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Why Islamists Persecute the Baha'is

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In the face of persecution of the Baha'is -- a peaceful community -- by the Mullahs of Iran, free people of the world must "defend freedom of conscience, including freedom of religion, irrespective of one’s own personal belief. It is for this reason that as a person who is not a Baha’i, I find it my solemn duty to speak up on behalf of a peaceful people, severely-persecuted by the savage Islamists," says the author.


Bahai Islam

This is the best of times and the worst of times, as the saying goes. Humanity is struggling on the one hand to free itself from the vestiges of its barbaric past while embarking on an exhilarating new way of life. It is the same story. The old is doggedly fighting the new on many fronts. And the new in this case is a huge paradigm shift of ideas and beliefs that demands total eradication of all.  This has kept mankind in a quagmire of wars, injustice and misery. In this realm of ideas, religions play pivotal roles and the old and the new clash, often violently. Ideas and beliefs are our software that determines how we behave. And the software of the past is no longer working because it is out of phase with the needs of the time as well as infected with destructive viruses.

Even a cursory look is enough to show that the software of Islam, over time, is so greatly manipulated by numberless sects, sub-sects and schools that it can hardly be considered a unitary belief system. And people are their ideas. Any assault on beliefs and ideas provokes the assailed to action.

This clash of beliefs is the reason for Islamists to unleash their power against the upstart iconoclastic Baha’i faith. In fact, the Baha’is revere Islam and respect all other religions. Baha’i faith has many teachings in common with Islam, so much so that some call it “Islam light,” because, while it retains some of Islam’s principles, it also abrogates a number of outdated and counterproductive Islamic laws and practices. Baha’is say their faith is not a wrecking ball that aims to demolish the schoolhouse of God called religion: a badly divided schoolhouse where everyone claims to worship the same God, yet keep oppressing, fighting and killing each other in the name of the same God.

Baha’is have a very rosy and possibly unrealistic view of humanity. They say that their goal is for every human being, irrespective of any and all considerations, to be granted all his God-given rights and be allowed to worship his creator the way he sees fit. They have a sort of lovey-dovey vision of the world where everyone will live as a valued member of the larger human family. Apparently they have hit a responsive enough cord with some 6-7 million people of the world from every ethnic, religious and national stratum. This vision may not convert the remaining 6-7 billion people any time soon, but it sure beats hands down the Islamists’ idea to force the world under their so called Ummeh with its stone-age shariah law.

Baha’is believe that God sends his teachers to his school, from time to time with new lessons, to help advance the people to a higher and higher level of humanness. Trouble is, they believe, that people cling to the old school-work and the old teacher and doggedly resist accepting the new teacher and his teachings. Baha’is think of God’s prophets as renovators who come from time to time to tear down walls of separation and to bring God’s children together in an open-air general classroom out of their own foolishly walled-in dungeons of exclusivity and ignorance.

Below are some of the Baha’i teachings that clash heads on with Islam’s and provoke the Islamists to do all they can to destroy the new religion.

* The people of God. Muslims believe that they are the chosen people of Allah and recognize no other system of belief as legitimate. Baha’is believe that all people are the chosen people of God: that there is only one God, one religion of God, and one people of God, the entire human race.

* Pearls on a string. Muslims contend that Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets; that God sent his best and final messenger to mankind, and any other claimant is an imposter worthy of death. Baha’is believe that God has always sent his teachers with new and updated lessons to educate humanity and shall do so in the future. There have been numberless divine teachers in the course of human history who have appeared to various people. They say that these teachers are like pearls on a string and that Baha’u’llah is the latest, but not the last pearl.

* Independent thinking. Blind imitation is anathema to Baha’is. Baha’is believe that the human mind and the gift of reason should guide the person in making decisions about all matters. To this end, they place a premium on education and independent investigation of truth.

Baha’is consider the education of women as important as that of men, since women are the early teachers of children and can play their valuable part by being themselves educated. By contrast, Muslims look to religious authorities for guidance and often deprive women of education and independent thinking.

