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The Quran and Hadith: Which is More Authentic?

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In debates on Islam, deceptive moderm Muslim intellectuals are quick to reject those hadiths that show Islam in a bad light. Little do the know that the authenticity of the hadith, given its remarkably objctive and scientific method of collection, would stand higher than the Quran, whose codification was shabby at best...


The Quran is considered like the backbone of Islam although the bulk of the religion is made from the sunna, or Mohammed’s traditions, which is based on his hadiths or sayings and considered second to the Quran in its importance. Practicing Islam is impossible without the sunna, because the Quran doesn’t explain anything about the Islamic rituals or sharia and refers Muslims to take Mohammed’s example, which only comes through his hadiths (Q.59:7).

It is frustrating that whenever ‘intellectual’ Muslims are engaged in debates on Islam, they quickly distance themselves from those hadiths that tend to implicate their religion unfavourably, no matter how authentic those hadiths are. Denying a hadith has become a defence-tactic by Muslim apologists in their effort to maintain the integrity of Islam. Their logic is that Islam doesn’t fall by the loss of one hadith or two, because Islam is kept up by the Quran. On the other hand, those Muslims are not ashamed to quote other hadiths, no matter how unauthentic they are, to boost their argument in favor of Islam. However, an overwhelming majority of Muslims remain strong believers in both the Quran and hadith, which they rightly consider to complement each other. The main stream Muslims consider those, who deny the hadith, as infidels, who would eventually deny the Quran as well. In many countries, your life will be as endangered by rejecting the hadith as by rejecting the Quran.

Behind the declared reason for denying the hadith lies the undeclared, but true, reason. The hadiths come in detailed language and with several narrations that support each other, which leaves little room for Islamists to take recourse of word-game or manipulation of meanings. On the other hand, the Quran comes in a vague, abridged and self-contradicting format that leaves room for twisting the language, as well as meanings, of its words. The Quran is covered with a thick layer of haze; some Muslims use this lack of clarity to argue and claim they can see a picture different from that of its critics.

How authentic is the hadith?

There are different collections of hadiths that Muslims consider to be the most authentic; the most well-known collections are Sahih al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. Other collections include Al Nissaey, Al Tirmithy, Ibn Dauod and Ibn Maja. Together, these six collections are called the authentic six, the Sahih Sitta.

The ‘science of hadith’ (Ilmul Hadith) is a well-known and prestigious speciality in all Islamic university. It teaches how those scholars managed to gather their collections and how they undertook arduous journeys, travelling the Islamic world, to accomplish their objective. The methodology they used, considering its time, was exemplary. They studied each hadith in details; its text and its chain of narrations and classified them into grades according to their authenticity. Even by today’s standards, their scholarship and dedication to objectivity was amazing. Most of the two hundred thousand or so hadiths that were subjected to their thorough assessment were rejected and only a few thousands made it to their Sahih (authentic) books. Their objectivity meant that many ‘good looking’ hadiths had to be rejected while others, not so good looking ones, had to be included because of the evidence available in their support. If Muslims can be proud of anything at all, objective academic approach, adopted by those scholars in collecting the hadiths, would top the list.

Those early Muslim scholars, like Al Bukhari and Muslim, were no ordinary people; they were well-informed highly educated and intelligent, and most of all dedicated to honest research to find the true life of the prophet. In short, they were the geniuses of their time. It is laughable that some modern Muslims, with questionable knowledge and education, dare to dismiss the brilliant works of those illustrious scholars as faulty, just because they don’t to go well with their biased opinions.

How authentic is the Quran?

Q.2: 106. Any verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute with something better or similar.  Don’t you know that Allah can do anything?

The above verse is a short answer to those, who claim the Quran was preserved in a tablet in heaven. The verse is a clear admission that the Quran contains contradicting (Muslims call it abrogated) verses, as well as verses that have been completely forgotten! But one need not worry; Allah was capable of bringing similar verses or even of replacing them with better ones!

Unlike the hadith, the collection of the Quran was politically motivated and employed no methodology or high standard of scrutiny that characterized the collection of hadiths. The vulnerability of the Quran lies in the fact that the presence of only one error, say a misplaced word or letter, is a good enough proof that the entire book is a hoax.

It is essential in Islam to believe that the Quran is the preserved word of Allah. Therefore, it has an unquestionable authenticity. Indeed, Muslims never question the authenticity of the Quran, which is where their problem lies. They believe that the reason why Islam came to existence was the distortion that entered the previous Holy Scriptures. In other words, Muslims believe that Allah revealed the Quran with the determination to preserve it. With that in mind, one would expect Allah to have employed extraordinary measures to preserve what is supposed to be the most important and final divine document to mankind. But He didn’t! In fact, all the circumstances and ways the Quran was revealed, and it was handled by Allah’s beloved prophet, it was an ideal setting for the Quran to be corrupted if not lost, which it did.

1. The Quran was revealed to Mohammed, who was, as Muslims insist, illiterate and, therefore, unable to verify the accuracy of the scripts written for him by some volunteering scribes of no high standard. Trusting Mohammed with the Quran is a greater blunder than trusting an illiterate person to edit New York Times. With a document as important as the Quran, it would not be enough just to assume that the scribes were honest and trustworthy, especially that at least one of them, Abdulla Ibn Abi Al Sarh, admitted that he regularly made changes to the text of the Quran without Mohammed even noticing! [1]

2. Muslims claim that the Quran was completely written during Mohammed’s life time, but there is no acceptable evidence to support such a claim. It is logical to believe that the Quran was not properly written in the first thirteen years of Islam, while Mohammed was still in Mecca because he simply didn’t have the resources to do it. One would expect that writing down the Quran might have been Mohammed’s first priority after he assumed power in Medina, but he was too busy in wars to think of it.

After establishing his Islamic state in Medina, Mohammed could have ordered a formal recording, indexing and safe-keeping of the most important document of Islam. Even he could have stamped it because he owned a stamp. But Mohammed did nothing of that sort, which indicates that he never took the matter seriously. In fact, there are reasons to believe that Mohammed actually benefitted from that chaotic state of the Quran. An undocumented Quran gave Mohammed the freedom to change his mind or contradict himself and get away with it, claiming that the earlier memorized verses had been forgotten or faded away from memory. Recording the ‘revealed’ verses in Medina took place in a casual manner; the job was carried out by whoever was available from those volunteering scribes. Some verses were written by more than one scribe, causing confusion, while others may never had the chance to be written at all, causing even more confusion.

3. The Quran was revealed, in the seventh century, in Arabic, a language that had not yet a well-developed script. Many Arabic words with different meanings shared the same script. The Arabs solved this problem by adding different numbers of dots to the letters that share the same appearance, but that solution came years after Mohammed’s death. As an example, the Arabic word harb, which means war, has the same appearance like a dozen other words with completely different meanings, like these: حرب.خرب.حزب.جرب.حزن.جزت.حزت.خزن(The above words mean: war, damaged, party, tried, sadness, rewarded, caused pain, stored)If you strip the letters from their dots, all the words look exactly the same, and it was left to the readers’ commonsense and intelligence to work out which particular word was meant by a particular script.

Ideally, for a better preservation of the Quran, Allah should have educated Mohammed and created the dots before ‘revealing’ the Quran.

The Arabs claim that their language is a superior language, hence chosen by Allah as His official means of communication. Other Muslims agree with that claim and praise the language as the most beautiful, without even speaking or understanding the language. The truth is that Arabic is a complicated language that is difficult to develop especially that it is now attached to the Quran, which is holding it back.

Even in our time, and after the ‘invention’ of the dots, reading an Arabic text is still a guess work. Arabic books and newspapers are printed without the diacritical marks to reduce the clutter around the words. The diacritical marks were ‘invented’ over a century after the dots. Without the diacritical marks, the fourth word in the above example, Jarab, could be read as follows: Jarraba=tried, Jurriba=has been tried, Jarab=plague, Jurub= suffering of plague!

4. Writing technology in Arabia was very primitive and employed poor quality and perishable writing materials like palm leaves and bones.

Although we read the Islamic history only from it’s heavily biased Islamic sources, but we frequently stumble upon some historical facts like the following:

  • Ibn Massoud was renowned among Mohammed’s companions as the most notable in his knowledge of the Quran; it is claimed that he recorded his own copy which he kept with him. Ibn Massoud’s copy of the Quran was significantly different from the official copy of Uthman, which he refused to recognize (2). Some verses were lost, even the ones kept in Mohammed’s own house! Aysha admitted that she used to keep the “stoning verse” under her bed until it was eaten by a goat! [3]

  • Al-Hajaj Ibn Youssef Al-Thakafi, the ruthless ruler of Iraq during the Umayyad dynasty, made many changes to the official Quran many years after Uthman. [4]

  • Political corruption, power struggle and instability characterised the period of Uthman’s rule.  It was in such an unhealthy political climate when Uthman ordered the compilation of the Quran.

  • Uthman sent four copies of his official Quran to the various regions of the expanding Islamic state and kept one copy in Medina. None of those copies seem to have survived. There is no evidence that any of the old copies of the Quran, that we have today, dates back to Uthman’s time. The oldest copy available, which is the manuscripts of Sana’a (Yemen), dates back to many decades after the time of Uthman and contains significant differences from the current Othmanic version of the Quran. [5]

  • Many Muslim scholars are aware of the weakness of the argument that the Quran was documented during Mohammed’s time. They claim that the Quran was preserved mainly in Muslims’ chests, the written documentation was only a backup! Unfortunately for them, making such a claim is like digging the grave for the Quran, because the main reason behind writing a formal copy of the Quran, and burning all the others, was to stop the disagreements between Muslims. The Quranic verses that were preserved in the Muslims’ chests were so different that they accused each other with kufr (unbelieving)!

The Quran is probably the least authentic document in Islam as evidenced from the state of confusion and disagreements that prevailed amongst early Muslims. The early Muslims disagreed on what constituted part of the Quran and what didn’t. Ibn Massoud’s copy of the Quran included two chapters less than Uthman’s copy, because he did not believe the last two chapters were actually Quranic chapters.[2] Others reported that Surat Tauba (Chapter Nine, which contains 129 verses) used to be as long as Surat Bakara (Chapter Two, which contains 286 verses) before the verses went missing [2]. Abdullah Ibn Umar reportedly said, 'Let none of you say, "I have got the whole of the Qur'an." How does he know what all of it is? Much of the Quran has gone’. Let him say instead, I have got what has survived (6). The enormous amounts of repetitions and contradictions could be an indication of some degree of duplication and manipulation of the original text.

