Cerebrum123, one of our readers, wrote the following comment, directed at me, on the question of God's existence and his punishments in the afterlife, as projected by monotheistic creeds:
You are an atheist; am I right? The question is: can you be 100% sure that there is no life after death, and no punishment for those, who have rejected their Creator?
I am glad you are out of Islam and this site has been a great resource for me, but can you be certain that the path you have chosen is the truth?
I have been through a lot, and seen things that cannot be explained by science, and personally experienced God in my life, and I would like others to have this kind of relationship with God as well. This is why I'm asking you a couple of questions. You can just ignore them if you want to, but I am personally curious.
- Are you 100% certain there is no God?
- Are you absolutely certain there is no afterlife?
- Are you absolutely certain that there will be no form of judgement in such an afterlife?
- Do you see Christianity as basically the same thing as Islam without the orders to kill unbelievers?
Again I'm just curious. I've always been a curious person. I think understanding someone else's worldview helps me understand the person.
These questions have been debated and discussed too many times in various forums in recent years. Christopher Hitchens is probably the best and more eloquent person to answer them most convincingly (you may refer to some of his debates on youtube). And my understanding of these questions and answers would not be different from his.
To the question of the existence of God, there is no evidence whatsoever that He/She does exist. There might be a Creator, but we have no way of knowing that. Many people claim, as you have done, that they have experienced God. But what those experiences are! If you can experience God, then I should be able to experience Her/Him too. The only thing is: I may not have the methodology of experiencing Her/Him. But if you teach me your methodology, then I and every human being will, ideally, be able to experience God in the same way you do. That's how science works. If your methodology of experiencing God does not work for others -- then what you claim to have experienced about God is questionable; it's probably a delusion, like that of many frauds who claim to communicate with ghosts and spirits simply to cheat gullible people. Your experience should be reproducible, at least, by the majority of your likes, but a delusion may not be.
To the question of punishments after death, as most monotheistic creeds propagate (some polytheistic creeds have picked up the idea in more recent times), this is even more ludicrous. On what grounds would God punish us in the afterlife? And why God decided to do so only over the past 3-4 thousands of years ago, when modern humans have existed on earth for no less than 100,000 years. Before punitive monotheism made its mark about 3.5 thousand years ago, there were many Gods and religions -- but there was no concept of afterlife punishments in them. Even in the Jewish scripture, we don't see a solid foundation of the modern idea of heaven and hell, and punishments in the latter. If I'm not wrong, the idea of punishments in hell after death, as we understand today, was first conceptualized in the Zoroastrian Scripture. Other religions, certainly Islam, have borrowed it from there.
The idea of punishments in afterlife turns even more ridiculous when considered its modus operandi. If my father punishes me, he must set certain clear-cut conditions beforehand and warn me not to violate them. Only after that, if I violate those rules, he can claim justification of some sorts to punish me. But for me, the responsibility of a child's failure to heed father's advice/warnings also falls, to good extent, on the father because of his failure to inculcate proper values and teachings in the child. Nonetheless, the father is punishing his child with proper accountability, i.e. with setting a guideline of behaviour and warning the child about its violation beforehand. The same standard applies to authorities. Police punish criminals only after the latter have been informed of not violating certain rules or committing certain crimes clearly and beforehand. And in punishments by a father or authorities, they generally show good degree of decency -- limited punishments for limited crimes or punishments commensurate with crimes/faults. That's the greatest hallmark of civilized societies and conscience.
Now turn to God's punishments: He/She, my Creator, never informed me what I can do, should do, and what I should not. Of course, He/She is claimed to have talked in intimate privacy of a few, ages ago, but there is no way for me or others to know that those alleged prophet's really talked to God. And human history has witnessed hundreds of thousands of prophets. Most powerful religions that existed 4,000 years ago are dead today. Most, if not all, of the powerful religions of today will experience the same fate 2000, 5000 or 10000 years later. And, most likely, others -- suiting the ideas and understanding of the world in those times -- will take their place. The points I want to make is that:
- There is no way to know whether the alleged prophets -- Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Joseph Smith -- ever truly talked to God, even if He/She exists. If God wants to punish us for certain actions, He/She must warn us about it in terms convincing to all of us, just like the fore-warnings that comes from our parents or authorities. Indeed, God's fore-warnings is expected to be more explicit, convincing and lasting.
- God, after a while, allow us to commit things, even opposite things, that He/She had made capital punishments before (i.e., many teachings of the Old and New Testaments are conflicting). In other words, God wants us killed for certain actions of ours today, but will let us go scot-free for committing the same a few thousand years later.
- What God(s) told us to follow 4000 years ago are a laughing-stock today, and what the God's of our time tell us to follow will, surely, be laughing-stocks for our future generations, who will come 5,000 year from now (Hasn't many teachings of Jesus are being mocked already, less we talk about those of Moses?).
- God asked the Hebrews, a tiny part of humanity, to kill the adulterers by stoning some 3300 years ago, which he has even nullified already some 2000 years ago, but a big part of humanity probably still do not know about it. We humans are the same, and should deserve the same punishments for the same crime in God's eyes. But God is, ideally, killing the Hebrews for adultery for the last 3300 years, but letting a large part of humanity go scot-free for the same crime even today.
While this discussion can go on and on, let me conclude that we deserve much greater accountability and justification from the all-knowing and all-just God, if He/She wants to punish us for our actions. And He/She has certainly not set a solidly justified ground, not as yet, for punishing us in afterlife, even if there is one. If we compare the grounds human agencies -- such as parents or governments -- use for punishing us for certain actions of ours, God's ground for punishing us in a perceived afterlife is ludicrous. And the kinds of God's punishments in afterlife the religious people invoke make the agency of God not only ludicrous, but also make Him/Her immeasurably barbaric. A father or government punishes not only with proper forewarning but also in a limited measure, but God punishes infinitesimally and in the most barbaric manner (like burning alive for eternity) for a limited, often a petty crime, and even for non-crimes.
That being the truth about the idea of God's punishments in afterlife, I -- call me atheist or whatever -- refuse to bow to a barbaric God as believers present Him/Her to be, just like I will refuse to bow to my unjust father or government, and will embrace death in protest. He/She doesn't deserve my respect, neither of any other decent human being with civilized conscience.
If there is a God, it is He/She, Who has created us with the instincts and capability of doing good as well as bad. He/She can't punish us for the actions He/She has made us capable of committing.
Set as favorite
Bookmark
Email this
Hits: 4664
Comments (282)
Subscribe to this comment's feed
written by OOPS , August 10, 2011
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...erges.html
written by Chanakya , August 10, 2011
Mr Khan, many thanks for elaborating your points. I have long studied morality and also emergent system. it always fascinates me that the concept of justice or judgement, which implies knowledge, seems to have been stuck in a poorly reasoned philosophical construct of 2000 years ago.
Also from a moral point of view lets do a thought experiment. In India in the northern city of Amritsar exist a house for the children suffering polio (children given up). The "Pinglewara" ashram as it is called is run by a committee of hindu sadhus. The sadhus pledge their lifes to serve, protect and support the kids.
I have asked this question of Christians and Muslims and they have said the sadhus will still go to hell? according to muslims Mother Teresa will also go to hell.
Offcourse the above outcome is only possible if one concedes that religion has nothing to do with god ie if god exists in the first place.
Also from a moral point of view lets do a thought experiment. In India in the northern city of Amritsar exist a house for the children suffering polio (children given up). The "Pinglewara" ashram as it is called is run by a committee of hindu sadhus. The sadhus pledge their lifes to serve, protect and support the kids.
I have asked this question of Christians and Muslims and they have said the sadhus will still go to hell? according to muslims Mother Teresa will also go to hell.
Offcourse the above outcome is only possible if one concedes that religion has nothing to do with god ie if god exists in the first place.
written by Machmoed , August 10, 2011
These are some quotes of Einstein about God
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of Nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.
(Albert Einstein, 1936, The Human Side. Responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray.)
A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
(Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930)
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature. (Albert Einstein, The World as I See It)
I agree with this totally!
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of Nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.
(Albert Einstein, 1936, The Human Side. Responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray.)
A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
(Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930)
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature. (Albert Einstein, The World as I See It)
I agree with this totally!
written by duh_swami , August 10, 2011
It is punishment enough that all life suffers the entire life...Every living thing, humans included, are inflicted with physical and mental pain from infant to old age...That God, or Allah, would threaten further punishment in some nightmarish after life, just proves the depraved and fiendish nature of the god people are worshipping...But is it really that, or is it a delusion created by power/money hungry priestly types, who were intent on feathering their own nests?
No one was ever tricked into heaven, but they have been tricked into religion by the clever. The method is guilt and fear...God/Allah is presented as a big guy in the sky who is going to punish you for disobedience. 'Punishment' instills fear, disobedience (sin) instills guilt...This is a 'device' used by the clever, to convince you that you need their help, in appeasing this raving god...
Every priestly type of every religion is profiting from your fear and guilt...The punishment, if it is punishment, is in living life, this prompted Buddha to say, 'All life is sorrow'...
This should lead to living your life intelligently...
The more intelligence, the less sorrow, but there is no way to escape it all...If you let religions who support the sin+ guilt= punishment by god idea, run your life for you, expect more sorrow and guilt...That is the truth...Knowing the truth sets you free from the truth...
No one was ever tricked into heaven, but they have been tricked into religion by the clever. The method is guilt and fear...God/Allah is presented as a big guy in the sky who is going to punish you for disobedience. 'Punishment' instills fear, disobedience (sin) instills guilt...This is a 'device' used by the clever, to convince you that you need their help, in appeasing this raving god...
Every priestly type of every religion is profiting from your fear and guilt...The punishment, if it is punishment, is in living life, this prompted Buddha to say, 'All life is sorrow'...
This should lead to living your life intelligently...
The more intelligence, the less sorrow, but there is no way to escape it all...If you let religions who support the sin+ guilt= punishment by god idea, run your life for you, expect more sorrow and guilt...That is the truth...Knowing the truth sets you free from the truth...
written by Amboyduke , August 10, 2011
The Bible does say the following about God: I will paraphrase...
-"God, who can know him, how unsearchable are his ways".
Good point...if there is a God...and He/She has designed and created the
universe, how can little old Man comprehend such an amazing, awesome
realm??? I live in a very isolated area compared to most people, and every
time I look up at a clear night sky and see that black void filled with those
gazillion stars and realize that many of them that are visible to me on earth
are no longer in existence due to the fact that their light has been travelling
for so long in time that the source may well be long burned out...even that
little fact is mind boggling...even though I do understand the physics.
-The Bible says that "the gift of God is eternal life, but the wages of sin is
death"...John 3:16 I think is the scripture...but here's the paradox for me...
If there is an afterlife (based on the Biblical version), and God grants you
eternal life in paradise, and that life is a "gift"...but there are others who fall
short of God's grace and are consciously suffering eternal damnation or
punishment...
would also have to be ALIVE...???
That doesn't fit.
-It also doesn't fit that punishment would be meted out to some of the worlds's most cruel despots and hideous human beings, but the same eternal fire, or whatever would be given to some poor old soul who JUST missed the cut...????
If God is a just God...there is no "justice" in that....and purgatory is a totally spurious Catholic invention to raise $$$$...so that doesn't count.
-It also seems totally wierd that a human lives on this planet from infancy till old age, and relative to "eternity", it is a ridiculously short life for such an eternity
of cruel punishment in a fiery torment.
I am of the personal belief that there MAY or MAY NOT be some afterlife reward..
BUT...if you DON'T qualify for that reward, you wouldn't be punished other than
eternal sleep...or non-existence...???
-And finally, Cerebrum 123...(and here I go again...LOL)
NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING 100%...not you, or our good moderator Mr. Khan, the scholar duh_swami, the great buana, Machmoed, archpagan, Malem, the Pope, (although that guy MIGHT have some inside information he ain't sharing...?)...or anyone else on here or anywhere....
Faith or no faith...not one single one of us REALLY and TRULY know for a CERTAINTY what the hell lies beyond...we can only hope...and even the Bible says that is the one thing we CAN count on is hope...
-"God, who can know him, how unsearchable are his ways".
Good point...if there is a God...and He/She has designed and created the
universe, how can little old Man comprehend such an amazing, awesome
realm??? I live in a very isolated area compared to most people, and every
time I look up at a clear night sky and see that black void filled with those
gazillion stars and realize that many of them that are visible to me on earth
are no longer in existence due to the fact that their light has been travelling
for so long in time that the source may well be long burned out...even that
little fact is mind boggling...even though I do understand the physics.
-The Bible says that "the gift of God is eternal life, but the wages of sin is
death"...John 3:16 I think is the scripture...but here's the paradox for me...
If there is an afterlife (based on the Biblical version), and God grants you
eternal life in paradise, and that life is a "gift"...but there are others who fall
short of God's grace and are consciously suffering eternal damnation or
punishment...
would also have to be ALIVE...???
That doesn't fit.
-It also doesn't fit that punishment would be meted out to some of the worlds's most cruel despots and hideous human beings, but the same eternal fire, or whatever would be given to some poor old soul who JUST missed the cut...????
If God is a just God...there is no "justice" in that....and purgatory is a totally spurious Catholic invention to raise $$$$...so that doesn't count.
-It also seems totally wierd that a human lives on this planet from infancy till old age, and relative to "eternity", it is a ridiculously short life for such an eternity
of cruel punishment in a fiery torment.
I am of the personal belief that there MAY or MAY NOT be some afterlife reward..
BUT...if you DON'T qualify for that reward, you wouldn't be punished other than
eternal sleep...or non-existence...???
-And finally, Cerebrum 123...(and here I go again...LOL)
NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING 100%...not you, or our good moderator Mr. Khan, the scholar duh_swami, the great buana, Machmoed, archpagan, Malem, the Pope, (although that guy MIGHT have some inside information he ain't sharing...?)...or anyone else on here or anywhere....
Faith or no faith...not one single one of us REALLY and TRULY know for a CERTAINTY what the hell lies beyond...we can only hope...and even the Bible says that is the one thing we CAN count on is hope...
written by dead or alive , August 10, 2011
I swear there aint no heaven but,pray there aint no hell.
written by RK , August 10, 2011
Well said MA Khan. A befitting reply. Most people who say they believe in God face cognitive dissonace. Cognitive dissonance is the internal state of conflict (disturbance) that arises when two opposing paradigms or beliefs collide in your consciousness.
When conversations carry a religious context, people reserve utmost reverence to the entity called God and they say they believe in God.
But you take them out of a religious context and see how they lead the rest of their life. You will notice that “God’s will” does not enter the equation. They are all about making efforts with a specific goal in mind.
For example, a person will rush his injured child to an emergency room in the event of an accident. If he left the child at God’s mercy, the child might die and this is *precisely* the parent will strive to avert such an outcome.
In all honesty people agree with the evidence of the scientists. And so you start to examine your idea of God. You can see and sense how your 'need' for God is largely based on fear. You are frightened of being alone, frightened of meaninglessness, frightened of the apparent sterility of a world with no 'Godness' in it.
source-Almost nobody truly believes in God!
When conversations carry a religious context, people reserve utmost reverence to the entity called God and they say they believe in God.
But you take them out of a religious context and see how they lead the rest of their life. You will notice that “God’s will” does not enter the equation. They are all about making efforts with a specific goal in mind.
For example, a person will rush his injured child to an emergency room in the event of an accident. If he left the child at God’s mercy, the child might die and this is *precisely* the parent will strive to avert such an outcome.
In all honesty people agree with the evidence of the scientists. And so you start to examine your idea of God. You can see and sense how your 'need' for God is largely based on fear. You are frightened of being alone, frightened of meaninglessness, frightened of the apparent sterility of a world with no 'Godness' in it.
source-Almost nobody truly believes in God!
written by Cerebrum123 , August 10, 2011
First off you said that in order for God to be able to punish us justly He would have needed to give us a standard of behavior to follow ,and then we would need to deviate from it. God has done this. In a few ways actually ,one of them is known as a conscience ,another is His Word ,also known as the Bible. Also our original ancestors Adam ,and Eve (who lived about 6,000 years ago not 100,000 years) were only given one simple rule ,don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They broke this simple commandment ,and as punishment death was brought into the world ,but not just physical death a spiritual one as well. A complete separation from God.People continue in sin to this day. Now I know you're going to go off on how the earth can't possibly be that young ,but there a few things you should know before you go down that road. First radiocarbon dating methods run on several unproven assumptions 1 rate of radioactive decay has been and always will be the same. 2 The tested item began with a certain amount of parent and daughter elements 3 none of the parent and daughter elements have been added or removed. These unproven assumptions lead to highly inaccurate dates on even things that we know how old they are ,how can they possibly be trusted on things we don't know the age of? Yes after Jesus came some things were changed in a way that shows God's mercy. The purpose of the OT laws was to keep Israel distinct and holy as compared to the other nations of the earth. They were just as unable to keep these laws as any of their neighbors. God made laws and we have all broken them. James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Christianity isn't about religion and it's not about threats of hell ,it's about a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Christianity isn't about religion and it's not about threats of hell ,it's about a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
written by duh_swami , August 10, 2011
After numerous posts about the age of the world you are still tooting the same horn...Have you convinced one person who posts here that modern science is wrong, wrong, wrong, and 'none' of their tools are reliable? Your wishful thinking really does not hold up...
written by Cerebrum123 , August 10, 2011
All of the radiocarbon dating methods rely on the assumptions listed above ,and they are unproven. These methods of dating are completely unreliable since they begin with faulty assumptions. The issue with the age of the earth starts with one's presuppositions. You can verify for yourself that these are the assumptions that drive radiocarbon dating. I tried to give you a link to a site that shows all of this in more detail ,but you rejected it out of hand.You shouldn't be judging someone's arguments on their presuppositions ,but on the merit of the argument. You have shown that you are unwilling to do this. This is called intellectual dishonesty. I look at both sides of the argument. I earlier showed you how all of the geologic processes said to take millions of years to happen can indeed happen much quicker under the right circumstances. Have you studied what's involved in radiocarbon dating? Stalactites ,canyons ,and other geological processes can happen very quickly. I gave you links to the independent evidence of these processes happening quickly such as the Jenolan Caves bottle stalagmite ,and Burlingame Canyon (which was formed in six days of flood waters btw) ,but you still wouldn't even try to verify if what I said was true or false. You just attacked me and called a supremacist ,egotistical ,bigot ,and an idiot.If you are unwilling to look at the evidence ,and give an alternate argument for these happenings than you can't claim that I am going against "science". The things I referenced happened ,and they happened very fast. Ho can you say that something like a global flood couldn't do even more amazing things even faster?That was the point I tried to make earlier ,but you evaded everything I said ,and hurled insults. Something that someone who has no argument resorts to. Show me where I'm wrong on these things. If I'm wrong you should easily be able to show me where I'm wrong ,right? I brought a valid argument ,and you dismissed it or threw out red herrings. You never refuted anything I said in my earlier posts , with the exception of the meaning of the word manuscript. Carbon 14 dating has a theoretical maximum of around 95,000 years IF the assumptions running the system are valid. When you consider our current technological limitations the maximum becomes even less. Diamonds the hardest substance on earth have been found to contain carbon 14 even though they are supposedly billions of years old. This is an impossibility if they truly were that old. Since you are unwilling to even look at the sites I gave you earlier use google or something similar to check out what I have said here.
written by duh_swami , August 10, 2011
Yawn ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Same old song ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
written by Chanakya , August 10, 2011
Your answering in genesis site is fraud and does not list a single paper that has any objective verifiable proof of anything to do with the science!
Please kindly refrain from your young earth creationism. The fact that there are religions older than your idiotic Adam and eve story (Jainism for one and Hinduism for 2) just goes to show your supremacist attitude.
Hindus claim first biological life form (Brahma) to be over 4 billion years old.
I am not even a Hindu but at least Hindus are consistent with universal timelines.
Jains on the other hand do not even require the existence of so called god. Unlike your silly religion of Bronze Age tribals they have fully developed morality, no wars ever, and no known acts of violence ever and they are over 5000 years older than the gibberish you believe in.
Your silly childlike ignorance might work in the Christian world but to anybody in the East you sound positively ignorant, racist and supremacist i.e. no different from a Jihadist.
I am sorry to say you are a Jihadist but without a gun! Instead of killing someone physically you are engaged in killing people’s intellect.
I am afraid and sorry that you are delusional.
Thank you.
Please kindly refrain from your young earth creationism. The fact that there are religions older than your idiotic Adam and eve story (Jainism for one and Hinduism for 2) just goes to show your supremacist attitude.
Hindus claim first biological life form (Brahma) to be over 4 billion years old.
I am not even a Hindu but at least Hindus are consistent with universal timelines.
Jains on the other hand do not even require the existence of so called god. Unlike your silly religion of Bronze Age tribals they have fully developed morality, no wars ever, and no known acts of violence ever and they are over 5000 years older than the gibberish you believe in.
Your silly childlike ignorance might work in the Christian world but to anybody in the East you sound positively ignorant, racist and supremacist i.e. no different from a Jihadist.
I am sorry to say you are a Jihadist but without a gun! Instead of killing someone physically you are engaged in killing people’s intellect.
I am afraid and sorry that you are delusional.
Thank you.
written by Amboyduke , August 10, 2011
Just a thought...
The very first verse of Genesis states as follows:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Am I right about this verse? I believe so.
Here's my point. Take that verse.
There is no time line in that verse, other than the statement "in the beginning". Right?
I do not agree with the "young earth creationism" theory...
However...
If you take that verse: Genesis 1:1, it says "in the beginning", BUT, it doesn't state WHEN that "beginning" was.
The beginning could easily be 4, 5, 6, or 100 billion years ago...could it not?
If science is right, and the earth IS 4 billion years old, the Bible does not in any way contradict that if you look at Genesis 1:1 as quoted.
And since the "earth proved to be void", it could have been in that state for billions of years...void...until life started forming...whether that "life" was by evolution, creation or ortho-genesis...
I personally don't know as I wasn't there.
But that first verse of Genesis allows for a Biblical believer to accept the earth as billions of years old because there is no time line qualifier in that verse.
Does this not make sense?
The very first verse of Genesis states as follows:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Am I right about this verse? I believe so.
Here's my point. Take that verse.
There is no time line in that verse, other than the statement "in the beginning". Right?
I do not agree with the "young earth creationism" theory...
However...
If you take that verse: Genesis 1:1, it says "in the beginning", BUT, it doesn't state WHEN that "beginning" was.
The beginning could easily be 4, 5, 6, or 100 billion years ago...could it not?
If science is right, and the earth IS 4 billion years old, the Bible does not in any way contradict that if you look at Genesis 1:1 as quoted.
And since the "earth proved to be void", it could have been in that state for billions of years...void...until life started forming...whether that "life" was by evolution, creation or ortho-genesis...
I personally don't know as I wasn't there.
But that first verse of Genesis allows for a Biblical believer to accept the earth as billions of years old because there is no time line qualifier in that verse.
Does this not make sense?
written by Mozlem , August 10, 2011
•
Allah is the creator of all things, including our actions.
•Belief in Allah’s power, knowledge and control of all things is one of the six articles of faith in Islam. This is called Qadar, loosely translated as Divine Destiny.
•A person has the freedom, the choice, to do as he/she wants.
•We have no control over the outcome of those choices.
•The outcome of these choices is our destiny. Only Allah knows what this destiny is.
If destiny is predetermined by Allah such that his beings are already ordained to be thives (so their hands can be cut) apart from the thugh such as Mo and his merry men. Rapist to bar Mo again. Adultrators and any other criminal act Allah will punish them anyway. So whats the point of even doing conciously any good deeds or bad . I think Middle Easterns understand this very well therfore they are most corrupt, run dictatorshihps, opress their citizens, ill treat servants and maids including their own women folk.
Punishment or non no Punishment is already predetrmined.
How is it possible in the first place as it doesnt add up. It is self contradictory.
Allah is the creator of all things, including our actions.
•Belief in Allah’s power, knowledge and control of all things is one of the six articles of faith in Islam. This is called Qadar, loosely translated as Divine Destiny.
•A person has the freedom, the choice, to do as he/she wants.
•We have no control over the outcome of those choices.
•The outcome of these choices is our destiny. Only Allah knows what this destiny is.
If destiny is predetermined by Allah such that his beings are already ordained to be thives (so their hands can be cut) apart from the thugh such as Mo and his merry men. Rapist to bar Mo again. Adultrators and any other criminal act Allah will punish them anyway. So whats the point of even doing conciously any good deeds or bad . I think Middle Easterns understand this very well therfore they are most corrupt, run dictatorshihps, opress their citizens, ill treat servants and maids including their own women folk.
Punishment or non no Punishment is already predetrmined.
How is it possible in the first place as it doesnt add up. It is self contradictory.
written by Chanakya , August 10, 2011
1 rate of radioactive decay has been and always will be the same.
This has been debunked many years ago. Your creation scientist like Austin and Snelling have been routinely proven to be liars who mis represent the actual data. People like you read these scientist and then come and make silly arguments on sites like these. For example if radio decay was faster your scientist cannot account for the missing heat (oh than they say God must have cooled it). Anyhow the presence of nuclear power plants proves without any doubt the decay rate of u235 to PB207. Offcourse if this rate varies over time none of the nuclear reactors will work.
2 The tested item began with a certain amount of parent and daughter elements
Again your pseudo-science is clear you do not understand that it is not the tested item it is the tested mineral. Go and read up on "Concordance" to see how silly you are.
3 none of the parent and daughter elements have been added or removed.
Same as 2. This also is covered under well-known limestone effect studies.
Noah's fairy-tale
IN relation to your fairyland conception of global flood. Independent dendrochronology shows no such flood or global level wet event in the last 9000 years.
Diamond and C14:
Your so called RATE fake study done by Austin and Snelling has been ridiculed even by elementary undergraduate students. [Your heroes of RATE offcourse never tell you believers that they cannot do Isochron Diagram - as it requires skills in lab or that Concordant Data is excluded etc. etc. i can go on and on about this]
Burlingame Canyon
Your complete lack of intellectual vigour in even quoting this nonsense promoted by John Morris (the President of the Institute for
Creation Research in San Diego, California) is shone in light by the fact that in 8th grade mathematics will show you that it will take at least 2.3 Trillion events like Burlingame Canyon to match Grand Canyon. For you again 2.3 trillion!!!
So, Cerebrum123 every bit of garbage you peddle from AiG site, Creation institute studies, RATE studies can be debunked easily as they have been debunked many many times over many many years.
If people here think you are a fool, please understand that you prove it yourself by not even doing basic research outside of the Creation Institute studies or Apologetics Departments.
I have written this not to prove you wrong. That is evident to everyone here BUT to show you that people like DUH_SWAMI do not want to reply to you because nobody with even a Single Digit IQ will write complete and utter rubbish like you do.
So save your YEC crap to your YEC group.
Let’s focus on the dangerous ideology of Islam and Jihad
This has been debunked many years ago. Your creation scientist like Austin and Snelling have been routinely proven to be liars who mis represent the actual data. People like you read these scientist and then come and make silly arguments on sites like these. For example if radio decay was faster your scientist cannot account for the missing heat (oh than they say God must have cooled it). Anyhow the presence of nuclear power plants proves without any doubt the decay rate of u235 to PB207. Offcourse if this rate varies over time none of the nuclear reactors will work.
2 The tested item began with a certain amount of parent and daughter elements
Again your pseudo-science is clear you do not understand that it is not the tested item it is the tested mineral. Go and read up on "Concordance" to see how silly you are.
3 none of the parent and daughter elements have been added or removed.
Same as 2. This also is covered under well-known limestone effect studies.
Noah's fairy-tale
IN relation to your fairyland conception of global flood. Independent dendrochronology shows no such flood or global level wet event in the last 9000 years.
Diamond and C14:
Your so called RATE fake study done by Austin and Snelling has been ridiculed even by elementary undergraduate students. [Your heroes of RATE offcourse never tell you believers that they cannot do Isochron Diagram - as it requires skills in lab or that Concordant Data is excluded etc. etc. i can go on and on about this]
Burlingame Canyon
Your complete lack of intellectual vigour in even quoting this nonsense promoted by John Morris (the President of the Institute for
Creation Research in San Diego, California) is shone in light by the fact that in 8th grade mathematics will show you that it will take at least 2.3 Trillion events like Burlingame Canyon to match Grand Canyon. For you again 2.3 trillion!!!
So, Cerebrum123 every bit of garbage you peddle from AiG site, Creation institute studies, RATE studies can be debunked easily as they have been debunked many many times over many many years.
If people here think you are a fool, please understand that you prove it yourself by not even doing basic research outside of the Creation Institute studies or Apologetics Departments.
I have written this not to prove you wrong. That is evident to everyone here BUT to show you that people like DUH_SWAMI do not want to reply to you because nobody with even a Single Digit IQ will write complete and utter rubbish like you do.
So save your YEC crap to your YEC group.
Let’s focus on the dangerous ideology of Islam and Jihad
written by The Truth Seeker , August 11, 2011
I would like to address my answers to the following questions posted by the curious reader to the curouis reader.
Are you 100% certain there is no God?
Are you absolutely certain there is no afterlife?
Are you absolutely certain that there will be no form of judgement in such an afterlife?
Do you see Christianity as basically the same thing as Islam without the orders to kill unbelievers?
Even though we cannot prove it scientifically with certainty that these claims do not and will not exist, but we can answer it the other way round, that is from the source of these claims and how they are being used and abused. The asnwer to these questions should not be whether these claims are truth or false, rather than whoever made the claims, have they proven to themself that these thing exist before they made the claimed. Basing on the histroy, the people whom made these claims, the intention of the claimant the way the claims are being used to benefit the claimant, lay bare to us that these are just a bunch of lies trying to subjucate and make people to submit to their so called "devine authority". These people who make these claims, with such a certainty had make these claims not worthy of our respect and consideration. The burden should not be lie on the shoulder of believer but rather on the claimant. My own believe is these, whoever are able to speak with certainty that they are the messager of god, the prophet are the biggest lier on earth. They must be able to convince the beleiver we certainty that these things exist but not the other way round.
If god exist, whoever claim that they are messenger or prophet of god, they must prove that they are perfect and every bit of their claims and deeds. One wrong is enough to dsiprove their claims, because they are god not science. As of today, non of them can withstand the test of science to perfection. One simple prove is that everyone of them age and die like all of us. This is enough to prove that all their cliams has been proven false.
As of today, I can make this claim with certainty, since the begining of human and till today, whoever claim that they are god, son of god, messager of god prophet of god, will age and die like I do with 100% certainty. Whoever can disprove me, I will worship him/her as "GOD".
Are you 100% certain there is no God?
Are you absolutely certain there is no afterlife?
Are you absolutely certain that there will be no form of judgement in such an afterlife?
Do you see Christianity as basically the same thing as Islam without the orders to kill unbelievers?
Even though we cannot prove it scientifically with certainty that these claims do not and will not exist, but we can answer it the other way round, that is from the source of these claims and how they are being used and abused. The asnwer to these questions should not be whether these claims are truth or false, rather than whoever made the claims, have they proven to themself that these thing exist before they made the claimed. Basing on the histroy, the people whom made these claims, the intention of the claimant the way the claims are being used to benefit the claimant, lay bare to us that these are just a bunch of lies trying to subjucate and make people to submit to their so called "devine authority". These people who make these claims, with such a certainty had make these claims not worthy of our respect and consideration. The burden should not be lie on the shoulder of believer but rather on the claimant. My own believe is these, whoever are able to speak with certainty that they are the messager of god, the prophet are the biggest lier on earth. They must be able to convince the beleiver we certainty that these things exist but not the other way round.
If god exist, whoever claim that they are messenger or prophet of god, they must prove that they are perfect and every bit of their claims and deeds. One wrong is enough to dsiprove their claims, because they are god not science. As of today, non of them can withstand the test of science to perfection. One simple prove is that everyone of them age and die like all of us. This is enough to prove that all their cliams has been proven false.
As of today, I can make this claim with certainty, since the begining of human and till today, whoever claim that they are god, son of god, messager of god prophet of god, will age and die like I do with 100% certainty. Whoever can disprove me, I will worship him/her as "GOD".
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROON , August 11, 2011
there is only 1 true god and it is the holy menstruating vagina
written by Reed Wilson. , August 11, 2011
Machmoed.
"For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being".
He will not deny it either. Prayers are already granted as we get results on the basis of effort for what we pray.
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death".
If he or she does not agree with reward, the reward will be surprise bonus. Fear is not like fear of poisonous snake or of a tiger attacking, it is warning which help reform and improvement. The Prof. is very meticulous in his expression.
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards .... nature".
Yes he can not conceive. I second you Machmoed.
"For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being".
He will not deny it either. Prayers are already granted as we get results on the basis of effort for what we pray.
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death".
If he or she does not agree with reward, the reward will be surprise bonus. Fear is not like fear of poisonous snake or of a tiger attacking, it is warning which help reform and improvement. The Prof. is very meticulous in his expression.
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards .... nature".
Yes he can not conceive. I second you Machmoed.
written by duh_swami , August 11, 2011
All Islamic prayer is self centered and materialistic...As are all the ritual and practices, like inner struggle jihad, or external fighting jihad...Praising Allah, exalting Allah, believing in Allah has one major direction and focus...Getting into Paradise when the time comes...It is possible for a Muslim to pray to Allah to save another Muslim, maybe a relative, but those are minimal and selfish prayers are maximum...
Only selfless prayers have power, selfish prayers are scorned...
I one knew a devout Christian girl who prayed to God for material objects, like an air conditioner for her car...When I asked her why she did that, she said, 'If I'm really the daughter of God, he has to prove it to me'...Which meant to her, to provide her with stuff...Islamic prayer is not much different...The stuff may be different but the selfish and self centered attitude and belief system is essentially the same...
Only selfless prayers have power, selfish prayers are scorned...
I one knew a devout Christian girl who prayed to God for material objects, like an air conditioner for her car...When I asked her why she did that, she said, 'If I'm really the daughter of God, he has to prove it to me'...Which meant to her, to provide her with stuff...Islamic prayer is not much different...The stuff may be different but the selfish and self centered attitude and belief system is essentially the same...
written by duh_swami , August 11, 2011
I wrote some reality wrenches in prayer theory, but the editor grabbed it for study...That seems to happen a lot...Maybe it will appear, maybe not...
written by duh_swami , August 11, 2011
One simple prove is that everyone of them age and die like all of us.
Hmmm...You're talking about entropy which nothing in manifestation can withstand forever...What are you going to say when science overcomes age and it's defects including death? That's the end of heaven, hell, and reincarnation...Well maybe not end them, there is still the possibility of accidents, but it definitively would end overcrowding...Allah's virgin brothel would probably shut down from lack of clientele...
Comte St Germain was said to have looked no more that 25 even though he was over 100...but supposedly he ate from the philosophers stone and gained a type of immortality...I think he may be alive today...He could be Barack Obama...
So you are right if you are looking at it from a strictly materialistic point of view...From another materialistic point of view, everything in the cosmos is eventually recycled...Scientist Carl Sagan said that we are made of star stuff...If everything in the cosmos is recycled, why would human life be exempt? Or any life? A body can die, but that does not necessarily mean everything died...Of course we only have the testimony of living people to tell us about life after death...Some people claim to converse with the dead, and we know that in the west politically motivated dead people voted for Obama...So maybe there is life after death...
Hmmm...You're talking about entropy which nothing in manifestation can withstand forever...What are you going to say when science overcomes age and it's defects including death? That's the end of heaven, hell, and reincarnation...Well maybe not end them, there is still the possibility of accidents, but it definitively would end overcrowding...Allah's virgin brothel would probably shut down from lack of clientele...
Comte St Germain was said to have looked no more that 25 even though he was over 100...but supposedly he ate from the philosophers stone and gained a type of immortality...I think he may be alive today...He could be Barack Obama...
So you are right if you are looking at it from a strictly materialistic point of view...From another materialistic point of view, everything in the cosmos is eventually recycled...Scientist Carl Sagan said that we are made of star stuff...If everything in the cosmos is recycled, why would human life be exempt? Or any life? A body can die, but that does not necessarily mean everything died...Of course we only have the testimony of living people to tell us about life after death...Some people claim to converse with the dead, and we know that in the west politically motivated dead people voted for Obama...So maybe there is life after death...
written by Common Sense , August 11, 2011
@Harkat Ul Kafiroon,
Bingo you got it.its in the kabba covered in a Burqa.Now who is its one and only prophet.
Bingo you got it.its in the kabba covered in a Burqa.Now who is its one and only prophet.
written by duh_swami , August 11, 2011
And don't forget to kiss the black rock...it's Allah's vagina...
It's menstruation is generations of devout slobber...Yuk...
It's menstruation is generations of devout slobber...Yuk...
written by Cerebrum123 , August 11, 2011
You're correct that the Bible doesn't give an exact date for when the beginning was in so many words ,but if you use the genealogies and go all the way back to Adam and Eve you come up with an approximate number of 6,000 years for our universe.
