www.islam-watch.org

The ritual slaughter of animals is a worse evil than slaughtering them for food only, which I don't approve of either...Halal meat should be haram...Slaughtering animals for religious ritual is a very low form of black magick...Muslims are not the only religious group that does this, but they are the largest...it's all evil indulgence as far as I am concerned, I find it repulsive...

"It takes almost half an hour for a camel to breathe its last after its long throat is
incised at several places as hundreds of spectators, mostly youngsters, look on...I see
potential Taliban in all kids who gather with joy and amusement on the nooks and corners of the streets to watch the killing of sacrificial animals in the open, with their
helpless struggle and gush of blood spurting from their slashed throats. It is like a fun
show for them --- but also a first lesson of slow beheading of living beings. No wonder one day some of them do the same to other humans."

Duh I am against the random slaughter of veggies and fruits, people carelessy take bites out of innocent apples and toss them aside to wither and die, such a crime! Where is the humanity!!! Islam is not the biggest group of celebrators of animal sacrifice, and by the way the eat the animals and never waste them. The sacrifice is done to show the importance of the animal to the people. What about Thanksgiving in the states, that is a lot bigger than others, fattening up turkeys to be eaten and to gorge oneself beyond being filled, that is a crime. So you are a vegan, so am I most of the the year, but I never try to impost my views on others. Man has eaten animals since the beginning of time and will do until the end of time.

duh_swami. "The ritual slaughter of animals is a worse evil than slaughtering them for food only".

There is no such evidence that Muslim should slaughter animal as sacrifice on idul adha, in Quran.

Both rituals, sacrifice and idul adha, is heresy and amounts to following others which is إلشِّرْكَ which is لَظُلْمٌ عَظِيمٌmeaning climax of wrong doing.

Both festivals of Idul Fitr and Idul Adha have no roots in Quran. I looked for fitr meaning and could not find. The roots are probably in Bible where we find Id Fateer and Id fasah. These festivals were not introduced by Jesus.

I agree with you.

Duh I am against the random slaughter of veggies and fruits...

Your no vegan liar...

A fruit has no life of it's own...The life is in the seeds...An apple that falls from the tree becomes worm and bird food, it is the tree that is living it grows from the seed...Do I have to tell you everything?...Eating an apple just means you beat the worms to it...You hope...The worse thing is not to find a worm in your apple, the worse thing is to find half a worm in your apple...I bet you have found a half a worm in your apple lots of times...

Some vegies do have a life of their own, lettuce for instance...So if you are concerned about slaughtering lettuce, just pick a few leaves and don't pull up the whole plant...But I can't find anything in the Quran about eating lettuce at all, so I guess you are uneducated on the subject...as you are most subjects...

There is no such evidence that Muslim should slaughter animal as sacrifice on idul adha, in Quran.

How about hajj?

duh_swami"How about hajj?

I would tell you after review of my post.

duh_swami"How about hajj?

I would tell you when review of my post is over.

The quraish sacraficed animals and even their children to their deity. Abdullah, the father of Muhammad was almost sacreficed to to Hubal at the ka'ba. The ritual of sacraficing animals was done by mushrikoon and incorporated in islam like many pagan rituals. It has nothing to do with Muhammad or Allah. These entities were just used and the story around it is invented and borrowed. Nothing new, it paganistic like the ka'ba itself. The first thing Muhammad did was directing his prayers to Albait almuqdis. Why? because he knew ka'ba was nothing but paganistic. When the jews didn't believe him, he got rid of those paganistic inheritence by destroying the idols. The ka'ba is the extent of mushrikoon's believe worshipping stones. Still they worshipp and adore the black stone. In Northafrica they still believe in saints and adore them. This actually referes to their ancestrial religions.

"These festivals were not introduced by Jesus."

Why are you concern about Jesus not introducing it?
Are you a Christian?
As long as Mohammed introduced it is it not enough for you.

Who are you following Mohammed or Jesus? Are you beginning to show openly your resentment to the Pirate of Medina who metamorphosed into a messenger of a sort with his own version of Arabian paganism, now internationalized?

Common begin to use your brain to come out of that 7th century cultism.

If all apples of an apple tree is to fall under the tree, very few seeds will sprout, still fewer will grow as tree. Because, only few will have conducive condition like sunshine water etc. to grow. Apple tree would like humans and other mammals to eat its fruit and sow the seeds at suitable place so that it can multiply.

Clement-Islam-Watch Pastor.,
"These festivals were not introduced by Jesus." Why are you concern about Jesus not introducing it? Are you a Christian?

Very unchristian like questions. You showed up raging after long absence.

Bible says that Passover and leaven bread festivals were prevalent at the time of Christ. Jesus Christ was not Christian.

I've missed your insights and message. Hope you have been well.

To Reed and all those who are not familiar with Judaism and Christianity:
Pessah/Passover is the festival of UNleavened bread; not leavened bread. (There are no festivals of leavened bread.)

Pessah/Passover commemorates the passing of the Angel of Death, sent by YHVH, over the households of the Israelite slaves of Pharaoh while killing the first-born sons of the Egyptians. This event was the last of the ten plagues that YHVH put upon the Egyptians to force the Pharaoh to set the Israelite people free. This "celebration of freedom" holiday was the forerunner for the death of Yahshua (Jesus Christ) on the cross. Yahshua became the Passover Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

When Yahshua celebrated the Last Supper (Pessah/Passover) with his closest followers just before his death, he asked them to continue the tradition of unleavened bread when he blessed the bread and wine and told them, "Do this in remembrance of me."

Reed, as you are neither a Christian nor a Jew, but are instead a Muslim, maybe you should avoid commenting on subjects you obviously know nothing about.

That's strange!! Earlier Reed professed that he is a christian convert. How come he knows so much about Islam and lacks basic knowledge about his own religion? He also said he converted as he did not find salvation in Christianity but got the answer in Islam, or he is a true Muslim of the free right of deception at all levels of walk?

Reed is not your typical Muslim, nor is his Islam the one we are here to watch...Debating him about Islam is pretty much a waste of energy because you are not really debating about Islam, but his version of it...His version requires hogwash, or a coat of paint to disguise all the evil...But he gets a high grade for tenacity...he has one story, and pretty much sticks with it...

duh_swami. "Reed is not your typical Muslim, nor is his Islam the one we are here to watch...Debating him about Islam is pretty much a waste of energy because you are not really debating about Islam, but his version of it."

He says that he follows Quran and conveys Quran.

Yibel.I also missed Clement's insights, message and harshness all the more.

Thank you for clearing. I was not commenting rather telling that there was no animal sacrifice and no Idul Adha and Idul Fitr in Quran. I found festivals fateer and in Arabic translation of Gospel. That means that these festivals were there before Jesus Christ. You have also with me on this.

"Reed, as you are neither a Christian nor a Jew, but are instead a Muslim, maybe you should avoid commenting on subjects you obviously know nothing about."

How would I know then?

Dwito. "That's strange!! Earlier Reed professed that he is a christian convert."

How Reed say that. He has been saying that Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians etc any denomination, can be muslims keeping their brands. You will find muslims among all of them. Watch what Rabbi says:

Jewish Rabbi says Islam is the oldest religion
http://www.mikeadkins.com/article/jewish-rabbi-says-islam-is-the-oldest-religion/

Listen to this Jewish Rabbi who agrees with Islam. He confirms that Islam is the oldest religion on earth. This is true, one just has to realize that Islam pre-dates apostle Muhammad (p).

"He also said he converted as he did not find salvation in Christianity but got the answer in Islam, or he is a true Muslim of the free right of deception at all levels of walk?

Senility is prevailing on Reed. He forgets. You seem bet. 30-35 and he is 75. He doesnt rem'ber when and how he said that.

Yibel. Forgive me for hasty writing and as:


I found two festivals fateer and fasah in Arabic translation of Gospel. That means that these festivals were there before Jesus Christ. You have also agreed with me on this.

one just has to realize that Islam pre-dates apostle Muhammad (p).

No it does not...That is wishful thinking turned into a lie...St Augustine also said that there was never a time when there was not Christianity...That was also wishful thinking turned into a lie...If that actually was the case, Gabriel would have had nothing to talk to Mohammad about...

It's good that you treated Dwito Sotta as answerable. Dwito Sotta is obliged.

To Duh, - He says that he follows Quran and conveys Quran.

Yes, He does, until he fails to find support from - his version of it." Then runs away. His latest flight from besides repeated invitation establishes everything about 'follow'-ing and 'convey'-ing. No proof required any more .

His latest flight from "Islam's genocidal tendencies", besides repeated invitation establishes everything about 'follow'-ing and 'convey'-ing

Jewish Rabbi says...........
It's good that Jewish Rabbi became the latest prophet of Islam. Pl. explain the contradiction to that of Mohammed's claim of being the last prophet.

This is true, one just has to realize that Islam pre-dates apostle Muhammad (p).
His latest flight from besides repeated invitation establishes everything about 'follow'-ing and 'convey'-ing. And helpless humanoids self logical faithfulness pre-dates Islam.


He forgets...You seem bet. 30-35 and he is 75........He doesnt rem'ber when and how he said that.
Forgetfulness is Great, besides politicians, Reed Wilson and Dwito Sotta also enjoys the blessings.
How is betting(gmbling) respected in Quran? May Senility prevail on Reed.

This is true, one just has to realize that Islam pre-dates apostle Muhammad (p).

And helpless humanoids self logical faithfulness pre-dates Islam.

Thanks for the welcome. Actually I did not go anywhere; I just decided to watch from the sideline. Sometimes I like being silence especially if there is nothing to comment about when it is the same old usual argument that has been debated over and over again. People accused me of us Using IW for evangelism but you it is not easy to make a convert through an public debate such as IW, Most often than not The people that benefit from IW do not even contribute but they come to add knowledge and go back to make proper use of it.

These group are my inspiration o why I like to contribute to IW not for people like Reed Wilson, Du_Swami, Malem, Machmoed,who have harden their heart from hearing from the true God of this universe.

It will take the grace of God for such people to understand the Gospel of Christ and be converted and saved. All the same I used their depraved human ideology and philosophy to present the Gospel in its pure form. As Yibel observed all ceremonies and sacrifices find fulfillment in Christ. We don’t need animals sacrifices again Jesus has done it once and for all . God Bless you.
Cheers

contribute to IW not for people like Reed Wilson, Du_Swami, Malem, Machmoed,who have harden their heart

Judging again Clement? I thought you got past judging...You know when I call you a supremacist, religious bigot, it is not an insult, it is an observation...anyone who is super sure of their book and religion, and their opinions of it, and refuse to budge from that position, no matter what, is a religious supremacist bigot, by definition...Only a religious supremacist bigot would be interested in labeling others hard hearted because they don't see things exactly as you see them...Hard hearted people do hard hearted things...You have no evidence that anyone named ever did anything hard hearted...
Well, maybe Malman...He brutalizes camels and then eats them...Then he claims to be a vegan...
But other than him, you simply have no evidence to back up your claims...

I'm starting to believe you Clement. Last week i had a weird dream. Jesus came to me in my dream and told me a joke. I laughed my heart out and i laughed when i woke up and the whole day long. It is the best joke i ever heard. It's called how to become god. He is a magnificant joker....just brilliant!

I have no clue why the evangelists are so eager to convert others. What's their loss if I am not 'saved' by Jesus Christ. Jehadis will get 72 houris in their afterlife if they become martyr in the cause of Islam. But, what will the evangelists get? Sainthood from believers? Is that sufficient motivation for them?

An evangelist from America, named Samuel Stokes, came to India with a view to converting the benighted Hindus. But instead, after staying for a few years he converted himself as 'Satyananda Stokes'. So, I advise you to keep distance from the Hindus.

camels are vegans thus by consuming after ramadan i am in turn really jsut a vegan in the second degree.
man has and will always be a meat eater, although i am fighting each day for the rights of innocent carrots

The question is not whether you eat camel or carrots, but how you kill a carrot. Is there no scope for improvement in Islam. Should the primitive customs continue. Amazing how cars, planes electrical gadgets, grenades, suicide bombers have entered into lives of Muslims instead of continuing with camels fiire wood,and swords. Cruelty to any animal is bad. Even if hundred Gods and their side kicks (PROPHETS) say it is good

Archpagan, The Christian heaven is not the same with the Muslim heaven. The Evangelist is not craving the for a sensual or brothel type of paradise where women and wine are supplied in abundance. The Bible says 1Co 2:9 “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” The joy of salvation alone is enough for the saints of God preach this good news of salvation to all mankind. Islam has no good news for Mankind, no assurance of salvation either, men have to be coerced with Sward to believe and with promise of what men craved for in this life: women, wine and wealth in order to make them fight to the death. Christianity is not like that. Everything is predicated on love, not hate, war, or reward of any sort that man can imagine. It is enough that man is assured of escaping hell fire and the wrath of God.

