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Does the Koran’s Wife-Beating Command Inspires Muslim Men to Hit Their Wives?

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Chapter 4, verse 34 of the Koran reveals that Mohammed believed that husbands should be in charge of women, and should hit them if they refuse to do as told by their husbands.

Muslim men, who are used to reading the Koran regularly, can hardly escape the command of this verse to beat their wives?

The1999 US State Department report on human rights in Jordan said in section 5:

"Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her", so clearly 4:34, which, because it is in "The Koran", has to be part of Sharia law, does influence some modern Muslim men to hit their wives, which explains why the Islamic Fiqh Academy, a group of Islamic scholars that was created by the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (the alliance of 57 mostly, and partly Muslim states) refused to criticise wife beating in its of course Sharia compliant fatwa on domestic violence:

"The Fatwa establishes a definition of "Domestic Violence", which provides that violence by one family member against another contravenes the objectives of Sharia law. Some critics have noted that the definition does not prohibit a man from raping his wife and upholds the right of a husband to beat his wife, so long as the beating conforms with Sharia law.

"...The provisions of the Fatwa also implicitly uphold other aspects of Sharia law that are contrary to women's rights, such as requiring a woman to repay her bride-price if she divorces her husband for excessive beatings."

Note that the fatwa says that women, who divorce their husbands because of "excessive beatings", are required to repay the dowry price at which they were sold to their husbands.

You can read that fatwa at the bottom of this OIC webpage.

Mohamed Kamal Mustafa, the Muslim cleric, who was given a 15 month suspended jail sentence and a fine by a Spanish court for writing a book, which advocated wife beating, was also clearly inspired by 4:34, as he said in his defence that his book had interpreted passages from the Koran.

Falah al-Hujeri, a United Arab Emirates Islamic court judge, and Dr. Ahmed al-Kubaisi, the head of Sharia studies at Baghdad University, were also no doubt inspired by that verse, as they have both said that Sharia law allows husbands to hit their wives.

A Muslim religious foundation, run by the Turkish Government, issued a book in 2000, which also said that husbands could beat their wives, and as such institutions do not say things like that because they were inspired by a non-Muslim source, it should be fairly obvious by now what inspired them to make that statement.

It should also be fairly obvious by now why the chairman of a Canadian Muslim group said this year that husbands could use force upon their wives.

There is nothing new about Muhammad's pro-wife beating views influencing husbands to beat their wives either. Muhammad's child wife 'Aisha said in a "Sahih al-Bukhari" hadith (7:72:715) that in the 7th century, Muslim wives were beaten more often than non-Muslim wives:

"Narrated 'Ikrima: Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'Abdur Rahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women [the Muslim women]. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!"

So, it would appear that for the last 14 centuries, Muhammad's views have inspired Muslim men to hit their wives and exactly for that reason the scale of wife-beating by Muslim men in some countries is so horrifying.

For example, as this CNN article points out, the UN Development Fund for Women says that nearly 90% of Afghan wives are beaten by their husbands.

An Egyptian news website cites a study, which showed that 80.4% of Egyptian men, and 66% of Egyptian women think it is acceptable for a husband to beat his wife if she speaks to another man, which proves how much Egyptian women have been subjugated over the centuries – thanks to the "Koran" and Sharia law inspired violence. Therefore, it should not surprise anybody that Egyptians voted overwhelmingly for Islamist parties in the recent election.

This MSNBC article cites a Saudi university study, which found that 3 out of 4 Saudi wives had been beaten by their husbands in the previous 3 years.

This Amnesty International article cites a Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences study, which found that over 90% of Pakistani wives had been kicked, slapped, beaten, or sexually abused by their husbands.

So, the claim that Islam was first to give women their rights and dignity is false.

It is quite possible that the presence of large and growing numbers of Muslims in the West will influence some non-Muslim husbands to beat their wives, as violent Islamic practices have clearly spread to non-Muslim cultures, which were under Muslim rules in the past.

For example, most people think that honour violence upon women is a specifically Muslim problem, which also occur in Hindu and Sikh cultures, who were ruled in the Indian Subcontinent by Muslims for about a millennium until the British Raj deposed them. The practice also occurs among Greeks, who were ruled by the Muslim Turks from 15th to the 19th centuries, and among the Spaniards and Portuguese among Latin Americans, whose parent cultures, Spain and Portugal, were ruled by Muslim Arabs from 8th to the 15th centuries, as well as among Italians, some of whom were ruled by Muslim Arabs for a shorter period.

The Pakistani-Peruvian axis theory, coined by late American historian Professor Carroll Quigley, argues that many peoples outside the Muslim Arab world have been influenced by its culture. The fact that “honour crime” exists only in those non-Muslim cultures that were once under the Muslim rule for a substantial period gives evidence to support Prof. Quigley’s theory of Islamic cultural influence on non-Muslim cultures.

Comments (268)Add Comment
0
Islamic Euphemism
written by Gnostic , December 04, 2011
I cannot wait to read the coming excuses and euphemisms from the islamists. That islam is in real the only religion that really recognises the rights of women and so on. Just the opposite of what is real written in the quran. Really, I cannot wait!
0
Where's the resident liar?
written by Guy Macher , December 04, 2011
I needed a laugh so I was hoping that the resident liar would have pontificated about how Islam respects women! Could it be that he can't spin a lie to cover the truth that Islam is pure evil?
0
The truth is, symbolic...
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 04, 2011
This article very well shows that you people only understand the very basic meanings in islam, referring to this sentence
"Chapter 4, verse 34 of the Koran reveals that Mohammed believed that husbands should be in charge of women, and should hit them if they refuse to do as told by their husbands."

now, if you do understand what it really means, you would know, that the husband would hit her in a manner i would call "symbolic" which is gently and definitely painlessly, striking very softly with a "sewak", which is as i said "symbolic" this striking wouldnt even make a little infant feel anything, and the purpose of this is to convey sadness, but other than that, the beatings in the modern Arab world, are the same as that in the modern western world, beatings not explained by any reason, except for men's natural ideology of being supreme in strength/right, in other words ( mans stupidity and lack of discipline/self restraint), and it is very well known among us (the arab world) that female - related - violence is much more prominent in the western world....

Dear Gnostic, I await your reply, and please, if you will, read some Islamic articles about this manner too, so that you can see both claims, and judge by your self.
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@Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by M. A. Khan, editor , December 04, 2011
It is not so important whether beating is hard or soft. Yes, it is more symbolic. Sometimes, people can be beaten and they may still feel proud.

In a marriage, husband and wife should equal in rights and dignity. Giving husband the right to beat his wife destroys the wife's dignity and equality. That's where lies the main problem of Islam's wife-beating command.

Just think about it the other way. If the Quran gives only your wife the right to beat you, how would you feel? It's not the pain of beating that will matter so much to you, but the humiliation and indignity caused to you when she beats you that would matter most.
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Re: Ahmed
written by Gnostic , December 04, 2011
Your answer is just what I predicted in the first comment. How about beating people like your for such an answer? Only symbolic, of course. In fact you can see how blasphemic the quran really is. If there is any blaphemy then there is no book more blasphemic than the quran. It teaches that god is teaching that men shpuld behave like dirty little cowards and beat their wifes. And it is a shame for all humans that there are still people like you defending this.
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@ M. A. Khan, editor
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 04, 2011
@M.A.Khan

I wrote my comment as 2 comments for reaching max size.

1/2
Thank you for speaking so politely sir/Madam, and I assure you, I am not just arguing to prove a case, I am talking through my deep belief, which was the reason I embraced Islam in the first place.

Now what I wish to say in response is that, first of all, just as in Christianity and other religions, man is the high authority, not because he is greater, but only because, any ship needs one captain, and the God who created us, gave each gender greater power/rights in different fields, and as you find mothers blessed with limitless love from their children(due to their natural love, patience, and mercy), that very few fathers can ever experience, so does man get the control of the ship, for he holds much greater strength and the ability to physically and mentally experience pressure and long times of hardships while withholding his duties and obligations


and to be clear, i myself, would never ever consider hitting my wife in any circumstances, but life isnt always perfect, and things dont always go the way you want, so for that exact reason, and only in that exact case, can a man use this method to discipline his wife, not as a father disciplining his child, but as a person who cares to the person who cares for, and my proof for this, is that beating used is painless, but holds much meanings and emotions

sir/madam you said "destroys the wife's dignity and equality" I totally agree with you about this point in the general case, but may I remind you, that this is not for everyday/week common problems, on the contrary, this is for very large problems, that will probably cause a divorce / children getting lost in between and similar (family destroying ) events,


Islam deals a little different with problems than most of the other methods, Islam works on creating a better solution rather than negating the problem (in cases having that possibility ) that is,

as an example

In Islamic law, a thief is not imprisoned, but his hand is cut, ofcorse this rule was only ever executed when people had the ability to get money, but preferred stealing, this was not intended to be used in times when people stole because there was no other solution, *(like in the days of Omar Ibn el Khatab, for reference),

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@M.A.Khan, Editor, contd...
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 04, 2011
@M.A.Khan

I wrote my comment as 2 comments for reaching max size.

