Dr. Zakir Naik claims that Islam is the superior religion, because it puts people on the right path, meaning it lead one to realize that 2+2 = 4, the right calculations, not otherwise. But Islam claims that Allah revealed 7 versions of the Quran and we have only one. So, Islam teaches 7 = 1, not quite the right calculation as Dr. Naik claims.
In one of his Urdu TV programs, Dr. Zakir Naik answers the question, asked by the anchor, as to why Islam claims superiority over all other religions. Dr Naik argued that Islam teaches him the right path, to get the correct answer as 2+2=4, whereas the other religions lead one to wrong calculations. In this way, he jokingly entertains the questions from gullible Muslims on his programs. In fact, he and his master Ahmad Deedat have made aware countess Muslims about the supremacist nature of Islam. They didn’t bother to know about their religion before. Thanks to Deedat and Zakir!
7 QURANS IN 23 YEARS, ALL IN ARABIC
It may not be shocking to Muslims, but to non-Muslims, it will be shocking to know that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad in seven different modes – over the incredibly long period of twenty three years – and all the seven Qurans were compiled in book forms only after the death of Muhammad. After nearly 20 years of their compilations, Uthm’an, the third caliph, canonized the Quran into a singular codex out of 7 versions, and ordered the other six versions of the Quran be “BURNED” throughout the Islamic empire. So hundreds of Qurans of the 6 other versions were cremated without ceremony.
Do all Muslims know this fact?
How do Muslims react when they come to know that Allah’s books revealed to guide humankind – not one but six of them and each of them probably as important and “sacred” as the present Quran – were burned to ashes, leaving no trace of them?
EVIDENCE FOR 7 VERSIONS OF THE QURAN
The following ahadith are the evidence that the Quran was allegedly revealed to Muhammad in seven different versions and that it was not in a book form even after the death of Muhammad.
Sahih Al-bukhari Volume 3, Book 41, Number 601:
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: ‘………….When he recited it, Allah’s Apostle said, “It was revealed in this way.” He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, “It was revealed in this way. The Quran has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you.”
QURAN WAS NOT IN BOOK FORM
The next hadith is a proof that the Muhammad did not bother to compile his Quran into a book form during his life and not a single one from ‘the great Sahaba’ knew the Quran by heart completely, as today’s many ordinary Muslims do. By compiling the Quran in the book form, Muhammad’s “Rightly guided Caliphs” abrogated Muhammad’s principle.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 6:509:
Narrated by Zaid bin Thaabit:
Umar bin Khattab asked Abu Bakr to collect the Quran from different sources and compile it to a BOOK FORM. Then Abu Bakr replied to him, “How can you do something which Allah’s Messenger did not do?”……..
ALLAH LIES IN HIS QURAN
Whereas, Allah asserts at many instance in His Quran that He revealed the Quran to Muhammad in a BOOK form. Here are the two sample verses from the Quran.
- “Recite what is sent of the BOOK by inspiration to thee and establish Regular Prayer. (Quran Al Ankabut 29:45).
- “That which We have revealed to thee of the BOOK is the Truth confirming what was revealed before it. (Quran Al Fatir 35:31).
HOLY BURNING OF 6 VERSIONS OF THE HOLY QURAN
 |
The following hadith narrates how Uthman burnt the 6 versions of the Quran allegedly given by Allah. It is very easy in Islam to abrogate Allah’s wish.
Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6:510:
Narrated by Anas bin Malik: “…Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt…”
The readers, who are interested to know more references about the seven versions of the Quran may refer to these hadiths: Sahih Al Bukhari Vol 4:442, Sahih Muslim 1787, Al-Tirmidhi 2215.
So, these hadiths confirm that Allah had revealed the Quran to Muhammad in 7 different modes; no Sahaba knew the Quran completely by heart; the Quran was not in the book form even after the death of Muhammad; and Uthman burnt the remaining 6 versions of the Quran after he, 20 years after the death of Muhammad, compiled a version of his own.
PERSPICUOUS ARABIC OF ALLAH
Allah on the other hand says in His Quran the following:
- We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur’an in order that ye may be learn wisdom. (Quran, Sura Yusuf 12:2).
- Thus we sent this down an Arabic Quran. (Quran, Sura Ta Ha 20:113).
- In the perspicuous Arabic tongue. (Quran, Sura Al Shu’ara 26:195)
- It is a Quran in Arabic without any crookedness therein: in order that they may guard against Evil. (Quran, Sura Al Zumar 39:28).
- A Book whereof the verses are explained in detail a Quran in Arabic for people who understand. (Quran, Sura Fussilat 41:3).
So, in these verses, Allah says that He revealed the Quran for guiding humanity in Arabic, because Arabic is a perspicuous and the best language for its easy and clear understanding.
If Allah’s Quranic Arabic language is so superior, then why did he borrow too many words from other languages into His Quran, such as Hebrew, Abyssinian, Persian, Syrian, Greek and so on?
Moreover, why did He send His Quran in 7 modes of Arabic language?
If Allah were bothered about the vast part of his creation living in other parts of world, then He would have sent the other 6 versions in their languages too.
How could Allah be so stupid to send seven versions of His Quran in the same language?
His followers are certainly not as stupid to follow His all 7 versions of the Quran. So, they, showing greater commonsense and intelligence, have selected just one Quran for themselves and burned the other 6 versions.
So, Dr. Zakir! 7=1 is what Islam truly teaches? Not quite the right calculations Islam teaches as you claim.
The Quranic inheritance law is another gross mathematical bungle of Allah (see videos). If a Muslim wants to follow the inheritance law mentioned in the Quran, he/she surely will go mad. Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran – illiterate as he was – proved his idiocy by fabricating such stupid verses.
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written by Machmoed , February 18, 2012
7 qiraats show evidentially that there were different masaheef (qur'ans) and hints out that it wasn't an oral tradition from the start but rather scriptual. The reason that Uthman ordered to burn and burry other qur'ans was because they were different. Even qur'ans from 8th and 9th century were slight different than we have today. It was untill midth 9th century when the qur'an was fully completed as we know it today and even today we have slight differences (warsh/hafs etc.)
written by Muslim & Proud , February 18, 2012
Mirza,
Here is the full Hadith Mr........you are trying to be deviant by cherry picking (a typical approach of Islam haters)
I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to that of mine. Allah's Apostle had taught it to me (in a different way). So, I was about to quarrel with him (during the prayer) but I waited till he finished, then I tied his garment round his neck and seized him by it and brought him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I have heard him reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to the way you taught it to me." The Prophet ordered me to release him and asked Hisham to recite it. When he recited it, Allah s Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way." He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, "It was revealed in this way. The Qur'an has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you."
The Hadith is referring to the METHOD OF RECITATION. Please note from the Hadith that both Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam (ra) & 'Umar bin Al-Khattab (ra) RECITED Surah Al-Furqan - The RECITATION had bee taught in a DIFFERENT WAY.
"The third category are the vast majority of Muslims, who cheat others as well as themselves due to ignorance. They are the moderate Muslims, who don’t want to study on their own about their religion, but to believe blindly to their deceptive clerics. Even if they were informed about the absurdities of Islam, they never take it seriously and never bothered to scrutiny it. They feel lucky enough to be Muslims and continue Islamic routine duties blindly. Most of the non-Muslim infidels were and are being deceived by this lot, as if they are the true representatives of Islam. The moderate Muslims are dangerous than the fundamentalist terrorists and a real threat to humanity."
Thank you for confirming that the VAST majority of muslims are not EXTREMISTS. Well done.
"Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran – illiterate as he was – proved his idiocy by fabricating such stupid verses."
Mirza, you are refuting yourself in this one statement.
You are claiming that an illeterate person has wrote a book. Well done for proving yourself to be a fool.
The meaning of Illeterate: INABILITY TO READ AND WRITE. HOW CAN SOMEBODY, WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WAS ILLETERATE, BE THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK.......YOU'RE PATHETIC
Here is the full Hadith Mr........you are trying to be deviant by cherry picking (a typical approach of Islam haters)
I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to that of mine. Allah's Apostle had taught it to me (in a different way). So, I was about to quarrel with him (during the prayer) but I waited till he finished, then I tied his garment round his neck and seized him by it and brought him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I have heard him reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to the way you taught it to me." The Prophet ordered me to release him and asked Hisham to recite it. When he recited it, Allah s Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way." He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, "It was revealed in this way. The Qur'an has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you."
The Hadith is referring to the METHOD OF RECITATION. Please note from the Hadith that both Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam (ra) & 'Umar bin Al-Khattab (ra) RECITED Surah Al-Furqan - The RECITATION had bee taught in a DIFFERENT WAY.
"The third category are the vast majority of Muslims, who cheat others as well as themselves due to ignorance. They are the moderate Muslims, who don’t want to study on their own about their religion, but to believe blindly to their deceptive clerics. Even if they were informed about the absurdities of Islam, they never take it seriously and never bothered to scrutiny it. They feel lucky enough to be Muslims and continue Islamic routine duties blindly. Most of the non-Muslim infidels were and are being deceived by this lot, as if they are the true representatives of Islam. The moderate Muslims are dangerous than the fundamentalist terrorists and a real threat to humanity."
Thank you for confirming that the VAST majority of muslims are not EXTREMISTS. Well done.
"Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran – illiterate as he was – proved his idiocy by fabricating such stupid verses."
Mirza, you are refuting yourself in this one statement.
You are claiming that an illeterate person has wrote a book. Well done for proving yourself to be a fool.
The meaning of Illeterate: INABILITY TO READ AND WRITE. HOW CAN SOMEBODY, WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WAS ILLETERATE, BE THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK.......YOU'RE PATHETIC
written by Editor, MA Khan , February 18, 2012
Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says. He spoke some rubbish, which any illiterate man can say, claiming as God's verses, and Muhammad certainly never wanted them into a book.
written by rzq , February 18, 2012
Trying to clutch on to anything! A good reciter (quari) of the Quran will know the different quirats. Are the meanings different? NO!
Were the sahabi hafizoon, of course they were! Infact in the battle of yarmama Islam lost alot of hafizoon and it was that very reason the Quran was compiled.
The reason it was codified as a single codex was because of the rapid expansion of Islam! EG people in modern day Iraq began saying we read the Quran better than others. Hence leading a path to sin! So a single codex fixed that issue!
Were the sahabi hafizoon, of course they were! Infact in the battle of yarmama Islam lost alot of hafizoon and it was that very reason the Quran was compiled.
The reason it was codified as a single codex was because of the rapid expansion of Islam! EG people in modern day Iraq began saying we read the Quran better than others. Hence leading a path to sin! So a single codex fixed that issue!
written by vbv , February 18, 2012
That Muhamad was a charlatan who invented a "religion" to further his political ambitions and also his sexual urges ,since he married an old hag who was 15 years older than him for her money and social status. He must have been sexually frustrated that he started marrying left ,right and centre by force the captured and defeated women and wife of his adopted son ( that is why adoption is not accepted in islam ), taking to bed others' wives ( adultry is accepted only for this socalled prophet while others are to be stoned to death). Quran was just a babble from this charlatan and the version that is now available may have been doctored and modified by his followers to suit their political needs. Muslims are experts in destroying anything that poses a challenge to them. Their destruction of the thousands of temples in India ,as well as the famous ancient universities in Taxila and Nalanda among others are well known in history.
Zakir Naik is a paid agent of Saudi Arabia who will do their bidding even to betray his own country , to submit to the the arab supremacy ,and destroy India . He has no credibilty even among most muslims in India, who know his nefarious designs and his intolerant outbursts and blatant lies.
Zakir Naik is a paid agent of Saudi Arabia who will do their bidding even to betray his own country , to submit to the the arab supremacy ,and destroy India . He has no credibilty even among most muslims in India, who know his nefarious designs and his intolerant outbursts and blatant lies.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 18, 2012
Mr Khan,
You said: "Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says."
This is what your friend Mirza said:
"Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
Author: the composer of a literary work; writer.
You are therefore denying what has been written by Mirza - IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE, yet you are unable to see it.........very comical indeed.
Here's the best bit Mr Khan,
You then said: "and Muhammad certainly never wanted them into a book."
So according to YOU, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), DID NOT WANT THEM INTO A BOOK.
So you are therefore refuting Mirza, who claimed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Author of the Holy Qur'an.
You guys are class - I am having stomach pains laughing at you mocking each other......yes mocking.....and you don't even realise it......
Rzq - Nice post Bro.
You said: "Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says."
This is what your friend Mirza said:
"Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
Author: the composer of a literary work; writer.
You are therefore denying what has been written by Mirza - IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE, yet you are unable to see it.........very comical indeed.
Here's the best bit Mr Khan,
You then said: "and Muhammad certainly never wanted them into a book."
So according to YOU, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), DID NOT WANT THEM INTO A BOOK.
So you are therefore refuting Mirza, who claimed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Author of the Holy Qur'an.
You guys are class - I am having stomach pains laughing at you mocking each other......yes mocking.....and you don't even realise it......
Rzq - Nice post Bro.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 18, 2012
"That Muhamad was a charlatan who invented a "religion" to further his political ambitions and also his sexual urges ,since he married an old hag who was 15 years older than him for her money and social status. He must have been sexually frustrated that he started marrying left ,right and centre by force the captured and defeated women and wife of his adopted son ( that is why adoption is not accepted in islam ), taking to bed others' wives ( adultry is accepted only for this socalled prophet while others are to be stoned to death)."
