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Rape in Islam and Its Four Witnesses

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Ridiculous thinking and laws concerning rape in Islam...


A new friend I met was expressing her concern about the mistreatment of women in the Islamic world. One issue that resonated strongly with her was that of male rapists going scot-free, while the raped women are often blamed for the rape and can even be punished under some Sharia courts.

Before getting to the Islamic roots of many of these illogical views on rape Islam has, we need to learn a bit about a rumour the Islamic prophet’s youngest child bride, Aisha, suffered from.

(This note isn't intended to be a thorough analysis, but just some quick insights. This issue can take up volumes, I am sure.)

Details on a scandal involving Aisha is well-documented in Islamic texts of the Hadith and Sira (e.g. Sahih Muslim, Book 37, Number 6673; Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 829).

The stories narrated are long, but to summarize, Aisha was accompanying a Muslim army, and she was one day erroneously left behind. A Muslim who lagged behind the army found her and she accompanied him back to the Muslim army.

Some Muslims spread accusations against her that she had had intercourse with the man. Aisha strongly denied this and was very hurt, but the rumours continued.

Eventually, Quranic revelations were revealed in which Aisha was declared innocent of the rumours being spread: 

Quran 24: 13-16:

Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah. And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy in this world and the hereafter, a grievous chastisement would certainly have touched you on account of the discourse which you entered into. When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous. And why did you not, when you heard it, say: It does not beseem us that we should talk of it; glory be to Thee! this is a great calumny?

سورة النور
لَوْلَا جَاءُوا عَلَيْهِ بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاءَ ۚ فَإِذْ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِالشُّهَدَاءِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْكَاذِبُونَ
وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ لَمَسَّكُمْ فِي مَا أَفَضْتُمْ فِيهِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ
إِذْ تَلَقَّوْنَهُ بِأَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَتَقُولُونَ بِأَفْوَاهِكُمْ مَا لَيْسَ لَكُمْ بِهِ عِلْمٌ وَتَحْسَبُونَهُ هَيِّنًا وَهُوَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ عَظِيمٌ
وَلَوْلَا إِذْ سَمِعْتُمُوهُ قُلْتُمْ مَا يَكُونُ لَنَا أَنْ نَتَكَلَّمَ بِهَٰذَا سُبْحَانَكَ هَٰذَا بُهْتَانٌ عَظِيمٌ

Quran 24:4 states that those who fail to bring four witnesses would be flogged:

And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors.

سورة النور
وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاءَ فَاجْلِدُوهُمْ ثَمَانِينَ جَلْدَةً وَلَا تَقْبَلُوا لَهُمْ شَهَادَةً أَبَدًا ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

From this, Islamic theologians stated that, in order to prove adultery or similar types of sexual misconduct, four male witnesses should be produced. The witness of a female is at most worth half that of a man’s, and limited to financial transactions (Quran 2:282).

As I understand it (and as I was raised to understand it), the rule of four witnesses was intended to protect Muslim women from being falsely labeled as having had forbidden intercourse (zina). That said, some Islamic clergy extended this rule to a bizarre situation: A woman claiming to have been raped will need to produce to the Sharia court four male witnesses to prove her case against the rapist. If she cannot produce four witnesses, her case turns into a chastity crime and is thus punished accordingly. Alternatively, she may be punished for making perceived false accusations. Also, at least one school of jurisprudence considers pregnancy sufficient evidence for sexual misconduct, so if a rape victim becomes pregnant and she cannot prove the rape, she can face lashing or death by stoning.

For example, Pakistan had been implementing the Hudood Ordinance for more than two decades, and it provided the requirements described above regarding rape victims. It was only relatively recently that a Women’s Protection Bill was passed that allows rape victims to charge their rapists under civil law. It was strongly opposed by religious Pakistani party members.

In Iran, Nazanin Mahabad Fatehi faced the death penalty for defending herself and her niece from being raped. As she defended herself with a knife, she stabbed one of the attempted rapists to his death. Without four male witnesses, she faced the death sentence. (She was released due to intense international and media attention.)

I also found a decent article on these issues on BBC: Debate rages over women and Sharia.

There’s also an impression, among a large number of Muslim followers, that if a woman is raped, it’s usually her fault; that her mere presence in the street without a veil, for example, has ‘tempted’ the poor man to rape her. A notorious example of this mentality among Western Muslims is a 7th century misogynistic Australian barbarian called Taj El-Din Al-Hilali, who said in a Friday sermon that if a woman gets raped, it is mostly the woman’s fault because she wasn’t in her home. He also said:

“If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.”

Bigots come and go, but what’s disturbing in his case is that he is a leading Muslim figure in Australia, and that the Friday after his remarks were publicized, 5000 Muslims in Australia actually cheered in support of his remarks. Other Muslim leaders supported him, too (example).

I will need to make it clear and obvious that raping Muslim women is absolutely forbidden in Islam. However, there are some Muslims who go on raping rampages on non-Muslim women in Western countries, and they find justification for it, partly because “it’s the woman’s fault for going out without the veil”, and partly because of verses like Quran 4:24 and Quran 23:6, which permit a Muslim male to take non-Muslim women after a battle and keep them as war booty and as slaves (see my detailed note on this here). Those rapists tend not to look at the West favorably and consider themselves at war with it already, so they find their women legitimate for them. I have not heard of any scholar explicitly allow this though. There’s a very disturbing account of immigrant rape trends here.

To the readers who feel surprised: Never take one’s word for anything. Do your own research and ask other people for their points of view. I’m not perfect; it’s stupid people who think they’re always right.


The author currently resides in Ontario, Canada. He is a former member of a Canadian university branch of the Muslim Student Association, a Muslim Brotherhood-affiliated organization.

Reproduction of this article, in full or in part, is permitted and in fact encouraged, provided a link to the source article is provided.

Comments (81)Add Comment
0
No Rape.
written by Reed Wilson , February 28, 2010
To Infidel Fakhour: There is difference between rape and adultry. Choice of words should be meticulous.
0
Reed
written by duh_swami , February 28, 2010
There is difference between rape and adultry....

There certainly is...I'm glad you noticed...But in Islam, there is little difference in the punishment...Women are stoned for adultery...a woman, in Egypt I think, complained that four men raped her in a car...The woman was punished because she was in a car with men that were not her relatives...While she had four witnesses, they were all the rapists...who were not punished...It was the woman's fault she got raped...In western countries, there are some who claim that rape is often the woman's fault because of the way she dresses, walks or talks, or where she hangs out...These weird people are in the minority and 'real people' reject that nonsense...but in Islam, the weirdo's support this with gusto...It is clear that Islam is hard on adultery but soft on rape...
0
...
written by duh_swami , February 28, 2010
Test...why won't the site let me reply to Dr U...I tried six times on various threads...there is nothing in the contents that should disturb the filter...
0
Dr U...
written by duh_swami , February 28, 2010
Maybe the filter is schizophrenic about the name Mohammad...Sorry Dr U...I asked a question or two, but Allah won't let me post them...Lucky for you...
0
Rape Punishment.
written by Reed Wilson. , February 28, 2010
duh-swami. To my knowledge there is no mention of rape in Quran.They (muslim countries) alike it with robbery etc and do their own legislation accordingly.
0
goats=woman
written by Kohi , February 28, 2010
Just a girl she don't mean anything to the BIG BAD goat lovers of islam right?
0
...
written by duh_swami , February 28, 2010
written by Reed Wilson. , February 28, 2010
duh-swami. To my knowledge there is no mention of rape in Quran.