Du_Swami I am not offended that you call me supremacist. God decided to reveal himself to mankind and his plan of salvation. You either key in or you key out. Your opinion is not important, after all, all you can know is about the Big Bang or revolution but you don’t know how it started and who cause it. I have no apology for being a supremacist because I preach the Message of the almighty God. Listen to this Message from almighty Jesus.

John 14:6 “ Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,”but by me. Lu 13:5 “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Joh 8:23 ”And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” Joh 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

duh_swami. "No it does not...That is wishful thinking turned into a lie...St Augustine also said that there was never a time when there was not Christianity."

It is not RW. The Rabbi and so many Rabbiyoon are observing that. Dont bother about their logic. Rejecting is easiest course.

Dwito. " It's good that you treated Dwito Sotta as answerable. Dwito Sotta is obliged."

Dwito Sotta! Is it your full name?

"Yes, He does, until he fails to find support from - his version of it." Then runs away. His latest flight from besides repeated invitation establishes everything about 'follow'-ing and 'convey'-ing. No proof required any more."

He does not invite. He conveys Quran where you might find invitation. It is always like that.

It is plain and simple that different men created different Gods because they wanted to explain the unexplainable. But the the three desert religions wanted to use this as a political weapon. Most of them were used as slaves by the Romans and Egyptians. That is why they invented their Yahweh, said Adam was the first man, blah blah blah because they were ignorant of what was happening in other parts of the world. India had its sages, poets, sculptors, artists even before Adam was born. Christians convinced a few rulers to convert to their version of God and established it through force. Mohammed wanted to fight against the tyranny of Jews (basically money lenders) and Christians and hence invented his own Allah and established his version through sword. He was a bit more intelligent than Christians and claimed he was the last prophet so that no person later could claim to be a prophet and change his dictum. It is surprising how Christians call Muslims zombies when people like Clement do not see the simple reasoning of the birth of religions. MY GOD IS GOD ALL OTHERS ARE DEVILS ATTITUDE.

Clement doesn’t talk like this impostor. I believe the posters here know the voice of Clement the IW Pastor.

There is no diagnosis of 'secondary vegan' Dr...You are either a vegan or you are not...You are not by your own admission...But since you are a Muslim, I don't expect you to be perfect...

God decided to reveal himself to mankind and his plan of salvation.

No he didn't, you did, along with legions of other religious extremists who think as you do...What you believe to be God's words become your own words...Alice Bailey in one of her many works, described spiritual illnesses that happen to some seekers who's own mind is fighting them...One of these illnesses is extreme egoism...All religious bigots have that in abundance...That's what makes the religious bigot obnoxious...What starts out as God's word in theory, ends up 'The Religion of Bigotry' in reality...All Muslim religious supremacy bigots share the same mental illness...In that, you have something in common with them...Is it possible to love God and not become emotionally involved? The egoist bigot, will never know the answer to that...

Your opinion, logic, philosophy and wisdom do not matter. Whoever reveal the germ of knowledge and wisdom in the Bible whoever he was, I think is worth worshipping.

It is better to worship such a wise and intelligent being than to bow down to stones, moon, sun, and stars as we see it today. Even if Jesus is not a historical figure, the wisdom and the principles of life and death has revealed in his teachings or his fiction make sense to mean than all the logic and philosophy of Du-Swami, of , the Machmoed, the Archpagans ,The REED and Malem of this world.

I am satisfied with what I got in Christ Jesus even if it does not have any eternal consequence, even if God tend out at the end that there was no God that revealed himself in Christ Jesus. Keep your belief and opinion to yourself. Cheers.

@ Malem
Actually no man has not been eating animals since the beginning of time ,and neither have other animals.This didn't really start until after Noah's Flood.This is before Genesis 1:29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. ,and this is after Genesis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

@ Archpagan

The only thing we lose if you don't become saved is your company in Heaven. You may think we are being self righteous and judgmental all you want ,but we are actually trying to get you to understand this for your own good.

big·ot   [big-uht] Show IPA
noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
You have this quality ,and you reveal it when you start hearing any opinion especially religious that goes outside your comfort zone. You feel anger and hate for those you disagree with. I feel empathy and compassion for those who reject God. This is the major difference between the two of us. I speak out against evil when I see it. You except in the case of Islam accept it and treat it as equally valid as that which is good and truthful.All views cannot be equally valid as all views do not have equal results. I did not run away, I left for the reasons I stated among others. I wasn't getting intelligent discussion I expected from you and others ,only logical fallacy ,after logical fallacy ,after logical fallacy. I was reading a few of the articles on here today ,and felt that a few comments needed to be addressed. I will be doing that from time to time. I have also been doing a great deal of research so that I might be more prepared during discussion.

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
You have this quality

Anyone can be a bigot on a number of subjects, the religious bigot is dangerous...You Clement, and the Muslim bigots are dangerous...I am intolerant of repeated religious opinions that carry no water, and are based on nonsense...it is not bigoted to be against evil and stupidity...

Your opinion, logic, philosophy and wisdom do not matter.

Not to you, of course, but you are a religious bigot who is intolerant of the opinions of others unless they fit your narrow narative...So i am not surprised you take that supremnist point of view...You and the recently resurrected Cerbrum are disgusting in your condemnations of others...That really sucks ...There is little reason to give either one of you two clowns any credibility at all...

And which of these "religious opinions" don't make sense and don't hold water? I am not interested in "religious opinions" I am interested in the truth. Something you have shown that either you are not interested in or don't fully understand. I am intolerant of evil ideas ,and of outright lies (some of these are obviously unintentional on your part so I will call it misinformation in your case) told repeatedly on this site. One of the major one's being that Christianity is somehow equal to Islam. I have studied every argument you have put forth and have put refutations to them all. However you ignored ALL of the data I gave you. You claim you have intellectual honesty. You should prove it by actually reading an argument against your beliefs. I read every link I have been given from every side of the issues discussed. You ignored them and showed your true colors in the anger you displayed when you no longer could defend your views. You may not lie ,but you do obfuscate ,use tu quoque ,ad hominem attacks ,and nearly every other logical fallacy there is. You harp on Reed and others for these things ,but it's somehow ok when you do it. Apparently the same goes with your intolerance and bigotry. I really don't care about being called a bigot supremacist fanatic. Supremacist is a false one as I don't put myself or my ideas higher than anyone elses. Bigot isn't really true ,but as far as lies and evil yes I am intolerant. Fanatic is perhaps the only one you can really have stick because I am a fan of what Jesus did on the cross not just for me ,but for EVERYONE. Also I haven't "condemned" anyone. You have put me into your own stereotype of the judgmental self righteous Christian hypocrite. I will admit right now that I AM NOT better than anyone else. My ideas aren't greater ,my intelligence isn't higher , I'm not the strongest. In fact I don't have any qualities that could really be considered higher than anyone else's. I haven't condemned anyone and I'm not about to because I am a sinner just like everyone else and am in need of God's grace. I will however point out a false or harmful idea when I see one ,and even though I'm obviously not getting anything through to you (especially on those very odd claims about Genesis being myth) there are others and I might be able to get them to see some of the truth. It might be something small ,but who knows in years to come something I said on here might impact somebody's life for the better. Maybe this won't happen ,but I am certainly feeling led to comment on this site and that's exactly what I'm going to do.

I am not interested in "religious opinions" I am interested in the truth. Something you have shown that either you are not interested in or don't fully understand.

I only have to read a few lines into your self congratulatory book, to stop reading it...

You now claim the supernatural ability to know how much 'truth' someone else possesses...Will your self wallowing never stop? How obnoxious...

I feel honored by getting a place in your post. Actually, I have been longing for your presence and getting an answer to my post addressed to Clement, whose response was unsatisfactory. But, I really had no idea that like Clement you have been keeping watch on the proceedings from the wings.

You can not decide what is good for others. Let others decide what is good for them. I will not miss your company in heaven, provided you follow ‘Dharma’, i. e. a universally acceptable human values, whatever be the name of your God or prophet. It is impractical to achieve harmony in the world through uniformity. For achieving harmony you have to honor and accept pluralism. This is amply illustrated by the fact that Christianity itself is divided into various denominations; enmity and rivalry among them are well-known. An Irish father was agitated to learn that his daughter intended to become a protestant, but only regained his composure, when she clarified that she actually said ‘prostitute’ not ‘protestant’.

The word ‘bigot’ has its origin in the words ‘By God’, which early Christians of Anglo-Saxons descent frequently uttered. The Pagans used those words to mean a person who is intolerant of other’s views. When Christianity prevailed in England, ‘By God’ had to transform into ‘bigot’. Similarly, the word cretinous, meaning mentally retarded person has its origin in the word ‘Christian’.

Nobody can claim monopoly of truth. You will make a fool of yourself if you do so. EKAM SAT, BIPRAH BAHUDHA VADANTI (Truth is one, the learned say it differently)

Sorry my previous post "Simple reasoning" carried the name of the writer as clement. It was addressed to Clement. By mistake I put "clement in the Name box. It should have been in the title block.

I never claimed a monopoly on truth or decided what is right for others ,but Jesus did. Jesus is THE way ,THE life ,and THE truth. Not one of many ways ,or many life's ,or many truths.God has always communicated His will in a way that is simple enough for a child to understand ,but profound enough for the greatest philosophers.He did the same with His plan for our salvation. God has outlined what is best for us in His Word the Bible ,and through Jesus Christ. Your histories of these words are far simpler than what they really are. For bigot that is only one theory for it's origin including the word visigoth whom the Christians found to be intolerant pagans. As for cretinous it's actually from what I read from a battle between the Roman Catholic Church and other Christians. It also may have just been applied to a certain people with a certain disease to make them more respectable in spite of their appearance. I said I am interested in truth not the owner. If Duh had looked more carefully at my post I was only saying that if he were truly interested in real truth he would look at things from all sides. It's still possible to do this without giving up your own beliefs. I have seen many sites of different beliefs and talked with many people who oppose the salvation of Jesus ,but I have still retained my faith. It's hard seeing so many people so hostile to what I believe ,but I do it anyway. The only way to find truth is to look for it. The Bible has never failed this test and I suspect it never will. Perhaps you have seen a painting with an anvil surrounded by broken hammers ,if you haven't look it up. The anvil represents the Bible and the hammers represent man's fallible ideas.The Bible has stood the test of time and is still relevant today in all of the areas of one's life.So many people are only taught what to think and not how to think. I find this true nearly everywhere I go.These denominations are broken up not because of uniformity ,but because of their sinful nature ,and man made ideas that have crept in as doctrine. If everyone followed the words of Jesus this world would be in complete harmony. Your quote says truth is one this is correct His name is Jesus.

Thank you for your post. I have fully understood your views but not at all convinced. You do not claim monopoly of truth for yourself , but you do it for Jesus Christ. You have debunked all Christian denominations as sinful, founding in the way another denomination of your own. In effect, like our dear Reed Wilson you fancy yourself as a sub-prophet of Jesus Christ. Because, the Bible as interpreted by you, is infallible and contains all truth.

Spirituality is the science of the inner self and mind. If you say -'Jesus is THE way ,THE life ,and THE truth', then it would be as ludicrous as saying Einstein's theory contains everything of science. So, if you are a real seeker after truth you must look beyond the obsolete morass of bible. Humanity progressed by looking beyond the Bible during the era of Renaissance and Enlightenment.

As for my religious opinion, I strongly feel that spirituality should be confined to private domain. Bringing spirituality to the public domain is the most dangerous thing on earth. Really, there are many facets of truth as scientists are on the verge of discovering the 'God Particle'.

Archpagan. "In effect, like our dear Reed Wilson you fancy yourself as a sub-prophet of Jesus Christ."

It is mistake of Reed he does. There are no prophets or concept of prophet in Islam. There is apostle and messenger. The role of messenger is specified and limited.

