ministered to Allah, instead of innocent disbelievers!
written by Reed Wilson. , November 29, 2010
I dont see any such provision in Quran. He will himself punish.
They all will return to me and I will take their account (88:25-26).
written by Reed Wilson. , November 29, 2010
Tanstaafl jw, God is God. Justice is his attribute. He has enjoined justice on himself. The moment he is unjust, he ceases to be god. He has set principles for everything including guidance. We find them in his book. He will misguide only those who reject his message.
God is creator and lord of everything including truth and evil, guidance and misguidance. Whatever commences commences with his will.
We cannot be absolved of our responsibility of following his message. If we ignore his warnings we can enjoy this life with all his bounties with no fears. But it is risky.
Yourr interest in Quran is increasing day by day. May be due to my presence:) Good Luck!
written by Garden Variety Troll , November 30, 2010
... He will misguide only those who reject his message.from the Book whose God lies and
... lord of everything including truth and evil, guidance and misguidance. ...Your Allah must be in league with the devil.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie;
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints;
Citing the two verses above, one from the old testament, the other from the new testament. YH*H does not lie nor mislead nor does he confuse, anything else is attributable to the devil.
Ergo, Allah is the devil.
Whatever commences commences with his will.I wonder why God gave man free will.
written by Machmoed , November 30, 2010
According to Einstein everything that happens is because it is necessary. If all that happens is necessary, i don't know if it is really free will. Animals don't have this free will because they are not consious of their environment except what nature allowes them to do. Humans do have such capacity and the capacity to imagine and that's the difference between humans and animals. Animals didn't create a god or an image of God because they don't have imagination. Humans have the capability to imagine and that's why they created/imagined/imagine a god like they are told to imagine through parents, education etc etc.
written by Tanstaafl jw , November 30, 2010
written by Garden Variety Troll , November 30, 2010
According to Einstein everything that happens is because it is necessaryWhere in the world did you get that quote from Einstein? You just made it up didn't you?
Did you channel your inner Einstein? LOL. You took another quote (again) from a website and parroted it as your own didn't you?
Humans have the capability to imagine and that's why they created/imagined/imagine a god like they are told to imagine through parents, education etc etc.So you really believe that Deities are created/imagined/imagine a god, thank for your truthfulness.
If your mindset were representative of Muslims (I think it's called fatalism), I wouldn't wonder much why countries where Islam is a majority is so backward. On the other hand, why would you Reed and Muslims for that matter would even need Science, after all, whether you do something or not it's predestined anyways. Studying or not studying, researching or not, reflecting or not -- it's all predestined. Everyone make way for death as it's inevitable anyways.
Jesus was wrong anyways as why teach man to fish so he could live from fishing nor give him fish at all. We don't have free will, it's all predestined anyways.
That's what you're trying to say after all Reed.
Fatalism is a trait of the helpless and sometimes the hopeless, if it were up to others and Muslims themselves, Muslims should be left without help and with little hope.
Free will is the ability to manage your environment to effect a better outcome. Combine it with intellect and you have science, otherwise it's just evolution and chance.
... and for the record, Einstein said everything is determined. No contest with that, but each act and decision we make whether intentional or not creates a thousand different timelines with different actions aside from what you just made. The universe (including time) folds upon itself in some dimensions, it branches off, it merges, anything up to infinity is possible yet at the same time is determined by the actions you made. To say something is predetermined requires a great amount of knowledge of the future.
written by Garden Variety Troll , December 01, 2010
So you really believe that Deities are created/imagined/imagine a god, thank for your truthfulness.I thought you were Reed, I was in a hurry at the time sorry for the mistake. No wonder I got confused why Reed would suddenly revert to a non-religious point of view. (although I was confused I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but with a Quranic twist)
c'est de ma faute. Sorry to Reed for dragging his name into the discussion.
Not everything that happens, happens because it is necessary -- at best it happens in human interactions, you could even argue it with history. I would say however, that some things happen not because it is necessary but because it's just plain how things end up. You couldn't say the Big Bang happened because it was necessary, necessary is a word mostly associated with sentience, the need for something is attributable to emotions, to life, to thought.
I'm not a theoretical physicist, so do check up what I say against the standard theories out there.
as for how the "predeterminedness" [sic] of the universe, it is both true and false at the same time. Because some parts of the universe's timeline folds back to the very beginning of time, some don't, everything will, can and have happened. The best pedagogical example I can give is the Matrix trilogy (though it's quite inadequate, it's the best example I can give). At the very end of the trilogy, you see Neo talking to "the father" where "the father" shows him all the past interactions with the father in wall-to-wall monitors. In general you can deduce a lot of information about Chaos Theory through it.
I would also direct you to articles about chaos theory and particularly the butterfly effect. In the latter, there is a pattern (therefore a determinedness[sic]) but however no two simulations are ever the same.
If you could put two and two together you'd realize that the universe and therefore our fate is generally predictable, but not predetermined (in detail, at least in our dimension of space+time) -- we can estimate the general direction of our fate but not the details, everything else is clouded by entropy.
In any case, I was talking about God.
I would surmise that there are dimensions where the living beings are aware of their past and future unlike us because we only are aware of our past and the immediate present. In that case those beings don't have free will because they already know their past and future decisions.
I hope that was intelligible. Don't give in to fatalism, our free will is the entropy that makes us move forward and makes for a dynamic universe.
Again, my apologies to Reed and you Machmoed for attributing your comments to Reed.
written by Reed Wilson. , December 03, 2010
This is invaluable information. Could you please give source of it? I agree with you that the verses were revealed to Muhammad. Quran gives evidence. I would, however, need evidence for ‘shortly after arrival’ and ‘after six years’.
written by Reed Wilson. , December 10, 2010
The verse that abrogates they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh). Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim scholars , yet it has been widely misconceived by scholars belongs to Christianity and Judaism and now to scholars of Islamwatch Mr. Lennard James.
There are verses in Quran which claim that Quran has no abrogation/contradictions. Therefore there is no point to accept “Quran” as words of Allah if contains abrogation/contradiction. The verses are:
Alif Lam. Ra. THESE ARE MESSAGES of the divine writ, full of wisdom.
[10:64] For them, joy and happiness in this world, as well as in the Hereafter. This is God's unchangeable law. Such is the greatest triumph.
[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
It is the height of misconception that these scholars have come up with many cases of abrogated verses to the extent that they have formulated a whole science of the subject filling lengthy books and references.
written by lw1 , December 13, 2010
16.101 And when WE PUT A REVELATION IN PLACE OF (ANOTHER) REVELATION, -- and Allah knowest best what He revealeth -- they say : Lo ! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.
Almighty God is all-powerful, all-knowing --PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
Allah did not have that knowledge of the future and that is why he had to bring a BETTER revelation.
A soap powder salesman would bring a BETTER soap powder.
written by Machmoed , December 16, 2010
The best and most logical answers on these questions is that He never did or said such things we find in so called divine scriptures. It's a lie that's why!
Not all in the so called divine scriptures are lies, but when stating it's from God, it is all a lie!
written by Machmoed , December 19, 2010
Since religions and all existing systems we have are invented it is not that weird to say that it was found out because it was necessary. We also have to look at the time when it was found out or implemented.
Evolution works the same way. The bear for example turned into the polar bear out of necessity according to scientists in order to survive. It's about adapting to the environment, the faster, the better the chances for surviving.
