Imam Feisal Abdel Rauf claims that the US constitution is Sharia compliant. Now let us examine below a few laws of Sharia to see if Imam Rauf is truthful or a fraud:
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Jihad defined as "to war against non-Muslims to establish the religion" is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.
- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.
- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape.
- A percentage of Zakat (alms) must go towards jihad.
- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.
- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.
- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph in one case, if he rejects Islam.
- A Muslim who leaves Islam must be killed immediately.
- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of : 1) an apostasy 2) an adulterer 3) a highway robber. Making vigilante street justice and honor killing acceptable.
- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim.
- Sharia never abolished slavery and sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave.
- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, amputation of limbs, flogging and other forms of cruel and unusual punishments even for crimes of sin such as adultery.
- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims and must comply to Sharia if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he commits adultery with a Muslim woman or if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.
- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. However, the opposite is not true for Muslims.
- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.
- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.
- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or a bathhouse attendant. Women in such low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.
- A non-Muslim cannot rule even over a non-Muslims minority.
- Homosexuality is punishable by death.
- There is no age limit for marriage of girls under Sharia. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and consummated at age 8 or 9.
- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband’s obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.
- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: “I divorce you” and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.
- There is no common property between husband and wife and the husband’s property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.
- A woman inherits half what a man inherits.
- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and she has no right to divorce him even if he is polygamous.
- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman’s sexual organs.
- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.
- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.
- A woman looses custody if she remarries.
- To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses.
- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.
- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body which is considered “Awrah,” a sexual organ. Some schools of Sharia allow the face and some don’t.
- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife caught in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women since he “could be married to the woman he was caught with.”
The above are clear cut laws in Islam decided by great Imams after years of examination and interpretation of the Quran, Hadith and Mohammed’s life. Now let the learned Imam Rauf tell us what part of the above is compliant with the US constitution?
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written by duh_swami , August 27, 2010
34...A Muslims can kill their children or their childrens children with no Islamic penalty...
written by waterwillows , August 27, 2010
I'll say it again. Muslims have little real understanding of the west and absolutely none at all about America.
It is all around them, in their face and under their nose....but muslims see it not. Keep in mind the west has a very long tradition of "give them enough rope to hang themselves".
Islam is doomed.
It is all around them, in their face and under their nose....but muslims see it not. Keep in mind the west has a very long tradition of "give them enough rope to hang themselves".
Islam is doomed.
written by Abu Taleb , August 27, 2010
4. A percentage of Zakat (alms) must go towards jihad.
The zakat money can go to finance jihad, but it can also go the pocket of the zakat manager (9:60). How much, I think is is the decision of the manager of course. So Islam sanctions corruption by the zakat manager. The caliphate and other government employees are certainly zakat managers.
The zakat money can go to finance jihad, but it can also go the pocket of the zakat manager (9:60). How much, I think is is the decision of the manager of course. So Islam sanctions corruption by the zakat manager. The caliphate and other government employees are certainly zakat managers.
written by cham chak , August 27, 2010
is it true islam is that bad?or the people who claimed they were muslim?
Didn't you all noticed, all the countries mentioned, were only in arab, india, n other 'in war' countries..
How about indonesia, brunei, n Malaysia?
See what islam really means to them..
I'm not a good muslim but i'm not a bad person..
You may be a monk, pope, rabai, priest, and 'imam'..
You may be a jews, cristian, muslim, buddist, or non believer..
But you're still a human being..
Human can't escape from making mistakes..
Stop fighting about that mistakes..
Find a way, peace way to solve it..
Don't fight fire/hate with fire/hate..
Fight it with water/peace..
Anything, ask me..
Didn't you all noticed, all the countries mentioned, were only in arab, india, n other 'in war' countries..
How about indonesia, brunei, n Malaysia?
See what islam really means to them..
I'm not a good muslim but i'm not a bad person..
You may be a monk, pope, rabai, priest, and 'imam'..
You may be a jews, cristian, muslim, buddist, or non believer..
But you're still a human being..
Human can't escape from making mistakes..
Stop fighting about that mistakes..
Find a way, peace way to solve it..
Don't fight fire/hate with fire/hate..
Fight it with water/peace..
Anything, ask me..
written by dead or alive , August 27, 2010
Does this Zakat apply to just unbeliever? Or like in 2nd temple days when those who ruled the roost watched people in public give alms?
written by waterwillows , August 27, 2010
cham chak,
You may want to google -religion of peace- click on the top article. That will take you to a page where a constant daily tally is kept on crimes of terror and horror commited by Islam since 9/11.
It will also show you the terrible intolerance in Indonesia and Malaysia done to non-muslims on a constant basis.
You will find when you take a look around there is no peaceful muslim country. Doesn't exist. Any country muslims move to, will in a short period of time join in the no peace, for the so-called peaceful religion.
You may want to google -religion of peace- click on the top article. That will take you to a page where a constant daily tally is kept on crimes of terror and horror commited by Islam since 9/11.
It will also show you the terrible intolerance in Indonesia and Malaysia done to non-muslims on a constant basis.
You will find when you take a look around there is no peaceful muslim country. Doesn't exist. Any country muslims move to, will in a short period of time join in the no peace, for the so-called peaceful religion.
written by cham cham , August 27, 2010
waterwillows,
i'm 19 right now..
And for my whole life, i never heard a country in peace, doesn't matter in past or present, islamic or not, east or west..
Egypt, rome, europe, china, n even american civil war..
Did islam cause the war??
World war 1 n 2..
Islam cause it??
Vietnam war..
Islam cause it??
The cause is n always the human's weakness..
Hate, anger, sloth, lust, pride, envy, and greed..
Religion is what you believe..not what they told you it is..
I know i'm too young and doesn't got enough experience..
Even in my country, chinese, indians, n malays always fighting each other..
But i know..
It's not our race, colour or religions that cause this..
It's our believes that are wrong..
So, please don't blame other side..
But solve it side by side..
Youngster believe in the older..don't destroy that believe..
i'm 19 right now..
And for my whole life, i never heard a country in peace, doesn't matter in past or present, islamic or not, east or west..
Egypt, rome, europe, china, n even american civil war..
Did islam cause the war??
World war 1 n 2..
Islam cause it??
Vietnam war..
Islam cause it??
The cause is n always the human's weakness..
Hate, anger, sloth, lust, pride, envy, and greed..
Religion is what you believe..not what they told you it is..
I know i'm too young and doesn't got enough experience..
Even in my country, chinese, indians, n malays always fighting each other..
But i know..
It's not our race, colour or religions that cause this..
It's our believes that are wrong..
So, please don't blame other side..
But solve it side by side..
Youngster believe in the older..don't destroy that believe..
written by Bible Prophecy , August 27, 2010
You accuse an imam of ingorance, but then come up with a list of which over 70% is TOTALLY BASELESS and the rest extremely in-accurate. Only about 5 or 6 points are accurate.
written by waterwillows , August 27, 2010
cham cham,
This is true about wars happening all over the world at different times. These wars break out mostly for greed and politics. They just happen.
This is not so with Islam. War with Islam does not just happen. It is part and parcel of the way of muslims. That is what most of the Quran is all about, killing and more killing of the infidel. Muslims are not supposed to stop the murders until we are all dead or paying the dhimmi tax. So in Islam war is pre-determined and deliberate. It is a must do for all muslims.