@ Chanakya
Yes they have done studies of how much radioactive decay there is NOW ,but they do not have the data as to how much radioactive decay was BEFORE recent times. Also you're going to discredit me because I used the word item instead of mineral? Isn't a mineral or a fossil an item? Yes fossils are mineralized tissue ,but one could still call either an item. None of what you have said shows where ,and how I am wrong. As for a global flood the scientists you call "qualified" believe that there may have once been a global flood on Mars where there is virtually NO WATER ,yet the very idea that one could have happened on earth of which the surface is TWO THIRDS WATER ,the very idea is ridiculed. Yes AiG ,and RATE are ridiculed ,but that doesn't make their studies any more or less valid than say Richard Dawkins ,or Albert Einstien. I would like a reference to an ancient document that is more than say 200-300 years old that shows that Hindus really believed this about the age of the earth. You have not refuted any of my points you have only shown your bias. My first statement about radiocarbon dating is very clear about the idea that radioactive decay could have been faster in the past. Also a tested mineral has an unknown amount of starting parent and daughter elements. It is also unknown if any of these elements were added or removed since it was created or died (in the case of a fossil).
@ Chanakya
Yes they have done studies of how much radioactive decay there is NOW ,but they do not have the data as to how much radioactive decay was BEFORE recent times. Also you're going to discredit me because I used the word item instead of mineral? Isn't a mineral or a fossil an item? Yes fossils are mineralized tissue ,but one could still call either an item. None of what you have said shows where ,and how I am wrong. As for a global flood the scientists you call "qualified" believe that there may have once been a global flood on Mars where there is virtually NO WATER ,yet the very idea that one could have happened on earth of which the surface is TWO THIRDS WATER ,the very idea is ridiculed. Yes AiG ,and RATE are ridiculed ,but that doesn't make their studies any more or less valid than say Richard Dawkins ,or Albert Einstien. I would like a reference to an ancient document that is more than say 200-300 years old that shows that Hindus really believed this about the age of the earth. You have not refuted any of my points you have only shown your bias. My first statement about radiocarbon dating is very clear about the idea that radioactive decay could have been faster in the past. Also a tested mineral has an unknown amount of starting parent and daughter elements. It is also unknown if any of these elements were added or removed since it was created or died (in the case of a fossil).
written by Cerebrum123 , August 11, 2011
When you look at Jesus' teachings ,what evil motive did He have for them?Jesus did also meet your requirements about death. He was crucified ,and rose from the dead on the third day. There were many witnesses to this event. After He appeared to His disciples ,and other people for forty days He ascended into heaven in front of a large crowd. The Gospels are eyewitness testimonies to these events ,and their writings have been well preserved ,and were all written shortly after this series of events. There was almost no time for Him to have been mythologized. Not only that most of His disciples were killed for teaching about this ,and had no fear of death and preached His message until their deaths. Again I ask you what sinister motive Jesus would have had when you look at His teachings?
written by Ron Krumpos , August 11, 2011
In 2011 world population will reach 7 billion (vs. 3 billion in 1960). There are now approximately 2.2 billion Christians. Some of them believe that 4.8 billion people face eternal hell because they do not accept Jesus.
Concepts of afterlife vary between religions and among divisions of each faith. Not all Christians agree on what happens after this life, nor do all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or other believers. Rebirth, resurrection, purgatory, universalism, and oblivion are other possibilities...none of which can be proven.
Mystics of all faiths have more in common than the followers of their orthodox religions. True mystics realize that eternal life is here and now; it does not begin after mortal death. The age of Earth is said to be 4.5 billion years, of the Universe 13.7 billion, yet few humans live to be 100. This lifetime is a fleeting moment.
Scriptures are subject to interpretation; people often choose what is most beneficial for them.
http://www.peacenext.org/profile/RonKrumpos
Concepts of afterlife vary between religions and among divisions of each faith. Not all Christians agree on what happens after this life, nor do all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or other believers. Rebirth, resurrection, purgatory, universalism, and oblivion are other possibilities...none of which can be proven.
Mystics of all faiths have more in common than the followers of their orthodox religions. True mystics realize that eternal life is here and now; it does not begin after mortal death. The age of Earth is said to be 4.5 billion years, of the Universe 13.7 billion, yet few humans live to be 100. This lifetime is a fleeting moment.
Scriptures are subject to interpretation; people often choose what is most beneficial for them.
http://www.peacenext.org/profile/RonKrumpos
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 11, 2011
He was crucified ,and rose from the dead on the third day. There were many witnesses to this event.
Your claim is not true. Nobody him come out of his grave and walk or fly away.
Not only that most of His disciples were killed for teaching about this...
This is another lie. Only one of his disciple is known to have been stoned to death --- after given forewarning and upon his throwing of insults, accusations and audacity at the Jewish authority of Israel. Given Christians have killed every infidel that came within their power and reach just for being a Pagan, from Europe to North America, to India's Goa -- the Jewish trearment of Jesus and his disciples were a zillion times more tolerant and civilized that Christians.
written by Dwito , August 11, 2011
You mentioned Goa. Why not south India? It should be specifically mentioned as the perpetrator is a direct disciple of Christ, St. Xaviers, Whose horrendous atrocities has been noted nowhere but by his own writings. You would better quote some directly.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 12, 2011
duh_swami. ""All Islamic prayer is self centered and materialistic".
Sorry. I don't understand the religion of prayers. Quran suggests a prayer:
"Guide us O Lord to the path that is straight. The path of those You have blessed. Not of those who have earned Your displeasure, nor of those who have gone astray. (1:6-7)
"I one knew a devout Christian girl who prayed to God for material objects, like an air conditioner for her car".
Yes there is one Christian girl like that. Her prayers are not essentially Christian prayers. Offie prays for me also in all her prayers.
Sorry. I don't understand the religion of prayers. Quran suggests a prayer:
"Guide us O Lord to the path that is straight. The path of those You have blessed. Not of those who have earned Your displeasure, nor of those who have gone astray. (1:6-7)
"I one knew a devout Christian girl who prayed to God for material objects, like an air conditioner for her car".
Yes there is one Christian girl like that. Her prayers are not essentially Christian prayers. Offie prays for me also in all her prayers.
written by duh_swami , August 12, 2011
duh-swami. Your post came. My reply was detained.
Which post was that? Several of mine have been diverted recently...
Which post was that? Several of mine have been diverted recently...
written by Bingo , August 12, 2011
Why are you so much into pushing your beliefs down our throat. This is not a Christian forum. Restrict your discussion to Islam. If someone wants to know about Jesus he/she can study Bible. I can lecture about my religion for hours, but I don't do it knowing what Islam-watch stands for. Hope u understand n move on.
written by dead or alive , August 12, 2011
Being in the womb and birth? Could be the same at death.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 12, 2011
Thanks for the sound defense of what you believe. The Bible tells me to be always ready to give reason of my hope in Christ. 1Pet 3:15 In as much as I agree with all you have said about the concept of God, justice, reward and punishment of the hereafter, but I beg to enlighten you on what you do not know. It ,may interest you to know that all your queries and doubt has been answered in God’s revelation to man called the Bible.
Truly no religious fanatics and bigot can be 100% sure what happens after death. The only thing that any religious fellows are 100% sure of is death. The main reason for Gods revelation was to man that 100% assurance of the life after death. Anyone that takes his revelation as religious duties to appease a God for the purpose of escaping the punishment of hell, such people cannot be sure of what happens after death.
From Genesis’s to Revelation we see God revealing himself to man culminating by the incantation of his Word which become human like us whom he call his Son that he might give us the assurance of the life after death. John 1:1-3,14 This he did successfully before his death and after his death he defiled the force of gravity in the open display of his power with promise to return again to take those who believe in home so that where he is they may be there with him and that place he called it heaven John 14:1-6 Act 1:9
You reason currently, that if God is our father, it doesn’t sound reasonable for the kind of eternal punishment describe in the Bible for those who disobey him, and for him to be a God of justice the punishment must march the offense, I agree, not of cause if He has warned of the consequences of our action and our inactions.
Truly no religious fanatics and bigot can be 100% sure what happens after death. The only thing that any religious fellows are 100% sure of is death. The main reason for Gods revelation was to man that 100% assurance of the life after death. Anyone that takes his revelation as religious duties to appease a God for the purpose of escaping the punishment of hell, such people cannot be sure of what happens after death.
From Genesis’s to Revelation we see God revealing himself to man culminating by the incantation of his Word which become human like us whom he call his Son that he might give us the assurance of the life after death. John 1:1-3,14 This he did successfully before his death and after his death he defiled the force of gravity in the open display of his power with promise to return again to take those who believe in home so that where he is they may be there with him and that place he called it heaven John 14:1-6 Act 1:9
You reason currently, that if God is our father, it doesn’t sound reasonable for the kind of eternal punishment describe in the Bible for those who disobey him, and for him to be a God of justice the punishment must march the offense, I agree, not of cause if He has warned of the consequences of our action and our inactions.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 12, 2011
We see in the Bible God revealed from the beginning the consequences of eating the forbidden fruits. The reason why the punishment has to be eternal was because according to God’s revelation Man was made in the image of God and he breathed in man his eternal Spirit. The implication of this was that Man will continue to live forever, whether with God or not with God. The place where those who disobey him will spend their eternality happened to be called Hell. Hell is where God will not be in eternity. It is the abode of those separated from him because of disobedient. Jesus who came from above told us is a place of torment Luke 16:19-31
I think among the men who ever lived Jesus is the most qualified to tell us about the life after death. Why? Is because he was the only one who came to this world miraculously who died and resurrected and went back to heaven with infallible proves that this really happened.
The Bible revelation did not give unclear assurance of man salvation; Jesus came for this very reason. Let me now give you Bible passages that give us the certainty of the Life after death and the cons sequences of rejecting the offer of salvation.
You need to know however that this assurance is only possible because of God grace not because of anything we have done to deserve it, not even because of our ability to keep his commandment but because of his grace alone. Grace is an unmerited favor from God at Christ expense. This is logical because no one came into this world with his own volition but by God will and if God is our father as you observe we should not be made to pay for what is our right to have, and so we are saved free of charge, on condition that remain his adopted children by faith in the free provision he made in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the savior or Messiah.
I think among the men who ever lived Jesus is the most qualified to tell us about the life after death. Why? Is because he was the only one who came to this world miraculously who died and resurrected and went back to heaven with infallible proves that this really happened.
The Bible revelation did not give unclear assurance of man salvation; Jesus came for this very reason. Let me now give you Bible passages that give us the certainty of the Life after death and the cons sequences of rejecting the offer of salvation.
You need to know however that this assurance is only possible because of God grace not because of anything we have done to deserve it, not even because of our ability to keep his commandment but because of his grace alone. Grace is an unmerited favor from God at Christ expense. This is logical because no one came into this world with his own volition but by God will and if God is our father as you observe we should not be made to pay for what is our right to have, and so we are saved free of charge, on condition that remain his adopted children by faith in the free provision he made in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the savior or Messiah.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 12, 2011
John 14:1 “¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Act 1:1 “ ¶ The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Act 1:9 “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 3: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
1John 5: 11 “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Act 1:9 “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
Act 1:1 “ ¶ The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Act 1:9 “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 3: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
1John 5: 11 “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Act 1:9 “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 12, 2011
1."There is no way to know whether the alleged prophets -- Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Joseph Smith -- ever truly talked to God, even if He/She exists."
There are infallible proves in the Bible and the present supernatural happenings are witnesses that prove the veracity of the Bible except if you decide to close your eyes and ears to this evidences.
2."God, after a while, allow us to commit things, even opposite things, that He/She had made capital punishments before (i.e., many teachings of the Old and New Testaments are conflicting). In other words, God wants us killed for certain actions of ours today, but will let us go scot-free for committing the same a few thousand years later."
It not true any example? We should know that God reveal his will to us in a progressive manna because of our limitation as human.
3."What God(s) told us to follow 4000 years ago are a laughing
-stock today, and what the God's of our time tell us to follow will, surely, be laughing-stocks for our future generations, who will come 5,000 year from now (Hasn't many teachings of Jesus are being mocked already, less we talk about those of Moses?)."
It is not true His word remain eternal is not subject to change give one example of such laughing -stock and I will explain to you what it means. Of course it has to be from the Bible not Quran
4."God asked the Hebrews, a tiny part of humanity, to kill the adulterers by stoning some 3300 years ago, which he has even nullified already some 2000 years ago, but a big part of humanity probably still do not know about it".
No sir, God did not nullify it, Jesus only said that he who has no sin should be the one to cast stones, in other words the proper interpretation of that stoning judgment was that it should be carried out by those who are sinless and since no one is sinless such Judgment should be left in the hand of God not man. Secondly it also means that this is time of grace, the New covenant any one who repent of his sins no matter how gracious the sin it can be forgiven.
It does not mean that God will now overlook sin nor the soul that sinneth shall die that is God work and is unchanging but if you confess your sin and forsake them He faithful and just to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. 1John1:9
Do you think you understand?
written by Cerebrum123 , August 12, 2011
The reason I first came on this site was to study Islam so that I could show the Muslims I care about the truth about Islam. I began reading articles and their posts ,and I realized that a large number of people on here equate Islam and Christianity as practically the same thing. I decided that I needed to stand up for the truth of God's Word. Some of even the more respected posters on this site have demonstrated this either out of ignorance or out of anger. They have posted a great deal of misinformation on the subject of the Bible ,and few people were actually countering their claims. I decided to counter these claims myself ,and at least try to dispel some of these myths , lies ,and misinformation being spread. Now I'm not saying that these lies came directly from the posters ,because I have seen the same ones in many other places. I simply think that they believed these lies ,and started spreading them around. Now I asked the above questions to M.A. Khan ,because of a statement he had made earlier. I can't even remember exactly what that statement was. I simply wanted to be able to understand him better. I believe understanding a person's worldview helps greatly in understanding that person as a whole. I never expected him to write an entire article to discuss the questions I asked. I think I may have hit a nerve with those questions ,which was entirely an unintended consequence. Please understand why I do post here.
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 12, 2011
While this site is focused on Islam, there are lot of preachings by the followers of different faiths on the forum. I have received a lot of requests to block such comments, but I have given the readers freedom to express themselves as they wish, however irrelevant the comments sometimes are. There is a lot of trashing of the non-believers on the forum as well. Despite being an atheist myself, I normally ignore those. Since you asked some serious questions, which I noticed days later -- I thought a thorough discussion of those questions could be good for us to understand each other. That's why I posted this as an article.
And this site has an atheistic/nontheistic approach as its mission; so this discussion is not irrelevant here (although I make desperate efforts to refrain from lest...). And this is not the first article of its type either. I believe such articles do not harm anyone; it, at best, help us understand each other better.
And this site has an atheistic/nontheistic approach as its mission; so this discussion is not irrelevant here (although I make desperate efforts to refrain from lest...). And this is not the first article of its type either. I believe such articles do not harm anyone; it, at best, help us understand each other better.
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 12, 2011
concerning stoning: A crime is a crime and the criminal should suffer due punishments. Since we are all sinners, as Jesus portrays us in that story, so nobody should punish a criminal, a murderer --- that's what devout Christians should believe and practise. The reality is the exactly the opposite: It's is unbelievers -- liberals, humanists -- who urges for a softer approach in punishments for crimes, while pious Christians (& other believers: Jews, Muslims...) -- despite believer they are all sinners -- want to to be ruthless toward criminals.
written by Yibel , August 12, 2011
A woman was caught in the very act of adultery and brought before Jesus to be judged. Jesus did not ask those who brought her, “Where is this woman's partner in crime?” Instead he said to them "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And he knelt down and wrote in the dirt, as a teacher would when teaching small children how to write their letters. When he looked up the accusers were gone. What he
was telling these people, in a very subtle way, is that they were perverting the Law by letting the man go free, while only accusing the woman. By practicing discrimination and applying the Law arbitrarily according to their own prejudices, they were the greater sinners. Notice that these sinners (law breakers) slunk away quietly, rather than turn themselves in and face the consequences.
was telling these people, in a very subtle way, is that they were perverting the Law by letting the man go free, while only accusing the woman. By practicing discrimination and applying the Law arbitrarily according to their own prejudices, they were the greater sinners. Notice that these sinners (law breakers) slunk away quietly, rather than turn themselves in and face the consequences.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 12, 2011
Cerebrum123. You asked "Do you see Christianity as basically the same thing as Islam without the orders to kill unbelievers?
1.Where in Islam you found orders to kill unbelievers?
2.Do you think that Islam considers Jews and Christians as unbelievers?
3.Good that you have personally experienced God. How was your experience?
4.Do you think that experiencing God is a requirement to believe in God?
5.Do you think Christianity does not permit war or armed encounter with enemies?
I have my own views about religions which you may be familiar of. Your answers will be of help to me. I hope my questions will be taken as academic. Thanks.
1.Where in Islam you found orders to kill unbelievers?
2.Do you think that Islam considers Jews and Christians as unbelievers?
3.Good that you have personally experienced God. How was your experience?
4.Do you think that experiencing God is a requirement to believe in God?
5.Do you think Christianity does not permit war or armed encounter with enemies?
I have my own views about religions which you may be familiar of. Your answers will be of help to me. I hope my questions will be taken as academic. Thanks.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 12, 2011
Yibel . “A woman was caught in the very act of adultery and brought before Jesus to be judged. ..... "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And he knelt down and wrote in the dirt, as a teacher would when teaching small children how to write their letters. When he looked up the accusers were gone.
Who brought and why to Jesus? Why not male accomplice? Didn’t he approve stoning by saying “let one who has not sinned cast first stone? What is the context of the event? Is it in Gospel? Were they accusers when you say 'woman was caught in the very act of adultery?
You add “What he was telling these people, in a very subtle way, ….. slunk away quietly, rather than turn them in and face the consequences.”
How you say that? He had allegedly awarded stoning punishment to the woman.
Who brought and why to Jesus? Why not male accomplice? Didn’t he approve stoning by saying “let one who has not sinned cast first stone? What is the context of the event? Is it in Gospel? Were they accusers when you say 'woman was caught in the very act of adultery?
You add “What he was telling these people, in a very subtle way, ….. slunk away quietly, rather than turn them in and face the consequences.”
How you say that? He had allegedly awarded stoning punishment to the woman.
written by dead or alive , August 12, 2011
If we are born knowing nothing,then die knowing nothing,we learnred noting till death?
written by yahoo , August 13, 2011
MA Khan and ALi Sina are the most popular TRUE Liors in this modern WORLD. look how he is going to Kill the Intellect of other correct Humans while he is claiming the There is No God????
Can He answer WHY are we ALIVE? What is the purpose of this LIFE? Why is he Talking? WHY is He even opposing to the Existence of ALLAH (Subhan).
MA Khan fogot that He cant Prove the Purpose of Life.... neither He can prove the Delusion of No GOd.
Can He answer WHY are we ALIVE? What is the purpose of this LIFE? Why is he Talking? WHY is He even opposing to the Existence of ALLAH (Subhan).
MA Khan fogot that He cant Prove the Purpose of Life.... neither He can prove the Delusion of No GOd.
written by Machmoed , August 13, 2011
Purpose of life is an individual choice. No one can explain why we are here?
delusion of there being a God or no God is just the same, we simply don't know. Some believe there should be a God and there might. BUT for the universe as it is, the laws of nature are enough to explain and it has been prooven by stephen hawking. No god is needed for this universe, he said. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist, only that He is not needed for the universe to become what it is.
Can you explain why there are deseases?
delusion of there being a God or no God is just the same, we simply don't know. Some believe there should be a God and there might. BUT for the universe as it is, the laws of nature are enough to explain and it has been prooven by stephen hawking. No god is needed for this universe, he said. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist, only that He is not needed for the universe to become what it is.
Can you explain why there are deseases?
written by Brown Superman , August 13, 2011
Your assertion .... MA KHAN and ALI SINA are the most popular TRUE liars in this modern WORLD.
I hope you would prove every word that you said, otherwise just F*CK OFF.
99.99% of MUSSIES are exactly like you. I will prove that when you do.
Bloody noise makers who yell exactly the same thing times a day over the loudspeakers trying
to convince themselves Alla-U-f**kbar and Mo' if the greatest f*uckmaster.
I hope you would prove every word that you said, otherwise just F*CK OFF.
99.99% of MUSSIES are exactly like you. I will prove that when you do.
Bloody noise makers who yell exactly the same thing times a day over the loudspeakers trying
to convince themselves Alla-U-f**kbar and Mo' if the greatest f*uckmaster.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 13, 2011
Dear MA Khan The State can enforce criminal Law and any moral Law that is so defined by the law of the land.
You said “concerning stoning: A crime is a crime and the criminal should suffer due punishments. Since we are all sinners, as Jesus portrays us in that story, so nobody should punish a criminal, a murderer --- that's what devout Christians should believe and practise.”
It is not so sir, The bible did not say Christians should not punish criminal? It is the duty of the State to punish criminal and not that of the individuals, Christians are supposed to be law abiding citizens and not to take laws into their hands. That is why the Church is separate from the state.
The reason is that what God frown at as sin may not necessarily be a criminal offence in the sight of the state. For example adultery is a moral sin but the state may not consider it as criminal offence that deserves punishment if the party consented to each other to have sex outside marriage.
In a place where theocracy was practiced in the Old Testament in the state of Israel, God’s moral law are interpreted and judgement passed as a state Law. But in the New Testament however we don’t have Theocracy any more, all judgement for Moral law in which the state cannot punish should be differed and be punished by God only. No Stony is permitted since no single human is said to be free from sin. The only person who qualified to judge on account of sin is Jesus because all judgement have been committed into his hand and because he alone was sinless. John3:31-36 Bud since he said he has not come to judge for now all judgement is to be carried out by Christ on the judgement day which is yet to come.
Sinners can only be freed from the judgement if they come to Christ now repenting of their sins and accepting his offer of salvation. John 3:16
You said “concerning stoning: A crime is a crime and the criminal should suffer due punishments. Since we are all sinners, as Jesus portrays us in that story, so nobody should punish a criminal, a murderer --- that's what devout Christians should believe and practise.”
It is not so sir, The bible did not say Christians should not punish criminal? It is the duty of the State to punish criminal and not that of the individuals, Christians are supposed to be law abiding citizens and not to take laws into their hands. That is why the Church is separate from the state.
The reason is that what God frown at as sin may not necessarily be a criminal offence in the sight of the state. For example adultery is a moral sin but the state may not consider it as criminal offence that deserves punishment if the party consented to each other to have sex outside marriage.
In a place where theocracy was practiced in the Old Testament in the state of Israel, God’s moral law are interpreted and judgement passed as a state Law. But in the New Testament however we don’t have Theocracy any more, all judgement for Moral law in which the state cannot punish should be differed and be punished by God only. No Stony is permitted since no single human is said to be free from sin. The only person who qualified to judge on account of sin is Jesus because all judgement have been committed into his hand and because he alone was sinless. John3:31-36 Bud since he said he has not come to judge for now all judgement is to be carried out by Christ on the judgement day which is yet to come.
Sinners can only be freed from the judgement if they come to Christ now repenting of their sins and accepting his offer of salvation. John 3:16
written by duh_swami , August 13, 2011
Can He answer WHY are we ALIVE?
What makes you think pious Muslims are actually alive? There is more than one way to be dead without physical death...Someone can be emotionally dead, ethically dead, morally dead or spiritually dead...The dead walk among us...Robots and zombies...Allah the champion of death, has put a chain of death around your pious neck and dares you to try and slip out of it...
The purpose of life is to overcome death...If you roll around in death it will stick to you, and you will become it...Talking about diet the author said, 'You are what you eat'...Mentally, taking in, invoking, ingesting is eating, injesting death emotionally and spiritually and rolling around in it creates dangerous zombies,who's desire is to share death with the rest of us...
Religions that spring up as death cults are evil because death is worshipped, not life...But this kind of living death can be fixed...Knowledge,+ experience+ understanding= enlightenment =wisdom, and wisdom= apostasy...Apostasy removes the death chains of Allah, and allows the apostate to regain his emotional and spiritual life...No longer a zombie, no longer a robot...no longer obligated to evil...Apostasy is the key to overcoming death while you live...No body escapes physical death because of entropy...If science discovers an easy way to immortality, and overcomes physical death, why would anyone want to spend eternity mentally dead, and be forever a zombie?
The way out of this Allah imposed death sentence is apostasy...Liven up...apostate today...Happiness is the result...
What makes you think pious Muslims are actually alive? There is more than one way to be dead without physical death...Someone can be emotionally dead, ethically dead, morally dead or spiritually dead...The dead walk among us...Robots and zombies...Allah the champion of death, has put a chain of death around your pious neck and dares you to try and slip out of it...
The purpose of life is to overcome death...If you roll around in death it will stick to you, and you will become it...Talking about diet the author said, 'You are what you eat'...Mentally, taking in, invoking, ingesting is eating, injesting death emotionally and spiritually and rolling around in it creates dangerous zombies,who's desire is to share death with the rest of us...
Religions that spring up as death cults are evil because death is worshipped, not life...But this kind of living death can be fixed...Knowledge,+ experience+ understanding= enlightenment =wisdom, and wisdom= apostasy...Apostasy removes the death chains of Allah, and allows the apostate to regain his emotional and spiritual life...No longer a zombie, no longer a robot...no longer obligated to evil...Apostasy is the key to overcoming death while you live...No body escapes physical death because of entropy...If science discovers an easy way to immortality, and overcomes physical death, why would anyone want to spend eternity mentally dead, and be forever a zombie?
The way out of this Allah imposed death sentence is apostasy...Liven up...apostate today...Happiness is the result...
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 13, 2011
Then, didn't Jesus take law into his hand by ordering stoning of the adulterous woman? Jesus was not a state; so he committed a crime.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 13, 2011
M. A. Khan, editor. "Then, didn't Jesus take law into his hand by ordering stoning of the adulterous woman?
Yes Mr. Khan you are right. I am sure the episode is fiction. Jesus Christ did not do that. This seems a hadis.
Neither Moses stoned nor Jesus. The fabricator of this hadis has vulgarly attributed to Jesus Christ to malign him. He had enemies of course. Clergy absurdly believed and proudly advanced to the gullible who never analyze. َاسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّـه
Yes Mr. Khan you are right. I am sure the episode is fiction. Jesus Christ did not do that. This seems a hadis.
Neither Moses stoned nor Jesus. The fabricator of this hadis has vulgarly attributed to Jesus Christ to malign him. He had enemies of course. Clergy absurdly believed and proudly advanced to the gullible who never analyze. َاسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّـه
written by vbv , August 13, 2011
There is no "god" at all . Only deluded fools, gulliblwe idiots or scamsters/conmen insist that there is such a spook called "god". Above all this monotheistic spook is the creation of the most intolerant bigot. This spook is the inspirationm of all terrorists. This is a lonely self-centred ,jealous,wicked,vengeful and narcissistic spook that qualifies to be the first terrorist of all. All that crap about heaven and hell is just a babble of these medeival morons who usede this imaginery evil spook to have unlimited power over people,bending them to their will in the name of this imAGINERY SPOOK. aFTER ALL THIS SPOOK IS THE CREATION OF SUCH CONMEN AND ITS CHARACTYER IS THE REFLECTION OF THEASE VERY CONMEN AND SANCTIMONIOUS CRIMINALS.
written by vbv , August 13, 2011
Does this "god" exist? Certainly not. There was no concept of god before humans organised themselves into clans,groups,etc. Thers was no god before this for millions of years. Organised religions are not more than 5,000 years. Before that nature worship prevailed. This urge to invent "god" came from scheming rascals who found a way to live off others earnings contributing nothing worthwhile or economic value to the society. They are parasites who put the "fear of god " in the mass of gullible people ,silence sane voices by coercion or plain killing, and exercise unlimited power over the masses for self agrandisement, getting huge financial fallout in bargain.All socalled holy books are written in the language invented by humans,and there are thousands of languages. The godmen,clegy always joined hands with the rich ,powerful politicians to live in finanicial security and great comfort . So much for this imaginery spook who watches all these capers and sham in utter impotence,while nonbelievers and noncorformists are threatened and asked to fall in line or face dire consequences. God is the creation of these scoundrels .
written by Duh Swami , August 13, 2011
Reed has shown some extremely good points here. I have to agree with his point of view and it could be that I have not judged him correctly. I think we would all be better served if we gave Islam a second look from a positive perspective. Thank you Reed.
written by pipo , August 13, 2011
"Given Christians have killed every infidel that came within their power and reach for being a Pagan from Europe to North America to India, Goa"
I think this statement deserves some nuance;
'Warrior Christianity' only developed after centuries, it's main boost and inspiration, I think, being the confrontations with Islam... It most strongly took its militant shape on the Iberian peninsula, which more or less proofs the point.
Of course early Christianity is a completely different story. Those early Christians deserve respect for renouncing violence even facing the most severe persecution and also for their greatest merit; the elimination of the 'çlassic world's' slavery by the end of the 7th century.
Also the Abolisionists who ended the slavery of the pseudo-Christian world were largely professing Christians.
I think this statement deserves some nuance;
'Warrior Christianity' only developed after centuries, it's main boost and inspiration, I think, being the confrontations with Islam... It most strongly took its militant shape on the Iberian peninsula, which more or less proofs the point.
Of course early Christianity is a completely different story. Those early Christians deserve respect for renouncing violence even facing the most severe persecution and also for their greatest merit; the elimination of the 'çlassic world's' slavery by the end of the 7th century.
Also the Abolisionists who ended the slavery of the pseudo-Christian world were largely professing Christians.
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 13, 2011
Warrior Christianity' only developed after centuries, it's main boost and inspiration, I think, being the confrontations with IslamChristianity grew under the watch of the world's two most powerful empires at the time -- Persia and Rome. The situation was unlike the growth of the Islamic cult in the safe-haven of Arab desert, without any powerful government or army in place. The Bedouins of Arabia were also a plundering people, unlike the more civilized folks of Persia and Rome. So, the disparity in the pace of growth of Islam and Christianity, and their turning to violence is easy to fathom.
Christianity turned violent centuries after its birth -- that's true. But it also turned oppressive and violent as soon it could. It started oppressing the infidels as soon as it attained power, i.e., rose to imperial power of Rome with Constantine the Great's embrace of Christianity.
Christianity had been oppressing and violating the rights, dignity and security of the infidels for over 200 years before Islam's birth. It didn't start with Islam, although Islamic aggression certainly influenced it and aggravated.
Christianity never abolished slavery in the Classical World as far as my knowledge goes. Slavery was, instead, a part and parcel of the Christian world until its abolition in the Enlightenment Era under liberal influence. By the end of the 7th century, slavery in the Christian world was probably more heightened than ever before and was poised to get worse. For example, in the 690s, the Jews of Spain were order to embrace Jesus or be taken as slaves.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 13, 2011
Clement. Your post to Editor M A Khan.
I couldn't help enjoying your "Do you think you understand?
It is climax of expression. Thank you Clement.
I couldn't help enjoying your "Do you think you understand?
It is climax of expression. Thank you Clement.
written by duh_swami , August 14, 2011
written by Duh Swami, August 13, 2011
Reed has shown some extremely good points here.
You see Reed, we live in a clone society where everyone has a clone...You have a clone, I have a clone, we all have clones together...My clone has not yet perfected his clonesmanship...but it is obvious that he has studied the subject a little...However it is difficult to clone duh swami...Many have tried but they all come up just a little short...It's even harder to clone you Reed, because so far your clone has no expertise in posting Arabic script...It's possible your clone and my clone are the same clone, making us relatives in a strange sort of way...Allah thinks of everything doesn't he...No one knew that Allah is the clone god, but we know now...
Reed has shown some extremely good points here.
You see Reed, we live in a clone society where everyone has a clone...You have a clone, I have a clone, we all have clones together...My clone has not yet perfected his clonesmanship...but it is obvious that he has studied the subject a little...However it is difficult to clone duh swami...Many have tried but they all come up just a little short...It's even harder to clone you Reed, because so far your clone has no expertise in posting Arabic script...It's possible your clone and my clone are the same clone, making us relatives in a strange sort of way...Allah thinks of everything doesn't he...No one knew that Allah is the clone god, but we know now...
written by duh_swami , August 14, 2011
Christianity itself abuses no one...But some 'Christians' do abuse, and have abused...Anyone who says they are abusing in the name of God, is a liar. They are abusing for profit, and even worse for enjoyment...This was the state of the ruling Catholic Church during the mid ages...As soon as Constantine declared Christianity the only valid religion, Europe plunged into the dark ages...The reason for that is that men in power positions saw it as a money making enterprise...
At one point, the Vatican was turned into a brothel because the Pope of the time realized there was more money in sex than praying...
There was little similarity between the corrupt Church and it's years of corrupt leaders, and the teachings of Christianity...The Church indulged itself in murder, torture and robbery for over 500 years...The worst thing that could happen to a person in those days was to be, 'Put under the permanent protection of the Church'...That meant you got to live in a dungeon and be tortured every day...While you were resting, you were chained to the wall...
Is this an example of Christianity in action, or is it the behavior of selfish and depraved men hiding behind Jesus? The answer to that is to follow the money...It nearly all ended up with the clergy...The Church robbed its way into so much money and power that a Pope offered to 'give' the 'entire' country of France to someone as a bribe...All of the above is what caused many Christian leaders to break off with 'The Church', and it's corruption...Martin Luther was one of them...
At one point, the Vatican was turned into a brothel because the Pope of the time realized there was more money in sex than praying...
There was little similarity between the corrupt Church and it's years of corrupt leaders, and the teachings of Christianity...The Church indulged itself in murder, torture and robbery for over 500 years...The worst thing that could happen to a person in those days was to be, 'Put under the permanent protection of the Church'...That meant you got to live in a dungeon and be tortured every day...While you were resting, you were chained to the wall...
Is this an example of Christianity in action, or is it the behavior of selfish and depraved men hiding behind Jesus? The answer to that is to follow the money...It nearly all ended up with the clergy...The Church robbed its way into so much money and power that a Pope offered to 'give' the 'entire' country of France to someone as a bribe...All of the above is what caused many Christian leaders to break off with 'The Church', and it's corruption...Martin Luther was one of them...
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 14, 2011
You said "Then, didn't Jesus take law into his hand by ordering stoning of the adulterous woman? Jesus was not a state; so he committed a crime."
It appears you are mixing things up here Jesus has never ordered the stoning of anybody talk less of a woman. Except if you have reference for what you are talking about. The stoning incident in which I interpreted for you above is recorded in John 8, I advise that you read and understand it properly.
The religious fellows brought the woman whom they claimed they caught her at the very act of adultery and wanted Jesus to judge but he asked them that the person who has never committed sin before to first cast the stone to the woman of which no one could meet the condition and Jesus who was the only one sinless did not condemn her either but advised her to go and sin no more. Jesus did not order the stoning but forgave the woman. He was not annulling the stoning but confirming that adultery must be surely punished and judged but it will be done by he who is sinless and must be God himself.
Jesus was known to have said give to Caesars that which is Caesars’ and give to God that which belongs to God. Luke 20:24-25. The implication of this is that the things of the State should not be mixed up with the things of God. The State should be separated from the Church. State should try and judge those things that are prescribed in the law of the state but leave the moral issue that not covered by the state to God to determine the punishment.
It appears you are mixing things up here Jesus has never ordered the stoning of anybody talk less of a woman. Except if you have reference for what you are talking about. The stoning incident in which I interpreted for you above is recorded in John 8, I advise that you read and understand it properly.
The religious fellows brought the woman whom they claimed they caught her at the very act of adultery and wanted Jesus to judge but he asked them that the person who has never committed sin before to first cast the stone to the woman of which no one could meet the condition and Jesus who was the only one sinless did not condemn her either but advised her to go and sin no more. Jesus did not order the stoning but forgave the woman. He was not annulling the stoning but confirming that adultery must be surely punished and judged but it will be done by he who is sinless and must be God himself.
Jesus was known to have said give to Caesars that which is Caesars’ and give to God that which belongs to God. Luke 20:24-25. The implication of this is that the things of the State should not be mixed up with the things of God. The State should be separated from the Church. State should try and judge those things that are prescribed in the law of the state but leave the moral issue that not covered by the state to God to determine the punishment.
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 14, 2011
You are probably right; but many Christians won't agree. And a vicious Antisemite that he was, it can be said with some degree of certainty that he was the father of modern Antisemitism and Holocaust of the Jews. At a time when Antisemitism was subsiding in Europe, Luther wrote the most systematic and vicious Antisemitic treatises to keep the legacy of Antisemitism alive. Lurther's intent on persecuting the Jews were worse than that of any other Catholic ideologue before him. And interestingly, his approach was a copy-cat of Muhammad's. First, he praise the Jews, hoping that they would embrace Jesus. When they didn't, he started spewing hatred toward them.
written by duh_swami , August 14, 2011
So, Luther was an ideal Christian??
I don't think I said that...Luther was just an example of those who rebelled against the Church...According to the story, he was in Frankfurt and heard about the corrupt goings on in Rome, when he got to the Vatican he found numbers of dead bodies laying around...If that's accurate, it would have cemented his opinion...
Any way he was just an example, and I was not pushing Lutherism...