According to YOU, everything above is concoted lies, since the source of your accusations is your misinterpreation of the Hadith.
Well done.
According to YOU, everything above is concoted lies, since the source of your accusations is your misinterpreation of the Hadith.
Well done.
written by duh_swami , February 18, 2012
What the Quran needs is a good editor...Whoever wrote it only had a third grade education...Whoever wrote it is not even a good story teller, the Bible writers were excellent story tellers...There never was or is any God called Allah, there never was a demon in the cave that pressed Mohammad three times and ordered him to read...What? There never were any visits from an female arch angel named Gabriel, who told Mohammad a lot of irrelevant and disjointed stuff...He never had a night journey to any furthest mosque, but he did rape his child bride Aisha...and robbed and murdered a lot of people...and is responsible for demoralizing billions...
written by Muslim and proud , February 18, 2012
"but he did rape his child bride Aisha...and robbed and murdered a lot of people."
Duh,
According to you, not a "single" Hadith can be trusted - therefore you disagree with the above.
Duh,
According to you, not a "single" Hadith can be trusted - therefore you disagree with the above.
written by duh_swami , February 18, 2012
All hadith stories are 'according to'...That means that some of the stories may not be reliable...If a Muslim liar read my posts carefully, he would discover that I did not say all hadith were unreliable...Many of them are of interest about how people lived in those days...All of them having to do with the glories of Mohammad, and Islamic policies are fake...The entire hadith, taken as a whole is designed to make it 'appear' as though Mohammad was a real person living those every day events, in a futile effort to give Islam credibility, by making Mohammad credible...It is interesting that whoever was responsible, left in all that nasty stuff about a guy they revered...Or at least we are supposed to think they revered him...It is they who claim Mohammad raped Aisha when she was nine, not me, I am just pointing it out...If a Muslim has an argument, it is with them and not me...
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
allah says
"i send you quran in arabic so that you can understand and teach others" allah was addressing arabs.
that makes sense. if i have to learn chinese literature i must go to a chinese not to english.
muslims should only take lessons or teachings over quran from an arab not a stupid like zakir naik
a muslim may go to learn quran to zakir naik if there are no arabs left on earth.
how stupid zakir naik can translate quran when his language is not arabic.
"i send you quran in arabic so that you can understand and teach others" allah was addressing arabs.
that makes sense. if i have to learn chinese literature i must go to a chinese not to english.
muslims should only take lessons or teachings over quran from an arab not a stupid like zakir naik
a muslim may go to learn quran to zakir naik if there are no arabs left on earth.
how stupid zakir naik can translate quran when his language is not arabic.
written by duh_swami , February 18, 2012
allah says
Actually Allah never said anything, he is only quoted by people who also have never heard him speak...
Actually Allah never said anything, he is only quoted by people who also have never heard him speak...
written by Muslim and proud , February 18, 2012
"that makes sense. if i have to learn chinese literature i must go to a chinese not to english."
I think you will find many English people teach Chinese.
Duh - I will find the post where you admitted that the Hadith cannot be reused - rest assured liar.....my friend.
One thin is for sure, your editor is certainly a liar - as proven above ;-)
I think you will find many English people teach Chinese.
Duh - I will find the post where you admitted that the Hadith cannot be reused - rest assured liar.....my friend.
One thin is for sure, your editor is certainly a liar - as proven above ;-)
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
Inclusion of Dots
It was not customary amongst early Arabs to place dots on letters. Scribes simply wrote words without any markings. Readers were so accustomed to this style that they experienced no difficulty in reading the dot-less writings and could easily distinguish between doubtful letters by reference to the context. In fact, it was often considered to be an insult to include dots in writing. The renowned historian Mada’ini has quoted someone as saying, “To include numerous dots in writing should amount to suspicion about (the comprehension of) the addressee.” ( Subh al-A‘sha by Qalqashandi 3:154)
Hence the transcripts of Sayyiduna ‘Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) were devoid of any dots, and apart from prevalent custom, this exclusion’s primary purpose was also to incorporate all the mass-transmitted recitals in the script. Later, however, dots were placed on letters for the convenience of non-Arabs and less educated Muslims.
Reports differ as to who was the first to place dots on the Quranic manuscript. Some reports claim that the feat was first accomplished by Abu ’l-Aswad al-Du’ali (al-Burhan 1:250, al-Itqan 2:171). Some say that he did it on the instructions of Sayyiduna ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). Still others say that the Governor of Kufah, Ziyad bin Abi Sufyan requested him to do so (Subh al-A‘sha 3:155). There are also reports that state that ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan asked him to do it (al-Itqan 2:171). There is yet another report that Hajjaj bin Yusuf order it done with the help of Hasan al-Basri, Yahya bin Ya‘mur, and Nasr ibn ‘Asim al-Laythi (Tafsir al-Qurtubi 1:63)
ABOVE EXPLAINS THERE WERE NO DOTS OR DIACRITICAL MARKS ON QURANIC WORDS UNTIL THE TIMES OF HAJJAJ BIN YOUSAF
MUSLIMS WERE RECITING QURAN IN DIFFERENT WAYS DUE TO ABSENCE OF DOTS AND DIACRITICAL MARKS
WHEN ONE RECITES QURAN WITHOUT DOTS AND DIACRITICAL MARKS (AND THIS IS WHAT EARLY MUSLIMS WERE DOING) IT WILL DEFINITELY CHANGE THE MEANINGS AS WELL THEREFORE DIFFERENT TRANSLATIONS
WHEN FINALLY DOTS AND DIACRITICAL MARKS WERE INSTALLED BY HAJJAJ BIN YOUSAF (AD 700) HOW MUSLIMS GAURANTEE THE MEANINGS TO BE SAME AS ORIGINAL QURAN???
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
M & PEE
You didnt read my post and commented
Would you go to english teacher to learn chinese or to a chinese teacher???
I coundnt believe you can be so stupid M & PEE no doubt you are following zakir naik another idiot.
You didnt read my post and commented
Would you go to english teacher to learn chinese or to a chinese teacher???
I coundnt believe you can be so stupid M & PEE no doubt you are following zakir naik another idiot.
written by Muslim and proud , February 18, 2012
A person can still go to an English person to learn Chinese, providing the english teacher is QUALIFIED Einstein
Good grief
Good grief
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
M & PEE
When allahs language is ARABIC when muhammad (king of prophets) language is arabic than you non arabic
slaves of allah and muhammad must go to an arab to learn an arabic book not to an idiot zakir naik whose
language is not arabic.
This is my point M & PEEEE
When allahs language is ARABIC when muhammad (king of prophets) language is arabic than you non arabic
slaves of allah and muhammad must go to an arab to learn an arabic book not to an idiot zakir naik whose
language is not arabic.
This is my point M & PEEEE
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
M & PEEE
For understanding Quran (allahs book) who himself preffered arabic and send it to arabs you prefer a non arab
teacher (idiot zakir naik)
why M & PEEE?? Why i want to know.M & PEEE
Do you think arabs have distorted quran OR zakir naik (a non arab) knows quran more than arabs????
For understanding Quran (allahs book) who himself preffered arabic and send it to arabs you prefer a non arab
teacher (idiot zakir naik)
why M & PEEE?? Why i want to know.M & PEEE
Do you think arabs have distorted quran OR zakir naik (a non arab) knows quran more than arabs????
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
M & PEEE
After 1400 years idiot zakir naik is changing and twisting quranic words. This is his Qualification
How you believe zakir naik is more qualified than arabs??? please elaborate
Also You are negating allah who prefered arabs to understand quran!!!
After 1400 years idiot zakir naik is changing and twisting quranic words. This is his Qualification
How you believe zakir naik is more qualified than arabs??? please elaborate
Also You are negating allah who prefered arabs to understand quran!!!
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
"A person can still go to an English person to learn Chinese, providing the english teacher is QUALIFIED Einstein
Good grief"
M & PEEE
Can you say this to allah who prefered and thinks ARABS are most QUALIFIED to understand islam
M & P Plz do not argue something u dont understand or u r possessed to stay on this site??
Good grief"
M & PEEE
Can you say this to allah who prefered and thinks ARABS are most QUALIFIED to understand islam
M & P Plz do not argue something u dont understand or u r possessed to stay on this site??
written by Editor, MA Khan , February 18, 2012
I say a lot of things in life without wanting them to be written into books. But after my death, some of my associates may compile what I said and make a book. That's not me writing a book, although I am technically the author of the book. So, writing a book and being an author of a book are not the same thing. All average people understand this simple thing.
You may think playing word games makes your case stronger and prove you intelligent. It may prove the opposite of what you think. Islam is known to make some people zombies to the extent of turning them suicidal, and you are no different, but in a different sense.
You may think playing word games makes your case stronger and prove you intelligent. It may prove the opposite of what you think. Islam is known to make some people zombies to the extent of turning them suicidal, and you are no different, but in a different sense.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
Mr Khan said: "Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says."
Mirza said: "Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
You said: "the composer of a literary work; writer."
You chose one definition of *author*. It has other definitions:
1. a person who writes a novel, poem, essay, etc.; the composer of a literary work, as distinguished from a compiler, translator, editor, or copyist.
2. the literary production or productions of a writer: to find a passage in an author.
3. the maker of anything; creator; originator: the author of a new tax plan.
4. Computers . the writer of a software program, especially a hypertext or multimedia application.
Note definition #3.
So your criticism is refuted. Mr Khan did not contradict Mirza.
Going forward, please don't cherry pick definitions. Read all the definitions before formulating your criticisms. This is a more rational way of posting.
BTW, you still haven't answered my question. Why do you believe that Allah exists?
Mirza said: "Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
You said: "the composer of a literary work; writer."
You chose one definition of *author*. It has other definitions:
1. a person who writes a novel, poem, essay, etc.; the composer of a literary work, as distinguished from a compiler, translator, editor, or copyist.
2. the literary production or productions of a writer: to find a passage in an author.
3. the maker of anything; creator; originator: the author of a new tax plan.
4. Computers . the writer of a software program, especially a hypertext or multimedia application.
Note definition #3.
So your criticism is refuted. Mr Khan did not contradict Mirza.
Going forward, please don't cherry pick definitions. Read all the definitions before formulating your criticisms. This is a more rational way of posting.
BTW, you still haven't answered my question. Why do you believe that Allah exists?
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
"One thing is for sure, your editor is certainly a liar - as proven above."
Wait. I didn't read any proof that Mr Khan is a liar. Please explain your position.
And please explain your assertion rather than just providing a bald assertion.
Wait. I didn't read any proof that Mr Khan is a liar. Please explain your position.
And please explain your assertion rather than just providing a bald assertion.
written by duh_swami , February 18, 2012
Please explain your position.
You may have to wait a long time for that...and when you do get it, it will bounce all over the place like a ping pong ball in a box...
You may have to wait a long time for that...and when you do get it, it will bounce all over the place like a ping pong ball in a box...
written by Muslim & Proud , February 18, 2012
Mr Khan said: "Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says."
The article says: "Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
In the non extremist world, a person who writes a book is referred to as an Author.
Maybe that might be different in the Islamaphobic world.
Try reading with your glasses on - that usually helps ;-)
The article says: "Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
In the non extremist world, a person who writes a book is referred to as an Author.
Maybe that might be different in the Islamaphobic world.
Try reading with your glasses on - that usually helps ;-)
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
Mr Khan said: "Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says."
You replied: "The article says: 'Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran'. In the non extremist world, a person who writes a book is referred to as an Author. Maybe that might be different in the Islamaphobic world."
Uh.. Are you retracting your claim that Mr Khan is a liar? Or are you standing by your original claim that Mr Khan is a liar?
I'm not sure because what you wrote is not proof of anything.
Please note that a proof requires an assertion and an explanation of the assertion.
You replied: "The article says: 'Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran'. In the non extremist world, a person who writes a book is referred to as an Author. Maybe that might be different in the Islamaphobic world."
Uh.. Are you retracting your claim that Mr Khan is a liar? Or are you standing by your original claim that Mr Khan is a liar?
I'm not sure because what you wrote is not proof of anything.
Please note that a proof requires an assertion and an explanation of the assertion.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 18, 2012
"Please note that a proof requires an assertion and an explanation of the assertion. "
Whatever you say son. The facts are there:
Mr Khan said: "Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says."
The article says: "Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
Therefore, Mr Khan is saying that the article says "Muhammad NEVER WROTE A BOOK"
Whereas Mirza refers to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as an AUTHOR
What planet are you on son?
Whatever you say son. The facts are there:
Mr Khan said: "Muhammad never wrote a book. That's what this article says."
The article says: "Once again Muhammad, the author of the Quran"
Therefore, Mr Khan is saying that the article says "Muhammad NEVER WROTE A BOOK"
Whereas Mirza refers to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as an AUTHOR
What planet are you on son?
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
You wrote: "I believe the Holy Qur'an is complete and is the same Holy Qur'an that was revealed c1400 years ago."
Why do you believe this?
Is this just a bald assertion? Or do you have an explanation that supports your assertion?
As for this article, clearly it directly contradicts your belief. So either your belief is true, or this article is true. They can not both be true.
So tell me what about the article you don't agree with. Please quote one or more statements from the article and provide your criticism.