According to the existing Quran, the penalty for adultery is only described in verses Q. 24:2 (flogging hundred lashes) and Q4: 15 (house detention), and nowhere in the Quran is stoning mentioned. However, Muslims agreed for fourteen hundreds years that the penalty of adultery is stoning to death, because the verse, which abrogated the above two verses, was there and remains effective in its orders, hukman, even though its words were cancelled, kawlan. We can add this logic to the pile of other bizarre justifications, used by Muslims, to understand the Quran. However, we have the right to ask: why Allah keeps in the Quran the obsolete verses and omits the valid ones?

References

1.  Ali Dashti, 23 years, a study of prophetic career of Mohammed.

2.  Al Itqan fi ulum al Qur'an - Al Suyuti. ‘Arabic’

3.  Ibn Maja,1944, Musnad Ahmed 25784 ‘Arabic’

4.  Al Masahif- Sajistani ‘Arabic’

5.  islam-watch.org

6.  Abu Bakr al Suyuti, "al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an", 1935/1354, pt 2, p. 25) ‘Arabic’

Comments (84)Add Comment
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Dear Mumin Salih or Editor
written by Isam , June 29, 2009
The folks at Islam-watch keep repeating the same lie again and again:

Can the editor or the writer of this article answer the below questions for us please:


1. You claim that the Quran is not preserved because the number of verses in Sura Altuba today is not the same as it was some time in the past. Can you please site your source?
2. Can also enlighten us if there are more than one version of the Quran exist today?
3. Can any other book the bible included claim to have the same authenticity as the Quran? Is not that what Allah promised in the Quran when he said that we have revealed it and we shall protect it? can someone rebut this argument with proof please.
4. You only sourced people like Ali Dashti who is known for his opponent views against Islam. That is like quoting the Israelis on Palestinian rights?

Finally, I do not know when people here will get some adequate writing skills and speak the truth as it is without twists and deceits.

Regards,

Isam
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Authenticity
written by Anti Clot , June 30, 2009
The fact that the hadith appeared much later reveals rather clearly that they cannot be too reliable. Why didn they appear before? Was there no need for nor any interest in what Muhammad taught? Therefore many western scholars think that the Hadith are no reliable at all. Concerning the quran I would like to refer to the yemenite parchements which were collected and restored by german scholars described in another article on this site. This parchment which can be dated very accurately at 705-715 a.D. (during the rulership of Al Walid) is different from the modern quran. Moreover, there was an even elder copy which was overwritten and which was different again. Therefore, we have, including the mdoern quran, at least 3 different versions of the quran and it is likely that there were more steps during the evolution of the quran with more versions.
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Re: Isam
written by Anti Clot , June 30, 2009
I am so tired to read again and again the arguments by many muslims that they are so proud that their quran is so well preserved without any alteration while other holy scriptures were allegedly altered. While this is not true (see the comment above) it does not say anything about the true value of the quran. Is there anything of value written in the quran which helps muslims to become better off than other people? What about wife-beating which is promoted in the quran? And what about the many contradictions in the quran? Last but not least I would say that the quran does not reveal anything which has not been revealed before. So why should god "reveal" a useless book with nothing new? By the way, there are not only scientific errors in the quran, the quran also took many storys from the bible, the Talmud and other sources that are clearly not historic. For example, most modern scholars agree that Moses is not a historic person, and that he never existed in reality. He was probably invented much later. There are many contradictions concerning Moses both in Bible and Quran: Why is the Pharaoh not called by his name??? The title Pharao was not in use during Moses alleged lifetime. During the same time, the jews were still polytheists. Cruxifications were not in practice in ancient Egypt. Must I tell more? No, it is useless because most muslim never listen and never understand.
0
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written by Mumin Salih , June 30, 2009
To Islam:

Your question should be: what is the proof that the existing copies of the Quran were no different from the ones Muslims had a thousand years ago? The answer is: There is no proof!
However, my references are listed at the end of the article.
The Quran today is very different from the one found in Sanaa/Yemen in the 1970s, which is the oldest copy of the Quran in existence today. You should wonder why Muslims hide this information.
Since the invention of printing, Muslims kept printing the same copy of the Quran again and again so no wonder they are all similar. The hand copies that existed before, some of which may have been different, have disappeared over time.
Lastly, it is perfectly OK to quote Ali Dashti, who was a Muslim and only left Islam after he learned the truth. Ali Dashti was not biased. Can you answer who do you quote when you discuss Islam? You only quote Muslims’ sources of course. That is biased.
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written by vbv , June 30, 2009
I would say that both are Authentic BULLSHITS. There is no need to go about nit-picking these bullshits which are of no value to humanity ,neither as a literature nor as a philosophy or spiritual expostion.
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to Isam
written by Tony , June 30, 2009
Your comments are like arguing whether shit is dark brown or light brown! It is STILL SHIT! The Koran is lke that; look at the 'Islamic' Republic of Iran; who wants to live in a sociery dabbles so much in Islam? Islam is not a religion; it is a very serious problem.
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Sira
written by Kinana , June 30, 2009
This is a very helpful article. Thank you. If you do not think it is too off topic can I ask you (Mumin Salih) how you rate the Sira by Ibn Ishaq? There are stories there which are not in the hadith. Would that disqualify them as authentic?

if it is too off topic please just point me to a url.

thanks
0
Myths and Holy Scriptures
written by Anti Clot , June 30, 2009
Some anonymus Jews wrote the Pentateuch according to their needs. Probably the Higra was invented to compare Muhammad with Moses who was also compared to Jesus who also allegedly fled. Therefore, we can assume that until 750 or so, the islamic history is merely a myth (Heilsgeschichte). Why do all the hadith, the prophets biography came so late? Was nobody asking for it before? And why did the Madhhab appear so late too? And why did the early islamic rulers, the ummayyads, never printed any symbols of islam on their coins? All in all, there is no authenticity at all and the quran, it seems, is nothing more than a random collection of religious texts with some later additions according to the needs of the ruling governments to begin war with the orthodox christian neighbours.
0
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written by duh_swami , June 30, 2009
Good article...thanks...reading this and other articles such as those by kasem and others, help a lot in untangling the web of Islam. I already know a lot about Islam, but every time I come to IW I learn more...Thank you and MA Khan and others...Glad you got your site up and running...
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written by Highlander , June 30, 2009
The Muslims cherished belief that the Quran is perfectly preserved ,free from any variation , is wrong. The Quran has a history of its own. Even though the hadiths are fairly reliable, I would say the Quran is more authentic than the hadiths.The Quran is an authentic text to the extent that it largely retains the material initially delivered by Muhammad. One can freely assume a relative authenticity of the text in the sense that it adequately retains the gist and content of what was originally there.
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written by Mumin Salih , June 30, 2009
To Kinana:
We must be careful when we read any history because there is some degree of bias. Remember that history is written by the victorious side with an inherent degree of bias.

I am afraid that Mohammed’s history is only written by his followers. Ibn Is-hak sira is just a history book which should be read with caution, because it attempts to polish Mohammed’s image. When we write about Islam, we normally refer to Islamic sources, which still implicate Mohammed despite the evident bias. This tells you a lot about the truth of Mohammed.
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Question to muslims
written by Ali , June 30, 2009
Muslims say Allah's books given to Jesus etc were corrupted that is why Mo was sent the correct book with a guarantee that Allah will himself protect it. Why didnt or couldnt Allah protect his original books ?. Did he goof and said oops "this time let me watch my book and not let any one corrupt it". Wouldnt it be a lot more smarter for Allah to send a bound copy of Quran right in the beginning instead of sending Jibraeel for 23 years with one ot two ayas in each trip.
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Hadiths is history, Quran is fairy tale
written by Sunny , June 30, 2009
There is absolutely no comparison. Hadiths is history witnessed by thousands and chronicled by pious honest scholars to their best ability. Quran are rants of a sick man supposedly messages from God by his own statements without a single witness or proof. No one saw Jibraeel or Allah. Brain dead muslims consider recorded history as doubtful but believe in rants of an illiterate robber rapists and a killer authentic words of God.
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Quran
written by Sammy , June 30, 2009
Quran was bullshitted by a smart man to fool his fool hardy followers to acquire booty and p_ ssy.
0
...
written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
LIES.

www.answering-christianity.org proves all the lies above wrong.

Bible is false, proven, www.biblerrors.com

Why do you all have to lie so often?

Try and debate me and watch your lies crumble.

twitter.com/islamqa

This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
0
quran and hadith
written by balam , June 30, 2009
Both quran and hadith contain no wisdom and can not be the inspired word of God.First of all,we have to analyse the character of Mohammad-the author of quran,who was basically a robber,child abuser,rapist,murderer,a thief turned self proclaimed prophet with no prophetic credentials.How could any body with integrity follow that evil man.Quran in fact is the incoherent out bursts of an illiterate man who came up with proclaimations according to situations.Hadiths are like the biased accounts written by devout Muslims about their 7th century god-father of arabia with such details which put Muslims on the defensive about the true character of their hero called Mohahammad.V.B.V has described very accurately both quran and hadiths and can not be improved upon.
0
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written by Pete , June 30, 2009
Abu Shuja'ah:

The URL's you posted are biased cherry picking moslem sites that have no creditability. As an agnostic who has studied the bible (old and new testament), the qur'an, the Tipitaka of Buddhism, The vedas, Upanishads, and Manusmriti of the Hindus. I unfortunately have not yet studied the Srimad Bhagvatam and Bhagwad Geeta. As far as your assertion that the bible is false, true and untrue. The bible old and new testament were written by men INSPIRED by god, and except where someone is quoted is not the exact word of god (and even the quotes are questionable). Thus the various bibles of the various christian sects can vary. Also the old testament is basically the history and laws of the Jews. History is written by men and is subject to the bias of if you were the conquerer or the conquered. Thus historically you can have numerous errors of history in the bible.