2/2


if you cut off one mans hand, (again, in the case of a community with enough means to acquire legal money, and have people witness them, the rates of theft and crimes in general will drop to the ground, but if you perform the practice we do all over the world, the case is like the following, you get a criminal, lock him up in jail for a few years, you destroy his life, lock him up from the people he/she loves, if he is weak, he will suffer from the other criminals, and finally, by the time he leaves jail, he has turned into a monster, and it is very obvious that the amount of people who leave jail better than when they got in, is a very low percentage, so the equation is

Cut one hand - Save hundreds of lives, souls, and least importantly money
Imprison one person - Create a recurring loop that keeps getting bigger of people getting madder, at the end, loss of Lives, Souls, sense of safety and least importantly, money.



I used the example to demonstrate what I mean, similarly in marriage, instead of divorce, and hardship for the children, less damaging solutions (can be used), and again Islam gives solutions to different types of people, you can (gently) hit your wife if their is a crucial need, but you can choose not to, it depends on what type of person you are really, and at what period of time you are in,


in short, the lesser of two evils

but generally

please do differentiate between Islam as a belief and practice, and between the people who practice it


I am not sure if what I wrote is clear, but please do point out any unclear points, thank you

Awaiting your Response.
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RE Gnostic
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
I did not notice your reply earlier
I thought my point was not clear, but seems it is not, I am not justifying beating women, I am only explaining what Islam meant and the reason it was done, and how all the stupid men in the world that beat their wives knowingly abuse its peaceful intent.

but in all cases, I believe Allah will will punish them for what they do.

I will not reply to your comment, to your rage, or to your insults.
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was clear* correction to language error line 2 in previous reply
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
was clear* correction to language error line 2 in previous reply
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1 more point
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
I thought I should add this...
The "sewak" which is the tool used in the previous posts, is a wooden rod, of length about 7 cm, diameter less than 1 cm, and is weak and fragile, it is used for cleaning teeth... in other words, it can not inflict pain even if you try hard....
0
Dirty little Cowards!
written by Gnostic , December 05, 2011
I have absolutely no problem with calling men who beat their wifes or other women dirty little cowards. Do you have a problem with that? It seems that islam does since it is the only religion I know that explicitely allows men to behave in that manner. Nobody in the world can deny that. The quran encourages men to behave like dirty little cowards who even beat their wifes who cannot defend themselves. Period.
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Re: 1 more point
written by Gnostic , December 05, 2011
Here is another 1 more point and this not out of topic: Everywhere in the quran we can
read that it is a book written in a clear language and easy to understand. So is there anybody who does not understand what beating ones wife means? Must we translate it? Perhaps violence against women? Or domestic violence against women?
0
Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by Dwito , December 05, 2011
With your long description above, that you meant, hitting is not hitting, its hugging. that husbands do worldwide without order or instruction. then why Allah meant to hit, instead of hug?
0
egoistic behavior
written by Asian observer , December 05, 2011
When the holy book had given men the right to beat their wives, many men, esp the babaric ones feel egoistically like lords and beat their wives at the slightest offences as if their wives are their slaves.
0
@ gnostic
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
Any man that hits his wife should be called the worst of names, but again, you do not relate to what I mean

what i am saying is exactly this
what Islam meant is one thing

What people do is totally different

and for ur 2nd comment, yes Quran is clear, but in Islam, we must always learn from both the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Mohammded PBUH, trust me, if you search well enough, you will find out what I am talking about

I have nothing more to add for now.


0
Ahmed Hamed agamy- Not with Christianity please
written by Clement-Islam-Watch Pastor , December 05, 2011
Did I hear you say Islam is just like Christianity in placing man above the woman? I greed with the concept of position theory thing in the family, but I Don't understand about the Quran instructing men to beat their wives. There is nothing like that in the Bible. The position of women in Islam goes beyond just being subject to man, in a mutual leader- led relationship, but are ,so be mean that they are no better than domestic animal.

Listen to these Islamic scriptures on women

Tabari IX:113"Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."
Tabari I:280"Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."
Qur'an 4:11"Allah directs you in regard of your Children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.... These are settled portions ordained by Allah."
0
@dwitto
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
Well it is because you do need anyone to tell you what you should do when your okay with your wife, but the purpose of this specific instruction is to help you decide what to do in times of crisis between you and your wife, you know, extreme conditions? I know as a matter of fact that in these situations, that any man, would probably beat his wife up, but in this case hear, Allah only told us to do something symbolic, which does not hurt her, if you still think it means beating/hurting, then never mind...
0
Re: Ahmed
written by Gnostic , December 05, 2011
Now even you were just admitting that you can not really rely on the words of the quran which were written by god according to islam. Therefore, you cannot rely on god but only on certain hadith which were written by humans. Do you think that the quran is helpful if you can use it only by twisting its understanding? Come on! I do not think that you are so stupid!
0
WIFE BEATING
written by VRM , December 05, 2011
Truth can't be drowned in the ocean of words(lies). The Quranic command is clear, beat your wife. That is it. All these ridiculous explanations are nothing more than a futile effort to wash the dirty spot. A careful scrutiny of ahadith clearly shows that muhammad was not opposed to severe wife beating. Fatwas of modern day middle eastern clerics show the same.
But, the question remains the same, how wife beating can be excepted in whatever circumstance, even if the wife is at fault? And what if the husband is guilty of the same folly? But, what can you expect from the apologists, other than ridiculous, disgusting, sugar coated lies.
0
Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by Dwito , December 05, 2011
Well it is because you do need anyone to tell you what you should do when your okay with your wife.........
Sir, i'm bit confused. did you mean "Well it is because you do NOT need anyone to tell you what you should do when your okay with your wife" OR "Well it is because you do need SOME(any)one to tell you what you should do when your okay with your wife."

Whatever may be, it is not a right thinking to let anyone get involved in regular family interactions. Pl. behave matured.

but the purpose of this specific instruction is to help you decide what to do in times of crisis between you and your wife, you know, extreme conditions?

In extreme condition of such crisis, [removed]hitting) is also extreme. so your soft version is a fallacy.

I know as a matter of fact that in these situations, that any man, would probably beat his wife up.
if you know so certainly, why are you dithering to confirm? you know, out side of Islam, which we mean educated civilized world husbands don't hit wives, they quarrel, live in separation, go to diverse, but don't fight physically. Off course you don't know this world.

Allah only told us to do something symbolic, which does not hurt her. if you still think it means beating/hurting, then never mind...

Pl. go to ask your community wives what do they think.
0
I said what now?
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
"Now even you were just admitting that you can not really rely on the words of the quran which were written by god according to islam. "

that couldn't be any more false, god commanded us in the Quran to learn from the teachings of Prophet Mohammed PBUH

There is a verse in the Quran itself that says "إن هو إلا وحي يوحى" which means " It is no less than inspiration sent down to him" and many other verses that command us to obey Prophet Mohammed PBUH, follow his teachings, and that Allah is the one that guided him to those things
0
Re: Ahmed
written by Gnostic , December 05, 2011
Oh, I see! You are one of the PBUH-Guys! I suggest you think that PBUH is one of the great contribution from islam to humanity. But your assertions are false. Muslims do regard the quran as their holy book and their main source of law. So any primitve guy who beats his wife might refer to the quran and claim that he is not guilty at all. Thats fact. But it makes no sense to talk to people like you. Your are from the PBUH-party and this means that you are resistant against any logocal argument. Good bye!
0
Dwitto
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
Yes sry, I meant "Not need"
I would also like to notify you that I am only 20 years old, I did not get married yet, but please remember that I have a mother, sisters, and soon a wife, "Off course you don't know this world." I find this really offending, what do you think we are ? living in tents ? torturing our wives all day for fun? Sir, you have a very bad image about us, like, talking about myself, I am studying my guts out, to become a successful Engineer, have enough money to support a house, with a loving family, then trying to start some good projects, for raising money for charity, thats almost what my Life is about, and I am not saying this except to represent to you a sample of my background, maybe you would understand that I am not a barbarian or a bloodthirsty "Arab" or something....
0
Women and the Quran
written by Walter Sieruk , December 05, 2011
As Robert Spencer wrote in his book THE POLITTCALLY INCORRECT GUID TO ISLAM on page 77. "As long as men read and believe the Quran, women will be despised, second cless citizens." That say a lot about this subject in itself.
0
To Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by lw1 , December 05, 2011
Iranian and Kurdish Women's Organisation requested information about 'honour incidents' in UK under freedom of information rules.
UK police recorded at least 2823 so-called 'honour attacks' last year, figures from 39 out of 52 forces show --nearly 500 incidents were in London.
Among the 12 forces also able to provide figures from 2009, there was an overall 47% rise in such incidents.
Honour attacks are punishments on people, usually women for acts deemed to have brought shame on their family.
How can your interpretation of Quran help the women among these people?
0
@ Ahmed Hamed Agamey
written by Archpagan , December 05, 2011
What you have posted here is the typical of an Islamic apologist. Koran prescribed wife-beating on the presumption that husband is always right in case of conjugal disputes, which is grossly incorrect. The husband can be equally at fault. He may squander money on alcohol or other woman etc.