In recognition of the importance of independent thinking, no one is born Baha’i. Once one is born to a Muslim, he is considered Muslim for life. If he decides to leave Islam, he is labeled apostate and, apostates are automatically condemned to death. By contrast, every child born in a Baha’i family is required to make his own independent decision regarding whether or not he wishes to be a Baha’i. Freedom to choose and independent thinking are cherished values of the Baha’is, in stark contrast to that of the closed-minded Islamists.

* Religion or science. Baha’is believe that truth transcends all boundaries. Scientific and religious truth emanate from the same universal source. They are like the two sides of the same coin. To Baha’is, science and religion are as two wings of a bird that enable humanity’s flight toward the summit of its potential; that any religious belief that contradicts science is superstition. Muslims believe that their religious scripture and dogma, irrespective of their proven falsehood, are superior to that of science.

* Gender equality. Muslims hold the view, expressly stated in the Qur’an, that men are rulers over women. Baha’is reject this notion and subscribe to the unconditional equality of rights for the two sexes. This Baha’i principle emancipates one half of humanity from the status of subservient domestic to that of a fully participating and self-actualized human. It aims to put an end to the heartless exploitation of women and demands that women be treated with all due respect under the law.

* Participatory decision-making. Islam, by its very nature, is patriarchal and authoritarian. Baha’is believe in the value of decision making through the practice of consultation; a process where everyone, irrespective of any and all considerations, has a voice in making decisions. This participatory decision-making principle abrogates a major prerogative of Islamic clergy who have been dictating matters to their liking and advantage. Also, at all levels of society, including the family, all affected members have the opportunity, even the responsibility, to make their views known without fear. Baha’i teachings clearly emphasize this commitment to a democratic decision-making in their scripture, “The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions.”

* World-embracing outlook. Baha’is love their native countries, yet extend that same love to the entire planet and its people. Baha’is believe that love has no limit and need not have limits. One can love his country and love the world at the same time. This love of the world is frequently used as a pretense by the Islamists to accuse the Baha’is of Iran as traitors to their own homeland. It is for this reason that the present mullahs ruling Iran falsely claim that the Baha’is are agents of the Zionist Israel and its American sponsor.

* Eradication of prejudice. Prejudice of any type is alien to the Baha'i faith and severely undermines its pivotal principle of the oneness of humanity. Muslims are notorious when it comes to prejudice. Prejudice against others is thoroughly exploited by the Islamists. In contrast, Baha’i scriptures say, “…again, as to religious, racial, national and political bias: all these prejudices strike at the very root of human life; one and all they beget bloodshed, and the ruination of the world. So long as these prejudices survive, there will be continuous and fearsome wars.”

* Abolition of priesthood. A major point of conflict involves the abolition of the clergy. Baha’is believe that humanity has matured enough that it no longer needs a cast of professional clergy to serve peoples’ religious needs. By one stroke, this Baha’i teaching puts hundreds of thousands of mullahs and imams out of business and arouses the powerful cast of the do-nothing clergy to fight to retain their highly privileged parasitic positions.

It is imperative for the free people of the world to defend freedom of conscience, including freedom of religion, irrespective of one’s own personal belief. It is for this reason that as a person who is not a Baha’i, I find it my solemn duty to speak up on behalf of a peaceful people, severely-persecuted by the savage Islamists.

Comments (40)Add Comment
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 16, 2011
Amil. Earlier you wrote "The Coming of the Mahdi" which is now followed by "Why Islamists Persecute the Baha'is".

Baha'is".were really persecuted. First 'they' fraudulently claim someone was coming and when 'someone' comes they persecute.

You have rightly identified this humanitarian issue which has no scriptural approval.

Thank you and good luck in your genuine effort.
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Persecution of Bahai Religion
written by The Great Buana , July 17, 2011
The persecution started immediately after the Bahai Religion came into being, under the iranian Kdjar Empire. Now it is still carried out by the Islamic Republic of Iran as well as by other islamic countries. So it doesnt matter wether they are sunni or shia, modern regimes or traditional regimes, there is no question that they are all intolerant and all talks about islamic tolerance are worth- and useless.
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 17, 2011
To Amil. You write "Baha’i faith has many teachings in common with Islam, so much so that some call it “Islam light,” because, while it retains some of Islam’s principles, it also abrogates a number of outdated and counterproductive Islamic laws and practices".