The qur'an as moslems like to say is the EXACT WORD OF ALLAH. If it is the exact word of allah written from all time in heaven, how can it have so many historical and scientific errors? Why is there all this abrogation? Why did allah not give mohammed the finished version abrogation free? Can't allah make up his/her /its mind?

Face it (if you can) the qur'an is no more the exact word of allah any more than the bible is the exact word of god. Infallible beings CAN NOT make mistakes and do not change there minds, the number of errors in both the qur'an and the bible show that neither one is the exact word of an all knowing infallible being.
0
Bible credibility
written by geoff dickson , June 30, 2009
to Isam and Abu Shuja'ah

The Bible gets its undisputed credibility from fulfillment of prophecy.
Danieln12;11 predicted the building of the Dome of the Rock over 1200 years before.
Daniel 12:12 predicted the Battle of Tours when Charles Martel defeated the Muslim army of Abdul Rahman in 732AD
The formation of the Jewish state in 1948 was predicted 2,500 years before it happened.
The recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 was predicted over 1200 years in advance.

There are so many prophecies which have come true!
How many people do you know that can do that?
How could the Jews fake something hundreds of years in advance?

Think about it!!!
0
Reformist muslims
written by Torchbearer , June 30, 2009
Mr Isam comes to the site as first observer and starts with I dont agree, whatever is mentioned is false etc.
Ok do one thing. Please ask your brothers in all the world to eliminate the bad verses, I hope the Quran will remain just 10 % especially the mecca part.
If you want to believe in a pedophile, rapist, immoral, pig Muhammed you are most welcome, but please change or eliminate the verses which asks for killing, harming, taxing non-muslims. Please ask others to stop ploygamy, please stop stoning and at least become human beings. Let muslims shave and be clean. Please dont do circumscion of small children and female gential mutiliation. Please become human beings and make some better societies in muslim majority lands. Please stop taking money from UN for your islam generated poverty. please confront the terrorists to be peaceful from the so called "good verses" of islam. Please be Human first, not in body but by brain, ethics etc.
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Agree
written by MJohan , June 30, 2009
I agree. I could never understand why quran not revealed in a single go. After all it is not an extensive work of tens of thousands of verses. It is relatively a very small book and a lot of stuff is just repetitive in nature. But muslim apologetics would say Allah does his job mysteriously.
0
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Quran, how do we know it is the same?

There are several Hadiths in which it is recorded Muhammad(saw) speaking about the Muslims carrying the Quran with them. If the Quran as a book was not made as yet, what were those men carrying and what Quran was he referring to?

From Ibn Omar: ... 'The messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: ‘Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy’’. (Sahih Muslim & Sahih Bukhari)


In fact, scrolls found by the University of Munich bombed during WW2, after 50 years of research by non-Muslims concluded that all 40,000 Arabic (most of which were ancient and within the first 50 years of the Hijri Calendar) found that they were all correct with the Qurans of that time.

It was a custom at the time of Muhammad(saw) and of the Companions (ra) to carry with them there favorite Chapters of the Quran, or new ones they were to learn on their travels throughout the known world.

Carbon dated scrolls and actually place the scrolls at the time of Muhammad(saw) and are in conjunction with the Qurans of today.

Zaid ibn Thabit was the chief scribe, who used to record down the revelation, dictated by the Prophet. After the Prophet’s time, in the battle of Yamama, a large number of the huffaz (those who had memorized the Qur’an) died. Then Abu Bakar appointed Zaid to collect all the available written versions of the Qur’an and to bring out a master copy. Since he had been the chief scribe of the Prophet, he was the most suited person for that job.

When he completed this work, he gave the collection of written materials to Abu Bakar, which he kept with him till his death. After his death, Omar, the second khalifah, finally gave it to his daughter Hafsa – one of the prophet’s wives - for safekeeping. It was from this collection of material that Khalifah Othman prepared several copies in the form of the first books of the entire Qur’an. Some of these copies still exist.

As well as stones, tablets and other scrolls which have been scientifically proven to be from the Sahabah's (ra)time are also in conjunction with today's Quran.

Thousands of Mosques throughout the known world at that time had Chapters and Verses of the Quran engraved unto their walls as can be seen in many mosques and are also when compared with today's Quran, the same text.

As regard to the Sana'a Mss, there is nothing "shocking" about its discovery. At most, it is claimed that there is a fragment where the end of sura 26 is followed by 37. But this amounts to nothing, since it is permissable to place suras in any order in a partial mushaf. So this is hardly "news" or a "shocking" discovery.





Moreover, after the publication of the Atlantic Monthly, Puin wrote a letter in which he revealed:





"The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur'anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur'an published in Cairo in which is written:



Ibrhim next to Ibrhm

Quran next to Qrn

Simahum next to Simhum



In the oldest Yemeni Qur'anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel alif is rather common."





Prof. Azami comments:



"This deflates the entire controversy, dusting away the webs of intrigue that were spun around Puin's discoveries and making them a topic unworthy of further speculation."





Source: Puin's letter and Prof. Azami's comments cited from: M. M. Azami, The History of the Qur'anic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments, UK Islamic Academy, 2003 pp. 12









Some extra info:





Question



Why would manuscripts have to be washed off or erased? What was wrong with them if the parchments were fit to be washed and then have the Quranic text rewritten upon them?



Answer



This was a common practice in ancient times. When enough of a manuscript's writing wore off (ink does not bond to parchment like it does to paper), all of the writing was washed off to make the expensive parchment usable for a new text. This was an ancient way of recycling. The washing, fortunately for us, was not complete: that's how earlier texts can be seen using ultraviolet light underneath newer texts. I believe a Christian manuscript (at St. Catherine's monastery in the Sinai?) was examined a few years ago under ultraviolet light to reveal an earlier, lost Greek work.

HOW IS BIBLE FALSE?

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"

From Jeremiah:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:smilies/cool.gif"

From Jesus:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"

I am the owner of Bible Errors. www.biblerrors.com

Who wants to debate me.

Errors in Quran? Bring it. Not here, on our forums, its much easier!
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...
written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
HOW DO WE KNOW BIBLE (OT AND NT) ARE FALSE?

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"

From Jeremiah:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:smilies/cool.gif"

From Jesus:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"

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the best prophecy of all
written by geoff dickson , June 30, 2009
A prophecy given to Daniel by the angel Gabriel in 552BC was to predict the day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to fulfill another prophecy of Zechariah 9:9.
The prophecy was to start on the 1st Nisan 445BC and it was for 69 weeks of years, or 173,880 days.
The fulfillment date corresponds to 6th April 32AD or 10th Nisan in the Hebrew calendar in use at that time.
This is in EXACT agreement with the Gospels (John) which claimed Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey on Sunday 10th Nisan.
Not bad, eh?
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written by geoff dickson , June 30, 2009
to Abu Shuja'ah,
Understand this!
Moses gave the Ten Commandments from Mt Sinai.
Jesus confirmed the commandments and obeyed them.
Mohammed broke the Ten Commandments and was a lying, murdering, Jew hating, woman degrading, white supremist, slave trading paedophile.
How can you follow someone like that?
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Muhammad(saw) never lied. An entire city of thousands, called him "The Truthful One", Jews, Christians, Atheists, Polytheists alike.

Yet you one person can slander him and slander your predecessors?

Pedophile:
Aisha (ra) was 8. Sex or sexual acts could not be done until puberty.

Bible (OT and NT): They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-1smilies/cool.gif"

The girls were raped by Bible orders.

"Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse....."

"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."

==================================

Murdering:
Quran Chapter 2 Verses 190-194, we are only allowed to fight if oppressed which they were.

Biblesmilies/cheesy.gifeuteronomy 20:16
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."


1 Kings 21
20 Ahab said to Elijah, "So you have found me, my enemy!" "I have found you," he answered, "because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD.
21 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
22 I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to sin.'

2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.


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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Jew Hating:
Not in Quran, rather we are told to respect them however if they slander us etc, we have a right to defend oursvles.

Biblesmilies/tongue.gifOPE CLEMENT VIII

"All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit. They have brought many unfortunate people into a state of poverty, especially the farmers, working class people and the very poor.
Then as now Jews have to be reminded intermittently anew that they were enjoying rights in any country since they left Palestine and the Arabian desert, and subsequently their ethical and moral doctrines as well as their deeds rightly deserve to be exposed to criticism in whatever country they happen to live."


JESUS CHRIST, speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of St. John, VIII:44

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - then answered the Jews - "


MARTIN LUTHER, Table Talk of Martin Luther, translated by William Hazlet,page 43

"But the Jews are so hardened that they listen to nothing; though overcome by testimonies they yield not an inch. It is a pernicious race, oppressing all men by their usury and rapine. If they give a prince or magistrate a thousand florins, they extort twenty thousand from the subjects in payment. We must ever keep on guard against them."


REV. GORDON WINROD, in his book The Keys to Christian Understanding,pages 114 - 115

"Judaism does not know Jesus Christ. Judaism hates Jesus Christ. When St. Paul was in Judaism, before he was converted to Christianity, he hated Jesus Christ and persecuted Christians and Christianity."
Paul said: "You have heard of my earlier career in Judaism - how furiously I persecuted the Church of God, and made havoc of it; and how in devotion to Judaism I out-stripped many men of may own age among my people, being far more zealous than they for the tradition of my forefathers." (Gal. 1:13, 14, Weymouth Translation)

REV. WILLIAM S. MITCHELL of Philadelphia, quoted in Count Cherep-Spiridovich'sbook The Secret World Government, page 194

"If there is an ingrate in history, it is the Jew. In this land which befriended him he as conspired, plotted, undermined, prostituted and corrupted and (hiding to this hour behind the braver screen of other folks), dares to contrive and scheme the death of every Christian principle which has protected him."


ST. JUSTIN, martyr stated in 116 A. D.

"The Jews were behind all the persecutions of the Christians. They wandered through the country everywhere hating and undermining the Christian faith."


ST. JOHN, Gospel of St. John VII:1

"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry because the Jews sought to kill him."