There is no peace in Islam. There is only war; which is what they will get.
This is true about wars happening all over the world at different times. These wars break out mostly for greed and politics. They just happen.
This is not so with Islam. War with Islam does not just happen. It is part and parcel of the way of muslims. That is what most of the Quran is all about, killing and more killing of the infidel. Muslims are not supposed to stop the murders until we are all dead or paying the dhimmi tax. So in Islam war is pre-determined and deliberate. It is a must do for all muslims.
There is no peace in Islam. There is only war; which is what they will get.
written by duh_swami , August 27, 2010
That........................'The cause is n always the human's weakness..
Hate, anger, sloth, lust, pride, envy, and greed'.........
Plus Quran + Mohammad.= Islam...
Did islam cause the war??
World war 1 n 2..
Islam was Hitlers helper in ww2...
Hate, anger, sloth, lust, pride, envy, and greed'.........
Plus Quran + Mohammad.= Islam...
Did islam cause the war??
World war 1 n 2..
Islam was Hitlers helper in ww2...
written by Abu Taleb , August 27, 2010
As an Indonesian, I can tell you that Indonesia is not far behind in implementing Islamic rules to oppress people and make war with the non muslims. If Indonesia is hardly heard so far, it is not because of Islam teaching, it is because of the non Islamic values that still live among its people who hardly know about Islam. For example, my housemaid doesn't know that Mo has many wives.
The more people know Islam, the more hostile they are toward the non muslims. That is what is happening in Indonesia, and everywhere else.
The more people know Islam, the more hostile they are toward the non muslims. That is what is happening in Indonesia, and everywhere else.
written by fineliving56 , August 27, 2010
Please forgive me …...but your out look on islam seems naive and passive.like you said you are 19…. I ask you to read the Quran and its translation then start with Hadeeth …I now it going to be heavy reading but please do not take anyones word for it …most muslims around you have their own agendas in practicing Islam …when you do discover the violent Quran Ayaes hidden in between the peaceful Ayas for the purpose of deceiving young and impressionist person like you I am sure you will have an eye or mind opening experience. please keep in touch ….
Good luck …
Good luck …
written by Archpagan , August 27, 2010
Cham Chak, your country Malaysia is as barbaric as the Saudis and Taliban so far as treatment of non-Muslims are concerned. You try every dirty tricks in the filthy book named al Koran to harass and subjugate the non-Muslims. Your ethics is to convert them as Muslims by hook or by crook. Your laws and constitution are designed to suit that purpose. Perhaps Oman is the most civilized of the Muslim countries in the world. They allow non-Muslims citizenship status if they continuously reside in their country for 20 year.
written by Healer_999 , August 28, 2010
cham cham wrote " I'm not a good muslim but i'm not a bad person.. "
It is an oxymoron.
It is an oxymoron.
written by BURN THE KORAN YEAR , August 28, 2010
oh man...i am converting to islam and marrying women and hving women sklaves...and on top for doing this i get 72 virgins in imaginary jannaat.
written by waterwillows , August 28, 2010
BURN THE KORAN YEAR,
I can't say that you will get 72 virgins in imaginary jannaat. But how about one young goat? You can have that right here on earth, right now. It is perfectly legal in Islam.
The drawback is that you will not be able to eat the raped goat afterwards. So chicken would have to be on the menu on rape a goat day.
The other bit of interest.....you can sell the goat to non-muslims for food.
Would 72 goats make up for your disappointment? LOL
I can't say that you will get 72 virgins in imaginary jannaat. But how about one young goat? You can have that right here on earth, right now. It is perfectly legal in Islam.
The drawback is that you will not be able to eat the raped goat afterwards. So chicken would have to be on the menu on rape a goat day.
The other bit of interest.....you can sell the goat to non-muslims for food.
Would 72 goats make up for your disappointment? LOL
written by Abu Taleb , August 28, 2010
From some Malaysian friends, I learnt some discrimination toward the non muslims/non Malays such as:
1. The Malays as the "indigenous" people have certain rights under law which do not apply to the rest.
2. If a Malay (technically born as a muslim) becomes an apostate, s/he will lose the rights above.
3. Any Chinese company must hire 1 Malay every 4 employees.
(I put the word "indigenous" under quote because the Malay does discriminate the real indigenous people in Malaysia, for example the Dayak people in Borneo island)
It is the law in Malaysia to discriminate people based on religion (item 2 shows that). Does it have anything to do with Islam? Yes, it does, because it is the very rule of shariah implemented in every Islamic country, and Quran and hadiths tell the muslims to do so.
Any muslim claims Malaysia is not a racist country (or religiously discriminating) is certainly a liar.
1. The Malays as the "indigenous" people have certain rights under law which do not apply to the rest.
2. If a Malay (technically born as a muslim) becomes an apostate, s/he will lose the rights above.
3. Any Chinese company must hire 1 Malay every 4 employees.
(I put the word "indigenous" under quote because the Malay does discriminate the real indigenous people in Malaysia, for example the Dayak people in Borneo island)
It is the law in Malaysia to discriminate people based on religion (item 2 shows that). Does it have anything to do with Islam? Yes, it does, because it is the very rule of shariah implemented in every Islamic country, and Quran and hadiths tell the muslims to do so.
Any muslim claims Malaysia is not a racist country (or religiously discriminating) is certainly a liar.
written by duh_swami , August 28, 2010
So chicken would have to be on the menu on rape a goat day.
Four or five years ago now, a Nigerian man was having sex with a chicken, and his wife caught him at it...The whole tribe laughed at him so much that he killed himself...I have no idea how one has sex with a chicken...I would think the chicken would object...
Four or five years ago now, a Nigerian man was having sex with a chicken, and his wife caught him at it...The whole tribe laughed at him so much that he killed himself...I have no idea how one has sex with a chicken...I would think the chicken would object...
written by AL KAFIR 786 , August 28, 2010
to terrorist chamchak
do u know yr own bloody islamic history.
i am an ex-muslim from india,and here in india muslims have created mayhem for non muslims
for last 1200 yrs and still continues.
if islam is a religion of peace why muslims invaded india and killed looted pillaged
and destroyed thounsads of hindu and buddhist temples ?
pls just google and find out all ofthis bcoz of lust for imaginary
houries by muslims.
leave islam before it makes u a terrorist jihadi who wants to kill others for imaginary
virgins/houries.
written by Abu Taleb , August 28, 2010
Islam's entrance in Indonesia was not so peacefull as people said. There were wars to subdue the existing non muslims kingdoms.
And the muslims try to disguise the jihad war into liberation war, for example there was a jihad war by the people in West Sumatera against their own tribe who were not following Islamic rule. Those jihadists killed and raped too. Finally the Netherland Indie government fought the jihadists to stop the massacre. So much for peaceful Islam.
And the muslims try to disguise the jihad war into liberation war, for example there was a jihad war by the people in West Sumatera against their own tribe who were not following Islamic rule. Those jihadists killed and raped too. Finally the Netherland Indie government fought the jihadists to stop the massacre. So much for peaceful Islam.
written by AntiMO! , August 28, 2010
In his book quran and hadiths ,he always chats about the animals ,the rocks who saluted him as a messanger.Sorry for my ignorance sorry for my jahilliah
but I just want to know, did he think that he was Esop?