Will you please spell out what are those 'outdated and counterproductive Islamic laws and practices' which Baha'i faith abrogates? Jesus also wanted to reform. He did the same by contesting heresy. He suffered persecution and a new religion Christianity emerged as sect of Judaism, which was not his mission.
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written by fineliving56 , July 17, 2011
There is over 10 thousand guests online in here ...that is amazing ...never been this high ......Way is that?.
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Reed
written by duh_swami , July 17, 2011
a new religion Christianity emerged as sect of Judaism,

I guess you missed the part about the good news, that Jesus came with a new message, not the well known, and well used old one...Christianity is more than an updated version of Judaism...
I suppose because Judaism is older than Christianity and Islam, you could say that both are sects of Judaism. That means of course that you are a Jew. But wait...The Hindu religion is older than Judaism, so Judaism is a sect of Hinduism. So you are actually a Hindu...A Jewish Hindu...No wonder you're confused...
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 17, 2011
duh_swami. " a new religion Christianity emerged as sect of Judaism" is not my opinion, it is Gospel. When 'give opinion, I support it with logic. You should also do that.

You write "I guess you missed the part about the good news, that Jesus came with a new message, not the well known, and well used old one...Christianity is more than an updated version of Judaism..".

No dear. Read Gospel. Jesus will tell you.

You write"I suppose because Judaism is older than Christianity and Islam, you could say that both are sects of Judaism. That means of course that you are a Jew. But wait...The Hindu religion is older than Judaism, so Judaism is a sect of Hinduism. So you are actually a Hindu...A Jewish Hindu...No wonder you're confused..".

I am quite clear on this one thing that religion is same since beginning:

شَرَعَ لَكُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّىٰ بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ ۖ أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ ۚ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَا تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ ۚ اللَّـهُ يَجْتَبِي إِلَيْهِ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَن يُنِيبُ

"He has plainly clarified the religion which is revealed to you and that which (HNoah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were commanded to follow so that you would be steadfast and united in your religion. What you call the pagans to is extremely grave for them. God attracts to whomever He wants and guides to it whoever turns to Him in repentance. Only after receiving the knowledge people divided themselves into different groups because of rebellion among themselves. Had it not been for your Lord's giving them respite for an appointed time, He would certainly have settled their differences once and for all. Those who inherited the Book, from their quarrelsome predecessors, also have doubts and suspicions about it. (42:13-14)

I am not recollecting verse saying you were one ummah in the beginning and divided yourself by conflicting on issues already clear. May be you remember the relevant verses.
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 17, 2011
duh_swami."People were only one nation ummah. God sent messengers with glad news and warnings. He sent the Book with them for a genuine purpose to provide the people with the ruling about disputed matters among them. No one disputed this matter except those who had already received evidence before. Their dispute was only because of their own hostility. To deal with this dispute, God, through His will, sent guidance to the believers. God guides to the right path whomever He wants. (2:213)
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REED/Du-Swami no new religion in Juduism or Christianity.
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 18, 2011
You are talking of new religion, religion, religion. You will be surprised the word religion was never mentioned in the Old Testament, the scriptures of Jews, even when it is mentioned in the New Testament it was in a derogatory manner. In that the faith and relationship of the Jews with Yahweh had degenerated into a religion which could not save Paul who was later converted into Christianity.

Christianity is a new covenant, a new relationship with based on the faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Is not a new religion but a relationship based on love. Listen to this:
Heb 8:13 “ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
John 13: 34 “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
Ro 13:10 “ Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
1Co 15:56 “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.”
Ga 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
Ga 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
Rom 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
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written by Reed Wilson , July 18, 2011
Clement. Robinson in his "A Complete Guide to Beliefs, Custorms and Rituals", and Esler. in his book "The Early Christian World" write "Christianity began as a Jewish sect in the mid-1st century Originating in the eastern Mediterranean coast of the Middle East (modern Israel and Palestine), it quickly spread to Syria, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor and Egypt, it grew in size and influence over a few decades, and by the 4th century had become the dominant religion within the Roman Empire".