M. H. DE HEEKELINGEN, in Israel: Son Passe, Son Avenir

"The former Rabbi Drach, converted to Catholicism, says that the Talmud contains "a large number of musing, utterly ridiculous extravagancies, most revolting indecencies, and, above all, the most horrible blasphemies against everything which the Christian religion holds most sacred and most dear."
"In the matter of the translation of the Talmud by non-Jews, we have always preferred that of Luzsensky, whose accuracy has been established by the Courts. In 1923, the Public Prosecutor of Hungary caused his Hungarian Talmud to be seized on account of "attack on public morals" and "pornography." In delivering its verdict, the Court declared 'INTER ALIA:'
"The horrors contained in the translation of Alfred Luzsensky are to be found, without exception, in the Talmud. His translation is correct, in that it renders these passages, which are actually to be found in the original text of the Talmud, after their true meaning."
QUINTAS SPETIMUS FLORENS TERTULLIAN (160 - 230 A. D.) Latin Church Father "The Jews formed the breeding ground of all anti-Christian actions."


REV. MARTIN LUTHER, sermon at Eisleben, a few days before his death,February, 1546

"Besides, you also have many Jews living in the country, who do much harm... You should know the Jews blaspheme and violate the name of our Savior day for day... for that reason you, Milords and men of authority, should not tolerate but expel them. They are our public enemies and incessantly blaspheme our Lord Jesus Christ, they call our Blessed Virgin Mary a harlot and her Holy Son a bastard and to us they give the epithet of changelings and abortions.
Therefore deal with them harshly as they do nothing but excruciatingly blaspheme our Lord Jesus Christ, trying to rob us of our lives, our health, our honor and belongings."


MARIA THERESA, Queen of Hungary and Bohemia (1771 - 1789)

"Henceforth no Jew, no matter under what name, will be allowed to remain here without my written permission. I know of no other troublesome pest within the state than this race, which impoverished the people by their fraud, usury and money-lending and commits all deeds which an honorable man despises. Subsequently they have to be removed and excluded from here as much as possible."




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written by geoff dickson , June 30, 2009
to Abu Shja'ah
A few examples...
Bukhari 5.59.369 Mohammed asks for someone to kill an enemy and Muhammed bin Maslama agrees if he can lie to which Mohammed says yes. Thus Mohammed broke the 8th Commandment.
Mohammed broke the 9th Commandment when he coveted Zainab.
Mohammed broke the 7th Commandment (stealing) when he began stealing from Quraysh caravans and kept the booty.
Mohammed condoned slavery starting with his example at Banu Quraysah in 627AD, and slavery is legal in the 4 Sunni Sharia courts. To date Mulsims have enslaved 19 million people.
Mohammed said that women were deficient and worth only half a man, and that hell will be full of women etc. etc.

However don't be surprised as the Bible calls him a False prophet!

Daniel 9 says that prophets will be sealed up by 397 BC with the bookof Malachi.
Jesus was not a prophet but the one who fulfilled prophesy starting with Psalm 22.
Jesus stated that people do not marry in Heaven while Mohammed says there will be no bachelors in Heaven with 72 virgins.
2 Peter 2:18 states that only false prophets lure people with the flesh.
Ezekiel 38 names the nations of Satan as Iran, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Libya etc. All Islamic nations.
Daniel 7 describes the actions of Mohammed as a beast and the rise of the Ottoman empire and Revelation 13 and 17 expose the Islamic dynasties as Satanic. Revelation 2 claims Satan's seat is in Pergamos Turkey etc. etc.
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Degrading of Women: Where in Quran...

Editor: Please do not load the site with cut & paste materials from elsewhere. Be concise, brief and to the point. And do not take over the thread by repeated postings.
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written by Pete , June 30, 2009
Abu Shuja'ah:

You are very good at cherry picking verses out of context. You quote the "nice" verses which have been abrogated and fail to quote the new (and improved? ) verses.

Quran Chapter 2 Verses 190-194, we are only allowed to fight if oppressed which they were.
abrogated TO

Sura 9:5
“Then when the Sacred Months have passed, kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and observe the Islamic lifestyle, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

WHO is being oppressed here, moslems or non moslems?

"In fact when asked who is more important, he said the mother 3 times and father once. The Mother is therefore 3 times MORE important than the father."

BUT mohammed also said "Musnad Ibn Hanbal (vol. 2, p. 2992), for example, records Muhammad saying “Women, dogs, and donkeys annul a man’s prayer.” Indeed, in Qurtubi’s same Tafsir (vol.15, p.172), he records Muhammad saying , "A Woman may be likened to a sheep—even a cow or a camel—for all are ridden.”

See I can do that to,

BUT you still have failed to answer my questions.

The qur'an as moslems like to say is the EXACT WORD OF ALLAH. If it is the exact word of allah written from all time in heaven, how can it have so many historical and scientific errors? Why is there all this abrogation? Why did allah not give mohammed the finished version abrogation free? Can't allah make up his/her /its mind?

Face it (if you can) the qur'an is no more the exact word of allah any more than the bible is the exact word of god. Infallible beings CAN NOT make mistakes and do not change there minds, the number of errors in both the qur'an and the bible show that neither one is the exact word of an all knowing infallible being.
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written by Pete , June 30, 2009
A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country's religious curriculum states Islam advocates slavery. "Slavery is a part of Islam," says Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, according to the independent Saudi Information Agency, or SIA. In a lecture recorded on tape by SIA, the sheik said, "Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." His religious books are used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the country and abroad, including the United States.

Long after all other cultures have condemned slavery as violating basic human rights, islamic nations still continue to hold humans in the bondage of slavery.
It does not matter what the bible said about slavery 4,000 years ago. It only matters what we do today and moslems are still today in the slave trade.
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written by Pete , June 30, 2009
Muthuswamy cites research on the Koran, conducted by the Center for Political Islam, which illustrates the Islamic focus on conformist behavior and beliefs. According to the Center’s analysis of the Koran, the Sira, and the Hadith, only 17% of the Islamic trilogy deals with the words of Allah. The remaining 83% refers to the words and deeds of Mohammed. Of all of the references to “hell” in the trilogy, 6% are for moral failings, while 94% are for the transgression of disagreeing with Mohammed. Statistical analysis of the trilogy revealed that 97% of references to “jihad” relate to war and a mere 3% to the concept of “inner struggle.”

About 67% of the Koran of Mecca deals with punishing unbelievers for merely disagreeing with Mohammed. Over 50% of the Koran of Medina deals with hypocrites and jihad against unbelievers. Nearly 75% of the Sira deals with jihad. About 20% of the Hadith by Bukhari is about jihad. The majority of the doctrine is political and it is all violent.

In 4% of the cases, women were superior, in 91% of the cases they were inferior and in 5% they were equal. But there is a big catch. The only way that women are equal is after death on Judgment day, when men and women will be judged on how well they followed the Koran and the Sunna. And guess what? The only way to follow the Koran and the Sunna is to obey men. Equality means obeying men. Muslim women are superior by being a mother, who must obey her husband. So the perfect woman on Judgment day will be a mother, who obeyed all the men in her life. So really, the Muslim women are subordinate to men in 100% of all of the Koran, Hadith and the Sira.

http://tinyurl.com/3c4z6o
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
You are very good at cherry picking verses out of context. You quote the "nice" verses which have been abrogated and fail to quote the new (and improved? ) verses.
===================================
Lets see what abusrdities you talk about now.

*********************************************
Quran Chapter 2 Verses 190-194, we are only allowed to fight if oppressed which they were.
abrogated TO

Sura 9:5
“Then when the Sacred Months have passed, kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and observe the Islamic lifestyle, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

WHO is being oppressed here, moslems or non moslems?
==================================

Fail! Absolute Fail! ahahaha.

Chapter 2 verses 194
Did you read 194?

The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil). (194)

Nothing was changed. It was there... you failed, omg, so funny!

*********************************************
"In fact when asked who is more important, he said the mother 3 times and father once. The Mother is therefore 3 times MORE important than the father."

BUT mohammed also said "Musnad Ibn Hanbal (vol. 2, p. 2992), for example, records Muhammad saying “Women, dogs, and donkeys annul a man’s prayer.” Indeed, in Qurtubi’s same Tafsir (vol.15, p.172), he records Muhammad saying , "A Woman may be likened to a sheep—even a cow or a camel—for all are ridden.”
===================================

Can you provide an english source for this? I have looked and only found this in Arabic. Unless I get a source I will not explain as I would could be possibly explaining a mistranslation etc.....

There are 4 schools of thought in islam, in one of the schools touching women makes them impure for prayer, this is for a variety of reasons, kissing, touching can lead to sexual arousal = leakage of sexual fluids, can make someone impure to pray.

*********************************************
See I can do that to,

BUT you still have failed to answer my questions.

The qur'an as moslems like to say is the EXACT WORD OF ALLAH. If it is the exact word of allah written from all time in heaven, how can it have so many historical and scientific errors? Why is there all this abrogation? Why did allah not give mohammed the finished version abrogation free? Can't allah make up his/her /its mind?

===================================

Historical and Scientific errors? How can I ANSWER THEM IF YOU DIDN'T BRING ANY? Not smart, truly.

What abrogation? Mind showing me some....

*********************************************
Face it (if you can) the qur'an is no more the exact word of allah any more than the bible is the exact word of god. Infallible beings CAN NOT make mistakes and do not change there minds, the number of errors in both the qur'an and the bible show that neither one is the exact word of an all knowing infallible being.
===================================

God is not of us, He is our creator, He understands us. If I give you a book of quantum physics to learn, can you do it right away?

What if over a period of time, with practical applications, which way would serve you best to learn and understand?

Same principle.

The Law of Moses was for ONE people. It was a law suited for wandering in the desert, quick justice, in the desert they were nomads, not settlers ;-) Eye for en eye etc

The Law of Isa (as) was to love one another, to serve ONE people at a particular time and place. If the disciples were to not love and fight Roman oppression, they would be crushed.

Each law had a reason for it's purpose and how it was revealed.

Muhamm(saw) was a living, practical example of how to follow a law for all ages. The laws revealed to him were for not ONE people but all of mankind.

I await your "errors" and "abrogations".