I don't think I said that...Luther was just an example of those who rebelled against the Church...According to the story, he was in Frankfurt and heard about the corrupt goings on in Rome, when he got to the Vatican he found numbers of dead bodies laying around...If that's accurate, it would have cemented his opinion...
Any way he was just an example, and I was not pushing Lutherism...
written by Cerebrum123 , August 14, 2011
I will answer your above question here.
1. Verse 9:5 of the Quran is a good start when talking of killing of unbelievers.
2. Doesn't the Quran claim that Jews are the worst of all creation ,and that Christians practice shirk?
3. I have experienced amazing things including miracles.
4. No I don't believe that having and experience with God is a prerequisite of believing in Him. I do however believe that trusting in His Son Jesus will lead to more experiences with Him though.
5. No I don't think that Christianity prevents armed encounters with enemies that are endangering your life ,and the life of others.
I think you already had the answer to the first two already since you believe the Quran. The type of violence against unbelievers in the Quran is quite different from defensive military and police actions.
1. Verse 9:5 of the Quran is a good start when talking of killing of unbelievers.
2. Doesn't the Quran claim that Jews are the worst of all creation ,and that Christians practice shirk?
3. I have experienced amazing things including miracles.
4. No I don't believe that having and experience with God is a prerequisite of believing in Him. I do however believe that trusting in His Son Jesus will lead to more experiences with Him though.
5. No I don't think that Christianity prevents armed encounters with enemies that are endangering your life ,and the life of others.
I think you already had the answer to the first two already since you believe the Quran. The type of violence against unbelievers in the Quran is quite different from defensive military and police actions.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 14, 2011
I was actually very glad to get a response from you on the questions I asked. I was surprised that it came in the form of an entire article ,but still I was glad. I have to agree with you that having these kinds of discussions can at the very least help us understand one another. I find that when I understand what someone else believes it makes it easier to communicate with them without the discussion getting heated ,and blown out of proportion. Not that it never happens even when I do know what someone believes ,but it seems a little easier than when not knowing how the person thinks and believes. I do not like to attack people personally when having a discussion ,although some people can take it that way sometimes. I would prefer to talk about inconsistencies in other world views. Atheism is inconsistent on morality. Without an absolute moral guideline an individual's opinion becomes law. Some people like to deflect this with majority rule decides morality ,but this also has a problem. Hitler convinced a majority of Germany that what he was doing was right. Also in a purely materialistic universe nothing that is immaterial should exist right? In this world there are immaterial things that exist ,such as the laws of logic. These laws of logic are not made of matter or energy. Materialistic atheism cannot account for anything immaterial which makes laws of logic inconsistent with this world view. The laws of physics are also inconsistent with this worldview. In a world where everything is made by random chance we would have no reason to trust the laws of physics ,because they would be just as random as the universe in which they exist. In this type of random chance universe it would be unwise to trust them because you never know when they could just randomly reverse themselves or cease to exit altogether. I'm not trying to attack you or any atheists here ,I'm just trying to appeal to your intellect. Do you have an answer for having immaterial things exist in a purely material universe? Just think about that one for a while.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2011
duh-swami. I understand your clone theory now. Your clone posted a different story earlier to RW which it withdrew later. It was an undeserved appreciation. I did not discuss Islam on this thread so far.
Your clone is equally witty, generous and madaya. Thanks to you together with your clone.
Allah says he has no clone:
قُلْ هُوَ اللَّـهُ أَحَدٌ ﴿١﴾ اللَّـهُ الصَّمَدُ ﴿٢﴾ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ ﴿٣﴾ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ
Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah is He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is like Him. (112:1-4)
It is good in a sense, that he clarified this also and did not leave on our speculations.
I am wondering throughout how divine message, which is same since beginning, changed and sometimes hid. Gospel is not seen. Scrolls of Abraham and Moses also vanished. Hadis, which we find in various forms, replaces it.
We are responsible for this criminal relegation.
Your clone is equally witty, generous and madaya. Thanks to you together with your clone.
Allah says he has no clone:
قُلْ هُوَ اللَّـهُ أَحَدٌ ﴿١﴾ اللَّـهُ الصَّمَدُ ﴿٢﴾ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ ﴿٣﴾ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ
Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah is He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is like Him. (112:1-4)
It is good in a sense, that he clarified this also and did not leave on our speculations.
I am wondering throughout how divine message, which is same since beginning, changed and sometimes hid. Gospel is not seen. Scrolls of Abraham and Moses also vanished. Hadis, which we find in various forms, replaces it.
We are responsible for this criminal relegation.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2011
Thanks Cerebrum123 .
You write "No I don't think that Christianity prevents armed encounters with enemies that are endangering your life ,and the life of others".
If you read 9:1-5 you will find that it was a permission to fight aggressors. Quran says:
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, and do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors" 2:190.
"Permission is given to those upon whom war is imposed because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them; Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques where Allah's is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty". (22:39-40)
Yes my friend I knew you will come with 9:5 but I wanted you to quote. It becomes easier to answer.
You write "Doesn't the Quran claim that Jews are the worst of all creation ,and that Christians practice shirk?
Here again I need ref. from you. Allah didnt say that.
"No I don't believe that having and experience with God is a prerequisite of believing in Him. I do however believe that trusting in His Son Jesus will lead to more experiences with Him though".
More experiences is not my consideration. I was a hard core RC upto age 60 years then hpped to Iglicia ni Cristo before finally formally becoming Muslim. I have funny experiences.
"The type of violence against unbelievers in the Quran is quite different from defensive military and police actions".
I dont get you. It is your judgment. You missed my:
Do you think that Islam considers Jews and Christians as unbelievers?
Wishing luck!
You write "No I don't think that Christianity prevents armed encounters with enemies that are endangering your life ,and the life of others".
If you read 9:1-5 you will find that it was a permission to fight aggressors. Quran says:
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, and do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors" 2:190.
"Permission is given to those upon whom war is imposed because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them; Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques where Allah's is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty". (22:39-40)
Yes my friend I knew you will come with 9:5 but I wanted you to quote. It becomes easier to answer.
You write "Doesn't the Quran claim that Jews are the worst of all creation ,and that Christians practice shirk?
Here again I need ref. from you. Allah didnt say that.
"No I don't believe that having and experience with God is a prerequisite of believing in Him. I do however believe that trusting in His Son Jesus will lead to more experiences with Him though".
More experiences is not my consideration. I was a hard core RC upto age 60 years then hpped to Iglicia ni Cristo before finally formally becoming Muslim. I have funny experiences.
"The type of violence against unbelievers in the Quran is quite different from defensive military and police actions".
I dont get you. It is your judgment. You missed my:
Do you think that Islam considers Jews and Christians as unbelievers?
Wishing luck!
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 14, 2011
Reed said "Yes Mr. Khan you are right. I am sure the episode is fiction. Jesus Christ did not do that. This seems a hadis."
Reed where do you find fiction in the Bible? If your Hadith and Sirah was a fiction you should not think the Bible was the same, Besides Jesus has never ordered the stoning of anybody. Can you say where one can find this in the New Testament?
I know the Hadith talk of it but the stoning verse was missing in the Quran because the reciters where dead and no one could recite it during the compilation of the Quran from the memory of Mohammed' dying men. You know something that was extracted old men's memory cannot be compared with a written document right from people who were inspired to write as first hand information.
The Quran truly was a fiction or at best the hallucination of a deluded fellow.
Reed where do you find fiction in the Bible? If your Hadith and Sirah was a fiction you should not think the Bible was the same, Besides Jesus has never ordered the stoning of anybody. Can you say where one can find this in the New Testament?
I know the Hadith talk of it but the stoning verse was missing in the Quran because the reciters where dead and no one could recite it during the compilation of the Quran from the memory of Mohammed' dying men. You know something that was extracted old men's memory cannot be compared with a written document right from people who were inspired to write as first hand information.
The Quran truly was a fiction or at best the hallucination of a deluded fellow.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2011
Clement. "Can you say where one can find this in the New Testament?
It cannot be in Old Testament because it is old. Yibel alleged that 'A woman was caught in the very act of adultery and brought before Jesus to be judged. Jesus did not ask those who brought her....'. I requested her to provide reference. She is shy.
I think I have seen the story in the Bible. When I looked for it I did not find. May be in revision of Bible, the story was weeded out.
You write "Besides Jesus has never ordered the stoning of anybody".
Yes. You are right. In the same post which you refer, I have written:
"Neither Moses stoned nor Jesus. The fabricator of this hadis has vulgarly attributed to Jesus Christ to malign him. He had enemies of course. Clergy absurdly believed and proudly advanced to the gullible who never analyze. َاسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّـه
I would never believe that Jesus Christ will ever inflict stoning even if it was there in OT/NT.
Sira, hadis is not mine. I dont own Talmud, Mishnah, Madrash etc also.
It cannot be in Old Testament because it is old. Yibel alleged that 'A woman was caught in the very act of adultery and brought before Jesus to be judged. Jesus did not ask those who brought her....'. I requested her to provide reference. She is shy.
I think I have seen the story in the Bible. When I looked for it I did not find. May be in revision of Bible, the story was weeded out.
You write "Besides Jesus has never ordered the stoning of anybody".
Yes. You are right. In the same post which you refer, I have written:
"Neither Moses stoned nor Jesus. The fabricator of this hadis has vulgarly attributed to Jesus Christ to malign him. He had enemies of course. Clergy absurdly believed and proudly advanced to the gullible who never analyze. َاسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّـه
I would never believe that Jesus Christ will ever inflict stoning even if it was there in OT/NT.
Sira, hadis is not mine. I dont own Talmud, Mishnah, Madrash etc also.
written by Truth Sayer , August 14, 2011
It was a wet dream from a guy who had these early morning erections.
The proof is all angels came to him in the morning hours and they were all females except he did not leave camels and donkeys also.
His sexual excesses are not hidden from anyone.
The proof is all angels came to him in the morning hours and they were all females except he did not leave camels and donkeys also.
His sexual excesses are not hidden from anyone.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 14, 2011
In the first place there was nothing like ordering stoning by Jesus talks less of comparing it with hadith as being fiction. Your comment assumed that it was actually written in the Bible that Jesus ordered the stoning whereas there was nothing like that.
You assumed the position of an advocate for the Bible when in actual fact you are making a fun of it. For your information the Bible is not like your hadith it therefore not fair to say the stoning order was a fiction in what you call defense of Jesus. Keep you defense to yourself. Jesus does need your defense
You assumed the position of an advocate for the Bible when in actual fact you are making a fun of it. For your information the Bible is not like your hadith it therefore not fair to say the stoning order was a fiction in what you call defense of Jesus. Keep you defense to yourself. Jesus does need your defense
written by Reed Wilson. , August 14, 2011
Clement. Dont be fussy my friend. Jesus is nobody's monopoly. He was not designated for Clement alone.
I used the word hadis allegorically. All fabricated stories are ahadith. You will enjoy if understand:
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْتَرِي لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّـهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَيَتَّخِذَهَا هُزُوًا ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ
"And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge, and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement". 31:6.
I used the word hadis allegorically. All fabricated stories are ahadith. You will enjoy if understand:
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْتَرِي لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّـهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَيَتَّخِذَهَا هُزُوًا ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ
"And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge, and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement". 31:6.
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 14, 2011
Given the twisting/tweaking word-game would not end, let me conclude this conversation with you saying that: if people bring an adulterous woman to you for judgement and you suggest that persons of a particular criteria should stone her to death --- even if there was none to fulfill your requirement and stoning didn't happen --- you will still be summoned by the authority and possibly be punished --- if you are living in a civilized society governed by the rule of law --- because you tried to take law into your hand.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 14, 2011
YIBEL
I don’t think this guy Fairoz reads our post and understands it appears his brain is completely dead. Imaging those his reoccurring questions without reasonable rebuttals of those scriptures but kept on saying no proofs, of Similarity between Moses and Jesus and Jesus as God yet he can reasonably refute those scriptures.
Fairoz cannot even give us proofs that the Quran and his prophets are from the Almighty God of the Jews and Christians. How do you think he can reasonably prove Science from his satanic verses called the Quran.
Lets ,just keep on exposing the truth with the hope that our listeners will see the light of the Gospel of Christ and get saved. Not necessary for the sake of this guy Fairoz. He looks like the type that blow up himself and others in a suicide attack on infidels and immediately land in paradise where 72 virgins will be waiting for him for his deluded dream of paradise bedmatics.
Cheers.
I don’t think this guy Fairoz reads our post and understands it appears his brain is completely dead. Imaging those his reoccurring questions without reasonable rebuttals of those scriptures but kept on saying no proofs, of Similarity between Moses and Jesus and Jesus as God yet he can reasonably refute those scriptures.
Fairoz cannot even give us proofs that the Quran and his prophets are from the Almighty God of the Jews and Christians. How do you think he can reasonably prove Science from his satanic verses called the Quran.
Lets ,just keep on exposing the truth with the hope that our listeners will see the light of the Gospel of Christ and get saved. Not necessary for the sake of this guy Fairoz. He looks like the type that blow up himself and others in a suicide attack on infidels and immediately land in paradise where 72 virgins will be waiting for him for his deluded dream of paradise bedmatics.
Cheers.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 14, 2011
Please the above post was not meant for the Administrator is reviewing your own
I hope he will release it soon. thanks
I hope he will release it soon. thanks
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 14, 2011
Atheism is inconsistent on morality. Without an absolute moral guideline an individual's opinion becomes law.So is theology. Is there a consistency in moral questions between the Old and New Testaments? Indeed, within the Old Testament or the New Testament, there are inconsistencies. Atheism itself is not so much a moral doctrine, it concerns exclusively with the question of belief in God. But Atheists, Humanists, Agnostics, Skeptics et al. believe in shaping our own ethical standards, which will be constantly scrutinized as we understand the world better. With absolute morality of the Bible, we could never abolish slavery, could we? Neither could we even make efforts to erase Antisemitism!!
Also in a purely materialistic universe, nothing that is immaterial should exist right? Materialistic atheism cannot account for anything immaterial which makes laws of logic inconsistent with this world view.There is no way of knowing that. And in our understanding of "existence", immaterials cannot be things, neither be connected to the idea of "existence". Existence comes into play in cases of materials, things, entities.
In this world there are immaterial things that exist ,such as the laws of logic. These laws of logic are not made of matter or energy.Logic is a means of explaining the material things, happenings and nothing else. It's just like mathematics, which is a quantitative expression of material events. Without a material world, logic, as we know it, would not exist, neither would maths? So, the immaterials need not come into play when we talk about logic.
In a world where everything is made by random chance we would have no reason to trust the laws of physics, because they would be just as random as the universe in which they exist. In this type of random chance universe it would be unwise to trust them because you never know when they could just randomly reverse themselves or cease to exit altogether.We do not, for certain, yet know how the universe came about, but we do know that the universe we live in are governed by pretty consistent laws of physics (not by a whimsical deity), which has enabled us to do the unimaginable -- from how we are communicating right now to missions to the Moon and Mars, and much more would come. Our salvation doesn't certainly lie in Jesus' or the Pope's (alleged) miracles, but in the miracle of science. One, who denies it, should go back to the Dark Age. And if we ever be able to know how the universe came about, it will come through science, not through scripture.
Do you have an answer for having immaterial things exist in a purely material universe? Just think about that one for a while.This has been answered above. The idea of "existence" is incompatible with any perceived immaterial. Immaterials doesn't need "existence".
written by An Infidel , August 14, 2011
The single biggest proof that God does not exist, is the existence of Islam
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 15, 2011
This people wanted judgment based on the twisted law of God which the Pharisees used to load it over the people. But Jesus was not a Pharisee but the Son of God full of the Grace and mercy of God. He did not come to kill and destroy but to give life in abundance. He came with the gospel of salvation for the sinners, for the sick and for the oppressed by Satan.
All sinners can now come and receive mercy and forgiveness for their sins because he has made atonement for their sins with his own blood, he came for people like this woman and anyone who come to this realization that he or she is a sinner and cannot save himself or herself can come to God through him. And God will pardon and grant the person eternal life.
Even you sir, if you know that you cannot save yourself from sin Jesus can save you
Cheers.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 15, 2011
You Qoute "And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge, and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement". Q 31:6
The normal threat of chastisement Mohammed use to deceived his desert Arab folks in order to steal their property, gods, children and women. You are joking my brain is intact for your information and don't think such empty threat will affect my brain not to reasoning properly again like the virus in those threat has affected. By the grace of God I am covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.
I suggest you visit the thread I am making some wonderful revelation to your brother Fairoz but could not understand because he is brain-dead with Islamic garbage called the Quran. Why not team of up together to refute the overwhelming evidences of trinity concept both in the Old and the New Testament which no intelligent persons can refute.
Let me see whether you can see the shadow of Trinity as preached by Moses here Gen 1:26, 18:1-17
and Isaiah in Isaiah 7:14,9:6 Micah in Mic 5:2 John the Baptist in John 3:31-36 what of the final revelation of Trinity as preached by Jesus in John 10:30, Matt 28:18-19 not to mention those of Apostolic teachings in the Act and in the Epistles. These are scriptures that you cannot fault on trinity if your brain is functioning well.
But your brother Fairoz wants to see the word trinity in those verses and the word Bible before his small brain can function. Why not help such people out instead of trying to be the Advocate of Jesus of whom you do not even know nor accept his offer of salvation which is free. Think about it
The normal threat of chastisement Mohammed use to deceived his desert Arab folks in order to steal their property, gods, children and women. You are joking my brain is intact for your information and don't think such empty threat will affect my brain not to reasoning properly again like the virus in those threat has affected. By the grace of God I am covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.
I suggest you visit the thread I am making some wonderful revelation to your brother Fairoz but could not understand because he is brain-dead with Islamic garbage called the Quran. Why not team of up together to refute the overwhelming evidences of trinity concept both in the Old and the New Testament which no intelligent persons can refute.
Let me see whether you can see the shadow of Trinity as preached by Moses here Gen 1:26, 18:1-17
and Isaiah in Isaiah 7:14,9:6 Micah in Mic 5:2 John the Baptist in John 3:31-36 what of the final revelation of Trinity as preached by Jesus in John 10:30, Matt 28:18-19 not to mention those of Apostolic teachings in the Act and in the Epistles. These are scriptures that you cannot fault on trinity if your brain is functioning well.
But your brother Fairoz wants to see the word trinity in those verses and the word Bible before his small brain can function. Why not help such people out instead of trying to be the Advocate of Jesus of whom you do not even know nor accept his offer of salvation which is free. Think about it
written by Truth Sayer , August 15, 2011
1.Sahih Muslim Book 020, Hadith Number 4626.
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace upon him) said: Allah has undertaken to look after the affairs of one who goes out to fight in His way believing in Him and affirming the truth of His Apostles. He is committed to His care that he will either admit him to Paradise or bring him back to his home from where he set out with a reward or (his share of) booty. By the Being in Whose Hand is the life of Muhammad. If a person gets wounded in the way of Allah, he will come on the Day of Judgment with his wound in the same condition as it was when it was first inflicted; its colour being the colour of blood but its smell will be the smell of musk. By, the being in whose hand is Muhammad’s life, if it were not to be too hard upon the Muslims. I would not lag behind any expedition which is going to fight in the cause of Allah. But I do not have abundant means to provide them (the Mujahids) with riding beasts, nor have they (i.e. all of them) abundant means (to provide themselves with all the means of Jihad) so that they could he left behind. By the being in whose hand is Muhammad’s lap, I love to fight in the way of Allah and be killed, to fight and again be killed and to fight again and be killed.
Now a Jihadist lost his P**** in jihad or his testicles. Will he get 72 sisters or houris in heaven for he will enter heaven in the same condition he had his wounds inflicted. If he lost his limbs will he carried on stretcher or a wheel chair by the houris. Isn’t this injustice where non believers and infidels’ walk into heaven and Jihadists enter on wheelchairs and stretchers.
Isn’t it hilarious that musk will be flowing out from the hole where there used to be a pole before.
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace upon him) said: Allah has undertaken to look after the affairs of one who goes out to fight in His way believing in Him and affirming the truth of His Apostles. He is committed to His care that he will either admit him to Paradise or bring him back to his home from where he set out with a reward or (his share of) booty. By the Being in Whose Hand is the life of Muhammad. If a person gets wounded in the way of Allah, he will come on the Day of Judgment with his wound in the same condition as it was when it was first inflicted; its colour being the colour of blood but its smell will be the smell of musk. By, the being in whose hand is Muhammad’s life, if it were not to be too hard upon the Muslims. I would not lag behind any expedition which is going to fight in the cause of Allah. But I do not have abundant means to provide them (the Mujahids) with riding beasts, nor have they (i.e. all of them) abundant means (to provide themselves with all the means of Jihad) so that they could he left behind. By the being in whose hand is Muhammad’s lap, I love to fight in the way of Allah and be killed, to fight and again be killed and to fight again and be killed.
Now a Jihadist lost his P**** in jihad or his testicles. Will he get 72 sisters or houris in heaven for he will enter heaven in the same condition he had his wounds inflicted. If he lost his limbs will he carried on stretcher or a wheel chair by the houris. Isn’t this injustice where non believers and infidels’ walk into heaven and Jihadists enter on wheelchairs and stretchers.
Isn’t it hilarious that musk will be flowing out from the hole where there used to be a pole before.
written by Truth Sayer , August 15, 2011
35:8
Sahih International
Then is one to whom the evil of his deed has been made attractive so he considers it good [like one rightly guided]? For indeed, Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself perish over them in regret. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do.
Muhsin Khan
Is he, then, to whom the evil of his deeds made fairseeming, so that he considers it as good (equal to one who is rightly guided)? Verily, Allah sends astray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So destroy not yourself (O Muhammad SAW) in sorrow for them. Truly, Allah is the AllKnower of what they do!
Pickthall
Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe)? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!
Yusuf Ali
Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!
Shakir
What! is he whose evil deed is made fairseeming to him so much so that he considers it good? Now surely Allah makes err whom He pleases and guides aright whom He pleases, so let not your soul waste away in grief for them; surely Allah is Cognizant of what they do
Dr. Ghali
So, is he (righteous), the odiousness of whose deed (s) had been adorned (i.e., made attractive) for him, so that he sees them as fair (deeds)? Then surely Allah leads into error whomever He decides, and guides whomever He decides; so do not let yourself go away in regrets for them. Surely Allah is Ever-Knowing of whatever they work out.
Sahih International
Then is one to whom the evil of his deed has been made attractive so he considers it good [like one rightly guided]? For indeed, Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself perish over them in regret. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do.
Muhsin Khan
Is he, then, to whom the evil of his deeds made fairseeming, so that he considers it as good (equal to one who is rightly guided)? Verily, Allah sends astray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So destroy not yourself (O Muhammad SAW) in sorrow for them. Truly, Allah is the AllKnower of what they do!
Pickthall
Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe)? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!
Yusuf Ali
Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!
Shakir
What! is he whose evil deed is made fairseeming to him so much so that he considers it good? Now surely Allah makes err whom He pleases and guides aright whom He pleases, so let not your soul waste away in grief for them; surely Allah is Cognizant of what they do
Dr. Ghali
So, is he (righteous), the odiousness of whose deed (s) had been adorned (i.e., made attractive) for him, so that he sees them as fair (deeds)? Then surely Allah leads into error whomever He decides, and guides whomever He decides; so do not let yourself go away in regrets for them. Surely Allah is Ever-Knowing of whatever they work out.
written by Truth Sayer , August 15, 2011
As seen above Allah misleeds Jihadists. So whose test is it. Jihadists Allahahs or who suffer at hands of Jihadists.
written by Truth Sayer , August 15, 2011
1. The day of judgement will start in evening.
How can it be a day as night starts in the evening.
2. Which evening and where does it start as earth is round not flat.
So the day of judgement assumes earth is flat therefore this evening will strike middle east or the birth place of Islam. As it will either be night or day at other places we can safely rejoice that we are safe from this heaven and hell testing.
I am afraid all muslims outside this region will not be allowed the pleasures offered in heaven though
How can it be a day as night starts in the evening.
2. Which evening and where does it start as earth is round not flat.
So the day of judgement assumes earth is flat therefore this evening will strike middle east or the birth place of Islam. As it will either be night or day at other places we can safely rejoice that we are safe from this heaven and hell testing.
I am afraid all muslims outside this region will not be allowed the pleasures offered in heaven though
written by duh_swami , August 15, 2011
All evil is perpetrated by humans...Nature is tough, but it is not evil...Tree's and plants do no evil, animals do no evil, only human do evil...
Humans indulge in evil of some kind every day...
Most of the time, they don't realize what they are doing is evil...If they do, they rationalize it, or lie about it...Because humans created religion, evil is built into the fabric...All acts of violence are evil unless they are in 'legitimate' self defense...It is evil to bring pain suffering and death to another human, or by extension to any living creature...But 'The thought is the father of the deed'...So evil is not just an external act, but stems from what one is thinking...So what is it that shapes the thinking? If it is religion, you will think evil, with the desire to punish, as your religious god punishes...All religions are tarnished with evil because of the threat of punishment, or actual punishment...
The people of the Bible and other religions except Islam, have evolved, for the most part, from inflicting punishment, heretics are not burned at the stake or tortured in dungeons...
But they still label others as sinners and promise the punishments of hell for them...Because of this the pious Bible believers, indulging themselves in supremacist bigotry, are practicing evil without realizing it...
The Quran is a whole book of punishments, most of them brutally depraved...Those who think in terms of Islam, either participate in evil directly, or support it indirectly...After all, evil punishments are godly, so we must emulate or obey them...Because Allah erases human compassion in most cases, and advocates Muslims carry out depraved punishments in his name, Allah and everything to do with it, is a mind destroyer...installing evil in place of good...
and then declaring it is the evil that is good, when in reality, there is nothing good about it...
Humans indulge in evil of some kind every day...
Most of the time, they don't realize what they are doing is evil...If they do, they rationalize it, or lie about it...Because humans created religion, evil is built into the fabric...All acts of violence are evil unless they are in 'legitimate' self defense...It is evil to bring pain suffering and death to another human, or by extension to any living creature...But 'The thought is the father of the deed'...So evil is not just an external act, but stems from what one is thinking...So what is it that shapes the thinking? If it is religion, you will think evil, with the desire to punish, as your religious god punishes...All religions are tarnished with evil because of the threat of punishment, or actual punishment...
The people of the Bible and other religions except Islam, have evolved, for the most part, from inflicting punishment, heretics are not burned at the stake or tortured in dungeons...
But they still label others as sinners and promise the punishments of hell for them...Because of this the pious Bible believers, indulging themselves in supremacist bigotry, are practicing evil without realizing it...
The Quran is a whole book of punishments, most of them brutally depraved...Those who think in terms of Islam, either participate in evil directly, or support it indirectly...After all, evil punishments are godly, so we must emulate or obey them...Because Allah erases human compassion in most cases, and advocates Muslims carry out depraved punishments in his name, Allah and everything to do with it, is a mind destroyer...installing evil in place of good...
and then declaring it is the evil that is good, when in reality, there is nothing good about it...
written by Cerebrum123 , August 15, 2011
Slavery and antisemitism are not laws prescribed by the Bible. Jesus taught that people should love their neighbors as themselves ,and this included even the Samaritans which the Jews at the time hated. This teaching alone goes against antisemitism. Also slavery in the OT wasn't what people usually think about when they hear the word "slavery". The kind of slavery in the OT was actually a lot more like an indentured servant. These people were very poor ,and would sell themselves to someone richer in order to work for food. Also this type of slavery was highly regulated ,so as to avoid abusing the system. One of these rules was that you had to let such a person go after their sixth year with their owner. Unless they wanted to stay with that person. In that particular case there was a deal with piercing the person's ear. Like I said earlier without an absolute moral authority an individual's choice ,or a majority rule become law ,and this can lead to some very nasty things just like in Germany with Hitler. Hitler had two motivations for the things he did 1 was his hatred of Jews ,and 2 was his plan for a master race which was inspired by Darwinian evolution and eugenics. He used these things to justify his actions ,and Germany swallowed it hook , line , and sinker.These same ideas influenced Stalin ,Mao ,and Lenin. Mankind is inherently evil ,and when man's opinion becomes supreme then the laws they make with these opinions becomes just as corrupt. You are right math is another immaterial concept ,and it also could not exist in a universe where only matter exists. Without these things science which you deem as salvation ,becomes impossible due to the fact that these things are necessary in order to perform the scientific method. Things that are immaterial can exist when you approach things from a Biblical perspective. God is a logical God who upholds His creation in a logical way. He also created us in His image making us also capable of logic (although we do not always use it).God also promised to continue to uphold the universe in a logical and consistent way. Your basic answer to my questions about immaterial things existing in a purely material universe ,was basically that it doesn't matter. Well they do exist in our universe ,and our universe does have other things that exist that are immaterial. Immaterial does not mean non-existent either ,it only means that it is not a physical entity. You are right when you say that atheism isn't a moral doctrine ,but when you start with it as your worldview it affects your ideas of what morals are. A person's presuppositions affect everything they do ,and that makes it important when it comes to things like ethics.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 15, 2011
You are right I used the wrong sura of the Quran to put my point through here are some better one. Fight against those among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, until they are subdued and pay jizyah (tax on non-Muslims) ... (9:29-32
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). (9:123)
Here is a good article on Jihad in Islam http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/jihad.htm
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). (9:123)
Here is a good article on Jihad in Islam http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/jihad.htm
written by Archpagan , August 15, 2011
Cerebrum123: You said 'Mankind is inherently evil ,and when man's opinion becomes supreme then the laws they make with these opinions becomes just as corrupt.' I would like to apply this principle to you and your Christianity.
Clement: If you commit crime even Jesus' father can not save you from the long hands of law. Please keep your feet on earth.
The worst principle on earth is fighting for the cause of God. God is omnipotent. He needs neither any fighter nor any advocate. God's relationship with his creation should be entirely limited in the personal domain.
Clement: If you commit crime even Jesus' father can not save you from the long hands of law. Please keep your feet on earth.
The worst principle on earth is fighting for the cause of God. God is omnipotent. He needs neither any fighter nor any advocate. God's relationship with his creation should be entirely limited in the personal domain.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 15, 2011
Cerebrum123. "You are right I used the wrong sura of the Quran to put my point through..."
It was rather a verse of sura. The other verses you quoted from sura 9 have the same context. My answer for 9:5 holds good there.
Please also note beautiful points like 'give them safe passage' 'you have no justification to continue fight', do not cross limits etc. You will feel lighter.
Also please avoid translators alterations like 'Jew and Christians' in brackets () and restrict to original text. Otherwise the message will be altered.
It is my candid belief Cerebrum that no religion will teach obnoxious. Religions are to reform.
here are some better one. Fight against those among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, until they are subdued and pay jizyah (tax on non-Muslims) ... (9:29-32
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). (9:123)
It was rather a verse of sura. The other verses you quoted from sura 9 have the same context. My answer for 9:5 holds good there.
Please also note beautiful points like 'give them safe passage' 'you have no justification to continue fight', do not cross limits etc. You will feel lighter.
Also please avoid translators alterations like 'Jew and Christians' in brackets () and restrict to original text. Otherwise the message will be altered.
It is my candid belief Cerebrum that no religion will teach obnoxious. Religions are to reform.
here are some better one. Fight against those among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, until they are subdued and pay jizyah (tax on non-Muslims) ... (9:29-32
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). (9:123)
written by Reed Wilson. , August 15, 2011
Sorry! I forgot to delete your text in my post above. I regret inconvenience of readers.
written by duh_swami , August 15, 2011
Reed always tries to make verses like 9:5 into a reaction to a isolated event, and only used at that time...In reality these are 'presidents' to be used whenever a similar situation is occurring...
It would seem that these verses only encourage Muslims to defend themselves, but it does not mention that Islam is/was usually the aggressor, so they may be only fighting those who are fighting them, but most likely it was the Muslims who started it...Muslims are always the victims even when they are the perpetrators...and it is always kuffar mistreating them...That's the way it was in Mohammad's day, and that is the way it is today...Islam is today under attack by kuffar ...just ask a Muslim about that...Resisting Allah, refusing to believe in Allah, is 'warring with Allah'...That's why 9:5 and other war verses are in use today...They are 'presidents' that have been used through out Islamic history...
If it's the case that these demands by Allah were one time events, then Islam at the present time has no way of defending itself and has no laws to speak of...Of all the 160+ war verses in Quran, only a few declared war in Allah's cause, the other 150+ are the how to do it's...9:5 and 9:29 are not the only ones...'Presidents', not just history...
It would seem that these verses only encourage Muslims to defend themselves, but it does not mention that Islam is/was usually the aggressor, so they may be only fighting those who are fighting them, but most likely it was the Muslims who started it...Muslims are always the victims even when they are the perpetrators...and it is always kuffar mistreating them...That's the way it was in Mohammad's day, and that is the way it is today...Islam is today under attack by kuffar ...just ask a Muslim about that...Resisting Allah, refusing to believe in Allah, is 'warring with Allah'...That's why 9:5 and other war verses are in use today...They are 'presidents' that have been used through out Islamic history...
If it's the case that these demands by Allah were one time events, then Islam at the present time has no way of defending itself and has no laws to speak of...Of all the 160+ war verses in Quran, only a few declared war in Allah's cause, the other 150+ are the how to do it's...9:5 and 9:29 are not the only ones...'Presidents', not just history...
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
God can do anything. Therefore he can kill himself. So he killed himself and gave his throne to Satan. Now satan rules this world and heavens for all we do is hit ourselves against wall trying to have some rational arguments with Mussis and the likes or CereBum
written by duh_swami , August 15, 2011
Excuse me for using the wrong word 'president', it should be 'precedent'...I have been thinking about presidents a lot lately...
written by Cerebrum123 , August 15, 2011
If I commit a crime I deserve to be punished by the law.Christians are people to ,and are imperfect. When someone becomes a Christian they become a "new creature" ,and with the help of the Holy Spirit fight against their sinful nature. You are right God's relationship should be in the personal domain. That's what being a Christian is all about. I have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ ,and would like others to have this as well. This is a major reason I post on this website.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
Lets assume for a moment in religion XY and Z the god is defined as
- God is just, kind, perfect
- This life is our first and last life
- God is testing us here
- Based on the marks we obtain in this test, we will go to either Heaven or Hell.
The differences between various sects of X, Y and Z lie only in
- the testing criteria and the description of Heaven and Hell
- the level of fanaticism required for passing this Test.
But the basic construct is same – One Life which is Test, God is best examiner, and Result is Pass (Heaven) or Fail (Hell).
Let us evaluate this basic construct critically through a series of examples, and decide whether it is logically plausible.
- God is just, kind, perfect
- This life is our first and last life
- God is testing us here
- Based on the marks we obtain in this test, we will go to either Heaven or Hell.
The differences between various sects of X, Y and Z lie only in
- the testing criteria and the description of Heaven and Hell
- the level of fanaticism required for passing this Test.
But the basic construct is same – One Life which is Test, God is best examiner, and Result is Pass (Heaven) or Fail (Hell).
Let us evaluate this basic construct critically through a series of examples, and decide whether it is logically plausible.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
1.
Many children die in the wombs. Now as per Islam or Christianity would they go to Heaven or Hell? Most scholars of Islam and Christianity say they go to Heaven because they never did anything wrong in their lives.
Now my question is “Did they even have an option to do anything wrong?”
Moreover one does not have to be Muslim or Christian to go to heaven within this criteria.
Is God not being partial by clearing one candidate even without starting his examination, and another one has to keep giving test after test continuously for 100 years or so! Isnt god being unjust.
Many children die in the wombs. Now as per Islam or Christianity would they go to Heaven or Hell? Most scholars of Islam and Christianity say they go to Heaven because they never did anything wrong in their lives.
Now my question is “Did they even have an option to do anything wrong?”
Moreover one does not have to be Muslim or Christian to go to heaven within this criteria.
Is God not being partial by clearing one candidate even without starting his examination, and another one has to keep giving test after test continuously for 100 years or so! Isnt god being unjust.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
2.
Many children die young before they reach maturity. Even the wrong acts they do are not out of willful desire to do something wrong but out of innocence. Would they reach Heaven or Hell?
If they reach Heaven, then why does God not kill everyone in their childhood and ensure a seat in Heaven for them? Is God not being unjust and imperfect?
If they reach Hell, what was their fault?
Say twins were born. Both lived same innocent life for first 3 years. Then one died. He will go straight to Heaven. The other remained innocent for next few years, then got into bad company, became an Apostate/Kafir and died at age of 60. Now he should go to Hell, as per the Books.
Is this not God’s crime that he made him live for 60 years and not his brother? Had he killed both at same age of 3 years, both would have gone to Heaven!
So if there is one life and permanent Heaven/Hell, it proves God is unjust
Many children die young before they reach maturity. Even the wrong acts they do are not out of willful desire to do something wrong but out of innocence. Would they reach Heaven or Hell?
If they reach Heaven, then why does God not kill everyone in their childhood and ensure a seat in Heaven for them? Is God not being unjust and imperfect?
If they reach Hell, what was their fault?
Say twins were born. Both lived same innocent life for first 3 years. Then one died. He will go straight to Heaven. The other remained innocent for next few years, then got into bad company, became an Apostate/Kafir and died at age of 60. Now he should go to Hell, as per the Books.