The messenger's duty is not to teach. The scope of teacher is acquired by the Quran itself. We all can be called messenger when conveying the message. Apostle is status of the chosen messengers. God is not designating apostles any more.

You will be doing a favor if you point him out where he was crossing his limits.

There are no prophets or concept of prophet in Islam.

Haha...Maybe not in your Islam, there are none, but there are lots of them in the other Islam...

In psychiatry, the word 'schizophrenic' means 'spit personality'...Since it is clear by your writings and explanations that there are two Islams, yours and the other one...This would mean in psychiatry that either you are schizophrenic or Allah has a spit personality...One type of schizophrenic is paranoid...The paranoid is the most dangerous and most likely to kill or injure someone...reading all the paranoid verses in Quran lead to the inescapable conclusion that Allah is a paranoid schizophrenic...that's if you can believe the Quran...You do not seem particularly paranoid...Your schizophrenia is more in the 'simple schizophrenia' mode, where you are not paranoid, don't hear voices, don't giggle or laugh inappropriately, but you are still schizophrenic...the simple type...Your Islam does not fit the model of the dangerous paranoid model of the 'other' Islam, but because it comes from the same book there is some overlapping...

I am not "debunking" all Christian denominations. I am only pointing out that all denominations ,and all people for that matter, have a sinful nature. All mankind is sinful and in need of a saviour. This is the foundational message of the entire Bible. This sinful nature is the source of all of the problems in our world today. It can be seen in every aspect of life. I have it just as much as anyone else. I prefer not to call myself by any of the Christian denominations because they all have what is known as legalism. I was raised attending a Baptist church. One of their legalisms (in some of their churches anyway) is that it is sinful to dance. This is not something from the Bible. In fact David ,when celebrating something God had done for him and his people in Israel ,danced until his clothes fell off. Now of course I'm not saying you should dance that way ,but David was not convicted of sin in this matter. In fact it was his wife who got in trouble for reprimanding him in his worship of the Lord. Since all denominations have these kinds of things I prefer call myself non-denominational. There are churches that do not pick one denomination out there ,but allow anyone of any denomination in. They are all Christian and I count them all as brothers and sisters in Christ. The thing sinful in this case is the division and legalisms.

I do not claim myself as any kind of prophet or messenger or apostle. I am simply a follower of Christ trying to be what the Bible calls "salt and light" for the world( well at least what little I can reach anyway). The Bible is not for individual interpretation not mine not yours. You are supposed to read the Bible as it was written. There is poetry ,prophecy ,history ,and much more in the Bible. The only way to truly understand these things is to read them as they are ie. poetry as poetry ,history as history, prophecy as prophecy. This is the real meaning of taking the Bible literally. These different types of literature need to be understood as such. Genesis ,which is the foundation of the Bible and all of it's subsequent doctrine especially the cross and resurrection needs to be read in this light in this case being history starting with Adam and Eve. You say that you do not want religion in the public square then you should be fighting against the school systems ,because they have been overrun with a religious ideology. This ideology is known as Secular Humanism and is being taught as the only valid worldview in schools across the world. Darwinian Evolution is the foundation of this religion and is taught as fact. Secular Humanism is a religion ,and is recognized by the state as such yet it is being taught in schools with it's foundational message of millions of years of death ,destruction ,and meaninglessness. This message is extremely dangerous and this countries slide into moral decay is being extremely influenced by this dangerous message.

I was reading some of the things I posted and have seen that some of them may not come across the way I intended. A denomination isn't a bad thing it's where those who believe the Bible in the same way can get together and worship. The fact that they have a doctrine is a good thing. This helps to show what is good Biblical doctrine against heresies.If someone is looking for a church they can easily look at the doctrine and at the Bible ,and see if they match up.Mostly denominations do this. When it comes to the main part of doctrine most denominations are nearly identical ,the differences are usually minor like the above mentioned view on dancing. A denomination also has the ability that comes with being in a group. They are able to do things that a single person just can't do. Also when I say that the Bible isn't of personal interpretation I mean that the Bible is written in a way that the message is clear for everyone to understand (except some of the prophecy which is admittedly very hard to understand for someone who hasn't studied the issue ,but the core message of the Bible can be understood by anyone) ,and that the things like Duh's "symbolism" in Genesis are not the kinds of things you get when you read the Bible in the way it's meant to be read.

I have a question ,how is my trying to help people by giving them the Gospel dangerous? I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head ,I'm not strapping bombs to myself and blowing things up ,all I'm doing is talking to people in calm manner trying to have a meaningful discussion about the truth. Another question. If you KNEW you had the truth about something as important as someone's eternal soul ,wouldn't you want to tell others? Wouldn't you want to save them from an eternity of suffering and separation from their Creator? Even if it was simply something that could save someone's physical body from death wouldn't you want to tell them? If you had this information that could save lives wouldn't it be horrible from others point of view if you tried to just keep it for yourself? Take the case of a drug addict. You know that they are going to die if they keep taking drugs ,and it's also making their lives and the lives of their friends and families miserable. When that happens people usually have an intervention. They talk to the drug addict and point out the problem. How does the drug addict often respond? They often get angry and tell people things like "it's my life and I have a right to live it the way I want" or "you can't push your morality on me". If the drug addict keeps up this attitude he or she will eventually die a miserable death that crushes everyone who cares about them. This is the exact same case as someone who is addicted to sin. Could you live with that if you had the information to give them ,but you didn't even try? I am in the same position as the people who start an intervention ,and I receive those exact kind of responses all of the time. However there are a few people who do see how much their lives are in a state of decay ,and that they are headed toward death. These people end up changing their lives ,and always for the better(as long as they received the whole truth about what Christianity is. Sometimes people hear the idea that a Christian will always be happy ,healthy ,and wealthy. This message is often called the "Prosperity Gospel" and is not based on sound Biblical doctrine.).

and that the things like Duh's "symbolism" in Genesis are not the kinds of things you get when you read the Bible in the way it's meant to be read.

That's right, the Bible was meant to be read by simpletons who have no idea about messages behind the messages...It is simply a case of you throwing the baby out with the bath water...
and then denying there was any baby to begin with...When Jesus said don't throw pearls before swine, he was talking to me about you...

No the Bible was meant to be read in context. This is something you violently reject. When Jesus spoke about " pearls before swine" He was talking about the Gospel and it's message of salvation and redemption being presented to people who will never believe the message regardless of the fact that all of the evidence supports it. You reject this evidence before even looking at it. Which is the exact attitude Jesus was describing. Besides your "symbolism" doesn't match up with the facts. You have a few statements taken out of context then take them as "proof" of the symbolism you mention. There is symbolism in the Bible ,but the ones you have mentioned are not there. Your versions of symbolism fall flat on their face every time. Yes there is some symbolic prophecy in Genesis ,this being one of the primary ones.

Genesis 3: 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The symbolism here is that the serpent is Satan ,and that the "seed of the woman" is Jesus. Jesus crushed Satan' head when He died on the cross and rose from the dead. The bruise being (in the way we see it) the temporary suffering and death of Jesus ,and the crushing of the serpents head being Jesus' conquering of sin and death. This is the real message of the Bible. The whole Bible is consistently about creation ,degeneration (the fall of man) ,regeneration (the salvation Jesus offers) ,and consummation (This is what everything is leading up to and is described heavily in the book of Revelation) .

I thought we got rid of bible lessons when you left...Save all that sales pitch for someone who might buy your product...You should be directing all that at Muslims...

The administroter is working overly hard today...
He/it has grabbed about four posts today...

Basically, no bible lessons please...

To Reed Wilson:

You mentioned that you found two festivals "fateer" and "fasah" in Arabic translation of Gospel, and you, therefore, concluded that these festivals were there before Jesus Christ.

As I am not familiar with these Arabic words for festivals, could you please explain what these festivals are all about. By "Gospel" I am assuming that this is an Arabic translation of one of the four Biblical New Testament Gospels. If so, which one?

duh_swami. "Since it is clear by your writings and explanations that there are two Islams, yours and the other one."

The 'other one' is not Islam. I hope you dont have any problem.

Yibel. "I am assuming that this is an Arabic translation of one of the four Biblical New Testament Gospels. If so, which one?

You are right. I will look for you. Please tell me which Gospel is Gospel of Jesus Christ or the Gospel which Jesus mentions in Mark?

The 'other one' is not Islam. I hope you dont have any problem.

That's what I said, two Islams, yours and the other one...All Islams are evil, yours included...

You're the one always talking about symbolism in the Bible. I showed you some of the REAL symbolism that actually there. You say a lot of things about the Bible and some of them are blatantly false ,as do others on this site. "Iiki" for example claimed that the God of the Bible was primarily a "war god". This is not His primary characteristic. His primary characteristics are truth ,love ,mercy ,grace, ,and justice. One of the reasons I am here is to clear up misinformation and lies. You made a comment at the top denouncing the sacrifice of animals being worse that the killing of animals for food. What is your opinion when a sacrifice is used AS food? This is how they did it in the OT and in various other ancient cultures. Do you even know the real reason for the sacrifice of animals in the Bible? Did you know that it almost stopped the entire world over when Christianity started to spread? For Christians there is no need of animal sacrifice as there was the need during the OT and up to the time of Jesus crucifixion. Animal sacrifice was the only way for a person to be forgiven his sins in the OT. Since Jesus sacrificed Himself for the sins of all past ,present ,and future there is no longer a need for this practice. The Bible says that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins" Some more symbolism in Genesis involves when God killed some of the animals to make clothes for Adam and Eve. He did this to show that the only way to cover up sin was with blood. Animals however were imperfect sacrifices and were needed on a regular basis. Perfection was the only way to truly pay the penalty for all sin , so was the need for someone who is truly infinite while still being truly human. This way He could pay the penalty for sin which is an infinite one due to the fact that sin is an infinite crime ,but being human was necessary because of the fact that because humanity sinned humanity must pay the penalty. This all culminated in Jesus Christ. As people were scattered from the tower of Babel people forgot the truth about the only real God ,and began moving further and further away from Him. Oh and these aren't just Bible lessons they are history lessons. I am not selling any product and I'm certainly not making any money (which is what the selling of a product is designed for). I am trying to have intelligent discussion with those who are willing about things that really matter. You periodically lash out at me for doing so. Why all this anger and animosity toward me? You seem to know a lot about logical fallacies and debate ,you should know that once you lose your temper on a subject it shows that you are backed into a wall with no way out. We see this on a constant basis from random posters on this site saying that we will all burn in hell for talking this way about Islam. I didn't come to this site for that. I came to speak calmly and intelligently about various subjects.

Many thanks. I wish you become the Archbishop very soon. You have put up your belief in the simple language and have not tried to prevaricate like our Reed. But try to be brief as other people are getting bored with your theological discourses. Man is not born with any inherited sin. Rather, we are told that we all are son of the divine (Amritasys Putra). We encounter sufferings in life because of our cravings and carnal desires and because we forget the fact that we are part of the supreme soul, not the flesh and blood. When one internalizes such concept there will be peace and tranquility in life.

The highest aim in our life should be union with God, the Supreme Being. There are three separate paths to achieve that goal- cognition (jnana yoga), devotion (bhakti yoga) and karma (karma yoga). The first one requires study, meditation and austerity which are suitable for ascetics only. The second one is the easiest requiring unreasoned (ahaituki) love for God and suitable for common people. But it runs the risk of ridicule by others. ISKCON people who dance and sing holy names on the road follow that path. The third one requires diligent performance of one’s duty in the life without expecting any return and is suitable for the secularists, atheists, agnostic et al. Union with God means eternal bliss far more intense than worldly pleasures and liberation from the cycle of birth and death.

Dragging spirituality into public domain causes the ill-effects that we see now in 59- Islamic countries and saw in the history of medieval Europe. It will invariably lead to stifling of dissents and killing of heretics and apostates. Christians have actually been ‘saved’ by the wisdom of their Greco-Roman ancestors which was too great to be obliterated by the obscurantist church.

You seem to be so eager to hide from non-believers like me the rivalry among various Christian denominations. They vie with each other to harvest ‘souls’ and even trade charges of ‘poaching’ on their ‘sheep’. Actually, the churches enjoy some sort of power and pelf in this temporal world among their laity and that is the real motive behind their eagerness to save other’s soul. No altruism is involved here. They invest money to harvest souls so as to earn more return in the future.