You may call it by any name, it comes under the definition of a region.

You quote Heb 8:13 “ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”. You didn't tell me who wrote Hebrews.

I have seen the declaration of Jesus Christ in Matthew that he did not bring any new law.

Thanks Clement for your response and for enlightening me.
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Reed Thank you too
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 18, 2011
I You have come again with the same question about the author of the Book of Hebrew why are you insisting on the authorship. Does the book pass the test of an inspired scriptures. Whoever wrote it he was inspired by the Holy Spirit period.

I appreciate your silence over your brother FAIROZ who stood for you for some times trying to sell your product-Islam to us. Only that he came too late. Please encourage him to join you and Malem not to run away.

When Jesus said he did not bring a new law he was referring to the moral law the Ten commandments. He spent sometimes to explain the principles underlining the moral law which is anchored on love. Listen to this:

Mat 22:37-40 “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
Not a little dot from the moral law is abolished but all the ceremonial laws which is based on animal sacrifice and ritual worship have been abolished because Jesus is the fulfillment of all sacrifices being the lamp of God that takes away the sin of the world John 1:29

Col 2: 12 -18 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
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Reed
written by duh_swami , July 18, 2011
You guys take yourselves way to seriously...All anyone has to do is tell a joke and it is met with reams of scripture and wild explanations...

Reed: duh_swami."People were only one nation ummah. God sent messengers with glad news and warnings.

Well the people in the Ummah that lived in African jungles and American Indians such as the Apache were ignored by Allah...Why was that? Did Allah have something against Geronimo?
Neither Geronimo, nor Chief Sitting Bull, for that matter, were mentioned in Quran...Why did Allah hate sitting Bull and will his murder? How did his murder benefit, Islam? The startling answer is that Allah didn't hate Sitting Bull, he didn't will it, and Islam did not benefit...This is because Allah didn't know those natives existed...His world was Arabia and the areas just around it... Eskimo's also escaped him because Allah does not like cold climates...
So this ummah that was world wide was actually restricted in size to conform with the 'known' world at that time...Allah had no geography teacher to tell him of other lands and people...That's why Pigmys are not mentioned in the Quran and neither are Apaches...None of them got the message of any glad news, because the writer did not know of them...And I thought Allah knew anything...

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written by Cerebrum123 , July 18, 2011
The reason Bahai are persecuted by Muslims is because they are told to in their "holy book". They are told the same thing of any other group of people that aren't Muslims which even seems to include some Muslims ,right? I mean why else would they be killing everybody including themselves if they weren't instructed to do so in the Quran? I have to agree with Duh about being so serious all of the time. If you are serious all of the time then you are fun none of the time. Nobody likes to be mocked ,but you can show your character in how well you take it when you are mocked. People attack Christianity all of the time ,and you don't hear the Pope or other high ranking Christian official calling for the death of those who are doing the mocking ,but that is exactly the kind of thing that happens when someone insults Islam or Mohammed. This link leads to a letter written by a Muslim to a Christian website. http://www.contenderministries...006rop.php
It seems like many Muslims think the way this writer does. Which is actually really sad.
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coming of madhi...and persecution
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROON , July 18, 2011
when mahdi is coming no one knows...when someone says he is mahdi he and his followers r persecuted.

so well put.islam has no hope.it is a lost cause.it will either destroy the world or will have to be destroyed.

no 2 ways abt it.i hope it is destroyed before world is nuked/destroyed by islam.
even islamic countires r a living hell,saudi/pakistan etc....
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written by Reed Wilson , July 18, 2011
duh_swami. It is good that you understood bulk of my post.

Now you are asking if the Eskimos and people lived in jungles etc are not included in the ummah.

Well the people of jungle had no conflicting ideology. Therefore ummah was one. No religion or ideology had reached to the jungles and the poles. Even now the missionaries are finding them as clean slate.

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Reed
written by duh_swami , July 18, 2011
Well the people of jungle had no conflicting ideology. Therefore ummah was one. No religion or ideology had reached to the jungles...