Maybe not, I don't think I said there was, but that does not stop Muslims from raping does it...Is there anything in the Quran, to your knowledge, that says NOT to rape? Please cite the appropriate aya...

You might also read my post about rape in Mecca...

Another example...Muslim guards in Iranian prisons routinely rape women and men before execution so they cannot get into Allah's paradise...If you disapprove of this, please contact them...


0
Reed
written by duh_swami , February 28, 2010
I'm still waiting for you to verify that Hitler was a 'hardcore' Christian...You can verify that...can't you?? Or are you going to 'man up' and admit your 'error'...

I know it's hard for a unconventional Muslim to 'man-up', but if you gulp a lot, grit your teeth, and strain really hard, you can probably do it...
0
rape punishment
written by dassuu , February 28, 2010
Well is there is a punishment the victim has to face in this cruel Islamic country. They are very pleased with their Sharia law, where the males can dominant against the female. I have few muslim friend where his sister-in-law was raped by her father-in-law which was silent and the chapter was closed within in themselves. she cannot raise her voice these people will kill her with lies to keep islam name with some wrong testimony. Where can she bring four men to testify, even though if she try to get four they will rape her again she has to go for 4x4. There is no other scripture like Quran which is full of rape, sex ,revenge and hatred let the musim keep their Sharia law with them and don’t try to explain to the world. simple is your prophet life is holy you will be holy, if your prophet is honest you will be honest, if your prophet is a rapist you will enjoy to rape without pity on the victim. If your heaven is holy you will try to be holy. If your prophet mass murdered you enjoy killing people like chicken.
0
There is no rape in Islam
written by skipper , March 01, 2010
The Qur'an doesn't talk about rape. Why is this so? Here's my take. In Islam, man has the right to have sex, whereas woman is the passive recipient and has no sexual rights whatsoever. She has no part to play in the act. She can't request for it nor can she deny the man what is rightfully his. This works well in Islamic societies, since the woman has gone through genital mutilation which ensures that she will never feel any form of sexual desire or gratification. If a man forcibly has sex with his wife, that's note rape. If he has forcible sex with someone outside of marriage, that is not considerded rape either, it's adultery. So as adulterers, both parties are to blame. When a woman reports rape, she is basically admitting to adultery, thus the punishment.
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"note" rape
written by skipper , March 01, 2010
Corrigendum to previous post: it's "not rape". I wasn't trying to introduce a new idea of raping notes. smilies/shocked.gif
0
rape?
written by Machmoed , March 01, 2010
To rape in islam doesn't exist. To have sex with captives or slaves (righthandpossesion) is lawfull to you made by Allah. These captives had nothing to say about it. When a man wants a woman captive or slave...he just throws a cape (like Mo used to do when he found a girl attractive...according to islamic story)and can do everything to her. If there were 4 god's the raped one would have witnesses, but there is only one wich is not enough. Is it that hard to see this God is no good?

To believe islam or any other religion is not based on realty and truth from the point of view of the source/God is much better than to believe that God is like this. This sure is a god of incompetence.
0
Hitler's Christianity
written by Reed Wilson. , March 01, 2010
To duh-swami. You write, 'I am still waiting for you to verify that Hitler was a 'hardcore' Christian...You can verify that...can't you?? Or are you going to 'man up' and admit your 'error'...
It is unReed-Wilson like to quote from history on such matters. I don’t put it as truth.

Any way at http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm you can find article, Hitler's Christianity.
He says "To deny the influence of Christianity on Hitler and its role in World War II, means that you must ignore history and forever bar yourself from understanding the source of German anti-Semitism and how the WWII atrocities occurred"
He quotes from Mein Kampf and from Hitler's speeches to prove Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism. Here are some titles in his article.
•The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations
•Quotes from Hitler's Henchmen and Nazi Sympathizers
•Hitler compared to God/Jesus/Christians
•Christianity in Europe during WWII
•Nazi photos
•Nazi Artifacts
•Hitler's Bible--Monumental History of Mankind
•Hitler's private notes show how the Bible influenced Hitler
•Hitler's table talk and other extraneous sources.

He says, "Those who use argue against Hitler's Christianity use the Table-Talk as their main source. However, the reliability of the source does not come into question, nor does it provide evidence against Hitler's own Christian beliefs, even if valid".


0
Authorised Rape?
written by Reed Wilson. , March 01, 2010
To Machmoed. I think what was permissible is in the book and what has happened is History or Hadith here. It is better not to believe the Hadith. I have no reasons to accept it. Koran allows marrying in such cases as they were destitute.
I cannot conceptualize the wars of those days. Do we find women in the battlefields?
May be you have broader view of such events.
0
2 Reed
written by Machmoed , March 01, 2010
Do we find women in the battlefields?

According to hadieth there is! Hadieth were written in times that understood the time of assumed prophet better. So if it's written in those books, i must think (logic) it was a (wide spread) custom in those days. Qor'aan tells us that it is ok to have slaves and to have sex with them. Only this point is enough to reject the whole islam as a religion chosen by Allah for the humanity. I do not agree this is the almighty and i never will. If then i go to hell...so be it. To my understanding islam should be local as given to arabs. I'm no arab, so islam was never meant for me. The qoran itself sais...this is a clear book (kitabun mubien) and revealed in (easy understandable) arabic so that you can understand. According to arabs themself...qor'aan should be read in arabic for understanding trully. But to my amazement..even arabs do not understand all of it while it is easy, the qoran sais. I'm waiting for Allah sending a holy scripture/messege in my own language to understand. He did (spiritual) and the messege is...islam is not from me he said. He said I created you and you're the only evidence that God created you..as for scriptures...humans created those. Follow what i had given you biologically and spiritually, not materialistic things like scriptures. Matter (materialistic things like scriptures etc.) should not matter to you He said. For those who abuse my name for personal gain and power....reason with them only in good ways and if they are rejecting the messege...leave them.
0
No rape in Quran
written by Abu Taleb , March 01, 2010
There is no rape in Quran because Quran treats women as an object belongs to men. A wife simply can not refuse her husband, if she does, then her husband can beat her and rape her, but it is not a rape and it is the woman's fault. So does a female slave.

So if a man rapes a non halal woman, then they both are commiting adultery, it is not a rape crime event according to Quran.

Hadith actually says that in case of there is no 4 witnesses, then somebody can make a statement 4 times, then it s considered the same as 4 witnesses. However, because the witness of a woman is only half of a witness of a man (due to a lack of intellegence of the woman according to that sex maniac prophet) then if both the rapist and the raped victim insist their claim, it is certainly the rapist will go free and the raped victim will be punished for slander.

What a stupid barbaric religion.