What’s wrong there in school system? Doing social good is the duty of the state not of the church. Duty of the church should be to look after the spiritual well-being of the people selflessly. Hindu gurus do not poach on each other’s sheep. They are supposed to keep number of their disciples at a level so as to be able to look after the need of all.

Secular Humanism has no prophet or holy book as such. But the UN charter of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights can very well be considered as the ‘Holy Book’. We Hindus more or less agree with that document as it is very much in consonance with our concept of dharma. But, I have reservation against ‘freedom to propagate religion’ as understood by the West. Because, it is causing cultural genocide of the tribal people in the world. In Europe, there is none to call him/herself Goth or Saxon. In 50 years hence, there will be none to call him/herself Eskimo in the Greenland. Everyone will be known as Christian or Greenlander.

I am not trying to hide anything. All mankind is sinful and therefor all man made organizations are prone to corruption. This even happens when the original intent is good. Power hungry ,greedy people will try to take anything over if it means more profit. In schools people are being taught things that are false along with the religious aspects of Secular Humanism. This is recognized as a religion by my country ,and supposedly all religion is to be taken out of schools yet I find that there is religion being taught there. Only one ,and it's being touted as the only valid view. One doesn't need a prophet or holy book to be religious. One can be religious in just about anything. Social good isn't the duty of the state it's the duty of every citizen. The government in my country is very corrupt ,and they are using things like welfare to keep people under their thumb. I think even Duh would agree with this point about what's currently going on in America. As for looking after the spiritual well being of the people selflessly that is what I'm trying to do here. I'm not trying to "poach" any sheep. I'm trying to do what I am commanded to do by Jesus. This is called the Great Commission and is taught in Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
This is what every Christian should be trying to do. Many are too afraid of doing so ,because of the dangers involved (especially in Christian hostile countries). That is where missionaries come in. I would like to find out where you got the idea that Christians were saved by the wisdom of the "Greco-Romans". The inquisitions which is which I believe you are mentioning here was done by the Roman Catholic Church ,which had at this point been appointed as the state religion ( something I highly disagree with) ,and had become thoroughly corrupt. This started to change however once the Bible was translated into English ,and people could read what was in it for themselves.

I would like to go into a little more detail as to the things being taught in schools. Moral relativism is perhaps one of the most dangerous of the concepts being taught. I'm sure you've heard of it. It teaches that everyone individually decides right and wrong. This leads to chaos and destruction. If everyone decided right and wrong for themselves what's to stop someone from deciding that murder is right? What's to stop them from deciding that since survival of the fittest drives evolution ,and that since they are more fit than everyone else that they just can't go and commit genocide? Saying that the majority decides right and wrong puts one down just as slippery as a slope. Hitler was able to convince Germany that killing the Jews was right. Mohammed was able to convince the Arabs and even people still today that killing anyone who does not convert is the right thing to do. People are being taught in schools that their life is just a random chance process that developed over millions of years up until now. This destroys the purpose of life. I'm sure that you agree that life has a purpose? People are being taught these things and in the case of Darwinian Evolution ( which from now on I could like to clarify that only the molecules to man evolution also known as "macro-evolution") has been proven by science and is a fact. (This has not been done because science cannot prove this to be true.) This is the foundation on which the education system is now being built. Rather than everyone was "endowed with equal rights by their Creator" people are being taught that we are just the results of purposeless random chance ,and that in a sense (due to the survival of the fittest which is something Hitler based his whole campaign on) might makes right ,and no one can tell you you are wrong. This is affecting every facet of life ,and America along with all western civilization is falling into moral decay. Right now the "might" is in the hands of the Secular Humanists who are indoctrinating everyone they can to think like they do. School was supposed to teach you how to use your mind and think ,not someone's idea of what to think. If you truly believe that it is dangerous to have religion in the public square then you should be fighting the school systems that use this dangerous religion in their text books. Before I had to leave public school for health reasons I saw two things. 1 The children in younger grades were being taught less and less ,and 2 this indoctrination increased heavily with each grade. Do you really believe that there is no absolute right or wrong even in the case of murder? If there is absolute right or wrong here then isn't it possible that there is absolute right and wrong in other areas of life? Perhaps you should think on this one for a while.

Perfect example of reverse evolution.... Man to monkey. Defies darwinism...

'Christians have actually been ‘saved’ by the wisdom of their Greco-Roman (Pagan)ancestors'.
By that I meant to say that Europeans achieved industrial, social and technological progress by attaching more importance to science and philosophy of the ancient Greece and polity of the ancient Rome, than to Biblical truth. Yes, we must have some purpose in life, but we must not work at cross purpose. There might be some other recognized divinity who told "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of---". So, we must avoid head-on collision. Give passage to others.
By 'school system' I did not mean public school, I meant school of philosophy. Public School scenario in India is no better. All barbarities of medieval Muslim rulers have been whitewashed. Rather, the impressionable youngsters are forcefully taught that Most Hindus have come to India from an unknown distant land.
I wish you every success in your mission.

malman do you eat halal or jhatka carrots

Considering the fact that modern science was founded by men who believed in an orderly God who created an orderly universe ,and were deeply concerned with Biblical truth , I tend to doubt that. In fact the man who invented the scientific method Francis Bacon was a Biblical creationist. Many great men of science felt the same way. It would probably be best to look at the whole book ,but I do have a review of a book that shows the main points , with a little deeper digging you can see which is the truth your idea that pagan Greco-Romans saved the church or that the church saved them ,and consequently Europe. http://www.answersingenesis.or...n2/origins
This site has a list of "Creationist Scientists" ,both present and past. When you look at the "past" list I'm sure you will recognize some names.
You earlier said that the Bible was obsolete ,it is not. The Bible is relevant for all people of all ages in all periods of time. Have you studied the Bible ,or have you written it off because of what others have said about it? Particularly the NT and the teachings found within. Surely the Golden Rule hasn't lost it's relevance today has it? It teaches that one should "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Not many people practice this anymore. Look at what Jesus and His followers taught and try and imagine what things would be like if these things were followed today. Would things be better ,or worse? If they would be better than surely they are relevant if they can improve our way of life right?

As for avoiding "head on collision". This is the opposite of what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to spread the truth regardless of personal interests and regardless of hurting someone's feelings or "stealing their flock". Christianity though divided by denominations is still in essence one flock. I am to try and add to that flock. What you're not getting here is that only the Bible contains pure truth. There is no other book ,no other spiritual path , no other set of beliefs that will allow one to be saved. One who is not saved is literally on the highway to hell ,and without someone to tell them they are going the wrong way will end up there. C.S. Lewis wrote that those who end up in hell "will" to be there. It is their willful rejection of God that is the problem. We all start with this willful rejection. This is called "original sin". Everyone even from the time they are a child knows how to do things that are wrong ,and always need discipline to keep from doing these things. Sin is the cause of every bad thing in this world ,and humans starting with Adam ,and continuing until the last days continue to sin. God being loving and merciful provided a way out though. He came as Jesus and took the punishment that we deserve ,and offers us His forgiveness. All you have to do to obtain this is to turn to Him and ask. He won't turn anyone away who sincerely asks. We are all going to die some day ,and we all deserve the penalty of death and of hell. The big question here is will you continue to reject God ,and His offer to live ,or will you continue to reject the One who made you and be separated from Him forever? This from a Christian perspective is the important thing. Your body is only temporary your soul eternal. You don't get a second chance at life. We are lucky that God was merciful enough to allow us to exist at all. He was also merciful enough ( I know this doesn't sound merciful at first glance ,but bear with me) to take us out of the Garden of Eden and out of reach of the Tree of Life (the fruit of this tree would make us immortal). By having death as the punishment for sin we don't have to stay in this cursed world forever and suffer for eternity here. He then gives us a second chance ,as long as we are still alive we can turn back to Him and be forgiven. Without death we would have no way to enter back into the perfect relationship that Adam and Eve shared with God. Therefor even death is a merciful punishment. Sin is high treason against our Creator. This is an infinite crime committed against an infinite being ,therefor the punishment is infinite. The penalty thankfully though has been paid by Jesus on the cross. This gives us the chance to return into that perfect relationship we gave up so long ago.

http://www.freedocumentaries.o...filmID=126

@ The cerebrum type at their best

"You are right. I will look for you. Please tell me which Gospel is Gospel of Jesus Christ or the Gospel which Jesus mentions in Mark?"

Looking forward to learning about the festivals you mentioned: "fateer" and "fasah."

In answer to your question: The word "Gospel" is Old English meaning "Good News."

There are four Gospels in the New Testament of the Bible. These are the Gospels According to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Each contains versions of the events in the life of the Jewish prophet Yahshua (aka Jesus Christ) who came to deliver the Word of YHVH and bring the possibility of salvation to all of mankind. They all contain Yahshua'a teachings and sayings as recorded by those who either knew him personally, or talked to people who knew him personally.

Yahshua said that he came to deliver the Good News (Gospel) that the Kingdom of
YHVH was at hand (that is, salvation for mankind). Many people are unable to
accept that humans are not worthy of eternal life in their present level of evolution. Humans still have a carnal nature, are self-centered and cruel, and lack the self-control necessary to be given eternal life.

Yahshua came to help humans rise above their present imperfect state and obtain a
higher spiritual plane. Muhammad, on the other hand, only appealed to mans lowest level (avarice, vices, lies, deceit, murder, rape, pillaging, warfare, stealing, and preying upon the weak) and he, then, raised these evils to the divine with his promise of eternal life in a brothel in the sky. He was Amalek reincarnated, and his was the religion of the Amalekites.

Over the centuries, humanity has had plenty of examples of what happens when imperfect humans get total control; the latest example being Islam.

I am not nor ever have been a Roman Catholic. I detest these things. They are a permanent stain on all who call themselves Christian. People who do the things on the documentary you brought up are the sickest of perverts. You are making a mistake in how you judge this situation however. You are supposed to judge a belief by what it teaches not how some people fail to live up to these teachings. Perhaps before judging me as one of those sick people perhaps you should instead look at what the Bible actually teaches. Something to think about. Think before you type next time.

In addition to Yibel's comment ,humans can never achieve salvation on their own. This is why Jesus had to be crucified. We can never work our way to heaven. Our good works from even what we would consider the best of people are considered by God to be "filthy rags". Only perfection can enter into God's presence ,and no matter what we do we can never achieve perfection. Only Jesus was perfect ,and He offers to cover up our imperfection with His perfection. By doing this we become acceptable in God's presence. God cannot allow sin near Himself. The good news or "Gospel" is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sin so that by trusting in Him ,and asking for forgiveness ,we don't have to pay this penalty ourselves. No sin is too big for God to forgive ,and no sin is too small to separate us from Him. They all equally separate us from God ,and all equally can be forgiven by Him. The sad thing is that people choose to continue in their sin and reject their Creator. There isn't a way to get this forgiveness after you die. By then it's already too late ,and you would be separated from God for all eternity. We all deserve this kind of separation from God ,but it doesn't have to be that way. It's a simple choice that everyone has to make. One chooses either life or death. As a Christian I have chosen life ,and encourage others to do the same. This is the biggest reason I'm on here. I simply want to show people the path back to life ,and a relationship with God. We are all dead in our trespasses and sin ,and we all need a savior. I hope and pray that someone somewhere reading this will understand the message ,and act on it.

humans can never achieve salvation on their own. This is why Jesus had to be crucified. We can never work our way to heaven.

That's why it is called the dark ages. This is when the church thought they had found the truth and dominated life. I hope we will not go that way. It's a dead end.

Yibel . “Looking forward to learning about the festivals you mentioned: "fateer" and "fasah."
I give here the citations of Fasah and Fateer in Bible
Fasah.
Matthew 26:1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”
Fateer.
Matthew 26:17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
Regarding my question “Please tell me which Gospel is Gospel of Jesus Christ or the Gospel which Jesus mentions in Mark? You write “There are four Gospels in the New Testament of the Bible. These are the Gospels According to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.”
Yibel Jesus has mentioned word Gospel at three places in Mark and nowhere in other Gospels. I quote:
Mark 8: 35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
Mark10:29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
Mark 16: 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
If you rationalize Yibel Jesus would not mean Gospels of Luke, Mark, Matthew and John in Mark. Now we have Gospel of Judas also that surfaced during the 1970s. Therefore my friend my question needs some research for its answer. Thank you for the reply. I hope you would look for me for the Gospel mentioned by Jesus Christ in Gospel of Mark.