You came in trying to sound more inteliigent than me, you failed with the first quotes......truly, not smart.
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Koran is false
written by sultan , June 30, 2009
Dear Abu,

Bible is proved wrong is Ok but that doesn't mean Koran is right.
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Koran is bullshit
written by sultan , June 30, 2009
If bible is proven wrong that doesn't mean Koran is right.
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Saudi Muslims follow their own version of Islam, not of what traditional Islam follows.

They have developed their own beliefs and ideologies from misguided men.

So don't blame Muslims, blame the Saudis for their "enhanced, pure" own version of Islam which "they with the help of the British had fun spreading".

It's called Wahabbism, not Islam.
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written by Pete , June 30, 2009
"Egyptian Cleric Muhammad Hussein Ya’qoub: The Jews Are the Enemies of Muslims Regardless of the Occupation of Palestine," from MEMRI TV, January 17 (just posted), with thanks to Sr. Soph:

Following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Egyptian cleric Muhammad Hussein Ya’qoub, which aired on Al-Rahma TV on January 17, 2009.

Muhammad Hussein Ya’qoub: If the Jews left Palestine to us, would we start loving them? Of course not. We will never love them. Absolutely not. The Jews are infidels – not because I say so, and not because they are killing Muslims, but because Allah said: “The Jews say that Uzair is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that Christ is the son of Allah. These are the words from their mouths. They imitate the sayings of the disbelievers before. May Allah fight them. How deluded they are.” It is Allah who said that they are infidels.

Qur'an 2:217.

This is it. We must believe that our fighting with the Jews is eternal, and it will not end until the final battle – and this is the fourth point. You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth.

It is not me who says so. The Prophet said: “Judgment Day will not come until you fight the Jews and kill them. The Jews will hide behind stones and trees, and the stones and tree will call: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him – except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews.” I have heard that they are planting many of these trees now. [...]

As for you Jews – the curse of Allah upon you. The curse of Allah upon you, whose ancestors were apes and pigs.

That's Qur'an 2:62-65; 5:59-60; and 7:166.

You Jews have sown hatred in our hearts, and we have bequeathed it to our children and grandchildren. You will not survive as long as a single one of us remains.

The above does not sound like respect to me. It would seem you are trying to blind us with a mountain of al-Taqiyya.
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Degrading of Women in Quran: Where?

In Bible:
We see commands about killing all non-virgin women, men and children, and keeping the virgins: "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 31:17)"

We also see that a virgin is forced to marry her rapist: "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:2smilies/cool.gif"



In the NT we see Jesus using virgins in his parable. Let us look at Matthew 25:1-13 from the NIV Bible:

Matthew 25

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1. "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2. Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.
4. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
5. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6. "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
7. "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.
8. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'
9. " 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
10. "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11. "Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12. "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
13. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Oh come on, statistics? From a random site with no background in islam or where they got this info from!

FAIL

Come with some real arguments!
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taqqiya
written by msrk , June 30, 2009
Sad that the muslims think that lieing to non muslims help earn them a place in what satan tells them is heaven isnt it.

No muslim will ever answer why they consider the most foul of sexual perversions holy.

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To Abu Shuja\'ah
written by Apostate , June 30, 2009
Please note that Chapter 9 of the Quran was revealed as the final verdict on Jihad (fighting the kafirs) in 631, not long before Muhammad died. Chapter 2 was revealed in 623 through 624.
Allah had grown mature, at least his thoughts, by 8 years when verse 9:5 and 9:29 were revealed, which commands unconditional war against the infidels--commanding annihilation of the Pagans (9:5) and subjugation of the Jews and Christians to dhimmitude--without any ground needed.
That is exactly what Muhammad did, clear in all classical Islamic literature. Post-Muhammad history of Islam was relatively more humane in some areas like India, where the Pagans were allowed to live on which was a violation of the Quran and Muhammad's example in Arabia.
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Please note, the verses were revealed for time and place for a purpose and the message of Jihad did not change.

So whatever you are trying to insinuate about time frame is a bunch of bollocks.

They were revealed in pieces so the people could have understood them better.

That's why in 5 years Islam had an empire, it took 5 years with Islam to build an empire, not thousands or hundreds.

You failed.
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written by Abu Shuja\'ah , June 30, 2009
Prove me wrong, show I am lying and show where I lied.

Hypocrisy and Slander are not welcome. Sad to think non-Muslms have to use that to try to get something against us.

Please grow up.
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Too many postings by Abu Shuja\'ah
written by Editor, MA Khan , June 30, 2009
Dear Abu Shuja'ah,
Your long, copy-n-paste, postings are loading the site. We had enough troubles with our host lately over overloading their server. We won't be accepting any more post from you on this thread. And once again, we request you to write concise comments on the topic than copy-pasting stuffs, related or not. If the same trend continues, we have to shut you out from posting.

Let me conclude by exposing your idiocy in your own words. You said:
Please note, the verses were revealed for time and place for a purpose and the message of Jihad did not change...
That's why in 5 years Islam had an empire, it took 5 years with Islam to build an empire, not thousands or hundreds.


In your very words, you prove that Quran 2:190-194 has been abrogated by Allah's final words of 9:5 & 9:29. Otherwise, there is no way that Arab Islamics could attack lands outside Arabia, such as territories belonging to Persia, for example. The Persians had never oppressed Muslims, kicked them out from their homes, or attacked them, whatsoever. We know that Muahmmad himself, for no reason, aggressively sent a letter to Persian king Khosro II, demanding his submission to Muhammad's rule, which was rejected. Later on again we see caliph Omar sent letters demanding submission to the Islamic empire or face war.
Yes, we agree with you that Muslims had established empire within a short time. But it was made possible by Allah's final words in verses like 9:5 and 9:29. Islam spread far far beyond the borders of Arabia, only on the strength of 9:5 and 9:29 etc. On the strenghth of 2:190-194, they had no ground to go attack those far-off lands. It was possible because of unrestrained barbarism commanded by Allah in verses 9:5 and 9:29.
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Re: Abu Shuja\'ah
written by Anti Clot , July 01, 2009
The fact that some Hadith refer to the quran is absolutely useless in this discussion because the Hadith came into being much later. Indeed they were written to invent a tradition which pleased the contemporary rulers. This is all what islamic scholars do, always referring to islamic sources, which, of course always confirm each other. However, all evidence contradictious to islamic traditions are ignored because it is very dangerous in the muslim world to find anything that does not fit into their Weltbild. Today it is very difficult to tell what really happened, however, we can be very, very sure that the history of islam did not happen according to islamic traditions which were invented much later, in many steps, which the constitution of what we call islam today not before the age of the Abbaside dynasty which implemented many Zoroastrian elements (goldziher et al.). There is no historical evidence at all about the so-called 4 right-guided prophets, and even the Umayyads did never show that they were muslims before around 690.
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Please!
written by Badger , July 01, 2009
The bible was written by humans who CLAIMED to have been inspired by god (anyone can claim that). The quran is CLAIMED to be the true word of god, but who wrote it? Humans. And again, anyone can claim that.

I could write a book with a god called the Great Penguin and then I could claim that "god" inspired me to write it. You'd have to swallow that. Why? Because "god" told me to correct the errors in the bible and the quran. Prove that he didn't tell me that. Wait... you can't. Whoops.

Ultimately, the book about the Great Penguin would be as flawed as the bible and the quran.

You know why? Because humans aren't perfect. And even if there was a "god", only an arrogant fool would claim to understand what that "god" wants. Why? Because this "god" would be such a highly developed form of life that we would not be able to understand what it wants. Compared to it we humans would be nothing but ants.

Conclusion: they're all wrong. All those religions were, ultimately, all created by power hungry men. Religion, especially the monotheists, strives to control people. You have the masses, the sheep, and then you have a small group of "priests" (or whatever you want to call them) who are allowed to perform certain rituals.

Oh and, Abu Shuja'ah:
Pedophile:
Aisha (ra) was 8. Sex or sexual acts could not be done until puberty.

WRONG. So very wrong. Apparently you know nothing about anatomy and biology.

Sex and secual acts can be done with 8 year olds. Some people (or better said monsters) even rape babies. A man can penetrate an 8 year old girl. Puberty is irrelevant there. She might not get pregnant but he can penetrate her. He shouldn't, but he can.

As for puberty, well... it all comes down to when the monthly bleedings begin. Some girls bleed earlier, some later.

Oh and, Ayatollah Khomeinei once wrote that a man can have sexual pleasure even with a baby. Nice, no?

And if you really believe that Mohammed never lied, then you're truely naive. Mohammed was a human, ergo he was not perfect. Humans are not perfect, they are flawed. Humans lie. Thus Mohammed lied.

Oh and, now the big surprise:

God inspired me to write this post. He told me to do it.
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Honesty? Hardly..
written by duh_swami , July 01, 2009
Badger...I was going to suggest to Abu that he debate an atheist who does not buy into any holy book stuff, but you did it for me...As far as truthfulness of Mohammad...He always told the truth except when he was lying...According to Bukhari (Book #12, Hadith #795), Mohammad prayed to Allah for relief from debt, he told someone that debt made people liars and they break promises. he was talking about himself...if not, why was he praying to Allah for refuge from the sin of being in debt...Allah's solution was for Mohammad to start raiding caravans and villages as a means of debt relief...Allah and the messenger 1/5 of the loot.
Even 'if' Mohammad told no lies, he was still one of the most dishonest men in known history...
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...
written by Abu Shuja\'ah , July 01, 2009
A few lines of text are going to over load a website? What a bunch idiocracy! I run a network of websites and a few lines of text cannot "crash" a page. It's just comments. If yoiu have to lie to stop me from posting it shows your incompetance when talking about Islam.

You were never a Muslim. You sound like a God hating, hate mongering preacher, who only does it not for himself or because he assumes Islam is wrong but does it for attention.

NOTHING IS DIFFERENT BETWEEN 2:194, 9:5 and 9:25.

In fact show me what changed.

All it is saying is that there are sacred months in which war is not to be fought, however if we are attacked we have a right to defend ourselves.

Muhammad(saw) wrote letters to many a leaders inviting them to Islam. Islam was spreading throughout Arabia and Muslims were being oppressed, he wrote letters to them to invite them to Islam and stop the oppression or face war.