0
sheep and camels allowed to testify in court?
written by Machmoed , March 01, 2010
Hadith actually says that in case of there is no 4 witnesses, then somebody can make a statement 4 times, then it s considered the same as 4 witnesses.

Maybe there is also a hadieth that's already been discarded by Ulama's (scholars of islam) that sais: in case of there are no 4 witnesses, then the sheep or camels (10 sheep or 5 camels) could testify in court. Dogs are not allowed and if it's a black dog...kill it...for it might be jinn or addajjal (anti-christ).

What an invention of the arabs and how true. Shame on muslims for ignoring the BS in islam!
0
Reed...Proves nothing...
written by duh_swami , March 01, 2010
but at least you did look something up...

All that stuff (on that website, which does not care about any truth, it's purpose is to bash Christianity, which is why it is not a good source of truth) does not make Hitler a 'hardcore Christian'...
Hitler was a propagandist who would say and do 'anything' to further his causes...
Adolph was one big lie...He also was in conspiracy with the Grand Mufti of Palestine, and there are photos and evidence that Muslims and Hitler entered into a conspiracy to effect, 'The final solution to the Jewish problem'...A real Christian would shun such a conspiracy...In fact it was 'Christians' who put a stop to Hitler...See Atlas shrugs...Pamela Geller exposed the entire Muslim/Nazi conspiracy...Hitler was a CINO...Christian In Name Only...And that's a stretch...My dog is a better Christian than Hitler was...
I had it right the first time...Hitler was not a human, he was a demon posing as a human...That's got nothing to do with Christianity except for propaganda purposes...You are drinking from the kool aid cup...
The only reason to hook Hitler up with Christianity is to bash Christianity...That tactic only works for the ignorant...Intelligent people know better...
0
Stoning For adultry.
written by Reed Wilson , March 01, 2010
duh-swami. There is no stoning punishment in Quran.
Muslims follow Bible also. May be those who are stoning for adultry are doing so according to Bible.
0
To sick puppy Reed...
written by duh_swami , March 01, 2010
May be those who are stoning for adultry are doing so according to Bible.

That's sick Reed...Who cares if it's in the Bible, Quran or whatever, Muslims stone people to death anyway...It's sharia policy in Islamic paradises like Iran...Maybe you should contact Iran's supreme leader and tell that crap to him...
0
To psychotic Reed...
written by duh_swami , March 01, 2010
As far as I am concerned Reed, you have zero credibility...I think our conversations are over...It's not possible to convince someone with fixed delusions about much of anything...From now on, you are on my 'ignore button'...
0
To Reed
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 01, 2010
The stoning verse was there before othman removed it from his versions of the Quran,there was a chapter that use to contain 200 verses but he reduce it to 73 many other verses like that those who knew them died at the battle of yamama that was why Zaid was commissioned to begin to compile the Quran from the fading memories of the dying men, from bone, leaves etc. You can see how unreable the book you so respect above the hadiths is so unrealiable? Sorry my friend if you discard the Hadiths I think you should discard the Quran first.
0
re; reed wilson
written by ecosse , March 01, 2010
you bring up the old chestnut about hitler being a Christian; the only evidence that htler was such was the fact he was born a Roman Catholic; there is no evidence of him practising any religion; though he was in bed with many unsavourable muzzies. why dont you continue reading that old war manual of yours which makes no sense whatsoever and leave history to others.
0
Stoning Punishment.
written by Reed Wilson , March 01, 2010
To Clement.
Please quote where is stoning in Quran. Stoning iin Bible is prescribed for 13 counts. I quote:
1 For torouching Mount Sinai Exodus 19:13
2.For taking "accursed things" Joshua 7:1-26
3.For cursing or blaspheming Leviticus 24:16
4.For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough) Deuteronomy 22:23-24
5.For animals (like an ox that gores a human) Exodus 21:28
6.For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night Deuteronomy 22:13-21
7.For worshipping other gods Deuteronomy 17:2-5
8.For preaching the wrong religion Deuteronomy 13:5-10
9.For disobeying parents Deuteronomy 21:18-21
10.For witches and wizards Leviticus 20:27
11.For giving your children to Molech Leviticus 20:2
12.For breaking the Sabbath Numbers 15:32-56
13.For cursing the king 1 Kings 21:10

I have no objection on inclusion of stoning punishment in the Bible,
0
No blame n Christianity.
written by Reed Wilson , March 01, 2010
to duh_swami Yes it does not prove anything. Hitler was man. May be Muslim or Christian.His wrong actions should be used for maligning christianity. Christianity does praech love and tolerence.
0
Reed...
written by duh_swami , March 01, 2010
Don't direct any more posts to me...This is the last one of yours I will respond to...I don't care to converse with schizophrenics...It's pointless...Bye-bye...
0
To Reed Wilson
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 01, 2010
Is it only the Stoning that is missing in the Quran? The main ten commandment of Yahweh are also missing in the Quran, Mohammed made no nonsense of Gods law and replaced them with meaningless pagan religious rituals. He could not distinguished the unchangeable moral Law from the ceremonial Law which are abolished in the New covenant of Grace.The stoning which is abolished in the New Covenant of Grace becomes the sunah of the prophet of Islam. The fact that it was not there is irrelevant as far as the sunnah of the prophet established it in the hadith becomes a law. You should know by now that Mohammed was the law himself. He was the allah, He was the Gabriel, he was the messengers and he used any of those names at his convinience , you there not question his sunnah.Asked your Mullahs and Iman why they are practising stoning when there is no stonning the Quran?
0
correction
written by Reed Wilson , March 01, 2010
duh-swami. Read 'shouldNOT be used' in above post.
0
reply to your comment
written by Muslimah , March 01, 2010
asalamualaikum .. first of all i will start by saying may allah forgive you for what you are saying and may he guide you into islam and make you see sense inshallah. so this discussion of which you have put forward about rape definately had been misinterprated. islam is one of the most peacefullest religions alhamdulillah and this is somethign that you would be able to see yourself if you read the quran and understand the true meaning. now you may say to me that you have read it and this is where youve got your evidence and you dont feel that their is no truth within the Holy Quran. howver if you read the Quran with intentions to seek guidance then you will know within that this is the truth. now whether you beleive this or not, it is down to you , but as muslims we are here to spread the truth to the world and help guide you and put you on a straight path. For those who had created this site after the 9/11 attacks in america and now denying the true religion islam, is shame upon yourself. when you look under your skin, what do your see? .. the same thing as everyone else. and who created this, who created mankind? .. Allah the almighty. so as you now deny our religion.. why? dont you ever ask yourself if you know the truth? . dont you ever realise that these big leaders such as bush etc dont really care what you people think? theyll tell you lies to make you believe anything. dont you ever wonder and ask yourselves why were they so quick to blame the muslims? . wow wont that just so quick to be put straight on teh news. they magically found these passports which were of so called muslims men. with no scratches on them? LOL seriously thats just ridiculous. what a plot?! so we go on right, on that day there were mnore than 10000 jewish workers away..smilies/shocked.gif wouldnt that go for some evidence to show that maybee just maybee they could have something to do with it. even still the discussion on rape in islam. now muslim women are not deprived. they have many rights in islam which you definately dont see. Islamically women should be covered in ways that their body figures are not exposed to any other man exept their husband. why do they do this? . well to protect themselves from sin, knowing that men will be watchin there body and may have bad intentions towards them(astafurallah) this is common sense. so you answer this to me yeah. if you see a women whos wearing a short skirt, and has her body parts exposed to the world, and then you see a women who is wearing a hijab, covered up and has her gaze down yeah, which one are you more likely to look at? . the half naked one why? because she is asking for attention and she wants people to do things with her. secondly if a muslim women is to go out, she should never leave unless she is with a mehram such as her brothers, father husband or uncle. this is for her own safety, so noone will look upon her and know that she os protected. so if a thing such as rape was to take place, there would be witnesses. now rape within marriage first of all, if yoru husband does want such desire, then it is the wifes duty to do so, to keep them happy. otherwise this may lead to him going astray and wanting to remarry as he may feel that she is not providing him with his needs. if the women is not happy with this then they should seek advice from the shariah law onto what they feel is the best thing to do islamically because at teh end of the day, you cannot change a person. the way that i am telling you that isam is the truth and you will not beleive me is the same way if you tell a man not to mistreat hiis wife he may not listen and still think that his ways of thinking is right when it is logically WRONG. so all ill like to say befor ei leave this discussion is, your views are your views and i respect that, but one thing that is not appreciated by the whole ummah is the disrespect and lies which you have put forward on this site. may allah forgive you and seek you guidance and bring you back on the right path of islam. inshallah this will happen or you may lead to teh hell fire. no matter what religion you have converted to. their is none which state that you have the right to disrespect any other religion. so ill leave and tell you that Allah will give you your present of goodwill when you die and return you to your real home.. hell fire.
0
religion of peace BS...
written by duh_swami , March 01, 2010
written by Muslimah...asalamualaikum .. first of all i will start by saying may allah forgive you for what you are saying and may he guide you into islam and make you see sense inshallah....