This is the biggest reason I'm on here. I simply want to show people the path back to life ,and a relationship with God.

So you consider that someone who does not believe as you do, and fails to take your advice, is dead? And if they listen to you they will come back to life?
Are you a savior? Are you trying to raise people from the dead? Do you have a Messiah complex?
Can you guarantee that your method results in a relationship with God? Can you describe what that is? How do you now others do not already have a relationship with God?

A better look at the period of history called the "dark ages" wasn't exactly what it's being touted as in school text books. In fact during this period there was a great deal of scientific advance and discovery in Europe. This was often accomplished BECAUSE of the Church ,and not in spite of it. "This period saw the development of water and wind power, spectacles, magnificent architecture, the blast furnace, and the stirrup." I highly recommend this article http://creation.com/biblical-r...rn-science
People often teach the outright lie that Christianity is "anti-science". This is absurd when you consider that only under a Christian influence did science actually begin to truly flourish. The Inquisitions and Crusades were bad ,but they do not come from the teachings of the Bible. In fact they are in opposition to what the Bible teaches. Jesus while being arrested Peter attacked one of the guards. Jesus condemned Peter ,and healed the guard. "Holy War" isn't something a Christian should be engaging in.Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. This is entirely different from the Crusades and Inquisitions.

@ Reed

The "Gospel" Jesus speaks of there is simply the message of salvation ,and redemption that Jesus offers to anyone willing to ask for can have. This is taught faithfully in the New Testament (not the apocryphal books ,the gnostic books aren't trustworthy either. Gospel of Judas is a gnostic book). You have chosen instead to follow Mohammed's message.
Admin ate post twice last time trying to post it.

No I am not a savior. I'm no better than anyone else. Jesus however was. He was and is the way ,the truth ,and the LIFE. Those who reject Him are dead in sin(This means spiritually dead by the way).Despite all evidence supports the fact that He is God ,and the only Savior of mankind ,people still reject Him. The Bible which is 100% trustworthy guarantees us relationship with God if people will only turn to Him and ask for it. Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
These promises and more are made in the Bible. I have chosen to trust the Bible ,and the source of life Jesus Christ. Even the thief on the cross next to Jesus was made this promise.Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
This man was a criminal who was bad enough to be executed by the Romans ,and Jesus was still willing to forgive him ,and even promise that they would both be in Heaven that day.
The only way a person can have a relationship with God is by having a relationship with Jesus. Jesus said that "No one comes to the Father EXCEPT by Me". Those who reject Jesus reject God. I'm not savior I'm not anyone special ,but I have been told by Jesus in what is known as the "Great Commission" to spread the Gospel to everyone. I try to do that with everyone I can. You seem to reject Jesus on the idea that God can't be all powerful and a God of love at the same time. You also reject the real answer to this question. Everything evil in this world including death and suffering is a result of our sin. This isn't because God is powerless to do anything about it. It's because we rejected Him ,and continue to do so.In fact God has done something about it. He sent His only Son that we might reject our sinful nature ,and choose to have a real relationship with Him again. He will make a new earth and a new heaven. Then there will be no more death ,disease,suffering ,and no more sin. When God makes a promise He always keeps it.

Can you ever respond to a comment without long winded preaching? It's redundant and boring...

Everything evil in this world including death and suffering is a result of our sin.

BS...death and suffering existed on the planet before man...Do animals sin? Why do they die and suffer? The evil of Islam is not a result of my sin, or yours...

"No one comes to the Father EXCEPT by Me".

It's just a self-certification and hence not acceptable.

There was NO death and suffering before man only after. You can't prove otherwise either. Animals were under the dominion of man and were affected by the curse. Islam is still the result of Mohammed a very sinful man. We as descendants of Adam were in him when he sinned ,and we continue to sin to this day.God gave Adam a choice life or death ,Adam chose death. We all have continued to do the same thing. Jesus offers this choice again. What will you ultimately choose? After all it is your choice.

@ Archpagan

Then how about all of the other certifiable evidence that supports that Jesus is God? The Resurrection , the empty tomb , the fact that He was witnessed by around 500 people ascending into Heaven. Even the simple fact that Christianity exists is powerful evidence that He is God. If He wasn't the Romans ,and Jews could have easily stopped His disciples ministry by showing them the proof that He was still dead. The Gospels are eyewitness testimonies ,and are the most well attested documents from the ancient world. Nothing in the ancient world even compares to the authenticity of the Bible. What about the hundreds of very specific prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? Just fulfilling 48 of them would take odds of 1 in 10 to the 157th power ,but He didn't just fulfill 48 He fulfilled them ALL. The disciples were able to spread the Gospel so well at first because they were preaching to people who were THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED. If they had been lying no one would have believed them ,and we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

There was NO death and suffering before man only after. You can't prove otherwise either.

Did God put animals outside the garden before he put Adam and Eve outside it, at the same time. or after? Is man as old as the dinosaurs? Which species is older, man or cockroaches? Cockroaches can live anywhere man can live and usually do... Were there cockroaches in the Garden? Your reasons make no sense again...Please explain just when suffering and death started? Who suffered and died first...

Animals were under the dominion of man and were affected by the curse.

A false statement. You assume that animals were under dominion of man. But what about the time when there were animals but no man (yet)?

Both Christianity and Islam owe their continued existence to their exclusivism, intolerance and organized effort to maintain the status quo. Not only Hindus, all Pagan groups of the world believed in the principle of tolerance, inquiry, synthesis and assimilation. Their ideas were too great to be destroyed by physical assault. Modern world can not move an inch without science and philosophy framed by ancient Greek /India and legal system of the ancient Rome. Nationalism is only a reincarnated version of Paganism. You may not have the sufficient erudition to understand that. Moreover, modern democratic values of the world are all derived from the principles of the French Revolution which was Nationalist in essence.

Christianity spread after 300 years of Jesus's death through sustained efforts of St Paul and his followers. Gospel took its final form around that time. So, what you are saying are not correct. Galileo was persecuted by the church for saying the earth moves round the sun. But his contemporary Astronomer Johannes Kepler of Germany who framed the laws of planetary motion escaped the wrath of the Church. Do you have any idea about the reason behind Church's magnanimity to Kepler?

Science progressed in Europe due to weakening of the Church by the split between the Catholic and protestant groups and consequent empowerment of the King and growth of Nationalism. Copernicus was himself a Christian Monk, but the Church tried its best to destroy his work. So, science progressed in Europe in spite of Christianity not because of it.

P S: you said- The Inquisitions and Crusades were bad ,but they do not come from the teachings of the Bible.'

We consider telling lies to be a sin. Will Jesus save you from the sin of telling lies about him and Gospel? Indigenous people of the two American continents were mercilessly slaughtered to near extinction. Moral justification towards the same came from your Gospel- ' Go into the bush and compel them to come'. German philosopher Nietzsche discarded Christianity as 'idealist arrogance'. You are a perfect example for the same.

Indigenous people of the two American continents were mercilessly slaughtered to near extinction.

I don't know about extinction, but slaughter was common, particularly in S America under the invaders Pizzaro and Cortez...In N America the indians were often slaughtered, but they also did plenty slaughtering themselves...Of course from their point of view they had been invaded by non human white people, and they fought back...Finally killed, subdued and defeated, they moved/were forced, onto Indian Reservations, where many still live in poverty...Of course Indian casinos have helped many of them with the poverty problem...
In some ways the casino's are the Red Mans revenge...no white gambler ever beats the casino...

You have several lies posted yourself. Galileo was persecuted mainly by scientists in the universities ,not the Church. Galileo was persecuted because he opposed the Ptolemaic system currently in use. In every other society ,but the Christian society science stopped at alchemy and astrology. It never went any further. Science was based on the faith that an orderly God created an orderly universe. And since the creation was under the domain of man he could experiment with it. The idea that the creation itself is divine stops this(Pantheism) ,and the idea that there are many different gods all fighting each other like ill behaved children(polytheism) never lead on to these conclusions. In fact they stifle science. The Greeks had some science ,but mostly just philosophy on how the world works. Nothing on actually figuring out how it it does work Nearly everything you wrote in the above post about Christianity persecuting scientists is a total and complete lie. This is a case of evolutionist historical revisionism. It's basically the atheistic equivalent to mythology. The Gospel took it's final form the time it was written. The earliest known copies were all written in the 1st century A.D. You're also lying about the Crusades and Inquisitions being based on Biblical teachings.How does that verse imply killing those who don't believe? Show me where the 4 Gospels have Jesus tell people to kill unbelievers ,or for that matter any one of the disciples of Jesus. People have taken the Bible and twisted for all it's worth to justify their actions ,but when put in context it never actually does this. The values of the USA ,and many other western countries stems from the Bible. There is no exclusivity or intolerance taught in the Bible(at least not in the way most people say it is). Anyone can become a Christian. We are taught to treat others how we would like to be treated ,and to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. The Bible teaches that all mankind is of one blood ,and that no one group is superior to another. Even the Israelites weren't chosen because of how good they were at following God's law ,but in spite of it. What about the teachings of the Hindu caste system? Anyone born into poverty would have to stay that way the rest of their lives. What about the untouchables? Were people tolerant of them?

The time when there were animals ,but no appearance of man was only a few short days. As soon as man was created on day 6 ,all of creation was put under his dominion.

@ Duh
A few of your question are answered in the post to Machmoed,but you had a few more so here goes. Dinosaurs and cockroaches are a little older than man ,but not by much at all(considering cockroaches and dinosaurs, there are sea land and air dinosaurs so different ones would be different ages older than Adam.This would only have been a difference of a few days at most though.There would have been members of the cockroach kind in Eden). The first to die was 2 animals that God killed in order to clothe Adam and Eve. I don't think they suffered though(this is just conjecture).Whether animals or man are the first to suffer isn't really an important question is it? I really don't know the answer. Sea creatures were likely outside the garden of Eden before man ,because it doesn't mention an ocean or sea in Eden (This is just conjecture). I honestly don't know about other animals being outside the garden. A lot of these questions aren't answered in the Bible. As far as human suffering I suppose it depends on what kind of suffering you mean. Adam and Eve were exceedingly afraid of being found out. This was likely the first emotional suffering they had. The curse led to their bodies beginning a rather long process towards death( Adam lived for hundreds of years). He also had to work very hard to get any edible plants to grow ,and this was likely painful ,but it all started with that simple act of eating the "forbidden fruit". Some of these questions aren't possible to answer ,because there is not enough data. The other questions are easily answered just by reading the Bible.

You have several lies posted yourself. Galileo was persecuted mainly by scientists...

In those days, everyone but a privileged few was persecuted by the Church, either by violence or threat of it, no one was safe...Science was not encouraged and was in fact discouraged...
Of course we know that science survived and it was the Church that lost power...

The earliest known copies were all written in the 1st century A.D.

Pope Clement is recorded as having said that there were a multitude of gospels in his day...We only know of four...What happened to the others?
And as has been pointed out before, that none of them are eye witness accounts...That's why honest bibles call them 'The Gospel according to...', thus evading eye witness accounts...You notice that they all tell a story without the authors personal input? None of them say anything like, 'I was there among the crowd while Jesus was being raised and tortured, I saw the whole thing, and I felt awful about it, I fell on my knees, and began crying'...And even if there was such testimony it could not be verified...
At least hadith are full of eye witness accounts...I heard the prophet say, or I saw the prophet do...
Does that make them valid? No, but at least they pretend to be eye witness... The four gospels are a narrative without emotion...
An actual eye witness account should be full of emotional input...but there is little to none... If emotion is involved, you have to provide it...The writers did not...

This lie about Christianity and science being at war is sickening. Without Christianity there would be NO science. All of the major fields of science were founded by Bible believing Christians ,and Christians still do good science today. The MRI is a great example of a Christian scientists work. It was invented by Dr. Raymond V. Damadian. He is a Biblical creationist. Theoretical physicists told him that it couldn't be done. Science flourished in the Middle Ages ,and did even better after the Reformation and a return to Biblical authority. "Western civilization owes its survival to Christianity, and that ideas such as limited government, religious tolerance, human dignity and equality, and individual freedom all have explicitly Christian origins. Western culture also owes much to Christianity; the great works of art, music and architecture were overwhelmingly influenced by Christian themes, even those created by people who rejected the Christian faith."
This comes from this article ,and can be shown by real history to be true.
http://creation.com/review-whats-so-great-about-christianity-dsouza
All of these things you value so much come directly from Christian influence. Not Hindu influence ,not atheist influence ,but Christian influence. I suggest you look at some real history instead what is being crammed down the throats of anyone who goes to public school ,and in many private schools.