Next thing, think about a divine so called latest religion, will dramatically,drasticaly,desperately,miserably will base on the cube Kaaba of pagans? But they are so foxy;just to hide it ,they announced the cube was first built by Adam and Eve and then rebuilt by Abraham.Yes, now you are expected to shut up and be submissive!!!
but I just want to know, did he think that he was Esop? Next thing, think about a divine so called latest religion, will dramatically,drasticaly,desperately,miserably will base on the cube Kaaba of pagans? But they are so foxy;just to hide it ,they announced the cube was first built by Adam and Eve and then rebuilt by Abraham.Yes, now you are expected to shut up and be submissive!!!
written by demsci , August 29, 2010
Hello Cham Chak and Cham Cham, you are starting to think well about our Criticism, Exposure of and Protest against Islam. And our holding Muslims Accountable for what they choose.
Believe it or not, but we think a lot like you already. What you desire and describe sounds a lot like reasonable democracy in action. And the laws of democratic nations are considered well and they were often made by people like you, with your peaceful desires. But they thought much further, after much experience with human weaknesses and much debate.
Now look at what Nonie Darwish tells us and you. Islam opposes in 33 ways this democratic reasonable equality for all approach. It is in black and white, in Islamic teachings and declarations of influential Muslims. THEY don't want to do what you long to do, what the vast majority of us long to do; be fair and reasonable, doing deep thinking about living peacefully side by side and hence changing the laws when appropriate (their laws are immutable because they say God sent them).
You know, you could say that there are 7 catagories of faith; Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and then also Atheism (in a way) and then the multiple small religions. In our view, in secular democracies, all 7 faiths are viewed equally, have full equal rights. But in Islamic states, Islam is given more power, more rights than the rest. And in Islamic writings and declarations for a big part the goal is Islamic supremacy over the other faiths.
So, if secular democracies win, Muslims only risk being equally treated as followers of other faiths, but if Islam wins, than these other-faith followers become disadvantaged 2nd rank civilians if they don't fight and get killed. That's what this Shariah-list of Nonie Darwish showes you.
And the evidence for this claim is now so overwhelming that it's now the Muslims who must try to prove the opposite.
Believe it or not, but we think a lot like you already. What you desire and describe sounds a lot like reasonable democracy in action. And the laws of democratic nations are considered well and they were often made by people like you, with your peaceful desires. But they thought much further, after much experience with human weaknesses and much debate.
Now look at what Nonie Darwish tells us and you. Islam opposes in 33 ways this democratic reasonable equality for all approach. It is in black and white, in Islamic teachings and declarations of influential Muslims. THEY don't want to do what you long to do, what the vast majority of us long to do; be fair and reasonable, doing deep thinking about living peacefully side by side and hence changing the laws when appropriate (their laws are immutable because they say God sent them).
You know, you could say that there are 7 catagories of faith; Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and then also Atheism (in a way) and then the multiple small religions. In our view, in secular democracies, all 7 faiths are viewed equally, have full equal rights. But in Islamic states, Islam is given more power, more rights than the rest. And in Islamic writings and declarations for a big part the goal is Islamic supremacy over the other faiths.
So, if secular democracies win, Muslims only risk being equally treated as followers of other faiths, but if Islam wins, than these other-faith followers become disadvantaged 2nd rank civilians if they don't fight and get killed. That's what this Shariah-list of Nonie Darwish showes you.
And the evidence for this claim is now so overwhelming that it's now the Muslims who must try to prove the opposite.
written by Machmoed , August 30, 2010
Great thinking Demsci.
Muslims have nothing to loose. Non-muslims do. A democrate doesn’t care about religion. Democratic laws are for everybody living in that nation, no matter what colour the skin, the race and religion. Religionists do care about non-religionists in a negative way. A religionist thinks he has to bring the good to the bad (a non-believer is bad and has to know the good tidings/message etc. in order to get better (to be saved)) so he would be a good believer. Now this is ofcourse just an opinion. That’s what religion is, a big opinion and ofcourse they have their use. It’s actually stupid to believe that God wants a group to fight an other group or that he would choose a nation to be his people etc.
Muslims have nothing to loose. Non-muslims do. A democrate doesn’t care about religion. Democratic laws are for everybody living in that nation, no matter what colour the skin, the race and religion. Religionists do care about non-religionists in a negative way. A religionist thinks he has to bring the good to the bad (a non-believer is bad and has to know the good tidings/message etc. in order to get better (to be saved)) so he would be a good believer. Now this is ofcourse just an opinion. That’s what religion is, a big opinion and ofcourse they have their use. It’s actually stupid to believe that God wants a group to fight an other group or that he would choose a nation to be his people etc.
written by Gilly , August 30, 2010
Waterwillows "give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves....." sorry, mate - you're wrong there. It's more like give them enough rope and they'll hang us.
Demographics...... most European governments, when faced with tens of thousands of Muslims demanding their own way - will give in. It's already happening in the US and in Europe.
Machmoed - Hard to believe God wants groups to fight each other. Maybe - but it's not God - it's Muslims who want to fight others. I smell troll.....
Cham chak - what goes around comes around. I wouldn't gloat if I were you. Won't be long before the West fights back. It's coming.... believe me.
Demographics...... most European governments, when faced with tens of thousands of Muslims demanding their own way - will give in. It's already happening in the US and in Europe.
Machmoed - Hard to believe God wants groups to fight each other. Maybe - but it's not God - it's Muslims who want to fight others. I smell troll.....
Cham chak - what goes around comes around. I wouldn't gloat if I were you. Won't be long before the West fights back. It's coming.... believe me.
written by Machmoed , August 31, 2010
Machmoed - Hard to believe God wants groups to fight each other. Maybe - but it's not God - it's Muslims who want to fight others. I smell troll.....
That's my point Gilly. I don't believe in Prophets etc. so to me it's all human. Do you something about history. You know it's about action reaction don't you. You know many arbs and jews were banned from their homes (thousands of them in 3d, 4th and 5th century. Muhajiroen are called this way because they had to flee their homes due to monofysite Christians (not because of the bible, but because of wealth, power etc) After many years the arabs had kingdoms (before even Muhammad was born). These arab kindoms used to be a space between Byzantines and the persians as a barrier between these 2 great powers of that time. The arabs didn't had a great army (especially in comparison with the giants of that time as mentioned before). Byzantines and the persians were bad to their people so when the muslims came along they helped them conquer their own countries. It's not about that time and the ideology of that time. It's about now and ofcourse islam like any religion has an human origin and everything that's human, it gets outdated. Therefor, I believe holy books are only holy (to people) in certain times when people do not know as much we do now. Nowadays those scriptures should be read for spiritual purposes only and not to rule, explain life. It has been shown to many that it is not compatible with our understanding of the universe/life nowadays.