Is this not God’s crime that he made him live for 60 years and not his brother? Had he killed both at same age of 3 years, both would have gone to Heaven!
So if there is one life and permanent Heaven/Hell, it proves God is unjust
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
3.
A person is born insane. His mental faculties have not developed beyond say, age of five. But he lives a long life. Will he go to Hell or Heaven?
Again the same questions as above arises. And result in either God being unjust or concept of one life as test to enter Heaven/Hell being wrong.
A person is born insane. His mental faculties have not developed beyond say, age of five. But he lives a long life. Will he go to Hell or Heaven?
Again the same questions as above arises. And result in either God being unjust or concept of one life as test to enter Heaven/Hell being wrong.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
4.
One person is born in family of Hindu, another in home of an atheist, one as a Muslim and another as a Christian. Based on what they imbibe from their respective societies, they become a devout Hindu, Atheist, Muslim and Christian respectively.
Now as per Islam, only those who believe in Quran and Muhammad can go to Heaven. As per Christians, only those who surrender to Jesus can go to Heaven.
So who will go where?
Definitely the Hindu and Atheist are bound to go to Hell. Now my question is “Was God not unjust by not giving everyone birth in family of Muslim or Christian, whosoever is correct?”
What is my fault if I was born and brought up in a Hindu or Atheist family and never got any reason to be convinced by Quran or Bible? Why has God planned my stay in Hell from advance?
One person is born in family of Hindu, another in home of an atheist, one as a Muslim and another as a Christian. Based on what they imbibe from their respective societies, they become a devout Hindu, Atheist, Muslim and Christian respectively.
Now as per Islam, only those who believe in Quran and Muhammad can go to Heaven. As per Christians, only those who surrender to Jesus can go to Heaven.
So who will go where?
Definitely the Hindu and Atheist are bound to go to Hell. Now my question is “Was God not unjust by not giving everyone birth in family of Muslim or Christian, whosoever is correct?”
What is my fault if I was born and brought up in a Hindu or Atheist family and never got any reason to be convinced by Quran or Bible? Why has God planned my stay in Hell from advance?
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
5.
A person who is devout follower of Islam believes that children go to Heaven because that is what scholars teach him. So as a noble example of self-sacrifice, he starts killing children. His logic is that, even if I have to burn in Hell forever, I should do my best to ensure that these innocent children get reservation for Paradise!
Thus he is doing a selfless social service. Will he go to Heaven or Hell?
If he goes to Heaven, then Allah or God is setting a wrong example for people to follow.
If he goes to Hell, then selflessness is bad.
Further, since no one will actually know who will go where until doomsday comes, it means God has already spread enough confusion to motivate many innocent selfless social workers to follow the path of infanticide and killing!
A person who is devout follower of Islam believes that children go to Heaven because that is what scholars teach him. So as a noble example of self-sacrifice, he starts killing children. His logic is that, even if I have to burn in Hell forever, I should do my best to ensure that these innocent children get reservation for Paradise!
Thus he is doing a selfless social service. Will he go to Heaven or Hell?
If he goes to Heaven, then Allah or God is setting a wrong example for people to follow.
If he goes to Hell, then selflessness is bad.
Further, since no one will actually know who will go where until doomsday comes, it means God has already spread enough confusion to motivate many innocent selfless social workers to follow the path of infanticide and killing!
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
6.
An unbiased testing environment will demand that
- first the subject be taught to everyone with same facilities,
- then they should be evaluated under same testing environment.
Accordingly, God should have first imbibed Quran or Bible, whichever is true, in hearts of all people, then given them birth in same types of family, allowed them to grow up in same place and in same conditions, and only then should have conducted the test.
But in this world, we find the testing environment to be as diverse as one can possibly imagine. And yet God is claimed to be perfect, just and kind!
Most religious scholars answer this paradox by saying that God or Allah knows how to decide the fate by whatever acts people have done in their respective lives based on whatever environment they had to live in. This seems to be like God having something like the Duckworth-Lewis formula which is used to decide winner of an interrupted cricket match.
Now this raises few doubts:
One,
if indeed God is perfect and He has such a great scoring formula, why did he create the entire drama and wasted so many years? He should have used the formula in the very beginning and directly sent everyone to either Heaven or Hell!
Two,
If the formula works on a stillborn child or a fetus, why did he unnecessarily bias against certain folks and had them face troubles of long lives? After all He had created everyone equal to start with!
Three,
The test seems to have discrete results. As per Quran, all Heaven-goers would get 72 virgins each. There seems to be no concept of variation of results as per deeds. Some books do talk of several varieties of Heaven, but these merely increase a binary solution to a finite number solution (Instead of one Heaven and one Hell, there are now say 10 Heavens and 10 Hells). But still there is no continuous gradation. It is like a continuous function equation is giving a non-zero discrete answer, which is mathematically improbable
An unbiased testing environment will demand that
- first the subject be taught to everyone with same facilities,
- then they should be evaluated under same testing environment.
Accordingly, God should have first imbibed Quran or Bible, whichever is true, in hearts of all people, then given them birth in same types of family, allowed them to grow up in same place and in same conditions, and only then should have conducted the test.
But in this world, we find the testing environment to be as diverse as one can possibly imagine. And yet God is claimed to be perfect, just and kind!
Most religious scholars answer this paradox by saying that God or Allah knows how to decide the fate by whatever acts people have done in their respective lives based on whatever environment they had to live in. This seems to be like God having something like the Duckworth-Lewis formula which is used to decide winner of an interrupted cricket match.
Now this raises few doubts:
One,
if indeed God is perfect and He has such a great scoring formula, why did he create the entire drama and wasted so many years? He should have used the formula in the very beginning and directly sent everyone to either Heaven or Hell!
Two,
If the formula works on a stillborn child or a fetus, why did he unnecessarily bias against certain folks and had them face troubles of long lives? After all He had created everyone equal to start with!
Three,
The test seems to have discrete results. As per Quran, all Heaven-goers would get 72 virgins each. There seems to be no concept of variation of results as per deeds. Some books do talk of several varieties of Heaven, but these merely increase a binary solution to a finite number solution (Instead of one Heaven and one Hell, there are now say 10 Heavens and 10 Hells). But still there is no continuous gradation. It is like a continuous function equation is giving a non-zero discrete answer, which is mathematically improbable
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
7.
People seem to be retaining their youthful bodies in Heaven. Now will they be able to change their looks if they want to? What about children and fetus who go to Heaven? Will they go as adults? Will they receive a training in Hebrew or Arabic which is supposed to be the language of Heaven? If indeed so, why did God not make only one single language in earth also?
People seem to be retaining their youthful bodies in Heaven. Now will they be able to change their looks if they want to? What about children and fetus who go to Heaven? Will they go as adults? Will they receive a training in Hebrew or Arabic which is supposed to be the language of Heaven? If indeed so, why did God not make only one single language in earth also?
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
8.
What about animals – reptiles, insects, mammals and other creatures? Will they go to Heaven or Hell? The earlier belief was that animals do not have souls. But now that it has been amply proved that at least the higher animals feel pain and pleasure like humans, the opinion is divided.
Some claim that they will also go to Heaven. Others say that Allah knows the best!
In case they go to Heaven, why did God or Allah bias against others and not gave them birth as cockroaches and goats? That way they too would have got straight passport to Heaven!
In case they go to Hell, what was their fault?
Also, will they live like cockroaches and goats, or will they get human body? Will their intelligence be enhanced? Or they remain equally dumb as in earth?
What about animals – reptiles, insects, mammals and other creatures? Will they go to Heaven or Hell? The earlier belief was that animals do not have souls. But now that it has been amply proved that at least the higher animals feel pain and pleasure like humans, the opinion is divided.
Some claim that they will also go to Heaven. Others say that Allah knows the best!
In case they go to Heaven, why did God or Allah bias against others and not gave them birth as cockroaches and goats? That way they too would have got straight passport to Heaven!
In case they go to Hell, what was their fault?
Also, will they live like cockroaches and goats, or will they get human body? Will their intelligence be enhanced? Or they remain equally dumb as in earth?
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
9.
Heaven and Hell seem to be permanent. It will continue forever, as per these religions. Now if that be so, God’s injustice becomes even more prominent in light of above points.
Based on one single test, God put certain people directly in Heaven without testing them at all! Others he tested for so many years. Some he gave birth in homes of Apostates, some as children of Prophet himself.
Is this not gravest cheating?
God is the most unjust and biggest cheater of these stories of there being one single exam and Heaven/Hell forever be true.
A corollary:
What would happen if people start fighting or cheating or adultery in Heaven? Will they be shifted to Hell? Or will they be permitted to do whatever they want and yet remain in Heaven?
The Holy Books seem to be silent on this!
Heaven and Hell seem to be permanent. It will continue forever, as per these religions. Now if that be so, God’s injustice becomes even more prominent in light of above points.
Based on one single test, God put certain people directly in Heaven without testing them at all! Others he tested for so many years. Some he gave birth in homes of Apostates, some as children of Prophet himself.
Is this not gravest cheating?
God is the most unjust and biggest cheater of these stories of there being one single exam and Heaven/Hell forever be true.
A corollary:
What would happen if people start fighting or cheating or adultery in Heaven? Will they be shifted to Hell? Or will they be permitted to do whatever they want and yet remain in Heaven?
The Holy Books seem to be silent on this!
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
10.
Recently there was news that a 2 month old baby was raped.
Now who is being tested? The victim or the rapist?
If its test of victim, is it in a position to respond?
If its test of the rapist, why the hell did God make the poor little baby as a scapegoat?
God seems nothing more than a crazy, stupid, psychopathic dictator if these stories be true.
Recently there was news that a 2 month old baby was raped.
Now who is being tested? The victim or the rapist?
If its test of victim, is it in a position to respond?
If its test of the rapist, why the hell did God make the poor little baby as a scapegoat?
God seems nothing more than a crazy, stupid, psychopathic dictator if these stories be true.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
11.
Almost all books of Eastern philosophies refute the concept of one birth. They believe in life being a continuous cycle not interrupted by death. Its broadly termed the Theory of Karma.
Now if this were not true, why did God act like a Kafir/ Apostate and confuse minds of people who were born in Eastern part of the globe, from very childhood.
As per Bible and Quran, God has done great miracles in past including burning entire towns and villages, and giving birth to prophets like Jesus without need of a human father. If He can do so much, why did he not burn these books of East forever? After all He himself laid the criteria that those who refuse to believe in Jesus or Muhammad will go to Hell! Ideally he should have stopped the creation of these books in the first place!
Almost all books of Eastern philosophies refute the concept of one birth. They believe in life being a continuous cycle not interrupted by death. Its broadly termed the Theory of Karma.
Now if this were not true, why did God act like a Kafir/ Apostate and confuse minds of people who were born in Eastern part of the globe, from very childhood.
As per Bible and Quran, God has done great miracles in past including burning entire towns and villages, and giving birth to prophets like Jesus without need of a human father. If He can do so much, why did he not burn these books of East forever? After all He himself laid the criteria that those who refuse to believe in Jesus or Muhammad will go to Hell! Ideally he should have stopped the creation of these books in the first place!
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
12.
In Muslim texts, Muhammad has foretold that he sees Heaven full of men and Hell full of women. This means that there is already reservations made on basis of gender. Is this not match-fixing by the whimsical dictator named God or Allah? (Refer KITAB AL-RIQAQ, Chapter 1, Sahih Bukhari Book 36, Number 6596, Book 36, Number 6597, Book 36, Number 6600)
13.
Also, as per Islam, each male will get 4 faithful wives in Heaven. But if Heaven if full of only men, as per previous claim of Muhammad, does it not mean that Heaven would be a homosexual paradise? Because with majority being males, it is mathematically impossible for everyone to get 4 female wives each. And if homosexuality is the only way in Paradise, why condemn it on earth? Perhaps the only women who go to Paradise may be the lesbians (because straight women cannot enjoy 72 virgins that would be allotted to them!)
In Muslim texts, Muhammad has foretold that he sees Heaven full of men and Hell full of women. This means that there is already reservations made on basis of gender. Is this not match-fixing by the whimsical dictator named God or Allah? (Refer KITAB AL-RIQAQ, Chapter 1, Sahih Bukhari Book 36, Number 6596, Book 36, Number 6597, Book 36, Number 6600)
13.
Also, as per Islam, each male will get 4 faithful wives in Heaven. But if Heaven if full of only men, as per previous claim of Muhammad, does it not mean that Heaven would be a homosexual paradise? Because with majority being males, it is mathematically impossible for everyone to get 4 female wives each. And if homosexuality is the only way in Paradise, why condemn it on earth? Perhaps the only women who go to Paradise may be the lesbians (because straight women cannot enjoy 72 virgins that would be allotted to them!)
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
14.
What about terrorists who were brainwashed from very childhood to do Jehad? Will people like the 9/11 terrorists go to Heaven or Hell? They were simply brainwashed by fanatics to take up arms to seek Allah!
What about terrorists who were brainwashed from very childhood to do Jehad? Will people like the 9/11 terrorists go to Heaven or Hell? They were simply brainwashed by fanatics to take up arms to seek Allah!
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
15.
If indeed there is only life, why did God create so much of confusion about His original message.
The original Bible is simply not available. Quran was compiled after death of Prophet. And those who compiled were fighting each other to death. How can only rely on such blood-thirsty people to have had the capability to reproduce the original message of God? Further certain verses seem to have been added in Quran out of Satanic influences on Prophet.
If Allah or God is so just, and is giving only one life to compete, why did he create such confusions which no human being can decipher. And then he lays the criteria that unless you are out of this confusion, you will burn in Hell! Not satisfied with this, he further went to condemn certain people to remain away forever from his message!
If indeed there is only life, why did God create so much of confusion about His original message.
The original Bible is simply not available. Quran was compiled after death of Prophet. And those who compiled were fighting each other to death. How can only rely on such blood-thirsty people to have had the capability to reproduce the original message of God? Further certain verses seem to have been added in Quran out of Satanic influences on Prophet.
If Allah or God is so just, and is giving only one life to compete, why did he create such confusions which no human being can decipher. And then he lays the criteria that unless you are out of this confusion, you will burn in Hell! Not satisfied with this, he further went to condemn certain people to remain away forever from his message!
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
16.
Both Islam and Christianity believe that God forgives the sins of one who agrees to accept the respective religion! This means that regardless of whatever you have done, if finally you say sorry, you will go scot-free in Heaven! And if you have been a devout believer but at last moment you say, “I refuse to believe”, he will give you ticket to Hell.
This raises further doubts:
One,
Does it not render the entire life and all its multi-dimensionality and complexity wasteful? The entire life, its efforts, its studies all go for a toss, and what remains is a final yes or no. Is this not against nature?
We all know anger is bad. But still we succumb to anger at times, due to limits of our understanding and our neural programming.
So if someone has been a believer throughout but out of confusion, in last few days of his life, became an apostate, why should he be punished so severely?
And another one, who was apostate forever, why should he be rewarded Heaven despite all the nonsense he thought and did for decades?
No decision is without confusion. The only way to take a right decision without confusion is to know everything and be able to analyze everything. This is impossible for any human. Thus no decision of human can be considered reliable and final.
Thus regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with Quran/ Bible, the decision is full of confusion and based on extremely limited knowledge.
Is God not crazy then to curse one to Hell and another one to Heaven forever, based on a momentary decision which was taken out of ignorance?
Is God not stupid to have designed such a faulty testing mechanism that relies on ignorance of people which will decide the fate of all souls forever?
Two,
Does it not provide an inbuilt motivation mechanism in the system to keep doing all sorts of nonsense throughout the life and say sorry at the end?
We thus, see many becoming saint-like as old age comes to say sorry and go to Heaven. More careful ones do the nonsense, and then confess the same, and go scot-free!
Three,
Why does nature work opposite to God’s method then? Was nature designed by God when he was imperfect, or what is a joint-venture with Satan?
Because in nature, if you commit a mistake, you cannot go scot-free without paying the price.
If you eat lots of sugars and get diabetic, you do not get cured by saying Sorry! You need to undergo the entire treatment process and even then perfect cure is not guaranteed. We do not get strong by saying, Sorry! We do not get back our teeth by saying, Sorry! We do not become scholars by saying, Sorry! We do not master skills by saying, Sorry!
On contrary, in nature, everything happens in a continuous process as per definite laws. There is simply no escape from it. Why does God suddenly become so dismally and so confusingly discrete then!
Both Islam and Christianity believe that God forgives the sins of one who agrees to accept the respective religion! This means that regardless of whatever you have done, if finally you say sorry, you will go scot-free in Heaven! And if you have been a devout believer but at last moment you say, “I refuse to believe”, he will give you ticket to Hell.
This raises further doubts:
One,
Does it not render the entire life and all its multi-dimensionality and complexity wasteful? The entire life, its efforts, its studies all go for a toss, and what remains is a final yes or no. Is this not against nature?
We all know anger is bad. But still we succumb to anger at times, due to limits of our understanding and our neural programming.
So if someone has been a believer throughout but out of confusion, in last few days of his life, became an apostate, why should he be punished so severely?
And another one, who was apostate forever, why should he be rewarded Heaven despite all the nonsense he thought and did for decades?
No decision is without confusion. The only way to take a right decision without confusion is to know everything and be able to analyze everything. This is impossible for any human. Thus no decision of human can be considered reliable and final.
Thus regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with Quran/ Bible, the decision is full of confusion and based on extremely limited knowledge.
Is God not crazy then to curse one to Hell and another one to Heaven forever, based on a momentary decision which was taken out of ignorance?
Is God not stupid to have designed such a faulty testing mechanism that relies on ignorance of people which will decide the fate of all souls forever?
Two,
Does it not provide an inbuilt motivation mechanism in the system to keep doing all sorts of nonsense throughout the life and say sorry at the end?
We thus, see many becoming saint-like as old age comes to say sorry and go to Heaven. More careful ones do the nonsense, and then confess the same, and go scot-free!
Three,
Why does nature work opposite to God’s method then? Was nature designed by God when he was imperfect, or what is a joint-venture with Satan?
Because in nature, if you commit a mistake, you cannot go scot-free without paying the price.
If you eat lots of sugars and get diabetic, you do not get cured by saying Sorry! You need to undergo the entire treatment process and even then perfect cure is not guaranteed. We do not get strong by saying, Sorry! We do not get back our teeth by saying, Sorry! We do not become scholars by saying, Sorry! We do not master skills by saying, Sorry!
On contrary, in nature, everything happens in a continuous process as per definite laws. There is simply no escape from it. Why does God suddenly become so dismally and so confusingly discrete then!
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
17.
If God is just and kind, why does He demand belief in things we can neither see, hear, analyze or feel, for booking our permanent future?
Neither we see God, nor see Him doing the kind of miracles we read in Bible or Quran, nor we witness any Prophets or messengers around, nor we have ever seen any Holy Spirit or Angel, nor we ever see any virgin giving birth to any baby, nor we have seen even trailer of Heaven/ Hell, nor we ever saw the Garden of Eden, nor did we discover the seven/ four skies etc etc.
Yet belief in each of these is necessary to book a seat in Heaven!
And if we do not, we are doomed to Hell forever!
On top of it, God gave us the intelligence to be able to test what is fraud and what is right. In this world, we respect those people more who have more of this intelligence.
But in God’s kingdom, this intelligence is the greatest cause of sin.
Only the blinds will enter the Heaven. Rest shall burn in Hell!
The God’s world is indeed very confusing.
If God is just and kind, why does He demand belief in things we can neither see, hear, analyze or feel, for booking our permanent future?
Neither we see God, nor see Him doing the kind of miracles we read in Bible or Quran, nor we witness any Prophets or messengers around, nor we have ever seen any Holy Spirit or Angel, nor we ever see any virgin giving birth to any baby, nor we have seen even trailer of Heaven/ Hell, nor we ever saw the Garden of Eden, nor did we discover the seven/ four skies etc etc.
Yet belief in each of these is necessary to book a seat in Heaven!
And if we do not, we are doomed to Hell forever!
On top of it, God gave us the intelligence to be able to test what is fraud and what is right. In this world, we respect those people more who have more of this intelligence.
But in God’s kingdom, this intelligence is the greatest cause of sin.
Only the blinds will enter the Heaven. Rest shall burn in Hell!
The God’s world is indeed very confusing.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
God forbids us to eat and certain things on this earth. The same items are available in heaven in abundence for example wine. Why did he not provide the same wine on earth.
On earth the same intoxicat will lead to hell while it is the favorite beverage in heave.
On earth the same intoxicat will lead to hell while it is the favorite beverage in heave.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
Sura 19:71 says all muslims must pass through hell. So whats the point of doing all exercise if they have to pass through Hell. Why did not creat a separate pathway or road.
Now in hell they will be made to queue naed. Both men and women. Men can ogle at the women for thats what they will do in heaven but what about the women who were coverd all life till their bones became brittle due to vitamin D deficinecy.
Now in hell they will be made to queue naed. Both men and women. Men can ogle at the women for thats what they will do in heaven but what about the women who were coverd all life till their bones became brittle due to vitamin D deficinecy.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
There is a hadIs, narrated by ’Aisha, . The Prophet revealed: “The people would be assembled on the Day of Resurrection barefooted, naked and uncircumcised.” ’Aisha asked in alarm, or perhaps in mischief: “Allah’s Messenger, will the male and the female be together on the Day and would be looking at one another?” The Prophet sagaciously replied: “Aisha, the matter would be too serious for them to look to one another” (6844).
So why all the coverup on earth that even the nails and hairs are not visible. God is either a joker or unjust.
So why all the coverup on earth that even the nails and hairs are not visible. God is either a joker or unjust.
written by Truth or Dare , August 15, 2011
God decides that he wants to punish someone. So he inflicts upon him some disease. Now this muslim decides otherwise and does not want to complete the test as designated by the super power God. He goes to clinic and takes medicine, chemotherapy, blood infusion, operation and amputation as recommended by the doctor.
Did he get out of the punishment inflicted by Allah. God is unjust.
Now someone goes to hospital for some treatment and there he gets contaminated blood say HIV. He suffers so who is being tested. Was it his fault and why did God made HIV in the first place. This guy was not a Homo BTW.
So why did god made him and his family suffer for no fault of theirs. Any reason
Did he get out of the punishment inflicted by Allah. God is unjust.
Now someone goes to hospital for some treatment and there he gets contaminated blood say HIV. He suffers so who is being tested. Was it his fault and why did God made HIV in the first place. This guy was not a Homo BTW.
So why did god made him and his family suffer for no fault of theirs. Any reason
written by Reed Wilson. , August 15, 2011
CLEMENT. You write "You assumed the position of an advocate for the Bible when in actual fact you are making a fun of it."
No my friend I don't do that. We are on this site for considerable long time. I try to avoid caviling. I am not allowed to do that.
The story “A Woman Caught In The Act Of Adultery Is Brought To Jesus” appeared in John 8:1-12: It may be known to you that it was expunged from Gospel in the early history of church. God knows what has actually happened.
I wish if I had not taken interest in this debate.
No my friend I don't do that. We are on this site for considerable long time. I try to avoid caviling. I am not allowed to do that.
The story “A Woman Caught In The Act Of Adultery Is Brought To Jesus” appeared in John 8:1-12: It may be known to you that it was expunged from Gospel in the early history of church. God knows what has actually happened.
I wish if I had not taken interest in this debate.
written by Varatharaajan R , August 15, 2011
I feel that to realize God you should try to explore the inner self within you. Since God realization cannot be achieved with the 5 senses (a human being is equipped with and capable of understanding), your efforts have to be aimed at looking beyond the 5 elements and the corresponding sense organs. There is no need for any name for the God you want to realize. If you have the patience and willingness to read some of the sacred books of the Hindus, like the Vedas, Upanishads and Bhagawad Githa you will definitely be able to understand as to what should be done to realize God, which is almost equal to self-realization!
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 15, 2011
The source of the horrendous Christian Antisemitism through the centuries is rooted in the New Testament itself, in the words of Jesus, and to a lesser extent, Saint Paul. For Christian Antisemitism, fueled by church father and the Popes, the main accusations against the Jews were: They were God-killer (i.e. killer of Jesus), they were God-forsaken bastard children of the Devil (who is God's enemy par excellence), and they were horrendous persecutor of the Christians. The last accusation comes from Saint Paul; the rest from Jesus' Gospels.
As concerns slavery, it is not prescribed in the New Testament, it is not prohibited either; in stead, both Jesus and Saint Paul accepted slavery as it existed as social tradition in those days. What is accepted by Jesus and Saint Paul certainly gets divine sanctity. And after Christians rose to power, it started getting worse -- both treatment of slaves and the extent of slavery.
As concerns slavery, it is not prescribed in the New Testament, it is not prohibited either; in stead, both Jesus and Saint Paul accepted slavery as it existed as social tradition in those days. What is accepted by Jesus and Saint Paul certainly gets divine sanctity. And after Christians rose to power, it started getting worse -- both treatment of slaves and the extent of slavery.
written by Archpagan , August 15, 2011
Truth or Dare: At the end of the 16th part of your posts titled 'Unjust God of believers' you observed 'On contrary, in nature, everything happens in a continuous process as per definite laws. There is simply no escape from it. Why does God suddenly become so dismally and so confusingly discrete then!'. For your information, we Hindus (also Buddhists) call this the Law of Karma.
Varatharajan: Study of scriptures will have limited utility unless you have a spiritual master i. e. Guru to guide you. Whatever be your I Q, unless you take help of a teacher in the laboratory you will miserably fail to master Science.
Varatharajan: Study of scriptures will have limited utility unless you have a spiritual master i. e. Guru to guide you. Whatever be your I Q, unless you take help of a teacher in the laboratory you will miserably fail to master Science.
written by Truth or Dare , August 16, 2011
And your question is ?
Are you not able to differentiate between the laws of nature vs Arbitrary actions of God. Same punishment to Genhis Khan (who may sent 40million people to heaven or hell) Vs someone who was a non beleiver in some moment of his life.
"Fail to master science" which science are we talking about. I was discussing maths. 1+1=2 unless you want to say something else.
Are you not able to differentiate between the laws of nature vs Arbitrary actions of God. Same punishment to Genhis Khan (who may sent 40million people to heaven or hell) Vs someone who was a non beleiver in some moment of his life.
"Fail to master science" which science are we talking about. I was discussing maths. 1+1=2 unless you want to say something else.
written by duh_swami , August 16, 2011
Swami Chinmayananda told me to become a mind scientist...He also told me that you must achieve
higher consciousnesses on your own, because you can get no where on the achievements of others...
The Guru, or priest, or minister who has made these achievements can give you theory and method, and you can use them as a roll model, but they cannot, or will not do it for you...
'God' helps those who help themselves'...
higher consciousnesses on your own, because you can get no where on the achievements of others...
The Guru, or priest, or minister who has made these achievements can give you theory and method, and you can use them as a roll model, but they cannot, or will not do it for you...
'God' helps those who help themselves'...
written by tired of islam , August 16, 2011
Linking morality to God has been the bane of most of the religions. The objective of religious quest must be to seek out the truth and nothing else. Any preaching with moral implications is
a) ephemeral - since it would be a product of the current time and circumstances.
b) supremacist - since it tacitly implies that the person who is preaching this morality is implicitly the man of knowledge.
Any belief in a God who metes out punishments is puerile and is roughly tantamount to a belief in Santa Claus or in Mohammad.
I don't have any problem in someone liking a moral God when applying it to themselves. But I would defy them vehemently if they attempt to impose this crappy morality on me.
But just because, man made beliefs are false does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that there is no God. I am not saying that there is a physical God with physical features for a God by that definition is defective since he would be doomed to decay in the way most physical things decay. I am saying that there would have to be a God principle. I am not saying that you should believe it. I am just asserting that I believe in such a principle.
This principle is relentless and defies any moral restrictions. My belief is based on the fact that life exists with this kind of complexity. Look at any animal and see the intricate way its organs function. Look at how plants take in CO2 and give back Oxygen which is the exact reverse of what animals so.
We can wait for Science to unearth how this entire complex eco-system could have "evolved" even if left to itself for millions of years. Or you can believe in God. I don't think that a belief in God is necessarily less rational than the belief that all this complex eco-system has evolved by itself.
I believe in the Golden Principle about treating others as you would like to be treated. This belief may coincide with christian beliefs but I am not a believer of salvation as only being attained through exclusive communion with Christ which is the core of Christian beliefs. I believe in the law of karma. I believe that you would eventually have to "reap what you sow". All these beliefs are neutral statements and don't color your actions as right or wrong in the eyes of an ever didactic God.
By exposing a religion as false, we don't have to necessarily discredit the "God theory". I also believe that by discrediting God you don't automatically become bad for such a statement would defy the Golden principle as well!
a) ephemeral - since it would be a product of the current time and circumstances.
b) supremacist - since it tacitly implies that the person who is preaching this morality is implicitly the man of knowledge.
Any belief in a God who metes out punishments is puerile and is roughly tantamount to a belief in Santa Claus or in Mohammad.
I don't have any problem in someone liking a moral God when applying it to themselves. But I would defy them vehemently if they attempt to impose this crappy morality on me.
But just because, man made beliefs are false does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that there is no God. I am not saying that there is a physical God with physical features for a God by that definition is defective since he would be doomed to decay in the way most physical things decay. I am saying that there would have to be a God principle. I am not saying that you should believe it. I am just asserting that I believe in such a principle.
This principle is relentless and defies any moral restrictions. My belief is based on the fact that life exists with this kind of complexity. Look at any animal and see the intricate way its organs function. Look at how plants take in CO2 and give back Oxygen which is the exact reverse of what animals so.
We can wait for Science to unearth how this entire complex eco-system could have "evolved" even if left to itself for millions of years. Or you can believe in God. I don't think that a belief in God is necessarily less rational than the belief that all this complex eco-system has evolved by itself.
I believe in the Golden Principle about treating others as you would like to be treated. This belief may coincide with christian beliefs but I am not a believer of salvation as only being attained through exclusive communion with Christ which is the core of Christian beliefs. I believe in the law of karma. I believe that you would eventually have to "reap what you sow". All these beliefs are neutral statements and don't color your actions as right or wrong in the eyes of an ever didactic God.
By exposing a religion as false, we don't have to necessarily discredit the "God theory". I also believe that by discrediting God you don't automatically become bad for such a statement would defy the Golden principle as well!
written by Reed Wilson. , August 16, 2011
Archpagan. " Study of scriptures will have limited utility unless you have a spiritual master i. e. Guru to guide you. Whatever be your I Q, unless you take help of a teacher in the laboratory you will miserably fail to master Science."
He must be a Gru who told you this. They perforce create vacancies for them. There is no Gru-dependent scripture. Does a scripture tell you to consult Gru? Which scripture.
He must be a Gru who told you this. They perforce create vacancies for them. There is no Gru-dependent scripture. Does a scripture tell you to consult Gru? Which scripture.
written by Amboyduke , August 16, 2011
Good post...well said...in my opinion, ANY belief structure takes a HUMONGOUS amount of faith.
Even the Moody Blues pose an interesting question in their song "How Is It We Are Here"...on this path we walk...
"Descending from the ape, as scientiist priests all think".
It takes huge faith to believe, REALLY BELIEVE, anything.
Even the Moody Blues pose an interesting question in their song "How Is It We Are Here"...on this path we walk...
"Descending from the ape, as scientiist priests all think".
It takes huge faith to believe, REALLY BELIEVE, anything.
written by tired of islam , August 16, 2011
Thanks @AmboyDuke. Yes it takes an amazing amount of faith to sustain any belief system including the presence or absence of God
Ultimately, a belief system in itself is very personal. That includes atheism as well. Hence my reluctance to try "influencing" the multitude with your particular brand of belief.
I do find rock songs pretty inspirational. I like "the wall" from Kansas. I find the song almost mystical.
Ultimately, a belief system in itself is very personal. That includes atheism as well. Hence my reluctance to try "influencing" the multitude with your particular brand of belief.
I do find rock songs pretty inspirational. I like "the wall" from Kansas. I find the song almost mystical.
written by duh_swami , August 17, 2011
Understanding is superior to belief...Once you understand something you no longer need to believe it...The book of the 'people of the book' addresses that...'In all your getting, get understanding'...Probably the strongest piece of advice given...and most overlooked...
written by Malem , August 17, 2011
Faith in my opinion is much more important that understanding. It is the bedrock of all religions, having faith in the supreme being. For example we might not have a full grasp of knowing why a loved one was struck down, or why something bad happens to us etc. but we have faith that in Allahs wisdom there is a reason and that he would never have us carry more burden than we are able.
Back to the original topic, the question of Allah why punishment. Many try to say that the universe was not created by Allah but you can easily discern through science no less that indeed there was a beginning. Science has proven in the 1990's that the universe is continually expanding. So through scientific reasoning the reverse is also true that at some point the universe began at a single time i.e. the creation. If you look at the anthropic principle which is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we can then clearly realize that we are the product of an intelligent Allah.
As for the argument that Allah never told you what was right and what was wroing, that is silly just read the Quran and study it. if you are Christian the book outlines the same rules for you. Problem is people never want to face consequences for their actions, much like children. A living example is Duh SWami, he spouts off hatred and threats and yet does not want to be heled accountable, very much like the alcoholic who drinks too much then complains when he sick or his liver fails. Allah works in mysterious ways, listeing to him now will benefit you in the afterlife.
Back to the original topic, the question of Allah why punishment. Many try to say that the universe was not created by Allah but you can easily discern through science no less that indeed there was a beginning. Science has proven in the 1990's that the universe is continually expanding. So through scientific reasoning the reverse is also true that at some point the universe began at a single time i.e. the creation. If you look at the anthropic principle which is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we can then clearly realize that we are the product of an intelligent Allah.
As for the argument that Allah never told you what was right and what was wroing, that is silly just read the Quran and study it. if you are Christian the book outlines the same rules for you. Problem is people never want to face consequences for their actions, much like children. A living example is Duh SWami, he spouts off hatred and threats and yet does not want to be heled accountable, very much like the alcoholic who drinks too much then complains when he sick or his liver fails. Allah works in mysterious ways, listeing to him now will benefit you in the afterlife.
written by duh_swami , August 17, 2011
Faith in my opinion is much more important that understanding.
And that's why you have fallen down and can't get up...
Faith is the 'belief' in the unknown and unseen...
Which proves by definition, that the faithful don't know what they are talking about...However, that does not stop them from talking a lot about it just the same...Beliefs are always in flux which is why they are not reliable...An understanding does not change...It is like a law of physics...what is, is....Beliefs allow the idiot to maintain his idiocy until a better belief comes along...This is a process of sublimation, that happens until understanding occurs...Those who are stuck with the limited beliefs of their religion are...stuck...That is the truth...The whole reason for knowing the truth is to set yourself free from it....
And that's why you have fallen down and can't get up...
Faith is the 'belief' in the unknown and unseen...
Which proves by definition, that the faithful don't know what they are talking about...However, that does not stop them from talking a lot about it just the same...Beliefs are always in flux which is why they are not reliable...An understanding does not change...It is like a law of physics...what is, is....Beliefs allow the idiot to maintain his idiocy until a better belief comes along...This is a process of sublimation, that happens until understanding occurs...Those who are stuck with the limited beliefs of their religion are...stuck...That is the truth...The whole reason for knowing the truth is to set yourself free from it....
written by bundypig , August 17, 2011
what you say malem is that thousands and thousands of years before islam or Judaism or Christianity came on the scene, that the Hindu's explained the expanding universe, Brahma breathed out. Eventually the universe will collapse on itself, read Upanishads, the Gita and if you have a year or so... the Vedas
written by Brown Superman , August 17, 2011
"He must be a Guru who told you this. They perforce create vacancies for them."
One can learn any discipline from textbooks but teachers teach as necessary. Tutors further reinforce the for elimination of weak spots. If simple books like Koran (meant for low IQ tribes) are taught and explained (leaving aside the various interpretations and schools of thoughts we find along the way) by teachers to these simple minds, what about the various higher level experiences of the minds and "truths sought" by different individuals of different levels and calibres? A belief may not be limited and restricted to one book or one experience. Surely, you will need a higher level teacher for more discoveries. The creation of vacancy does not indicate that that very guru would fill in the vacancy, unless the student opts for such. It may be another guru or no guru for the moment.
Don't you play guru instead of handing the Koran and say "read", Reed?
One can learn any discipline from textbooks but teachers teach as necessary. Tutors further reinforce the for elimination of weak spots. If simple books like Koran (meant for low IQ tribes) are taught and explained (leaving aside the various interpretations and schools of thoughts we find along the way) by teachers to these simple minds, what about the various higher level experiences of the minds and "truths sought" by different individuals of different levels and calibres? A belief may not be limited and restricted to one book or one experience. Surely, you will need a higher level teacher for more discoveries. The creation of vacancy does not indicate that that very guru would fill in the vacancy, unless the student opts for such. It may be another guru or no guru for the moment.
Don't you play guru instead of handing the Koran and say "read", Reed?
written by Machmoed , August 17, 2011
Malman, you wrote: Many try to say that the universe was not created by Allah but you can easily discern through science no less that indeed there was a beginning. Science has proven in the 1990's that the universe is continually expanding.