No thanks...I don't want and do not need Allah's forgiveness, and there is zero way I would be guided to Islam...You do know That Allah and Islam should be capitalized...Not to capitalize them is an insult to your Allah and Islam...
................................................................................................................
written by Muslimah...so ill leave and tell you that Allah will give you your present of goodwill when you die and return you to your real home.. hell fire.

It took you your whole post to get to the real point of Islam...Hell fire...

Your threatening kufr posters with hell fire is NOT peaceful...but it is typical of Islamic delusional material...
Kind of shoots down that religion of peace idea eh...
0
To muslimah
written by Abu Taleb , March 01, 2010
Quran says that your husband can beat you if he suspects you loyalty, it is not needed that you have been proved your disloyalty. Do you follow that "guidance" and submittingly receive the beating even if you are actually loyal to him?

Quran says your husband can have 4 wives and also have sex with his slaves. Do you accept that guidance?

Islam says that your husband can divorce you by simply says "talaq" three times. Do you accept that guidance?

If you accept those guidance, I will say may you rest in peace.
0
We are as sure as you are and we have searched long and hard
written by Demsci , March 01, 2010
Muslimah, all these things Abu Taleb wrote are rules of Islam. And we know too that Mohammed said the reason why the testimony of 1 man equaled that of 2 women was that women are deficient in intelligence. He said that he had looked in hell and saw the majority of people there were women, because they were such ungrateful creatures. But, oh, he was the messenger of God, and that makes it allright for you?

And people, with many other women among them, who are against Islam because it makes women so unfree and underestimated, who believe it was manmade, not divine, now know all there is to know about Islam, the scriptures, the rules, the behavior of the men, everywhere in Islam. so much more than the average Muslimah.

We who read your post can see you know little about your own religion, can see that you listen and read so little outside that which other Muslims, at home and in the mosque, tell you (+ tell you to reed).

Can you even think independently, or is Mohammed right that women are deficient in intelligence, therefore dependent on men? Why, we are surprised the men around you let you even type your "thinking" in the computer!

Remember, choosing and keeping your religion is about your personal choice. And other humans, ex-Muslima's, here tell YOU, that after your death you will almost certainly find out that Islam was not divine. And they tell you, that you can be a part of your or another community, people, without having to have the same faith. Faiths must be chosen on grounds of truth, reason, not on grounds of kinship. Other people should not try to persuade you with threats of shunning or violence if you choose, based on what is most probable true.

After your death, you'll see the truth. You know, we here are just as sure as you are about our conviction that Islam is not Divine, and we have searched and thought long and hard about it, and with many, intelligent men AND WOMEN.

We respect you, and all Muslims, but why should we respect a false message?
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four witnesses
written by Rationalist , March 01, 2010
To prove rape, if four witnesses are needed then those people have to be PEEPING TOMS. Further, how one is supposed to keep quiet when a rape is being committed? Can any enlightened Muslim scholar respond to this?
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To rationalist
written by skipper , March 02, 2010
As said before, there is no concept of rape in Islam. So when rape is mentioned you should read "adultery". and yes, there can be 4 witnesses to an adulterous relationship, like when 4 religious policemen walk in on a couple doing the deed in some sleazy hotel room, as happens in Malaysia all too often.
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2 Muslimah
written by Machmoed , March 02, 2010
Would you please tell us what this truth is. Every muslim talks about the truth. What is this truth only muslims know about? I really want to know. Till this day no mullah/ imam or whatever was capable of showing me this truth. The most mullahs/imams give me answers like: my knowledge does not reach that far. But I guess it reaches far enough to believe islam is the truth. You started with the hope of allah forgive us and you end with our home hellfire. Are you Allah? Don’t you know you sinned just by posting that post. I don’t know Muslima, but this actions are typical for muslims. As long as muslims like you discuss/debate this way, the it’s because you have no arguments except that islam is the truth and mohammad was a great human being (the best man ever lived). Were you there in that time to know it’s the truth. There are muslim scholars and scientists who tried to trace islam till the time of Mohammad, but never got there. Because it wasn’t there in that time. All we know about islam is in Qor’aan and the ahadieth. Did you read these? Yes. Could you tell us what great things he has done except terrorizing everyone who didn’t believe him or like in case of one of his writers after he found out that mohammad is changing the verse as is was sent. The writer knew he was a frad and left. Then Mohammad geve the order to kill him and he was killed. Is this the guidance you were talking about? Is it guidance when a woman (pregnant) is killed by her husband and then the husband didn’t get punished because he told Mohammad because his wife was rediculating the messenger of God…..What a devine guidance. This must indeed be Allah who’s guiding. He is still guiding the Islamic nations right?
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Islam makes Muslims animals.
written by Healer_999 , March 02, 2010
Proof is here: Taken from above article and is said by a Muslim it self.

“If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.”

So I guess behavior of Muslim men like cats is acceptable in Islam. Rather making a Muslim better man, it is bringing him down to level of animals.