If you do not do this, then you are irrationally accepting one idea over another.
Rational means truth-seeking. So irrational means not seeking the truth.
A rational person is open-minded, i.e. willing to change his mind. And an irrational person is close-minded, i.e. unwilling to change is him.
So are you (1) open-minded or (2) close-minded?
If (1), then you'll provide your criticism of this article and you'll provide it in the form of an assertion and its associated explanation.
If (2), why are you close-minded?
Why do you believe this?
Is this just a bald assertion? Or do you have an explanation that supports your assertion?
As for this article, clearly it directly contradicts your belief. So either your belief is true, or this article is true. They can not both be true.
So tell me what about the article you don't agree with. Please quote one or more statements from the article and provide your criticism.
If you do not do this, then you are irrationally accepting one idea over another.
Rational means truth-seeking. So irrational means not seeking the truth.
A rational person is open-minded, i.e. willing to change his mind. And an irrational person is close-minded, i.e. unwilling to change is him.
So are you (1) open-minded or (2) close-minded?
If (1), then you'll provide your criticism of this article and you'll provide it in the form of an assertion and its associated explanation.
If (2), why are you close-minded?
written by Muslim and proud , February 18, 2012
"You wrote: "I believe the Holy Qur'an is complete and is the same Holy Qur'an that was revealed c1400 years ago."
Why do you believe this?"
I am a Muslim
"As for this article, clearly it directly contradicts your belief. So either your belief is true, or this article is true. They can not both be true.
So tell me what about the article you don't agree with. Please quote one or more statements from the article and provide your criticism."
Please refer to my first post.
Ps. I am absolutely open minded, 'within the boundary of Shariah'
Why do you believe this?"
I am a Muslim
"As for this article, clearly it directly contradicts your belief. So either your belief is true, or this article is true. They can not both be true.
So tell me what about the article you don't agree with. Please quote one or more statements from the article and provide your criticism."
Please refer to my first post.
Ps. I am absolutely open minded, 'within the boundary of Shariah'
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
You wrote: "I believe the Holy Qur'an is complete and is the same Holy Qur'an that was revealed c1400 years ago."
I asked: "Why do you believe this?"
You answered: "I am a Muslim."
Ok. So why are you a muslim?
I asked: "Why do you believe this?"
You answered: "I am a Muslim."
Ok. So why are you a muslim?
written by rzq , February 18, 2012
"You wrote: "I believe the Holy Qur'an is complete and is the same Holy Qur'an that was revealed c1400 years ago."
Why do you believe this?"
let's say we made you king for the day mr fineliving son.
You then decreed that all torahs, psalms, bibles, ghitas and thalmuds, to be gathered and all hard drives to be deleted. You took this pile of books and threw them into the ocean. You then asked the Muslims to do the same. You then took the pile of qurans and threw them into the ocean also.
I guarentee you that the Quran is the only book that will be in circulation within 24hrs without a single mistake! The entire book is memorised from cover to cover by thousands of Muslims in every corner of the world. This has been the case for the last 1400 years! A hafiz in Timbuktu will have it exactly the same as a hafiz in Washington. That is why it has not been changed from the time of muhammed(pbuh)
Why do you believe this?"
let's say we made you king for the day mr fineliving son.
You then decreed that all torahs, psalms, bibles, ghitas and thalmuds, to be gathered and all hard drives to be deleted. You took this pile of books and threw them into the ocean. You then asked the Muslims to do the same. You then took the pile of qurans and threw them into the ocean also.
I guarentee you that the Quran is the only book that will be in circulation within 24hrs without a single mistake! The entire book is memorised from cover to cover by thousands of Muslims in every corner of the world. This has been the case for the last 1400 years! A hafiz in Timbuktu will have it exactly the same as a hafiz in Washington. That is why it has not been changed from the time of muhammed(pbuh)
written by rzq , February 18, 2012
The prophet muhammed(pbuh) was tasked with memorising the Quran.
He would be tested regularly by the angel Gabriel.
The sahabi would remember the Quran and be tested by the prophet himself.
Since those days the chain of hafizoon is unbroken until today.
That is why I can say with certainty that remains unchanged from now until the end of time itself. There will be a Muslim hafiz somewhere who will bear whitness to its authenticity.
Is there any other book or literature that can say this??? No indeed!
He would be tested regularly by the angel Gabriel.
The sahabi would remember the Quran and be tested by the prophet himself.
Since those days the chain of hafizoon is unbroken until today.
That is why I can say with certainty that remains unchanged from now until the end of time itself. There will be a Muslim hafiz somewhere who will bear whitness to its authenticity.
Is there any other book or literature that can say this??? No indeed!
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
So I think you mean that your criticism of the article is this one statement:
"The Hadith is referring to the METHOD OF RECITATION. Please note from the Hadith that both Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam (ra) & 'Umar bin Al-Khattab (ra) RECITED Surah Al-Furqan - The RECITATION had bee taught in a DIFFERENT WAY."
But you haven't addressed this Hadith. Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6:510:
Narrated by Anas bin Malik: “…Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt…”
Why have you not addressed this part? It is an authentic Hadith, so you consider it true. And it clearly states that 6 versions were destroyed. Yet you believe that there only ever existed 1 version.
This is doublethink. Are you being open-minded about this?
Do you still believe that the Quran has never changed since it was created?
Or do you believe that Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6:510 is false?
"The Hadith is referring to the METHOD OF RECITATION. Please note from the Hadith that both Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam (ra) & 'Umar bin Al-Khattab (ra) RECITED Surah Al-Furqan - The RECITATION had bee taught in a DIFFERENT WAY."
But you haven't addressed this Hadith. Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6:510:
Narrated by Anas bin Malik: “…Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt…”
Why have you not addressed this part? It is an authentic Hadith, so you consider it true. And it clearly states that 6 versions were destroyed. Yet you believe that there only ever existed 1 version.
This is doublethink. Are you being open-minded about this?
Do you still believe that the Quran has never changed since it was created?
Or do you believe that Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6:510 is false?
written by fineliving56 , February 18, 2012
Sure … just like outstanding Sharia that you and your little muslim brother believe in …
Like sharia of stoning …beheadings …cutting hands from different sides …slashes …. child marriages …
By helping Hamsa from beheading in Saudi by sighing the petition today like Rzq said ….goes against sharia
which is it? … are and your friend….. with or not with, sharia?
It cannot be both?
Like sharia of stoning …beheadings …cutting hands from different sides …slashes …. child marriages …
By helping Hamsa from beheading in Saudi by sighing the petition today like Rzq said ….goes against sharia
which is it? … are and your friend….. with or not with, sharia?
It cannot be both?
written by Muslim and proud , February 18, 2012
Please refer to the outstanding response given by my brother Rzq re your question.
As for the questions regarding my first post, can you please kindly respond to my points first - surely that would be the decent thing to do as I posted my refutation first. I promise to come back to your questions.
Oh and btw, here is the correct Hadith which Mirza has conveniently misquoted:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him.
Source: http://haditsbukharionline.blo...quran.html
Feel free to check it Vol 6 - 509
I hope you are open minded about this ;-)
As for the questions regarding my first post, can you please kindly respond to my points first - surely that would be the decent thing to do as I posted my refutation first. I promise to come back to your questions.
Oh and btw, here is the correct Hadith which Mirza has conveniently misquoted:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him.
Source: http://haditsbukharionline.blo...quran.html
Feel free to check it Vol 6 - 509
I hope you are open minded about this ;-)
written by Muslim and proud , February 18, 2012
I am very busy just now as I have a life.
2300 GMT - I will be back to refute you once and for all.
Be here if you can and make sure you keep a decent spade nearby.
See you at 2300
2300 GMT - I will be back to refute you once and for all.
Be here if you can and make sure you keep a decent spade nearby.
See you at 2300
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
"I will be back to refute you once and for all."
You will refute my criticism? My criticism is that you haven't criticized Mizra's explanation that there existed more than 1 version of Quran. How could you possibly refute my criticism? You clearly did not address Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6:510 in your criticism of Mizra's explanation.
So I guess you meant to say that you *intend to provide a new criticism of Mizra's explanation*, not that you *intend to refute my criticism*.
You will refute my criticism? My criticism is that you haven't criticized Mizra's explanation that there existed more than 1 version of Quran. How could you possibly refute my criticism? You clearly did not address Sahih Al-Bukhari volume 6:510 in your criticism of Mizra's explanation.
So I guess you meant to say that you *intend to provide a new criticism of Mizra's explanation*, not that you *intend to refute my criticism*.
written by rzq , February 18, 2012
Quirat has many styles, meaning still the same! What don't you get?
"the man went up the hill"
"up the hill the man went"
2 sentences written. Same meaning!
With me?????
"the man went up the hill"
"up the hill the man went"
2 sentences written. Same meaning!
With me?????
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
M & P and rzq
Lets do a little test and it will prove Quran could ever change or not. This test is as per rzq logic
rzq will hafiz (learn by heart) quran and then recite it to M & P. M & P will hafiz quran from rzq and than all dots
and punctuation marks will be removed.
Once again M & P will recite and rzq will hafiz quran without dots and the same he will repeat to M & P.
Both will do this exercise only 10 times and we will see if quran is changed or not.
These two guys are laughable and their logics. One word passing through 10 people will change and they are saying quran never changed
Please inform us which sahaba were present at the time of Hajjaj Bin Yousaf when he was putting dots and punctuation on quran.
If quran never changed why sunni muslims have 4 Imams authentic quran translators ( malik, shaafi, hanafi,
jumbal) translating quran in 4 different ways.
If quran never changed how zakir naik is changing meanings of quranic words ( eg meanings of dahahaaa as ostrich egg to prove earth is egg shaped) and similarly many other meanings he has changed never found
in previous translations.
M & P and rzq are u ready for the test???
written by Yibel , February 18, 2012
was respected not only as a warrior and leader, but as a writer and religious authority. According to Islamic tradition, his numerous range of disciplines went from theology and exegesis to calligraphy and numerology, from law and mysticism to Arabic grammar and Rhetoric; all are regarded as having been first adumbrated by Ali.
According to Hadith which is narrated by Shia and Sufis, Muhammad told about Ali: "I'm the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate..."
Muslims regard Ali as a major authority on Islam. Ali himself gives this testimony:
Not a single verse of the Qur'an descended upon (was revealed to) the Messenger of Allah which he did not proceed to dictate to me and make me recite. I would write it with my own hand, and he would instruct me as to its tafsir (the literal explanation) and the ta'wil (the spiritual exegesis), the nasikh (the verse which abrogates) and the mansukh (the abrogated verse), the muhkam and the mutashabih (the fixed and the ambiguous), the particular and the general...
According to Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Ali is credited with having established Islamic theology and his quotations contain the first proofs among Muslims of the concept of the Unity of Allah. That is, Ali is the one who combined the 99 gods of Muhammad's pantheon into the "Allah is Really One God" theology which became Islam.
According to Hadith which is narrated by Shia and Sufis, Muhammad told about Ali: "I'm the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate..."
Muslims regard Ali as a major authority on Islam. Ali himself gives this testimony:
Not a single verse of the Qur'an descended upon (was revealed to) the Messenger of Allah which he did not proceed to dictate to me and make me recite. I would write it with my own hand, and he would instruct me as to its tafsir (the literal explanation) and the ta'wil (the spiritual exegesis), the nasikh (the verse which abrogates) and the mansukh (the abrogated verse), the muhkam and the mutashabih (the fixed and the ambiguous), the particular and the general...
According to Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Ali is credited with having established Islamic theology and his quotations contain the first proofs among Muslims of the concept of the Unity of Allah. That is, Ali is the one who combined the 99 gods of Muhammad's pantheon into the "Allah is Really One God" theology which became Islam.
written by duh_swami , February 18, 2012
'I heard the Prophet say', cannot be verified...We cannot affirm that the hearer heard it correctly, if he heard it at all...And who did he tell it to? And why did he tell it? Did the first transmitter ask him? ...
And it came to pass on the way to the Kaaba, that Abu, met the first transmitter....'Say Abu, did you ever hear the Prophet say anything? 'Why do you want to know,' asked Abu...'I'm going to transmit it to another transmitter in the future'...'Your going to what'? asked a startled Abu...Your name and memory will be recorded forever in a book I'm writing, I will call hadith'...'Well'. said Abu,
'I do remember a few things he said', 'How much are you paying per quote'?
'That depends on the quote., usually for regular quotes like, 'bring me my dinner wench'. I pay $1.00 American for a dozen...If it's important like , 'all the Jews must die', or 'bring me Aisha', I pay by the single quote anywhere from $2.00 American to $3.50...
And so it was done...Abu made $12.00 American on that day, and the transmitter got something to transmit he called hadith......Allah thinks of everything, amazing...
And it came to pass on the way to the Kaaba, that Abu, met the first transmitter....'Say Abu, did you ever hear the Prophet say anything? 'Why do you want to know,' asked Abu...'I'm going to transmit it to another transmitter in the future'...'Your going to what'? asked a startled Abu...Your name and memory will be recorded forever in a book I'm writing, I will call hadith'...'Well'. said Abu,
'I do remember a few things he said', 'How much are you paying per quote'?