That's my point Gilly. I don't believe in Prophets etc. so to me it's all human. Do you something about history. You know it's about action reaction don't you. You know many arbs and jews were banned from their homes (thousands of them in 3d, 4th and 5th century. Muhajiroen are called this way because they had to flee their homes due to monofysite Christians (not because of the bible, but because of wealth, power etc) After many years the arabs had kingdoms (before even Muhammad was born). These arab kindoms used to be a space between Byzantines and the persians as a barrier between these 2 great powers of that time. The arabs didn't had a great army (especially in comparison with the giants of that time as mentioned before). Byzantines and the persians were bad to their people so when the muslims came along they helped them conquer their own countries. It's not about that time and the ideology of that time. It's about now and ofcourse islam like any religion has an human origin and everything that's human, it gets outdated. Therefor, I believe holy books are only holy (to people) in certain times when people do not know as much we do now. Nowadays those scriptures should be read for spiritual purposes only and not to rule, explain life. It has been shown to many that it is not compatible with our understanding of the universe/life nowadays.
written by duh_swami , August 31, 2010
tens of thousands of Muslims demanding their own way - will give in. It's already happening in the US and in Europe.
True, but it's only good for a short run...No western country is going to turn over it's kufr military to Muslims...A military's prime directive is to survive...then to serve and protect...
True, but it's only good for a short run...No western country is going to turn over it's kufr military to Muslims...A military's prime directive is to survive...then to serve and protect...
written by Archpagan , August 31, 2010
You are absolutely right when you said 'it’s actually stupid to believe that God wants a group to fight another group or that he would choose a nation to be his people etc.'
Actually, some political leaders invoked God to serve their own political ends.
Actually, some political leaders invoked God to serve their own political ends.
written by demsci , August 31, 2010
Thanks for the compliment, Machmoed, it means a lot to me.
I like your grasp of history and your conclusion about religion very much. We know the Arabs occupied lands between the Byzantines and the Persians. Who fought each other tooth and nail and may well have been oppressive to some of their subjects. John O'Neill by the way even believes the history between # 614 + 911 is written wrong and that somehow the mighty Persian armies really helped conquer the Byzantine territories for Islam, in his book "Holy Warriors".
So it can be explained why Islam was successful back then. But nowadays, to cling to such outdated books, wanting them to be still so all-important, it really is, eh, not fit for this age. Why can't many young well-educated Muslims not see that and submit to reasonable, flexible, modern Democratic laws? Keeping Islam only for some private guidance?
I like your grasp of history and your conclusion about religion very much. We know the Arabs occupied lands between the Byzantines and the Persians. Who fought each other tooth and nail and may well have been oppressive to some of their subjects. John O'Neill by the way even believes the history between # 614 + 911 is written wrong and that somehow the mighty Persian armies really helped conquer the Byzantine territories for Islam, in his book "Holy Warriors".
So it can be explained why Islam was successful back then. But nowadays, to cling to such outdated books, wanting them to be still so all-important, it really is, eh, not fit for this age. Why can't many young well-educated Muslims not see that and submit to reasonable, flexible, modern Democratic laws? Keeping Islam only for some private guidance?
written by duh_swami , September 01, 2010
I believe holy books are only holy (to people) in certain times when people do not know as much we do now. Nowadays
Now there's a very good point...
In those days certain literate people had access to many more books and manuscripts than we do today, because lots and lots of those books were burned...
But not one of those books contain the information that anyone has at their fingertips today...The actual knowledge seekers then, wrote 'books' on what they already knew, or thought they knew...They attempted by language and symbolism to convey what was basically not understood...In the Bible dept,
greed and power driven men, grasped political control of religion, mostly the Catholic, and used that control, not to glorify God or Jesus, but to glorify themselves...The 'book' became 'the way' to control men's minds, behavior, and purse...With Islam, it is the Quran that is used to control men, their minds, and their purse...Today, the spiritual and scientific throw backs will do or say anything to further the causes of dead men...Not all these people have ill intent, many are well meaning...But that does not always mean they are right...
There are those here who reject science in favor of books that are either fiction to begin with, or are so loaded with symbolism that the average reader can't understand them...This non understanding leads to misunderstanding...Which is where most 'people of the books' are at...and almost all of them are stuck there...Once you think your book has all the answers, no further advancement is possible and stagnation sets in...People who's minds are stagnant are easy to control...The cure for this is to break those chains of bondage and rise above them...this is called apostasy, it is also called science...necessary for real human spiritual development...
Now there's a very good point...
In those days certain literate people had access to many more books and manuscripts than we do today, because lots and lots of those books were burned...
But not one of those books contain the information that anyone has at their fingertips today...The actual knowledge seekers then, wrote 'books' on what they already knew, or thought they knew...They attempted by language and symbolism to convey what was basically not understood...In the Bible dept,
greed and power driven men, grasped political control of religion, mostly the Catholic, and used that control, not to glorify God or Jesus, but to glorify themselves...The 'book' became 'the way' to control men's minds, behavior, and purse...With Islam, it is the Quran that is used to control men, their minds, and their purse...Today, the spiritual and scientific throw backs will do or say anything to further the causes of dead men...Not all these people have ill intent, many are well meaning...But that does not always mean they are right...
There are those here who reject science in favor of books that are either fiction to begin with, or are so loaded with symbolism that the average reader can't understand them...This non understanding leads to misunderstanding...Which is where most 'people of the books' are at...and almost all of them are stuck there...Once you think your book has all the answers, no further advancement is possible and stagnation sets in...People who's minds are stagnant are easy to control...The cure for this is to break those chains of bondage and rise above them...this is called apostasy, it is also called science...necessary for real human spiritual development...
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written by duh_swami , September 01, 2010
Is this an example of Chinese sneaker jiihad? Why are you posting that?
written by Machmoed , September 01, 2010
Duh,
You have explained it perfectly...as always. The post of replica etc. I don't understand the importance of it and what does it have to do with islam in perticular or religion in general. Maybe a mistake. Understandable but try to focus on what we are talking about. It's certainly not about sneekers
You have explained it perfectly...as always. The post of replica etc. I don't understand the importance of it and what does it have to do with islam in perticular or religion in general. Maybe a mistake. Understandable but try to focus on what we are talking about. It's certainly not about sneekers
written by waterwillows , September 02, 2010
suh_swami,
Perhaps the people who found their answers in the Book, shook off backwardness, ignorance and poverty?
They did not stagnate but made immense progress happen. The brilliance of the Judeo/Christian heritage is apparent to everyone.
Perhaps the people who found their answers in the Book, shook off backwardness, ignorance and poverty?
They did not stagnate but made immense progress happen. The brilliance of the Judeo/Christian heritage is apparent to everyone.
written by duh_swami , September 03, 2010
Perhaps the people who found their answers in the Book, shook off backwardness, ignorance and poverty?
They did not stagnate but made immense progress happen. The brilliance of the Judeo/Christian heritage is apparent to everyone.
When Christianity became the official religion of Rome, Europe plunged into the dark ages for hundreds of years...I don't see too much 'brilliance' in that...
They did not stagnate but made immense progress happen. The brilliance of the Judeo/Christian heritage is apparent to everyone.
When Christianity became the official religion of Rome, Europe plunged into the dark ages for hundreds of years...I don't see too much 'brilliance' in that...
written by waterwillows , September 03, 2010
duh_swami,
There wasn't much brilliance at all. But then they are called the Dark Ages, because they did not understand their book and actually in many ways went fully against it.
In all thy gettings My son, get understanding. I don't believe men always find that instruction an easy one, but if they do this command, things get better.
There wasn't much brilliance at all. But then they are called the Dark Ages, because they did not understand their book and actually in many ways went fully against it.
