www.islam-watch.org

This is not an islamic practice Sherlock. It's cultural!
Are you so blind that you cannot tell?
Pathetic!

Whilst you are there:
female infantacide
honour killings
are all bullshit south east Asian cultural crimes!
They have nothing to do with islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc etc
nice try to mask your prejudice and make an article!
Get back to drinking your coolaid!

Aki.

Then tell us please how the "culture" derives these ridiculous practises if not through the culture's influence from it's religion?

It's the f**king religion that "f**ks up the culture",
and THAT, my boy, IS A FACT!!

You have imams all over the world who are obviously insane, and no one in your group are doing anything about these lunatics...and the part to remember is that there are all kinds of people in islam who believe every single word these lunatic imams spout...what a joke it all is...to think the entire world could potentially be influenced by this great collective insanity just boggles the mind!

You say, honor-killings, female infanticide are a East Asian cultural crime.

I agree that female infanticide is an age-old problem of Indian society.

But as concerns honor-killings -- mostly committed upon women over suspicions of having boyfriends or committing adultery -- it's Muslims who commit 92% of such crimes in the world. I have never heard that the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans -- dwellers of East Asia -- commit such atrocious crimes, not at least in recent decades. But Muslims, whether of India, Middle East, Africa, or Europe, are the main perpetrators of this barbaric crime. How the culture of such diverse and distant peoples can have the same common cultural trend? Islam is only common thing that bind them all.

amboyduke

really? :-)
how do you explain Sikh honour killings, Hindu honour killings? (both terms are an oxymoron, I apologise for using them)
do the Sikhs and Hindus seek their inspiration from the Muslims?
Besides quote me a verse from the gg sahib, bhagvat Gita or the Quran which allows honour killings?

FACT my arse!

Get your head out of where the sun don't shine!

Oh I'm being sensored now!
That's not exactly kosher, mr administrator.
Come now mr khan! Cat got your tongue?

unless they are violence-inciting or are hateful that may lead to violence.

But our system does block certain comments -- sometimes inexplicably -- but mostly for containing vulgar or banned words, swearing, copy-pasting etc.

south east Asia! Not Asia.
That means india, Pakistan, Sri lanka, Afghanistan. These are the cultures you are addressing. Not china, Korea etc
where have you got this arbitrary figure of 92%?
Any references?
It happens, and it stinks!
Besides quote me a chapter or verse in the gg sahib, bhagvat Gita or the glorious Quran- where it says honour killings are allowed?

....a Muslim practice. Only hypocritical Muslims think otherwise.

Tanstaafl! Thank you for your contribution. You leave me overwhelmed with evidence and proof! Next time leave the talking to the grown ups!

Tanstaafl jw is right, honour or whatsoever, killing is the only universal practice for muslims worldwide. Sentiment is infested into others due to long co-habitation. Try to read some history on ancient civilizations, idiot.

India, Pakistan, Sri lanka, Afghanistan are not south east Asian countries; they are South Asian.

Honor-killing is not a South Asian or South East Asian crime alone. It occurs all over the world in Muslim communities. For your info, Jordan, Lebanon etc. are countries with very high per capita rate of honor-killings.

About 92% honor-killings by Muslims, you should consult this article by feminist author and human rights activist Phillis Chesler: "Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings" (http://www.meforum.org/2646/wo...r-killings)

The enabler of Islamic honor killings are found in sharia law...There is no Islamic penalty for killing your children or your childrens children...Honor killings happen in Islam because it is a patriarchal system where the father is required to keep Islamic norms...When his daughters violate these norms, he must act... Technically, or actually, the daughters are actually apostates for breaking away from these norms...If he does not, he will lose any honor he has with his brothers down at the mosque...He will be looked upon as an enabler of apostasy and a weak family leader...In some tribes, the elders will kill the girl if the father does not...While Muslims like to deny it, honor killings happen in Islam far to often...

female infantacide
honour killings
are all bullshit south east Asian cultural crimes!
They have nothing to do with islam,

De-nile is a river in Egypt...

The link with the Phillis Chesler article was helpful ....."58 percent of the victims were murderd for being too western"

Clearly the fingerprints of Islam are all over this phenomenon.

Since the Mughals ruled India for hundreds of years, their customs and " values" spread in every home. Although not everybody fully accustomed to Islamic values, some practices left their mark in India. Today, many beliefs and cultural practices that Indian follow and harbor, are in correspondence to those implemented by the Mughals.