'That depends on the quote., usually for regular quotes like, 'bring me my dinner wench'. I pay $1.00 American for a dozen...If it's important like , 'all the Jews must die', or 'bring me Aisha', I pay by the single quote anywhere from $2.00 American to $3.50...
And so it was done...Abu made $12.00 American on that day, and the transmitter got something to transmit he called hadith......Allah thinks of everything, amazing...
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
rzq wrote: "Quran has many styles, meaning still the same!"
Wait. How do you know the versions had the same meaning?
Wait. How do you know the versions had the same meaning?
written by rzq , February 18, 2012
I gave you an example that even you should have understood!!!
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
You wrote: "I gave you an example that even you should have understood!!!"
You gave an example of how two statements with different words *could* have the same same.
I'm asking how you *know* the Quranic versions have the same meaning.
These are not the same.
So how do you *know* the versions had the same meaning?
You gave an example of how two statements with different words *could* have the same same.
I'm asking how you *know* the Quranic versions have the same meaning.
These are not the same.
So how do you *know* the versions had the same meaning?
written by rzq , February 18, 2012
The prophet muhammed(pbuh) was tasked with memorising the Quran.
He would be tested regularly by the angel Gabriel.
The sahabi would remember the Quran and be tested by the prophet himself.
Since those days the chain of hafizoon is unbroken until today.
That is why I can say with certainty that remains unchanged from now until the end of time itself. There will be a Muslim hafiz somewhere who will bear whitness to its authenticity.
Is there any other book or literature that can say this??? No indeed!
He would be tested regularly by the angel Gabriel.
The sahabi would remember the Quran and be tested by the prophet himself.
Since those days the chain of hafizoon is unbroken until today.
That is why I can say with certainty that remains unchanged from now until the end of time itself. There will be a Muslim hafiz somewhere who will bear whitness to its authenticity.
Is there any other book or literature that can say this??? No indeed!
written by Muslim & Proud , February 18, 2012
I am here early. Better than being late I suppose.
So let's get down to business and start with my first post on here. Nothing changes in terms of my reutation to Mirza. Oh and btw, when I said earlier "i'll refute you" - I meant the 'Royal' you - i.e. The author, The editor and anyone else at IW, with regards to this article.
So here goes:
Point 1 - 3, Book 41, Number 601
The author has deliberately quoted only part of the Hadith. This is common amongst Islamophobes.
I have provided the full text and this can be verified at your leisure.
Please not: The Author says "7 VERSIONS", whereas the Hadith says "7 WAYS", further confirming the fact that it is recitation that is being referred to. The Hadith also confirms that both people mentioned in the Hadith are RECITING Surah Al-Furqan.
So before we move on, i'd like your response on this please.......one point at a time, so we don't lose track.
In summary (re this first Hadith), the author has only provided part of the evidence and used this to try and justify his Islamaphobia.
Over to you.
So let's get down to business and start with my first post on here. Nothing changes in terms of my reutation to Mirza. Oh and btw, when I said earlier "i'll refute you" - I meant the 'Royal' you - i.e. The author, The editor and anyone else at IW, with regards to this article.
So here goes:
Point 1 - 3, Book 41, Number 601
The author has deliberately quoted only part of the Hadith. This is common amongst Islamophobes.
I have provided the full text and this can be verified at your leisure.
Please not: The Author says "7 VERSIONS", whereas the Hadith says "7 WAYS", further confirming the fact that it is recitation that is being referred to. The Hadith also confirms that both people mentioned in the Hadith are RECITING Surah Al-Furqan.
So before we move on, i'd like your response on this please.......one point at a time, so we don't lose track.
In summary (re this first Hadith), the author has only provided part of the evidence and used this to try and justify his Islamaphobia.
Over to you.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
rzq wrote: "The prophet muhammed(pbuh) was tasked with memorising the Quran. He would be tested regularly by the angel Gabriel. The sahabi would remember the Quran and be tested by the prophet himself. Since those days the chain of hafizoon is unbroken until today. That is why I can say with certainty that remains unchanged from now until the end of time itself. There will be a Muslim hafiz somewhere who will bear whitness to its authenticity."
Wait. Here you are saying that the memorization of the Quran was verbatim from the first recitation to recitations of today. But earlier you wrote something that contradicts this.
rzq wrote previously: "Quran has many styles, meaning still the same! 'the man went up the hill' 'up the hill the man went' 2 sentences written. Same meaning!"
So how do your two statements reconcile with each other?
How can recitations be memorized verbatim and then still have many styles?
Wait. Here you are saying that the memorization of the Quran was verbatim from the first recitation to recitations of today. But earlier you wrote something that contradicts this.
rzq wrote previously: "Quran has many styles, meaning still the same! 'the man went up the hill' 'up the hill the man went' 2 sentences written. Same meaning!"
So how do your two statements reconcile with each other?
How can recitations be memorized verbatim and then still have many styles?
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
You wrote: "Point 1 - 3, Book 41, Number 601 The author has deliberately quoted only part of the Hadith. This is common amongst Islamophobes. I have provided the full text and this can be verified at your leisure. Please not: The Author says "7 VERSIONS", whereas the Hadith says "7 WAYS", further confirming the fact that it is recitation that is being referred to. The Hadith also confirms that both people mentioned in the Hadith are RECITING Surah Al-Furqan. So before we move on, i'd like your response on this please.......one point at a time, so we don't lose track.
You already said that. I did not read the article nor did I attempt to crticise the details of your argument. My criticism of your argument is that you didn't address Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 6:509.
If you don't address Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 6:509 in your argument, then you're argument does not to refute the article.
Please provide your complete argument so that I can begin examining it.
You already said that. I did not read the article nor did I attempt to crticise the details of your argument. My criticism of your argument is that you didn't address Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 6:509.
If you don't address Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 6:509 in your argument, then you're argument does not to refute the article.
Please provide your complete argument so that I can begin examining it.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 18, 2012
"You already said that. I did not read the article nor did I attempt to crticise the details of your argument. My criticism of your argument is that you didn't address Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 6:509."
My argument for 6:509 is no different to the first Hadith.
With regards to my argument, I have already stated it - are you having problems understanding it?
One point at a time remember.......here it is again
Point 1 - 3, Book 41, Number 601
The author has deliberately quoted only part of the Hadith. This is common amongst Islamophobes.
I have provided the full text and this can be verified at your leisure.
Please not: The Author says "7 VERSIONS", whereas the Hadith says "7 WAYS", further confirming the fact that it is recitation that is being referred to. The Hadith also confirms that both people mentioned in the Hadith are RECITING Surah Al-Furqan.
So before we move on, i'd like your response on this please.......one point at a time, so we don't lose track.
My argument for 6:509 is no different to the first Hadith.
With regards to my argument, I have already stated it - are you having problems understanding it?
One point at a time remember.......here it is again
Point 1 - 3, Book 41, Number 601
The author has deliberately quoted only part of the Hadith. This is common amongst Islamophobes.
I have provided the full text and this can be verified at your leisure.
Please not: The Author says "7 VERSIONS", whereas the Hadith says "7 WAYS", further confirming the fact that it is recitation that is being referred to. The Hadith also confirms that both people mentioned in the Hadith are RECITING Surah Al-Furqan.
So before we move on, i'd like your response on this please.......one point at a time, so we don't lose track.
written by No More Confused , February 18, 2012
M & P & rzq
What about my above proposal of testing "quran ever changed"
Also Plz inform me which Hafizoon sahaba were present when hajjaj bin yousaf was applying dots and punctuation to quran
What about my above proposal of testing "quran ever changed"
Also Plz inform me which Hafizoon sahaba were present when hajjaj bin yousaf was applying dots and punctuation to quran
written by Tanstaafl jw , February 18, 2012
Why did we get the bad one?
written by Fineliving56's son , February 18, 2012
Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations.
If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?
If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?
written by vbv , February 18, 2012
Quran itself is a very big lie. It is supposed to be dictated by the socalled Allah to his cronie 'angel' Gabriel who inturn dictates it to Muhamad ,who is illiterate and a moron. Now how did this Quran came to be written , that after the death of Muhamad ? There is no mystery there. It is just a concoction of the rabid followers of this charlatan who would keep the irongrip on the befuddled people in Arabia with terror . After all what did this Allah dictate ? He mouthed the barbaric practices in Arabia in the 7th century AD and rehashed Biblical myths by distorting them, and gave approval to the plundering, raping, genocides and slave running of Muhamad and his evil brigands ( called 'sahabas' or whatever). The world view of Quran is restricted to Arabia and its vicinity , bolstered by the jewish and christian myths to get some kind of legitamacy of being a 'religion'. It is very insular and parochial. The Allah of Quran was oblivious , ignorant of great civilisations of the East like India,China,Korea, Japan, or the west like the Romans, Greeks, the Mayans, the great civilisations in the South Americas, or elsewhere. Why? Because Allah ,the pagan arabian 'god' made into a monotheistic monster in the mould of Yahweh/Jehova was after all a tribal deity of the clan to which Muhamad belonged to. Muhamad made sure to destroy all other pagan 'gods' in Arabia ,excvept his to establish his tribal supremacy. That is why that black stone is stilled preserved in the Kaaba in the Mecca mosque to which all muslims around the world are obligated to abjectly bow and kneel and scrape their noses in submission to the supremacy of this arab deity of pagan origin to maniacal monotheistic monster. Islam is based on Lies, obfuscations and bigotry. It is just an arab cult with an extremely narrow perspective , barbaric , not fit for human civilisation and cannot keep with changing times as it is mired in the bloody ways of the arabs in the life of Muhamad , that is during his socalled delusionery visions and massacres, plunders , slave-runnings ,child-molesting heydays that is unable to come out of its evil and vicious ways which is exemplified by the happenings in the socalled islamic countrieslike Saudi Arabia, IOraq,Iran,Afghanistan, Syria,Egypt,Libya,etc . All of which are mired in bloodshed and turmoil and mutual distrust ,which is the islamic version of "peace" or Darul islam.
written by then lie , February 19, 2012
41. Lo! We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture for mankind with truth. Then whosoever goeth right
it is for his soul, and whosoever strayeth, strayeth only to its hurt. And thou art not a warder over them.
it is for his soul, and whosoever strayeth, strayeth only to its hurt. And thou art not a warder over them.
written by then lie , February 19, 2012
15:41. Allah berfirman: "Ini adalah jalan yang lurus; kewajiban Aku-lah (menjaganya).
41. We verily have displayed (Our warnings) in this Qur’an that they may take heed, but it increaseth them in naught
15:42. Sesungguhnya hamba-hamba-Ku tidak ada kekuasaan bagimu terhadap mereka, kecuali orang-orang yang mengikut kamu, yaitu orang-orang yang sesat.
save aversion.42. Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): If there were other gods along with Him, as they say, then had they sought
a way against the Lord of the Throne.
written by then lie , February 19, 2012
we want to know what is your God?money?stone?whAt is your holy book. and your Prophet.?
written by Muslim & Proud , February 19, 2012
"Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations."
You are still not getting the point. The author of the article says "7 versions". The Hadith says "7 ways".
That is why we cannot move on ANY further, until this point is clarified.
Here is why.
Look at the 2 statements below:
1 - 7 versions are 7 different ways of pronunciation
2 - ONE Version, with 7 ways of pronunciation
The evidence provided by the author, to justify his Islamophobic claim, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY prove that 7 versions of the Holy Qur'an were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
This is why it is important to deal with one point at a time and for this reason, I will have to dismiss your question (which was "If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?").
Over to you.
You either need to prove that 7 VERSIONS were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), or the debate is over. This is absolutely critical as the title of the article is "SEVEN Qurans revealed to Muhammad. The article also states : Do all muslims know this fact.......so according to the Author, it is a fact that 7 Qurans were revealed. Until this point is not clarified, the rest of the debate is a waste of your time and mine. I hope you understand this.
Over to you.
You are still not getting the point. The author of the article says "7 versions". The Hadith says "7 ways".
That is why we cannot move on ANY further, until this point is clarified.
Here is why.
Look at the 2 statements below:
1 - 7 versions are 7 different ways of pronunciation
2 - ONE Version, with 7 ways of pronunciation
The evidence provided by the author, to justify his Islamophobic claim, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY prove that 7 versions of the Holy Qur'an were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
This is why it is important to deal with one point at a time and for this reason, I will have to dismiss your question (which was "If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?").
Over to you.
You either need to prove that 7 VERSIONS were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), or the debate is over. This is absolutely critical as the title of the article is "SEVEN Qurans revealed to Muhammad. The article also states : Do all muslims know this fact.......so according to the Author, it is a fact that 7 Qurans were revealed. Until this point is not clarified, the rest of the debate is a waste of your time and mine. I hope you understand this.
Over to you.
written by No More Confused , February 19, 2012
M & PEEE You said above
"Please not: The Author says "7 VERSIONS", whereas the Hadith says "7 WAYS", further confirming the fact that it is recitation that is being referred to. The Hadith also confirms that both people mentioned in the Hadith are RECITING Surah Al-Furqan."
Finelivingson replied and asked you
"Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations.
If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?
Plz reply to his question rather than playing ping pong.
For the seven versions you should argue with the auther
Also you and rzq are avoiding my questions???
Dont waste your and others time if u r not for logical arguments and just want to do comedy here proving urself
to be islamic jokers.