But Reed, jungle people had their own gods and religion long before the Quran was written down...Mexico and south America had their own versions of Mecca,The Island of the Sun, that is now Mexico City was one of them...It still is...For a lot of Mexicans Mexico City is Mexico...
The various religions that existed prior to Islam left a lot of evidence...But there is nothing in the history or artifacts that indicate that Aztecs, Olmec's or any other ancient culture knew anything about Allah or Mohammad or Quran or any of the 'Prophets'...This is because Allah had no knowledge of these people so Mohammad had nothinbg to say about them...
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The Quran Hoax
written by Walter Sieruk , July 18, 2011

An important question: is the Quran the Word of God or is it a fabrication of a Man. Thus, is the Quran the truth or a fiction and a hoax? The jihadists use many verses from the Quran as the Main source of justification for their violence, mayhem and murders. There, the question is clearly given on pages 145 through 157 in THE ISLAMIC INVASION by Robert Morey in which he wrote a section on the Quran with its self-contradictions. Just two of the many he cited are the following “The Quran differs on whether a day is a thousand years or fifty thousand years in God’s sight’ and “Who was first to believe? Abraham or Moses [Sura 6:14 versus 7:143]? The above is inconsistent and illogical. Further, Morey wrote about “The fact that Judaism and Christianity broke up into different sects was used in the Quran to prove that they are not of God [Suras 30:20-32. 42:13, 14]. Yet Islam has broken up into many warring sects and therefore cannot be true if the Quran is right.” Moreover, Morey in his book shows many more contradictions and absurdities in the Quran, there are and how Muhammad incorporated extra Biblical and Jewish folklore along with pre-Islamic Arabian myth and parts of Zoroastrian and Hindu stories into the Quran. Furthermore, the Muslims claim that “the Quran is the direct, literal word of God unmodified in any way by the Prophet who uttered them at the bidding of God.” Nevertheless, in the book UNVEILING ISLAM by Ergun Mehmet and Eethi Caner has shown that the Quran was modified in the following account on pages 45. “Muhammad felt the need to improve on the words of Allah, since he changed Allah’s wisdom for his own on several occasions. A hadith tells of the nonchalant emendations of Muhammad:’ On a number of occasions he [a scribe] had, with the Prophet’s consent changed the closing words of verses. For example, when the prophet had said ‘God is mighty and wise ‘ Adbollah b. Abi Sarh suggested writing down ‘Knowing and wise’ and the Prophet answered that there was no objection. Having observed a succession of changes of this type, Adbollah renounced Islam on the grounds that revelations, if from God could not be changed at the prompting of a scribe such as himself. After his apostasy he went to Mecca and joined the Qorayshites.’ Other writers reveal that later Muhammad and his people did go war with the Qorayshites and he personally killed Abdollah. Obviously Abdollah knew too much and Muhammad wanted Abdollah’s knowledge to die with him.” In conclusion, the Quran is not only a fiction, it’s also a hoax.
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Bahaism and Islam
written by The Great Buana , July 18, 2011
There is even more behind the persecution of Bahais. While muslims are not allowed to become friends with any infidels, muslims are also always in a need for a scapegoat. The simple facts that there are holy places in Israel makes them an ideal scapegoat. Scapegoatism is widespread in the islamic world: Israel, USA, Shia, Ahmadia, Jews, women, the spectre of Al Qaeda, Djinns and many other obscure spectres. The quran on the other hand is the perfect model for any muslim. This book is also so full of scapegoats and of prejudice. SAo if there were no Bahais muslim regimes would certainly find others to persecute.
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Quran - a hadith collection (persecution series)
written by Chanakya , July 18, 2011
If you know the history of Islam this is obvious. In the period when Mohammed was under the control of Khadija (610AD to about 621AD), Mohammed's god (hallucinations) came out with 70 of the Surah's of the Quran. Khadija made sure that Moahmmed only spouted tolerant things. MOhammed never forgave womenhood due to this emasculation, so woman suffered ever since in Islam.