Even within India today, non-Muslim Indians, however, do practice these "honor killings". Especially those who happen to come from rich background and have built a rich status in society, see it a shame if one of their family member does anything that seems wrong to them. Moreover, when it comes to relationships, many do take this step and only see this as a solution. Little do they know, that these practices and beliefs are originally of the Mughals, who were hardcore, strict and racist Muslims. Although the Mughal empire officially ended in the 18th century in India, their beliefs, practices and values still linger on.

Aki is correct in saying that the Sikh religion does not support the idea of honor killings, but it is worth noting, many Punjabis, especially those who come from rich families, primarily the "Jatts", have and do practice these honor killings. It is also worth mentioning, that although the mainstream east Punjabi community often classifies themselves as "Sikh", they really do not have much connection with Sikhism, except for the fact of having a Sikh name, due to the fact their ancestors actually being Sikhs. So if you happen to come across a honor killing led by the Punjabis, do not confuse them as Sikhs, or as a Sikh practice.

It is true that in Sikhism, relationships are frowned upon, but even if such a case is brought forward, the Sikhs do not take up weapons and start killing those involved in a relationship. Such a behavior is seen ruthless. In fact, we the Sikhs even condemn honor killings. This is what the Sikhs have fought against in history, injustices, tyrannies, and atrocities. Honor killings fall in these categories.

FAO Mr Khan
it's a good study. At best you can deduce an associative link, no way causative.
So for your article to imply otherwise, isn't exactly honest?

Your comment proves my point...yes "really"!

I don't give a shit who practices the "honour killing"...whether it's muslim, hindu, sikh, or any other group, the point is...
(and this IS A FACT, you arrogant goof),
it is the RELIGION that infects the CULTURE to such an extent that the culture commits these atrocities in the name of that specific culture's RELIGION...you IDIOT!

Hence, my quote: "It's the f**king religion that "f**ks up the culture",

Maybe you can comprehend this analogy, for the sake of arguement.
It's not the best analogy, but it does explain what I'm trying to get across.

-Let's say the priesthood in the Roman Catholic church is a type of "sub-culture" whithin the Catholic Church.
-The R.C. church FORBIDS priests to marry, although thre is NO scriptural support in the Bible to make that rule.
-The priest "sub-culture" starts having sex with little boys, women, other adult men, what ever.
-They get away with doing this until they are caught, so you could say, it was the "RELIGIONS" fault for instilling a rule for priests that is humanly impossible for them to follow with any consistency, within the culture of the priesthood.
-It's the RELIGION that screws them up and the RELIGION must share the responsibility of priests doing those "forbidden" things, within the CULTURE of the PRIESTHOOD.

I could come up with a better one, but I don't have time.

Also, the current bullshit that is happening world wide thanks to islam demonstrates beyond any doubt that the "religion" is a total morally bankrupt group. Let's see you defend all the garbage that your islam is fomenting all over the world?
I don't care whether it is cultural, or not...the proof is in the fruits of their beliefs, and the fruits are violence, intolerance, bullying, killing, not only "kafirs" but killing each other...indefensible.

Also, since you seem to come off on here like you have all the answers, what are YOU doing to change the crap that is "infecting" your version of islam?
Let's see some concrete ideas from "The Oracle Known As Aki"...?
Wha-da-ya-say?
Let's have it...give us the straight goods on how you are going to change islam?
How are you going to get rid of all the crap done in the name of your beloved religion that you say has no founding in islam?

I can hardly wait....GO!!!

amboyduke

Aki - why can't Allah stop this "cultural" infestation? Has s/he no holy spirit to transform ? Help me out here

Several weeks ago, I had a real rock-em/sock-em discussion with a muslim from Egypt on another site.
We went toe to toe, nose to nose for over a week.
He said he was a law student in Cairo, and for reasons which I won't get into on here, I believe he really was.

I learned a lot from that fellow, and he learned a lot from me.
We actually grew to respect each other, somewhat, over the course of our banter.

The one, and ONLY point we BOTH agreed upon, was what I said in my above post: "It's the f**king religion that "f**ks up the culture",

Although my exact quote to him was: "It's the religion that f**ks up the people".
Same thing.
We parted amicably and he had some great ideas re: bringing islam into the contemporary 21st century setting, and I wished him well, but his task was most daunting, to say the least.

amboyduke, you can not conclude, without proof, that religion is bad, or religion screws up a culture. First of all, you should take into consideration the fact that Sikhs do not promote, practice or believe in honor killings. Don't try to include Sikhs into the same category as the Muslims, or whoever. First, go learn about the Sikh religion and the history. If you study the history of the Sikhs, you won't find a single account which states Sikhs took any innocent life, that includes honor killings. Yes, they fought and killed the Mughals, that is because the Mughals were going around killing innocent civilians, so the war was for peace.