Only a Muslim will offer such vivid comparisons between Humans and animals. Great progress, I guess.
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...
written by unknown , March 02, 2010
lookyuu people are just out of order ur all speekin out ur ass..
i aint a muslim bt i respect their religion the way that they live is hw they choose why is it bothering yu go gta life.. find sumfink betta 2 do. if uu people think u knw the bst way 2 live why dnt u go n betta urslf. serously duudes sort yurselves out...
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To Muslimah. I HOPE YOU WILL LAST IN THIS SITE POSTING YOUR COMMENTS
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 02, 2010
Sometimes I wonder why women of all people the most oppressed in Islam still come here to defend the guy who put them in the mess they find themselve in.
There are two things the prophet of Islam never thought they will be come short in supply in the world. These are slaves and women. The reasons for that prediction was because he instituted a perpetual state of war with infidel for his followers Q 2:216 and what that implies is that war booties will never ceased and the victims of every war situation are the children and women. How was he going to permanently solve the problem of surplus women? That was why he has to alter the marriage formulary of Yahweh of 1+1=1 to mean 1+4+ X=1 where x is equal to unlimited number of slaves women, girls and house maids 4 is the maximum legal wives a man can have.
This is basis of why the institution of marriage is bastardised in Islam. Marriage is dehumanised in Islam to the level of the lower animals who actually do not marry in a real sense of it but do copulate and procreate. It was meant to stand on two legs a man and a woman but Mohammed said it could stand on five legs a man and four females (a kind of animal kingdom), it was meant for life until death do us part but Mohammed said you can keep changing wives as many times as you want but you can bang any unmarried maids or slaves without limit
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2 unknown
written by Machmoed , March 02, 2010
2 unknown,
First the religion we talk about must have respect for others also (non-muslims). Maybe you don't but even you who's not an muslim are not save or have no freedom when living under a sharia law. Furthermore...to my humble opinion we just talk/discuss/debate the story of arabs. We discuss the ideology not about muslims themselfes. We want to know the truth as muslims know it so we can understand them better. That's all. Ofcourse they can live the way they want...but why can't they do it in muslim countries. Muslims cannot demand anything in their homecountries. We want to help them so they can create this freedom in their islamic countries. When it is done, there would be no neccesity to go to an other country...Capiche!
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Good Suggestion
written by Reed Wilson , March 02, 2010
To Machmoed. Your passage is beutiful reading as 'Furthermore...to my humble opinion we just talk/discuss/debate the story of arabs. We discuss the ideology not about muslims themselfes. We want to know the truth as muslims know it so we can understand them better. That's all. Ofcourse they can live the way they want...but why can't they do it in muslim countries. Muslims cannot demand anything in their homecountries. We want to help them so they can create this freedom in their islamic countries. When it is done, there would be no neccesity to go to an other country...Capiche!'

I have to reconstruct my opinion about you.

To my knowledge, Hindu or Vedic religion is such which accommodates all religions. But there is no exception of SHI in any religigon
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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , March 02, 2010
But there is no exception of SHI in any religion.

Yes and no.......islam is the only religion with a devine scripture (qor'aan) wich tells that it is protected by God himself. I don't believe God ever said that...simply because it didn't happen. Then he tells us that if there is one fallacy you should dicard the whole book as devine.....in that time it was the truth as arabs believed it. The arabs wrote what they knew in that time and some of the verses were outdated so they discarded them (verse of stoning etc.)....and not because of Allah. A great deal of facts mentioned in Qor'aan are scientiffacly not true.....in that time they thought they were.
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Volume of Hadith?
written by Reed Wilson , March 02, 2010
No Machmoed. No excception. Koran may be intact but nobody touches it. Hadith is the surrogate of Koran which is the SHI.
It is very strong. Evident from these pages. When I ask them what is the voume of Hadith. I swer nobody can tell however Jayyad scholar he may be. They can not even list the books leaving alone the number of citations or narrations. Why they are following a fluid thing which has no shape and size? Kawawa naman. SHI isnt it or it is?
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Reply to Reed Wilson
written by Mule , March 02, 2010
4.For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough) Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Deuteronomy 22:23 - 27
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her: Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbours's wife; so shalt thou put away evil from among you. But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

The average city of biblical times was much smaller and constructed and inhabited in a different way than the cities we know today. I think it would be well nigh impossible in such a city for a screaming woman to go unheard. There is no comparison with cities as we know them today where it is relatively easy to find a place where the screams of a rape victim would not be heard from the outside. By placing the crime scene of the open field in contrast to the city the holy scripture is directing that it must first be established by the judges whether or not there was anyone in the vicinity who could have heard the scream of the victim and come to her assistance. Only after this is established can the girl be convicted, thus preventing a miscarriage of justice. It is interesting that holy scripture equates the crime of rape with murder in this passage whereas if both the victim and the perpetrator are unmarried it is only a crime of unlawful sex according to the Koran as I understand. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this.

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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , March 03, 2010
No Machmoed. No excception.

Thanx Reed, that's what i'm telling you.......it's all human.

you wrote: Koran may be intact but nobody touches it........
If it is than it's deffinately human achievement....so many fallacies in there!
If humans altered it than it lost it's credebility as devine. Actually it already lost it's devinity when they started to explain by hadieth. Allah told us to protect it....it changed through time...so it wasn't god who told this....therefor it's human....very logical. If you say yes it is the word of God then there is a possibility then you tell lies about him.....he gave you brains, heart, consciousness etc. Use it!

God/Allah revealed the qor'aan in a language that no one really understands...even after 100 years they didn't understand, but according to Allah it is for eternity. Why he didn't choose a universal language (music for example or maths (he is not good at it)...no he chose a dialect of the Qureish, but the reality is that Qor'aan is written in a language that was spoken in the east of Hidjaaz and not the west (mecca). The whole story of Mecca etc. is not true. I'm sure you already knew this.

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Machmoed, good reasoning
written by Demsci , March 03, 2010
Machmoed, perfectly clear and good reasoning!

Maybe we do not reach Muslims yet with our message, but we are developing and getting ever clearer on our conviction concerning Islam; it is of HUMAN Origine (HOI), not of Divine Origine (DOI). We have so many arguments, like your excellent ones.

Of course we have higher positive purposes than just determining Islam's origine.
We want to replace it in part with something Freeer and Truer.

But we too have the right to own Islam, interpret and use it as we wish, and Muslims and Political-Correct people have to respect the HOI as much as the DOI eventually! Everybody eventually has to realise that the HOI and the DOI may both be very knowledgeable about Islamic teachings, interpretations and behavior.

So often the Muslims, DOI, accuse the HOI of lying, distorting the facts and logic out of hate, anti-Islam-agenda. And political-correct people buy that way too often and easily. But it could just as well be the Muslims who lie and distort the facts and logic, when viewed by independent people, which is what all these political-correct people want to be. Many Muslims may well have the prejudice that their beloved religion MUST be true and victorious, no matter what.

So maybe it is time to promote the rights and the respect for the HOI-believers and their sensitivities, on a par with the rights and respect for the DOI-believers. Maybe it is time to recognize the right of the HOI's to inspect the ambitions and actions of the DOI's without being accused of racism, tarring all Muslims with the same brush, etc. Because HOI's should not be forced to blindly trust the DOI's and thereby to place themselves at risk. No, no blind trust without inspection, we say.
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To:Reed, Dr,U and Ayesha
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 03, 2010
Remember you guys are owing me a response each about Allah's attributes, the place of the ten commandment in Islam and the Quran contradicts. Ayesha and Dr U are silenced now or has my prophesy been fulfilled already? or have they Apostatised? That will be good news to us. I will be glad to see your response on those subjects. Regards
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To Clement,
written by Healer_999 , March 03, 2010
Don't worry, they will never. They are all myopic.