In all thy gettings My son, get understanding. I don't believe men always find that instruction an easy one, but if they do this command, things get better.
written by duh_swami , September 03, 2010
Of course...they did not understand theirook and actually in many ways went fully against it.
The criminals who grasps the Church power in those days, knew fully well the meaning of the book...but power, money, and women corrupted them.
Maybe you already have read it, but the history of the Church in Europe up till the reformation, is full of evil men doing evil things...usually in the name of God...
The criminals who grasps the Church power in those days, knew fully well the meaning of the book...but power, money, and women corrupted them.
Maybe you already have read it, but the history of the Church in Europe up till the reformation, is full of evil men doing evil things...usually in the name of God...
written by waterwillows , September 03, 2010
duh_swami,
The painful truth is that evil men, will always desire to do evil things. And they do not require using the name of God for it, but some feel that it helps the cause of horror, so they use it. Evil is just that....evil.
In this matter you are not correct. Evil men do not understand the Scriptures because the Book is arranged in layers, like an onion.
When men come to repentance of their evil, they encounter the first layer but are not ready for 'peeling' the layers of insight. To persist is the only way to start the peeling process. A quick read, simply won't do it.
To say power, money and women corrupted them is not accurate. It is an attempt to place/share the blame elsewhere. It was their own inner Twisted Desire for these things that corrupted them. This evil was born in their own head and they chose it....as in a decision. Not the actual item listed. They have only themselves, alone, to blame. Nothing else.
Power, money and women do not corrupt others because they understand moderation and fear of the Lord.
The painful truth is that evil men, will always desire to do evil things. And they do not require using the name of God for it, but some feel that it helps the cause of horror, so they use it. Evil is just that....evil.
In this matter you are not correct. Evil men do not understand the Scriptures because the Book is arranged in layers, like an onion.
When men come to repentance of their evil, they encounter the first layer but are not ready for 'peeling' the layers of insight. To persist is the only way to start the peeling process. A quick read, simply won't do it.
To say power, money and women corrupted them is not accurate. It is an attempt to place/share the blame elsewhere. It was their own inner Twisted Desire for these things that corrupted them. This evil was born in their own head and they chose it....as in a decision. Not the actual item listed. They have only themselves, alone, to blame. Nothing else.
Power, money and women do not corrupt others because they understand moderation and fear of the Lord.
written by duh_swami , September 04, 2010
To say power, money and women corrupted them is not accurate.
Yes it is, especially power... but you are also correct that there are deeper reasons that this happens...
There are people who function just fine until they get a little power, then they go to hell, and take others with them...This is extremely common, and almost no one escapes it...Everyone who is trying direct anything is asserting his power either rightly or wrongly...The problem is that no living person that I know of has completely risen above his ego and the desire to be 'right' every time...
That's why you have mean bosses, antagonizing wives, know it all liberals,
and religious people who know everything...Sometimes this is expressed by violence or illegal activities...Most of the time this is referred to by the pious as sin...
Yes it is, especially power... but you are also correct that there are deeper reasons that this happens...
There are people who function just fine until they get a little power, then they go to hell, and take others with them...This is extremely common, and almost no one escapes it...Everyone who is trying direct anything is asserting his power either rightly or wrongly...The problem is that no living person that I know of has completely risen above his ego and the desire to be 'right' every time...
That's why you have mean bosses, antagonizing wives, know it all liberals,
and religious people who know everything...Sometimes this is expressed by violence or illegal activities...Most of the time this is referred to by the pious as sin...
written by helzzspawnzz , September 04, 2010
Hi,
Pleasee provide the source for these 'shariah" laws that you have clearly outline. It seems like you got it out of a book, pleazse reference the source of your material. I like to verify the material given to me before I start to use them in my argument or stand against islamic people.
Pleasee provide the source for these 'shariah" laws that you have clearly outline. It seems like you got it out of a book, pleazse reference the source of your material. I like to verify the material given to me before I start to use them in my argument or stand against islamic people.
written by waterwillows , September 04, 2010
duh_swami,
There are men who have much/little power and do much good. Not only today, but history is also a witness to this. Then there are men, in pretty much the same circumstances and they do much evil.
The external items such as money, women, power are not the cause of evil, it is used as an excuse to not accept responsibility for ones own choices and actions. This excuse is never, but never accepted. Only the taking of responsibility for one's own deeds is acceptable. It is the only way a errant person can put it behind them and move on as a better, wiser person. There are no persons who have not at some time been in error.
There are men who have much/little power and do much good. Not only today, but history is also a witness to this. Then there are men, in pretty much the same circumstances and they do much evil.
The external items such as money, women, power are not the cause of evil, it is used as an excuse to not accept responsibility for ones own choices and actions. This excuse is never, but never accepted. Only the taking of responsibility for one's own deeds is acceptable. It is the only way a errant person can put it behind them and move on as a better, wiser person. There are no persons who have not at some time been in error.
written by duh_swami , September 04, 2010
The external items such as money, women, power are not the cause of evil,
Maybe, maybe not...If these are not root causes of evil, what 'is' the cause of evil?v I already said you have half the answer and you just repeated yourself.
Why do evil men always manifest their evil in the same basic ways? Nearly always chasing power, money, and women...
I already know the answer to that...but I would like to hear your take on it...
Maybe, maybe not...If these are not root causes of evil, what 'is' the cause of evil?v I already said you have half the answer and you just repeated yourself.
Why do evil men always manifest their evil in the same basic ways? Nearly always chasing power, money, and women...
I already know the answer to that...but I would like to hear your take on it...
written by waterwillows , September 04, 2010
duh_swami,
We were all given the freedom to choose between good and evil. If we did not have the chance to make choices, we would be like robots......or animals who live by instinct alone.
This would not do for the children of the Most High. How could there be a True Kinship, if we had no free will? Is like, not unto like?
So there remains in the world both good and evil, life and death. It is up to us to freely choose and accept the consquences of our choices. Think not there is no justice. It may seemed delayed to some, but our universe is so super wrapped in the laws and commands of the Lord, that not one tiny bit is overlooked. Which is the reason for the writing: Vengence is Mine, saidth the Lord. You see, the consquences are more or less fixed. We will get back, what we have put forth. His advice is to lessen the hardships we bring to ourselves. We don't always listen.
Why do a lot of men always choose the same evils? I suppose it is what is most desirable to them to fatten their ego, and lord it over other men. So they have a deep desire to control others by flashing, what seems to them to be pure gold. But it is fool's gold instead.
They have forgotten the fear of the Lord. That fear would have guarded their steps and allowed them to turn away from bad choices. Instead of seeking that which would please the Lord and thereby become respected, honorable men, they seek to please only themselves and in doing so have soiled and degraded themselves. To choose to be selfish is usually at the heart of poor choices.
The Laws and Commands of the Lord are not in place to benefit Him. They were given so that we, would have that which is of real benefit. We may choose to seek out that which is of real benefit and come to understand the difference. There is much we need to learn.
We were all given the freedom to choose between good and evil. If we did not have the chance to make choices, we would be like robots......or animals who live by instinct alone.
This would not do for the children of the Most High. How could there be a True Kinship, if we had no free will? Is like, not unto like?