If you take a closer look you will see that there is some emotion involved in these texts. Certain parts have vivid descriptions of things like the scent of the perfume used to wash Jesus' feet. 2 of the 4 Gospels were written by eyewitnesses ,and 2 were written by people who interviewed and knew eyewitnesses. The Bible has the most well attested ancient documents available. They dwarf in comparison Homer's Illyad. I'm sure that you believe that Homer was a real person don't you? What about Plato ,Socrates ,Aristotle etc.? You believe they existed don't you? Homer's Illyad is the only thing that comes close to having the attestation of the NT Gospels ,and even then it's still incredibly inferior when it comes to how many sources we have for it. Different people have different writing styles. This in no way proves that the writer wasn't there. Some people even talk in the third person. Does this mean that when they speak they never talk about something they've done or seen? This is a very flimsy argument even for you Duh. The authors of the Gospels were trying to keep the focus on Jesus. They were not nearly as concerned with themselves. Paul in his letters does what you speak of on many occasions. Again different people write in different ways. Just as different people speak in different ways. This is another baseless attack on the Bible.

This lie about Christianity and science being at war is sickening. Without Christianity there would be NO science.

Way before Christianity early men discovered the science of bashing each other with sticks...later they developed their science of weapons to spears and bows...At about the same time or a little later they scientifically discovered metal blades...It is said, that a primitive atomic theory science was known in 500bc...Primitive batteries have been found in the Babylon area, The Romans built roads, buildings and aqueducts as well as arches by the scientific method...The pyramids were built by applied science...There are hundreds of examples of applied scientific knowledge and experiment way before Christianity...Science started when some man asked 'why'?...That most likely was Adam, he wanted to know why he got kicked out of the Garden when the whole thing was the woman's fault...Men have been asking why ever since...Science usually has, or will in time come up with the answer...

This in no way proves that the writer wasn't there.

You can't prove or disprove a negative, and you know it, so that remark is a dishonest device...

It doesn't prove they were there either...it's you who believe these were eye witnesses, now prove it...But I know you can't which wrecks your argument...

Claiming you were there is not proof you were there...Show me your ticket stub...
You have no way of knowing any of this yourself, you are simply taking someones word for it because it appears in the Bible...And of course if it's in the Bible it has to be right...You categorically reject any non bible material, that's a huge limitation, but it is your limitation, not mine...

Concerning the Arabic words: Fasah and Fateer
The Passover/Pessah and the Festival of Unleavened Bread are the same festival, not two different festivals/religious holidays. For eight days the Hebrews/Israelites were told to eat unleavened bread, just as their ancestors had done when they left/escaped from slavery in Egypt.

Is Fasah just the Arabic pronounciation of Pessah, since there is no "P" sound in Arabic? What does "Fateer" mean?

In answer to your question:
“Please tell me which Gospel is Gospel of Jesus Christ or the Gospel which Jesus mentions in Mark?"

Mark 16:15-16: He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel (GOOD NEWS) to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

As cerebrum123 stated:
The "Gospel" Jesus speaks of in "The Gospel According to Mark" is simply the message of salvation, and redemption, that Jesus offers. Jesus is the gospel/good news. "Ask and ye shall receive. Seek and ye shall find."

The gospel/good news is that YHVH sent his only begotten son to save mankind from having to live in the darkness that is caused by BAD human behavior.

We don't have to imagine such a world. We can see it for ourselves. Just look at the history of India under the Muslim rule. Eight hundred years of horror.

And we can see it in ALL the lands that Islam rules today: Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, and on and on.

The constant warfare that is Islam. Q. 2:216 "Warfare is ordained for you."
"Fight them until there is no more fitnah in the land and there is Islam only."

can only lead to perpetual darkness of the human spirit. And Shari'ah is an abomination unto the Lord. It is a law that endorses slavery, injustice, inequality, cruelty, immorality, and vices of all kinds. Once Islam takes over, ALL the lights go out, and only savagery remains. Muhammad was Lord of the Flies, the houris are really ants, the pearly little boys are maggots, and green is the color of gangrene.

It was really all a lie.
There is no brothel in the sky.
Only death and sure decay.
When you follow Allah'a way.
Down the path of destruction you are lead
by The Prophet of Doom, M00H am Mad

The evidence supporting the fact that the Gospels are eyewitness testimonies ,or are based on eyewitness testimonies (Luke and Mark did this) are as follows. 1 They do make this claim themselves in the Gospels. John 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
2 They are historically accurate ,and archaeologically accurate.(Luke was a historian and is known for his accuracy) 3 They were written within the time frame necessary for them to have witnessed these events (likely between A.D. 40 and 65) 4 They are internally consistent. 5 They support and enhance each other.

This is just a few things that support eyewitness accounts ,and for some (Luke and Mark) the use of eyewitnesses as sources. You will likely reject all of these ,but I thought that I could provide at least a few supporting factors.

This is just a few things that support eyewitness accounts ,and for some (Luke and Mark) the use of eyewitnesses as sources.

They don't support truth if they can't be verified...Anyone can say anything now and anyone could say anything then...Eye witness accounts are not reliable, ask the police, lawyers and judges about that...You are just making some really big stretches of credulity to make something out of nothing...That Mark and Luke used eye witness sources, they must have either interviewed them personally, or were listening to stories...There is no evidence anywhere that any eye witness was interviewed by reporters...and even if so, there is no guarantee their story is accurate...

As a trained physician Luke would not support the odd virgin birth and all it's medical impossibilities...

Actually, it is not at all surprising that Muslims are cruel to animals. Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings. They are considered objects that exist only for men to use, just as women are also objects, "fields to be plowed" (Q.2:228) and “Men must scourge (whip or lash) their disobedient wives (like camels) and desert them to separate beds” (Q.4:34)

Islamic texts describe females as "she-camels in heat," and it is traditional for some men to divorce their wives by saying "you are given free rein and unloosed like that camel."

The Qur'an even says men can abuse animals if they like them. In 38:33, Solomon "hacked his horses about their legs and necks" because he loved them TOO MUCH!

Of course, an ignorant, illiterate caravan raider, rapist, and murderous thief like Muhammad would think this type of behavior was not only okay, but even manly. Just lose your temper, beat your animals, and beat your wives and your slaves as well. And go ahead, while you're at it, murder anyone who disagrees with you. In Islam, a true warrior cult, only male Muslims who do jihad (wage war) have any status.

As Muslims have a mind-frame rooted in sand, camels, and ropes—this measure must surely seem natural: raymondibrahim.com/2011/11/egypt-women-herded-and-tied-like-camels

Yibel. I was discussing that there is no festival, leaving alone Idul Fitr and Idul Azha, in Quran. Also there is no concept of animal sacrifice, except pagan practices, in Quran. I also said may be roots of festivals are in Bible. Those objections are clarified and settled. I read an article on animal sacrifice in Islam. I give here its conclusion and link:

http://rmakhtar.blogspot.com/.


Conclusion:
1. Animal Sacrifice is not a Quranic Concept.
2. It is derived from Bible and propagated by traditional Islamic scholars and jurists, through lies attributed, to apostle /messenger of Allah Muhammad.
3. It is neither attached nor obligatory with pilgrimage.
4. Slaughtering of animals won't make them holy, these are for eating during Hujj by Hajies( Rich and poor together)
5. These animals are symbols like other Symbols like "Saee" at Safa O Marwah.

Now you come with “Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings.”

Animals are fondly mentioned in Quran and as favor. Study of animals is also suggested in Quran. Suggestions like how the birds balance in air, the beauty of camel, how they are made etc we find. I quote:

وَالْأَنْعَامَ خَلَقَهَا ۗ لَكُمْ فِيهَا دِفْءٌ وَمَنَافِعُ وَمِنْهَا تَأْكُلُونَ ﴿٥﴾ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا جَمَالٌ حِينَ تُرِيحُونَ وَحِينَ تَسْرَحُونَ ﴿٦﴾

“He created the cattle from which you get warm clothing and several advantages, and some you eat. There is life and cheer (جَمَالٌ) for you as you drive them home in the evening, and lead them out in the morning to graze. (16:5-6)

You go on saying “Islamic texts describe females as "she-camels in heat," and it is traditional for some men to divorce their wives by saying "you are given free rein and unloosed like that camel."

What texts Yibel? There is no divorce in Quran. Talaq is opposite of nikah which means dissolution of nikah, which took place with mutual consent of spouses, by the spouses. Neither nikah nor talaq is done by man or woman. It is by both. They decide to live together they only decide to terminate the contract.

You write “The Qur'an even says men can abuse animals if they like them. In 38:33, Solomon "hacked his horses about their legs and necks" because he loved them TOO MUCH”.

You perhaps forgot your writing “Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings.” You mention 38:33 for abuse of animals and at the same time you write Solomon loved horses. Let’s see the verse:

رُدُّوهَا عَلَيَّ ۖ فَطَفِقَ مَسْحًا بِالسُّوقِ وَالْأَعْنَاقِ

“He then ordered, “Bring them back to me”; and he began caressing their shins and necks.” 38:33

Do you know ‘caress’? Then you understand everything.

Yibel I have posted for you. It is under review.

They decide to live together they only decide to terminate the contract.

Now that's not an absolute is it Reed...A lot of these brides are not voluntary...They were either sold by their parents as children, or stolen and forced to convert to Islam and marry...against their will..That is the real Islam, the one you keep pushing is an original reproduction...

duh-swami. "Now that's not an absolute is it Reed...A lot of these brides are not voluntary...They were either sold by their parents as children, or stolen and forced to convert to Islam and marry...against their will..That is the real Islam, the one you keep pushing is an original reproduction.."

I always talk in Quranic perspective. Yibel hopefully got my point. You also. You mention cultural practices. How it is done, one may not know. I am not 'children'. When I buy I must get a willing seller. What will I do with the child. Rear!

Such practices are only possible with mutual understanding. They can revoke the arrangement. If not, they are willing partners which is the spirit of nikah.

It started with Idul Fitr and Idul Azha, in Quran and their possible roots Bible. Later Mr. Yibel claimed "Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings." These issues are, alhamdolillah, settled.

Yibel. I truncated my last post for you above. Following is it tail.

You write “Of course, an ignorant, illiterate caravan raider, rapist, and murderous thief like Muhammad would think this type of behavior was not only okay, but even manly. Just lose your temper, beat your animals, and beat your wives and your slaves as well. And go ahead, while you're at it, murder anyone who disagrees with you.”

I have no definite idea of psychology of ignorant, illiterate caravan raiders etc. You may be right in your finding.

Jihad is not war.

Jihad is not war.

You are not being honest are you...Jihad is fighting, and fighting is war...

"As a trained physician Luke would not support the odd virgin birth and all it's medical impossibilities..."

Yes Luke was a trained physician ,but he was also a trustworthy historian. Also as someone who believes in God he would realize that for the One who created everything ,a virgin birth would be simple. Your statement on what Luke would believe is conjecture and a limitation on God. God is omnipotent this would not be hard for Him to do at all. In fact noting is hard for Him to do. Also eyewitness testimony is accepted over circumstantial evidence. Besides there is verification. Historical verification being a major one. Besides they were dealing with people who were there WHEN IT HAPPENED. All somebody had to do to prove them wrong was produce the body(there are other things they could do such as bring in other witnesses or other evidence to show that this was a lie. One such thing they could do since you obviously don't believe miracles happen, they could easily find many eyewitnesses that knew that Jesus never performed any miracles. This would settle the matter right then and there and we wouldn't be having this conversation. ) . They had Roman guards set at the tomb to make sure that the disciples wouldn't steal the body. They claimed this happened though. The Romans story of what happened is fishy if this was the truth. They said that they came and stole is body while they were asleep. Roman guards who were asleep on duty were executed ,not only that they couldn't possibly know what happened if they were asleep. Besides people don't follow something they know to be a lie to their deaths. People have followed lies to their deaths ,but they always BELIEVE that its the truth.

Yibel will reply you in his way, I just like to ask, didn't you simply explain and support his view in this regard?