I have a doubt, they say Koran was a word from God, but Bible and Torah? I never read when ever you write about bible and Torah. I only know that bible is of two parts, old testament and new testament.

I read that bible and Torah were collections over long period of time, albeit with divine inspiration.

What is the exact position?
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free?
written by Machmoed , March 03, 2010
Quran 24:4 states that those who fail to bring four witnesses would be flogged:

And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors.

note the part 'accuse free women'. If they are free..then they also free to do what they want....i guess the definition of free by allah is like the freedom islam is talking about.
Furthermore: this verse gives power to men to do whatever they want with a girl/woman, because he knows that she has to have 4 witnesses. This deity is so ignorant...it must be an arab, no doubt!
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To Healer_999 It is a good virtue to doubt anything untill proved otherwise
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 03, 2010
You said "I have a doubt; they say Koran was a word from God, but Bible and Torah?" That’s good my friends, my Bible tells me to prove all things that even if an Angel from heaven just came down and tells you something contrary to his revealed word, or different from your God given human instincts put it in the dust bin. That Angel must prove that he was from Yahweh. Unfortunate Mohammed and his Quran have no single proof that the inspiration was from Yahweh the Judeo-Christian God because its message is the direct opposite of the Bible. A casual reader of the two will have no difficulty establishing this fact.
I know why you also doubt the Bible it is because you found out that the Quran which based its credibility on Bible stories which it plagiarised is found to be fake, evil and delusional, naturally one will deduce that since the source document of the Quran was the Bible it follows therefore that the Bible is also fake. This conclusion though logical is not true. The Quran did not only plagiarised the Bible it also include un-canonised or none scriptural Jewish and Christians fables, fictions and folklores, including pagan practises as the basis of its scriptures. My friend, give the Bible a chance to prove itself before you condemn it as the Quran by reading it with doubt but with desire to know the truth. What distinguishes the Bible from any other so call scriptures is that the Bible is History written in advance and is only the deity that is omniscience that do that. Another thing is the power demonstration through out Bible history of not less than five thousand years and still performing miracles and wonders, it is only the deity that has all power at his disposal that can do that. You need to know this God in a personal way to be able to appreciate him. He reveals himself to individual’s seekers and nations and if you are sincere and want to know him he will reveal himself to you. You can start by reading The Gospel according to Saint John and you read also the Geneses and Exodus. Cheers
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...
written by Reed Wilson , March 03, 2010
Machmowed. Free woman is stupid translation of the word used in the verse.
It is like fresh water to differentiate with sea water.
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Clement, please.
written by Healer_999 , March 03, 2010
My question is this:

Are Bible and Torah also words of God, like Koran? Uniqueness of Koran is Muslims claim it is a direct word from God, through angel Gabriel.

How was Bible was collected? And Torah? You can be brief. I do have respect for Jesus, but I can not practice Jesus.

Please clear my doubt, I am not asking for debate.

Trust me, my patience with religious books is over, after I tried to read this ugly Koran, completed many Suras from Medina period with great difficulty. Not for following, but to know ugly and cruel it is.

I know very much that those violent verses from Old Testament are mere words, not actual calls for war and violence.
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Muslimah is confused
written by Kohi , March 03, 2010
islam is one of the most peacefullest religions"
Muslimah do you REALLY BELIEVE THIS?
99% of bombers are muslims they are the ones who say convert or we kill you what other group says this?
name just ONE please!
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To Healer_999 -The Bible was not collected through oral tradition like the Quran
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 04, 2010
My friend the best way to know a divine writ is not by what its believers says it is by its content and what influence it has on society. Is it positive or negative influence? Of course you know that there is nothing unique about the Quran, Allah and Angel Gabriel were both creation of Mohammed's imagination as he struggled to impose himself on his ignorant Arab folk as their prophet, Priest and King.
The Bible is a collection of the inspired words of Yahweh (the Judeo-Christian God) over a period 2000 years to his covenant people the Jews first and to the whole world. It consists of 39 books in the OT and 27 books in the NT. They were not compiled through oral tradition like the Quran but Holy men of God were moved by the Holy Spirit to write them down. Thus it is difficult to corrupt. It is a reader-friendly book written in a narrative prose and easy to understand. It is chronological with intelligent transition and with context of every message and unlike the Quran that has no context or chronology.
The uniqueness of the Bible lies in the potency of his message and the positive influence it has on people. In it you find, wise sayings, proverbs, parables, drama, history, predictive prophesy and prophesy fulfillment, miracles and wonders, judgment, promises, foolishness of men and wisdom of God all documented for our learning so that we can learn from them in our way to heaven.
How do we know that the Bible is the word of Almighty God? We know this because in it we saw the about 2000 years plan of Salvation with more than 300 prophesies being fulfilled in the New Testament and many other prophesies being fulfilled in our very eyes. That is to say that the Bible is history written in advance by an omniscience God for his creature so that they will not be ignorant of what is yet to come. Please my friend try and read the Bible is not as boring as the Quran. Though voluminous but you can take a book at a time is sweet and easy to assimilate because is the product of infinite and wise God. It is kind of love letter to his beloved creation. If you want more information you can contact me on This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it '> This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it Regards
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free?
written by Machmoed , March 04, 2010
Machmowed. Free woman is stupid translation of the word used in the verse.
It is like fresh water to differentiate with sea water.

What is the best translation? unmarried? not bounded?
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Muhsinat.
written by Reed Wilson , March 04, 2010
Machmoed. I think it is opposite of slave. A respected woman could be better translation. Dont believe me. Please consult a dictionary when you doubt. Tanslations may give the message but not exact rendering. There is lot of shi in translations too. Best thing is to learn the language, if possible.
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language?
written by Machmoed , March 04, 2010
Reed,
If you give me the word i might translate it for you...do you know the arabic word?
The translations are made by scholars who understand the language better than we do. We do not have the language of the Qor'aan today..so we can't compare it and look for it in dictionary as it was meant in that time. Furthermore: the first Qor'aans were written in a defectif script...for example the word almulk could be mean almalak (angels), almalik (king) or almulk like in Qor'aan. In qor'aan it is written in arabic like this MLK.
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almuhsanaat
written by Machmoed , March 04, 2010
The word in arabic is الْمُحْصَنَاتِ
It means like chast. Women who are not touched yet in a sexual manner (like virgins). It also can mean those who are not bound by marriage and the ones who do not belong to somebody's righthand (righthand possessions).....that's why the translation is free...it is all contextual.
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Origins of the Bible...
written by duh_swami , March 04, 2010
The Bible is a compilation of manuscripts and books that were considered at the councils of Nicaea France in 312/325 AD...If anyone want's details, the link below is a pretty good write up...