The second phase from 623AD to 631AD was the piracy phase. In this phase MOhammed was a pirate leader (like somali pirates today). So increasingly the concept of halal things in Islam came up ie what Mohammed did was halal and what he did not was haram. Ever since the world is paying the price of rules and regulations of pirates being, considered as so called, gods command.

Finally once piracy was exhausted jihad and dhimmitude (collecting special tax jazziya and kharaj from non muslims) was insitituted. The world is paying a price of this mentality ever since as no islamic civilisation has become self sustaining. The region that was home to many civilisations build pyramids, hanging gardens, etc has produced nothing worth that valuable since occupation by islam.

When you consider this sequence it is obvious why persecution is the normative position in islam.

It is because Quran is a document that condemns 50% of humanity as deficient (women), condemns another 45 % (non muslims) as non humans and arrogates rules of piracy and warfare as the sole objective of the remainder 5% (muslim men).
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written by Reed Wilson , July 19, 2011
So duh-swami, you dont agree with Allah on following and jungle people are ignored:

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللَّـهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ ۚ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ فَهَدَى اللَّـهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لِمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

"Men belonged to a single community, and God sent them messengers to give them happy tidings and warnings, and sent the Book with them containing the truth to judge between them in matters of dispute; but only those who received it differed after receiving clear proofs, on account of waywardness among them. Then God by His dispensation showed those who believed the way to the truth about which they were differing; for God shows whom He please the path that is straight". (2:213)

Jungle people are yet to receive message, may be, and are not in ring or else it means the earliest society.

We however are on same plane on 'Christianity emerged as sect of Judaism' and 'there is one single religion since beginning'.

You ponder on relevant verses. I will also.





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REED
written by duh_swami , July 19, 2011
Jungle people are yet to receive message, may be, and are not in ring or else it means the earliest society.

Allah seems to be a little slow getting around to them...Maybe the messengers are allergic to poison darts so they stay away...Allah has had thousands of years to get his message to these jungle people and their response has always been poison darts...They don't need Allah, there is plenty of food and shelter, they don't even wear clothes...This is because they have mastered the art of poison darts and blow guns...And they did it without a Quran...
It is a fact that Allah has passed these people by, because they have learned the biggest lesson of all...We can live just fine without Allah...
We don't need Quran, and we don't need any apostles or messengers, or Prophets...we can see the negative effects of Allah on the jungle people of Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan, and others, where knowledge of Allah became known, and immediately people began killing each other...It would have been better had Allah stayed away...
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Reed
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 19, 2011
You said "We however are on same plane on 'Christianity emerged as sect of Judaism' and 'there is one single religion since beginning'." which single religion is that? I am not aware of that. Please tell us
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 19, 2011
CLEMENT. "Christianity emerged as sect of Judaism' and 'there is one single religion since beginning'." which single religion is that? I am not aware of that. Please tell us.

Dont tell me that. You know it. It is Christianity man!

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Reed please don't be funny
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 19, 2011
You said " Dont tell me that. You know it. It is Christianity man!" why not Mohammadanism. Christianity is never a religion. Judaism was never a religion.

The only common thing about the two belief systems is the relationship we have with Yahweh through his covenant with the Jews and with the Christian. The Christian covenant is called the New Testament which is predicated on the death and ressurection of Christ.

You come into this covenant relationship with God if you can have the faith of Abraham who believe God and it was counted for him for righteousness.. Believe God's plan of salvation through christ atonening death and ressurection of Christ and you shall be save. No rituala, no watching of hands and legs, no circumbulation, no ass ups, no directional prayers, no bowing down like idol worshipper is required to be saved only faith.

Do you think you understand?


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written by Reed Wilson. , July 20, 2011
Clement. Thanks. I wish to answer you in l detail little.