He said - Actually, it is not at all surprising that Muslims are cruel to animals. Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings. They are considered objects that exist only for men to use, just as women are also objects,

The Qur'an even says men can abuse animals if they like them. In 38:33, Solomon "hacked his horses about their legs and necks" because he loved them TOO MUCH!

In reply you said, - Animals are fondly mentioned in Quran and as favor. Study of animals is also suggested in Quran. Suggestions like how the birds balance in air, the beauty of camel, how they are made etc we find.
- He created the cattle from which you get warm clothing and several advantages, and some you eat. There is life and cheer (جَمَالٌ) for you as you drive them home in the evening, and lead them out in the morning to graze. (16:5-6)

Why you couldn't quote anything that tells Allah instructs to love animals and not to kill and/or eat them?
Modern science proved human beings are basically vegetarian and not omnivorous. Did Allah forgot his basic nature of creation(human being)?Why there is no support of this truth in your Quran, if it be from god and thus the complete truth?

N.B. You are free to flee. I stop expecting any honest response from you.

I made a post to reed. I didn't use any objectionable content there. Why it grabbed? I register my protest.

God is omnipotent this would not be hard for Him to do at all.

Another device to lend credibility...If you can't prove your point, say 'God did it'...Can you post anything without devices?

'Yes Luke was a trained physician ,but he was also a trustworthy historian. Also as someone who believes in God he would realize that for the One who created everything ,a virgin birth would be simple'.

Two things, while he wrote of a virgin birth, he did not witness it, so he got his story from another story...He was not there with Joseph and Mary, he was not there when the angel appeared or when the three wise men showed up...he does not credit his sources so no one knows where he got his story, and there was no way for him to verify it's authenticity...What this means is that if the virgin birth story is true or not, you can't prove it by Luke...

Second...You are surmising that Luke would think a virgin birth is simple...How could that be when there was no other virgin birth to measure against? And he was not there to witness it? Physicians, are scientists, and the virgin birth flies in the face of science...if Luke accepted it without reservations, I would think him a poor physician...

According to one researcher, Joseph and Mary were members of the Essene sect...Their marriage ceramony took two years and the happy couple was married twice...The first marriage lasted two years, the couple were not allowed to be alone, and the woman was considered a virgin no matter what her real physical condition...At the end of two years they were married again and could have normal relations...The story go's that Mary and Joseph could not wait, had sex and Jesus was conceived and delivered within the first two years, while Mary was still considered a virgin...A virgin birth...is this correct? I don't know, I didn't do the research, but apparently the sect did have such a marriage program...

duh_swami You write "You are not being honest are you...Jihad is fighting, and fighting is war..."

I copypaste from Wiki for you here. I dont subscribe to hadis in it:

Jihad (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ ǧihād [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims. In Arabic, the word jihād translates as a noun meaning "struggle". Jihad appears 41 times in the Quran and frequently in the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of God (al-jihad fi sabil Allah)".

Jihad is an important religious duty for Muslims. The real meaning of jihad is the struggle within, between forces of light and dark, a battle that every Sufi undertakes. Wisdom and love carry the sword, and ultimately the victory is the victory of the heart.

Muslims use the word in a religious context to refer to three types of struggles: an internal struggle to maintain faith, the struggle to improve the Muslim society, or the struggle to defend Islam. The prominent British-American orientalist Bernard Lewis argues that in the hadiths and the classical manuals of Islamic law jihad has a military meaning in the large majority of cases.
In a commentary of the hadith Sahih Muslim, entitled al-Minhaj, the medieval Islamic scholar Yahya ibn Sharaf al-Nawawi stated that "one of the collective duties of the community as a whole (fard kifaya) is to lodge a valid protest, to solve problems of religion, to have knowledge of Divine Law, to command what is right and forbid wrong conduct".

In western societies the term jihad is often translated by non-muslims as "holy war". Scholars of Islamic studies often stress that these words are not synonymous.

The term Al-Jihad-ul-Akbar. "The greatest Jihad," is also applied by the Holy prophet to the effort of the student to become learned and the effort of the learned to spread knowledge."The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr." Jihad means serious and sincere struggle on the personal as well as on the social, economic and political level.

I dont use 'prophet' for apostle Muhammad.

You are missing the vital component of religion and believeing in God and that is faith. If indeed you did have faith in Allah, and his abilities you would see clearly that the virgin birth is a miracle one of many that Allah bestowed upon man. I have to think during your breaks from Popeye and talking with your dog you read the old testament about how Allah created the earth right?

duh_swami.You write " According to one researcher, Joseph and Mary were members of the Essene sect...Their marriage ceremony took two years and the happy couple was married twice."

Shocking!! Who is the researcher? What is his research methodology and sources? Where are Clement and Yibel?

You are missing the vital component of religion and believeing in God and that is faith.

Faith is for the faithless...Faith is the belief in the unknown and unseen...Faith means that when you talk about God, you cannot know what you are talking about by definition...Similar to blind belief...Of course this never stopped the religious fanatic from talking a lot about it anyway...If Allah has abilities does he also have disabilities? Why should I have faith in a fake?

I don't care if this is directly in Quran or not, and I don't care if you like it or not...I didn't write it, it is Islamic literature and a much better description of jihad than your pathetic 'struggle'...

Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote:"Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."

That is jihad...yours is the fake...

I wrote a rsponse tomyour weak explanation of jihad, but the editor got it...maybe later...

The reference to Jesus birth and the two year waiting period comes from a book called, 'Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls'...Written by a anthropologist who research for 20 years the entire Qumran area and history...The book is a wealth of Essene beliefs and practices...but not all scholars accept her conclusions...

duh_swami. Thanks. One about Jihad has appeared. I am waiting for the sources of res. methodology.

From Dawood's Translation:
In Surat Sad (the letter Saad) 38:33, Solomon "HACKED his horses about their legs
and necks"

From Sahih International Surat Sad (the letter Saad)
38:30 And to David We gave Solomon. An excellent servant, indeed he was one
repeatedly turning back (to Allah).

38:31 (Mention) when there were exhibited before him in the afternoon the poised
(standing) racehorses.

38:32 And he said, "Indeed, I gave preference to the love of good (things) over
the remembrance of my Lord until the sun disappeared into the curtain (of
darkness)."

38:33 (He said), "Return them to me," and (he) set about STRIKING (their) legs
and necks.

38:34 And We certainly tried Solomon and placed on his throne a body; then he returned.

38:35 He said, "My Lord, forgive me and grant me a kingdom such as will not belong to anyone after me. Indeed, You are the Bestower."

Note that Sahih International says STRIKING, and N.J. Dawood uses the word HACKING

Where did you get the translation using the word "caressed"???
STRIKING and HACKING are not "caressing." FAR FROM IT!!!
Please state the Arabic word that you have translated as "caressed."

And what about Muhammad's hatred of dogs? This has caused Muslims to mistreat
dogs worldwide. I've even seen news reports about Muslims in turkey raping dogs before killing them.

I challenge you to find something in the Qur'an that talks about animals other than as just creations or their usefulness to humans.
Until you, or someone, can prove otherwise, I stand by my statement:
“Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings.”

In responce to your "Conclusion:
1. Animal Sacrifice is not a Quranic Concept.
I submit the following:

From Sahih International (quran.com) Surat Al-Ĥaj (The Pilgrimage)

22:27 And proclaim to the people the Hajj (pilgrimage); they will come to you on
foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass -

22:28 That they may witness benefits for themselves and mention the name of
Allah on known days over what He has provided for them of (sacrificial) animals. So eat of them and feed the miserable and poor.

22:29 Then let them end their untidiness and fulfill their vows and perform Tawaf around the ancient House.

22:33 For you the animals marked for sacrifice are benefits for a specified term; then their place of sacrifice is at the ancient House.

22:34 And for all religion We have appointed a rite (of sacrifice) that they may mention the name of Allah over what He has provided for them of (sacrificial)
animals. For your god is one God, so to Him submit. And, (O Muhammad), give good
tidings to the humble [before their Lord]

22:36 And the camels and cattle We have appointed for you as among the symbols
of Allah; for you therein is good. So mention the name of Allah upon them when lined up (for sacrifice); and when they are (lifeless) on their sides, then eat from them and feed the needy and the beggar. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may be grateful.

Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow)
2:196 And complete the Hajj and 'umrah for Allah . But if you are prevented, then
[offer] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And do not shave your heads until the sacrificial animal has reached its place of slaughter. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head (making shaving necessary must offer) a ransom of fasting (three days) or charity or sacrifice. And when you are secure, then whoever performs 'umrah [during the Hajj months] followed by Hajj [offers] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And whoever cannot find [or afford such an animal] - then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned [home]. Those are ten complete [days]. This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-Haram. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in penalty.

READ THE ABOVE and tell me again that "Animal Sacrifice is not a Quranic Concept"

Yibel. Thank you. Please remove brackets of sacrifice. Which Arabic word of Quran denotes sacrifice. Is it offering to God?

You write "Until you, or someone, can prove otherwise, I stand by my statement: “Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings.”

I mentioned 16:5-6 where word جَمَالٌ is used for cattle which is used for pretty girls. For Candice Swanpoel. Yet!!! Do you have جَمَالٌ for cattle? You may stand on your stand. My job is not to convince. If Islam is bad, I dont have to make it good.

وَالْأَنْعَامَ خَلَقَهَا ۗ لَكُمْ فِيهَا دِفْءٌ وَمَنَافِعُ وَمِنْهَا تَأْكُلُونَ ﴿٥﴾ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا جَمَالٌ حِينَ تُرِيحُونَ وَحِينَ تَسْرَحُونَ ﴿٦﴾

“He created the cattle from which you get warm clothing and several advantages, and some you eat. There is life and cheer (جَمَالٌ) for you as you drive them home in the evening, and lead them out in the morning to graze. (16:5-6)

Dont dispute on translations. Original text is there. Dictionary will decide hack or caress for the Arabic word used in text.

duh-swami. My post on Jiahd is detained and I have meagre hopes that it will appear. I will post it on some other blog and tell you.

If Islam is bad, I dont have to make it good.

Really you can't. It is already made. a made up story whose purpose also already served. All you just can do is being honest to yourself and accept the fact as it is.
When will you stop defending Islam crap, and thus stop misusing your precious time of this short life for good?

So somehow having a blind belief in the virgin birth of Jesus hampers a person's ability to be a physician ,but a blind belief that monkeys turned into humans over millions of years (which cannot be tested empirically or proven) makes a person more capable of such activities? Luke however did not have blind belief in the virgin birth ,he knew the people involved ,and interviewed them. There are also many good doctors and scientists today who believe in the virgin birth and resurrection. A person's faith isn't the determining factor in whether they are a good doctor or scientist (or nearly any other profession). Faith is the same as trust. I trust in God ,and in His word the Bible(which has been proven to be trustworthy time and time again). You trust in what you call science(you often equivocate evolution and science this is a major logical fallacy). Not everything that happens can be repeated and tested in a laboratory ,but this doesn't mean that it didn't happen. The supposed appearance of the first living cell can't be tested ,repeated ,or proved ,but you take it in faith that these scientists have it right. Like I said I prefer to trust God who is infallible over man who is fallible. You seem to reject any evidence I could ever put forth. This leads me to believe that even if you were there you would have a hard time accepting it.

Remember the greek. Many people do not believe Zeus for example was a God. He was to many Greek people. This doesn't mean Zeus was real and a God. People believe all kind of stuff without noticing that it is not reality/truth. This is applicable to all kind of religious ideologies. Virgin birth is one of the so called miracles westerners found false. There are hardly no serious scholars/scientists who consider a virgin birth possible. It is blind believe. It is believed because it is written, not because it happened. Historians say: wether Jesus came as God and became human or a human and became God, this individual is not part of our history...meaning, this is just a scam. Thank god christianity of early days has been unarmed and became what it is now wich is just fine. Islam must get the same treatment in order to survive. It has to be adapted to the zeitgeist of today, wich actually is the same as evolution and adaptation. Evolution is needed everywhere. It is a law of God/source/nature etc.