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html
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To duh_swami
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 04, 2010
The councils of Nicaea had manuscripts to shift from and not from the fading memories of dying men and women or as orally passed from one person to another. Besides the New Testament have been written in advance by the Jewish founding fathers thousands of years before it happened. Prophets like Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Micah and king like David by the spirit of God had foretold the ministry of the Messiah how he was going to be born the town by whom his death and resurrection and for what purpose where graphically and meticulously detailed in the Old Testament and only merely play out in the New Testament. The issue of Paul being an heretic for saying that Jesus was God incarnate suffered died and resurrected to offer free salvation for mankind was not his doctrine but the Old Testament Teaching. The council of Nicea were guided by certain criteria to regard a writing as scriptures. Such as the Writer was he a Jew or a gentile, an eye witness or a converts, when was the writing? Was it nearer to the event of far away etc. The Quran did not have such rational and scientific way of determining the authentic scriptures. The council of Nicaea did not sit to write scriptures but to compile what they believed with the help of the Holy Spirit as the scriptures. And we have seen that the Bible indeed is the world of God because of the power of transforming grace that comes through reading it and believing it.
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...
written by duh_swami , March 04, 2010
Clement...The council of Nicaea did not sit to write scriptures but to compile what they believed with the help of the Holy Spirit as the scriptures. And we have seen that the Bible indeed is the world of God because of the power of transforming grace that comes through reading it and believing it.

There were three kinds of people who actually wrote the scriptures...Yahwists, Eloists, and the priestly...The Yawists were the most truthful...
Did you know that the second book of Genesis was written by the Yawist two hundred years before the first? If the Bible really is the 'word' of God, men have screwed much of it up...As with Noah...'Perfect in his generations'...The translators did not understand the 's' but left it...The Catholic rendition removes the 's' changing the meaning...When you are perfect in your generations, you are perfect in what you generate...Remove the 's' and you are perfect in your generation...day and age...This is only one example...There are many others...
However this does not change the meaning of the entire scriptures, but it does fool those who don't know better...
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Q.E.D.
written by Reed Wilson , March 04, 2010
To Clement. You are posing question to three. Do you want all of them to reply? Let me as under:
•Allah's attributes are given in Quran.
•Place of Ten Commandments in Islam. First you show me the place in Bible as 'Ten Commandments'.
•Quran contradicts. I have already clarified one alleged contradiction in my post. Your claim is already nullified.
You say it would be good news and at the same time you will be glad to see my response. Amazing!
Regards.
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To. duh_swami Your judgement is Enviable
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 05, 2010
You said "However this does not change the meaning of the entire scriptures," I am glad you make such confession of truth. The theme of the Judeo-Christians message has never changed despite numerous numbers of the writers, and that lies its divinity. When it was changed by Mohammed we knew that was a false prophesies. The plan of God's salvation for man has been consistent from Genesis to Revelation. And that is Man was made in God's image and want to fellowship with him through out eternity but man's sinful nature occasioned by the deceit of the fallen Angel Satan separate that relationship, but because of the love he has for provided the means of reconciliation and fellowship again. In the Old Testament animal blood was allowed temporary to atone for sin but ultimately and final God gave the final offering Himself when Christ finally fulfilled the final redemption plan on Calvary cross.
In the Bible you see the words, of Kings, Prophets, women, men, poets; you also, see the words of God. The direct word of God are always, distinguished by the such phrase as “Thus says the Lord” “The Lord said” “The words of the Lord came to me saying” “The Spirit speaks expressly” “The Holy Ghost said” There may be copyist error or even some little omissions in the details but the central Message has never changed despite the fact that more than 40 authors living in different generations and time over 2000 years were used to write all that we called the scriptures today. The Quran on the other hand a product of one man Mohammed, creating a spirit friend Gabriel with a personal god Allah living within 23 year in one place without a witness of the so called divine message produced a scriptures that is full of internal contradictions, external contradiction, that contradict, science, history and even common sense with confusing message with assurance of salvation or certainty of the life here after. The contrast is incomparable. It only takes a diseased mind or a brained that is so brain-watched and dead to believe such delusional message such as in the Quran as against the Bible
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To Reed Wilson
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 05, 2010
You are yet to give an instance in the Quran or hadith where Allah demonstrated that he was omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresence. The Ten commandment is central to Bible teaching both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. In the OT is recorded in Exodus 20 and further explained by Christ in the NT in Sermon on the mount as recorded in Matt 5,6,7. The prophet of Islam literally broke the commandments and taught his followers to break it not even one was made part of his Pillar that constitute the righteous needs in Islam.
As for the Quranic Contradictions, out of more than 240 I only gave a few to Ayesha to respond to but up to now she has not. Can you help her out? Here they are:
a.Examples of internal contradictions—
Q54:19 mentions Ad was destroyed in a day but Q69:6,7 mentions Aad was destroyed in seven nights and eight days; Q19:17 shows an angel appeared to Mary but Q3:42 shows several angels appeared; Q28:40 mentions pharaoh drowned and died but Q10:92 states that the same pharaoh was saved;
b. Examples of scientific errors-
Q18:86 states that sun sets in a muddy spring of water; Q15:19 mentions earth is flat; Q86:6,7 states that semen emits from between back-bone and the ribs;
c.Examples of historical blunders—
Q19:27,28 states that Mary was the sister of Aaron, whereas history shows they were born about 1300 years apart; Q28:8 tells that pharaoh and Haman were living at the same time and place whereas history clearly shows they were born about 1000 years apart and pharaoh lived in Egypt and Haman lived in Shushan city in Persia; and Q4:157 says that Jesus was not crucified whereas it is crystal clear in historical records that Jesus was crucified and not another man who looked like Jesus
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Nicaea
written by Mule , March 05, 2010
"From these there appears almost no evidence that the council of Nicaea made any pronouncements on which books go in the Bible, with the ambivalent exception of Jerome, or about the destruction of heretical writings, or reincarnation. However it did condemn Arius and his teachings, and the Emperor Constantine did take the usual Late Roman steps to ensure conformity afterwards. However these were not put into effect; and Arianism made an almost immediate comeback. Even Arius was recalled by Constantine."

This is what I found at the bottom of the web site for which duh_swami gave the link, tertullian.org. Evidently Nicaea did not decide on the biblical canon as it wasn't on the agenda. Arianism was. I don't believe that any council determined the canon of scripture. The whole of the church decided by general acceptance, not by decree. Athanasius made a list in 367 for example and the third council of Carthage confirmed in 397 the generally accepted canon. Roman Catholics like to claim that they decided the matter for the benefit of the church but this is not true. For what it's worth a bit of off topic stuff. Have a good one.

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Translation.
written by Reed Wilson , March 06, 2010
Machmoed. Not only with Arabic, it is really difficult to have exact rendering from one language to the other. Of course we can explain the meanings.
Not as a challenge, I feel it is good offer if you explain some arabic words. In 2/125 there is a word mathabaوَإِذْ جَعَلْنَا الْبَيْتَ مَثَابَةً لِلنَّاسِ
Translators mean it a Centre. You agree?
You seem to be a very useful person, lady or gent.