So there remains in the world both good and evil, life and death. It is up to us to freely choose and accept the consquences of our choices. Think not there is no justice. It may seemed delayed to some, but our universe is so super wrapped in the laws and commands of the Lord, that not one tiny bit is overlooked. Which is the reason for the writing: Vengence is Mine, saidth the Lord. You see, the consquences are more or less fixed. We will get back, what we have put forth. His advice is to lessen the hardships we bring to ourselves. We don't always listen.
Why do a lot of men always choose the same evils? I suppose it is what is most desirable to them to fatten their ego, and lord it over other men. So they have a deep desire to control others by flashing, what seems to them to be pure gold. But it is fool's gold instead.
They have forgotten the fear of the Lord. That fear would have guarded their steps and allowed them to turn away from bad choices. Instead of seeking that which would please the Lord and thereby become respected, honorable men, they seek to please only themselves and in doing so have soiled and degraded themselves. To choose to be selfish is usually at the heart of poor choices.
The Laws and Commands of the Lord are not in place to benefit Him. They were given so that we, would have that which is of real benefit. We may choose to seek out that which is of real benefit and come to understand the difference. There is much we need to learn.
written by duh_swami , September 04, 2010
They have forgotten the fear of the Lord.
I don't care much for your 'holier than though' attitude...Everything you say I have heard before, there is nothing new in it, hundreds, thousands of books have been written on the same subjects...None of them, including you, can prove not one iota of it...If talking a lot about what you can't possibly 'know' about, makes you feel 'enlightened', that's fine with me..But talk is cheap, lets see something concrete...Let's hear about this mysterious 'fast track' you mention on another thread...
I don't fear the Lord, and I will not fear the Lord...
I don't care much for your 'holier than though' attitude...Everything you say I have heard before, there is nothing new in it, hundreds, thousands of books have been written on the same subjects...None of them, including you, can prove not one iota of it...If talking a lot about what you can't possibly 'know' about, makes you feel 'enlightened', that's fine with me..But talk is cheap, lets see something concrete...Let's hear about this mysterious 'fast track' you mention on another thread...
I don't fear the Lord, and I will not fear the Lord...
written by waterwillows , September 04, 2010
duh_swami,
Do you think I care about your unfounded accusations? Where does this holier than thou come in?
Awhile back I was in the spirit. It was very high up as in a airplane. The room held a gigantic desk and chair. On the desk was a huge book and I found myself standing on the open page of this book.
The book was written in Hebrew and I was not able to read it. But each letter was way bigger than myself as I walked across the page wishing I could read this language.
No, I did not feel "enlightened". I fully realized just how very small I am in learning, because I am not even bigger than one single letter.
My words are for the most part just plain common sense. And as you say, that is really nothing new.
For others, like myself, who are not scholars; a bit of common sense can go a long way, if we will just use it.
The fast-track is to be found in the Church of your choice. Avoid cults. Go there and begin the journey of seeking to learn.
I am not enlightened enough to teach you, but scholars are there.
Do you think I care about your unfounded accusations? Where does this holier than thou come in?
Awhile back I was in the spirit. It was very high up as in a airplane. The room held a gigantic desk and chair. On the desk was a huge book and I found myself standing on the open page of this book.
The book was written in Hebrew and I was not able to read it. But each letter was way bigger than myself as I walked across the page wishing I could read this language.
No, I did not feel "enlightened". I fully realized just how very small I am in learning, because I am not even bigger than one single letter.
My words are for the most part just plain common sense. And as you say, that is really nothing new.
For others, like myself, who are not scholars; a bit of common sense can go a long way, if we will just use it.
The fast-track is to be found in the Church of your choice. Avoid cults. Go there and begin the journey of seeking to learn.
I am not enlightened enough to teach you, but scholars are there.
written by duh_swami , September 05, 2010
Do you think I care about your unfounded accusations? Where does this holier than thou come in?
You are really full of yourself aren't you...That is the ultimate cop-out...
i question your personal veracity because of these kinds of statements as you made to Archpagan Sept 3rd...And if I wanted to dig further I could find more...
"I do not believe, I know. Belief is to start out, to know is further along. It never ceases to amaze me the vast amount that people do share and seem to not know it"...
Spiritual oneupsmanship is always invalid...You do not 'know' much of anything...You just have a belief system...Yours elevates yourself above others by the kind of statements you make...as above...You pretend that YOU have al the answers, and when challenged you cop out and say:
The fast-track is to be found in the Church of your choice. Avoid cults. Go there and begin the journey of seeking to learn.
Like you did of course, that's how you got superior knowledge on the 'fast track'...Basically another cop-out...Just go to church and read the Bible, and you too can be spiritually advanced over others...Where have I heard 'that' before?...
I told you this before, but once again...When you talk about Islam, you do just fine...When you talk about your own spiritual superiority you fail, and then try to obfuscate challenges...You missed the bible chapter on humility...
I expect you to obfuscate this post as well...
You are really full of yourself aren't you...That is the ultimate cop-out...
i question your personal veracity because of these kinds of statements as you made to Archpagan Sept 3rd...And if I wanted to dig further I could find more...
"I do not believe, I know. Belief is to start out, to know is further along. It never ceases to amaze me the vast amount that people do share and seem to not know it"...
Spiritual oneupsmanship is always invalid...You do not 'know' much of anything...You just have a belief system...Yours elevates yourself above others by the kind of statements you make...as above...You pretend that YOU have al the answers, and when challenged you cop out and say:
The fast-track is to be found in the Church of your choice. Avoid cults. Go there and begin the journey of seeking to learn.
Like you did of course, that's how you got superior knowledge on the 'fast track'...Basically another cop-out...Just go to church and read the Bible, and you too can be spiritually advanced over others...Where have I heard 'that' before?...
I told you this before, but once again...When you talk about Islam, you do just fine...When you talk about your own spiritual superiority you fail, and then try to obfuscate challenges...You missed the bible chapter on humility...
I expect you to obfuscate this post as well...
written by waterwillows , September 05, 2010
duh_swami,
This place is to blog. Fine by me; but try to keep in mind you don't know me, to make any judgement on me.
I consider your opinion, to be just that......your opinion. If you find yourself annoyed by my blogging, don't read my posts.
However, it is not your opinion that I keep uppermost in my mind and I will continue to blog in the manner that I see fit.
This place is to blog. Fine by me; but try to keep in mind you don't know me, to make any judgement on me.
I consider your opinion, to be just that......your opinion. If you find yourself annoyed by my blogging, don't read my posts.
However, it is not your opinion that I keep uppermost in my mind and I will continue to blog in the manner that I see fit.
written by Machmoed , September 06, 2010
Waterwillow,
There is no need to be angry, sad or whatever. The point several posters make is this: Ofcourse it’s ok to believe what you believe. But denying reality is not right. It is reality that religion is not proved yet and probably it never will (if it will, it is no religion anymore but science and not believing but knowing). Religion is talking about the things we’ll never know for sure (that’s why it works on simple minds). No matter how a believer twist and curves, science showed us that religion cannot be the truth (maybe only spiritual). Didn’t you notice the lies believers (Christians) say like: the bible is consistent and the word of God or Muslims about quran: the quran is the litteraly word of God/Allah and it is never been altered. To me it is obvious they both lie. We already know the (holy) books had a meaning. The quran is not from God/Allah but invented by arabs after seeing the trick jews and Christians did to their people and what kind of effect it had and then they took the story some literally. (Did you know Waterwillow that the half of Christians in those times didn’t believe the godly nature of Jesus? )This is why arabs thought Jesus was just a prophet. Christians themselfes believed that. It was just a matter of where you lived as it still is today. Religion is culture and place bound. Now tell me why this God should be fair when he made it to be like this? How can He blame his creation while he is the one who created it including evil. I believe in a creator who created us and everything there is, not in a created creator like the God of religion.