Second, the examples you have given about a priest doing so and so, of course it is hereditary and can never be justified. If such a case occurs, we can never support it. And yes, everyone, including the priests, be allowed and should be married so such cases are unlikely. And I also agree that these honor killings could be more of a cultural thing. The illeterate ones, and the ones who do not want to think free and rather be close minded, are the ones likely to commit honor killings.

If a Sikh was to commit a so-called "honor" killing, the Sikh community would condemn such a person, and such an act would be considered "un-Sikh". Sikhism does not promote such acts, and we would punish such a "Sikh" who would do such an act of shame. So don't include us into the category of Muslims, because these are the same people we fought against for centuries because of the tyranny, bloodshed, injustice, hate, and crimes they carried out.

Jaspreet Singh

Jaspreet:

I didn't say any such thing...our boy Aki did.
I was just referring to his statement in his post.
I happen to like Hindu's and Sikhs very much.

My point is this:
When you look at the big picture...really LOOK at it...religion is, in one way or another, responsible for almost every mess this world has endured...
maybe it isn't "religion" perse, but humanities selfish interpretation of religion to suit it's personal interests or ends.

Where is the real "truth"?
Nobody in this reality seems to know.
It does seem to be able to control humanity through fear and threats. Religion, I mean.

How messed up is that?

Dear Amboyduke, you have written:

"Where is the real "truth"?
Nobody in this reality seems to know.
It does seem to be able to control humanity through fear and threats. Religion, I mean."

Now let us discuss this. First and foremost, you have put forth a query asking what is the real "truth"?

According to Sikhism, the "Truth" really is God, because we believe He (God) has always been present, even before there was any life, even before there was any Sun, even before there was the Earth, and He is ever-present, meaning He is free of death. But I am not going to sit here and give people a lesson of Sikhism, that is not the intention here.

You have also written:

"It does seem to be able to control humanity through fear and threats."

Sikhism does not support this. Nobody in Sikhism "forces" religion into anyone, not even their family members. While it is true that children of Sikh households learn about the values and practices of the Sikhs, such as the prayers, they are not forced to follow it. No one beats them for missing a prayer. If a Sikh chooses to leave Sikhism and go astray, no one in Sikhism goes after that person, that "how dare you?"

Such fears and threats are seen in Muslims. It is the "Muslim children" (quotes because they don't follow it from heart) who fear their parents would beat them, or their respect in society would be lost if they do something "anti-Muslim". It is the Muslims who promote violence and plant fear in other people's lives. It is the Muslims who cause destruction, and they have been doing it for centuries. The finger should be pointed at them. It should be noted, Islam is not a religion, rather a destruction to religion, and it is the Muslims who have ruined the image and definition of religion. It has always been them. Just take the example from the Mughals, and everything else makes sense.

I think Aki is right in saying that honour killing is not specific to a particular religion. It is a malaise that is quite common in South Asia across all communities. However that does not absolve islam and muslims of denigrating women as mere 'properties' of loot and 'sexslaves meant for exploitation and to be discarded at will with a simple pronouncement of 'talaq'. Islam has actually institutionalised and religiously sanctioned such evil practices as just. That is not the case with other religions ,especially, polytheistic ones that revere even a female deity ,which is not possible in the male chauvinistic monotheistic cults of islam,christianity and judaism ,where the female is supposed to be the cause of all sins.

If we go into history, we read that Muslim merchants came to India and set up Islamic colonies through marriage with local women. Those local women married Muslims and converted to Islam rather freely as it seems. The local religion and culture was not so jingoistic in those days. But Islam has prohibited and prevented its women from marrying non-Muslims from its very birth. This Islamic intolerance has certainly acted as inducements for the non-Muslim Indians to become more jingoistic like Muslims about their faith and culture. It's bound to happen in any people anywhere. Tolerance induce tolerance, intolerance induce intolerance. It's natural to human instinct.

Most honor-killings in India occur over young girls falling in love with men of different faiths. We must remember that Muslim girls -- thanks to the terror and fear their communities instill in them -- rarely fall in love with men of different faiths. Hindu and Sikh girls are much more prone to falling in love with boys of different faiths, often of Islam. If Muslim girls fall in love with non-Muslim men at the same frequency as do Hindu or Sikh girls --- the quantum of Muslim honor-killings would be much much higher. And still per capita honor-killing in India is much much higher amongst Muslims than amongst Sikhs and Hindus.

You have got to brush up on your geography too, besides mannerism.