Anyway, I am in the habit of beating my wife, for her nagging habits. But, every time I hit her the blow lands on her buttock and her nagging goes on increasing. Would you please suggest an Islamic remedy please ?

Cutting off hand of thieves is called retributive justice which is as old as human civilization. Babylonian King Hammurabi encoded that concept in 2100 B C E. Koran has ossified that barbaric code. Mahatma Gandhi said - 'An eye for eye will make mankind blind'.

It is heartening to learn that you are going to become an engineer. I look forward to see you as both a civil and civilized engineer. Remember, in our estimation your country Malaysia is no better than 'Shoddy Barbaria'.
0
@lw1
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
First, thank you for your respectful comment, you did not use any verbal insults like the ones before you...

Second, It is not my interpretation alone :), this is what Knowledgeable Muslims said since prophet Mohammed PBUH, this is the rule of how to treat Muslims in ISLAM

but just like terrorism, when a few number of people do something, it sticks to every one,


I am sure your thinking, this isnt few, but actually it is, when compared to the 1.6 billion (and increasing) Muslims in the world.

Hitting wives and such things in the way people do it right now, is the opposite of what Islam teaches, Islam is a religion of mercy and compassion, this can be seen through so many things


So respectable sir, Islam did not create this violence, it limited it
and using these statistics, I can prove my point

http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html


so again, Islam did not create violence, it simply told you, that when things get real bad,
you should first advise them

2nd, Islamic scientists have said several translations of this part of the verse, but generally, it means, stay away from them, some of them, said don't sleep next to them, some others said, sleep next to them with your backs towards them and do not talk to them, and another group of scientists said that you should not have intercourse with them

3rd, if neither of the previous worked, then you should do the third, which is again, the non-painful gentle striking with a "sewak", which is again symbolic.


now referring to statistics I posted a few lines back, violence exists in both our worlds, and that is not because of Islam, it is because of Man overusing their powers unjustly, and so people blame it in our case on Islam, although it is extremely clear that Islam did not say that.
0
@lw1
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 05, 2011
My friend, for some reason I felt your reply was not just to fire back at me, I felt that it was for seeking the truth we all are looking for


I found this video on the internet randomly while I was searching, I think it was on an anti- Islam website or something, but if you think of it clearly, and remembered that this is meant to be the last resort, and that in the modern world, men of all classes/religions/countries do that, which again, you saw through the statistics I posted, you will find this to be the most fair of all


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJNU2xx83nw&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wp3Eam5FX58


please watch this with an open heart and mind, you are free to not believe it, but please there is no point of conversations and proving, if you receive information you should think of it :)


and again, please note that, many men will mix their animal instincts with religion, cause they are sexists.

awaiting your reply lw1
0
Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by Clement-Islam-Watch Pastor , December 06, 2011
You said "and many other verses that command us to obey Prophet Mohammed PBUH, follow his teachings, and that Allah is the one that guided him to those things "

That is the point You believe that those command in the Quran and example of the prophets in the hadith are from Allah and must be obeyed, but we see nothing godly and good example from the Prophet of Islam that a rational being should obeyed except people that are brainwatched and made as morons who have no free will of their own.

Listen to this scriptures from your Allah

Qur'an 4:15"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."
Qur'an 4:15"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."
Ishaq:584"Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman."
Ishaq:185"In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards."
Qur'an 24:6"And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth."


0
wat a women shud do
written by kahn , December 06, 2011
@ahmed agamy or any muslim

wat a muslim woman should do (as per koran) in case her husband do the lewd act?? Is she also allowed to be angry on her husband or does she have the right to beat her husband???

Please answer YES or NO
0
QUESTIONS BOTHERING ME
written by kahn , December 06, 2011
@ahmed or any muslim or any non muslim

These questions always bother me, would appreciate if some one can answer.

Why Muhammad father name was "abdullah". abdullah means "slave of allah" but as far as i know muhammad father and grandfather were caretakers and custodians of kaaba and kaaba was filled with 360 idols.

Is there any historical evidence that Abraham ever visited the place of kaaba (other than koran).

If Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ismail did all or any of the Prophets who came after Abraham ever talked about kaaba (as the holiest place) or visited kaaba.

Why muslims consider muhammad as a complete man when he never converted or served his own parents (why allah removed muhammads parents although he send muhammad to show an example to people)

Why allah didnt give a chance to muhammad to raise a son or to have brothers or to have sisters so that muhammad can practically demonstrate the responsibilities towards these relations. To be frank i have family responsibilities towards my parents, my brothers, my sister and my children and muhammad (the kamil man) had no such responsibility apart from one daughter who was taken care by 13 wives and wat his right hand possessed.

How can we call such a person "a perfect human"???
0
Kahn- Those thought- provoking questions should bother any objective person
written by Clement-Islam-Watch Pastor , December 06, 2011
You know Mohammed was con artist. He employed father Abraham into the kaaba worshops of idols in order to give his brand of idolatry credibility.

Abraham was called out of Idolatry and not into Idolatry as is the case of Kaaba worship. Abraham was a Hebrew and not an Arab. Abraham was called to inherit Cannan land the present Palastine and not Mecca or Arabia. He never built any house of Idolatry with his son Ishmeal, Ishmeal the Son of Egyptian slave Girl has no covenant relationship with Abraham and was never a prophet as taught in the Quran.

He blessed to raised 12 princes of great nation but will be wild fighting his brothers all the times, Just as we see the Arabs breeding violent relation and terrorism all over the world.

Mohammed was a false prophet a deceiver an Antichrist damning the souls of Billions into hell.
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@Clement-Islam-Watch Pasto
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
First of all, "That is the point You believe that those command in the Quran and example of the prophets in the hadith are from Allah and must be obeyed, but we see nothing godly and good example from the Prophet of Islam that a rational being should obeyed except people that are brainwatched and made as morons who have no free will of their own. " is extremely unjustified, and you say that without proof, prophet Mohammed PBUH is the greatest man in the world, dont count my voice, count his

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_H._Hart

when he wrote this book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100

I will answer the remaining part of your comment soon, but just in short

"Qur'an 4:15"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."
Qur'an 4:15"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them." "

The words [by starvation] is fake, added by whatever source you got it from, I found it on every anti - islam website, and it is not in the translation of the quran, so [by starvation] is fake, it simply means, until death claims them

0
@ kahn on comment 1
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
Yes, she gets the same exact right as the man, listen to this

In Islam, just like for stealing, we have a very powerful punishment, which, again like cutting the hand, has many restrictions, and because it too is severe, it prevents sex between unmarried people from spreading like it has in the western world now,

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/cheating-and-infidelity/stats-about-infidelity.html


you would have never seen a portion of that amount of treason when that punishment was sentenced

anyway
in Islam

if a married woman has sex with another man other than her husband, she is thrown with rocks until she dies

but

for men

he is only, thrown with rocks until he dies

same punishment

equality

a formidable punishment, so that if those people with no hearts find love not enough to stop their sexual insanity, let horrific death stand in their way
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Does anyone know
written by Tanstaafl jw , December 06, 2011
The aHadith where Mohammed beats Ayesha?
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@ kahn comment 2
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
Dear Kahn, It would be my honor to assist you

I really do not know where Clement-Islam-Watch Pastor got his answer that he claimed to be from the Quran


but i will first answer you.



"These questions always bother me, would appreciate if some one can answer. "

// Ill do my best

"Why Muhammad father name was "abdullah". abdullah means "slave of allah" but as far as i know muhammad father and grandfather were caretakers and custodians of kaaba and kaaba was filled with 360 idols. "

// first of all, abdulllah is exactly what you said, " the slave of Allah" but the name "Allah" has a meaning in itself please read and enjoy this link I found, describing Allah Al- Mighty, much better than I ever could

http://emuslim.com/WhoIsAllah.asp


other than that, the one supreme god, is a concept shared by all the major religions in the world, so the supreme god Christians believe in is the same one god we believe in, the only difference is that we believe he is one true unparalleled being, while they claim that he is 3 in 1.

And so, the word Allah was present before Islam, and people believed in one supreme god then, but claimed he had other lesser gods with him

So saying that youre name is "the slave of god" shouldnt seem strange, as you do believe in several gods, but with one supreme ruler "Allah"
I hope I was clear


////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Is there any historical evidence that Abraham ever visited the place of kaaba (other than koran).


If Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ismail did all or any of the Prophets who came after Abraham ever talked about kaaba (as the holiest place) or visited kaaba.
// I am not knowledgeable enough to answer this, sorry.

Why muslims consider muhammad as a complete man when he never converted or served his own parents (why allah removed muhammads parents although he send muhammad to show an example to people)

//Different wise people in Islam stated different reasons on why prophet Mohammed PBUH was an orphan, but I myself do not know for sure, but in all cases, because we are talking about Allah now, which is the one supreme god we all believe in, I am sure Allah Al-Mighty wisdom in doing so. If I learn more i will add a comment with it

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Dear Kahn, continued
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
Dear Kahn, continued

Why allah didnt give a chance to muhammad to raise a son or to have brothers or to have sisters so that muhammad can practically demonstrate the responsibilities towards these relations. To be frank i have family responsibilities towards my parents, my brothers, my sister and my children and muhammad (the kamil man) had no such responsibility apart from one daughter who was taken care by 13 wives and wat his right hand possessed.

How can we call such a person "a perfect human"???

//First of all he did not have 1 daughter

his children were

Children of Khadijah:

Sons:
Abd-Allah ibn Muhammad
Qasim ibn Muhammad

Daughters:
Ruqayyah bint Muhammad
Umm Kulthum bint Muhammad
Zainab bint Muhammad
Fatima Zahra

Children of Maria:

Ibrahim ibn Muhammad



and for The child of maria(may Allah be pleased with her), Ibrahim Ibn Muhammed
the reason you probably did not hear about the male children, is because they all died young...


please do read this
maybe you will understand how he is perfect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_ibn_Muhammad


Other than that

You ( need ) to read the "Sera" or biography of prophet Mohammed PBUH, read it, know who he is, what he believed in, how he conveyed the message, see his mercy from the events that occurred then, search for the veiled truth

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Dear khan, continued... part 2
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011

I know the majority of the world thinks of Islam only, evil

but I know the truth, because I searched for it, and most of my work was done by logic, and I promise you, if any detail in the Islamic belief was out of context, I would have changed my faith, because the one truth I believe in, is that there is One true good, and I believe this because of long hours of deep thought, so from this one truth, I began my search, I balanced things, when I heard something that seemed awkward( in any religion) I would think it over and over, Christianity seemed legit in many occasions, unbalanced in other points, but most importantly, believing that god was a man, and was killed to remove sins, was overwhelming...

when I reached Islam in thought, I found many strange things to me, but when ever I disregarded unproved claims, I got closer to the truth, and after believing the core details, I started searching for the external details, like "Hijab" and understood how mandatory it is for protection, I was not able to conceive cutting the hand of thieves, until I understood it can only be done under special circumstances, and how important it is to prevent greater evils

but most importantly

The god in the Quran, is as great, merciful, and powerful as the one true god I believed existed, and everything he tells us of the past is in perfect harmony,


check these upcoming 3 verses, and hear their story



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Dear kahn, continued part 3
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
first, there was this verse
2:284 To Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it. So He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases. And Allah is Possessor of power over all things.


/// It said, "And whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it." which means if you think of doing something bad, you will get punished for it whether they do the bad deed or not

when the companions of the prophet Muhammed PBUH heard this, they all got so scared, they went to prophet Muhammed PBUH and asked him about what they should do!

Prophet Muhammed told them that they should not do like others before them who said that they heard what Allah commanded and refused it, and they should say " we heard and we will obey"

They did as the prophet told them to

for this, Allah blessed all of the Muslims, and gave us these two great gifts, in the form of versus, they hold within them a very great prayer, this prayer was given to us from Allah as a reward.


2:285 The Messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. They all believe in Allah and His angels and His Books and His messengers. We make no difference between any of His messengers. And they say: We hear and obey; our Lord, Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.

2:286 Allah imposes not on any soul a duty beyond its scope. For it, is that which it earns (of good), and against it that which it works (of evil). Our Lord, punish us not if we forget or make a mistake. Our Lord, do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us. Our Lord, impose not on us (afflictions) which we have not the strength to bear. And pardon us! And grant us protection! And have mercy on us! Thou art our Patron, so grant us victory over the disbelieving people.
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Ahmed
written by aaki , December 06, 2011
You can debate all you like with these people on this site. Like a broken record they end up back at the same point. They mix truth with lies and present it as the truth. Just like the reference you spotted (starvation) hahaha!
Their objective is not to reason but to hate. They are part of a small vitriolic bunch who create islamophobia! Compare their words with words used by the Nazis rearding the Jews. Create the hatred and then it becomes easier demonise and ultimately attack.
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Ahmed You r A typical Muslim
written by kahn , December 06, 2011
Ahmed sorry to say but your long and lengthy answer is just blabbering of a typical muslim (mullah)

You are saying there is similar punishment for a MAN, but you cannot provide a koran reference. Means you are blabbering and deceiving urself.

I know word "allah" was used for supreme god in pagans but can you prove that this word "allah" was used by any earlier prophet or prophets.

You cannot prove that Abraham ever came to mecca or any prophet ever spoke about or visit mecca/ kaaba. This is clear proof that Kaaba/ Mecca was not chosen by any god rather it was invention of muhammad once he conquered mecca.

For muhammad not having any responsibility towards parents or any other relations..allah knows best is the typical muslim answer.

I know muhammad had more than one daughter but only fatima is discussed others had no importance..why??? muhammad sons died early so he had no responsibility for raising a son??? no responsibility of brothers, sisters as well.





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...
written by aaki , December 06, 2011
unfortunately the islamophobes don't realise that we are not the Jews.
The Quran describes these people:
2:6
to top

Sahih International
Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
2:7
to top

Sahih International
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
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To Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by lw1 , December 06, 2011
Do you write on any Islamic sites to warn Muslims that beating and definitely killing should not be the interpretation of 4.34 as you understand it.
Most of the contributors to this site are peaceful people but do not believe in Quran and want change peacefully.
We are not a danger.
You should be targetting people who cause violence.
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Allah's Seal
written by kahn , December 06, 2011
@ aaki

aaki u r funny..

although reality shows that muhammad succeeded in putting seal upon beduins of arabia who havnt moved a single step since 14 centuries.

thanks god he could not put seal on rational people therefore rest of the world are living in 21st century modern world.

Matter of fact arabs are also enjoying the benefits of Kafirs inventions including Petrol.

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@lw1
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
You are correct, and yes, I do address muslims alot about certain misunderstandings or abusing rights ( i am not talking about beatings) given by Allah, but some do not comply... although alot do

and if you do care to know, these beatings, are very uncommon, plz do not reply with "yes they are common", you cant judge, because you only hear what the media wants to make you hear, but I live here, and I have been in more than 1 country in the muslim world, so yes, id know.
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@ kahn
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
such a shame....
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@aaki
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
I am thankful for your point, I believe you are right, I thought maybe they are open minded,

I hoped we could debate on these subjects as strongly as we can to see who is correct, but every time i replied to them, they started another point with insults, doubtlessly, their wisdom is questionable, and their logic limited, ill stop posting,

but this was a very good experience

Thank you Allah, for granting me the words to reply to every word given to me, you are very Generous... (sob7anak)

and thank you aaki, nice to you in this place :)


and may Allah purify your hearts, and show you the truth...if there is good in you
and may Allah divide you and weaken your hearts..............if you intend us or any one harm


Thank you.
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to meet you *
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
to meet you *
0
Websters Dictionary ,HIT
written by dead or alive , December 06, 2011
to strike with a blow or missile.to affect severely.
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Kahn
written by aaki , December 06, 2011
Enjoy your time in the sunshine. Word to the wise, no empires last forever.
"p51
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion (to which few members of other civilizations were converted) but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do."
yeah you are destroying Muslim lands for petrol. The gap is closing.


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@ dead or alive
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
Then search for the word that has the meaning i ment
0
@aaki
written by Ahmed Hamed agamy , December 06, 2011
The time is coming anyway, we shud seek a different audience, one that is willing to hear and negotiate effectively
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Islamic Wife Beating causes even more Violence!
written by Gnostic , December 06, 2011
It is so obvious: If a muslim beats his wife, then she becomes more likely to beat the children. Consequently, the children will become violent as well. Against other children and so on. Every well educated teachers knows but Islam does not. Everywhere the islamic books are so full of violence and hate.

More than 1000 years before Islam, Buddhism teached that hate will never put an end to hate. Only not to hate will put an end to this and it is the same with violence. You must only have a look to the islamic world in general, in Iraq and Afghanistan. The never ending killings there, honour killings and so on.

Where you can find islam, there is also violence, almost everywhere. Fathers killing their daughters when they fall in love or people killing their neighbours for the same reason, killings in hte name of Islam, stonings, chopping off hands and feet ...