"Please not: The Author says "7 VERSIONS", whereas the Hadith says "7 WAYS", further confirming the fact that it is recitation that is being referred to. The Hadith also confirms that both people mentioned in the Hadith are RECITING Surah Al-Furqan."
Finelivingson replied and asked you
"Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations.
If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?
Plz reply to his question rather than playing ping pong.
For the seven versions you should argue with the auther
Also you and rzq are avoiding my questions???
Dont waste your and others time if u r not for logical arguments and just want to do comedy here proving urself
to be islamic jokers.
written by No More Confused , February 19, 2012
M & PEEE
When you recite quran in different ways it changes the meanings as well. Go ask arabs who own arabic language
( and whom allah trusted to send quran) rather than following quran twister mr zakir naik (a non arab) whose
mother tongue is not arabic.
When you recite quran in different ways it changes the meanings as well. Go ask arabs who own arabic language
( and whom allah trusted to send quran) rather than following quran twister mr zakir naik (a non arab) whose
mother tongue is not arabic.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 19, 2012
"I say a lot of things in life without wanting them to be written into books. But after my death, some of my associates may compile what I said and make a book. That's not me writing a book, although I am technically the author of the book."
Ah, so mirza 'should' have said, TECHNICALLY.......thanks for correcting him.
"Islam is known to make some people zombies to the extent of turning them suicidal, and you are no different, but in a different sense."
So tell me Mr Khan, why has the article been revised since my first post? Please see my first post where I quoted mirza when he was talking about the categorisation of muslims.........you accuse me of platingword games and you are a cheater yourself as you have changed the content of the article.........
So I am no different to a zombie who is suicidal, but IN A DIFFERENT SENSE......
Now that makes a LOT OF SENSE........not
Ah, so mirza 'should' have said, TECHNICALLY.......thanks for correcting him.
"Islam is known to make some people zombies to the extent of turning them suicidal, and you are no different, but in a different sense."
So tell me Mr Khan, why has the article been revised since my first post? Please see my first post where I quoted mirza when he was talking about the categorisation of muslims.........you accuse me of platingword games and you are a cheater yourself as you have changed the content of the article.........
So I am no different to a zombie who is suicidal, but IN A DIFFERENT SENSE......
Now that makes a LOT OF SENSE........not
written by No More Confused , February 19, 2012
The whole point is "Do humans need quran to be civilized or to be successful" i believe NO and you will agree with
me..there have been successful humans and societies and civilizations there are and there will be without even
knowing quran.
this is just an ego problem of muslims because they have quran and they lack everything else.
Islam is nothing more than a war between allah and iblees who is winning from the day one
if allah cannot defeat iblees why he is using humans as a pawn
Just answer me why allah agreed to Iblees to spread sin among humans rather than punishing him at the first
place when Iblees disobeyed and insulted allah in front of all creatures.
Allah boasted and claimed Iblees cannot influence his momin people but Iblees proved him wrong by
influencing Adam to do sin.
Now allah was defeated and still he couldnt do anything about Iblees rather he punished Adam for following shaitan.
written by No More Confused , February 19, 2012
The whole point is allahs miraculous book quran could not convert more than 25% humans into muslims even
after 1400 years.
Even muslims avoid reading quran and it is just a show piece in muslim houses.
non arabs do not understand what they are reading and they do not want to read in their own language
allahs miraculous and preferred language arabic could not pass outside gulf and some part of africa.
whole world including arabia is learning and talking in english today.
zakir naik will fabricate whole scientific inventions (already invented) by twisting quran but he cannot prove
or predict a single invention or theory to happen in the future.
written by then lie , February 19, 2012
Genesis 25
7) Abraham mencapai umur seratus tujuh puluh lima tahun, .
(7) The days of Abraham's life were 175 years.
(8) lalu ia meninggal. Ia mati pada waktu telah putih rambutnya, tua dan suntuk umur, maka ia dikumpulkan kepada kaum leluhurnya.
(8) Then Abraham's spirit was released, and he died at a good (ample, full) old age, an old man, satisfied and satiated, and was gathered to his people.
(9) Dan anak-anaknya, Ishak dan Ismael, menguburkan dia dalam gua Makhpela, di padang Efron bin Zohar, orang Het itu, padang yang letaknya di sebelah timur Mamre, (9) Ia dikuburkan oleh anak-anaknya, yaitu Ishak dan Ismael, di Gua Makhpela yang terletak di ladang sebelah timur Mamre. Dahulu ladang itu milik Efron anak Zohar, orang Het, (9) And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is east of Mamre,
(13) Ismael mempunyai dua belas anak yang disebutkan di sini menurut urutan lahirnya: Nebayot, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Misyma, Duma, Masa, Hadad, Tema, Yetur, Nafis dan Kedma. Anak-anak itu menjadi bapak leluhur dua belas suku bangsa, dan desa dan perkemahan mereka disebut menurut nama-nama mereka.
13) These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, named in the order of their births: Nebaioth, the firstborn of Ishmael, and Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam,
(14) Mishma, Dumah, Massa,
(15) Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.
they live in paran mountain(arabia)
7) Abraham mencapai umur seratus tujuh puluh lima tahun, .
(7) The days of Abraham's life were 175 years.
(8) lalu ia meninggal. Ia mati pada waktu telah putih rambutnya, tua dan suntuk umur, maka ia dikumpulkan kepada kaum leluhurnya.
(8) Then Abraham's spirit was released, and he died at a good (ample, full) old age, an old man, satisfied and satiated, and was gathered to his people.
(9) Dan anak-anaknya, Ishak dan Ismael, menguburkan dia dalam gua Makhpela, di padang Efron bin Zohar, orang Het itu, padang yang letaknya di sebelah timur Mamre, (9) Ia dikuburkan oleh anak-anaknya, yaitu Ishak dan Ismael, di Gua Makhpela yang terletak di ladang sebelah timur Mamre. Dahulu ladang itu milik Efron anak Zohar, orang Het, (9) And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is east of Mamre,
(13) Ismael mempunyai dua belas anak yang disebutkan di sini menurut urutan lahirnya: Nebayot, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Misyma, Duma, Masa, Hadad, Tema, Yetur, Nafis dan Kedma. Anak-anak itu menjadi bapak leluhur dua belas suku bangsa, dan desa dan perkemahan mereka disebut menurut nama-nama mereka.
13) These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, named in the order of their births: Nebaioth, the firstborn of Ishmael, and Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam,
(14) Mishma, Dumah, Massa,
(15) Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.
they live in paran mountain(arabia)
written by then lie , February 19, 2012
he holy Quran say isa (prophet) son of mary is only messeger of Allah and before him some prophet like moses, noah, jonah etc.he is only man, eat,drink,sleep. tired.after him Allah send Muhammad as the last messenger.arab an israil are family
arab from ismaeel and israel from ishak they son abraham(ibrahim)
2:87. Dan sesungguhnya Kami telah mendatangkan Al Kitab (Taurat) kepada Musa, dan Kami telah menyusulinya (berturut-turut) sesudah itu dengan rasul-rasul, dan telah Kami berikan bukti-bukti kebenaran (mukjizat) kepada `Isa putra Maryam dan Kami memperkuatnya dengan Ruhul-Qudus. Apakah setiap datang kepadamu seorang rasul membawa sesuatu (pelajaran) yang tidak sesuai dengan keinginanmu lalu kamu angkuh; maka beberapa orang (di antara mereka) kamu dustakan dan beberapa orang (yang lain) kamu bunuh?
87. And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We
gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the holy Spirit is it ever
so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow
arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
88. And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they
believ
arab from ismaeel and israel from ishak they son abraham(ibrahim)
2:87. Dan sesungguhnya Kami telah mendatangkan Al Kitab (Taurat) kepada Musa, dan Kami telah menyusulinya (berturut-turut) sesudah itu dengan rasul-rasul, dan telah Kami berikan bukti-bukti kebenaran (mukjizat) kepada `Isa putra Maryam dan Kami memperkuatnya dengan Ruhul-Qudus. Apakah setiap datang kepadamu seorang rasul membawa sesuatu (pelajaran) yang tidak sesuai dengan keinginanmu lalu kamu angkuh; maka beberapa orang (di antara mereka) kamu dustakan dan beberapa orang (yang lain) kamu bunuh?
87. And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We
gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the holy Spirit is it ever
so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow
arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
88. And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they
believ
written by Fineliving56's son , February 19, 2012
M&P wrote: "cheater yourself as you have changed the content of the article........."
Humans are fallible. That means we commonly make mistakes.
A rational person knows this and applies error correction methods to all parts of his life.
Error correction is good.
The problem with anti-rational memes is that they prevent error correction.
Humans are fallible. That means we commonly make mistakes.
A rational person knows this and applies error correction methods to all parts of his life.
Error correction is good.
The problem with anti-rational memes is that they prevent error correction.
written by duh_swami , February 19, 2012
Your spamming pornography...No one is going to read all your spam, not even Muslims...
Muslims may have a high interest in porno, but not the kind you are spamming, besides they already know all about it...They are experts on Islamic porn...they study Quran and hadith...
Muslims may have a high interest in porno, but not the kind you are spamming, besides they already know all about it...They are experts on Islamic porn...they study Quran and hadith...
written by No More Confused , February 19, 2012
then lie
humanity is looking towards cosmic age and "then lie" is telling us stories of noah moses. i bet his brain should be
placed next to dinosaurs skeleton in the museum.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 19, 2012
"Humans are fallible. That means we commonly make mistakes."
A mitake is one thing........it's another to be deviant.
There are many mistakes in the article in that case......
I notice you have nothing much more to say on the points I raised.
A mitake is one thing........it's another to be deviant.
There are many mistakes in the article in that case......
I notice you have nothing much more to say on the points I raised.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 19, 2012
M&P wrote: "I notice you have nothing much more to say on the points I raised."
What do you mean? I was the last one to speak. You must have not noticed my post. I'll repost here:
Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations.
If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?
What do you mean? I was the last one to speak. You must have not noticed my post. I'll repost here:
Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations.
If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?
written by Muslim & Proud , February 19, 2012
And here was my response:
"Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations."
You are still not getting the point. The author of the article says "7 versions". The Hadith says "7 ways".
That is why we cannot move on ANY further, until this point is clarified.
Here is why.
Look at the 2 statements below:
1 - 7 versions are 7 different ways of pronunciation
2 - ONE Version, with 7 ways of pronunciation
The evidence provided by the author, to justify his Islamophobic claim, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY prove that 7 versions of the Holy Qur'an were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
This is why it is important to deal with one point at a time and for this reason, I will have to dismiss your question (which was "If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?").
You either need to prove that 7 VERSIONS were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), or the debate is over. This is absolutely critical as the title of the article is "SEVEN Qurans revealed to Muhammad. The article also states : Do all muslims know this fact.......so according to the Author, it is a fact that 7 Qurans were revealed. Until this point is not clarified, the rest of the debate is a waste of your time and mine. I hope you understand this.
Over to you.
"Oh I see your point now. That the 7 versions are just different ways of pronunciations."
You are still not getting the point. The author of the article says "7 versions". The Hadith says "7 ways".
That is why we cannot move on ANY further, until this point is clarified.
Here is why.
Look at the 2 statements below:
1 - 7 versions are 7 different ways of pronunciation
2 - ONE Version, with 7 ways of pronunciation
The evidence provided by the author, to justify his Islamophobic claim, DOES NOT IN ANY WAY prove that 7 versions of the Holy Qur'an were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
This is why it is important to deal with one point at a time and for this reason, I will have to dismiss your question (which was "If that is true, then why was it important for 6 of them to be destroyed?").
You either need to prove that 7 VERSIONS were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), or the debate is over. This is absolutely critical as the title of the article is "SEVEN Qurans revealed to Muhammad. The article also states : Do all muslims know this fact.......so according to the Author, it is a fact that 7 Qurans were revealed. Until this point is not clarified, the rest of the debate is a waste of your time and mine. I hope you understand this.
Over to you.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 19, 2012
M&P wrote: "A mistake is one thing........it's another to be deviant."
A deviant is one who departs from the norm.
So then I am a deviant. Einstein was a deviant. Prophet Mohamed was a deviant.
So why is being a deviant necessarily a bad thing?
A deviant is one who departs from the norm.
So then I am a deviant. Einstein was a deviant. Prophet Mohamed was a deviant.
So why is being a deviant necessarily a bad thing?
written by Yibel , February 19, 2012
"Gen 25:15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.
they live in paran mountain(ARABIA) "
The Paran Mountain mentioned in Genesis 25 is located in southern Israel, in the Seir region, not in Arabia. This land was called Edom, after Esau, the son of Isaac and brother of Israel/Jacob, who also lived in this region. Esau took wives from the daughters of Canaan and one of them, Adah, bore Eliphaz by his concubine Timna, (the sister of Lotan, a Horite) bore Amalek. Amalek's descendants, the Amalekites, became a nation of slavers, murders, and caravan robbers.
This area was also known as the wilderness of Sin - a moon god of the Assyrians, because of the moon worshipping cults of the descedants of Esau and Ishmael. Along with Sin, Hubal, Dushara, and Hadad (a storm god of the Syrians) were just a few of the local gods. The three daughters of Sin/Nanna, the three cranes (Allat, Manat, Uzza) were also worshipped in this region.