Christianity is derived from Christians, the supporters of Jesus Christ. The Christians were given various names by the circumcised Jews such as Rebellions of Galilee, the misguided group, Christians etc. We find the name Christians, for the first time, in book of Acts:

Acts 11:26, "and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And it came about that for an entire year they met with the church, and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

Quran calls Christians as nasara, supporters of Jesus Christ, a dignified name on basis their faithfulness to Jesus:

فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسَىٰ مِنْهُمُ الْكُفْرَ قَالَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللَّـهِ ۖ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّـهِ آمَنَّا بِاللَّـهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ

”He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous." (46) She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is. (47) And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel (48) And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (49) And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me. (50) Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (51) But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for Allah?" The disciples said, "We are your supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are submitters (muslims). (3:46-52)

Since Jesus Christ has submitted his will to the will of God, as he declared in Gospel he was also a submitant or in Arabic a Muslim.
I will not insist if Christianity is a religion or not. You may call it law or covenant. In Quran a religion is deen which means way of life. You may give a better definition. I plan to write more on this.
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Correction.
written by Reed Wilson. , July 20, 2011
Clement. I wish to answer you in little bit detail .
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Reed copys, pastes...
written by duh_swami , July 20, 2011
I will let Clement explain to you why that post was a piece of petrified bovine fecal matter...He has a bigger stake in it than I do...But crap it was just the same...
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Du_swami please go ahead and speak to Reed on my behalf
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 21, 2011
Normally I find it difficult to react when he pasted his chicken legs letters as scriptures. You and I know how foolish it is to believe those words as scriptures.

In the first place there is nothing true of those verse, Jesus never spoke in the cradle, Jesus was not a magician making birds of clay to fly them, Jesus mother was not the daughter of Aaron or Imran, there are so many garbage in that scripts that I cannot mention.

I am not saying that People have not made Religion out of Christianity. Some churches are have a lot of rituals and religious rights that one has to contend with like in any religious set up.

Those religious rituals have nothing to do with the salvation of man. It is the relationship and experience one has with Christ that matters, which is an individual matter.
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 21, 2011
duh_swami. Reed copies, pastes... and he does that so beautifully relevant.

"I will let Clement..." Clement is strong enough for Reed.
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Clement
written by duh_swami , July 21, 2011
That story is so silly, it's hard to believe anyone would believe it...It's not even a good fake representation...

...he was also a submitant or in Arabic a Muslim....

That depends entirely on the mistaken belief that Allah is God...
There are lots of Christians who submit to God and consider themselves servants, but they don't call God Allah, because Allah is not God...There were Christians in the olden days that called God Allah, but they made the same mistake...
Bible scriptures and other religious manuscripts that did not get into the Bible do not refer to God as Allah...
Reeds post is fantasy, fiction, and fraud...A twelve year old school boy could write such a story, and done a better job of it...
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 21, 2011
Clement I was answering your question. It was necessary to give text of one verse for الْحَوَارِيُّونَ
نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّـهِ

The Arabic which you hate, is a sister language of Hebrew the language of Bible and one of six languages of UN. The Arabic words appeared in Gospel are retained as such in all Bible translations.

You are 'haps the only Christian, if Christian, who is biased.
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Reed
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 21, 2011
You said "You are 'haps the only Christian, if Christian, who is biased."

I am not against the Arabic language, but I am against the concept that I must first read or understand the Arabic language before I can understand the Quran, which is supposed to be a message to all mankind. Not only the Arabic any language that claim superiority over any other language I am biased against the concept not the language.

Islam has kept many nation under the bondage of Islam for years simply because they don’t allow translation, they compel people to learn Arabic for them to understand the Quran any other interpretation is not accepted, so that Mullahs and Imam can keep on deceiving the People. If God cannot speak to me in my language then he ceases to be a God for all creation.

The true God did not reveal a book to mankind but a person the Lord Jesus who is still alive today doing wonders. The Bible is just the documentation of that revelation. To me the Quran is not scriptures.

It is better for you to use your brain to give sound and rational argument than to be quoting the Quran for me.
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To Reed Wilson
written by Archpagan , July 21, 2011
I think Baha'i' ism is only an older version of what our Duh_swami calls Wilson-ism. So, you need to study more.
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 22, 2011
Clement. About the authorship of ‘Hebrews’ you write “Whoever wrote it he was inspired by the Holy Spirit period”.

What is this Clement? Do you mean a full stop by ‘period’?

You write“Some churches are having a lot of rituals and religious rights that one has to contend with like in any religious set up”. Do you mean ‘rites’ by any chance.