Yes, the universe is expanding, it seems. But that's not all. According to qur'an this universe is rolled out like a writer rolls out his scripture and this is also how it's going to end in reverse. In astronomy they call this the big crunch (everything goes back where it came from). The big crunch however is the least thing that will happen. The big chill is a better alternative because of the black energy. The universe has two prominent elements wich are the black matter and black energy. While black matter hold this universe together, black energy excellerates the speed of expandation. Now, scientist recently measured these elements at the beginning of the big bang. What they discovered is that black energy is more in amount than black matter. This means that the universe will keep expanding till the big chill (everything gets cold eventually and dies) or the big Rip. This is a state where the universe's fabric will rip.
The arabs or whoever didn't know this and that's why Qur'an is not telling the reality, we know today.
you wrote: As for the argument that Allah never told you what was right and what was wroing, that is silly just read the Quran and study it.
First, you have to proof that those books are indeed from God/Allah. This has never been the case. If qur'an is the word of Allah, then this Allah doesn't know his creation well. He made the stars and He know some are even bigger than our solar system. How can He state that stars are just tiny lamps for decorative motives?
For that matter, why the inconsistencies, the false implications etc. I don't dare to call Qur'an the litteraly word of Allah. Al moetazilites also believed it was not the litterally word of Allah and they were killed or banned.
Yes, the universe is expanding, it seems. But that's not all. According to qur'an this universe is rolled out like a writer rolls out his scripture and this is also how it's going to end in reverse. In astronomy they call this the big crunch (everything goes back where it came from). The big crunch however is the least thing that will happen. The big chill is a better alternative because of the black energy. The universe has two prominent elements wich are the black matter and black energy. While black matter hold this universe together, black energy excellerates the speed of expandation. Now, scientist recently measured these elements at the beginning of the big bang. What they discovered is that black energy is more in amount than black matter. This means that the universe will keep expanding till the big chill (everything gets cold eventually and dies) or the big Rip. This is a state where the universe's fabric will rip.
The arabs or whoever didn't know this and that's why Qur'an is not telling the reality, we know today.
you wrote: As for the argument that Allah never told you what was right and what was wroing, that is silly just read the Quran and study it.
First, you have to proof that those books are indeed from God/Allah. This has never been the case. If qur'an is the word of Allah, then this Allah doesn't know his creation well. He made the stars and He know some are even bigger than our solar system. How can He state that stars are just tiny lamps for decorative motives?
For that matter, why the inconsistencies, the false implications etc. I don't dare to call Qur'an the litteraly word of Allah. Al moetazilites also believed it was not the litterally word of Allah and they were killed or banned.
written by bundypig , August 17, 2011
"Yes, the universe is expanding, it seems. But that's not all. According to qur'an this universe is rolled out like a writer rolls out his scripture and this is also how it's going to end in reverse. In astronomy they call this the big crunch (everything goes back where it came from)."
and
the sun sets in a muddy hole. When will you look above your brainwashed self and get a grip on reality?
It's really not that hard, facts are facts, NO OTHER IDEOLOGY KILL THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THEIR WAYS except islam, not the Buddists, Christians, Jews,Jains, Methodists lol nobody but followers of the stinking mo
and
the sun sets in a muddy hole. When will you look above your brainwashed self and get a grip on reality?
It's really not that hard, facts are facts, NO OTHER IDEOLOGY KILL THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THEIR WAYS except islam, not the Buddists, Christians, Jews,Jains, Methodists lol nobody but followers of the stinking mo
written by bundypig , August 17, 2011
do I have to go on every one of these different columns to get you to answer...would you give your 6 year old daughter to a 53 year old pervert...to thigh til she was 9 and then to rape?
written by bundypig , August 17, 2011
and since you have 2 wives, I would suppose you have daughters?
written by Cerebrum123 , August 17, 2011
I have some answers for you from the Christian perspective. First we have ALL already failed the test ,because we have all sinned. Second Jesus came to pay the penalty for sin which is an eternal penalty for breaking the laws of the eternal God.Anyone who repents and accepts Jesus into their lives will be saved.Those who have truly accepted Jesus will begin to be changed inwardly by the Holy Spirit and will do good deeds ,and remain as far away from evil as they can ,but they do this out of gratitude towards God for giving them the free gift of salvation ,not from fear of punishment in hell. Young children and babies who have not yet truly come to understand choice and free will will go to heaven. As for not knowing about God truly existing there is this Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
As for knowing God's laws there is this Romans 2:15
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
All injustice comes from mankind ,and not from God. God made the world perfect ,but because of the fall mentioned in Genesis the whole of creation became cursed and is now full of injustice. God gave us free will and a life in which to use it so that we may choose to love Him as He loves us. He did not create us to be robots. Without free will there can be no love. God's purpose for us is love.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
As for knowing God's laws there is this Romans 2:15
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
All injustice comes from mankind ,and not from God. God made the world perfect ,but because of the fall mentioned in Genesis the whole of creation became cursed and is now full of injustice. God gave us free will and a life in which to use it so that we may choose to love Him as He loves us. He did not create us to be robots. Without free will there can be no love. God's purpose for us is love.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 17, 2011
Yes the Jewish leaders did have Jesus executed ,but for the other things you should really give a specific quote.In fact all of the apostles were Jewish. And they taught that there were some advantages to being Jews.Not to mention Jesus Himself was Jewish. Yes people have taken things in the Bible and twisted them to fit their agenda ,but these are not the actual teachings. Jesus did teach the Golden Rule which is to love your neighbor as yourself. He also taught people to love their enemies and pray for those who persecuted them. A few things about slavery 1 the slavery was vastly different in those times and was much more like an indentured servant. 2 Just because you don't directly oppose something doesn't mean you give it your blessing.
written by bundypig , August 17, 2011
Do you want me to die because I was raised Christian, but left when Christianity didn't answer my questions?
Like why is God in Christianity, supposed to be like a grandfatherly thing in the sky?
I believe it's all spiritual, you and I are *God* he is omnipresent because he is that spark called life.
But my point is this, you don't wish me any harm...you just want me to come back to the fold...although I'm older than your father ;)
Like why is God in Christianity, supposed to be like a grandfatherly thing in the sky?
I believe it's all spiritual, you and I are *God* he is omnipresent because he is that spark called life.
But my point is this, you don't wish me any harm...you just want me to come back to the fold...although I'm older than your father ;)
written by tired of islam , August 17, 2011
IMO, understanding is a slippery slope. There are levels of understanding and the distinction between them is the difference in the belief.
As a study of Euclidean geometry would reveal. It was previously believed that the universe followed the Euclidean geometry. Euclidean geometry itself is a set of theorems which were derived from an initial set of five hypothesis. The fifth hypothesis was considered too complex and was dropped. Parallel geometries were constructed with the first four hypothesis. These were found to be consistent as well contrary to an earlier belief that all the five hypothesis would be required for constructing a consistent geometry.
The point I am making is that as the assumptions altered the understanding of Geometry also altered. Similarly, the understanding of religion which is much more complex also relies on a set of beliefs or hypothesis if you may. If these things change, the entire understanding changes as well.
If your belief is at the level of assuming that the Quran is sacrosanct, then your understanding would be at the level of Islam being the one and only religion. If your level of belief is at the Golden rule, then your understanding would also be commensurate to that.
As a study of Euclidean geometry would reveal. It was previously believed that the universe followed the Euclidean geometry. Euclidean geometry itself is a set of theorems which were derived from an initial set of five hypothesis. The fifth hypothesis was considered too complex and was dropped. Parallel geometries were constructed with the first four hypothesis. These were found to be consistent as well contrary to an earlier belief that all the five hypothesis would be required for constructing a consistent geometry.
The point I am making is that as the assumptions altered the understanding of Geometry also altered. Similarly, the understanding of religion which is much more complex also relies on a set of beliefs or hypothesis if you may. If these things change, the entire understanding changes as well.
If your belief is at the level of assuming that the Quran is sacrosanct, then your understanding would be at the level of Islam being the one and only religion. If your level of belief is at the Golden rule, then your understanding would also be commensurate to that.
written by Malem , August 17, 2011
I do not have a 6 year old daughter, so there was no point in answering was there. Also your assumption that because a man has 2 wives he has daughters is based on what? The book of Foolishnosity by Duhwey?
Machmoed you spout scientific theories my friend, they are not proofs so when you prove them, I will prove the existence of Allah, deal?
Cerebrum - It is BS we are born with some sort of sin, how is that so? A baby has done nothing wrong minutes after it is born, yet you say it is imperfect. Then you baptize it and then say, you are still a sinner and must go to confession every week. I doubt that is true and I never believed it (but I understood it Duhwey!!).
Machmoed you spout scientific theories my friend, they are not proofs so when you prove them, I will prove the existence of Allah, deal?
Cerebrum - It is BS we are born with some sort of sin, how is that so? A baby has done nothing wrong minutes after it is born, yet you say it is imperfect. Then you baptize it and then say, you are still a sinner and must go to confession every week. I doubt that is true and I never believed it (but I understood it Duhwey!!).
written by duh_swami , August 17, 2011
I do not have a 6 year old daughter, so there was no point in answering was there.
Malman won't answer a hypothetical question...He always answers
with his own life experience which is not an appropriate response...He understands the question but is ashamed to answer it...
It is another obfuscation...Lies, Obfuscations and false charges are all he has...
Malman won't answer a hypothetical question...He always answers
with his own life experience which is not an appropriate response...He understands the question but is ashamed to answer it...
It is another obfuscation...Lies, Obfuscations and false charges are all he has...
written by bundypig , August 17, 2011
big deal on my assumption, he's a goat roper.
malem, would you give your 6 year old daughter to a 53 year old pervert to thigh until she was 9 and then to rape?
malem, would you give your 6 year old daughter to a 53 year old pervert to thigh until she was 9 and then to rape?
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Cerebrum for Sake of LOVE you have for all of us can you open a separate forum on bible as it creates a lot of noise where the signals of the likes of MalMan get drowened. I promise I will visit it and answer you till u say no more.
If you are able to prove any of your Pseudo science I will also nominate you for a Nobel prize in Psedu Scientific miracles. Just take the noise away for we are disecting quran here if you get it (at all). This has been conveyed to you by others as well.
If you are able to prove any of your Pseudo science I will also nominate you for a Nobel prize in Psedu Scientific miracles. Just take the noise away for we are disecting quran here if you get it (at all). This has been conveyed to you by others as well.
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Why do you want to stuff bible down everyone’s throat when I had some plain set of questions. either you don’t have any rationale or were not able to read through those questions. Let’s take one question at a time and prove that god is just in your version of heaven and hell. Why try to change the viewpoint. Yes you have an agenda of injecting noise and as much as possible What’s the point of beating about the bush or you need clarification on any of the questions raised by me.
Either you agree with a point or disagree rather then give a long sermon of some other fairy tale/s.
Did I mention Jesus anywhere. Talk about God only and we will discuss later.
Either you agree with a point or disagree rather then give a long sermon of some other fairy tale/s.
Did I mention Jesus anywhere. Talk about God only and we will discuss later.
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
MalMan how many virgins will your wives use in heaven (provided you allow them). What if they dont like you and in heaven they take another men of their choice for it is allowed (men of choice). Will you feel jealous that in front of your eyes your wives are fornicating with someone else.
How will you like your wives, daughters, mothers, sisters or any other family standing naked in front of strangers on judgement day. What happens if seeing all those naked men you realise your tool is small in size.
What if someone starts getting ercetion/s seeing you or your family naked.
How will you like your wives, daughters, mothers, sisters or any other family standing naked in front of strangers on judgement day. What happens if seeing all those naked men you realise your tool is small in size.
What if someone starts getting ercetion/s seeing you or your family naked.
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Bestiality can be performed during
Hajj
Sunni Imam Abu Bakar al-Kashani (d. 587 H) records in his authority work 'Badaye al-Sanae'
Volume 2 page 216:
ولو وطئ بهيمة ل يفسد حجه
"If he had sexual intercourse with an animal, that will not make his hajj void"
Hajj
Sunni Imam Abu Bakar al-Kashani (d. 587 H) records in his authority work 'Badaye al-Sanae'
Volume 2 page 216:
ولو وطئ بهيمة ل يفسد حجه
"If he had sexual intercourse with an animal, that will not make his hajj void"
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Paedophilia, Bestiality and
necrophilia can be performed whilst one is Fasting
In Bada'i al-Fuwa'id of Ibn Qayyim, page 603:
"It was narrated by Ahmed that a man came to him that feared that he would
ejaculate while he was fasting. Ahmed said: "What I see is that he can release
semen without ruining the fast, he can masturbate using his hands or the hands of
his wife, If he has an "Ammah" whether be it a girl or a little child, she can
masturbate for him using her hands, and if she was a non-believer, he can sleep
with her without releasing (his semen), if he released it in her, it becomes
impermissible".
B ada'i al-Fuwa'id of Ibn Qayyim, page 603
Not to be hard done by, the Hanafi's follow suit. In Fatawa Qadhi Khan, Page 820, the learned
Hanafi scholar Allamah Hassan bin Mansoor Qadhi Khan sets out those acts that do not
invalidate one's fast, and he includes:
"Sex with animals, dead people and masturbation, does not invalidate one's fast
provided ejaculation does not occur"
F atawa Qadhi Khan, Page 820
necrophilia can be performed whilst one is Fasting
In Bada'i al-Fuwa'id of Ibn Qayyim, page 603:
"It was narrated by Ahmed that a man came to him that feared that he would
ejaculate while he was fasting. Ahmed said: "What I see is that he can release
semen without ruining the fast, he can masturbate using his hands or the hands of
his wife, If he has an "Ammah" whether be it a girl or a little child, she can
masturbate for him using her hands, and if she was a non-believer, he can sleep
with her without releasing (his semen), if he released it in her, it becomes
impermissible".
B ada'i al-Fuwa'id of Ibn Qayyim, page 603
Not to be hard done by, the Hanafi's follow suit. In Fatawa Qadhi Khan, Page 820, the learned
Hanafi scholar Allamah Hassan bin Mansoor Qadhi Khan sets out those acts that do not
invalidate one's fast, and he includes:
"Sex with animals, dead people and masturbation, does not invalidate one's fast
provided ejaculation does not occur"
F atawa Qadhi Khan, Page 820
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Allamah Hassan bin Mansoor Qadhi Khan writes in his book of fatwa, Volume 4, p. 820:
Of things which are haram but for which there is no Islamic penalty, these include…
marrying your wife's sister, or her mother, or a woman who is already married.
F atawa Qadhi Khan, Volume 4, Page 820
On the very next page Qadhi Khan records a classic Fatwa of Imam Abu Hanifa
"if a person marries a mahram (mother, sister, daughter, aunt etc.) and has sexual
intercourse with them and even admits the fact that he knew while performing the
marital rites that it was Haraam for him to do that even then according to Imam
Abu Hanifa, he is not subject to any type of Islamic penalty".
F atawa Qadhi Khan, Volume 4, Page 821
Of things which are haram but for which there is no Islamic penalty, these include…
marrying your wife's sister, or her mother, or a woman who is already married.
F atawa Qadhi Khan, Volume 4, Page 820
On the very next page Qadhi Khan records a classic Fatwa of Imam Abu Hanifa
"if a person marries a mahram (mother, sister, daughter, aunt etc.) and has sexual
intercourse with them and even admits the fact that he knew while performing the
marital rites that it was Haraam for him to do that even then according to Imam
Abu Hanifa, he is not subject to any type of Islamic penalty".
F atawa Qadhi Khan, Volume 4, Page 821
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
The Deobandi Death Ritual
We read in Ahl'ul Sunnah's recognised masterpiece 'Maqamath Badhaya al Zaman', page 26,
Maqama 8, by Abu Fadhl Ahmad bin Husayn bin Yahya bin Saeed al Madani:
"Abu Fathah narrates 'On one occasion I had the opportunity to see a dead body and
I said 'He is not dead but alive'. People asked 'How do you know?' I replied 'When a
man dies his anus goes cold, and I have made this comment in light of this fact,
verily he is alive'. Upon saying this all of those present placed their fingers in the
body's anus and concluded he is not dead but is alive".
We read in Ahl'ul Sunnah's recognised masterpiece 'Maqamath Badhaya al Zaman', page 26,
Maqama 8, by Abu Fadhl Ahmad bin Husayn bin Yahya bin Saeed al Madani:
"Abu Fathah narrates 'On one occasion I had the opportunity to see a dead body and
I said 'He is not dead but alive'. People asked 'How do you know?' I replied 'When a
man dies his anus goes cold, and I have made this comment in light of this fact,
verily he is alive'. Upon saying this all of those present placed their fingers in the
body's anus and concluded he is not dead but is alive".
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
It is permissible to stare and
scream at women who answer the call of nature
We read in Sahih al Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith Number 148: book of Ablutions (Wudu')
Narrated 'A'isha:
The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at
Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let
your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a
the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar
addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired
eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women)
may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover
excluding the eyes).
scream at women who answer the call of nature
We read in Sahih al Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith Number 148: book of Ablutions (Wudu')
Narrated 'A'isha:
The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at
Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let
your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a
the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar
addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired
eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women)
may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover
excluding the eyes).
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Method of knowing the gender of the unborn.
"If a man wants to know whether it's a boy or a girl in the womb of a pregnant
woman then a man should capture and place a lice over his palm and the pregnant
woman shall take out a drop of her milk and put it there (means over the plam of
the man where he had put the lice). Thus, if the lice is successful to come out of the
drop of the milk then the gender is female but if it is unsuccessful to come out of the
drop of milk then it's a male."
Hayat al Hewan (Urdu), Volume 2 page 567
"If a man wants to know whether it's a boy or a girl in the womb of a pregnant
woman then a man should capture and place a lice over his palm and the pregnant
woman shall take out a drop of her milk and put it there (means over the plam of
the man where he had put the lice). Thus, if the lice is successful to come out of the
drop of the milk then the gender is female but if it is unsuccessful to come out of the
drop of milk then it's a male."
Hayat al Hewan (Urdu), Volume 2 page 567
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Use of
a Dildoe (female sex toys)
After this ingenious fatwa, Ibn Qayyim then goes on to make permissible the use of a dildoe by
women. It is only logical; when the husbands leave to go masturbate and spread Islam by the
sword, they need something to do with themselves. On the same page as quoted above, Ibn
Qayyim writes:
"If a woman does not have a husband, and her lust becomes strong, then some of
our scholars say: It is permissible for the woman to take an akranbij, which is a
piece of leather worked until it becomes shaped like a penis, and insert it in herself.
She may also use a cucumber".
a Dildoe (female sex toys)
After this ingenious fatwa, Ibn Qayyim then goes on to make permissible the use of a dildoe by
women. It is only logical; when the husbands leave to go masturbate and spread Islam by the
sword, they need something to do with themselves. On the same page as quoted above, Ibn
Qayyim writes:
"If a woman does not have a husband, and her lust becomes strong, then some of
our scholars say: It is permissible for the woman to take an akranbij, which is a
piece of leather worked until it becomes shaped like a penis, and insert it in herself.
She may also use a cucumber".
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Permissibility of Having Sex with Watermelons
Ibn Qayyim continues this discussion, which exemplifies the
morals espoused by Sunni Islam:
"If a man makes a hole in a watermelon, or a piece of dough, or a leather skin, or a
statue, and has sex with it, then this is the same as what we have said about other
types of masturbation [i.e., that it is halaal in the same circumstances given before,
such as being on a journey]. In fact, it is easier than masturbating with one's hand".
Ibn Qayyim continues this discussion, which exemplifies the
morals espoused by Sunni Islam:
"If a man makes a hole in a watermelon, or a piece of dough, or a leather skin, or a
statue, and has sex with it, then this is the same as what we have said about other
types of masturbation [i.e., that it is halaal in the same circumstances given before,
such as being on a journey]. In fact, it is easier than masturbating with one's hand".
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Are there any conditions as to the age of the watermelon? For example, is it allowed to
perform a marriage with the intent to divorce with a newly grown watermelon, or must
one wait until the watermelon is nine years old?
• Must it be a pious watermelon, or is it permissible to contract a marriage with the intent
to divorce with a watermelon that is known to "get around"?
• May a pious brother share his watermelon with another pious brother, or would the
second man's marriage with the intent to divorce constitute an act of fornication unless
the watermelon observes proper 'iddah?
• Are witnesses required in the marriage with the intent to divorce of a watermelon? May
other watermelons serve as witnesses in that marriage, since according to Sunni fiqh all
marriages require witnesses? Applying the Sunni principle of Qiyas (analogy), we can
strongly argue that if it is allowed to marry (with intention of divorce) a watermelon,
than certainly it is allowed for a watermelon to bear witness to another watermelon's
blessed and chaste marriage.
• What about oranges?
perform a marriage with the intent to divorce with a newly grown watermelon, or must
one wait until the watermelon is nine years old?
• Must it be a pious watermelon, or is it permissible to contract a marriage with the intent
to divorce with a watermelon that is known to "get around"?
• May a pious brother share his watermelon with another pious brother, or would the
second man's marriage with the intent to divorce constitute an act of fornication unless
the watermelon observes proper 'iddah?
• Are witnesses required in the marriage with the intent to divorce of a watermelon? May
other watermelons serve as witnesses in that marriage, since according to Sunni fiqh all
marriages require witnesses? Applying the Sunni principle of Qiyas (analogy), we can
strongly argue that if it is allowed to marry (with intention of divorce) a watermelon,
than certainly it is allowed for a watermelon to bear witness to another watermelon's
blessed and chaste marriage.
• What about oranges?
written by Truth or Dare , August 17, 2011
Sahih Muslim Hadith Number 3426:
Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to
him that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr
came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah,
Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has
attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex
problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Suckle him so that he may become
unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and
said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone)
afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on
my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me. "Sheikh ul-Islam ibn Taymia (may Allah's mercy be upon him) chosed to explain in
details and said that if the breast suckling by an adult was necessary and he
suckled, then the prohibition (of marriage) is established."
Fatawa Nur Ala Aldarb, Volume 10 page 204
Imam Ibn Hazm records:
ورضاع الكبير محرم ولو انه شيخ يحرم كما يحرم رضاع الصغير
"The breast suckling by an adult prohibits (marriage) even if he is an old man just
like it prohibits (marriage) in the case of suckling by a child"
A l-Muhala, Volume 10 page 17
Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to
him that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr
came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah,
Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has
attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex
problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Suckle him so that he may become
unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and
said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone)
afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on
my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me. "Sheikh ul-Islam ibn Taymia (may Allah's mercy be upon him) chosed to explain in
details and said that if the breast suckling by an adult was necessary and he
suckled, then the prohibition (of marriage) is established."
Fatawa Nur Ala Aldarb, Volume 10 page 204
Imam Ibn Hazm records:
ورضاع الكبير محرم ولو انه شيخ يحرم كما يحرم رضاع الصغير
"The breast suckling by an adult prohibits (marriage) even if he is an old man just
like it prohibits (marriage) in the case of suckling by a child"
A l-Muhala, Volume 10 page 17
written by Reed Wilson. , August 17, 2011
Brown Superman. "Don't you play guru instead of handing the Koran and say "read", Reed?
No. I am just acting as messenger. Explaining Quran is responsibility of Quran. I can convey Quran.
No. I am just acting as messenger. Explaining Quran is responsibility of Quran. I can convey Quran.
written by Amboyduke , August 18, 2011
If you practice those things mentioned by Truth or Dare, you must lead one
hell-u-van interesting life!
hell-u-van interesting life!
written by Amboyduke , August 18, 2011
The complete and utter INSANITY of it all just galvanizes me! (islam)
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 18, 2011
Yes, Jesus, like Luther, initially talked highly of the Jews. Like Muhammad, Jesus initially said that he came to save the lost Jews. But when they didn't accept him, he started hatred of them; as did Muhammad and Luther.
A sample of Jesus' Antisemitic statements:
1. When the Jews wanted Jesus to show a miracle before they would believe him, Jesus couldn't show one and claimed he himself as the greatest miraculous sign (somewhat like Muhammad claimed the Quran was his miraculous sign). As that certainly was not a good miraculous sign and Jews didn't believe him. So,he condemned them the Jews as "a wicked generation" [Luk 11:29], "A wicked and adulterous generation" [Mat 12:39].
2. ‘‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,’’ Jesus says, ‘‘how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!’’; instead, you ‘‘kill the prophets and stone those sent to you’’ [Luk 13: 34-35]. (note: in Old Testament, there is only incident, in which an alleged prophet was killed in the whole Jewish history (b4 Jesus); so, generalizing it and accusing the entire Jewish community, past and future, of the same crime is ludicrous).
3. Jews become God's forsaken: "...But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’’ [Mat 8:11–12].
4. Jews, the bastard children of the Devil, God's enemy par excellence: When Jesus tells the Jews that only by believing in him, they ‘‘will know the truth, and the truth will set you free’’, they rejected it saying: ‘‘We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?’’ In response, Jesus accused them of trying to kill him, which Abraham would never do -- suggesting that they were not Abraham's children (i.e. they were illegitimate children!) [Joh 8:31–41]. When they protested saying, "‘We are not illegitimate children… The only Father we have is God himself’", Jesus retorted by calling them the "children of Devil" for not believing in him [Joh 8:44–45]:
As concerns the claim of Jesus' killing by the Jews, we don't have any independent verification of what is claimed in the Gospels. But Jesus certainly died at the hands of Romans, not of the Jews. And Pilate, the Roman governor, was one of most brutal persecutor of the Jews -- to the extent that when his persecution became unbearable, the Jews complained to emperor in Rome, and Pilate was recalled (and I guess he was executed for his excessive brutality upon the Jews). So, it sounds unconvincing that just because the Jews wanted Jesus to be killed, he was killed by the Romans. Even then, the Jews showed respect for the "rule of law" by handing him over to the Romans, and the responsibility of what transpired next, i.e. Jesus' killing, falls exclusively on the shoulder of Pilate, even if the Jews wanted him dead.
I guess, this discussion is getting too distracting from our focus on Islam. So, I will quit at this point.
A sample of Jesus' Antisemitic statements:
1. When the Jews wanted Jesus to show a miracle before they would believe him, Jesus couldn't show one and claimed he himself as the greatest miraculous sign (somewhat like Muhammad claimed the Quran was his miraculous sign). As that certainly was not a good miraculous sign and Jews didn't believe him. So,he condemned them the Jews as "a wicked generation" [Luk 11:29], "A wicked and adulterous generation" [Mat 12:39].
2. ‘‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,’’ Jesus says, ‘‘how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!’’; instead, you ‘‘kill the prophets and stone those sent to you’’ [Luk 13: 34-35]. (note: in Old Testament, there is only incident, in which an alleged prophet was killed in the whole Jewish history (b4 Jesus); so, generalizing it and accusing the entire Jewish community, past and future, of the same crime is ludicrous).
3. Jews become God's forsaken: "...But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’’ [Mat 8:11–12].
4. Jews, the bastard children of the Devil, God's enemy par excellence: When Jesus tells the Jews that only by believing in him, they ‘‘will know the truth, and the truth will set you free’’, they rejected it saying: ‘‘We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?’’ In response, Jesus accused them of trying to kill him, which Abraham would never do -- suggesting that they were not Abraham's children (i.e. they were illegitimate children!) [Joh 8:31–41]. When they protested saying, "‘We are not illegitimate children… The only Father we have is God himself’", Jesus retorted by calling them the "children of Devil" for not believing in him [Joh 8:44–45]:
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
As concerns the claim of Jesus' killing by the Jews, we don't have any independent verification of what is claimed in the Gospels. But Jesus certainly died at the hands of Romans, not of the Jews. And Pilate, the Roman governor, was one of most brutal persecutor of the Jews -- to the extent that when his persecution became unbearable, the Jews complained to emperor in Rome, and Pilate was recalled (and I guess he was executed for his excessive brutality upon the Jews). So, it sounds unconvincing that just because the Jews wanted Jesus to be killed, he was killed by the Romans. Even then, the Jews showed respect for the "rule of law" by handing him over to the Romans, and the responsibility of what transpired next, i.e. Jesus' killing, falls exclusively on the shoulder of Pilate, even if the Jews wanted him dead.
I guess, this discussion is getting too distracting from our focus on Islam. So, I will quit at this point.
written by duh_swami , August 18, 2011
Good, bad, or indifferent, there is no reliable, conclusive proof, that Jesus ever actually existed in flesh and blood...Like every other aspect of religion, Jesus is a matter of faith...But faith is not fact...
The faithful have faith, based on nothing, that all the characters
in the Bible were real people living real events...The truth is that some were real people and some were not...
The Muslim faithful is in the same boat, he believes that Mohammad and his 'right guided ones' were real people, but there is scant real evidence of this...Some people believe Mohammad never existed as reported...Anyone can claim anything, proving it is a different matter...The faithful are not capable of proving, they have no real desire to prove, because proof may shatter the faith...So it's better to just believe, and stay away from proof (truth)...
The faithful have faith, based on nothing, that all the characters
in the Bible were real people living real events...The truth is that some were real people and some were not...
The Muslim faithful is in the same boat, he believes that Mohammad and his 'right guided ones' were real people, but there is scant real evidence of this...Some people believe Mohammad never existed as reported...Anyone can claim anything, proving it is a different matter...The faithful are not capable of proving, they have no real desire to prove, because proof may shatter the faith...So it's better to just believe, and stay away from proof (truth)...
written by Mozlem , August 18, 2011
You refute Sunnah captured in Hadiths separate from Islam. You also say Hadits are lies.
Are you guys shaved down below. Are you circumcised also. If you are not then you are not a true muslim. If you are show me where in Quran is it mentioned. Circumsision was a ancient Jewish/Arab tradition which was copied by your prophet. Moreover why does Allah create imperfect Humans that end up with a razor males and females before every 40 days. And as regards to the benifits of circucision you know it very well if you stick to one wife, do not indulge in homosexual sex and do not buy sex outside you will not suffer from HIV or any STDs. Why torture babies which maybe disfigured for life who at times may also die from complications and if they suffer from hemophilia. All in the name of going to heaven but Allah resores the skin in heaven isnt it. So is this some sort of Islamic buffonery!
Are you guys shaved down below. Are you circumcised also. If you are not then you are not a true muslim. If you are show me where in Quran is it mentioned. Circumsision was a ancient Jewish/Arab tradition which was copied by your prophet. Moreover why does Allah create imperfect Humans that end up with a razor males and females before every 40 days. And as regards to the benifits of circucision you know it very well if you stick to one wife, do not indulge in homosexual sex and do not buy sex outside you will not suffer from HIV or any STDs. Why torture babies which maybe disfigured for life who at times may also die from complications and if they suffer from hemophilia. All in the name of going to heaven but Allah resores the skin in heaven isnt it. So is this some sort of Islamic buffonery!
written by Malem , August 18, 2011
There is a lot of proof Jesus existed, if you are looking for a picture it might surprise you that there were no cameras back then. His mother existed, his father, his brother whos grave they have uneartherd, many people wrote about him, not jsut in the bible, there are many instances of his work throughout his short time on earth, yet he didnt exist? Jesus is neither faith or fact. You have faith in Jesus that he died for your sins and will save you. The FACT is he was alive and at one point died.
You never met Buddah did he exist? You never met Noah? Ibrahim? or Gandhi for that matter..are you sure they existed? Someopne could have just photoshopped a malnourished indian and said it was this person named gandhi? Your such a dope Duh, again you bring laughter to my day, I wonder with such a tiny brain how it keeps you upright and walking!
Mozlems looking for dates? Now you are asking about my personal grooming, come on man you must be able to find someon to go out and have fun with, theres no need to surf this blog for potential partners.
You never met Buddah did he exist? You never met Noah? Ibrahim? or Gandhi for that matter..are you sure they existed? Someopne could have just photoshopped a malnourished indian and said it was this person named gandhi? Your such a dope Duh, again you bring laughter to my day, I wonder with such a tiny brain how it keeps you upright and walking!
Mozlems looking for dates? Now you are asking about my personal grooming, come on man you must be able to find someon to go out and have fun with, theres no need to surf this blog for potential partners.
written by duh_swami , August 18, 2011
There is a lot of proof Jesus existed,
Produce it...Back up your statement with facts (proof)...The world is waiting...
Produce it...Back up your statement with facts (proof)...The world is waiting...
written by Mozlem , August 18, 2011
Malman isnt this what you did to your wives. You said that they are PHd. Phd in what the usual relgious studies.
Making peace is better than separation. An example of such peace can be felt in the story of Sawdah bint Zam'ah who WHEN SHE BECAME AGED, THE PROPHET WANTED TO DIVORCE HER, but she made peace with him by offering the night he used to spend with her to A'isha so that he would keep her. The Prophet accepted such terms and kept her.
Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Ibn ‘Abbas said, "Sawdah feared that the Messenger of Allah might divorce her and she said, ‘O Messenger of Allah! Do not divorce me; give my day to 'A'ishah.’ And he did ...
In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that 'A'ishah said that when Sawdah bint Zam'ah BECAME OLD, she forfeited her day to 'A'ishah and the Prophet used to spend Sawdah's night with 'A'ishah ...
Making peace is better than separation. An example of such peace can be felt in the story of Sawdah bint Zam'ah who WHEN SHE BECAME AGED, THE PROPHET WANTED TO DIVORCE HER, but she made peace with him by offering the night he used to spend with her to A'isha so that he would keep her. The Prophet accepted such terms and kept her.
Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Ibn ‘Abbas said, "Sawdah feared that the Messenger of Allah might divorce her and she said, ‘O Messenger of Allah! Do not divorce me; give my day to 'A'ishah.’ And he did ...
In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that 'A'ishah said that when Sawdah bint Zam'ah BECAME OLD, she forfeited her day to 'A'ishah and the Prophet used to spend Sawdah's night with 'A'ishah ...
written by Mozlem , August 18, 2011
MalMan you dont need to show your black ring anymore. Follow into footsteps of Mo and his merry men and you will e saved. Here is the method to brighten your black shrivelled star fish.
Read in 'Majma al-Amthaal' page 250 - Chapter 7 "fi ma aula al kha" by Allamah Madani:
Hadrath Abu Jahl had an addiction to the anus. His anus had white spots and he used to
paint it with saffron so that customers would not be repulsed".
Saffron colur will look better then black when you show it in surrender. Well when you invite me for date I realize you have been abused as child. The result is latent tender tendecies. Maybe if you wear female clother like Mo used to wear Aiyeshas clothes (need proof) I can consider but first bleach the starfish. Loke Mo I am not fond of black colour either.
Read in 'Majma al-Amthaal' page 250 - Chapter 7 "fi ma aula al kha" by Allamah Madani:
Hadrath Abu Jahl had an addiction to the anus. His anus had white spots and he used to
paint it with saffron so that customers would not be repulsed".
Saffron colur will look better then black when you show it in surrender. Well when you invite me for date I realize you have been abused as child. The result is latent tender tendecies. Maybe if you wear female clother like Mo used to wear Aiyeshas clothes (need proof) I can consider but first bleach the starfish. Loke Mo I am not fond of black colour either.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 19, 2011
Malem the Bible clearly teaches that through the sin of Adam all of humanity was cursed with what we call "original sin".This means that ALL descendants of Adam (with the exception of Jesus due to His miraculous birth) are born into sin and death.The Bible teaches that Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I am not a Catholic and I disagree with infant baptism and confessionals. These two things are not taught in the Bible ,and the confessional make a mockery of repenting to Jesus to forgive your sins once and for all just as the Bible teaches. An infant is unable to make a choice concerning following God or not ,and so are young children. The point of baptism is a public sign that you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour ,and not the means to salvation.You are getting Catholic tradition confused with Christian doctrine. I do not consider myself to be a part of any of the numerous denominations out there. I base my beliefs on Biblical authority ,not legalism and man-made traditions.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I am not a Catholic and I disagree with infant baptism and confessionals. These two things are not taught in the Bible ,and the confessional make a mockery of repenting to Jesus to forgive your sins once and for all just as the Bible teaches. An infant is unable to make a choice concerning following God or not ,and so are young children. The point of baptism is a public sign that you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour ,and not the means to salvation.You are getting Catholic tradition confused with Christian doctrine. I do not consider myself to be a part of any of the numerous denominations out there. I base my beliefs on Biblical authority ,not legalism and man-made traditions.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 19, 2011
There are actually a number of proofs of the existence of Jesus outside of the Biblical references. I will list a few of them here. These are some historians who mention Him in their works , Josephus ,Lucian , Mara bar-Serapion , Pliny , Seutonius , Tacitus ,and Thallus. The Talmud also mention Him. Google the "Ossuary of James the brother of Jesus" to find some things out about this interesting find. Thallus even mentions the three hour darkness described in the Bible although he attributes it to an eclipse. I know you don't like looking at the links I give ,but here is one that talks about Thaluss's work http://christianthinktank.com/jrthal.html
I hope you take the time to research these yourself ,because it would be a bit much to post on here.