The Roman empire had a town full of Jews and some Muslims. The Roman Emperor told his council either they accept Islam because he fears Muhammad(saw) belief in God and it is something real, something true or give up on the town.

The council voted to give up on the town.

Again the letters had a theme, accept Islam and stop the oppression of Muslims or we will stop the oppression.

Show me how 9:5 changed 2:194 and or 9:25, come on, let's see.
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Anything
written by John , July 01, 2009
One thing seems clear from these discussions, human beings have a mysterious capacity to convince themselves of absolutely anything.

On the internet today, you can find very serious arguements that the earth is actually flat. You will find bizzare religions created by people who apparently believe their relatively odd religion is not only true, but self evident.

That others do not find their theologies to be self evident is attributed to all sorts of magical creatures that orthodox religions would laugh at.

Except for your religion (whichever it is) it seems that we would all have to agree that people can be convinved, or convince themselves of absolutely anything.

Objectively speaking, just noting that this capacity exists in humanity should give us pause at our own adamant assertions about things we have come to believe.

Alas, it generally does not. People are content to note that other religions are mysteriously irrational, while maintaining that their own religion is backed up by science.

Actually, science is incapable of addressing religious beliefs, as science is, in principle, falsifiable.

To say something is falsifiable means that if a statement is false that it could be proven false. Whether a particular god walked on water, or was escorted to Heaven is not falsifiable. In principle, no one can verify a religion to be false or true.

Yet people insist that Biblical prophecies have been fullfilled or that certain scriptures predict later technological discoveries.

We can usually see that other religions are full of absurd claims, just as we seem to be able to make absurd declarations about our own religion, and seemingly be unable to detect the errors in our thinking.

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Shuja\'ah, stop your lies...
written by Editor , July 01, 2009
Shuja'ah, your postings in this thread have been kind of spamming. That's what I want you to stop. And of course, loading many threads like this would be a problem not for me, but my hosting company. that's my experience.
----------
And when Muhammad sent letters to the Persian king and Byzantine emperor, there was no Muslims, living in those territories. Muslims were all engaged in incessant Jihad raids in Arabia--plundering, looting and enjoying sex with the thousands of enslaved women.

I agree that Muhammad asked those rulers to embrace Islam--that meant accepting Muhammad's rule as he was the undisputed military, political and religious leader of all Muslims--or face consequences.

Any talk of Muslims living in those lands and suffering oppression are blant lies, in which Islam, from Allah and Muhammad down, has attained a unbeatable mastery.

During Muhammad's time, particularly 424 onward, the most grotesque oppression that existed in the region was in Arabia---thanks to Muhammad's barbarism. Ask the Jews of Medina, Khaybar, Banu Mustaliq and so on.
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...
written by Abu Shuja\'ah , July 01, 2009
It's spamming if I'm off topic, I'm replying to your lies.

Change your hosting company, seems you make a lot of bad decisions.

You don't think Islam spread wide and far? In 5 years an empire was formed, Muslims were everywhere. Do you think it was only in Makkah?

Travellers from ALL over the world came to worship Pagan Gods in Makkah, turned to truth of Islam and spread it.

The Jews hated Islam and still do. They poisoned Muhammad(saw) and killed one of his companions.

In fact the JEWS conspired against him in the Battle of the Trench where he offered them protection against their enemies. The Jews went back on their end of the deal and let enemies in the city to kill Muslims.

The JEWISH LEADER acknowledged their deceit and allowed them, under their law to be executed for treason against the Muslims.

The Battle of Khaybar. 11,000 Jews vs 100 Muslims (after the other Muslims were killed). Guess who won? The Muslims!

The Jew were driven out of Medina for attackng and killing Muslims. Consider it a mirror of today's Gaza.

Again you fail.
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...
written by Abu Shuja\'ah , July 01, 2009
If this is supposed to make sense, what 4 prophets? What are you talking about??
0
...
written by Abu Shuja\'ah , July 01, 2009
Oh and, Abu Shuja'ah:
Pedophile:
Aisha (ra) was 8. Sex or sexual acts could not be done until puberty.
WRONG. So very wrong. Apparently you know nothing about anatomy and biology.
===================================
FAIL, I'm not speaking about either. It is ISLAMIC LAW which prohibits sex before puberty in marriage. Who knows at what age she began puberty? 11, 12, 13?

The average age for sex in USA before 1900 was to girls age 10 and younger. Facts at www.ageofconsent.com

So let's see sex at puberty with Islamic law or Christian and Jewish law 3 year old rape?

*********************************************
As for puberty, well... it all comes down to when the monthly bleedings begin. Some girls bleed earlier, some later.
===================================
and by Islamic Law he had to wait for puberty.

*********************************************
Oh and, Ayatollah Khomeinei once wrote that a man can have sexual pleasure even with a baby. Nice, no?
===================================

Shia are not Muslim, they practise Shi'sm, no Muslim calls Shia Muslim.

It's like a Christian in Arabia, the speak arabic, their book is in arabic and they call God Allah. Are they Muslim? No.

Same principle.

All Muslim scholars rejected them as Muslims, in fact they have beliefs not of Islam but mixed with Judaism and Christianity.

*********************************************
And if you really believe that Mohammed never lied, then you're truely naive. Mohammed was a human, ergo he was not perfect. Humans are not perfect, they are flawed. Humans lie. Thus Mohammed lied.
===================================
Proof of this? He isn't perfect, yes and God says he forgave him of his past and future sins, because he is human not greater or lesser than that ;-)

*********************************************
Oh and, now the big surprise:

God inspired me to write this post. He told me to do it.
===================================
You are funny, you logic shows it.
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Shuja\'ah: Last warning...
written by Editor , July 01, 2009
It's spamming if I'm off topic, I'm replying to your lies.

This topic was about the authenticity of the hadith and the Quran, the methodoloy of their collection, and which of the two were more scientific. And see, what you have turned this thread into. Covering Judaism, Christianity, and almost every other topic on Islam--thanks to your splendid artistry in spamming.

You don't think Islam spread wide and far? In 5 years an empire was formed, Muslims were everywhere. Do you think it was only in Makkah?

Here again you are lying blatantly. Muhammad's biographies makes it clear that some 70+ Medinans only converted to Islam, and they became part of Muhammad's community in Medina after the Hijra. After that all Muslims became part of Muhammad's Jihadi plundering and raiding community there. Only a handful of Muslims, who had migrated to Ethiopia in 615-616, remained outside Medina, but they also returned and joined him in Medina over a next few years. During that period, Muslim could be oppressed in Ethiopia only, but Muhammad never attack that country, nor were the Muslims oppressed there.
The Jews hated Islam and still do. They poisoned Muhammad(saw) and killed one of his companions.

Muhammad had killed over a thousand of Jews and enslaved thousands of Jewish women and children (of Banu Quraiza and Khaybar) before he was poisoned by an enslaved Jewish woman of Khaybar. He had before that evicted the Jewish community of Banu Nadir and Qaunuqa of Medina and acquired their lands and properties.
The Battle of Khaybar. 11,000 Jews vs 100 Muslims (after the other Muslims were killed). Guess who won? The Muslims!

Here you are lying blatantly again. The Muslim army was ~1,600-strong. You obviously exaggerate the number of Jews: even the women and children combined with the men were not not many. And Muhammad attacked unprepared as they came out to work early in the morning.
The Jew were driven out of Medina for attackng and killing Muslims. Consider it a mirror of today's Gaza.

Jews of Medina did not kill a single Muslim. This is blatant lie.

I'm warning you to stop these lies. Next time, any claim you make, attach your reference.

And I am asking you to a debate on these issues for posting on your site and mine. No further commenting, which is totally unrelated to the topic, will be accepted in this thead. Any further comments not related to the topic will be censored. And if you are game on a debate, send me an email.
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...
written by Pete , July 01, 2009
CSP is highly regarded throughout the moslem world for it's scholarship and factual books on mohammed.

Per CSP " Our work stands on its own. The only person that matters in discussing Islam is not the "expert" but Mohammed. Every paragraph of our books is referenced to what Mohammed did and said (his Sunna). Every paragraph can be verified by the use the reference numbers. Our books are fact-based knowledge, not opinion. Mohammed is our expert. We quote him in every paragraph."

Also Abu Shuja'ah I would not say "So don't blame Muslims, blame the Saudis for their "enhanced, pure" own version of Islam ... It's called Wahabbism, not Islam."

Wahabbies would be a bit more than perturbed with you for calling them apostates, if they hack into this site and find out who you are, you may find your throat slit like that of a chicken.

As I have said before you are just dumping mounds of al-Taqiyya on us. It is apparent you can cut and paste but when it comes to factual knowledge of islam or even the bible you can only answer questions with questions or totally ignore facts that have been shown to you.

"What abrogation? Mind showing me some...."

"There is a concept called "Abrogation" or "naskh," in the Qur’an, and that is: The Qur’an was (supposedly) revealed to Muhammad in a sequence of events, the latter verses supercede and nullifies the earlier verses. Out of the whole Qur’an, there are 124 verses that teach some tolerance towards non-Muslims...but here is the striking fact....all of these verses are void, and were abrogated by the last verse (supposedly) revealed upon Muhammad, and that is verse 9:5 listed above Suyuti (One of the most respected authorities in Islam) in his book "Istenbat al tanzeel" says: "Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5."Al-Shawkani in his book "Alsaylu Jarar" (4:518-519) says: "Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case." Finally here is what Muhammad the prophet of Islam himself said: Ibn Haban in his Sahih, vol. 14, p. 529, narrates: Muhammad said: "I swear by Him who has my soul in his hands, I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter." This concept in Islam is regarded my most scholars in the Islamic world, as a pretext for global war in the name of Islam.'