Ignorance created God. Didn’t you all notice that God actually doesn’t explain anything? Where did we come from? Oh God made us. What’s the reason of living? Oh serving God/Allah. How did all this come to existence? God/Allah etc. I prefer science to show us how life works. In a short period of time science has proved so many things and will prove many things. If you’re rational and fair to yourself and to the world, then it is easy to see religion is fiction, but it has it’s uses.
When opinions are told as if it were facts, it gets boring to those who know the facts. We do know the fact of the bible being symbolically. This means the real story behind it is far more different than the believers think.
Humans are created in His image? I believe it’s the other way around. God is created in man’s image. This is why he is a male; gets angry and jealous, wants to be worshipped, needs his creation to help Him out, powerless to stop evil it seems etc etc. It’s a kind of monarch/king/emperor.
Stephen Hawking: His latest discovery in his latest book he sais: God didn’t create the universe and what’s in it. According to him, the laws made this possible. He is not saying God doesn’t exist or who made this laws. I agree with him totally.
Most posters on IW know the word of God is not the word of God.
Cheerz to all.
There is no need to be angry, sad or whatever. The point several posters make is this: Ofcourse it’s ok to believe what you believe. But denying reality is not right. It is reality that religion is not proved yet and probably it never will (if it will, it is no religion anymore but science and not believing but knowing). Religion is talking about the things we’ll never know for sure (that’s why it works on simple minds). No matter how a believer twist and curves, science showed us that religion cannot be the truth (maybe only spiritual). Didn’t you notice the lies believers (Christians) say like: the bible is consistent and the word of God or Muslims about quran: the quran is the litteraly word of God/Allah and it is never been altered. To me it is obvious they both lie. We already know the (holy) books had a meaning. The quran is not from God/Allah but invented by arabs after seeing the trick jews and Christians did to their people and what kind of effect it had and then they took the story some literally. (Did you know Waterwillow that the half of Christians in those times didn’t believe the godly nature of Jesus? )This is why arabs thought Jesus was just a prophet. Christians themselfes believed that. It was just a matter of where you lived as it still is today. Religion is culture and place bound. Now tell me why this God should be fair when he made it to be like this? How can He blame his creation while he is the one who created it including evil. I believe in a creator who created us and everything there is, not in a created creator like the God of religion.
Ignorance created God. Didn’t you all notice that God actually doesn’t explain anything? Where did we come from? Oh God made us. What’s the reason of living? Oh serving God/Allah. How did all this come to existence? God/Allah etc. I prefer science to show us how life works. In a short period of time science has proved so many things and will prove many things. If you’re rational and fair to yourself and to the world, then it is easy to see religion is fiction, but it has it’s uses.
When opinions are told as if it were facts, it gets boring to those who know the facts. We do know the fact of the bible being symbolically. This means the real story behind it is far more different than the believers think.
Humans are created in His image? I believe it’s the other way around. God is created in man’s image. This is why he is a male; gets angry and jealous, wants to be worshipped, needs his creation to help Him out, powerless to stop evil it seems etc etc. It’s a kind of monarch/king/emperor.
Stephen Hawking: His latest discovery in his latest book he sais: God didn’t create the universe and what’s in it. According to him, the laws made this possible. He is not saying God doesn’t exist or who made this laws. I agree with him totally.
Most posters on IW know the word of God is not the word of God.
Cheerz to all.
written by duh_swami , September 06, 2010
Your right, I don't know you but I know what you write...
You are free to post nonsense all you like...But because this is a public forum, be prepared to be challenged...You really do not handle those well...
I did not invent or imagine that you come off as 'holier than though', it is your own statements that indicate that...
I post a lot of different stuff, so that other posters, Muslims primarily, can see that there are other ways to look at things than the gun barrel visions of Quran...I don't try and tell anyone that 'I know' anything...When I see that from others, I know this person is a charlatan...
My purpose of posting is to expose Islam for the benefit of Muslims...not to try and tell others how wonderful I am, and all my swell religious accomplishments...and how much more I 'Know' than they do...
And you are right, these are only my opinions, but in this case, they are based on something observable...
You are free to post nonsense all you like...But because this is a public forum, be prepared to be challenged...You really do not handle those well...
I did not invent or imagine that you come off as 'holier than though', it is your own statements that indicate that...
I post a lot of different stuff, so that other posters, Muslims primarily, can see that there are other ways to look at things than the gun barrel visions of Quran...I don't try and tell anyone that 'I know' anything...When I see that from others, I know this person is a charlatan...
My purpose of posting is to expose Islam for the benefit of Muslims...not to try and tell others how wonderful I am, and all my swell religious accomplishments...and how much more I 'Know' than they do...
And you are right, these are only my opinions, but in this case, they are based on something observable...
written by duh_swami , September 06, 2010
I know this person is a charlatan...
That should read, suspect that the person is a charlatan...
That should read, suspect that the person is a charlatan...
written by duh_swami , September 06, 2010
Your post made perfectly good sense to me...
I don't mind people who have a spiritual disposition, but I'm not too happy with organized religions, and their books, which I also find faulty...The real answer is locked in the human mind...Science knows that we only use a portion of our minds actual capacity...Religions have a tendency to keep it that way, with a few exceptions...Christianity and Islam are not the exceptions...Christianity is not as rigid as Islam, but it is a limitation on any kind of real higher consciousness...
I don't mind people who have a spiritual disposition, but I'm not too happy with organized religions, and their books, which I also find faulty...The real answer is locked in the human mind...Science knows that we only use a portion of our minds actual capacity...Religions have a tendency to keep it that way, with a few exceptions...Christianity and Islam are not the exceptions...Christianity is not as rigid as Islam, but it is a limitation on any kind of real higher consciousness...
written by duh_swami , September 06, 2010
I just came across this...good question...
"Which is more likely -- that a man should be used as a transmitter by God to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be, ordered by God to do so?"
David Hume 1711 - 1776
"Which is more likely -- that a man should be used as a transmitter by God to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be, ordered by God to do so?"
David Hume 1711 - 1776
written by waterwillows , September 06, 2010
machmoed,
It is not me who is in denial of reality. I tell it simple, honest and straight up. How you perceive my words is left to you.
The science community is a very, very, small group of people, similar to the small group of clebs, who enjoy the leftist media coverage.
The believer's community is immense and world wide. There is no media coverage from the left to make this happen. It happens simply because people have taken the time to find out the real facts.
Do not suppose that the words of a tiny group, who willingly admit that they know nothing of this, have any significance to the millions who know better. We have enough sense to take them at their word when they tell us they do not know what we know.
It is not a question of "blame" with the Most High. That is what men will do to others. It is a question of learning from our errors and developing the important ability of accepting the consquences of choice.