I hope you take the time to research these yourself ,because it would be a bit much to post on here.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 19, 2011
I will try to answer all of your above questions ,but it will take time. I will do my best to be thorough in my responses to all of your questions. I will answer the one about animals now. The Bible says that animals do have what is called "the breath of life" ,but this is different from humans as humans were made in "God's own image". Animals to have consciousness ,but this is not quite the same as the human soul. The human soul being made in the "image of God" has an eternal attribute to it. This is different than animals.Animals are not accountable to God for their actions ,but we are.This is the major difference between animal life ,and human souls.
written by Truth or Dare , August 19, 2011
Lets keep things simple. Why beat about the bush.
Will animals go to heaven or hell.
Yes or No
Will animals go to heaven or hell.
Yes or No
written by Truth or Dare , August 19, 2011
Dear all
I think I have another candidate for a straight jacket here.
You say humans are "God's own image" therefore it can be said they are God.
So why does god want to test himself over and over again. It implies every single manufactured piece is defective @ 100% failure rate. This is a failed doomed factory. The quality control is in place to find defective pieces. So God tests himself over and over to see if he has to send himself to heaven or hell. Your God is pathetic. Maybe he needs a course in six sigma at least if not better. Maybe it is because the course of Six sigma was not revealed in Hebrew.
I think I have another candidate for a straight jacket here.
You say humans are "God's own image" therefore it can be said they are God.
So why does god want to test himself over and over again. It implies every single manufactured piece is defective @ 100% failure rate. This is a failed doomed factory. The quality control is in place to find defective pieces. So God tests himself over and over to see if he has to send himself to heaven or hell. Your God is pathetic. Maybe he needs a course in six sigma at least if not better. Maybe it is because the course of Six sigma was not revealed in Hebrew.
written by duh_swami , August 19, 2011
You will have to post just exactly what these ancient reporters saw and said about what they saw...if you have no eye witness accounts, you have nothing, and any eye witness accounts that do exist outside the bible, are subject to fraud...Just your saying that they said something is not good enough...And what makes you think I have not researched these claims...years ago?...There were other historians in Jesus time in the same area, and they do not mention him...
It is not taken for granted that Jesus ever existed in real life, except by gullible believers who will believe almost anything if you attach 'God' or Jesus to it...If it was actually
'proved' that Jesus ever really existed, it would make world headlines, and there would no longer be any question...But no actual proof is forthcoming so his existence remains a question...it is well known that many documents, writings, epistles and gospels from those days were forgeries and frauds...Pope Clement supposedly said that there were many gospels in his day...only the four you know of made it into the Bible...
At any rate, there is nothing like a true authentic eye witness account, I doubt any of those you listed who 'mentioned' him ever actually saw him...and if they said they did, what makes you think they were credible? Josephus was born in 37 AD, and died in 100 AD, it was not possible for him to have eye witness accounting...Lucian 125 AD to 180 AD, no eye witness there...Mara bar-Serapion wrote his letter in 73 AD or later and also was not an eye witness...Pliny was born in 23AD in Italy so no eye witness account was possible...Tacitus...Ad 56 to AD 117...No eyewitness possible...Thallus was alive at the time of Jesus but he did not write an eye witness account, he wrote at about AD 50...
So none of these writers were there, and they saw nothing...All of them are relying on what they were told or what someone else wrote...This is hardly proof of anything...
It is not taken for granted that Jesus ever existed in real life, except by gullible believers who will believe almost anything if you attach 'God' or Jesus to it...If it was actually
'proved' that Jesus ever really existed, it would make world headlines, and there would no longer be any question...But no actual proof is forthcoming so his existence remains a question...it is well known that many documents, writings, epistles and gospels from those days were forgeries and frauds...Pope Clement supposedly said that there were many gospels in his day...only the four you know of made it into the Bible...
At any rate, there is nothing like a true authentic eye witness account, I doubt any of those you listed who 'mentioned' him ever actually saw him...and if they said they did, what makes you think they were credible? Josephus was born in 37 AD, and died in 100 AD, it was not possible for him to have eye witness accounting...Lucian 125 AD to 180 AD, no eye witness there...Mara bar-Serapion wrote his letter in 73 AD or later and also was not an eye witness...Pliny was born in 23AD in Italy so no eye witness account was possible...Tacitus...Ad 56 to AD 117...No eyewitness possible...Thallus was alive at the time of Jesus but he did not write an eye witness account, he wrote at about AD 50...
So none of these writers were there, and they saw nothing...All of them are relying on what they were told or what someone else wrote...This is hardly proof of anything...
written by Mozlem , August 19, 2011
Duh and Crebrum I invite you to watch life of brian produced by Monty Python and his flying Circus.
They did make one movie on Mo but it was classed as porn and Allah intervend as he said it is the spoiler for his Heaven.
They did make one movie on Mo but it was classed as porn and Allah intervend as he said it is the spoiler for his Heaven.
written by duh_swami , August 19, 2011
Duh and Crebrum I invite you to watch life of brian produced by Monty Python and his flying Circus.
I think I watched that one week, but I have a spare week coming up so I may watch it again...
Monty and Benny Hill are my gods...they and Groucho Marx...Add the Three Stooges Mo, Larry and Curly and you have the perfect gang of six...
Is it any wonder that God rested on the seventh...Curly was the last one to pop out and he was tough on creation...he weighed 200 pounds when he was born...God rested for a long time after that, when he felt better he created Slip Mahoney and the Bowery Boys, Joe E Brown, Ma and Pa Kettle, the Keystone Cops, Bob Hope, and finally About and Costello Meet the Mummy...one of Gods finest creations...
I'm not sure why God has this facination about creating mummy's, but he has created quite a few of them...
I think I watched that one week, but I have a spare week coming up so I may watch it again...
Monty and Benny Hill are my gods...they and Groucho Marx...Add the Three Stooges Mo, Larry and Curly and you have the perfect gang of six...
Is it any wonder that God rested on the seventh...Curly was the last one to pop out and he was tough on creation...he weighed 200 pounds when he was born...God rested for a long time after that, when he felt better he created Slip Mahoney and the Bowery Boys, Joe E Brown, Ma and Pa Kettle, the Keystone Cops, Bob Hope, and finally About and Costello Meet the Mummy...one of Gods finest creations...
I'm not sure why God has this facination about creating mummy's, but he has created quite a few of them...
written by duh_swami , August 19, 2011
I didn't do justice to Bud Abbott by spelling his name wrong...Sorry Bud...
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 19, 2011
I wanted myself off from discussion, but couldn't resist putting my input on this issue.
The question of Jesus' real-life existence has been around for a while, and taking cues from there, Patricia Crone has tried to dispute Muhammad's existence as well, although Crone later made a turn around a couple of years ago, saying evidence for Muhammad's existence is overwhelming.
To my thinking, it is possible to create a cult around an imaginary entity, but not as easy creating one surrounding a human personality, like Jesus and Muhammad. From research of Biblical scriptures and ancient religious traditions of the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks -- I have to come to this conclusion:
The Jesus as presented in the Bible never really existed. But there was, most likely, a Jewish rebel -- later named Jesus -- who tried to change the religious and ethical aspects of life in harmony with the Greco-Roman ethics and culture (appearance of such pretender Jewish prophets was common in that difficult period for the Jewish nation). But he was a much more mundane person, and upon his personality, layers and layers of myths and ancients religious ideas -- particularly Egyptian (he spent his childhood there, didn't he?) and to a lesser extent Greo-Roman -- added over the subsequent decades and centuries.
Ideas of God's appearance on earth in human form, virgin birth, Resurrection, and such as go around Jesus' person were all old religious ideas of various pagan cults and were certainly borrowed.
The question of Jesus' real-life existence has been around for a while, and taking cues from there, Patricia Crone has tried to dispute Muhammad's existence as well, although Crone later made a turn around a couple of years ago, saying evidence for Muhammad's existence is overwhelming.
To my thinking, it is possible to create a cult around an imaginary entity, but not as easy creating one surrounding a human personality, like Jesus and Muhammad. From research of Biblical scriptures and ancient religious traditions of the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks -- I have to come to this conclusion:
The Jesus as presented in the Bible never really existed. But there was, most likely, a Jewish rebel -- later named Jesus -- who tried to change the religious and ethical aspects of life in harmony with the Greco-Roman ethics and culture (appearance of such pretender Jewish prophets was common in that difficult period for the Jewish nation). But he was a much more mundane person, and upon his personality, layers and layers of myths and ancients religious ideas -- particularly Egyptian (he spent his childhood there, didn't he?) and to a lesser extent Greo-Roman -- added over the subsequent decades and centuries.
Ideas of God's appearance on earth in human form, virgin birth, Resurrection, and such as go around Jesus' person were all old religious ideas of various pagan cults and were certainly borrowed.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 20, 2011
Mr. M. A. Khan. "I wanted myself off from discussion, but couldn't resist putting my input on this issue."
Why? It is really commendable job you did and initiated healthy discussion.
"The Jesus as presented in the Bible never really existed. But there was, most likely, a Jewish rebel -- later named Jesus -- who tried to change the religious and ethical aspects of life in harmony with the Greco-Roman ethics and culture (appearance of such pretender Jewish prophets was common in that difficult period for the Jewish nation)."
Jesus Christ did exist, as you conclude, with some plus minus in common belief. It is common phenomenon that reformers meet opposition in the beginning then they are over sanctified to an extant of worshiping them. This is zulm.
If he was a 'much more mundane person', is again shrouded and cannot be verified through historical means. Quran, confirming his existence and apostle hood, says:
لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّـهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۚ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّـهِ شَيْئًا إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ۗ وَلِلَّـهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا ۚ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ ﴿١٧﴾
"Those who have said that the Messiah, son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, committed themselves to disbelief." 5:17.
"Those who say that Jesus, the son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, "Worship God, my Lord and yours." 5:72.
"Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom there lived many other Messengers. His mother was a truthful woman and both of them ate earthly food". 5:75
I am not submitting here verses 5:116-20 which are pertinent and which I leave on our more serious readers to consult themselves. Thanks.
Why? It is really commendable job you did and initiated healthy discussion.
"The Jesus as presented in the Bible never really existed. But there was, most likely, a Jewish rebel -- later named Jesus -- who tried to change the religious and ethical aspects of life in harmony with the Greco-Roman ethics and culture (appearance of such pretender Jewish prophets was common in that difficult period for the Jewish nation)."
Jesus Christ did exist, as you conclude, with some plus minus in common belief. It is common phenomenon that reformers meet opposition in the beginning then they are over sanctified to an extant of worshiping them. This is zulm.
If he was a 'much more mundane person', is again shrouded and cannot be verified through historical means. Quran, confirming his existence and apostle hood, says:
لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّـهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۚ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّـهِ شَيْئًا إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ۗ وَلِلَّـهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا ۚ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ ﴿١٧﴾
"Those who have said that the Messiah, son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, committed themselves to disbelief." 5:17.
"Those who say that Jesus, the son of Mary, is God, have, in fact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, "Worship God, my Lord and yours." 5:72.
"Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom there lived many other Messengers. His mother was a truthful woman and both of them ate earthly food". 5:75
I am not submitting here verses 5:116-20 which are pertinent and which I leave on our more serious readers to consult themselves. Thanks.
written by duh_swami , August 20, 2011
There is no empirical proof that Jesus as described ever lived...Everything about him is allegory...Because he is mentioned in Quran (stolen) is proof of nothing...There are a lot of religious people who are frustrated over lack of proof, so out of intense wishful thinking, they grasp at any straw that even faintly resembles proof, but it always comes up short...Trying to prove the unproven is hard work, especially when you have little to go on...The Prophet Isa is just an original reproduction of the original reproduction, who's existence can't be verified...
written by Reed Wilson. , August 20, 2011
duh-swami. Pls. see conclusion of Mr. Khan above. That is also a proof. Not stolen. Extra Quranic.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 20, 2011
Regarding the antisemitism being taught by Jesus here is my response.
1 Jesus had already given them many miracles and signs before this ,but they did not believe Him even then.He gave a prediction here for a future sign Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.
This refers to the death and resurrection of Jesus.
2 Just because these events were not recorded in the OT doesn't mean that they didn't happen.The OT doesn't have the details of the deaths of most of the prophets. Also Jesus is not talking about the entire Jewish community ,He was talking specifically about the hypocritical religious leaders in the Jewish community mainly the Pharisees and Sadducees. Plus is He was including all of the Jewish people He would have been including all of the apostles and Himself.
3 Again this is specifically people who rejected God ,and not the entire Jewish community.
4Again specific group of people not the entire Jewish community.
All of these things have been taken greatly out of context.Using these verses to say that it is the entire Jewish community being addressed is dishonest.Here's one verse that taken out of context makes all people who are not Jewish look bad Matthew15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
I put the verse in context ,but if you put only the bold parts it's meaning becomes entirely different.
Also the Jewish religious leaders were the ones who brought Jesus to Pilate on false charges ,and Pilate found Him innocent ,and tried to set Him free. Pilate fearing that the Jews would form a mob ,and start a riot he gave into their demands ,and washed his hands of the entire incident.
Like I said before people do take the Bible and twist it to their agenda ,but these are not the actual teachings ,but perversions of what was really taught.
1 Jesus had already given them many miracles and signs before this ,but they did not believe Him even then.He gave a prediction here for a future sign Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.
This refers to the death and resurrection of Jesus.
2 Just because these events were not recorded in the OT doesn't mean that they didn't happen.The OT doesn't have the details of the deaths of most of the prophets. Also Jesus is not talking about the entire Jewish community ,He was talking specifically about the hypocritical religious leaders in the Jewish community mainly the Pharisees and Sadducees. Plus is He was including all of the Jewish people He would have been including all of the apostles and Himself.
3 Again this is specifically people who rejected God ,and not the entire Jewish community.
4Again specific group of people not the entire Jewish community.
All of these things have been taken greatly out of context.Using these verses to say that it is the entire Jewish community being addressed is dishonest.Here's one verse that taken out of context makes all people who are not Jewish look bad Matthew15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
I put the verse in context ,but if you put only the bold parts it's meaning becomes entirely different.
Also the Jewish religious leaders were the ones who brought Jesus to Pilate on false charges ,and Pilate found Him innocent ,and tried to set Him free. Pilate fearing that the Jews would form a mob ,and start a riot he gave into their demands ,and washed his hands of the entire incident.
Like I said before people do take the Bible and twist it to their agenda ,but these are not the actual teachings ,but perversions of what was really taught.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 20, 2011
As far as animals going to hell that would be a no since they are not accountable to God in the way we are. As for animals going to heaven that is debatable. There are verses in the Bible that definitely allow for this possibility ,but there is no way of knowing if they are the same animals that have lived and died on earth.
As for your question about people who have lived their whole lives as Christian ,and turn away from God just before they die ( I personally don't believe that someone who has truly accepted Jesus would ever do this) ,and someone who has done horrible things all of their life ,and then accepted Jesus at the last minute ,I refer you to this parable. Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
Someone who rejects Jesus rejects God ,and has also rejected the free gift of salvation.
As for your question about people who have lived their whole lives as Christian ,and turn away from God just before they die ( I personally don't believe that someone who has truly accepted Jesus would ever do this) ,and someone who has done horrible things all of their life ,and then accepted Jesus at the last minute ,I refer you to this parable. Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
Someone who rejects Jesus rejects God ,and has also rejected the free gift of salvation.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 20, 2011
Also being made in the image of God ,and being God are two entirely different things. God created us for love ,and His glory. He gave us free will ,and the opportunity to choose between loving Him or choosing to go our own way and rebel against Him. Adam and Eve chose to rebel. As punishment for their disobedience the entire creation became cursed ,even the animals.As a result death ,disease, suffering ,and injustices of many kinds entered our world. There is no test ,because the test God requires is perfection. God also demands justice. This means that sin must be punished. We have all sinned ,and continue to sin so we ALL deserve to go to hell ,but God being merciful came down as Jesus to pay the penalty that we deserved ,and to offer us a way out of this punishment. Would you prefer to face God's justice (i.e an eternity in hell) ,or would you rather have His mercy and grace (i.e an eternity in heaven ,and a personal relationship with Him)? The choice is entirely yours ,and everyone can choose whether or not to accept or reject God's mercy.
written by Truth or Dare , August 20, 2011
Cerebrum image of God and being god is two different things.
I propose a simple experiment
Stand in front of a mirror and make an observation on what you see.
Reed Wolson
Malman
Donkey
Dog
Yourself
If you see yourself then your image is same as you are. So you are God.
Now answer this question do you consider yourself perfect or imperfect. If you are perfect then you will not commit any sins but you said earlier Humans are given free will. So you are imperfect.
So being imperfect is not your fault because your God made you imperfect. Now this imperfection can be physical as you suffered from the Dystropy or mental as you maye get criminal thoughts. So you decide to turn these thoughts into some criminal action. Isnt it safe to say it was your creater who made you imperfect therefore he is also responsible for your crimnal activities which will ultimatly lead to hell.
Here is a simple test which also applies to REED , Malam and Fairoz.
Take a piece of rope and make a noose. tie it to some heigh object and put the noose around your neck.
Pray to Allah , Jesus and God as applicable to your faith.
Now hang from that noose. If your neck breaks and you die this death is because of your faith therefoe you have booked a seat in heaven. And if your saviour decides otherwise otherwise the rope will break.
Publish the results of this little test on the website after you have done this little test. If you decide not to do this test it implies you dont have faith.
I propose a simple experiment
Stand in front of a mirror and make an observation on what you see.
Reed Wolson
Malman
Donkey
Dog
Yourself
If you see yourself then your image is same as you are. So you are God.
Now answer this question do you consider yourself perfect or imperfect. If you are perfect then you will not commit any sins but you said earlier Humans are given free will. So you are imperfect.
So being imperfect is not your fault because your God made you imperfect. Now this imperfection can be physical as you suffered from the Dystropy or mental as you maye get criminal thoughts. So you decide to turn these thoughts into some criminal action. Isnt it safe to say it was your creater who made you imperfect therefore he is also responsible for your crimnal activities which will ultimatly lead to hell.
Here is a simple test which also applies to REED , Malam and Fairoz.
Take a piece of rope and make a noose. tie it to some heigh object and put the noose around your neck.
Pray to Allah , Jesus and God as applicable to your faith.
Now hang from that noose. If your neck breaks and you die this death is because of your faith therefoe you have booked a seat in heaven. And if your saviour decides otherwise otherwise the rope will break.
Publish the results of this little test on the website after you have done this little test. If you decide not to do this test it implies you dont have faith.
written by Truth or Dare , August 20, 2011
Meaning of curse
(v. t.) To bring great evil upon; to be the cause of serious harm or unhappiness to; to furnish with that which will be a cause of deep trouble; to afflict or injure grievously; to harass or torment.
(v. i.) To utter imprecations or curses; to affirm or deny with imprecations; to swear.
(v. t.) The cause of great harm, evil, or misfortune; that which brings evil or severe affliction; torment.
(v. t.) An invocation of, or prayer for, harm or injury; malediction.
(v. t.) To call upon divine or supernatural power to send injury upon; to imprecate evil upon; to execrate.
(v. t.) Evil pronounced or invoked upon another, solemnly, or in passion; subjection to, or sentence of, divine condemnation.
So the christians are cursed which means all of the above applies to them.
If God curses his creation for having free will then why did he give free will. Isnt it like have robots instead of humans in the first place.
Now beacuse of free will Adam and Eve decided to use it. If they were warned of the outcome to use this free will as they wish will cause them trouble why were they given free will in the first place.
God is imperfect you mean he gives free will and asks not to use it.
Moreover if Christians are cursed whats the point of even thinking about hell for curse will not make it any worse in hell will it.
(v. t.) To bring great evil upon; to be the cause of serious harm or unhappiness to; to furnish with that which will be a cause of deep trouble; to afflict or injure grievously; to harass or torment.
(v. i.) To utter imprecations or curses; to affirm or deny with imprecations; to swear.
(v. t.) The cause of great harm, evil, or misfortune; that which brings evil or severe affliction; torment.
(v. t.) An invocation of, or prayer for, harm or injury; malediction.
(v. t.) To call upon divine or supernatural power to send injury upon; to imprecate evil upon; to execrate.
(v. t.) Evil pronounced or invoked upon another, solemnly, or in passion; subjection to, or sentence of, divine condemnation.
So the christians are cursed which means all of the above applies to them.
If God curses his creation for having free will then why did he give free will. Isnt it like have robots instead of humans in the first place.
Now beacuse of free will Adam and Eve decided to use it. If they were warned of the outcome to use this free will as they wish will cause them trouble why were they given free will in the first place.
God is imperfect you mean he gives free will and asks not to use it.
Moreover if Christians are cursed whats the point of even thinking about hell for curse will not make it any worse in hell will it.
written by Truth or Dare , August 20, 2011
Curse on animals.
Disease is a curse. So people who take treatment for disease are gods for they are able to break Gods curse.
What was the reason for curse on animals. Why were they made to suffer for Adam and Eves disobidience.
BTW you did not answer earlier question if they will go to heaven or hell. If they will not go to heaven or hell why are they cursed. If they will go to heaven or hell what is the criteria. If they will go to heaven or hell what is the living arrangement for there were no oceans or large water bodies in heaven or hell.
Disease is a curse. So people who take treatment for disease are gods for they are able to break Gods curse.
What was the reason for curse on animals. Why were they made to suffer for Adam and Eves disobidience.
BTW you did not answer earlier question if they will go to heaven or hell. If they will not go to heaven or hell why are they cursed. If they will go to heaven or hell what is the criteria. If they will go to heaven or hell what is the living arrangement for there were no oceans or large water bodies in heaven or hell.
written by Yibel , August 20, 2011
The story “A Woman Caught In The Act Of Adultery Is Brought To Jesus” still appears
in the Bible, John 8:1-12 King James Version. Some groups have removed this passage because they believe it was added at some later time and was not in the original Good News (Gospel) According to John.
Many early (as well as current) readers of this passage were/are upset that an adultress would be allowed to go free (that is, unstoned), so they have missed the importance of this particular episode in Jesus' ministry: That the law must be justly applied. Arresting one person for a crime while letting the other go free, or applying different punishments depending on the person involved, is unjust and, therefore, a grievous sin. So all those who stood before Jesus that day were sinners; and they all left, not wishing to be held accountable for this sin.
The Qur'an gives different punishments for various crimes depending on whether or not one is a Muslim, and on one's rank within the ummah. Not so in the Bible; the Law of Moses does not distinguish between persons. The king is just as accountable as the common man; no special privileges.
Sorry that I did not respond to your question earlier. I am not shy, but have been extremely busy with work and this thread has gotten very long: Interesting, but time consuming to read all the responses.
in the Bible, John 8:1-12 King James Version. Some groups have removed this passage because they believe it was added at some later time and was not in the original Good News (Gospel) According to John.
Many early (as well as current) readers of this passage were/are upset that an adultress would be allowed to go free (that is, unstoned), so they have missed the importance of this particular episode in Jesus' ministry: That the law must be justly applied. Arresting one person for a crime while letting the other go free, or applying different punishments depending on the person involved, is unjust and, therefore, a grievous sin. So all those who stood before Jesus that day were sinners; and they all left, not wishing to be held accountable for this sin.
The Qur'an gives different punishments for various crimes depending on whether or not one is a Muslim, and on one's rank within the ummah. Not so in the Bible; the Law of Moses does not distinguish between persons. The king is just as accountable as the common man; no special privileges.
Sorry that I did not respond to your question earlier. I am not shy, but have been extremely busy with work and this thread has gotten very long: Interesting, but time consuming to read all the responses.
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 20, 2011
At the time of Jesus, Jews were divided between Pharisees (the Orthoddox) or Sadducees (liberal). They combined constituted the Jewish community. So, as you claim: Jesus condemn mainly the Pharisees and Sadducees, that amounts to condemning the entire Jewish community. Given all the Jews, except about a dozen accepted Jesus/God, that means virtually the entire Jewish community became condemned by him, when you say Jesus only condemned those Jews who didn't accept God.
And now also you want to invent stories that the Jews killed many prophets purely based on guesswork, just because you have to justify Jesus' atrocious attitude. No doubt religious people, including Christians, could commit so much atrocity and barbarism for their faith. Steven Weinburg was spot on saying: "Without religion, good people will do good and bad people will do bad, but for good people to do bad, you need religion."
Even if Jews had killed prophets ages ago, Jews of Jesus' generation bore no responsibility for those killings. Civilized people and societies cannot accept Jesus' accusing his generation of Jews or Jewish leaders for a crime committed by ages ago.
Concerning Jesus' performing many miracles, there's no independent verification; those are just claims and contradicted in the words of Jesus himself. See what the Bible says about this episode of a gathering of the Jews asking Jesus to show a miracle/sign:
Second thing: he says for this wicked generation of the Jews, the "Son of Man", i.e. Jesus himself, is the only miracle/sign. Here he is clearly saying that he had presented the Jews with no other miracle than himself. If he had performed so many miracles, why he didn't say that I have shown you so many miracle, why want more? Instead, he said that he himself was only miracle to be shown to this generation of the Jews. That makes it obvious that all the claimed incidents of Jesus' performing miracles in the NT are patently false, probably added later on by authors of the Gospel. If not, they certainly contradict Jesus' own words. Otherwise that Jesus was an imbecile, who performed so many miracles, but didn't know what he was doing.
And now also you want to invent stories that the Jews killed many prophets purely based on guesswork, just because you have to justify Jesus' atrocious attitude. No doubt religious people, including Christians, could commit so much atrocity and barbarism for their faith. Steven Weinburg was spot on saying: "Without religion, good people will do good and bad people will do bad, but for good people to do bad, you need religion."
Even if Jews had killed prophets ages ago, Jews of Jesus' generation bore no responsibility for those killings. Civilized people and societies cannot accept Jesus' accusing his generation of Jews or Jewish leaders for a crime committed by ages ago.
Concerning Jesus' performing many miracles, there's no independent verification; those are just claims and contradicted in the words of Jesus himself. See what the Bible says about this episode of a gathering of the Jews asking Jesus to show a miracle/sign:
(Luk 11:29-30)And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.Just because they wanted a miracle, would a civilized person call them a "wicked generation"? And these gathering was commons Jews, not the Jewish leaders.
Second thing: he says for this wicked generation of the Jews, the "Son of Man", i.e. Jesus himself, is the only miracle/sign. Here he is clearly saying that he had presented the Jews with no other miracle than himself. If he had performed so many miracles, why he didn't say that I have shown you so many miracle, why want more? Instead, he said that he himself was only miracle to be shown to this generation of the Jews. That makes it obvious that all the claimed incidents of Jesus' performing miracles in the NT are patently false, probably added later on by authors of the Gospel. If not, they certainly contradict Jesus' own words. Otherwise that Jesus was an imbecile, who performed so many miracles, but didn't know what he was doing.
written by Archpagan , August 21, 2011
Why did the Jews incurred enmity of so many people? Almost every people who came into close contact with the chosen people of Yahweh became their enemies. Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, later on the Christian, Muslims and lastly the Nazis all fall into that category. This despite the fact that the Jews never enjoyed numerical superiority over their adversaries. Isn't it due to their religious intolerance?
written by Machmoed , August 21, 2011
That makes it obvious that all the claimed incidents of Jesus' performing miracles in the NT are patently false, probably added later on by authors of the Gospel. If not, they certainly contradict Jesus' own words.
Look at this titled: Older Manuscripts found in Palestine say that Jesus is a Prophet.
The message is certainly different than bible's message. No crucifixion, no resurrection but rather a human and only human.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeOd9KyyvF0
Look at this titled: Older Manuscripts found in Palestine say that Jesus is a Prophet.
The message is certainly different than bible's message. No crucifixion, no resurrection but rather a human and only human.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeOd9KyyvF0
written by duh_swami , August 21, 2011
There is no 'proof' of Jesus physical existence...period...If here was proof that everyone would accept, it would be big news...One of the biggest news stories of all time...So where is this news story, and where is the proof? Jesus is like the weather, 'everyone talks about it but no one does anything about it'...
Everyone talks about Jesus and reads about Jesus, but no one knows where he is...To cover up that discrepancy, some say he is here and working miracles day and night, but invisible...
This is pure speculation and cannot be proved...
It is a device used to disguise the fact that the believer has no idea what he is talking about, but must say something to maintain credibility...People who actually know what they are talking about don't normally use those kinds of devices...The world waits for real proof of Jesus, not just talking and writing...So far the world is disappointed...
Everyone talks about Jesus and reads about Jesus, but no one knows where he is...To cover up that discrepancy, some say he is here and working miracles day and night, but invisible...
This is pure speculation and cannot be proved...
It is a device used to disguise the fact that the believer has no idea what he is talking about, but must say something to maintain credibility...People who actually know what they are talking about don't normally use those kinds of devices...The world waits for real proof of Jesus, not just talking and writing...So far the world is disappointed...
written by Machmoed , August 21, 2011
a wise man once said: wether Jesus came as man on earth and became God or came as God and became human, he is NOT a part of our history.
written by M. A. Khan, editor , August 21, 2011
Religious intolerance was a factor, but it was hardly imposed by them upon others. Their trouble with the Greeks, Romans, and Babylonians resulted from invasions of those powers -- and their efforts to sully their religious culture and tradition. It was also their strong sense of independence, quite unique to them in those days. The Persians also came in contact with them, and they gave them respect and freedom; as a result, there was no conflict with the Persians. Instead, Cyrus the Great is sanctified in their scriptures as God's anointed savior for them, although he was not a Jew. And their later trouble in Christian Europe is the result of Christian faith. They had migrated to China, India, Sri Lanka, and in these idolatrous nation, they never had any conflict, despite the fact that idolatry is what they detested most. The host showed them respect and gave freedom; and they reciprocated. In exile they tried to maintain their own culture and tradition, which often brought wrath of hosts upon them; but unlike Muslims today, they never aggressively tried to impose their culture and values upon others.
written by Truth or Dare , August 21, 2011
Awaiting test result.
1 .Did the neck break?
2. Did the rope break?
3. Did the faith break?
1 .Did the neck break?
2. Did the rope break?
3. Did the faith break?
written by Truth or Dare , August 21, 2011
"And the Lord God cause a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof: and the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." (2:21, 22.)
When God made man out of dust, why did He not make his wife out of the same material? If He made his wife out of a bone, why did He not make him as well out of the same. Now if woman was named so because she was taken out of a man,* the word man should also have been derived from the word Woman as he is born of woman. They should also love each other.
A wife should love her husband as a man loves his wife.! If Woman was made of one rib taken out of Man, why are not all men short of one rib? Besides there ought to be only one rib in the body of a woman as he was made out of one rib. Could not God have made Woman of the same material as He had used in the creation of the Universe?
Why is so that in rest of the world man are born of women except otherwise in christian faith. Please check if you are short of one rib.
When God made man out of dust, why did He not make his wife out of the same material? If He made his wife out of a bone, why did He not make him as well out of the same. Now if woman was named so because she was taken out of a man,* the word man should also have been derived from the word Woman as he is born of woman. They should also love each other.
A wife should love her husband as a man loves his wife.! If Woman was made of one rib taken out of Man, why are not all men short of one rib? Besides there ought to be only one rib in the body of a woman as he was made out of one rib. Could not God have made Woman of the same material as He had used in the creation of the Universe?
Why is so that in rest of the world man are born of women except otherwise in christian faith. Please check if you are short of one rib.
written by Amboyduke , August 21, 2011
Apparently, I have read this long ago in a medical journal, the short rib at the bottom of the rib cage can re-generate itself if it is surgically removed...(?)
Just mentioning this as a curiosity...?
Just mentioning this as a curiosity...?
written by Mozlem , August 22, 2011
There is no regeneration of the rib or any bone once it is removed.
Are women on ribbed?
Please provide citation.
Are women on ribbed?
Please provide citation.
written by duh_swami , August 22, 2011
Was Adam created with testicles and sperm? Was Eve created with Ova? Neither one of them, in the story, exhibited any kind of sex urge, and none was spoken or implied until 'God ' told them to go forth and multiply...Adam and Eve had no mother or father...He was born of dust and Eve was born from a rib...No sex act of reproduction occurred...When they ate the apple and got smart, they recognized they had sex organs and covered them up...If God had not intended sex in the Garden, why did he give both of them sex organs? And if he intended sex, why did he get upset when they discovered their organs? The serpent told Eve she would not die...But how could she know what death was, since no one had yet died?...And how could increasing her pain in childbirth impress her since she could not know what pregnancy and child birth were, since no one had been made pregnant, and no babies had been delivered? Then the Bible declares that Eve was the mother of all living...How is that possible for a human?
When God told them to go forth and multiply, how could they have known what God was talking about since no one had previously gone forth and multiplied? This story as a real event happening to real people, is a little hard to swallow unless you choose to believe it at face value, and don't ask very many questions...
When God told them to go forth and multiply, how could they have known what God was talking about since no one had previously gone forth and multiplied? This story as a real event happening to real people, is a little hard to swallow unless you choose to believe it at face value, and don't ask very many questions...
written by Amboyduke , August 22, 2011
Mozlem...
Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying I know anything about rib regeneration...because I don't...I'm just stating that there have been curious studies...?
Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 1987 May;12(4):346-50.
Rib regeneration area as an indicator of fusion area in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis.
Schram RA, Allen BL Jr, Ferguson RL.
Abstract
This retrospective study of 24 patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis who underwent L-rod instrumentation, posterior thoracoplasty, and rib-bone grafting analyzed the correlation between the quality of rib regeneration and the host response to the rib-bone grafts. A planimetric technique was used to quantitate the coronal plane area of the resected ribs and of an L1-L2 concave fusion area immediately after surgery and at the end of the first postsurgical year. Using computerized regression analysis, these and other variables such as age, Cobb angle, and grafting technique were studied. Rib regeneration correlated with spinal fusion but not with age or Cobb angle. A better host response with strip vs. morseled graft was suggested, but not statistically proven. The data strongly support the belief that systemic biologic factors are a major variable affecting the quality of the fusion procedure.
PMID: 3616748 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
It seems to me that although there are many on this site (IW) who have amazing knowledge about spirituality, religious history, philosophy, and volunteer some good stimulating opinions on these subjects, for every idea or theory expressed, it opens up several more questions...
The only thing I know is that I DON'T KNOW.
I wasn't there when "God created Adam in the Garden of Eden".
I wasn't there when the first "bird" appeared from a dinosaur egg with it's pelvis turned backwards...for which they have no answer.
I wasn't there when the "eye" was created or evolved...
I wasn't there when the "historical" Jesus or Mohammad walked on this earth, if they ever did...
I wasn't there when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after he had begun to decay and smell...(I always wondered why he had to go into the tomb by himself and wouldn't let any one accompany him...curious?)
I wasn't there when any of His miracles were displayed...
I wasn't there when Moses parted the Red Sea...
Did Ezekiel see a UFO...? Don't know, wasn't there.
I don't mean the above to be condescension or sarcasm intended for the posters on this site so don't take it that way.
It just seems to me there is so much we don't know. All of us.
This much I feel I do know....Islam is the evil of our time.... and we must stop it at all costs.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying I know anything about rib regeneration...because I don't...I'm just stating that there have been curious studies...?
Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 1987 May;12(4):346-50.
Rib regeneration area as an indicator of fusion area in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis.
Schram RA, Allen BL Jr, Ferguson RL.
Abstract
This retrospective study of 24 patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis who underwent L-rod instrumentation, posterior thoracoplasty, and rib-bone grafting analyzed the correlation between the quality of rib regeneration and the host response to the rib-bone grafts. A planimetric technique was used to quantitate the coronal plane area of the resected ribs and of an L1-L2 concave fusion area immediately after surgery and at the end of the first postsurgical year. Using computerized regression analysis, these and other variables such as age, Cobb angle, and grafting technique were studied. Rib regeneration correlated with spinal fusion but not with age or Cobb angle. A better host response with strip vs. morseled graft was suggested, but not statistically proven. The data strongly support the belief that systemic biologic factors are a major variable affecting the quality of the fusion procedure.
PMID: 3616748 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
It seems to me that although there are many on this site (IW) who have amazing knowledge about spirituality, religious history, philosophy, and volunteer some good stimulating opinions on these subjects, for every idea or theory expressed, it opens up several more questions...
The only thing I know is that I DON'T KNOW.
I wasn't there when "God created Adam in the Garden of Eden".
I wasn't there when the first "bird" appeared from a dinosaur egg with it's pelvis turned backwards...for which they have no answer.
I wasn't there when the "eye" was created or evolved...
I wasn't there when the "historical" Jesus or Mohammad walked on this earth, if they ever did...
I wasn't there when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after he had begun to decay and smell...(I always wondered why he had to go into the tomb by himself and wouldn't let any one accompany him...curious?)
I wasn't there when any of His miracles were displayed...
I wasn't there when Moses parted the Red Sea...
Did Ezekiel see a UFO...? Don't know, wasn't there.
I don't mean the above to be condescension or sarcasm intended for the posters on this site so don't take it that way.
It just seems to me there is so much we don't know. All of us.