Facts not cut and paste, facts by some of the most respected authorities in Islam, Suyuti and Shawkani, facts by CSP renowned throughout the moslem world for their historical accuracy, and by many of those posting here that have a far better knowledge of islam and the bible, the qur'an and hadiths than you ever will. The old saying when it comes to you is quite true, "When you can't fight facts, obstruficate".
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Satanmohammad
written by Harry , July 02, 2009
Yeah Tony, You are right. I have a tissue paper factory in my country. I am planning to print the whole tissue papers with words Quran and Haditha so that everyone in my country use Quran and Haditha to wipe their shit.
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imperfect scripture
written by arman ogilvy , July 02, 2009
This has been an interesting article - it would have been nice to see an expansion on why, if the Quran needed hadith and/or sunnah to complete it, the 'perfect' Quran was not perfect in the first place? Surely the One is able to get it right first time round? We believe as mithst Muslims that all scripture (Tanakh, Bible, Quran) is corrupted to various degrees and it is our challenge to discern the intent of Allah. Having said this, GOD cannot be limited to scripture particularly when we create our religions from our (corrupted) scriptures, hence we believe GOD is not limited to or restrained by history, religion, scripture or man but is greater than all of these. In essence, scripture is but one aspect of the Divine's revelation, and our faith is not dependent upon it; rather, it is dependent upon us. Mashallah!
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Authenticity
written by Anti Clot , July 02, 2009
In short: The hadith are too late to be considered reliable, period. Why is there no single hadith available for almost 200 years? And then, suddenly, there are hundreds of thousands up to a million hadtith? This sounds very doubtful. The explanation is that Islam appeared much later than most people believe and that therre was a proto-islam that was much closer to christianity than most muslims want to believe. Only much later, when islam distinguished itself more and more from christianity, there was increasingly need for the hadith because many parts of the quran are not explanable without the bible. If we read some hadith carefully, many of them are nothing but explanations drawn from the bible how to understand the quran. This is truie at least from the apocalyptic parts of the quran, which were, according to the hadith, explaned according to the revealation of john. Ha, here we can see that islam began as a christian sect and ended as a new cult which, to some de4gree, still relies on chrisitanity but refuses to admit this fact.
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Islam\'s Common Thread
written by The Infidel Alliance , July 02, 2009
Whatever questions there may be about the Koran & Hadith, there is one common thread that is certain:

Muhammed, Islam's "al-insan al-kamil" or "perfect man", was actually a sadistic sociopath. Muhammed was a murderer, a decapitator, an amputator, a mutilator, a torturer, a slaver, a misogynist, a sex trafficker, a rapist, a sexual deviant, a child rapist, a liar, a looter & a thief, a genocidist and a self proclaimed terrorist.

Proof of each & every one of these acts can be found in black & white in the Islamic "holy" books.

Simply put, Muhammed was one of the most vile human beings in the pantheon of human history.

The Koran fetes Muhammed as "an excellent model of conduct". Sure, an excellent model of conduct if you are Charles Manson.

Muhammed should be reviled, not revered. The Islamists know it, which is why they devolve into enraged mobs of killing & destruction any time his name is discussed or his face is drawn. It is the only way they can defend the indefensible acts of Muhammed - silencing the truthful critics though fear, intimidation and wanton violence.

Muhammed is Islam's big lie. He was no "holy" man. He was no "prophet". He was simply a desert barbarian motivated by personal greed, lust & power.

~ The Infidel Alliance
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Sira
written by kinana , July 03, 2009
To M Salih
I take your points entirely. it cannot be considered objective history in the same sense as modern scholarship would consider history, but is the Sira considered sacred history? and Do devout Muslims believe the Sira to be true, like they believe the Quran and sahih hadith (Bukhari and Muslim) to be true? One Muslim told me that if anything is the Sira that is not in sahih hadith (Bukhari and Muslim) then it is not worthy of notice or much consideration.
thanks
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Who is Isa?
written by ha ha ha ..... , July 03, 2009
I have read in this site that Isa is not Jesus. After read Surah Maryam, and compared it with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, I found differences as follow:

1. Different birth-place. Isa under a palm tree, Jesus in a stable.
2. Maryam gave birth to Isa alone, she had no husband, Mary gave birth to Jesus with her husband, Joseph.
3. Grandfather of Isa from her mother side was Ali Imran, grandfather of Jesus from Mary side was Joachim. I believe Ali Imran was not Joachim. Too far a name. The nearest one was Amran, the father of Moses, Aaron and Mary (Maryam).
4. Baby Isa could talk while just 1 day old. Baby Jesus was a normal one, He cpuldnot talk while still a baby.
5. Isa had an uncle named Aaron. Jesus had no such an uncle with the name Aaron. See Nr. 3 above.
6. Isa was given a book by Allah, the Injeel. Jesus was not given any book by anyone.

Read also Matthew 28:18-20. It is to teach all the nations with what has been taught by Jesus.

Ha ha ha .... Still thinking Isa is Jesus? Pity ... pity ....
pity on you ..... ha ha ha .......
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ha ha ha .... Who is Isa?
written by ha ha ha ..... Who is Isa, dea , July 03, 2009
The Law of Isa (as) was to love one another, to serve ONE people at a particular time and place. If the disciples were to not love and fight Roman oppression, they would be crushed.

I have read in this site that Isa is not Jesus. After read Surah Maryam, and compared it with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, I found differences as follow:

1. Different birth-place. Isa under a palm tree, Jesus in a stable.
2. Maryam gave birth to Isa alone, she had no husband, Mary gave birth to Jesus with her husband, Joseph.
3. Grandfather of Isa from her mother side was Ali Imran, grandfather of Jesus from Mary side was Joachim. I believe Ali Imran was not Joachim. Too far a name. The nearest one was Amran, the father of Moses, Aaron and Mary (Maryam).
4. Baby Isa could talk while just 1 day old. Baby Jesus was a normal one, He cpuldnot talk while still a baby.
5. Isa had an uncle named Aaron. Jesus had no such an uncle with the name Aaron. See Nr. 3 above.
6. Isa was given a book by Allah, the Injeel. Jesus was not given any book by anyone.

Read also Matthew 28:18-20. It is to teach all the nations with what has been taught by Jesus.

Ha ha ha .... Still thinking Isa is Jesus? Pity ... pity .... pity on you ..... ha ha ha .......

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...
written by ha ha ha ..... Abu SHuja\'ah, , July 03, 2009
Abu Shuja'ah wrote:

The Law of Isa (as) was to love one another, to serve ONE people at a particular time and place. If the disciples were to not love and fight Roman oppression, they would be crushed.

I have read in this site that Isa is not Jesus. After read Surah Maryam, and compared it with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, I found differences as follow:

1. Different birth-place. Isa under a palm tree, Jesus in a stable.
2. Maryam gave birth to Isa alone, she had no husband, Mary gave birth to Jesus with her husband, Joseph.
3. Grandfather of Isa from her mother side was Ali Imran, grandfather of Jesus from Mary side was Joachim. I believe Ali Imran was not Joachim. Too far a name. The nearest one was Amran, the father of Moses, Aaron and Mary (Maryam).
4. Baby Isa could talk while just 1 day old. Baby Jesus was a normal one, He cpuldnot talk while still a baby.
5. Isa had an uncle named Aaron. Jesus had no such an uncle with the name Aaron. See Nr. 3 above.
6. Isa was given a book by Allah, the Injeel. Jesus was not given any book by anyone.

Read also Matthew 28:18-20. It is to teach all the nations with what has been taught by Jesus.

Ha ha ha .... Abu Shuja'ah, do you still thinking Isa is Jesus? Pity ... pity .... pity on you ..... ha ha ha .....
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Right Guided Califs
written by Anti Clot , July 03, 2009
Of course I referred to the Right Guided Califs and not the prophets. I am sure you must have noticed what I was thinking of.
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what nonsense from abushujaah
written by calebsingh , July 05, 2009
he quoting a correspondance from prof azami and gerd puin stands of no value publicly and privately puin has stunk on to his conclusions also no where in the world is there a radiodated quran belonging to 650 show it with evidence of radiodating done not some quote from islamic sites according to shujaahs conclusion the quran was word for word from the time of muhammed then why did uthman burn the variants if everything was word for word uthman had no business burning the word of mo or ordering it compilation a very very conving answer is required from muslim sources if not the only logical conclusion is that every of islam lacks credibilty
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Quran and Hadith
written by Anti Clot , July 05, 2009
There are also some islamic reformists in egypt calling themselves -Quranists- who only believe in the quran and not in the hadith. Interestingly, they got trouble with the gouvernment and the islamic establishment from Al Azhaar who both force the people to believe in the hadith because they are so necessary. Without them, many parts of the quran dont make any sense unless you have a look to the bible.
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...
written by a guest , July 06, 2009
"How could the Jews fake something hundreds of years in advance?"

By

1) Speaking vaguely so fools can interpret it any which way they please.
2) Speak of doom and gloom and dreaded diseases so in future when some calamity happens fools will immediately say this has been predicted
3) Speak of battle victories because on the average half the battles will be won so fools will interpret the winning battles to have been predicted hundreds of years back.

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...
written by a guest , July 06, 2009
"This is in EXACT agreement with the Gospels (John) which claimed Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey on Sunday 10th Nisan.
Not bad, eh?"

If I predict NOW(2009) that Obama will be elected as president in 2008 does that make me a prophet?

What if both the prophecy and the event prophecied are both cooked up by fraudsters to prop up their beliefs so that fools can say the prophecy came true?
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...
written by a guest , July 06, 2009
"Moses gave the Ten Commandments from Mt Sinai.
Jesus confirmed the commandments and obeyed them."

Which ten commandments. Moses was given two different sets of commandments and there are now three sets of ten commandments, catholic, protestant and hebrew. which set are we talking about here?

Wow! A christian condemning jew hating, christianity has certainly come a long way from hitler.
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...
written by @isam , July 07, 2009
Ah the typical reaction from a muslim who can't refute the claims made in this article.
Isam: you are so pathetic
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WellWisher
written by Abbas Khan , July 13, 2009
Peace Be Upon You All
Speaking on the topic Definately Quran is more authentic then the ahadis. Its a matter of Common Sense

@ Abu Shujah
I am realy impessed by how you placed your arguments but i was realy shocked when you said
"Shia are not Muslim, they practise Shi'sm, no Muslim calls Shia Muslim."
Can you define a muslim and prove your point my brother?

@Phedophile
Oh and, Ayatollah Khomeinei once wrote that a man can have sexual pleasure even with a baby. Nice, no?
Can you give me a reference?