Probably you spent too much time learning those areas where the sun never shines in,

First let me point out there is NOTHING in the Quran that says anything about the practice of honour killing, it is not Islamic. Even if you were to look at Hadith etc which is also not truley Islamic, it also says nothing about this. The fact that Muslims prefer to marry muslims is not different than Jews who by an overwhelming majority only marry other Jews. Your use of the word jingoistic is not correct, not that I am an english major, but that would be applied to a persons country i.e. ultra patriotism or nationalism.

You make a huge leap in saying that Tolerance induces Tolerance, intolerance induces intolerance and thus somehow try and connect this back to honour killing and blame it on Islam. It appeast you are trying to portray honour killngs as a barbaric institution inherent to all things Islam. This stereotype attempts to establish the archetype of "all things civi in the West and "all things barbaric" in the East. Thus covertly implying that other religions or the West are free from such acts of violence. Using your logic one could say that since domestic violence has risen over 65% in the West since the start of the recession, that the Wests problems are that their men blame their women for the loss of revenue, ie. Revenue Beatings. ? I think you can see to label a mass of population that way is wrong.

Your example in India leaves out an very important fact, whether on purpose or on error I cannot discern from your writing. In India there are thousands of "honour Killings" but you should mention that a large portion of these are more appropriately "Dowry Killings". Where the womens dowry is considered to be insufficient thus the barbaric reaction of so called honour killing. This is related more to the populations belief that the woman is property rather than a human being" . In addtion in South America there are also thousands of deaths each year, there they label them "Crimes of Passion" but they are what you say are honour killings.

This so called practics of honour killings goes across cultures and across religions. Most times you will find women in the family complicit in this action as well as the community which strengthens the concept of women as property and the perception that violence against family members is a family and not a judicial issue.

Note from the Quran , just for clarity "Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden" or "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, whether male or female, you are members, one of another" These claerly point out any killing like you mention is prohibited in Islam.

The major reasons for what we call honor-killing today in the Muslim community are: fornication, adultery, for loving/marrying a kuffar man, and apostasy.

Apostasy or adopting kuffar way of life, a Muslim woman's marrying a kuffar, adultery are banned in Islam -- deserving of capital punishment. Fornication is supposed to be punished by 100 lashes in the public glare -- which is no better than killing the person and relieved her of a life of shame and indignity.

Honor killing is only one spoke of the Islamic wheel of evil...It does not matter if it is in Quran or not...It happens a lot in Islam just the same...That it happens in other religions/cultures also is tu quoque, and besides the point...Is there anything in Quran that specifically says 'Thou shalt not honor kill'? It may be that Islam does not encourage honor killing, but Islam does nothing to prevent it either...Honor killing survives in Islam because it is a patriarchal system giving the male, father in this case, absolute power over women in general, but in the family explicitly...If Allah was doing his job, there would be no honor killings by Muslims period...It would be serious haram...But Allah has given absolute power over women, wives and daughters to husbands and men in general...Quran 4:34 for starts...
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, no Muslim man is psychologically equipped to handle absolute power adequately. No one is, and it was a mistake to give men that much power to begin with...In the west the killing of daughters or wives over 'honor', is almost non existent...I know of no cases where this has occurred with Christians or atheists... Certainly no Wiccans or Mormons subscribe to it, and neither do the American Indian tribes...Women are mistreated around the world, not just in Islam, but Islam has a penchant for it under the disguise of justice...If Muslims are capable of inflicting severe punishments on women as prescribed in Quran and hadith, it is not a stretch of the imagination for them to include honor killing in their bag of power trips...Advocating violence at every turn, is one of the things that makes Islam evil...It infects an otherwise normal mind, and opens the door for evil possibilities...

Well...as usual...like every muslim challenged on offing solutions instead of making excuses....Aki's silence is deafening.

Also, vbv.
You no doubt are correct about honour killing being more prevelent in South Asia, but WHAT would you say is the predominent religion of South Asia?

Also, it doesn't really matter if honour killing is not specific to a particular religion...as I pointed out in my other posts, it is the RELIGION that makes/allows/forces/threatens/controls/frightens it's adherants into doing sure crazy things...i.e. honour killings etc.

Mr. Malem, passion crimes are of a different nature than honour killings. Passion crimes are commited by individuals who can't handle the strong emotions of jealousy and rejection. And they might be cultural to some extend but those crimes are not rooted in any ideology.

Essential to honour killings is that they have this typical islamic element of blackmail. The signal is - don't break away from our rules or you will pay with your life - and they are often committed in cold blood. An other caracteristic is that perpetrators don't see themselves as criminals but as defenders of the faith.