This much I feel I do know....Islam is the evil of our time.... and we must stop it at all costs.
written by Mozlem , August 22, 2011
Why did god create serpent in the first place. Did he not know serpants character. Again a flawed creation if serpent misled Adam and eve. If Adam and eve were created to procreate and they did not know their dick, and bagina from their backside how would they have procreated. If she did not bleed how else did she ovulate.
And without serpant we wouldnt have been born ...........................
And without serpant we wouldnt have been born ...........................
written by Cerebrum123 , August 22, 2011
Adam and Eve WERE created with their reproductive organs. Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
The fruit did not make them "smart" they were already "smart".What eating the fruit did was make them concious of good and evil. This consciousness made them realize that they were naked ,and they then felt ashamed of being naked. Once they knew the difference between good and evil they were also no longer innocent. They would have known what death was because God explained to them what the penalty for their disobedience would be. I also already explained to you that all of the other animals and plants were created BEFORE humans ,and that that verse meant that she was the mother of all mankind.Painful childbirth was not supposed to "impress" her it was supposed to be punishment. As for Mozlem's comments ,The serpent was Satan deceiving Eve by taking that form. Adam and Eve would already know about their reproductive organs ,but they simply would not have been ashamed that they were naked ,because they were innocent ,and did not know what it meant to be naked. It doesn't say in the Bible that she did not bleed ,but it is possible that as the original perfect creation these processes were different then they are now. If you actually read the Bible in context you would see that the answers to these questions are already there.
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
The fruit did not make them "smart" they were already "smart".What eating the fruit did was make them concious of good and evil. This consciousness made them realize that they were naked ,and they then felt ashamed of being naked. Once they knew the difference between good and evil they were also no longer innocent. They would have known what death was because God explained to them what the penalty for their disobedience would be. I also already explained to you that all of the other animals and plants were created BEFORE humans ,and that that verse meant that she was the mother of all mankind.Painful childbirth was not supposed to "impress" her it was supposed to be punishment. As for Mozlem's comments ,The serpent was Satan deceiving Eve by taking that form. Adam and Eve would already know about their reproductive organs ,but they simply would not have been ashamed that they were naked ,because they were innocent ,and did not know what it meant to be naked. It doesn't say in the Bible that she did not bleed ,but it is possible that as the original perfect creation these processes were different then they are now. If you actually read the Bible in context you would see that the answers to these questions are already there.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 22, 2011
I said earlier that animals would not go to hell ,but I really just don't know whether animals would go to heaven in the way people can. There are verses in the Bible that make room for this possibility. As for you "test of faith" there is already an answer in the Bible for your kind of "tests". Satan used the exact same kind of "test" on Jesus I give the relevant verses here Luke 4:9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”
13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
This is the kind of thinking the devil encourages.
As for the curse and free will ,If a parent tells their child not to do something because it would be bad for the child ,and then warns the child of a punishment if the child disobeys ,and the parent goes through with the punishment ,does this make the parent unjust? It's the same case here.
“‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”
13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
This is the kind of thinking the devil encourages.
As for the curse and free will ,If a parent tells their child not to do something because it would be bad for the child ,and then warns the child of a punishment if the child disobeys ,and the parent goes through with the punishment ,does this make the parent unjust? It's the same case here.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 22, 2011
I specifically said that Jesus was talking about the hypocritical RELIGIOUS LEADERS of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Also what Jesus is talking about when He says the "sign of Jonah" is His death and resurrection. This is the only sign they would accept as legitimate since earlier prophets had also performed miracles similar to the one's He had performed so far.. Also as far as them killing the prophets He was comparing them to the people who had performed these actions since they wanted to kill Him. Again I agree that there have been people who have taken the verses of the Bible out of context ,and then used them to fit their agenda ,but again these are not the actual teachings.
written by Mozlem , August 22, 2011
As for the curse and free will ,If a parent tells their child not to do something because it would be bad for the child ,and then warns the child of a punishment if the child disobeys ,and the parent goes through with the punishment ,does this make the parent unjust? It's the same case here.
So it is eternal punishment. I think it is more of an life imprisionment and perpetual at that. Your god is unjust
And I like your answer that you dont know if animals will go to heaven. Well Mo went to heaven sitting on a donkey. Therefore Islamic animals will go to heaven. So if animals will not go to hell and you dont know if they will go to heaven as people the original question of the deciding criteria still remains.
As regarding the rope trick it has nothing to do with satan.
It is law of nature.
If the rope is strong the neck will break.
If the neck is strong rope will break.
It has nothing to do with Angels or Jesus.
And it is gravity. If you jump in space you will float. On earth you will have a bigger jerk on neck then on moon for the difference in the gravitational pull.
I challenge you that if you try angels will come to save you but you must first see how strong your faith is.
If you are weak in faith the neck will break.
And instead of feeding copy and paste from bible can you reply in short in reasons not just beat about the every bush on planet.
So it is eternal punishment. I think it is more of an life imprisionment and perpetual at that. Your god is unjust
And I like your answer that you dont know if animals will go to heaven. Well Mo went to heaven sitting on a donkey. Therefore Islamic animals will go to heaven. So if animals will not go to hell and you dont know if they will go to heaven as people the original question of the deciding criteria still remains.
As regarding the rope trick it has nothing to do with satan.
It is law of nature.
If the rope is strong the neck will break.
If the neck is strong rope will break.
It has nothing to do with Angels or Jesus.
And it is gravity. If you jump in space you will float. On earth you will have a bigger jerk on neck then on moon for the difference in the gravitational pull.
I challenge you that if you try angels will come to save you but you must first see how strong your faith is.
If you are weak in faith the neck will break.
And instead of feeding copy and paste from bible can you reply in short in reasons not just beat about the every bush on planet.
written by Mozlem , August 22, 2011
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
So which image did he create from Male or Female?
And what about hermaphrodites? Do they have yet another god?
It seems he is someone who is mischievous.
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
So which image did he create from Male or Female?
And what about hermaphrodites? Do they have yet another god?
It seems he is someone who is mischievous.
written by Machmoed , August 23, 2011
If there is a creator, it is surely not the God bible or qur'an speaks about. These are nothing but stories just like historie revealed and still reveales. Even if Jesus existed, he is not what the chuch say he was. According to very old scriptures most likely older than the gospels, say Jesus was not God, nor did he resurrected etc. No miraculeus birth is mentioned. It doesn't mean this is the truth about a person who might have existed who was righteous. It only shows that christianity known today is not what Jesus preached. The bible is institutional, something Jesus hated....it seems according to the scriptures found in Palestine.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 23, 2011
Actually archaeology and history are constantly showing the Bible to be completely historically accurate. There is the case of Jericho where it was found to be in the exact condition it would be in according to the Bible including a small part of the city not destroyed which is where a prostitute by the name of Rahab lived ,and was saved for helping the Israelite spies. There is also the case of the Hittites. For years archaeologists said that the Bible can't be true because they couldn't find the Hittites. It didn't take too long before they found an entire Hittite city. The Gospels were written within a few decades of Jesus' resurrection ,and were eyewitness accounts of what happened. The Bible is a compilation of all of scripture ,not something that is institutional. If these documents in Palestine were real scripture they would be in the Bible.
@ Mozlem
When talking about being made in God's image it is a spiritual thing ,and not a physical thing. The hermaphrodite disorder only came about after the fall just like any other disorder or disease ,and has nothing to do with the originally perfect creation that this universe once was.
@ Mozlem
When talking about being made in God's image it is a spiritual thing ,and not a physical thing. The hermaphrodite disorder only came about after the fall just like any other disorder or disease ,and has nothing to do with the originally perfect creation that this universe once was.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 23, 2011
I have faith in God ,but that doesn't mean I should try and kill myself just to see if He will save me or not. This is something the Bible teaches against. That's why I placed that particular set of scripture. Again with the animals I DO NOT KNOW IF THEY GO TO HEAVEN IN THE WAY A PERSON DOES.I did say that there are verses that allow for that possibility including this one Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
Since they are not accountable to God for their actions though that means that they will not go to hell. I do NOT have all of the answers ,anyone who says they have the answer to every question (other than God of course) is a liar. I am just as imperfect and fallible as anyone else. That is the very reason that I need God ,because I can't earn His approval by works or good deeds. Not one single human has ever achieved perfection other than Jesus Christ. This was the requirement He had to make in order to pay the penalty for all of our sins in full. We have sinned against an eternal God which is an eternal crime deserving an eternal punishment ,but we don't have to face that punishment if we just simply ask for forgiveness ,and trust in God.You seem to have missed the point about God's justice ,it is something that MUST be satisfied. Either you can ask Jesus for forgiveness ,who has already paid the penalty for your eternal crime of sin and will wash away the stain and free you from paying the penalty ,or you can pay the penalty yourself. No matter how good a person may seem to us ,unless he has been forgiven of his sin he can never satisfy God's requirement of perfection ,and will be punished for his crimes. God is truly just ,but He is extremely merciful as well. Wouldn't you rather receive His mercy rather than His justice?
Since they are not accountable to God for their actions though that means that they will not go to hell. I do NOT have all of the answers ,anyone who says they have the answer to every question (other than God of course) is a liar. I am just as imperfect and fallible as anyone else. That is the very reason that I need God ,because I can't earn His approval by works or good deeds. Not one single human has ever achieved perfection other than Jesus Christ. This was the requirement He had to make in order to pay the penalty for all of our sins in full. We have sinned against an eternal God which is an eternal crime deserving an eternal punishment ,but we don't have to face that punishment if we just simply ask for forgiveness ,and trust in God.You seem to have missed the point about God's justice ,it is something that MUST be satisfied. Either you can ask Jesus for forgiveness ,who has already paid the penalty for your eternal crime of sin and will wash away the stain and free you from paying the penalty ,or you can pay the penalty yourself. No matter how good a person may seem to us ,unless he has been forgiven of his sin he can never satisfy God's requirement of perfection ,and will be punished for his crimes. God is truly just ,but He is extremely merciful as well. Wouldn't you rather receive His mercy rather than His justice?
written by Truth or Dare , August 23, 2011
I take your point that you dont have the resoning capability of a 7 year old.
No amount of quoting bible will go anywhere. I did request a separate thread just for you to take the noise out.
Hanging has nothing to do with God. If you give me the challege I will go in space and show you that even if I am at a high place the noose did not kill me for it the laws of nature and gravity.
You dont get it do you as you are not tired of beating about the bush.
I am sorry to try to flog a dead horse like you but you did not answer any of my questions objectilvly and with reasoning.
BTW this topic was supposed to be just for you but you have not answered any of my 20 qestions till now. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
No amount of quoting bible will go anywhere. I did request a separate thread just for you to take the noise out.
Hanging has nothing to do with God. If you give me the challege I will go in space and show you that even if I am at a high place the noose did not kill me for it the laws of nature and gravity.
You dont get it do you as you are not tired of beating about the bush.
I am sorry to try to flog a dead horse like you but you did not answer any of my questions objectilvly and with reasoning.
BTW this topic was supposed to be just for you but you have not answered any of my 20 qestions till now. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
written by Truth or Dare , August 23, 2011
Do you have a missing rib.
Are babies born of women in your family.
Are babies born of women in your family.
written by duh_swami , August 23, 2011
Yes, archaeologists dig up all kinds of proof that these ancient people existed and had certain beliefs, but there is no proof at all that any supernatural events actually happened...You still can't prove any supernatural events except to use the device 'miracles'...
Your story about Adam and Eve (and also Genesis 1/2) had no revelations, was a standard rehash, and did not respond to my questions, like how could Eve know what death was since no one had yet died? You avoid those...and how could Eve possibly know what the 'punishment' of increased child birth meant? She would have had no frame of reference, since no child had yet been born...Of course I understand you don't want to address those discrepancies, they have a tendency to weaken the actual event concept...
'that verse (3:20) meant that she was the mother of all mankind'.
But that is not what it says is it...It says
mother of all living...I checked 15 different bible translations and only one mentions man...The rest all use the words, 'all living'...If you are right, you are a minority, the rest have it wrong...
Your story about Adam and Eve (and also Genesis 1/2) had no revelations, was a standard rehash, and did not respond to my questions, like how could Eve know what death was since no one had yet died? You avoid those...and how could Eve possibly know what the 'punishment' of increased child birth meant? She would have had no frame of reference, since no child had yet been born...Of course I understand you don't want to address those discrepancies, they have a tendency to weaken the actual event concept...
'that verse (3:20) meant that she was the mother of all mankind'.
But that is not what it says is it...It says
mother of all living...I checked 15 different bible translations and only one mentions man...The rest all use the words, 'all living'...If you are right, you are a minority, the rest have it wrong...
written by duh_swami , August 23, 2011
and has nothing to do with the originally perfect creation that this universe once was.
Explain what a non perfect universe looks like, then explain what a 'perfect' universe looks like...
Explain what a non perfect universe looks like, then explain what a 'perfect' universe looks like...
written by Dwito , August 23, 2011
duh, are you gone crazy? Again you going to open that boring rubbish-flood gate? Take Mozlems help. shut him up asap. Pl.
written by Sugodson , August 23, 2011
Since spirits of human origin existed in haunted house, there is the original Holy Spirit i.e. God who had created all the minor spirits. He had given man conscience n the teachings of Buddhist n Christ not to do evil. He knew that many will not listen so He set the Law of Karma to punish the evil doers in mostly Reincarnated souls in humans. So many are born cripple, blind, with diseased bodies, or poor to suffer to pay for their sins commited in their previous lives' times.
The paranormal investigators, the psychics n the spiritualists will confirm that those spirits in haunted houses are mostly from dead human.
The paranormal investigators, the psychics n the spiritualists will confirm that those spirits in haunted houses are mostly from dead human.
written by Dwito , August 23, 2011
Horrible!! Another!!!!
Sir, pl. forgive me, you are actually in a wrong rout here. Pl have the labour to find a suitable site.
Sir, pl. forgive me, you are actually in a wrong rout here. Pl have the labour to find a suitable site.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 23, 2011
A question to all
Archpagan. "Why did the Jews incurred enmity of so many people? Almost every people...
It is an assumption.
Archpagan. "Why did the Jews incurred enmity of so many people? Almost every people...
It is an assumption.
written by Reed Wilson. , August 23, 2011
duh_swami. "There is no 'proof' of Jesus physical existence...period.."
So many people are his eye-witnesses. Matthew, John, Luke and Mark have recorded his physical existence, which is available. It is all uncontested for more than 2000 years.
No further proof is needed.
So many people are his eye-witnesses. Matthew, John, Luke and Mark have recorded his physical existence, which is available. It is all uncontested for more than 2000 years.
No further proof is needed.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
I have about 50 more questions ready for you. Let me know if you have given up answering my earlier questions or you still want to want to carry on cutting or pasting stuff from bible without any reasoning.
written by duh_swami , August 23, 2011
No further proof is needed.
Idiotic...None of the Gospel writers or early historians ever saw Jesus in person...They wrote years after the fact, and you are believing the tales of dead men...That's very convenient since none of them are around to question...It takes a lot of ignorance to believe these stories at face value...You, Cerebrum and Clement have lots of that ignorance...Dead men tell no tales, or lies, but living men tell many of them...
Idiotic...None of the Gospel writers or early historians ever saw Jesus in person...They wrote years after the fact, and you are believing the tales of dead men...That's very convenient since none of them are around to question...It takes a lot of ignorance to believe these stories at face value...You, Cerebrum and Clement have lots of that ignorance...Dead men tell no tales, or lies, but living men tell many of them...
written by Machmoed , August 23, 2011
So many people are his eye-witnesses. Matthew, John, Luke and Mark have recorded his physical existence, which is available. It is all uncontested for more than 2000 years.
Reed i know you don't mean this. What do you mean by uncontested for 2000 years. First thing they are not eye witnesses Reed.
Are you saying he is crucified?
If not, then their testomony is not trustworthy because Qur'an sais something else.
Reed i know you don't mean this. What do you mean by uncontested for 2000 years. First thing they are not eye witnesses Reed.
Are you saying he is crucified?
If not, then their testomony is not trustworthy because Qur'an sais something else.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"One night while Moses was in camp, Jehovah was about to kill him.
But Zipporah [his wife] circumcised her son with a flint knife ... So Jehovah did not harm Moses.
Zipporah said, 'You are a bridegroom of blood'."
– Exodus 4.24-26
But Zipporah [his wife] circumcised her son with a flint knife ... So Jehovah did not harm Moses.
Zipporah said, 'You are a bridegroom of blood'."
– Exodus 4.24-26
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
– Deuteronomy 25.11-12.
– Deuteronomy 25.11-12.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"I Yahweh will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh in the siege and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life will distress them."
– Jeremiah 19.9.
– Jeremiah 19.9.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you ... shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them.
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
–Matthew 10.14-15.
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
–Matthew 10.14-15.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed!"
–1 Corinthians 16.22.
–1 Corinthians 16.22.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves ... obedience leads to righteousness?"
– Romans 6.16.
– Romans 6.16.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"I am jealous over you ... I fear your minds be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
– 2 Corinthians 11.2-3.
– 2 Corinthians 11.2-3.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"For the weapons of our warfare are casting down imaginations ... and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."
– St Paul, 2 Corinthians 10.4,5.
– St Paul, 2 Corinthians 10.4,5.
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
– Luke 19.27 *
– Luke 19.27 *
written by Mozlem , August 23, 2011
All paintings and statues show jesus with one look age and profile.
He never went bald never became old never was a child apart from the ones from stable.
How is it possible. What about his childhood and other looks?
He never went bald never became old never was a child apart from the ones from stable.
How is it possible. What about his childhood and other looks?
written by Machmoed , August 24, 2011
What childhood?
Jesus was a chinese guy. Some say he was black. More likely he was an indian and liked to smoke the pipe of peace. Now you know why he was peaceful to almost everyone. He indeed got the holy gost (smoke of weed or something like it). Mo wanted to show he was bigger and thought weed was for children. He did use some XTC and cocaine and that's why he was energetic in the sense to wage war against those who didn't believe he was a messenger. In the cave, he was not praying but smoking and then tripped. He saw angel/demon..who knows. We call it hallucination and we know that for example LSD can cause this. Mo was on drugs and so were all the so called prophets/messengers. How else can you explain God is telling Moses to sacrifice his son.
Hallucinations!
Jesus was a chinese guy. Some say he was black. More likely he was an indian and liked to smoke the pipe of peace. Now you know why he was peaceful to almost everyone. He indeed got the holy gost (smoke of weed or something like it). Mo wanted to show he was bigger and thought weed was for children. He did use some XTC and cocaine and that's why he was energetic in the sense to wage war against those who didn't believe he was a messenger. In the cave, he was not praying but smoking and then tripped. He saw angel/demon..who knows. We call it hallucination and we know that for example LSD can cause this. Mo was on drugs and so were all the so called prophets/messengers. How else can you explain God is telling Moses to sacrifice his son.
Hallucinations!
written by duh_swami , August 24, 2011
I read an article once that said that 'soma
of the gods' were hallucinatory mushrooms and that ancient Bible characters were in a mushroom cult...Parts of the Bible, particularly Revelations,
sound like mushroom hallucinations...
of the gods' were hallucinatory mushrooms and that ancient Bible characters were in a mushroom cult...Parts of the Bible, particularly Revelations,
sound like mushroom hallucinations...
written by Cerebrum123 , August 24, 2011
You are asking me to defend my faith without using that which my faith is based upon. This is like asking a Roman soldier to go into battle without armor or weapons ,and is something I will NOT do. I have answered several of your questions you have just ignored my answers. As for Adam's rib. If you cut off the tail of a mouse and it breeds won't the newborn mouse have a tail? It's the same principal here. Just like an amputee will be able to have a child that has all of it's limbs. Removal of something from the body physically doesn't remove the genetic information necessary to provide the next generation of that part of the body.Yes women are designed to bear children ,and continue to do so. One person said this about Eve "Eve wasn't made out of Adam's foot so that she wouldn't be his slave ,and she wasn't made out of his head so that she wouldn't rule over him ,but she was made from his rib so that she would be at his side as an equal".
@ Duh
I told you time and time again to read the Bible IN CONTEXT. When you read Genesis IN CONTEXT you will see that ALL of the plants and animals were made BEFORE Eve was ,and therefore she could not be mother of all living things. Revelations is prophecy and is highly symbolic ,Genesis however is historical narrative ,and when you read it in context ,and with the author's intent you would understand this.
@ Duh
I told you time and time again to read the Bible IN CONTEXT. When you read Genesis IN CONTEXT you will see that ALL of the plants and animals were made BEFORE Eve was ,and therefore she could not be mother of all living things. Revelations is prophecy and is highly symbolic ,Genesis however is historical narrative ,and when you read it in context ,and with the author's intent you would understand this.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 24, 2011
Every verse you have posted has been taken extremely out of context ,or twisted to fit your agenda. You are obviously just trying to find reasons to attack the Bible by any means necessary. This kind of attitude is not even worth addressing. If you have any real questions I would do my best to answer them ,but I would ask you to read the Bible in context before you ask a question.Honest debate ,and intelligent conversation I enjoy ,but outright attacks with no real basis other than hostility I try to avoid.
@ Duh
I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the accounts ,and the earliest copies we have date to just a few decades after Jesus died and rose from the dead. The Gospels are also the most well attested ancient documents we have. Even people like Plato and Socrates have much fewer available documents ,and from a much later time than when they died ,but I'm guessing you wouldn't question their works ,or any other ancient literature except what is found in the Bible. You reveal your extreme bias when you say that there is no proof that Jesus ever existed when there is even less proof of people like the above mentioned.
@ Duh
I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the accounts ,and the earliest copies we have date to just a few decades after Jesus died and rose from the dead. The Gospels are also the most well attested ancient documents we have. Even people like Plato and Socrates have much fewer available documents ,and from a much later time than when they died ,but I'm guessing you wouldn't question their works ,or any other ancient literature except what is found in the Bible. You reveal your extreme bias when you say that there is no proof that Jesus ever existed when there is even less proof of people like the above mentioned.
written by Mozlem , August 24, 2011
This is not an attack on bible. It is just bringing to your sight the beautiful words.
All you do is non stop cut and paste.
Your God is an imbecile who does not understand chromosmes. Men have XY chromosmes and women YY.
So a clone made of XY xhromosmes will have XY chromosmes not YY. You claim that god made women out of man. I will agree with you if you said gilman or some creature of sorts (externally female) but with male chromosmes. Go take some basic science courses and then explain all your science rats tail or arse dont matter.
Where do you get the missing Y chromosme from. Now you will say its gods ways again.
Phuleeze support this with some proper science not a cut and paste rant from bible. Can you get a thread of Cerebrum on this site where I will ask you questions till u say it is attack and refuse to answer.
BTW you did not say what I wrote is not from bible. If what I wrote is twisted can you untwist it.
All you said is out of context.......
All you do is non stop cut and paste.
Your God is an imbecile who does not understand chromosmes. Men have XY chromosmes and women YY.
So a clone made of XY xhromosmes will have XY chromosmes not YY. You claim that god made women out of man. I will agree with you if you said gilman or some creature of sorts (externally female) but with male chromosmes. Go take some basic science courses and then explain all your science rats tail or arse dont matter.
Where do you get the missing Y chromosme from. Now you will say its gods ways again.
Phuleeze support this with some proper science not a cut and paste rant from bible. Can you get a thread of Cerebrum on this site where I will ask you questions till u say it is attack and refuse to answer.
BTW you did not say what I wrote is not from bible. If what I wrote is twisted can you untwist it.
All you said is out of context.......
written by Mozlem , August 24, 2011
List of credible Jesuses
Jesus ben Sirach
Jesus ben Pandira
Jesus ben Ananias
Jesus Barabbas
Jesus ben Saphat
Jesus ben Gamala
Jesus ben Thebuth
Jesus ben Stada
The bigger trouble is nazareth did not exist utill 2nd century
More Bollox:- At the time that Joseph and the pregnant Mary are said to have gone off to Bethlehem for a supposed Roman census, Galilee (unlike Judaea) was not a Roman province and therefore ma and pa would have had no reason to make the journey.
Even if Galilee had been imperial territory, history knows of no ‘universal census’ ordered by Augustus (nor any other emperor) – and Roman taxes were based on property ownership not on a head count.
Jesus ben Sirach
Jesus ben Pandira
Jesus ben Ananias
Jesus Barabbas
Jesus ben Saphat
Jesus ben Gamala
Jesus ben Thebuth
Jesus ben Stada
The bigger trouble is nazareth did not exist utill 2nd century
More Bollox:- At the time that Joseph and the pregnant Mary are said to have gone off to Bethlehem for a supposed Roman census, Galilee (unlike Judaea) was not a Roman province and therefore ma and pa would have had no reason to make the journey.
Even if Galilee had been imperial territory, history knows of no ‘universal census’ ordered by Augustus (nor any other emperor) – and Roman taxes were based on property ownership not on a head count.
written by Mozlem , August 24, 2011
What are the following items ?
Breaking on the Wheel
Popes Pears
Judas Cradle
Gutting
Iron Spider
Strapado
Cats Paw
Extreme Makover
The Holy Trinity
Slow Burn
If you dont have courage to explain I can givve the defintions and explanations.
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
– (John 15:6).
Breaking on the Wheel
Popes Pears
Judas Cradle
Gutting
Iron Spider
Strapado
Cats Paw
Extreme Makover
The Holy Trinity
Slow Burn
If you dont have courage to explain I can givve the defintions and explanations.
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
– (John 15:6).
written by duh_swami , August 24, 2011
I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the accounts
Prove that eye witnesses wrote of the Gospels......
Prove that eye witnesses wrote of the Gospels......
written by Yibel , August 24, 2011
Correction for your basic science, that is biology, lesson:
Humans are created from 46 pairs of chromosomes; 23 from the male via the sperm and 23 from the female via the ovum. The ovum also contains the chromosomes for a cellular inclusion called a mitochondria which is necessary for life as it provides the energy to run the body's cells. The man has an XY combination for the 23rd pair, while the female has TWO Xs, NOT Ys. XX, NOT YY. To make a female from a cell taken from a male's rib would require separating out the 23 chromosome set containing the X, doubling it, and adding in the chromosomes for the mitochondral organelle. Voila! A new organism which is female. Female humans are NOT clones of the male of the species. Remember XX equal female!!!
Humans are created from 46 pairs of chromosomes; 23 from the male via the sperm and 23 from the female via the ovum. The ovum also contains the chromosomes for a cellular inclusion called a mitochondria which is necessary for life as it provides the energy to run the body's cells. The man has an XY combination for the 23rd pair, while the female has TWO Xs, NOT Ys. XX, NOT YY. To make a female from a cell taken from a male's rib would require separating out the 23 chromosome set containing the X, doubling it, and adding in the chromosomes for the mitochondral organelle. Voila! A new organism which is female. Female humans are NOT clones of the male of the species. Remember XX equal female!!!
written by Mozlem , August 24, 2011
Yes it was typo. It is XX not YY
So mitochondral organelle came from males ?
And why did we go through the process of using rib?
Do you think this process can be performed using any cell of course apart from the sperm?
Why would god go thru this exercise when he made universe out of nothing then decide to make adam out of clay and yet had another change of mind to make eve out of rib.
So mitochondral organelle came from males ?
And why did we go through the process of using rib?
Do you think this process can be performed using any cell of course apart from the sperm?
Why would god go thru this exercise when he made universe out of nothing then decide to make adam out of clay and yet had another change of mind to make eve out of rib.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , August 25, 2011
You said "Your God is an imbecile who does not understand chromosomes. Men have XY chromosomes and women YY."
Earlier you said you are not attacking the Bible with the numerous copy and paste verses that have no relationship with the topic under discussion but your motive can be read. Now what is your grudge with the God of the Bible? I hope you know that they are not the same with the God of the Quran?
Concerning the women having the YY chromosomes where did you learn your science from? I know of XX chromosomes for women. Can you explain your genetic chromosomology to us?
Earlier you said you are not attacking the Bible with the numerous copy and paste verses that have no relationship with the topic under discussion but your motive can be read. Now what is your grudge with the God of the Bible? I hope you know that they are not the same with the God of the Quran?
Concerning the women having the YY chromosomes where did you learn your science from? I know of XX chromosomes for women. Can you explain your genetic chromosomology to us?
written by Mozlem , August 25, 2011
Can you re read YY as XX .
Did you not read the above post where I said it was a typo.
Cerebrum in his posts expressed love of God from god yada yada but cut and paste from Bible.
So the cut and paste was in response to express solidarity of Gods love in bible.
I dont have grudge against god of bible or Quran for I dont beleive in either of the fairy tale.
Please give your explaination of how women was created out of male rib using
XX chromosome instead of YY
Did you not read the above post where I said it was a typo.
Cerebrum in his posts expressed love of God from god yada yada but cut and paste from Bible.
So the cut and paste was in response to express solidarity of Gods love in bible.
I dont have grudge against god of bible or Quran for I dont beleive in either of the fairy tale.
Please give your explaination of how women was created out of male rib using
XX chromosome instead of YY
written by Cerebrum123 , August 25, 2011
You prove your obvious bias against the Bible when you call the history contained within a fairy tale ,but I will untwist these things you bought up to the best of my ability. First off I will deal with the creation of Eve. God created DNA in the first place ,and is capable of manipulating it in any way He wants including the substitution of one chromosome for another. This isn't a real problem for God since He is all powerful . It is only a problem with your psychological understanding of God's power ,and the limits you put on Him. The first point you bring up about God loving blood you used the wrong passage if that's the message you wanted to convey ,because this part of Exodus has to do with the circumcision of Moses' son ,and Zipporah becoming a part of Moses' people. The statement "Bridegroom of blood" basically means becoming a member of the family through blood. If you wanted to convey the message God loves blood there are several verses that would have been better such as this Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.
On to your next point. This was one of God's laws given to the Israelites. They accepted a covenant to follow God's laws to the letter ,and if they did so they would receive immense blessings. Since they knew these laws came directly from God ,that means that they knew breaking one of these laws would bring upon them great punishment. Also this has nothing to do with sex or sadism ,just carrying out the punishment for breaking one of God's laws.
The next point about cannibalism has to do directly with an the rewards and punishment God already told them about in Leviticus 26. This chapter is too long to put here ,but I will put the relevant part Leviticus 26:27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.
On to your next point. This was one of God's laws given to the Israelites. They accepted a covenant to follow God's laws to the letter ,and if they did so they would receive immense blessings. Since they knew these laws came directly from God ,that means that they knew breaking one of these laws would bring upon them great punishment. Also this has nothing to do with sex or sadism ,just carrying out the punishment for breaking one of God's laws.
The next point about cannibalism has to do directly with an the rewards and punishment God already told them about in Leviticus 26. This chapter is too long to put here ,but I will put the relevant part Leviticus 26:27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 25, 2011
As for you trying to say Jesus is spiteful let's look at this part in context. Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
As you can see this brings a much bigger picture to this than the small part you put. This shows that they were in these towns healing the sick ,preaching God's word ,and casting out demons. The part you showed has to do only with the towns where not a single person would accept them to even stay for a night's rest.
As for your point about corruption I have to ask you what translation you are using because this is what I found for those verses 2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
As you can see this brings a much bigger picture to this than the small part you put. This shows that they were in these towns healing the sick ,preaching God's word ,and casting out demons. The part you showed has to do only with the towns where not a single person would accept them to even stay for a night's rest.
As for your point about corruption I have to ask you what translation you are using because this is what I found for those verses 2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 25, 2011
As for your point about stopping thinking and imagining I again have to ask you which translation you are using because this is what I get 2 Corinthians 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
As for your point called Love or lie here it is in context Luke 19:11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’
17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’
18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’
19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’
22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’
24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
As for your point called Love or lie here it is in context Luke 19:11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’
17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’
18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’
19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’
22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’
24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
written by Mozlem , August 25, 2011
Any thing that is not logical is a fairy tale.
1. God makes Universe out of nothing so if there was nothing where was he.
2. He makes all things living and plants out of nothing or unknown
3. he has change of heart or brain lapse and decides to make Adam out of clay maybe he ran out of nothing.
4. He has yet another change of plan so he makes eve out of adams rib.
5. He realises the DNA and chromosmes in men and women are different so he manipulates them.
6. He finds there is missing DNA Mitochindrial orgenelle which is just present in females so he put it either out of nothing or out of clay for it was not present in Adam.
A. God is really very confused because he is still experimenting and changing his manufacturing process.
B. If he used this process then it is a fairy tale.
1. God makes Universe out of nothing so if there was nothing where was he.
2. He makes all things living and plants out of nothing or unknown
3. he has change of heart or brain lapse and decides to make Adam out of clay maybe he ran out of nothing.
4. He has yet another change of plan so he makes eve out of adams rib.
5. He realises the DNA and chromosmes in men and women are different so he manipulates them.
6. He finds there is missing DNA Mitochindrial orgenelle which is just present in females so he put it either out of nothing or out of clay for it was not present in Adam.
A. God is really very confused because he is still experimenting and changing his manufacturing process.
B. If he used this process then it is a fairy tale.
written by duh_swami , August 25, 2011
No part of the Adam and Eve story can pass the reality test if looked at from the real person, real event point of view...How could the author of this story know all the minute details since he was not there to observe them? Someone was the first person to write this story down...How did this person know this material? Where did he get it?
Do you notice that this is the story of causation, conception and birth?
'God' caused the universe, including the Earth...Then he conceived Adam and then he conceived Eve...When it was time for them to leave the womb garden, they were expelled...born...This only applies to humans by implication...For the purposes of this story, they are not humans, they represent the life principal...The trials in the womb garden and the loss of innocence, represents the difficulties of the birth channel...Birth for them represents the life principal free on the planet to 'go forth and multiply'...That's why Eve is the 'Mother of all living'...Which is interesting because if that is the case, Eve would have to be older than Adam...because if she is the mother of all living she had to birth them before Adam could name them...but Adam named them before Eve showed up...
'God' apparently created animals in the womb garden and had not yet deposited them on the planet, but if God created them, how is she the mother of all living? Well she's not if you think she is a human, you will think of her in a limited role of human only...There is no evidence that animals were expelled from he garden along with Adam and Eve...So how did they get from there, the heavenly garden, to here on the semi-heavenly planet? Eve is the mother of all living because she is a principal, not a human...a human has limitations, the life principal only has the limitation of environment...Life (Eve) will produce forms, (give birth to) where ever conditions permit it...She is 'The Mother of All Living'...Causation, conception, birth...
Do you notice that this is the story of causation, conception and birth?
'God' caused the universe, including the Earth...Then he conceived Adam and then he conceived Eve...When it was time for them to leave the womb garden, they were expelled...born...This only applies to humans by implication...For the purposes of this story, they are not humans, they represent the life principal...The trials in the womb garden and the loss of innocence, represents the difficulties of the birth channel...Birth for them represents the life principal free on the planet to 'go forth and multiply'...That's why Eve is the 'Mother of all living'...Which is interesting because if that is the case, Eve would have to be older than Adam...because if she is the mother of all living she had to birth them before Adam could name them...but Adam named them before Eve showed up...
'God' apparently created animals in the womb garden and had not yet deposited them on the planet, but if God created them, how is she the mother of all living? Well she's not if you think she is a human, you will think of her in a limited role of human only...There is no evidence that animals were expelled from he garden along with Adam and Eve...So how did they get from there, the heavenly garden, to here on the semi-heavenly planet? Eve is the mother of all living because she is a principal, not a human...a human has limitations, the life principal only has the limitation of environment...Life (Eve) will produce forms, (give birth to) where ever conditions permit it...She is 'The Mother of All Living'...Causation, conception, birth...
written by Cerebrum123 , August 25, 2011
As for your point about slavery. Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.This is very different than the slavery you are suggesting. Just as I told you when read in context these things are very different from what you would have them be. On your question of what Jesus looked like ,I don't think anybody today really knows that. The Bible says that He wasn't that attractive to the point of being extremely average in appearance. Nazareth DID exist during the time of Jesus. Archaeological finds have this isolated city populated by a probably amounted to a few hundred people. Also there WAS a census during that time ,but people only speculated that it didn't happen in the exact way described by the Bible ,because they didn't believe the Romans would do it that way until they found a papyrus scroll dated around 104 A.D. during the time of Trajan.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 25, 2011
I haven't heard any of those terms except for the Holy Trinity which consists of God the Father ,God the Son (Jesus) ,and the Holy Spirit. Part 4 of my reply has been taken to be reviewed by administrators. I hope it appears soon.
@ Duh
If you reject the Gospels than you have to reject every other ancient document that has less of a verification than them ,and that is nearly every other ancient document out there. All of the people living at the time would have rejected the Gospels if these weren't eyewitness accounts ,because that is what they claimed to be ,and these documents were not written by the only eyewitnesses to these events. There were hundreds of people who witnessed the miracles of Jesus ,and a lot of these people accepted the Gospels and formed the early Christian Churches.Here is a good article on the reliability of the Gospels http://www.answersingenesis.or...t-reliable
The people on this site use real science and archaeology as well as researching history. I suggest you actually give it a look since you are so "open-minded" ,and you say that you really care about the truth. The only way to find the truth is to look for it from as many sources as you can. If you completely reject one outright without giving it consideration you have the possibility of missing the truth entirely. I studied Islam because I wanted to know what it was truly about ,and I have been studying many other things as well ,and they all fall short of the mark except for the Bible ,and the truth contained within.