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Omni.......
written by Reed Wilson , March 06, 2010
Clement Pastor. You complain "You are yet to give an instance in the Quran or hadith where Allah demonstrated that he was omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresence". Yes you are right. How I wassupposed to do that? Did I promise? Sorry I don't remember.
Consult Machmoed. He is our MQ i.e Master of Quran.
Would you believe Hadith? You are a serious gentleman.
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Mule
written by duh_swami , March 06, 2010
So when do you think the various books of the Bible were codified under one cover?
Ordinary people did not do that...There were several versions of that were floating around prior to The King James version...The Tyndale (1494 – 1536) version for instance...He translated the Bible into English, but what was he translating from, if not from and earlier version under one cover?

From wickepedia...Whereas John Wycliffe had earlier produced an English translation of the Bible from Latin, Tyndale was the first to translate from the original Greek language. This was only made possible after Erasmus made the Greek New Testament available in Europe.

If they were all translating from earlier versions of the Bible, the Bible must have been under one cover or it would not be the Bible...So when do you think these various language Bibles in Latin or Greek, get under one cover?

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To Reed Wilson I don't know that Machmoed is our MQ but I am sure he will not say anything favourable for your Quran
written by Clement- The Islam- Watch Pastor' , March 06, 2010

I would have believed any miracle from the hadiths had the Quran not say that Allah and his Mohammed were incapable of doing anything miraculous except to recite the Quran. I believe you have respect for the Quran more than Hadiths. Another thing is that you know the battle of Badr was recorded in the Quran as if it was a miracle but then in the hadiths it was reported that those defenseless merchants were ambushed and killed it was not a battle but armed rubbery and Quran say Mohammed was not given power for any miracle he depended solely on the ferocity of jihadist to get his 20% of his booty which he shared with Allah while throwing dust at the enemies and promising the jihadist virgins in his paradise. I have not seen anything in the Quran that looks divine and I want you to prove me wrong.
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2 All
written by Machmoed , March 07, 2010
I'm not your MQ (whatever that means) and to my understanding and beliefs all scriptures are human imagination. All because people believed it was necessary and still do. It's necessaty that drives species/life.
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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , March 07, 2010
Mathabat in this case (before the word there is albayta (room/house)and after it it sais for the people/humanity) it likely means a "place of gathering".
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Bible under one cover?
written by Mule , March 07, 2010
I guess it depends what you mean "under one cover". If you mean this literally I think it would be difficult to do this before the advent of printing because they were all hand-written copies. To have a hand-written copy of the whole Bible "under one cover" would be too bulky and heavy to be of any practical use. I am not a scholar on this. Codification would come much later under the auspices of textual criticism as a scientific discipline. As I understand the Jews used scrolls of the old testament divided up in to parts for easy use in the synagogue. As Christianity spread the Bible was translated in to the languages of the new converts. So there came in to existence translations of the orginal Greek and Hebrew in to Syriac, Coptic, Georgian, Armenian, Aramaic, Latin and so on. As far as I know Jerome translated the Bible from the earliest Greek manuscripts available or generally approved at that time in to Latin for example. There is some controversy over the validity of the Received texts, textus receptus, based on the Alexandrian family of texts over against the Textus Sinaiticus and Textus Vaticanus which are older but supposed by some to be corrupted. I favour the Textus Receptus. Justification given by Dean Burgon Society favouring the 1611 King James as the best english translation version of the Bible.
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Mule...
written by duh_swami , March 07, 2010

Isn't it interesting that all of the different early translators of the bible were using the same source material?...They must have had tons of different manuscripts and scrolls to examine...but isn't it odd, how they all came to pretty much the same conclusions...No matter what, someone had to decide what to put under one cover, that we now call the Bible, and what not to...There were lots of 'books', excluded...Pope Clement made the comment that there were a multitude of 'gospels' in his day...These 'gospels' condensed down to the four that are in the Bible (NT)...Who made the decision to only include those?
And on what basis did they exclude others?...I read where some decisions were based on the arbitrary concepts of too long or too short...So my question still stands...Who dunit? And how did they do it, and when?...Here's a partial answer...Notice the word 'completion'...

1,400 BC: The first written Word of God: The Ten Commandments delivered to Moses.
500 BC: Completion of All Original Hebrew Manuscripts which make up The 39 Books of the Old Testament.
200 BC: Completion of the Septuagint Greek Manuscripts which contain The 39 Old Testament Books AND 14 Apocrypha Books.
1st Century AD: Completion of All Original Greek Manuscripts which make up The 27 Books of the New Testament.
315 AD: Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identifies the 27 books of the New Testament which are today recognized as the canon of scripture.
382 AD: Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain All 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test).

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

A fair history...
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The Canon of Scripture
written by Mule , March 07, 2010
I would recommend a book like "F.F. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture". I don't think there was one individual or one ruling institution dictating composition of the Canon of the Bible. This was something that gradually happened in the Church over a period of perhaps hundreds of years. The canon crystallised over a long period of time in to a collection of writings upon which the vast majority of the believers agreed upon and which possessed their own internal authority. The apocrypha was not accepted in the Jewish/Hebrew bible and Jesus never quoted or alluded to these books. I understand Jerome himself was sceptical concerning them. I have read that the Catholic Church wanted to include the Apocrypha because it supports some of their doctrines like praying for the dead. I don't think the length of the books is a criteria as there are long and short books both in the Old and New Testaments.
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Mule
written by duh_swami , March 07, 2010
Does one mans book tell the whole story? Why does that time line say completed if not completed...or are those dates and statements false?
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Time line
written by Mule , March 07, 2010
http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm
This site may help on the apocrypha. Just found by googling.
I think your time line looks ok. I have a later date for Athanasius, namely 367. I don't know why the apocrypha was included in the Septuagint. Of course one man's book can not tell the whole story. The world is a small place because of the internet. I quote the words of my Saviour : "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you."
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commanding?
written by Machmoed , March 08, 2010
Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Typical! the one that ever said this can not be my friend!
It's the same as believe in Allah and his last messenger Mohammad and without it you're not a good muslim.
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Mule
written by duh_swami , March 08, 2010
There is a lot of unanswered questions here, but I didn't mean to turn IW into a Bible history site...so I will consider that good enough is good enough...Thanks for your input...
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Prophet.
written by Reed Wilson , March 08, 2010
Clement. You say "but I am sure he will not say anything favourable for your Quran". So, Clement, you are the long lost prophet! smilies/smiley.gif
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Reed you say I am long lost prophet? Did Machmoed say anything good for the Quran?
written by Clement- The Islam-Watch Pastor , March 08, 2010
Hear what Machmoed said above "I'm not your MQ (whatever that means) and to my understanding and beliefs all scriptures are human imagination" Can you hear that? So I was not wrong.
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2 Lester
written by Machmoed , March 11, 2010
And then what...few nukes wil kill millions of innocents and will leave the ideology as it is. We need those people. Nukes are not the solution. The solution lies with muslims themselfes. They have to wake up and we are helping them to awake.
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To Machomoed,
written by Healer_999 , March 11, 2010
Your opinion (motion) is seconded.

It is outrageous to think that way, like Lester E. Reed's suggestion.

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