You write“You come into this covenant relationship with God if you can have the faith of Abraham who believes God and it was counted for him for righteousness”.

It is real good news if it were. Only relationship will not work. It is Nepotism then.

You write “…before I can understand the Quran, which is supposed to be a message to all mankind”.

A drastic change!!

You write “It is better for you to use your brain to give sound and rational argument than to be quoting the Quran for me”.

Thanks Clement, but I don’t take the position of your counselor.

You write “The true God did not reveal a book to mankind but a person the Lord Jesus who is still alive today doing wonders. The Bible is just the documentation of that revelation. To me the Quran is not scriptures.”

Who told you that? Are you ‘using your own brain’? Jesus is still alive. Yes still. I regularly meet him. I know several technical defects of bible as book. I never point them out here. If you don’t consider Quran as scripture, I am least concerned I swear. I will never try to convince you otherwise. I am not asked to do that. I am forbidden to do that. Not joking.



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Reed
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 22, 2011
Yes I meant full stop and I meant rites, what else? Did all these gramatical correction affect the message? I sorry if it does. Actually all those your one line response to issues raise donot make sense to me.

You sound like somebody given up. I must confess you have tried to sell your product "Mohammed" very well butyour best is not good enough. The problem is that the product itself. It is not good, nomatter how you rebrand it is not sellable to the inteligent and civilised people. I guess you better disown it and leave it alone.
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written by Reed Wilson , July 24, 2011
To Amil. You write "Baha’i faith has many teachings in common with Islam, so much so that some call it “Islam light,” because, while it retains some of Islam’s principles, it also abrogates a number of outdated and counterproductive Islamic laws and practices".

Will you please spell out what are those 'outdated and counterproductive Islamic laws and practices' which Baha'i faith abrogates? Jesus also wanted to reform. He did the same by contesting heresy. He suffered persecution and a new religion Christianity emerged as sect of Judaism, which was not his mission.
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written by Reed Wilson , July 24, 2011
Dear CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR. You write " Yes I meant full stop and I meant rites, what else? Did all these gramatical correction affect the message?

They are not grammatical. Now the message is baliktad, altogether different.

"Actually all those your one line response to issues raise donot make sense to me".

Problem was mine Clement.

"You sound like somebody given up."

You win! Celebrate.

"I must confess you have tried to sell your product "Mohammed" very well butyour best is not good enough."

Who Mohammed? No Mohammed is my product. Who are 'the inteligent and civilised people'?

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Reed asked Who are 'the inteligent and civilised people'?
written by CLEMENT-THE ISLAM-WATCH PASTOR , July 24, 2011
I mean anyone who read the Quran and hadiths and can see the scam and deceit in them is an iteligent and wise person. You don't need to be a Christian to see the scam that is in the Quran. Any rational inteligent person with an average IQ will understand Mohammed's mind set on why and how he created the Quran for himself and for himself alone.
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To Reed Wilson
written by Archpagan , July 24, 2011
You repackaged Muhammad by tearing out Hadith and inventing your own rule of interpretation for Koranic verses. Believe me, under taxation law repackaging or re- branding amount to manufacture. Allah is silent on that aspect. So, we have to rely on man-made law.
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written by Reed Wilson. , July 29, 2011
Archpagan."You repackaged Muhammad by tearing out Hadith and inventing your own rule of interpretation for Koranic verses".

Ignore his interpretation outright. You have original text available.

If Quran is silent on taxation, it is fine.
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Islam v/s the Bahai Faith
written by Shiraz sabu , August 18, 2011
The author has shown his shallow understanding of both - Islam as well as the Baha'i faith. By picking up random information from the Internet about the Baha'i faith, he has taken everything he read to be true. In this he has displayed his prejudice against Islam. He wants to believe that Islam is wrong and therefore anything which is anti Islam must be right.

The author should go and research the histor of the Bahai Faith in Iran the activities of the Bahai Faith, the so called prophecies of the Bahai Faith which were "scientific", but bordered on the absurd and the take a view on what the Bahai Faith is. I suggest reading up on www.bahaiawareness.com for mor information.

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