Jesus was very much a part of our history ,and there is no evidence to the contrary. You say that there are no serious scientists and scholars who believe that the virgin birth is possible. This is a false appeal to authority logical fallacy ,because there are in fact many great scientists in the past ,and now who do believe that it did happen. Here's a list of past and present scientists who do believe that this is possible ,and did happen http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/
You should recognize a great deal of names if you look at this list. Which westerners found this false? The USA was founded on the Christian faith ,and most people here would identify themselves as Christian. The western world is what it is ,because of Christianity not in spite of it. The virgin birth is one of the key parts of Christianity. Without it Jesus is not the Messiah. This is tied in with Messianic prophecy. Zeus was not a historical figure ,but Jesus and His disciples were. Only a few fringe people out there deny this. They had eyewitnesses on their side. I would like you to read this page I know it's a little long ,but it shows just what Christianity had to overcome during it's formative years. It shows that if these people were not speaking the truth then Christianity would not exist at all ,and we would not be having this conversation. www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html
Christianity wasn't armed in the early years ,because early Christian teaching was that we aren't fighting against people ,but against spiritual evil. It is not believed just because it it is written. It is believed because it is backed up by ALL of the evidence. Your objection to miracles is like someone objecting to a comet because they have never seen one. Many people have seen them ,and they have been documented ,and still happen today. I personally have experienced miracles ,and know other people who have as well. A historian said that not historians. Many historians believe the Bible ,and the virgin birth. If by evolution you simply mean change then yes change is needed in most places ,but you need to be more specific when using the word evolution. If you mean the kind of evolution where all life comes from some "primordial soup" ,then you should know that that kind of evolution is simply impossible. It goes against the law of biogenesis for one. Also the kind of things necessary to cause this kind of change just don't happen. I suggest you research something called Information Theory. The odds of the so called first "simple" one celled organism is 1 in 10 to the 40000th power. This is far beyond the realm of mathematical probability ,and this is under the best possible conditions.Trying this a third time.

Dwito " When will you stop defending Islam crap, and thus stop misusing your precious time of this short life for good?

What about “Nowhere in the Qur'an is there any regard for animals as living beings.”?

There are hardly no serious scholars/scientists who consider a virgin birth possible.

I wrote a virgin birth. This means a virgin birth in general. Tell me or show me a scientist who believe such lie. You on the other hand talk about the virgin birth of christ specific. Maybe Christ did get born through a virgin. The fact remains that natural speaking a virgin birth is not possible. Since i don't believe in christ as you do and all the evidence there is points to my view, i don't think there are many people who believe or think yoú could be right. I prefer to stay with my both feet on the ground instead of insulting my intelligence by believing in the supernatural. There is only nature wich is divine.

Yes, Jesus Christ was born to a virgin because nobody exactly knew (or could prove) who his father was.

Machmoed. "Tell me or show me a scientist who believe such lie."

I am sure you have heard of parthenogenesis and parthenocarpy. Cloning is also an example.

Reed, What does it have to do with humans. Cloning is not te same as a virgin birth. A woman cannot expect a child ever when not touched by a man and i'm sure you know this fact.

As I have shown in a previous post: Sacrifical animals are prescribed in the Qur'an as part of Hajj. The parentheses, and their contents, in the translations of the Qur'an verses were placed there by the translators, and are not additions made by me. I merely quoted what the translator said.

Now, about your conclusion (2) concernng sacrificing animals:
You claim "It is derived from Bible and propagated by traditional Islamic scholars and jurists, through lies attributed, to apostle /messenger of Allah Muhammad."

The word "Eid" appears in Surat al-Ma'idah "The Table" Qur'an 5:114 where "Eid"
is translated as "solemn festival."

Idul adha (Eid al Adha) is one of two Eid festivals celebrated by Muslims, and its basis comes from the Qur'an Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:196

"And complete the Hajj and 'umrah for Allah. But if you are prevented, then (offer) what can be obtained with ease of SACRIFICIAL animals. And do not shave your heads until the SACRIFICIAL animal has reached its place of SLAUGHTER. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head (making shaving necessary must offer) a ransom of fasting (three days) or charity or SACRIFICE. And when you are secure, then whoever performs 'umrah (during the Hajj months) followed by Hajj (offers) what can be obtained with ease of SACRIFICIAL animals. And whoever cannot find (or afford such an animal) - then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned (home). Those are ten complete (days). This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-Haram. AND FEAR ALLAH AND KNOW THAT ALLAH IS SEVERE IN PENALTY." (The caps are mine)

And Surat 22 Al-Hajj Ayah 33:

"For you the animals marked for SACRIFICE are benefits for a specified term; then their place of SACRIFICE is at the ancient House."

Note that in the above Quran passages: ANIMAL SACRIFICE is attached to the Hajj
and is OBLIGATORY! So your point #3 is also wrong!

The Idul adha or "Eid al Adha" ritual is celebrated by Muslims worldwide, by 1.2 BILLION Muslims and 10s of millions of animals are SACRIFICED TO ALLAH supposedly to commemorate the willingness of Abraham/Ibrahim to sacrifice his son Ishmael (Isma'il). Qur'an Surat Al-Saffat, The Holy Ranks Ayah 37:100-112.

While all Christians and Jews would heartily disagree with the Qur'an's various versions of the Abraham and Ishmael stories (see Genesis 22), what is important here is the fact that the Bible has NO animal sacrifice commemorating Abraham's attempted sacrifice of ISAAC!!!

So, where did you get the idea that the Hajj animal sacrifice came from the Bible?

Actually ALL of the evidence is in favor of the Bible ,and of God existing as taught therein. Although the Bible isn't a history ,archaeological ,or scientific textbook ,it is always correct when it touches on these matters (the city of Jericho for instance was found with all but one small part of the walls collapsed and was burnt just as the Bible describes) . Yes you are right under normal natural circumstances (which are products of God's creative power and sustained by Him. The natural order is just the way in which God normally does things this ,in no way stops Him from intervening in other ways when He deems necessary.) this does not happen. The birth of Jesus was not the product of a normal natural conception. Also the virgin birth was prophesied long before Jesus as the method in which the Messiah would be born( of which prophecies Jesus fulfills them ALL. The odds of anyone fulfilling these prophecies out of pure chance is astronomical). Your objection to miracles just because you haven't witnessed one is like say someone objecting to solar eclipses because they have never seen one (although miracles happen much more often than solar eclipses as I have experienced myself). Solar eclipses are well documented and do happen (the exact same with miracles). This is only a problem for the person who is willingly ignoring the evidence. Nature is not divine.Nature is just a part of God's creation. If nature was itself divine then it would not constantly be destroying parts of itself and causing pain on other parts of itself. If this was so animals wouldn't be eating each other and people wouldn't be killing each other. If nature is divine than it is certainly a very confused and dangerous divinity. Do you really thin something that is truly divine would be so self destructive? Natural laws are just descriptions of what we see happening and just as a map is a description of and area of land it in no way causes ,say the shape of the coastline for example. Natural laws a descriptive and not prescriptive. Besides if God is powerful enough to create these natural laws wouldn't He be capable of bypassing them if He so chose? All of the evidence is in support of God and the Bible. All one has to do is look. As the Bible says in Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Cerebrum123, One of our ancient poet wrote :-

Matarmedini tata marut sakhe tejo subandha jala
Bhratar byoma nivadhha eva bhabatamantya pranamaham --

[Oh mother earth, father air, mate fire, friend water and brother space, being blessed with all your love I bow to thee. ]

Reed, sh-- h-- sh. The institution which awarded you degree on Biology will definitely take it back if it comes to know of your views on virgin birth. Can a baby boy be cloned from a woman?

Yes there are people who believe that nature itself is divine ,but this does not make it so. Just as there are people who believe that the Quran is word for word directly from a real deity named Allah. Besides you had no answer of why if nature is divine it would be causing itself so much pain through natural ,and man made disasters. If nature is divine that means that everyone and everything is a god. This makes Hitler ,Stalin ,Mao, and Mohammed gods. This also means since everyone is a god in their own right that anyone can do anything they please and no one can tell them they are doing something wrong ,because of the divine inside them. This makes everyone equally right on every matter conceivable. This however is not how things are. This is a chaotic system to believe. This would also keep us from developing medicines like antibiotics ,because the viruses and bacteria are now gods. This would also make any chance at logical discussion pointless ,because everyone not matter what they said would be right ,because they are gods. This nullifies any kind of rational thinking of any kind. This is the kind of belief in which science becomes stillborn as history has shown. It also becomes stillborn under polytheism ,because the many gods are chaotic ,and can't be trusted to do their jobs regularly. Only under Christian belief i.e. that God is an orderly and logical God ,that science was able to flourish. In fact a literal belief in a literal Adam spurred on the development of the scientific method. I believe it was Francis Bacon who believed that Adam before the fall ,had an encyclopedic knowledge of all science. Because of this he decided that we should strive to go back to this kind of knowledge. It's this belief that founded modern science. I can't remember who said this ,but there is a quote that goes something like this "If someone tries to take the fruits of Christianity ,but doesn't tend to the roots ,the fruit will wither." Since modern science is one of these fruits (along with religious tolerance ,freedom of religion ,and abolition of slavery(at least in the western world). The roots are something people need to understand and tend to.

A woman is needed in the cloning process even if the original DNA is from a man. Therefor it is possible to get a cloned baby boy from a woman ,just not from her DNA.

Hajj begins with the ritual known as tawaful-qudum (the tawaf of "arrival") and begins at the famous black stone "Al-Hajarul-Aswad" a meteriorite mounted on the east corner of the Ka'aba.

After this comes the sa'y or '"Saee" at Safa O Marwah' which involves a "running" between Safa and Marwa, two small hills which are now enclosed within the Great Mosque precincts. In the Qur'an, this ritual is tied to the story of Hagar's search for water for Ishmael which supposedly took place between these hills. The well she is supposed to have found is the Zam Zam Well which lies just east of the Ka'aba. The running must take place between the hills seven times.

Prior to Islam, Asaf (the image of a man) and Nayelah (the image of a woman) were two idols brought, along the idol Hubal, from Syria. One was placed on Mount Safa and the other on Mount Merwa (Sale, Preliminary Discourse to the Koran, p. 22).
The Qur'an has an interesting verse relating to this rite:

"Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times should compass them round, it is no sin in them." Surah 2:158

This verse implies that there were Muslims who had believed this practice was wrong. In the aHadith it is said that some of the Ansar, prior to their conversion to Islam, worshipped the idol Manat (similar to Ma'at, the Egyptian goddess of fate) and, unlike the other pagans prior to Islam, would not run between Safa and Marwa. These men, even after accepting Islam, were apparently still unwilliing to perform the ceremony until Muhammad came up with this verse recommending it (Muwatta Imam Malik, p. 171).

Clearly, Muhammad simply retained the pagan rituals of running between the two
hills (as well as stoning the pillars and animal sacrifice) as part of his overall adoption of the pagan Arab pilgrimage (Hajj), just as he destroyed the idols in Makkah but retained the ceremonies of circling the Ka'aba and kissing the stone.

Muhammad adopted the pagan Arab pilgrimage en bloc into Islam, and then justified
it on the historical fiction that Abraham was its originator and that later generations perverted its monotheistic origin and emphasis. By adopting Makkah, the Ka'aba and all its fetishes, Muhammad bound the Makkahans, and the Makkah-visiting Arabs, to his new regime and faith as nothing else could have done.

The greatest irony of this whole charade is that its origin should be attributed to Abraham, a man who, according to the Qur'an, detested idols made of stone and
destroyed them (Surah 37:91-93).

The whole emphasis of the Hajj revolves around stones: The Muslims circumambulate the Ka'aba, an empty shrine made of stones; kiss the Black Stone built into it; and pray at the maqam-i-Ibrahim in front of which stands a small shrine containing another stone (the qadam-i-Ibrahim) on which Abraham allegedly stood while building the Ka'aba (it is supposed to bear his footprint). Arafat is a plain on which the Mount of Mercy stands, covered with stones and a stone monolith commemorating Muhammad's farewell sermon. At Mina the pilgrims throw small stones at larger stone pillars.

It is ludicrous to believe that the great patriarch - the exemplar of true faith in those very early days - was the author of ceremonies whose rites were vested in stones, the very things from which the pagan idols were made.

I agree with you that sacrificing animals does not make them holy (point 4),
however 1.2 billion Muslims disagree with us. Please read about Halal, the sacrifice of animals to Allah.

You state in your conclusion #5: 'These animals are symbols like other Symbols like "Saee" at Safa O Marwah.'

I fail to see how sacrificing animals is just a 'symbol' in any way comparable to running around a couple of hills. The first involves a bloody slaughter of animals that dates back to pre-Islamic pagan rituals, while the other, however silly, hurts no one.