Muhammad mentioned these three goddesses in his Qur'an in the Satanic Verses (Surah 53, The Star, Sirius) which he later removed.
It's narrated that once there was an ayat where three former Makkan goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-'Uzza and Manat, were mentioned as intermediaries. In surah 53, verses:
19 Have you though of Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza,
20 and Manat, the third of the?
21 These are intermediaries exalted whose intercession is to be hoped for.
22 Such as they do not forget
But these supposed ayats are not in the present Qur'an, where this text now is found:
21 Is it the male for you, and female for him?
22 That would have been a crooked division!
they live in paran mountain(ARABIA) "
The Paran Mountain mentioned in Genesis 25 is located in southern Israel, in the Seir region, not in Arabia. This land was called Edom, after Esau, the son of Isaac and brother of Israel/Jacob, who also lived in this region. Esau took wives from the daughters of Canaan and one of them, Adah, bore Eliphaz by his concubine Timna, (the sister of Lotan, a Horite) bore Amalek. Amalek's descendants, the Amalekites, became a nation of slavers, murders, and caravan robbers.
This area was also known as the wilderness of Sin - a moon god of the Assyrians, because of the moon worshipping cults of the descedants of Esau and Ishmael. Along with Sin, Hubal, Dushara, and Hadad (a storm god of the Syrians) were just a few of the local gods. The three daughters of Sin/Nanna, the three cranes (Allat, Manat, Uzza) were also worshipped in this region.
Muhammad mentioned these three goddesses in his Qur'an in the Satanic Verses (Surah 53, The Star, Sirius) which he later removed.
It's narrated that once there was an ayat where three former Makkan goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-'Uzza and Manat, were mentioned as intermediaries. In surah 53, verses:
19 Have you though of Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza,
20 and Manat, the third of the?
21 These are intermediaries exalted whose intercession is to be hoped for.
22 Such as they do not forget
But these supposed ayats are not in the present Qur'an, where this text now is found:
21 Is it the male for you, and female for him?
22 That would have been a crooked division!
written by Fineliving56's son , February 19, 2012
Lets assume you're point is correct; that the 7 versions are only different in pronunciation.
Why was it necessary to destroy 6 of them?
Why was it necessary to destroy 6 of them?
written by Muslim and proud , February 20, 2012
"So why is being a deviant necessarily a bad thing?"
I meant devious (characterized by insincerity or deceit; evasive).
I meant devious (characterized by insincerity or deceit; evasive).
written by Muslim & Proud , February 20, 2012
"Lets assume you're point is correct; that the 7 versions are only different in pronunciation.
Why was it necessary to destroy 6 of them?"
To prevent exactly what the author of this article is claiming.
Why was it necessary to destroy 6 of them?"
To prevent exactly what the author of this article is claiming.
written by vbv , February 20, 2012
"who is your gosd" ? You ask. I have no need for any "god" whatsoever. I just want to live a free and happy and peaceful life without the clutter of any religion , more so the megalomaniacal monotheistic cults coming from west Asia with its intolerance and extreme bigotry.
written by rzq , February 20, 2012
Let me make it as clear as possible for you!
1 Quran
7 different ways of reading it. Quirat.
Any reciter of the Quran (quari) will know the different ways of reading it!
SAME meaning!
One codex was chosen because people in the early days were starting to arguing that their recitation was the best! Stop them from falling into sin!
Is this clear enough?
1 Quran
7 different ways of reading it. Quirat.
Any reciter of the Quran (quari) will know the different ways of reading it!
SAME meaning!
One codex was chosen because people in the early days were starting to arguing that their recitation was the best! Stop them from falling into sin!
Is this clear enough?
written by duh_swami , February 20, 2012
Death is better, if they keep sinning kill them, it is the Islamic way...
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
rzq wrote: "Let me make it as clear as possible for you! 1 Quran 7 different ways of reading it. Quirat. Any reciter of the Quran (quari) will know the different ways of reading it! SAME meaning! One codex was chosen because people in the early days were starting to arguing that their recitation was the best! Stop them from falling into sin!"
So the different codex versions caused muslims to fall into sin.
Let your explanation = X.
And Y = your idea that the Quran is complete and never changed since its creation.
Do you realize that X and Y contradict each other?
If yes, then do you deny X or Y?
If no, then how do you reconcile X with Y?
So the different codex versions caused muslims to fall into sin.
Let your explanation = X.
And Y = your idea that the Quran is complete and never changed since its creation.
Do you realize that X and Y contradict each other?
If yes, then do you deny X or Y?
If no, then how do you reconcile X with Y?
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
I wrote: "Lets assume you're point is correct; that the 7 versions are only different in pronunciation. Why was it necessary to destroy 6 of them?"
M&P wrote: "To prevent exactly what the author of this article is claiming."
Please don't make me go digging. The article says a lot of claims. Please tell me which claim you're referencing.
Thanks
M&P wrote: "To prevent exactly what the author of this article is claiming."
Please don't make me go digging. The article says a lot of claims. Please tell me which claim you're referencing.
Thanks
written by Muslim and proud , February 20, 2012
"Please don't make me go digging. The article says a lot of claims."
So you want me to do the hard work for you?
Please check the title of the article for starters.
Ps. Thank you for confirming that the article makes a lot of 'claims'.
So you want me to do the hard work for you?
Please check the title of the article for starters.
Ps. Thank you for confirming that the article makes a lot of 'claims'.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
I wrote: "Please don't make me go digging. The article says a lot of claims."
M&P wrote: "So you want me to do the hard work for you? Please check the title of the article for starters. Ps. Thank you for confirming that the article makes a lot of 'claims'."
So you think its my job to present your argument? No. Its your job to present your argument.
You think claims are bad? Every argument is a claim. Every truth is a claim. Why is this a problem for you?
M&P wrote: "So you want me to do the hard work for you? Please check the title of the article for starters. Ps. Thank you for confirming that the article makes a lot of 'claims'."
So you think its my job to present your argument? No. Its your job to present your argument.
You think claims are bad? Every argument is a claim. Every truth is a claim. Why is this a problem for you?
written by Muslim and proud , February 20, 2012
Every truth is a 'fact' son.
Read the title of this article and you will understand that the author has said '7 Qur'ans' were revealed.
If there was a question mark at the end of the title, it would be a different matter.
Read the title of this article and you will understand that the author has said '7 Qur'ans' were revealed.
If there was a question mark at the end of the title, it would be a different matter.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
M&P wrote: "Every truth is a 'fact' son."
And every fact starts as a claim. What is the problem?
And every fact starts as a claim. What is the problem?
written by Muslim and proud , February 20, 2012
Thank you for the clarity - every truth is not a claim, however it is more than likely to start as a claim.
So the title is a claim and not a fact.
Lets move on
Now go to the next title, which says:
7 QURANS IN 23 YEARS, ALL IN ARABIC
The author then provides his explanation and ends by saying:
"Did you know this FACT?"
Please explain how the claim became a fact?
The claim: 7 Qur'ans (as opposed to one Qur'an in 7 ways)
Over to you
So the title is a claim and not a fact.
Lets move on
Now go to the next title, which says:
7 QURANS IN 23 YEARS, ALL IN ARABIC
The author then provides his explanation and ends by saying:
"Did you know this FACT?"
Please explain how the claim became a fact?
The claim: 7 Qur'ans (as opposed to one Qur'an in 7 ways)
Over to you
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
M&P wrote: "Thank you for the clarity - every truth is not a claim, however it is more than likely to start as a claim. So the title is a claim and not a fact. Now go to the next title, which says: 7 QURANS IN 23 YEARS, ALL IN ARABIC. The author then provides his explanation and ends by saying: "Did you know this FACT?"
Please explain how the claim became a fact? The claim: 7 Qur'ans (as opposed to one Qur'an in 7 ways)
A claim is deemed false when criticism of it is presented. And that criticism is then criticized. And this goes back and forth until there are no more criticisms left.
At this point, you have criticized the claim and I criticized your criticism. And then you told me to reread the article. But at this point, you are to criticize my criticism.
We are left with this. Assuming your idea is correct [that the 7 versions are just differences is pronunciation], then why was it necessary to destroy 6 of them?
rzq answered this question by saying that "One codex was chosen because people in the early days were starting to arguing that their recitation was the best! Stop them from falling into sin!"
So I criticized his criticism by saying:
So the different codex versions caused muslims to fall into sin.
Let your explanation = X.
And Y = your idea that the Quran is complete and never changed since its creation.
Do you realize that X and Y contradict each other?
If yes, then do you deny X or Y?
If no, then how do you reconcile X with Y?
Please explain how the claim became a fact? The claim: 7 Qur'ans (as opposed to one Qur'an in 7 ways)
A claim is deemed false when criticism of it is presented. And that criticism is then criticized. And this goes back and forth until there are no more criticisms left.
At this point, you have criticized the claim and I criticized your criticism. And then you told me to reread the article. But at this point, you are to criticize my criticism.
We are left with this. Assuming your idea is correct [that the 7 versions are just differences is pronunciation], then why was it necessary to destroy 6 of them?
rzq answered this question by saying that "One codex was chosen because people in the early days were starting to arguing that their recitation was the best! Stop them from falling into sin!"
So I criticized his criticism by saying:
So the different codex versions caused muslims to fall into sin.
Let your explanation = X.
And Y = your idea that the Quran is complete and never changed since its creation.
Do you realize that X and Y contradict each other?
If yes, then do you deny X or Y?
If no, then how do you reconcile X with Y?
written by No More Confused , February 20, 2012
RZQ says
"One codex was chosen because people in the early days were starting to arguing that their recitation was the best! Stop them from falling into sin!"
Finally you accepted that quran was being changed by early muslims. Quran was changing everyday until dots
and punctuations were applied by hajjaj bin yousaf.
As a matter of fact once the dots and punctuations were applied to make quran recitation uniform, muslims
started changing and twisting the meanings to suit individuals or groups or sects.
In this way quran has been changing from the day one till now. Recently zakir naik has over hauled quran
completely by discovering all scientific theories and inventions from quran.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 20, 2012
I think you are going down the wrong road son.
Check my criticism again.
1 - Only part of the Hadith has been provided
2 - The article says VERSIONS the Hadith says WAYS
3 - You still continue to say VERSIONS
The Holy Qur'an was not created so your Y is totally wrong.
Don't forget:
1 - The Holy Qur'an was REVEALED in 7 ways, according to the Hadith that was quoted in the article. 1 VERSION of the Holy Quran.
2 - This article has CLAIMED that there were 7 versions revealed
All the X's and Y's will not take you away from 1 & 2 above.
Check my criticism again.
1 - Only part of the Hadith has been provided
2 - The article says VERSIONS the Hadith says WAYS
3 - You still continue to say VERSIONS
The Holy Qur'an was not created so your Y is totally wrong.
Don't forget:
1 - The Holy Qur'an was REVEALED in 7 ways, according to the Hadith that was quoted in the article. 1 VERSION of the Holy Quran.
2 - This article has CLAIMED that there were 7 versions revealed
All the X's and Y's will not take you away from 1 & 2 above.
written by Machmoed , February 20, 2012
What about the codex of Mas'ud and ibn Oebay Kab. They had slight different qur'ans/masaheef. One of them had to give his mushaf to be destroyed as commanded by khaleef Utham. According to hadith he gave it away with pain in his heart. Also it didn't contain the sura alfatiha (the opening/beginning) because it was used more as prayer by the messenger according to him and not part of the qu'an.
written by Muslim and proud , February 20, 2012
Title of this article says: "Seven Qurans Allah Revealed to Muhammad"
Content of the article says: "Muslims, but to non-Muslims, it will be shocking to know that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad in seven different modes"
Note the contradiction in terms of singular and
Plural use - once again, the author is all over the place. I wonder how long it will be before the article is amended again......
Content of the article says: "Muslims, but to non-Muslims, it will be shocking to know that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad in seven different modes"
Note the contradiction in terms of singular and
Plural use - once again, the author is all over the place. I wonder how long it will be before the article is amended again......
written by rzq , February 20, 2012
You know what gets me is the authors of these articles do not come and defend their writings. Even admin runs away!
Come on mirza, bramachari, das, khan where are you guys?
Come on mirza, bramachari, das, khan where are you guys?
written by Muslim and proud , February 20, 2012
Rzq
Bro, how can anyone defend the indefensible?
Praise be to Allah (the exalted)
Millions of blessings upon the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
Bro, how can anyone defend the indefensible?
Praise be to Allah (the exalted)
Millions of blessings upon the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
written by duh_swami , February 20, 2012
Millions of blessings upon the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
Those are not blessings, they are sea gull droppings...
Those are not blessings, they are sea gull droppings...
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
M&P wrote: I think you are going down the wrong road son. Check my criticism again. 1 - Only part of the Hadith has been provided. 2 - The article says VERSIONS the Hadith says WAYS. 3 - You still continue to say VERSIONS. The Holy Qur'an was not created so your Y is totally wrong. 1 - The Holy Qur'an was REVEALED in 7 ways, according to the Hadith that was quoted in the article. 1 VERSION of the Holy Quran. 2 - This article has CLAIMED that there were 7 versions revealed. All the X's and Y's will not take you away from 1 & 2 above.
You preference for words don't change my logic. So I'll change my X and Y to be consistent with your preference for wording.