Once we accept that, it is truly amazing how our choices improve to a beneficial level surpassing anything we expected.
I will say it again. Nothing in the Scriptures is for the benefit of the Lord. He does not need it. The benefit is for ourselves, who do need it.
Therefore free choice is given. There can be no True Kinship as Sons and Daughters of the Most High without free choice and that is a major flaw in Islam. Because Islam will force and impose its will on the people, allowing no choice at all, they have cut the people off from any Kinship. In this Islam is 100% a terrorist organization and the people are backward, ignorant and not just materially impoverished, but more importantally, spiritually deprived.
Do not waste your time telling me that this scratching is the dust is all the reality there is. It is your choice to find out the facts.
And if you take the time to think about it.....what have you got to lose?
It is not me who is in denial of reality. I tell it simple, honest and straight up. How you perceive my words is left to you.
The science community is a very, very, small group of people, similar to the small group of clebs, who enjoy the leftist media coverage.
The believer's community is immense and world wide. There is no media coverage from the left to make this happen. It happens simply because people have taken the time to find out the real facts.
Do not suppose that the words of a tiny group, who willingly admit that they know nothing of this, have any significance to the millions who know better. We have enough sense to take them at their word when they tell us they do not know what we know.
It is not a question of "blame" with the Most High. That is what men will do to others. It is a question of learning from our errors and developing the important ability of accepting the consquences of choice.
Once we accept that, it is truly amazing how our choices improve to a beneficial level surpassing anything we expected.
I will say it again. Nothing in the Scriptures is for the benefit of the Lord. He does not need it. The benefit is for ourselves, who do need it.
Therefore free choice is given. There can be no True Kinship as Sons and Daughters of the Most High without free choice and that is a major flaw in Islam. Because Islam will force and impose its will on the people, allowing no choice at all, they have cut the people off from any Kinship. In this Islam is 100% a terrorist organization and the people are backward, ignorant and not just materially impoverished, but more importantally, spiritually deprived.
Do not waste your time telling me that this scratching is the dust is all the reality there is. It is your choice to find out the facts.
And if you take the time to think about it.....what have you got to lose?
written by Archpagan , September 06, 2010
Obviously the second is correct, because, the first one presupposes existence of God. Am I right?
written by Archpagan , September 06, 2010
Sir, a blogger, I believe, should be objective and avoid showing his/her biases at all cost. I try to follow such principle. Whether I am successful or not is to be decided by my fellow bloggers.
I am sorry to say that you seem to have deviated from such principle very often. Sometimes, you indulge in scribbling hyperbole that find difficult to get at, English being only my third language. You have not scored any point when you wrote to duh_swami ' If you find yourself annoyed by my blogging, don't read my posts'. You have just betrayed your arrogance.
Please bear in mind this is not an Evangelical site ; it is frequented by people across the globe with different religious an cultural background. I like this site only for its multinational multicultural visitors.
I am sorry to say that you seem to have deviated from such principle very often. Sometimes, you indulge in scribbling hyperbole that find difficult to get at, English being only my third language. You have not scored any point when you wrote to duh_swami ' If you find yourself annoyed by my blogging, don't read my posts'. You have just betrayed your arrogance.
Please bear in mind this is not an Evangelical site ; it is frequented by people across the globe with different religious an cultural background. I like this site only for its multinational multicultural visitors.
written by Machmoed , September 08, 2010
I'm sorry i didn't reply sooner but as you have noticed i was dealing with some irrationals!
"Which is more likely -- that a man should be used as a transmitter by God to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be, ordered by God to do so?"
Obviously the second one. There are plenty of those in Mental hospitals i believe. A religionist however deffinately would believe the first one is more likely, i mean he would say the first one is a FACT!
"Which is more likely -- that a man should be used as a transmitter by God to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be, ordered by God to do so?"
Obviously the second one. There are plenty of those in Mental hospitals i believe. A religionist however deffinately would believe the first one is more likely, i mean he would say the first one is a FACT!
written by adhi , September 10, 2010
Iam indonesian, indonesia is biggest country with moslem citizen. However the constitution is designed by the founding fathers as not-based on Sharia but based on our indigenous values and way of life. The National foundation is Pancasila that tolerate to all of any religions and ethnics. That's why there is not 'formal' (by the law) any religion discrimination. That's why there is no horrible law such as discrimination, head/hand cut/mutilation etc.
However, some extreme-moslems are making more difficulties within our tolerance relationship. The Arab-based wahabi movement spreading out through the secular campuses, high schools and some political partys (especially Parta Keadilan Sejahtera-PKS), and non governmental organization like FPI, HTI etc.. They push to promote the implementation Sharia to public law. National constitution is seem to be tolerance, however, parts of sharia law has been implemented within some provinces by wahabian politicians. Wait and see, Indonesia will be still tolerant or the sharia will destruct the foundation of this country and our way of life..in the future
However, some extreme-moslems are making more difficulties within our tolerance relationship. The Arab-based wahabi movement spreading out through the secular campuses, high schools and some political partys (especially Parta Keadilan Sejahtera-PKS), and non governmental organization like FPI, HTI etc.. They push to promote the implementation Sharia to public law. National constitution is seem to be tolerance, however, parts of sharia law has been implemented within some provinces by wahabian politicians. Wait and see, Indonesia will be still tolerant or the sharia will destruct the foundation of this country and our way of life..in the future
written by luk , September 13, 2010
You are right to say there is a conflict between "tolerance" and "Sharia." Also that the extreme Muslims "are making more difficulties within our tolerance relationship." (I would say that they are choosing to abuse the tolerance)
The problem arises because those who believe in Sharia, (extreme or not) believe that to be tolerant is to be weak, therefor those who believe in weakness are seen as open prey for those who wish to take advantage of the situation. This gets back to the Islamic justification of "Taqiyya." and how it ties to the struggle between honour and shame in the Muslim society.
To the Sharia advocating Muslim, Taquyya is a perfectly acceptable method of dealing with a non-Muslim, and is considered as honorable because it promotes Islam. Where as in a society whose laws are directed towards tolerance the idea of lying or purposeful deception is considered as wrong, thus in lays the friction between the two.
Simplistic explanation: The tolerant society views the “other person” and his beliefs as valuable. The proponent of Sharia sees only his own beliefs as having value. Thus the two can not peaceably exist in the same space. May Alah, God or whoever you believe to be the creator of all watch over you and protect you. Keep searching for the truth and he will guide you.
The problem arises because those who believe in Sharia, (extreme or not) believe that to be tolerant is to be weak, therefor those who believe in weakness are seen as open prey for those who wish to take advantage of the situation. This gets back to the Islamic justification of "Taqiyya." and how it ties to the struggle between honour and shame in the Muslim society.
To the Sharia advocating Muslim, Taquyya is a perfectly acceptable method of dealing with a non-Muslim, and is considered as honorable because it promotes Islam. Where as in a society whose laws are directed towards tolerance the idea of lying or purposeful deception is considered as wrong, thus in lays the friction between the two.
Simplistic explanation: The tolerant society views the “other person” and his beliefs as valuable. The proponent of Sharia sees only his own beliefs as having value. Thus the two can not peaceably exist in the same space. May Alah, God or whoever you believe to be the creator of all watch over you and protect you. Keep searching for the truth and he will guide you.
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