@ Duh
If you reject the Gospels than you have to reject every other ancient document that has less of a verification than them ,and that is nearly every other ancient document out there. All of the people living at the time would have rejected the Gospels if these weren't eyewitness accounts ,because that is what they claimed to be ,and these documents were not written by the only eyewitnesses to these events. There were hundreds of people who witnessed the miracles of Jesus ,and a lot of these people accepted the Gospels and formed the early Christian Churches.Here is a good article on the reliability of the Gospels http://www.answersingenesis.or...t-reliable
The people on this site use real science and archaeology as well as researching history. I suggest you actually give it a look since you are so "open-minded" ,and you say that you really care about the truth. The only way to find the truth is to look for it from as many sources as you can. If you completely reject one outright without giving it consideration you have the possibility of missing the truth entirely. I studied Islam because I wanted to know what it was truly about ,and I have been studying many other things as well ,and they all fall short of the mark except for the Bible ,and the truth contained within.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 25, 2011
The Garden of Eden was located on this physical Earth ,and so were the plants and animals. The Garden of Eden was a specific place. The Bible said that it was in the east. The Bible also says that there were four rivers connected to the Garden of Eden to water the plants.All they had to do to leave Eden was walk outside of this area. The rest of the land would have been wild since Eden was a garden.Eden was also the location of both the Tree of Life ,and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We no longer know the location of Eden because the Flood of Noah changed the entire Earth. Eve was the first human woman ,and Adam was the first human man. They were kicked out of Eden so that they would not eat from the Tree of Life ,and be subsequently immortal. This was a blessing since the curse inflicted on them would cause immense suffering. Who would want to suffer on this Earth forever? You again have taken a historical narrative ,and twisted it to fit your agenda as symbolism.
@ Mozlem
Who said that God changed His mind? The Bible doesn't say that. God planned to create this way before hand.God is eternal and is not bound by time or this universe which He created. He exists in what might be called an extra-dimensional place called Heaven.All of your comments except the first two in your post are speculation. God is only confused ,and weak if evolution is true.I'll end with this Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
@ Mozlem
Who said that God changed His mind? The Bible doesn't say that. God planned to create this way before hand.God is eternal and is not bound by time or this universe which He created. He exists in what might be called an extra-dimensional place called Heaven.All of your comments except the first two in your post are speculation. God is only confused ,and weak if evolution is true.I'll end with this Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
written by Cerebrum123 , August 25, 2011
Moses was the one who wrote the book of Genesis as we know it ,and was told by God through inspiration what to write. He may have also had written materials ,and oral histories passed down through the generations. You have no proof that Moses didn't write the first 5 books of the Bible. You also have no proof that Moses did not exist. All you have is an argument from silence. The original witness to these events is God ,and He made sure that they were revealed to mankind. You always put limitations on God ,but none on man ,and this is causing major problems in your understanding of the Bible. God's revealed Word is higher than man's opinion ,not the other way around as you have suggested. You asked what a perfect universe would look like ,and I will tell you the obvious truth ,I DON"T KNOW. I have never experienced perfection ,and neither have you. Only God has perfection ,and He is the one who revealed these accounts to mankind. His Word is 100% trustworthy because His Word is perfect in truth. This is what I have been trying to explain to you especially about evolution. Evolution (and when I use the word evolution I mean all creatures coming from a single ancestor type of evolution) is merely an assumption about what could have happened ,and there is no evidence to support it so they use the tactic of bait and switch by saying that natural selection ,mutation , and adaption(which are real) are the driving forces of the kind of evolution I speak of(which these principles run in the exact opposite of what is necessary for monkeys to man evolution).The same goes with the idea that the Earth is billions of years old. All of the methods of testing use unverified assumptions to reach these incredibly old ages for the Earth. You blindly believe these ideas because of another bait and switch where they say a creation ,and young Earth view is religion ,and evolution and an old Earth view is "science". This commonly used statement is a flat out lie. Evolution is unobservable ,and is not subject to the scientific method. Unlike your blind belief in these things ,I do NOT believe in the Bible blindly. I gave you earlier a list of reasons I trust the Bible ,and you rejected them. Any real reason to believe something is better than blindly believing what people tell you to believe.
written by duh_swami , August 25, 2011
Your lame explanations are of the kindergarten variety, frankly I'm sick of 'your'
twisting facts to fit 'your' agenda...No one has a valid point unless it fits your narrow and childish view... Supremacist bigots are like that...People who are deeper thinkers than you are, recognize there is symbolism in the Bible, both by word and number, where not everything is exactly as it is stated...I didn't invent it and your not so credible statements can't destroy it...
Besides credibility the Bible is often ambiguous...As an example of that, what does 'Thou shall not kill', mean? I would read your response to that if it is not too long and then explain the ambiguity...one of many...
twisting facts to fit 'your' agenda...No one has a valid point unless it fits your narrow and childish view... Supremacist bigots are like that...People who are deeper thinkers than you are, recognize there is symbolism in the Bible, both by word and number, where not everything is exactly as it is stated...I didn't invent it and your not so credible statements can't destroy it...
Besides credibility the Bible is often ambiguous...As an example of that, what does 'Thou shall not kill', mean? I would read your response to that if it is not too long and then explain the ambiguity...one of many...
written by Mozlem , August 25, 2011
"And the Lord God said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (3: 22, 24.)
Why did God become so jealous of Adam's becoming His equal in knowledge, and was it such a bad thing indeed? Why did He entertain such misgivings at all since no one can ever become God's equal? This also shows that he was not God but man. Wherever there is mention of God in the Bible it is related of Him as if He was a man. Now mark! How miserable Adam's progress in knowledge made God! How jealous He was of Adam's eating the fruit of the tree of life.
When he first placed Adam and Eve in the garden (of Eden), he was not aware that he would have to turn them out of it. It follows, therefore, that the ChristianGod is not Omniscient. That he had to place a flaming sword to guard the tree of life clearly shows that God was jealous of man.
.
Why did God become so jealous of Adam's becoming His equal in knowledge, and was it such a bad thing indeed? Why did He entertain such misgivings at all since no one can ever become God's equal? This also shows that he was not God but man. Wherever there is mention of God in the Bible it is related of Him as if He was a man. Now mark! How miserable Adam's progress in knowledge made God! How jealous He was of Adam's eating the fruit of the tree of life.
When he first placed Adam and Eve in the garden (of Eden), he was not aware that he would have to turn them out of it. It follows, therefore, that the ChristianGod is not Omniscient. That he had to place a flaming sword to guard the tree of life clearly shows that God was jealous of man.
.
written by Machmoed , August 26, 2011
The Garden of Eden was located on this physical Earth ,and so were the plants and animals. The Garden of Eden was a specific place. The Bible said that it was in the east.
How specific.....in the east. Wow, archeologists must be blind. Like i said before, this earth in our solar system in our galaxy we call the milky way and all the rest of the universe is not ment to be eternal. We are just a tiny specie in history and time of the earth. Earth needed billions of years to become what it is know. It has been constinantly changing and it still does constantly. No eternal place on this earth could have existed since the birth of the earth. I geuss it's hard to understand this simple fact!
How specific.....in the east. Wow, archeologists must be blind. Like i said before, this earth in our solar system in our galaxy we call the milky way and all the rest of the universe is not ment to be eternal. We are just a tiny specie in history and time of the earth. Earth needed billions of years to become what it is know. It has been constinantly changing and it still does constantly. No eternal place on this earth could have existed since the birth of the earth. I geuss it's hard to understand this simple fact!
written by Cerebrum123 , August 26, 2011
You are using eisegesis ,which is when you read what you want to into a written document instead of what is actually there. God was not "jealous" of Adam learning what is right and wrong ,and this is nowhere said in the Bible. He kept Adam from eating the fruit of the Tree of Life so that Adam would not become immortal. Can you imagine living on this Earth with all it's pain ,suffering ,and disease for all eternity? Instead of people trying to be immortal like they do now they would have been trying to figure out a way to die.This was a blessing ,and not something God did out of jealousy. Where does it say that God didn't know that they would disobey Him? This is all simply your own speculation.
@ Machmoed
First off the Earth is NOT billions of years old. All of the dating methods that show this age are based on unproven or sometimes even entirely wrong assumptions. Also whoever said that Eden was an eternal place? I also never said I have the specific coordinates for Eden's location. I only said that it was a specific place ,and not specific directions to it. Eden was lost during Noah's flood ,and we have no way of ever knowing where it originally was. Also since the universe was created perfect the universe itself would have the capability of eternity since God would sustain it in it's perfect condition. Things didn't work out that way though ,and the curse has affected all of the universe.
@ Machmoed
First off the Earth is NOT billions of years old. All of the dating methods that show this age are based on unproven or sometimes even entirely wrong assumptions. Also whoever said that Eden was an eternal place? I also never said I have the specific coordinates for Eden's location. I only said that it was a specific place ,and not specific directions to it. Eden was lost during Noah's flood ,and we have no way of ever knowing where it originally was. Also since the universe was created perfect the universe itself would have the capability of eternity since God would sustain it in it's perfect condition. Things didn't work out that way though ,and the curse has affected all of the universe.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 26, 2011
I am not twisting any facts. Genesis was written as a historical narrative. Even Hebrew scholars who disagree with the Bible will agree with the fact that Genesis was written ,and intended to be understood in this way. Here are a couple of them and what they have said. Dr. James Barr (Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University), who himself does not believe Genesis is true history, nonetheless admitted as far as the language of Genesis 1 is concerned that
So far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s Flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.16
In like manner, nineteenth century liberal Professor Marcus Dods, New College, Edinburgh, said,
If, for example, the word “day” in these chapters does not mean a period of twenty-four hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless.
Thou shalt not kill means that you should not murder. I would think anyone would be able to figure that one out.
So far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s Flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.16
In like manner, nineteenth century liberal Professor Marcus Dods, New College, Edinburgh, said,
If, for example, the word “day” in these chapters does not mean a period of twenty-four hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless.
Thou shalt not kill means that you should not murder. I would think anyone would be able to figure that one out.
written by Machmoed , August 26, 2011
First off the Earth is NOT billions of years old.
I already know your view and that is not what we teach children at school. I geuss you missed some. Tell me, how old is the moon or our sun?
Why do we have kind of little bone near our ear we don't use anymore. Everybody has it, but it is just there and actually it is very common in nature. Is it a mistake of God?
I already know your view and that is not what we teach children at school. I geuss you missed some. Tell me, how old is the moon or our sun?
Why do we have kind of little bone near our ear we don't use anymore. Everybody has it, but it is just there and actually it is very common in nature. Is it a mistake of God?
written by duh_swami , August 26, 2011
All your arguments are weak, and are based on the assumption of real Bible history...Your assumptions are just that, assumptions...
'Thou shalt not kill means that you should not murder. I would think anyone would be able to figure that one out'.
Then why does my bible use the word 'kill' and not 'murder'? 'Thou shall not kill', has no qualifiers, 'thou shall not murder'
does...They are connected ideas, but not the same idea...Christians tell me that the older scriptures use the word 'murder', how do we know that they didn't make a mistake and the right word is 'kill'?...These same Christians tell me that my Bible is the word of God and I can rely on it...Yet if 'Thou shall not kill', in my Bible actually means something other than what it says, how can I rely on it? Killing can include murder, but not all killing is murder, unless you take, 'Thou shall not kill' in it's general meaning
of not killing anything at all...The word 'murder' changes the equation entirely...So which is right, abstaining from killing generally, or abstaining from killing humans only?...My Bible says 'Thou shall not kill'...I suppose if God almighty wanted my Bible to say 'murder', it would, but it does not, it says not to kill period, no qualifiers, not limited to humans only...So who am I to believe, you or God?
Meister Eckhardt a 16 century catholic priest, wrote' 'God does not love creatures as creatures, God loves creature as God...So how can we hypocrites tell God how much we love him when we are torturing and killing his beloved who he see's as himself? This is the root of 'Thou shall not kill'...The refusal to kill life, is the highest possible ecology, and saves one from gross hypocrisy...
'Thou shalt not kill means that you should not murder. I would think anyone would be able to figure that one out'.
Then why does my bible use the word 'kill' and not 'murder'? 'Thou shall not kill', has no qualifiers, 'thou shall not murder'
does...They are connected ideas, but not the same idea...Christians tell me that the older scriptures use the word 'murder', how do we know that they didn't make a mistake and the right word is 'kill'?...These same Christians tell me that my Bible is the word of God and I can rely on it...Yet if 'Thou shall not kill', in my Bible actually means something other than what it says, how can I rely on it? Killing can include murder, but not all killing is murder, unless you take, 'Thou shall not kill' in it's general meaning
of not killing anything at all...The word 'murder' changes the equation entirely...So which is right, abstaining from killing generally, or abstaining from killing humans only?...My Bible says 'Thou shall not kill'...I suppose if God almighty wanted my Bible to say 'murder', it would, but it does not, it says not to kill period, no qualifiers, not limited to humans only...So who am I to believe, you or God?
Meister Eckhardt a 16 century catholic priest, wrote' 'God does not love creatures as creatures, God loves creature as God...So how can we hypocrites tell God how much we love him when we are torturing and killing his beloved who he see's as himself? This is the root of 'Thou shall not kill'...The refusal to kill life, is the highest possible ecology, and saves one from gross hypocrisy...
written by Mozlem , August 26, 2011
Can you imagine living on this Earth with all it's pain ,suffering ,and disease for all eternity?
Why would your God give pain , suffering and disease to man.
You said earlier that man is image of God. So if your god suffers from disease pain and suffering he is not god is he?.
God is unjust for he gives all this on earth and then again repeats it in hell.
Your arguments hold no weight. I have a long list of questions but you are not able to answer even one so no pint in asking you any further.
Why would your God give pain , suffering and disease to man.
You said earlier that man is image of God. So if your god suffers from disease pain and suffering he is not god is he?.
God is unjust for he gives all this on earth and then again repeats it in hell.
Your arguments hold no weight. I have a long list of questions but you are not able to answer even one so no pint in asking you any further.
written by duh_swami , August 26, 2011
Can you imagine living on this Earth with all it's pain ,suffering ,and disease for all eternity?
Then why do it at all? The religious types promise hell to unrepentant sinners which is even worse than pain suffering and disease of the planet...It is possible to escape most pain, suffering and disease on the planet, but you cannot escape it in Gods torture chamber...
Eventually science will make the subject mute...Death and disease will be overcome and people will live in perpetuity except death by accident...When people in heaven and hell find out that science has achieved human immortality, they will try and find their way back...Heaven may be a great place but there are no burger palaces, and hell does not have one movie theater...
Then why do it at all? The religious types promise hell to unrepentant sinners which is even worse than pain suffering and disease of the planet...It is possible to escape most pain, suffering and disease on the planet, but you cannot escape it in Gods torture chamber...
Eventually science will make the subject mute...Death and disease will be overcome and people will live in perpetuity except death by accident...When people in heaven and hell find out that science has achieved human immortality, they will try and find their way back...Heaven may be a great place but there are no burger palaces, and hell does not have one movie theater...
written by Dwito , August 26, 2011
More than that, if god has created pain and diseases etc. to suffer, he must have specified some terms and conditions for the same. So how come some diseases and pains are beaten by scientists permanently? Doesn’t this mean they overcome the rule of their creator and thus become more powerful than god? So how God could be most powerful, that he cannot restrain his creatures within his limited boundary?
written by Mozlem , August 26, 2011
Lets make heaven on earth!!
God will be more jealous............
God will be more jealous............
written by Malem , August 26, 2011
Be a servernt to Allah with your heart and mind and you will find peace like heaven on earth.
Dwito - Man has created these diseases, man can cure them. What disease has Allah created? He created man perfectly as all his creations were. Man has used his free will to taint that creation with diseases.
Dwito - Man has created these diseases, man can cure them. What disease has Allah created? He created man perfectly as all his creations were. Man has used his free will to taint that creation with diseases.
written by Mozlem , August 26, 2011
Malman = Monkey see monkey do.
Isnt all of Middle east heaven on earth.
All muslims of the region are so overwhelmed with joy and peace that they all want to escape to the western world.
Malman created HIV and he is a liar.
Isnt all of Middle east heaven on earth.
All muslims of the region are so overwhelmed with joy and peace that they all want to escape to the western world.
Malman created HIV and he is a liar.
written by Mozlem , August 26, 2011
Man has created these diseases, man can cure them. What disease has Allah created? He created man perfectly as all his creations were. Man has used his free will to taint that creation with diseases.
Man (MalMan) created worms, bacteria, parasites viruses and genetic defects to name a few.
Genetic defects yes man made for incest (cousin marriage) and inbreeding does indeed give genetic diseases of which muslims are a prime example.
I was not aware muslims like Malman created other all other diseases as well and I am happy for once Malman did not blame diseases on Jews.
Man (MalMan) created worms, bacteria, parasites viruses and genetic defects to name a few.
Genetic defects yes man made for incest (cousin marriage) and inbreeding does indeed give genetic diseases of which muslims are a prime example.
I was not aware muslims like Malman created other all other diseases as well and I am happy for once Malman did not blame diseases on Jews.
written by Yibel , August 26, 2011
First of all, I also made typo in my previous post: I meant to say 46 chromosomes (23 pairs): one set of 23 from male, other set of 23 from female; and the mitochondria has its own DNA which is separate from the 23 pairs.
Back to the biology lesson which you should have had in high school.
Every cell in the human body has a rod-shaped organelle within it called a
mitochondria. The mitochondria provide the energy cells need to move, divide,
produce secretory products, contract, etc. They convert oxygen and nutrients into
adenosine triphosphate (ATP), the chemical energy that powers the cell's metabolic
activities. Mitochondria are found in nearly all eukaryote cells of plants, animals, fungi, and protists. Humans need large amounts of energy in order to survive and the
mitochondria are the power centers of the cell providing that energy. Google
mitochondria for more info and check out www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrS2uROUjK4
Now, back to the creation story in Genesis 2...By taking a cell from a rib (or more
probably, a progenitor cell from the breast, the region of the ribs), and replicating
it, one could produce another being, a clone. But by splitting the DNA in that cell
to one set (23) of chromosomes, doubling that set, and adding in the mitochondria
from that cell, one could produce a 46 chromosome being with an XX combination for
the 23rd pair; in other words, a female of the species. Why start again from clay
when one cell is already there with everything you need?
As for the universe creation plan (Genesis 1): Matter can become energy and energy
can become matter: E=MC2... It is NOT creating something out of nothing. This is the Big Bang Theory!! In the beginning there was light. Light is energy. Energy is something! Next, G-d divided the light from the light (he made galaxies full of stars
and planets) and he created darkness between the galaxies (dark matter). Then he
divided the waters above (clouds) from the waters below (oceans) here on Earth
(evaporation and condensation). Then G-d raised up the land masses on the earth (he created a firmament within the waters). Then he created plants both in the water and on land, followed by land and sea creatures, and then birds. On the 6th day (or
creation period, or phase, if you will) G-d created man. Then he rested and
sanctified the 7th day as a period of rest. G-d declared a day off, so we get a day
off, too. Cool!!!
Back on topic...since this is a thread about atheism...Is there a god, or not...Just look at how wonderously we are made! Job 37-41.
Back to the biology lesson which you should have had in high school.
Every cell in the human body has a rod-shaped organelle within it called a
mitochondria. The mitochondria provide the energy cells need to move, divide,
produce secretory products, contract, etc. They convert oxygen and nutrients into
adenosine triphosphate (ATP), the chemical energy that powers the cell's metabolic
activities. Mitochondria are found in nearly all eukaryote cells of plants, animals, fungi, and protists. Humans need large amounts of energy in order to survive and the
mitochondria are the power centers of the cell providing that energy. Google
mitochondria for more info and check out www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrS2uROUjK4
Now, back to the creation story in Genesis 2...By taking a cell from a rib (or more
probably, a progenitor cell from the breast, the region of the ribs), and replicating
it, one could produce another being, a clone. But by splitting the DNA in that cell
to one set (23) of chromosomes, doubling that set, and adding in the mitochondria
from that cell, one could produce a 46 chromosome being with an XX combination for
the 23rd pair; in other words, a female of the species. Why start again from clay
when one cell is already there with everything you need?
As for the universe creation plan (Genesis 1): Matter can become energy and energy
can become matter: E=MC2... It is NOT creating something out of nothing. This is the Big Bang Theory!! In the beginning there was light. Light is energy. Energy is something! Next, G-d divided the light from the light (he made galaxies full of stars
and planets) and he created darkness between the galaxies (dark matter). Then he
divided the waters above (clouds) from the waters below (oceans) here on Earth
(evaporation and condensation). Then G-d raised up the land masses on the earth (he created a firmament within the waters). Then he created plants both in the water and on land, followed by land and sea creatures, and then birds. On the 6th day (or
creation period, or phase, if you will) G-d created man. Then he rested and
sanctified the 7th day as a period of rest. G-d declared a day off, so we get a day
off, too. Cool!!!
Back on topic...since this is a thread about atheism...Is there a god, or not...Just look at how wonderously we are made! Job 37-41.
written by duh_swami , August 26, 2011
Allah created the heavens and Earth then set man down into a beautiful jungle...Full of germs and vermin, leaches, flesh eating fish, gators, snakes, spiders, nasty microbes, a terrorist behind every tree, and every kind of dangerous thing, that has one main purpose...to kill you...You can thank the Lord for that...
written by Mozlem , August 26, 2011
And he created Mo...............................
.
.
written by Mozlem , August 26, 2011
the fruit of the Tree of Life.
For whom was the tree of life planted in garden of eden if God formbade / prevented man from eating it and later on did not allow him any where near it.
Maybe it was tree of wisdom and u missed eating the fruit.
For whom was the tree of life planted in garden of eden if God formbade / prevented man from eating it and later on did not allow him any where near it.
Maybe it was tree of wisdom and u missed eating the fruit.
written by duh_swami , August 27, 2011
Cerebrum is a literal Bible believer...To him the Bible is 100%, and all of the characters in the stories were real people living real events...Literalists have sunk their feet in cement and can't move to a different position...This is why he is beyond reason and will attempt to explain away all objections or inconsistencies...
Clement and Reed also have their feet in cement and cannot move, they too try and explain away all objections and inconsistencies...
What makes them supremacists is that they believe that they got the message and you did not...This puts them in a superior position from which to look down on you...What makes them bigots is that your opinions are just your opinions, but their opinions are fact...
There are a lot of bigots on the planet, not all of them are religious, but religious bigots in heat is a sight to behold...We see this regularly on I-W...
Clement and Reed also have their feet in cement and cannot move, they too try and explain away all objections and inconsistencies...
What makes them supremacists is that they believe that they got the message and you did not...This puts them in a superior position from which to look down on you...What makes them bigots is that your opinions are just your opinions, but their opinions are fact...
There are a lot of bigots on the planet, not all of them are religious, but religious bigots in heat is a sight to behold...We see this regularly on I-W...
written by Mozlem , August 27, 2011
Dear D Swami
I agree with you on what you have said.
If one follows bible in litral sence God of bible man is just another human and cerbrum does not get it.
There was a long list of questions for him but all he does is cut and paste from bible.
I agree with you on what you have said.
If one follows bible in litral sence God of bible man is just another human and cerbrum does not get it.
There was a long list of questions for him but all he does is cut and paste from bible.
written by Cerebrum123 , August 30, 2011
This will be my last post unless I feel lead by God to return here. I realize now that this "debate" is not a debate at all. I only have a few last things to say. Duh you say I am stuck in cement ,and that my mind is closed ,I ask you why I should move from the only firm foundation based in the truth that is Jesus Christ ,and why I should open my mind to receive lies and accept them as equally valid as the truth?I don't have a message you don't have ,I just have accepted a message you have not ,that is the only difference. This doesn't make me superior to you in any way ,and I have never claimed to be superior either. You claim that your mind is open ,and that you do not have a faith to defend. If your mind is so open then you would give serious consideration to the claims of the Bible ,and actually try to see if they pass the test of truth. If you did not have a faith to defend then you would not attack ,and mock my beliefs and positions so violently. You have yourself stuck in cement as well just instead of it being your feet ,it is your eyes and ears. You wander about aimlessly with no guide of either sight or sound. I have tried to have reasonable debates using logic and reason ,but you resort nothing but logical fallacies ,mostly ad hominem attacks. You never gave a refutation to anything I said other than a definition of the word manuscript. Mozlem I gave you numerous answers to your questions ,but you ignored them because I used the Bible. The problem with that is that the answers to your questions come from the Bible. Jesus was a man yes ,but He was also God. God is a trinity of three persons in one nature. We were created in His image ,and each of us is a person as well. This was done so that we could have a relationship with Him. This kind of relationship would be impossible if we had nothing at all in common with our Creator ,and had no way of knowing Him. I have tried to have debates based on reason and logic ,but all I get in response from people here is attacks and logical fallacies. I have been trying to do this out of the love that comes from Christ. I will continue to pray for the people here. I will continue to hope that someday what I have said on here will be received by someone who will at least be willing enough to investigate the claims of the Bible with an open heart. May God show Himself to you in a way that I could not show Him to you. With the love that is in Jesus Christ goodbye.
written by Mozlem , August 30, 2011
"I have tried to have reasonable debates using logic and reason, but you resort nothing but logical fallacies"
Cerebrum I agree with you on this 100% that all you did was use bible for your answers and explanations and mostly it was cut and paste.
Your explanations defied and defy laws of science (physics, chemistry and biology).
You want me to believe all you said as a snake oil salesman who has one solution to every ailment and that is his snake oil. You have a strong belief but it defies logic and rationale. Moreover your belief is selective. For example you believe the age of earth AKA dinosaurs existed recently. You gave an example of soft tissue but failed to contradict when I wrote that further investigation proved there was no soft tissue but bacterial film. There were 20 questions on Gods unjustness posted on this site and I have another set of 100 more on your bible but this is a Islam-Watch site so I don’t want to add more noise.
Feel free to make up your blog for Wordpress will give you this service for free and we can discuss till the cows come home.
With more LOVE then Jesus Christ would give. Goodbye
Cerebrum I agree with you on this 100% that all you did was use bible for your answers and explanations and mostly it was cut and paste.
Your explanations defied and defy laws of science (physics, chemistry and biology).
You want me to believe all you said as a snake oil salesman who has one solution to every ailment and that is his snake oil. You have a strong belief but it defies logic and rationale. Moreover your belief is selective. For example you believe the age of earth AKA dinosaurs existed recently. You gave an example of soft tissue but failed to contradict when I wrote that further investigation proved there was no soft tissue but bacterial film. There were 20 questions on Gods unjustness posted on this site and I have another set of 100 more on your bible but this is a Islam-Watch site so I don’t want to add more noise.
Feel free to make up your blog for Wordpress will give you this service for free and we can discuss till the cows come home.
With more LOVE then Jesus Christ would give. Goodbye
written by duh_swami , August 30, 2011
Why don't you tell all that depressing stuff to someone who gives a sht...You start out as a supremacist bigot, and that's the way you end up...
I'm happy Bible class is over, Good-Bye...Have a good life preaching to those who need it...
I'm happy Bible class is over, Good-Bye...Have a good life preaching to those who need it...
written by Machmoed , August 31, 2011
Jesus was a man yes ,but He was also God. God is a trinity of three persons in one nature.
That's the doctrine! But is it true?
Muhammad is the seal of the prophets/messengers and Qur'an is the litterally word of Allah.
That's the doctrine! But is it true?
Both cases are not believed by the majority of the world.
Who is right and who is wrong?
That's the doctrine! But is it true?
Muhammad is the seal of the prophets/messengers and Qur'an is the litterally word of Allah.
That's the doctrine! But is it true?
Both cases are not believed by the majority of the world.
Who is right and who is wrong?
written by Yibel , September 01, 2011
There were two trees in the Garden of Eden: the Tree of Life (Wisdom) and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve chose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because they both believed a lie when it was told to them. They did not choose Life; they chose, instead, to learn about Evil. Do we really want Evil to exist in the world now that we have had thousands of years to observe the fruits of this choice? Muslims (and many others as well) chose to believe a lie. But a loving G-d wants us to chose Life. He has given us all free will, so the choice is ours to make. We can all see the damage that Islam is inflicting (and has inflicted for nearly 1400 years) on the world. Now is not the time for those who see the danger of Islam to bicker among themselves over "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" Rather now is the time for ALL good men/women to unite in defense of freedom, ethical behavior, and the dignity of mankind, in the face of the greatest evil of all time.
written by Machmoed , September 01, 2011
Why did God created evil in the first place. Where did it come from?
No one can answer this question. Who created evil and why? Ofcourse the answer must be God then. He is the creator right? But why? for testing Adam and Eve?
Satan can not create himself. He is created by God. Therefor God is not only good but also evil. He is all!
We must get rid of this concept of God aka religions first.
No one can answer this question. Who created evil and why? Ofcourse the answer must be God then. He is the creator right? But why? for testing Adam and Eve?
Satan can not create himself. He is created by God. Therefor God is not only good but also evil. He is all!
We must get rid of this concept of God aka religions first.
written by Dwito , September 01, 2011
Malman discovered that diseases are not creations of god. So they are not evil.
A doctor's delight indeed!!
However, I'm not asking whether man became superior to god by creating something from outside gods list of creations.
A doctor's delight indeed!!
However, I'm not asking whether man became superior to god by creating something from outside gods list of creations.
written by duh_swami , September 02, 2011
Adam and Eve were not real people living real events...The whole story, and other Bible stories as well, are allegory...There was no eye witness to record the Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden story, so where did it originally come from? Are we to believe this story was passed on from Adam to his sons, and his sons, and his sons?
A chain of transmitters as In Islam's hadith,
are not mentioned...At some point lost to history, this story was first written down...We know the writer was not an eye witness, and since we don't know where he got the story, we have no way of knowing its accuracy...I have previously explained part of the symbolism of the story, and all the parts fit, unless you firmly believe these people actually existed...Then, the natural turns into the supernatural...and reality is lost...
A chain of transmitters as In Islam's hadith,
are not mentioned...At some point lost to history, this story was first written down...We know the writer was not an eye witness, and since we don't know where he got the story, we have no way of knowing its accuracy...I have previously explained part of the symbolism of the story, and all the parts fit, unless you firmly believe these people actually existed...Then, the natural turns into the supernatural...and reality is lost...
written by Malem , September 02, 2011
Yes there was a Witness, his name is Allah. he was the one who created them.
Of course it was passed down, do you not know where you came from (hint, it is not the back end of a horse like people tell you). Zacharias was a real person whose murder is recorded in 2Chronicles 24:20-21. Christ mentions this prophet in the same breath as Abel, the second son of Adam and Eve. Christ is going to hold the
Pharisees accountable for the blood of Abel!!! Can Christ hold them accountable for the blood of a fictional character of a parable? No, He can’t. Christ would have been absolutely foolish to accuse the Pharisees of the murder of a man who never lived.
This proves that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, believed Abel existed! Jesus Christ received offerings from Abel. He not only believed in him, He knew him. He accused the Pharisees of the blood of Abel.
They murdered His friend. Christ was passionate and angry about it. He couldn’t have been worked up in that way about a character in a fantasy. Therefore, Abel was a real person!!!
We have established that Abel existed. This fact validates the Genesis account:
GEN 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. Therefore, if Abel existed, as demonstrated by Christ’s testimony, then Adam and Eve existed!
The Garden of Eden exists it is in Iraq, quite easy to find if you can read.
The key is you dont believe, so you will always think it is a story, that is one of the reasons why prophets were sent down to help guide people. Unfortunately you cannot guide everyone especially morons like yourself.
Of course it was passed down, do you not know where you came from (hint, it is not the back end of a horse like people tell you). Zacharias was a real person whose murder is recorded in 2Chronicles 24:20-21. Christ mentions this prophet in the same breath as Abel, the second son of Adam and Eve. Christ is going to hold the
Pharisees accountable for the blood of Abel!!! Can Christ hold them accountable for the blood of a fictional character of a parable? No, He can’t. Christ would have been absolutely foolish to accuse the Pharisees of the murder of a man who never lived.
This proves that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, believed Abel existed! Jesus Christ received offerings from Abel. He not only believed in him, He knew him. He accused the Pharisees of the blood of Abel.
They murdered His friend. Christ was passionate and angry about it. He couldn’t have been worked up in that way about a character in a fantasy. Therefore, Abel was a real person!!!
We have established that Abel existed. This fact validates the Genesis account:
GEN 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. Therefore, if Abel existed, as demonstrated by Christ’s testimony, then Adam and Eve existed!
The Garden of Eden exists it is in Iraq, quite easy to find if you can read.
The key is you dont believe, so you will always think it is a story, that is one of the reasons why prophets were sent down to help guide people. Unfortunately you cannot guide everyone especially morons like yourself.
written by duh_swami , September 02, 2011
The Garden of Eden exists it is in Iraq, quite easy to find if you can read.
That's where the fools who believe in the literal story think it is...
I have looked at it a number of times on Google Earth, where you can get up close views...There is no doubt there were ancient settlements in the area, especially along the eastern side of the Tigris...This whole area is under cultivation...Other than bible stories there is no proof this is the actual garden of Eden...It is just accepted by literalists without proof...
I would suggest you download Google Earth, but I know you can't do that from the cyber cafe you post from...You probably don't have enough quarters...
That's where the fools who believe in the literal story think it is...
I have looked at it a number of times on Google Earth, where you can get up close views...There is no doubt there were ancient settlements in the area, especially along the eastern side of the Tigris...This whole area is under cultivation...Other than bible stories there is no proof this is the actual garden of Eden...It is just accepted by literalists without proof...
I would suggest you download Google Earth, but I know you can't do that from the cyber cafe you post from...You probably don't have enough quarters...
written by duh_swami , September 02, 2011
Only literalists believe Adam and Eves garden was physically in Iraq...Tradition is not proof...
written by Mozlem , September 02, 2011
MalMan attended medical college of quackery and black magic. (if he did)
written by Machmoed , September 03, 2011
We have established that Abel existed. This fact validates the Genesis account:
Fallacy on fallacy. Abel and his brother are symbolic. They have research it and it shows that there were two major groups. Those who held cows etc and those who grew grain etc. There was a kind of war between them. This event lead to the symbolic story of Kain and Abel so future generations remembered. National Geographic can be useful sometimes.
Fallacy on fallacy. Abel and his brother are symbolic. They have research it and it shows that there were two major groups. Those who held cows etc and those who grew grain etc. There was a kind of war between them. This event lead to the symbolic story of Kain and Abel so future generations remembered. National Geographic can be useful sometimes.
written by Mozlem , September 03, 2011
12. "And daughters were born unto them. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repented me that I have made them." (6:1-7.)
Gods son marries daughter of man therefore the children are his grandchildren.
More confusion...
He that is not Omniscient nor knows the future is not God but human being. Did He before He created the world know that men would turn wicked?
The feelings of grief and repentance after dong something wrong through error of judgment can be attributed only to the Christian God since He is neither well-versed in learning nor with perfect control over his passions and feelings or He would have overcome His great grief and sorrow with the aid of mental equilibrium and wisdom.
Had even birds and animals become wicked, that He wanted to destroy them all? Surely He is not an All-knowing God, else He would not have been so destitute of sense. It is clear that neither he is God nor is the Bible the Word of God. Should the god not be free from all sin, pain, grief and sorrow, etc., and is the embodiment of al existence, consciousness and bliss
Gods son marries daughter of man therefore the children are his grandchildren.
More confusion...
He that is not Omniscient nor knows the future is not God but human being. Did He before He created the world know that men would turn wicked?
The feelings of grief and repentance after dong something wrong through error of judgment can be attributed only to the Christian God since He is neither well-versed in learning nor with perfect control over his passions and feelings or He would have overcome His great grief and sorrow with the aid of mental equilibrium and wisdom.
Had even birds and animals become wicked, that He wanted to destroy them all? Surely He is not an All-knowing God, else He would not have been so destitute of sense. It is clear that neither he is God nor is the Bible the Word of God. Should the god not be free from all sin, pain, grief and sorrow, etc., and is the embodiment of al existence, consciousness and bliss
written by duh_swami , September 03, 2011
And God saw
You notice, before God saw, everything was rosy...As soon as God saw, things went downhill...The writer of this story switched subjects, as soon as he wrote 'God saw'...The writer did not see God seeing anything...he just wrote it with no verification at all...This is another symbolic story having to do with life establishing itself on Earth...Why else the emphasis on sex and reproduction?
That there were giants (Nephilim) on the Earth is interesting...Where did they come from? How long had they been here when that comment was written? And how giant is giant anyway?
You notice, before God saw, everything was rosy...As soon as God saw, things went downhill...The writer of this story switched subjects, as soon as he wrote 'God saw'...The writer did not see God seeing anything...he just wrote it with no verification at all...This is another symbolic story having to do with life establishing itself on Earth...Why else the emphasis on sex and reproduction?
That there were giants (Nephilim) on the Earth is interesting...Where did they come from? How long had they been here when that comment was written? And how giant is giant anyway?
Write comment
This content has been locked. You can no longer post any comments.