Let X = The idea that the 7 different codex *ways* caused muslims to fall into sin. And that this is the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them.
Let Y = Your idea that the Quran is complete and never changed since its *revelation*.
It is clear to me that X and Y can not both be true. I assume you see this. If not, please tell me so I can explain.
So do you deny X or do you deny Y?
You preference for words don't change my logic. So I'll change my X and Y to be consistent with your preference for wording.
Let X = The idea that the 7 different codex *ways* caused muslims to fall into sin. And that this is the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them.
Let Y = Your idea that the Quran is complete and never changed since its *revelation*.
It is clear to me that X and Y can not both be true. I assume you see this. If not, please tell me so I can explain.
So do you deny X or do you deny Y?
written by Muslim & Proud , February 20, 2012
You are obviously obsessed with your X's and Y's...........so obsessed you forgot simple maths.
Both X and Y are absolutely true.
X: 7 minus the six = 1 accurate master copy of the complete Holy Qur'an, which never changed.
Y: The Holy Qur'an is complete and never changed
I hope you have got the spade handy (the one I asked you to keep nearby, a few days ago).
Some free advice: Keep your laces tied. That way, you are less likely to trip yourself up ;-)
Both X and Y are absolutely true.
X: 7 minus the six = 1 accurate master copy of the complete Holy Qur'an, which never changed.
Y: The Holy Qur'an is complete and never changed
I hope you have got the spade handy (the one I asked you to keep nearby, a few days ago).
Some free advice: Keep your laces tied. That way, you are less likely to trip yourself up ;-)
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
M&P wrote: "Both X and Y are absolutely true. X: 7 minus the six = 1 accurate master copy of the complete Holy Qur'an, which never changed."
No you neglected to mention the other part of X. I said let X be "The idea that the 7 different codex *ways* caused muslims to fall into sin. And that this is the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them." So clearly it is X you have a problem with. So lets discuss that one by dividing it up into 2 parts.
Let A be "The idea that the 7 different codex *ways* of the Quran.
Let B be "The idea that the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them was that it caused muslims to fall into sin."
A and B contradict each other. Which do you disagree with?
---
What is the purpose of the insults? Do they help your argument? Have you noticed that I don't insult you? Why don't you do the same with me? Are you trying to *win* this discussion or are you trying to persuade me? Note that in our discussion I intend that we both win, i.e. that we have mutual benefit. Insulting me doesn't help with this. Do you agree?
No you neglected to mention the other part of X. I said let X be "The idea that the 7 different codex *ways* caused muslims to fall into sin. And that this is the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them." So clearly it is X you have a problem with. So lets discuss that one by dividing it up into 2 parts.
Let A be "The idea that the 7 different codex *ways* of the Quran.
Let B be "The idea that the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them was that it caused muslims to fall into sin."
A and B contradict each other. Which do you disagree with?
---
What is the purpose of the insults? Do they help your argument? Have you noticed that I don't insult you? Why don't you do the same with me? Are you trying to *win* this discussion or are you trying to persuade me? Note that in our discussion I intend that we both win, i.e. that we have mutual benefit. Insulting me doesn't help with this. Do you agree?
written by Just passing through , February 20, 2012
M&P claimed that one of the 7 different ways (though you can not burn a way, you can only burn writing so these must have been versions) was most accurate, and obviously believes that the one that survived to this day is most accurate. He believes that the other 6 are less accurate, so he believes what he is arguing against, that there were never 7 different versions of the Quran. He also must believe that a man, who like all men is fallible, was able to make a determination as to which was correct. Considering it was supposed to be a message from god hopefully that man picked correctly as each word is critical and taken very literally. There really is no way of knowing if the correct way was selected is there? Blinding yourself to simple logic is the only way to reconcile the facts.
written by Dwito , February 20, 2012
Millions of blessings upon the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
It's good to wish for somebody, everybody. That we do, especially to youngers. You wish for old dead one. Do you wish for others also?
And if Allah can bless, why didn't he bless Mo at his cursed youth?
It's good to wish for somebody, everybody. That we do, especially to youngers. You wish for old dead one. Do you wish for others also?
And if Allah can bless, why didn't he bless Mo at his cursed youth?
written by Fineliving56's son , February 20, 2012
Thank you for the clarification.
I didn't even think of the very important point you bring up. The *man* that chose the correct version of the 7 versions could have been wrong in his choice. Why? Because all humans are fallible.
I didn't even think of the very important point you bring up. The *man* that chose the correct version of the 7 versions could have been wrong in his choice. Why? Because all humans are fallible.
written by Just passing through again , February 20, 2012
If god sent his final message to earth he would not have let it split into 7 versions. This is because if it truly was final then there would be no prophets coming to correct the mistakes of men. So god made a mistake in letting 7 versions exist ( different pronunciations and grammar are perhaps are smaller mistakes), i.e. god is imperfect, or Mo was not the last prophet as the message changed in the hands of men. According to Islam god is perfect and Mo the last prophet. Both of these can not be true if 7 versions or ways existed.
written by Machmoed , February 21, 2012
I don't care what the article sais Moron. It's hadith some of them authentic wich you believe sais there were different qur'ans as i pointed in my previous post. There were different codexes and Uthman burned/destryed the others and kept the Uthmanic recension. Do yopu deny your own brothers? What could i expect from a moron.
written by Muslim and proud , February 21, 2012
"Thank you for the clarification."
Pleasure
"I didn't even think of the very important point you bring up. The *man* that chose the correct version of the 7 versions could have been wrong in his choice. Why? Because all humans are fallible."
My dear son, choice would only come into it IF there was any doubt about THE CORRECT ONE. That's why there was (and always will be) wisdom in memorising each word by heart - even today there are millions of Muslims who are blessed to have memorised each and every word.
Last but by no means least, it was Islam that introduced the concept of safeguarding a master copy (as per the Hadith quoted by the author) - if subsequent copies run the risk of being corrupted, you always have the master copy to fall back on. This generally referred to as wisdom ;-)
Pleasure
"I didn't even think of the very important point you bring up. The *man* that chose the correct version of the 7 versions could have been wrong in his choice. Why? Because all humans are fallible."
My dear son, choice would only come into it IF there was any doubt about THE CORRECT ONE. That's why there was (and always will be) wisdom in memorising each word by heart - even today there are millions of Muslims who are blessed to have memorised each and every word.
Last but by no means least, it was Islam that introduced the concept of safeguarding a master copy (as per the Hadith quoted by the author) - if subsequent copies run the risk of being corrupted, you always have the master copy to fall back on. This generally referred to as wisdom ;-)
written by Fineliving56's son , February 21, 2012
rzq wrote: "Let me make it as clear as possible for you! 1 Quran 7 different ways of reading it. Quirat. Any reciter of the Quran (quari) will know the different ways of reading it! SAME meaning! One codex was chosen because people in the early days were starting to arguing that their recitation was the best! Stop them from falling into sin!"
Let X be your idea that "the 7 *ways* were turned into one by destroying 6, in order to stop people from falling into sin".
Let Y be "It is a Quran in Arabic without any crookedness therein: in order that they may guard against Evil. (Quran, Sura Al Zumar 39:28)."
X directly contradicts Y so much so that they are exact opposites.
Do you deny X or deny Y?
Let X be your idea that "the 7 *ways* were turned into one by destroying 6, in order to stop people from falling into sin".
Let Y be "It is a Quran in Arabic without any crookedness therein: in order that they may guard against Evil. (Quran, Sura Al Zumar 39:28)."
X directly contradicts Y so much so that they are exact opposites.
Do you deny X or deny Y?
written by Muslim and proud , February 21, 2012
X = 7 minus 6 = MASTER COPY, which had no crookedness therein in order to guard against evil
Y = "It is a Quran in Arabic without any crookedness therein: in order that they may guard against Evil. (Quran, Sura Al Zumar 39:28)."
Z = Do not make up your own summary in order to try and deceive us.
Y = "It is a Quran in Arabic without any crookedness therein: in order that they may guard against Evil. (Quran, Sura Al Zumar 39:28)."
Z = Do not make up your own summary in order to try and deceive us.
written by No More Confused , February 21, 2012
"X = 7 minus 6 = MASTER COPY, which had no crookedness therein in order to guard against evil"
Why it was required to minus 6??
You are deceiving urself M & P
written by Muslim and proud , February 21, 2012
You need to keep up my friend.....
written by Muslim & Proud , February 21, 2012
"Let A be "The idea that the 7 different codex *ways* of the Quran.
Let B be "The idea that the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them was that it caused muslims to fall into sin."
A and B contradict each other. Which do you disagree with?"
So from X's and Y's, we go to A's and B's - these are your summaries and not mine. I have never claimed that B is the one and only reason that 6 had to be destroyed, unless you can prove it.
I have maintained that 6 had to be destroyed to leave the master copy which was never under any doubt.
--
"What is the purpose of the insults? Do they help your argument? Have you noticed that I don't insult you? Why don't you do the same with me?"
No problem - It would be uncivilised to ignore your points here. However, when was the last time you challenged any of the insults directed to me, if you are that sincere?
Your own mother has been very insulting - do you intend to address this also?
"Are you trying to *win* this discussion or are you trying to persuade me?"
Neither - I am defending the truth.
"Note that in our discussion I intend that we both win, i.e. that we have mutual benefit. Insulting me doesn't help with this. Do you agree?"
Absolutely, point taken.
Let B be "The idea that the reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them was that it caused muslims to fall into sin."
A and B contradict each other. Which do you disagree with?"
So from X's and Y's, we go to A's and B's - these are your summaries and not mine. I have never claimed that B is the one and only reason that 6 had to be destroyed, unless you can prove it.
I have maintained that 6 had to be destroyed to leave the master copy which was never under any doubt.
--
"What is the purpose of the insults? Do they help your argument? Have you noticed that I don't insult you? Why don't you do the same with me?"
No problem - It would be uncivilised to ignore your points here. However, when was the last time you challenged any of the insults directed to me, if you are that sincere?
Your own mother has been very insulting - do you intend to address this also?
"Are you trying to *win* this discussion or are you trying to persuade me?"
Neither - I am defending the truth.
"Note that in our discussion I intend that we both win, i.e. that we have mutual benefit. Insulting me doesn't help with this. Do you agree?"
Absolutely, point taken.
written by No More Confused , February 21, 2012
"I have maintained that 6 had to be destroyed to leave the master copy which was never under any doubt."
A Master copy is always made first.
In case some people make fake copies those are destroyed to keep the master copy intact.
In quran case a Master Copy is being selected from 7 copies.
Also you are avoiding hajjaj bin yousaf for his role in applying aa'rab to quran?
How can you make a Master copy without aa'rab.
e.g dahahaa and duhahaa would have two different meanings.
A Master copy is always made first.
In case some people make fake copies those are destroyed to keep the master copy intact.
In quran case a Master Copy is being selected from 7 copies.
Also you are avoiding hajjaj bin yousaf for his role in applying aa'rab to quran?
How can you make a Master copy without aa'rab.
e.g dahahaa and duhahaa would have two different meanings.
written by Muslim and proud , February 21, 2012
How could al-Hajjaj, who was governor of Iraq, a small part of Muslim land, able to change the Qur'anic text. And above all how could he change what was commited in the memory of Muslims?
You are clutching at straws. This false allegation has been refuted many many times.
You are clutching at straws. This false allegation has been refuted many many times.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 21, 2012
M&P wrote: "Do not make up your own summary in order to try and deceive us."
Huh?
Rzq was the one who said [and I summarized]: "The reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them was that it caused muslims to fall into sin."
Are you saying thats not what rzq said?
Huh?
Rzq was the one who said [and I summarized]: "The reason that it was necessary to destroy 6 of them was that it caused muslims to fall into sin."
Are you saying thats not what rzq said?
written by fineliving56 , February 21, 2012
If you go back and read what was posted ….you would see I was criticizing and exposing Muhammad ….Not you from the beginning ….
BTW …I will keep doing that ...I will not stop ...I am stating the truth of Muhammad according to Quran and hadeeth ……Muhammad deserves to be criticize because he was the reason for so much destruction and murder of the innocents for 1400 years.
you can disagree …. no one stopping you …
Why do you think insulting Muhammad equals insulting you personally ?
You started to insults everyone from the first post since you started to post here for exposing Muhammad.
You took it on your self to defend him by insulting us …saying such words like .. Old woman[BTW it is not an insult to me.. older is wiser] boy,pathetic,idiots,liars,duck and many more …..
It must be hard to defend the indefensible, so that is why you resort to personal attacks .
I agree with my son .. Discussions become more fruitful if they were free from personal attacks .
BTW …I will keep doing that ...I will not stop ...I am stating the truth of Muhammad according to Quran and hadeeth ……Muhammad deserves to be criticize because he was the reason for so much destruction and murder of the innocents for 1400 years.
you can disagree …. no one stopping you …
Why do you think insulting Muhammad equals insulting you personally ?
You started to insults everyone from the first post since you started to post here for exposing Muhammad.
You took it on your self to defend him by insulting us …saying such words like .. Old woman[BTW it is not an insult to me.. older is wiser] boy,pathetic,idiots,liars,duck and many more …..
It must be hard to defend the indefensible, so that is why you resort to personal attacks .