You see the difference? Islam is a BLACKMAIL CULT. From day one in the islamic calender it was force and blackmail.

You are wrong when you say that Christianity blames Eve for the fall of man. The Bible says that Eve was deceived ,and while she was the first to eat the fruit Adam knew better.Adam is the one who talked directly to God and was told directly by God NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.Adam was considered the first human representative ,and the one responsible for the fall. That's why Jesus is called the second Adam ,because He has paid for everyone's sin. He took the penalty for us and acted as the second ,and last representative.

Every time I hear about "honor" killing my heart breaks a little more. I don't even know of anything that can be done to really stop it from happening ,or at least slow it down.The older I get the worse the world seems to get. I don't understand why some people can't understand that we live in a fallen world ,especially when stuff like this happens.

Malem as usual ,obfuscates ,confuses,twists,evades,deceives by his meaningless rant. Malem ,you must present evidence or provide some data. Everybody here knows that countries like INDIA,USA,EUROPE, being open societies,based on secular rule and laws,constitution has elaborate machinery to do justice or bring out the truth. ISLAM,ISLAMIC societies,ISLAMIC countries being closed,secretive societies, based on official ISLAMIC THEOCRACY, highly discriminatory ISLAMIC rules,SHARIA,HUDDOOED laws, apostacy,blasphemy punished by death - in other words ISLAM rules by fear,terror. I understand ,that if at all honor killings are there in INDIA, dont forget there are more than ,150 million moslems and SIKHS living. Not only laws are there to punish ,but also media is free to
expose ,denounce and decry,as well as public. But the public and media are helpless and dont write/dont dare , when it happens amongst /in moslem community. Many of the negative aspects were/are adopted in INDIA ,during their long 800 years subjugation/slavery of INDIA/INDIANS . NOw, I strongly urge INDIA to liberate from ISLAMIC SHACKLES. NOW , INDIA is a progressive with peace,freedom,democracy,equality,equal laws ,equality of justice. But ISLAM/MOSLEMS are blocking ,opposing all such secular laws,rules. The monstrocity of ISLAM becomes evident when INDIA publishes or categerize the crimes as religion wise . Malems writings in his 4 th para of his post are to confuse,deceive all the readers. Just study the ISLAMIC societies,ISLAMIC countries, ISLAMIC treatment of women by Moslem men according to ISLAM.

just so busy with ramadan starting!
You'll keep. I will get back to you! Keep the conversation on ice!

Something else I just want to add...

A person can tell whether or not certain posters on here have any semblance of intelligence.
By saying this, it doesn't mean I don't value or respect all the opinions forthcoming on here. Well...some are hard to "respect", but those posters have every right to their opinion.

You seem to be an educated, somewhat intelligent sort of lad.
How and the hell can someone who has a brain and can obviously think for himself, support, be a member of, practice the crazy nonsense that is islam?

That flabbergasts me...totally.
How can bright individuals be members of such a group...???
It's laughable...totally laughable.

I'm getting ready, too....
I'm having a delicious beer, petting my old dog and eating a big rack of pork ribs....

paints, it becomes islamic art,
designs, it becomes islamic architecture;
marries, it becomes islamic nikah,
shits, it becomes islamic defecation.

washes his cock, it becomes islamic ablution,
bla, bla blas, it becomes islamic prayers;
adjusts his lunch, it becomes islamic fasting,
ther, why doesn't such killing become islamic honor killing?

???????

In the light of the information fron the above article it needs to be repeated once again what Brigtte Gabriel wrote in her book THEY MUST BE STOPPED on pages 175,176. Which reads " Honor killings are executed by slitting the victims throat, hatcheting them, stabbing, burning them to death, decapitation, BULLUTS TO THE HEAD AND CHEST, or by any other means imaginable." and "Honor killings have also come to the West thanks to the rise of islamic Immigration."

its really sad to know the above reality. may Allah give us the power to learn quran education so that mankind may understand.

may Allah give us the power to learn quran education so that mankind may understand.

I thought the Quran was clear...what's the problem?

Well, it is clear...clear rubbish...The sooner mankind understands that the better...

I dont surprise of such prejudice reporting. All of the world know how much honor killing is being in practice in Europe, USA, GREAT BRITIAN.
YES just visit the websites of these non Muslim Countries showing and incouraging and spreading porno sex, sex with mothers, sex with sisters, sex with daughters etc. Anyone tell me what this relate to ??? wether it relates to religion, culture, or Ethics. IS THAT NOT HONOR KILLING.

idont get why people would do such horrible things to their family. i am not a sikh but i have just read this story for my homework and it makes me mad that someone could do that and how his family wiatch him do it.