While progressive countries are trying to abolish violence, such as domestic violence by laws, death penalty and violent punishments, islam still teaches all this and will ever do so because nobody can change the quran.

Must we expect that their will be still such punishments on earth in 100 years or even in 1000 years? The world can only achieve this without islam.
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Websters Dictionary ,BEAT
written by dead or alive , December 06, 2011
to strike or hit repeatedly;to pommel;to crush;to defeat;to be too difficult for
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Incorrect Interpretation
written by Malem , December 06, 2011
It is really to admonish them when they do something that is in violation of the sacred relationship of marriage. It does not say to go about beating ones wife freely as you feel you need to. Just as one spanks their children sometimes when they need to be disciplined.
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Malem
written by aaki , December 06, 2011
Seriously don't bother! They are not interested in the correct interpretations. Hate sites like this are just here to enable, to give ideas and false information to the idiots amonst them and the far right. It takes one idiot to read all these lies and assume it's the truth. Then they go out and act. Whether it's tearing a hijab off a lady or vandalising a mosque. Or worse still killing innocents in Norway because they appeared to be friendly to the Muslims! That's the agenda of sites like this, but time Is almost up. They are on the wrong side of history. Just like we despise the Nazis now, we will kook back and despise the islamophobes too!
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@ aaki
written by Cererum123 , December 06, 2011
If you really have the correct interpretations into English for these verses then please tell us where to find them ,and what the name of the translation is. I am someone who genuinely wants the truth. Also if this is the incorrect interpretation of the Quran then why isn't there an uproar about these translators altering what are supposed to be Allah's words? Is the verse you quoted above to be taken that someone who doesn't believe now will never believe ,and that you shouldn't warn them? If it's futile to warn people then why do you and others like Reed and Malem do so regularly? Doesn't this also mean that Allah has chosen for disbelievers already ,and that he will not allow them to change their fate? If those who disbelieve in Allah were never warned then why should they be punished for not believing? If people can be warned shouldn't you want to do so in a kind and loving way so that they can have a chance at living in paradise?

@ Ahmed Hamed Agamy

You stated Christian belief somewhat incorrectly. Christians don't believe that God is a man ,but the He became a man in the person of Jesus Christ. Your objection to the sacrifice that Jesus made is a problem for many today and in the past.1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
I would like to have a real discussion with you if you are still posting and willing to do so.
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inventions as western violence
written by kahn , December 07, 2011
aaki wrote

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion (to which few members of other civilizations were converted) but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do."

so you translate "inventions" as "western violence" this is extreme stupidity or i shud call it ignorance. Now I have no doubt of gods seal on muslim brains. particularly aaki brain.

Petrol is the basis of "materialism" and "capitalism" and "international terrorism" by western powers over countries having it like saudi and gulf. Why allah put such an evil under the soil of holy place which will take whole humanity away from simplicity, spritiualism and religion and through them into race of materialism.

Think over it!!
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QUESTION IS!!
written by kahn , December 07, 2011
Muslims are in a deep shit today.

It started from the day one. the day muhammad died muslims split into factions (shia sunni first and later into hundreds of sects)

Abu bakr spent his two year caliphate killing apostates (people leaving islam) called rida wars

Umar had a little hold..Usman appointed his relatives as governors..Aisha battle with Ali. Muawiya killed Ali..Muawiya killed Hassan..Yazeed killed Hussain including every single family members of muhammad.

Rest is the history..history of violence..history of treason..history of traitors among muslims..all these centuries not a single invention by muslims which could benefit humanity.

just take away today electricity, telephone, rail, aeroplane from muslims and see where they stand..muslims should be thankful to westerners/ kafirs.

westerners inventions are benefitting the whole humanity and not a single community or religion..muslims must appreciate.

allah or muhammad or any muslims couldnt even inform/ discover petrol lying under saudi soil..was discovered by westerners.

Muslims have all the right to exploit westerners..but the reality is they are not smart and intelligent enough.

Muslim rich country do not gives you citizenship even if you work for them whole your life..west gives. In a muslim rich country (saudi/ gulf) one (including muslims) cannot own land/ home/ business..cannot marry their women...west gives all these rights (including muslims).

Last 10 centuries muslims have lost supermacy and are on a downhill. If allah is the chairman of muslims and muhammad is the managing director they must take some action (rather they shud have taken).

It is simple that when an organization is deteriorating (and muslim/ islam is deteriorating since day one) the managing director has to take action to improve the situation or to resign if he is unable to do so. when he resigns the higher authority has to appoint new director.

Why allah doesnt want to appoint new director for muslims?? What is Allah waiting for????



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Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by Clement-Islam-Watch Pastor , December 07, 2011
You said "prophet Mohammed PBUH is the greatest man in the world, dont count my voice, count his http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_H._Hart

What do you think of Mohammed yourself? Michael H Hart is entitled to his opinion just as you and I. It is not what anybody says about you or me or Mohammed but What God said about him that matters. I think it is better you make an appropriate defense of your cult religion than to depend on what somebody says about your prophet. According to the Bible which is the only authentic word of God on this planet earth, Mohammed was false prophet and an antichrist who had beguiled billions of people like you and Michael Hart to think that Mohammed was the greatest prophet of God.
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Re. aaki
written by Gnostic , December 07, 2011
You wrote: "Whether it's tearing a hijab off a lady or vandalising a mosque"

You are laughable! Who is doing this!?!?!? Maybe there are sunni muslims burning down shia or ahmadiyya mosques, yes, this happens very often. And muslims are also very often destroying churches in muslim countries as well. There is no other religion on earth igniting so much violence.
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gnostic
written by aaki , December 07, 2011
http://www.suite101.com/news/m...ay-a396642

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/11/22/toronto-niqab-mall-assault-video.html

read and stop talking rubbish!
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@ aaki
written by Cererum123 , December 07, 2011
Could you please give me some answers to my questions above. I understand that you may be busy ,but you did just have the time to post in response to Gnostic. I have been unable to find answers to these questions even on sites that a Muslim friend of mine recommended. I would also like an answer about Allah being the greatest of Makr (here is a definition by ar-Razi who is supposed to be a famous Muslim expositor "scheming (makr) is actually an act of deception aiming at causing evil") Allah is also described with another word with the same meaning "kayd".This is also another word intended as an evil deception. Even Satan accused Allah of deceiving him in Surah 15:39 (for space reasons I am just giving the surah numbers) Surah 11:34 shows that Allah's will can be to lead people astray. How can a Muslim be sure that they aren't the one's being led astray when it seems to be arbitrary on who Allah wills it to be done. I have never been able to get a straight answer out of anyone on this issue. I also think that this verse is troubling. And when We desire to destroy a city,We command it's men who live at ease, and they commit ungodliness therein ,then the Word is realized against it,and We destroy it utterly. Surah 17:16
This is Allah commanding people to do bad things. This is downright awful if it is true. This makes Allah the one who is supposed to be the creator of our universe someone who makes people do the things which are wrong and then destroys them for obeying his command. Please aaki if this is a mistranslation then I urge you to show me a trustworthy place in which I can find the true meaning of these verses.
0
Re: aaki
written by Gnostic , December 07, 2011
This what you are concerned about? And no word about sucide killings, 9/11 and so many serious crimes commited in the name of Allah and Islam? About how islam is working to keep the muslims stupid? About genetical deseases caused by islamic inbreeding? Widespread stupidity caused by islamic law that made bookprinting illegal for centuries? By islamic censorships that is still surpressing and critics against islam? It is a shame to watch more than a billion people living in ignorance and superstition and still proudly playing the torchholder of ignorance! You must understand that it is really difficult for cilvilised people to watch muslims without becoming angry about it. That there are so many people ignoring the fact that they have brains! People who are ignorant and proud of it!
0
Cerebrum
written by aaki , December 07, 2011
http://www.ruqaiyyah.karoo.net...eating.htm

read dr Karoo's article regarding your questions on husband and wife stuff.
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khan
written by Machmoed , December 07, 2011
Umar had a little hold..Usman appointed his relatives as governors..Aisha battle with Ali. Muawiya killed Ali..Muawiya killed Hassan..Yazeed killed Hussain including every single family members of muhammad.

Yes, it's Allahs will. Here is the funny thing. The enemies of the messenger won the war eventually and developed the religion islam as it suited them and known today. The hadiths and much islamic doctrines as we know it today were all from the ommayads and later and there is nothing evidential that shows that the islamic story as represented in the orthodix vision could be true, but rather FALSE. The qur'an wasn't completed till 20th of the 8th century. Muhammad and Ali were used at the end of the 7th century as religious politic statements and not as names of individuals etc.