I agree with my son .. Discussions become more fruitful if they were free from personal attacks .
written by Muslim & Proud , February 21, 2012
"You took it on your self to defend him by insulting us …saying such words like .. Old woman"
Please can you provide the reference where i have said such a thing?
"I am stating the truth of Muhammad according to Quran and hadeeth ……"
Mirza Ghalib has said it is all fabriacted lies - please refer to this article, where he made this comment:
"The Two Unknown Books Allah Revealed to Muhammad"
Do you agree with Mirza's comment:
Yes or No
If you are sincere, you will answer......i'm waiting.
Please can you provide the reference where i have said such a thing?
"I am stating the truth of Muhammad according to Quran and hadeeth ……"
Mirza Ghalib has said it is all fabriacted lies - please refer to this article, where he made this comment:
"The Two Unknown Books Allah Revealed to Muhammad"
Do you agree with Mirza's comment:
Yes or No
If you are sincere, you will answer......i'm waiting.
written by Fineliving56's son , February 21, 2012
M&P wrote: "Your own mother has been very insulting - do you intend to address this also?"
I have been. In person. And I've talked to her about the insults coming from all sides on this site. It was the reason that it took me so long to decide to join in.
Insults only happen when somebody makes the first one. And the problem is that when exmuslims criticize Mohamed, muslims consider this an insult [but clearly it isn't]. Then the muslims make insults to the exmuslims. So both sides think the other side started the insults first.
What I like to do when I'm insulted is to turn the insult around and expose it to the insulter, and explain how it hinders discussion. And I do it without insulting.
I have been. In person. And I've talked to her about the insults coming from all sides on this site. It was the reason that it took me so long to decide to join in.
Insults only happen when somebody makes the first one. And the problem is that when exmuslims criticize Mohamed, muslims consider this an insult [but clearly it isn't]. Then the muslims make insults to the exmuslims. So both sides think the other side started the insults first.
What I like to do when I'm insulted is to turn the insult around and expose it to the insulter, and explain how it hinders discussion. And I do it without insulting.
written by fineliving56 , February 22, 2012
If it was not you who wrote it… it might have been rzq….
at one point, the stream of insults went so far, it got blurry and I might have swished names on posts.
The point in here is, that you and rzq do not LIKE the shower of criticism words we are throwing at Muhammad which it is well deserved and you do not agree even when evidence are quit clear of his own sick actions elaborately described in shocking details and sicking words in Quran, hadeeth,Sirah
The fact is Muhammad was ignorance of the very important fact that a TRUE prophet would have refrained from doing what the pagans were doing at that time and marring little girls …. unknown number of owned and raped slaves ….marring 13 women …. ordering the killing and cutting peoples hands and feet … etc …
A true prophet would have in fact abolished and outlawed such inhumane sick acts.
He was too stupid and too engrossed in his own selfish needs and wants to realize and see the *neon sign* that was flashing in his face but failed to see ….
The avoidance in Q,H,S that proves that he is a liar who faked prophecy to feed his bottomless hunger for ….more power … more women …more richness, steal other people's accomplishment and hard work.
If Q / 33/ 50 /51 are not any indication of Muhammad's bad actions and greed, selfishness and unprophet like, I do not what is ?!
Q says 33/50 talking to Muhammad …
'' we[ Allah ] gave the RIGHT [ halal , ahlalna] to you [ Muhammad to marry all the women who you gave PAYMENTS to [ thats by it self is outrageous … wives are not prostitutes] and women who your right hand owned … and believing women who gave her self to you Muhammad] and to you ONLY as a privilege to you and NOT for all believers, we[ Allah] know that of them we have made to them lawful their wives and those prisoners, their right hand possess, so that will be no difficulty on you [ Muhammad].
If Muhammad was a prophet, I am the queen of England ….
Muslim still
at one point, the stream of insults went so far, it got blurry and I might have swished names on posts.
The point in here is, that you and rzq do not LIKE the shower of criticism words we are throwing at Muhammad which it is well deserved and you do not agree even when evidence are quit clear of his own sick actions elaborately described in shocking details and sicking words in Quran, hadeeth,Sirah
The fact is Muhammad was ignorance of the very important fact that a TRUE prophet would have refrained from doing what the pagans were doing at that time and marring little girls …. unknown number of owned and raped slaves ….marring 13 women …. ordering the killing and cutting peoples hands and feet … etc …
A true prophet would have in fact abolished and outlawed such inhumane sick acts.
He was too stupid and too engrossed in his own selfish needs and wants to realize and see the *neon sign* that was flashing in his face but failed to see ….
The avoidance in Q,H,S that proves that he is a liar who faked prophecy to feed his bottomless hunger for ….more power … more women …more richness, steal other people's accomplishment and hard work.
If Q / 33/ 50 /51 are not any indication of Muhammad's bad actions and greed, selfishness and unprophet like, I do not what is ?!
Q says 33/50 talking to Muhammad …
'' we[ Allah ] gave the RIGHT [ halal , ahlalna] to you [ Muhammad to marry all the women who you gave PAYMENTS to [ thats by it self is outrageous … wives are not prostitutes] and women who your right hand owned … and believing women who gave her self to you Muhammad] and to you ONLY as a privilege to you and NOT for all believers, we[ Allah] know that of them we have made to them lawful their wives and those prisoners, their right hand possess, so that will be no difficulty on you [ Muhammad].
If Muhammad was a prophet, I am the queen of England ….
Muslim still
written by fineliving56 , February 22, 2012
I gave a reply to waiting one and it is gone … I hope it comes back ...
written by Muslim and proud , February 22, 2012
"muslims consider this an insult [but clearly it isn't]."
Constructive criticism would never be taken as an insult.
IF your mum was a liar and someone said to you:
"I think your mum does not tell the truth"
You would not be insulted
Alternatively,
"Your mum is a bloody liar"
Would not go down too well.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out.
Hatred + Hatred = Lots more hatred
Constructive criticism would never be taken as an insult.
IF your mum was a liar and someone said to you:
"I think your mum does not tell the truth"
You would not be insulted
Alternatively,
"Your mum is a bloody liar"
Would not go down too well.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out.
Hatred + Hatred = Lots more hatred
written by Muslim and proud , February 22, 2012
Here is the refutation to the absurd claims of Mirza Ghalib.
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 442:
Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle said, 'Gabriel read the Qur'an to me in one way (i.e. dialect) and I continued asking him to read it in different ways till he read it in seven different ways.'
Please remember that Mirza's boyfriend, Mr Khan (Editor) has already announced that the Hadith are 'trustworthy (even more trustworthy than The Holy Qur'n).
I rest my case.
Peace.
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 442:
Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle said, 'Gabriel read the Qur'an to me in one way (i.e. dialect) and I continued asking him to read it in different ways till he read it in seven different ways.'
Please remember that Mirza's boyfriend, Mr Khan (Editor) has already announced that the Hadith are 'trustworthy (even more trustworthy than The Holy Qur'n).
I rest my case.
Peace.
written by duh_swami , February 22, 2012
Starring Emperor Ming the Merciless, from the planet Mongo, as Mohammad...
The Quran is trustworthy to be a black fairy tale...Like the TV series 'Tales from the Crypt'...The Quran is black because it emanates from the 'dark side'...The hadith are just the movie directors notes to himself...
The Quran is trustworthy to be a black fairy tale...Like the TV series 'Tales from the Crypt'...The Quran is black because it emanates from the 'dark side'...The hadith are just the movie directors notes to himself...
written by Machmoed , February 23, 2012
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 442:
Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle said, 'Gabriel read the Qur'an to me in one way (i.e. dialect) and I continued asking him to read it in different ways till he read it in seven different ways.'
I'm not sure what the moral of this hadith is. Why would a human ask an angel to read something in different ways? To create confusion as hadith tells us?
This is exactly the point scholars pointed out. This hadith was invented to give the different masaheef authority and divine glow in order to maintain the growing empire. Fact: first there were different readings/masaheef and then there was this hadith about the different readings.
Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle said, 'Gabriel read the Qur'an to me in one way (i.e. dialect) and I continued asking him to read it in different ways till he read it in seven different ways.'
I'm not sure what the moral of this hadith is. Why would a human ask an angel to read something in different ways? To create confusion as hadith tells us?
This is exactly the point scholars pointed out. This hadith was invented to give the different masaheef authority and divine glow in order to maintain the growing empire. Fact: first there were different readings/masaheef and then there was this hadith about the different readings.
written by Muslim and proud , February 23, 2012
" This hadith was invented to give the different masaheef authority and divine glow in order to maintain the growing empire."
According to you 'not a single Hadith can be trusted'
According to M A Khan 'The Hadiths are trustworthy'
Jokers
According to you 'not a single Hadith can be trusted'
According to M A Khan 'The Hadiths are trustworthy'
Jokers
written by Machmoed , February 23, 2012
It's about what you and the majority of muslims believe Moron. To us hadith and qur'an are a joke to be divine. Who cares? But as long as you keep believing those lies you call authentic, we will be here make fun it. That's what they are made for.
written by Muslim and proud , February 23, 2012
" But as long as you keep believing those lies you call authentic, we will be here make fun it."
What a wonderful, productive and interesting life you have........not.
You are here to make fun of Islam
Yet this website claims to TELL THE TRUTH about Islam.....
How ironic
What a wonderful, productive and interesting life you have........not.
You are here to make fun of Islam
Yet this website claims to TELL THE TRUTH about Islam.....
How ironic
written by duh_swami , February 23, 2012
You are here to make fun of Islam
Yet this website claims to TELL THE TRUTH about Islam..
You mean you can't have fun and tell the truth of Islam at the same time?
Well you are partly right, a lot of Islam is not the least bit funny, it's ugly...
But there are some parts that are very funny, like watching you and your nephew iqr twist yourselves into knots trying to defend that which is ugly...Hollywood has made movies with that theme...
Yet this website claims to TELL THE TRUTH about Islam..
You mean you can't have fun and tell the truth of Islam at the same time?
Well you are partly right, a lot of Islam is not the least bit funny, it's ugly...
But there are some parts that are very funny, like watching you and your nephew iqr twist yourselves into knots trying to defend that which is ugly...Hollywood has made movies with that theme...
written by duh_swami , February 23, 2012
It's your confessions that are funny.
Imam Daryl was right, you have no talent...
Imam Daryl was right, you have no talent...
written by Machmoed , February 23, 2012
The truth about islam is funny MORON. I see you can't laugh about it. That's because you have no sense of humor. Shooting jinns with stars is very funny my friend. Now laugh at it like we do.
written by Muslim and proud , February 23, 2012
'The truth about islam is funny MORON.'
Mr Liar,
You cannot trust a single Hadith - so how can you even understand what the truth is........moron.
Mr Liar,
You cannot trust a single Hadith - so how can you even understand what the truth is........moron.
written by fineliving56 , February 23, 2012
That was not me ....
The Muslim are playing in here ... they have nothing to do but mess with us ...
Machmoed ... keep your onslaught of criticize of Islam ... we are berrying Islam under it's own lies
sawfa naqpor islam fawqa izaam Muhammad
The Muslim are playing in here ... they have nothing to do but mess with us ...
Machmoed ... keep your onslaught of criticize of Islam ... we are berrying Islam under it's own lies
sawfa naqpor islam fawqa izaam Muhammad
written by duh_swami , February 23, 2012
You cannot trust a single Hadith...
But you do Mr clone...and that is what is funny...
But you do Mr clone...and that is what is funny...
written by Muslim and proud , February 23, 2012
"Machmoed ... keep your onslaught of criticize of Islam ... we are berrying Islam under it's own lies "
Berrying?
Where are you berrying Islam?
Did your son find the Hadith or is he still looking - please pass on my regards to him.
Berrying?
Where are you berrying Islam?
Did your son find the Hadith or is he still looking - please pass on my regards to him.
written by duh_swami , February 23, 2012
Where are you berrying Islam?
Out back with the rest of the trash...
Out back with the rest of the trash...
written by Machmoed , February 24, 2012
I knew it wasn't you finelivings56. The MORON & company are lost and they'll try all kind of things. It is funny.
written by Muslim & Proud , February 24, 2012
If anyone has the right to be Islamaphobic, then its the Jews living in IRAN.......Yes IRAN!!!!
Do you know why these Jews live peacefully in Iran......?
They get on with their lives and let the muslims get on with theirs.
http://www.jewishpostandnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=548:will-israel-provide-the-spark-to-ignite-the-revenge-of-islam&catid=66:marty-green&Itemid=270&lang=en
http://www.factoverfiction.com/article/7154
Have a good read.
Ps. Disclaimer: These articles is not for the faint hearted (those who are Islamaphobic)
Do you know why these Jews live peacefully in Iran......?
They get on with their lives and let the muslims get on with theirs.
http://www.jewishpostandnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=548:will-israel-provide-the-spark-to-ignite-the-revenge-of-islam&catid=66:marty-green&Itemid=270&lang=en
http://www.factoverfiction.com/article/7154
Have a good read.
Ps. Disclaimer: These articles is not for the faint hearted (those who are Islamaphobic)
written by duh_swami , February 24, 2012
No one want's to read your crappy articles POS...
written by bundypig , February 24, 2012
http://newsflavor.com/world/mi...nian-jews/
this is the way it really is with no muzzie slant
this is the way it really is with no muzzie slant
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