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Khomeini pedophilia fatwa.. to Abbas
written by M. A. Khan , July 13, 2009
Here's a reference. Fatwa:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
[See http://www.homa.org/index.php?...Itemid=53; or "Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini: Political, Philosophical, Social, & Religious" By Ayatollah Khomeini (Batman Books, 1985).
Here's another Khomeini fatwa from same book on animal sex:
"A man can have sex with sheep, cows and camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine." Don't the buyers deserve a discount of some kind?

Khomeini's "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990:
"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned." What if it was really good and invites another lap or two? Must animals always be one-night stands?
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copy cat Abu Shuja\'ah
written by Paedophile Muhammad , July 22, 2009
Abu Shuja'ah is not only copy and past from "answering islam" he is also fantasizing Pedophilia into the Holy Bible just like Osama Abdallah did

If you dare read this link about christian respond

http://answeringislam.info/Responses/Osama/pedophilia.htm
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re: copy cat Abu Shuja\'ah
written by a guest , July 22, 2009
Abu Shuja'ah is not only copy and past from "answering islam"


My mistake: copy and past from "Answering-Christianity"
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Questions to the author
written by EvenHanded , August 27, 2009
I've been reading this article with a level of objectivity among other Islamic texts. I think the author of this article is clearly biased and offers nothing of value. The facts are pretty skewed and twisted to fit a preconceived notion. He first makes up his mind and then tries to find evidence to support his bias. Sorry, that is simply dishonest "research".

I particularly noted the following points. The value of a non-native of a language or an ignorant is pretty much nil. I can give you more exceptions than rules in the English language but people who are native speakers are fine with it. English is probably the most screwed up language in History of man but we manage to get by. The language only make sense to people who use it. We are not even in the position to criticize Old English because we don't use it. Therefore this charactarization of the idiosyncrasies of ancient Arabic is rather purile to say the least. The author further furnishes examples of modern day Arabic script and says "Hey if you strip away the dots, this wouldn't make any sense". In ancient Arabic, the characters were slightly different from one another, for example, F was more elongated than Q and to the native back then it was perfectly legibile. The dots and the helper vowels were added much later to accomodate non-natives.

By definition the Quran is also a Hadith. Probably the most authentic hadith because of the numerous chains of narrations. Every year, the entire Quran was recited in the month of Ramadan in every mosque across the Muslim world ever since it was ordered during the time of Prophet Muhammad and the trandition of memorization makes the Hadith look like child's play. Every letter's range of pronounciation is meticulously taught to the reciters and memorizers. This tradition has widely been used since day one and I don't know about anyone else but the promise of preserving the authenticity, I think, is upheld pretty well.

Judge
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the Text without error
written by kinana , September 01, 2009
to Judge
I think the author is speaking mostly of the written text and you are refering (mostly) to the verbal recitation.

would you agree with the author's statement:
'The vulnerability of the Quran lies in the fact that the presence of only one error, say a misplaced word or letter, is a good enough proof that the entire book is a hoax.'

Are you saying that the verbal recitation of the Quran was without error from the time of Mohammed to the time of Uthman? And that all the verbal recitations that occurred in different times and places were 100% the same, without error or difference in any respect?

If not, how did Uthman decide which to write down?

thanks
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the green book
written by hephzibah israel , September 19, 2009
khomeinei the green book its as sick as him
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SCIENCE : VIRGIN CANT GIVE BIRTH
written by SCIENCE : VIRGIN CANT GIVE BIR , October 20, 2009
SCIENCE : VIRGIN CANT GIVE BIRTH.

male req x-y chromozome to be born,if no male did mary,from where she got the male chromozome ???

did allah grow testicles to penetrate her ????

how did he transport his sperm into mary without breaking her virginity ???

nothing like this happened,she just had sex with some guy and to coevr it up made the virgin story.its ok,person born out of wedlock is also human,so i dont care if jesus was virgin born or not,but it proves that bible/koran is wrong.


if only 1 adam-eve was created from mud/dirt by imaginary jehova.allah---what was their race ???

and if they were from 1 race how did so many race of ppl come-white,black,brown,chinese,jap etc ????

it means no allah created man,we r evoeld by nature.proof is in our dna and genes.

for more info pls gioogle : richard dawkins

he beats christianity and islam hollow and exposes religion as the biggest hoax on mankind.
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...
written by a guest , October 21, 2009
Mumin Salih obviously knows Arabic and has written brilliantly on a subject he obviously understands. His arguments against the authenticity and reliability of the Koran are unanswerable. The most important point Salih raises is the fact that Mohammed apparently did not care about writing the Koran and thus preserving its exact wordings. Obviously, it was more convenient to have the ability to 'abrogate' it suddenly, any time he wished, thereby using 'Allah' the moon god to validate Mohammed's every whim and desire. Mohammed's ethics in the Hadiths were the ethics of convenience. Moreover, there appears to have been almost no care put into the editing of the Koran as it seems to have been practically thrown together from loose pages and parts of pages, with absolutely no chronology, jumping from subject to subject and from one narrative person to another even in mid-sentence. Who is speaking this message, we want to ask. Most of the time, it appears to be either the angel or Mohammed. When the editor realized this was an incriminating blunder, he inserted the word 'qul' (say) and moved the text into the voice of Allah. The Koran is a total jumble. The historical errors in the Koran show it to be the speculations of someone who relied primarily on hearsay and story-tellers for information and had a very poor memory to boot. The details of the Bible stories referred to are woefully wrong and embarassingly goofy at times. Most revealingly, there are verses in the Koran discouraging the use of 'hadiths' showing that the Koran was probably assembled at a rather late date (at least 100 years after Mo) when hadiths were circulating in large quantities. The fact that there were some 600,000 hadiths that were considered 'lies' by the textual scholars like Bukhari and that he accepted only about 2% of all the texts available, undermines the credibility of what is left. The internal contradictions and anomalies in the hadiths make the texts less credible once again. The only things that can be believed for certain are the horrifying stories of murder, torture, mayhem, mental illness and magic spells (cast on Mohammed) that cast him in a very poor light. No one would invent such revolting stories about a man and expect others to consider him the greatest religious figure of all time. The premise of Mohammed being a prophet is proved to be an impossibility by the Islamic Sira and Hadiths themselves.
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re: the Text without error
written by a guest , October 21, 2009
to Judge
.... how did Uthman decide which to write down?


We cannot know whether Uthman had anything written down. There is no scrap of Koran from his period. More than likely, the stories about Uthman's Koran were simply made up and backdated to provide artistic verisimilitude to a series of bald and unconvincing falsehoods. Anyone who disagreed was simply beheaded. A river of blood flows from the Rightly Guided Caliphs. They were too busy fighting one another to undertake such a scholarly exercise. The Koran was no doubt formulated to validate one of the caliphate candidates...probably Abd al Malik.
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Islam
written by Amir Syed , November 08, 2009
If you think Quran is not the word of Allah than make only one sura or chapter like in Quran. God said you can ask all the human and Jinn to help you to make only one Sura or chapter like in Quran.
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...
written by Shayan , November 23, 2009
So, you rate the word of a mortal HIGHER than the word of God?
First, God is the one who provided knowledge to the prophets. Prophet Muhammed himself wouldn't be able to prescribe procedures if there was no Quran.

The Holy Prophet is only the interpreter of the Quran. As the Quran tells us to "Pray, pay Zakat etc", the prophets job is only to "elaborate" or "show" to the people on "how" to perform certain activities. The Sunah is only things which the Prophet DID, and they are NOT Farz/obligatory as the Quran hasn't ordered them. It is only what the Prophet did, and he didn't ask anyone to follow those acts. And certain hadith are answers to peoples
questions at that time.

Example: It Was Said: O' Messenger of Allah, who is the most exellent of men? The Messenger of Allah (Pbuh) said: The believer who strives hard in the way of Allah with his person and his property.

So, by judging the topic, "The Quran and the hadith, which is more authentic?" i think you believe the hadith came before the Quran, thus, making it the father of Islam. Whereas, the father of Islam is the Quran, the book of God. Which created ramifications like the hadith and sunnah, as without the Quran, the Hadith or Sunnah cease to exist. The Quran was used to explain unclear things to people (as a reference). People can't quote themselves unless they have a source providing them with certain information. Get my point?

Hypothetically, lets say the Quran didn't require any elaboration, would you still regard it as inferior? If it wouldn't require any further elaboration or explanation by another source, there would be no hadith or sunnah. As the relation of the Quran and Hadith is only to explain further. And most hadith regard answers to peoples questions about something unclearified or seemingly confusing to them (see the examle above) And, the sunnah is the act of the propher which HE ONLY prefered to himself. Later on, people asked him why he did those things, like extending the ablution. (washing more body parts. The actual obligatory act is to wash a few parts, like the head, hands and feet) So, the people adopted those acts.

Regards,

Shayan
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False beliefs
written by elif , August 07, 2010
Every person has false beliefs. If rejecting hadiths makes a Muslim a better person, then it may be a good false belief. Nobody can scientifically *prove* that hadiths or Quran or any such text is TRUE. Claiming the opposite indicates the lack of awareness of the scientific methodology. The discussion has noting to do with science anyways! All that matters is what people BELIEVE and how it affects their life. So, hadith rejectors should be supported by anyone who wants the welfare of both the Muslim and the non-Muslim world.
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Bible Prophecy
written by Bible Prophecy , August 27, 2010
Quoting bible prophecy as accurate is worse than believing in astrology. Since your fortune telling has thousands of years to come true. The verses in the bible that where prophetic deal with two possibilities, Self fulfilling prophesies that the Jews and Christians have been wanting and tending to fulfill since they want it and believe in it. For example the referenced return of the Jews and their rape of palastenian land to make modern Isreal. Well if they had not been lobbying for this, it would not have happend, and why did they lobby for it, because it has always been a dream on their mind.

If you want true prophecy then tell me where in the bible does it say that in year so and so a person called so will do a thing. All prophecy in the bible is very vague.

If you want to attack another religion, then be prepared to be attacked.

Also it is very very unethical to use words like bullshit, in relation to the beliefs of billions.
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Geoff Dickson: has dick right there in his name
written by tp , February 03, 2011
Geoff, get over your conviction that the bible is true. It's not. Just like every other religion. This message board is like two people arguing over whether twilight or buffy is better. They are both fictional trash designed to strip money from fools.

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