It's a fallacy to believe/think humanity is not capable of producing such lifestyle/religions/books.
0
Cerebrum
written by aaki , December 07, 2011
http://muslim-responses.com/Deceive/Deceive_

read and try to understand!
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Gnostic
written by aaki , December 07, 2011
"Re. aaki
written by Gnostic , December 07, 2011
You wrote: "Whether it's tearing a hijab off a lady or vandalising a mosque"

You are laughable! Who is doing this!?!?!?"

my specific response to your specific question!
D'oh
0
Re:
written by Gnostic , December 07, 2011
Any dogkeeper with some brain in his head knows that it is wrong to beat his dog if he wants to teach him anything useful. But Allah does not know that it is wrong to beat ones wife!? Who is teaching such blasphemous things!? If somebody beats his wife she will beat her children and then the childre will become violent too. Be honest, how many muslims beat their children in order to teach them how to perform prayer, how to fast and how to observe all these useless, superstitious things! How about teaching useful things such as modern science and this without violence? Good idea, isnt it?
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@ aaki
written by Cererum123 , December 09, 2011
I had no questions concerning husbands and wives. Also I have taken a look at your look at Muslim responses website. These arguments have already been refuted. They cite false examples of God of the Bible supposedly deceiving people ,and don't answer the question of Allah deceiving his own followers. Allah's deception when followed to it's logical conclusions shows that Allah is not the God of the Bible ,and that Allah started the world's largest religion (this being Christianity). They also had false answers to these examples of Allah's deception. For some refutations to these and other Muslim polemics I point you to this link www.answering-islam.org/author...eiver.html
(this is a specific rebuttal to one of the articles directly linked to your own link ,but click on polemics rebuttals for links to the rest). There are still several questions that are unanswered even if you do count those refuted arguments you offered(such as Allah commanding evil and then punishing those who followed the command).
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To Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by Yibel , December 09, 2011
Just what is it that you want to negotiate?

Islam is an extremely violent warrior cult, so wife beating is just training for being brutal to non-Muslims. The Qur'an is a violent training manual with 149 Verses of the Sword and 164 Jihad passages. The Qur'an's most violent passages were revealed after Muhammad had extinguished the Quraysh as a threat and had taken over Makkah. Much of Surats 8 and 9, for example, were revealed during the time when Muhammad launched an offensive military operation against the Byzantine Empire, a people who had never even heard of him before he started threatening their rulers and demanding that they convert to Islam. At around the same time, he was also sending his fiercest warriors, such as Khalid bin Walid, to fight the few remaining non-Muslim tribes of Arabia to convert them to Islam by force. One tribe in Yemen was told, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." (Bukhari v.5, b.59, no.643) Muhammad sent Khalid to the Banu Harith tribe, and "ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them." (Tabari v.9, p82)

The only way Muslims have ever been able to make Islam superior to other systems of belief is through violence, aggression, fear, intimidation, bullying, and other forms of predatory behavior.

A phobia is an irrational fear of something. Therefore, there is no such thing as Islamophobia. Any fear of islam is a perfectly rational response to a very obvious threat to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
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pakistan entity is a curse to mankind
written by manoj,hyderabad , December 10, 2011
That rump entity breakaway territory of India that calls itself Pakistan needs to be invaded and occupied by either the Hindus or the Christians though it is primarily the responsibility of the Hindus because it is they who allowed the territory to break away and become a center for global terror. We are engaged in a generational conflict in the war on Islam, and like the Hindus have been fighting the Muslims for over 1000 years. Hindus and Christians are natural allies. We need the support of the Hindu religious and political leaders to isolate and destroy Islam from the region. By defeating Islam militarily we can compel the Muslims to accept Hinduism. But this news is a disappointing to say the least! If THIS is the way the way the Hindu leaders compromise and betray the cause then all we can say is we Christians remain committed to carrying forward our cause without their help. We had high hopes from Mr.Modi. Earlier his fight against the Muslims was unrelenting and he had our admiration and respect.. Now he seems to be succumbing to the general compromising attitude adopted in the sub-continent. India allows bits of its territory to break away and become failed states and hotbeds of terrorism. its fights inconclusive military conflicts with its own break away rump entities ; the last being in 1971 when it occupied its own former territory renamed it as Bangladesh and then promptly let it go to become yet another failed state. None of the Hindu leaders not even the religious ones call for the re-integration of these break away entities; none of the Hindu political or religious leaders call for uncompromising support to the USA in its war on Islam. None of the Hindu leaders (not even the great warrior Guru Tackray )congratulate us Americans in our victories against Islam and great battles we fought such as at Falluja in Iraq or in Kandahar delivering a heavy blow to the Muslims. We fight alone and unaided but we want the goodwill and love of the Hindus because their fight is our fight.We hurt when brave committed crusaders like Guru Tackray, and Mr Modi are silent and ambivalent in their support for the USA. But our fight goes on. We will soon be driving to the and lean over to shake Mr. Modi's hand
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Ahmed, Aaki, no the goal IS to reason
written by Demsci , December 10, 2011
No, Aaki, Ahmed, on the whole the goal here IS to reason. To criticise in order to improve mankind's condition. And I believe much in progress.

This here is about Islam, but with free speech countless existing religions, ideologies, ideas and actions are severely criticised and it is for the good, because in this way mankind learns to improve stupid or evil habits all the time and as fast as possible. Being not perfect also means being able to improve! Why do'nt Muslims react in this way!

Now about Ahmed asking us to differentiate between Islam's theory and the practice done by self-confessed Muslims. Good idea. But then Islam's theory is massively understood!

What if we consider Islam's Ummah as an association, spiritual-politicial organisation. And if we see mankind as Muslims and "ordinary people".

Then the ordinary people can study and see both Islamic theory and practice of Muslims. And they can see that the theory is misunderstood by millions. Either the peaceful practitioners or the violent wife-beaters and terrorists and supremacists are wrong. they can't both be right.

But all still carry the same name and all still are in the same organisation with the others. Often bragging about their huge number; 1,6 billion and growing.

But for peaceful Muslims that is like belonging to a criminal organisation and not stepping out. Peaceful Muslims should finally understand that they cannot be trusted and believed while still in the same organisation with all these misunderstanding, stupid and evil people.

And Islam has no separation between church and state. It should be considered political and compared with democratic laws, constitutions. And these can be altered, Islam cannot, only it's interpretation can. But that which is considered perfect cannot be improved, adapted to changing times.

And the Islamic theory get's one way or the other massively misunderstood and Muslims should be held accountable for not improving at least the interpretation of Islamic theory so that it is clearly understandable to all.

And then Muslims should be held accountable for not forming a new Islamic democratic movement, finally putting clear conditions on membership. It should firmly throw out all these damned misunderstanders in the world that give Islam such a well-deserved bad name and such low trust and credibility to all Muslims.

Democratic Muslims should say to ordinary people; no, you are not Islamophobes, not haters, but you have valid criticisms and we will try to clearly secede from default-muslims. And we shall be more loyal to fellow democrats than to default-muslims and in our organisation we will have clear updated doctrines and we will throw out those who persist in misunderstanding and disagreeing with it.
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Demsci
written by aaki , December 10, 2011
Valid points! unlike most other religions at this point in time islam has no central authority figure. Muslims are fragmented ever since the early 1900s. How and why the fragmentation happened we are perfectly aware. The goal for the Muslims is to re-establish the central authority. Once that happens then pretty much everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet. Hence reform and accountability to Muslims and non Muslims would be easy to do! its already started and hopefully soon it will be done. It's just a matter of time!
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Why no equal right for women?
written by lw1 , December 10, 2011
4.34 gives right to men to punish women.
Why doesn't Allah give equal right to women to punish men when they misbehave?
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Thank you aaki
written by Demsci , December 10, 2011
Thank you aaki, I am very glad with your reaction. and there is so much to reason with you and Muslims who are prepared to reason and improve. Instead of only defending Islam and denying all charges, dismissing all legitimate complaints against it. From those who have a good alternative to the Islamic way of life and organising society.

As I said I believe in progress, with fits and starts but still, for the whole of mankind. And the spearpoint of my objections against Islam now is the tenet of deathpenalty for apostasy. eventually Democratic Muslims should turn this into the opposite; condition on (continued) membership of their new Islamic organisation.

Muslims can be anti-democratic openly, like Anjem Choudhary and Shariah4Holland are, but they must be clear about all discrepancy between democratic laws, principles, rules etc. And broadcast that to the world, including their allies and defenders. And take the consequences. From a democratic world, from women who desire to be and remain free and because of that have valid objections against part of current Islamic doctrine and attitudes.

Or a part of the Muslims must "swear" that they will be more loyal to democratic laws, nations, leaders over contradicting laws and enemies of those nations and leaders.

I think Muslims must divide, but I do hope that a part of them get's the authoritative leadership you mentioned. I know there are many "seemingly neutral, sleeping" Muslims, but I am hoping for a real trustworthy group of democratic Muslims in the future.

And any way, did you read about diminishing birthrates among Muslims in Democratic nations, AND also in Islamic nations? Like in Turkey, Iran, Tunisia, Indonesia and Bangla Desh. You may not like that.

But it could well be because of women's education and emancipation. And it takes a lot away from Islam's chances of winning worldwide and it's threat to free people with alternative ways of life and organising society. That should encourage Muslims to make their peace with these ordinary people and democracy worldwide.
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@ aaki
written by Scrutator , December 10, 2011
"Why no equal right for women?
written by lw1, December 10, 2011
4.34 gives right to men to punish women.
Why doesn't Allah give equal right to women to punish men when they misbehave?"

AAKI, CAN YOU PLEASE ANSWER THE ABOVE ?
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Women in Islam
written by kahn , December 10, 2011

Below is published in Gulf News interesting to read..

"And out of Cairo comes a report that an Islamic cleric residing in Europe released an edict stating that women should not come in contact with bananas and cucumbers to prevent any sexual thoughts. The shaikh was quoted as saying that if women wanted to eat these food items, a related male family member such as a father, brother or husband should bring it to them already cut up in small pieces.
He added that these fruits and vegetables "resemble the male penis" and thus could arouse women or lead them into sexual thoughts. Carrots and zucchini should be similarly considered as part of the list of forbidden foods for women to handle in their natural state. When asked how such controls would apply to women out shopping in the vegetable section of a supermarket for their family without holding and inspecting the goods, the shaikh answered saying this matter was between them and God. In answering another question about what to do if women in the family like these foods, the shaikh opined that it was best to take the food and cut it for them in a hidden place so they couldn't see it in its natural state."

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Islamic Inventions & Innovations (III)
written by Gnostic , December 10, 2011
This is what great Allah revealed to us in order to improve our
lives:

Wifebeating
Stoning
Flogging
Amputations
Cruxifications
PBUH

What would we do without this devine knowledge! Imagine, there
are very primitve societies living in the jungle without knowing all
this very useful things!
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Central Authority My Ass
written by kahn , December 10, 2011
@aaki

aaki says,

"The goal for the Muslims is to re-establish the central authority. Once that happens then pretty much everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet."

Muslims establish central authority my ass..only aaki can say such a stupid thing. Last 10 centuries muslims are praying for Qiyamat to end their miseries. Let me know a single person out of 1.5 billion muslims who can unite and lead Muslims.

I bet even muhammad come out of his grave today he cannot unite muslims. Muslim rulers will immediately kill him to keep their kingdoms. Never forget it was muslim rulers who killed muhammad family for the power.

Islam/ Muhammad/ Quran have been used to rule the gullible masses since the day one by the ruling islamic elites.
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Kahn
written by aaki , December 10, 2011
Nobody gives a crap what you say:
keep barking it's fun to read! It just shows your ignorance!
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RE: aaki
written by Gnostic , December 10, 2011
I agree with Khan. Islam is an invention. It is an ideology and was invented in order to fight war against the Sassanid and Byzanthine empires. The authors of the quran drew from jewish, christian, gnostic and other sources without really understanding what they were doing. The result is a religion which is not only extremely violent but also inferior because there is no deeper philosophy. Instead, islam teaches very simply how to award and how to punish, many rules as if there were not any more to life than that. There are so many words from the quran that are only wrong. For example, that there are no mysteries not revealed by the clear book! Sorry, dont have the surah but it is clearly written in the quran. But it is riduculous to write that since there are so many things not revealed in the quran. How can people believe in such a nonsense???
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Gnostic
written by aaki , December 10, 2011
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
I think your full of hot air, that's my opinion.
See how this works!
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@ Gnostic
written by Cererum123 , December 10, 2011
Actually all of the above but the PBUH have been around since before Islam(this might have been too in some form or another ,but I have never seen anyone but a Muslim use it). Crucifixion for example was invented by the Romans. These things have been here before Islam ,and several are still things that are outside Islam as well ,but Islam does seem to be keeping some of them around that would most likely be just a memory now.
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Islam
written by Gnostic , December 10, 2011
On the one hand, islam is limitating. Bookprinting was forbidden for centuries, as well as depicting of humans and even animals, as well as music to some degree, mixing of people (why), eating of pork and even scampis or other seafruits.

On the other hand there are things allowed in islam that are forbidden according to the laws of civilised countries such as wife beating and polygamy .

People have no equal rights in islam, women dont and non-muslims dont. There is no freedom of expression in any islamic country and inbreeding is widespread causing more genetical deseases than in any other communities.

Pray! Yes, you can pray as much as you want but this will not change anything and is not helpful at all in order to achieve a better future. Muslims are all consuming their future by destroying their environment and then they blame all other people except themselves.

Why? Because the quran gives a very bad example by blaming jews, chrisitans and polytheists and by igniting hate against them.
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Gnostic
written by aaki , December 10, 2011
Talk about B.S and projecting. It's not even funny.
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Re:
written by Gnostic , December 10, 2011
Can you tell me what B.S. is?
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aaki u r brainless donkey
written by kahn , December 11, 2011
aaki aaki aaki

accepting facts will reduce your frustration..i promise

Muhammad family was killed by islamic rulers for power and you fool are talking about muslim unity. I wish my barking can bring you out of denial state but i have no hope my barking will work on a brainless donkey like you.
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Re: Kahn
written by Gnostic , December 11, 2011
There is no need to call aaki a donkey. But I agree that islamic unity is far away. It was never realised even in the past, at least not for a longer period. How should it work and what for? To spread wife beating over the world? There is not even an Arab unity and I do not see what Indonesians and Morrocans might have in common. Islam, yes, but everything else is totally different. The schools of law, then they have different trade partners and so on. In fact , muslims were always fighting muslims everywhere for any reason such as religion, oil and land. Moreover, I think that many so-called muslim leaders do not believe in islam at all because they are not stupid enough.
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............
written by Machmoed , December 11, 2011
The facts of early islam are not known or denied by muslims who didn't get history of the early islam. Many muslims encourage non-muslims to read hadith (sahih) and sira's, but they themselfes do not know what is written. If they knew they wouldn't tell others to read it. Reed Wilson who knows a bit what's written, denounces hadith cpmpletely. Aki and others are not yet this far. It begins with denial.
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Re: Kahn
written by Gnostic , December 11, 2011
As far as I know the Umayyads were not interested in Islam and the Abbasids enforced the Mutazilite school which does not exist any more. But they taught a quite different form of Islam, that the quran is not valid for all time and that science and rationalism is more important. In Iran, the Mongol rulers embraced islam but never really believed in it. Even Akbar the Great of the Mogul Empire created his own religion different from islam. What counts is power and wealth and not religion. Religion is used in order to rule and not vice versa. If you only have a look at Saudi Arabia then you understand what I mean. The Kaaba is so closely surrounded by Hotels that someone asks how they could get a permission to build so close. And there were so many historical buildings bulldozed down in order to create space for hotels and Starbuckes and the likes. It is always money that comes first and not moral or ethics or religion. But many muslims are so naive that they believe in this religious disneyland! I dont understand how they can like the Hadj anymore! All the buildings are so ugly and so much business ...
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Muslims must read Islamic History
written by kahn , December 11, 2011
Gnostic your analysis is correct. muslims never read their history. i know reading koran is very boring (in translation) that is why they only read in arabic..but history is never boring. who will tell these people that NO Prophet ever visited Mecca/ Kaaba. No prophet even ever spoke about Mecca/ Kaaba still they believe mecca is the holiest place chosen by al-lah (the-god). Hajj is a business in mecca since centuries even before muhammad was born. Qurayesh tribe were custodians of this business.

Saudi is earning petro dollars from the modern day evil petrol (and by products of petrol) which has thrown whole humanity into race of materialism.(also cause of environment destruction) .why muslims do not denounce saudi petrol.

Why muhammad had to leave mecca if al-lah was supporting him. Who told muhammad to go to Taif. Why muhammad had to conquer mecca (muslims call it Fatah e mecca) with an army of 10,000.

muhammad had no responsibility of parents, no responsibility of brothers, sisters, sons and still they call him a complete man (insaan e kaamil). Koran says to respect and help parents..why allah didnt give this chance to his apostle. why allah took his parents. I am sure if muhammad parents were alive they would never accept islam.

Muhammad was unable to convert any of his relations apart from his wife and ali who was being fed by muhammad at that time. Later it was sons of abu sufiyan (muhammad uncle) muyawiya and yazeed who killed muhammad family. Yazeed said loud on the day Hussain's head was brought to him "today we took revenge from muhammad for insulting our elders".

As far as unity of muslims is concerned this is un-imaginable. Islam broke the day muhammad died. From that day it is only used for deceiving people and holding power.

Just for info to aaki, Zakir Naik is not allowed to enter pakistan because all sunni scholars have fatwa against him for calling muhammad a dead person. also shia have fatwa against him for praising yazeed.

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apology
written by kahn , December 11, 2011
abu sufiyan was cousin of muhammad.

muawyia was son of abu sufiyan and yazeed was son of muyawiya.
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The light...
written by bundypig , December 11, 2011
is to bright for them to say much of anything, they are burning in the darkness
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Kahn/gnostic
written by aaki , December 11, 2011
Thanks for the complements:
even your spiritual leaders are aware of the unity that is getting closer everyday.
"As a result senior policy makers including George W Bush have 'warned' of the consequences of the Khilafahs' re-establishment. Bush, in a speech to the American nation in October 2005 stated: "The militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow all moderate governments in the region, and establish a radical Islamic empire that spans from Spain to Indonesia." Donald Rumsfeld, during the invasion of Iraq confirmed, "Iraq would serve as the base of a new Islamic Caliphate to extend throughout the Middle East and which would threaten the legitimate governments in Europe, Africa, and Asia. This is their plan. They have said so. We make a terrible mistake if we fail to listen and learn. It is for these reasons America has imposed a Viceroy of the Middle East because the Muslim rulers cannot be propped up by an outside force for much longer."
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aaki
written by Soormar , December 11, 2011
The problem with aaki and other idiot muslims is that when we talk bad about Islam in Urdu or hindi language they think we are hindus, and when we talk bad in english they think that we are relative of G.W.Bush. This is what the mentality of muslims. they can never think straight and logical.
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@ kahun
written by Soormar , December 11, 2011
you are very right in your history sir. whatever you said, I also read that you indeed, grasped the exact idea which I do.
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@ aaki
written by Cererum123 , December 11, 2011
Since when are George W. Bush ,and Donald Rumsfeld "spiritual leaders". You still haven't answered a majority of my questions at all or even attempted to do so. You were the one claiming that no one on this site really wanted the truth ,and that no one here had the true interpretations. So why now that someone is asking for the truth ,and these interpretations you are not even attempting to answer a majority of the questions? All you did was put a link to a one sided argument from a thoroughly refuted Muslim polemic against a valid concern raised by Christians. If you really are in favor of reason than you should look at the refutations given above. When trying to get the truth sometimes you need to look at both sides of the story (or in some cases many sides). I also think you scared off Ahmed Hamed Agamy who seemed to have been a person to discuss these things with in a more reasonable way than many who have come on here before(You did this by calling all of us on here "Islamaphobic" and said that none of us would ever listen to reason. You even quoted a Quran verse that makes it appear that trying to appeal to a disbelievers reason is futile ,and that anyone who is a disbeliever now will remain that way forever). I would also appreciate it if you would answer my above questions without links if possible.
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Looking out the back door of the Vatican
written by dead or alive , December 11, 2011
could Mohammad been invented by them?
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Comment No. 100!
written by Gnostic , December 11, 2011
Congratulations! This is the 100th comment here! Not bad for this subject - wifebeating! It reveals that there are many people very concerned and keen to fight against violence against women!
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Or.....
written by Tanstaafl jw , December 11, 2011
......pretend that Muslims aren't given permission to beat their wives in the Qur'an.
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Why no equal rights for women?
written by lw1 , December 12, 2011
In case Muslims have missed my question( a few times now) :
4.34 gives right to men to punish women.
Why doesn't Allah give equal right to women to punish men when they misbehave?
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lw1
written by Dwito , December 12, 2011
Are you mad? how could he ordain such right when mo would find no place to hide? Besides the murder of mo would also not be blamed on Jew woman thereby. He had to take care of his father's back after all.
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Women in Islam
written by kahn , December 12, 2011
@lw1

In Islam men are rulers/ guardians over women. Men can do whatever/ punish women but women have no right to question men for their misbehaviour/ infidelities.

Men command and women can only beg in islam. Although, by nature men are more corrupt but men can have many women (wives/ concubbines) but women have to share one penis.

Women are treated as brainless creatures in islam not capable of decision making. Muslim men can do contract marriages (Mutah) in case they are away from their wives for long periods. Women have no right to do marriage in the absence of husband. In islam women have no sexual desires.
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To Dwito
written by lw1 , December 12, 2011
You have lw1 phobia and I will complain to all politically correct leaders in the West and India!
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Lw1
written by Malem , December 12, 2011
Men are punished by Allah as well as others if they violate the Koran. Everyone is accountable equally under the Koran, there is no person with greater rights than others. They might have different rights but none greater than the other. Women are worshipped under the Koran, the Sharia is a different animal and has no right under the Koran.
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To Malem
written by lw1 , December 12, 2011
You say 'Women are worshipped under the Koran, the Sharia is a different animal and has no right under the Koran.
You also say 'Everyone is accountable equally under the Koran, there is no person with greater rights than others.'
1. Is there a sura in the Koran which says women are worshipped under the Koran?

2. If women have equal rights under the Koran, why can't they punish men who misbehave -- why has Allah given this right to punish, only to men? This is not equal accountability, it is favoratism to men. Should women be given this equal right?
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@ Malem
written by Cererum123 , December 12, 2011
Sharia is based on the Quran ,Sira ,and ahadith literature. Under all of these things women are belittled. I would like an example of this "women are worshiped under the Quran" (wouldn't this be shirk and a serious sin in Islam?). This is entirely untrue ,and Mohammed's true feelings towards women are revealed in his own words several times in the Hadith. He says several times about how women are the majority in hell ,he says how if he could make anyone prostrate to anyone he would make women prostrate to men ,and he says that women have no common sense and that they are deficient in their religion. He also says they are ungrateful to their husbands. He says they will lead good men astray. He said that there is no greater fitna to his followers than women.(I do not have the exact hadith numbers but I have read them and they are not hard to find). The Quran itself says that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man. It says that prepubescent girls can be married ,that the marriage can be consummated ,and they can be divorced. This often in emulation of Mohammed happens to be much older men marrying these young girls. This is now the prevalent attitude towards women in Islam.(after all this is the opinion of Mohammed the "perfect man") In fact I can't really think of any women in the Quran being looked upon favorably other than Mary.(even the stories involving her have been twisted into a way that they are nearly unrecognizable, such as her being the sister of Aaron and Moses.) I know that you and Reed both reject the hadith ,but this is NOT the consensus of Islam. You have both joined the Quran only Muslims in this view (isn't dividing into sects also forbidden in the Quran?) . Aisha made the comment that among all women the ones who suffer the most are Muslim women. I'm guessing she would still come to that conclusion today. ( I am not now nor have I ever been under the impression that ALL Muslim men feel this way about the treatment of women. In fact I know a few Muslims who I believe would never treat a woman in the ways that Islam teaches.)
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Be proud of Mohamed!
written by Guy Macher , December 12, 2011
Why do Muslim barrows deny the words and actions of their prophet? Mohamed beat Aisha (not too sure why; late home from kindergarten?). So all Muslim barrows must beat their wives, and not just the pre-school age ones either.

The Muslim barrows denying marital beating are apostates!
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If you are a Muslim woman ......
written by lw1 , December 12, 2011
If you are a Muslim woman, why do you trust Allah when he discriminates against you?
Your husband can punish you with Allah's permission, but you have not been given a similar permission to punish your husband however bad he is.
Your Allah is so unfair and you can see that more than 60% of Quran is threats and hatred.
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Nice Poem!
written by Gnostic , December 12, 2011
A muslim sometimes beats his wife,
because this is true islamic life.

according to their holy book,
that she is less than any crook.

And this is wisdom from quranic view,
that men are strong and women screwed!

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Lw1
written by Malem , December 12, 2011
Is there somewhere in the Koran where it specifically says " Men can punish women" ? I have never seen it. Allah is fair to all, it is his nature he cannot be unfair. If your husband is "bad" what do you mean? A bad cook? A bad worker? or do you mean a bad person where maybe he is abusive etc. If you mean the latter then you have the right to leave him, again that is governed by the Koran and there is no shame in that. Again Sharia is Not the Koran and the Koran forbids anything other than ALlahs words in the Koran.
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To Malem
written by lw1 , December 12, 2011
You ask 'Is there somewhere in the Koran where it says ' Men can punish women?
I have never seen it.'

This article is based on 4.34, which allows men to punish women, but women are not given the same right to punish men.

4.34. --Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one of them excel the other , and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and SCOURGE them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.



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Lw1
written by Malem , December 12, 2011
Sourge, admonish are not so much punsihment but rather wasy that one would should discipline or displeasure. However if the women were a good wife and he a good husband this would never come up. It is like saying if spanking a child is allowed, it must occur all the time which is just jibberish. Men by an overwhelming majority lead the houselhold so that is what is indicated in 4.34, your interpretation of it is a bit off but in the right direction. Instead of focusing on what could be you should try to focus on what IS. I have never lifted a finger and have only on the rarest occasion raised my voice to either of my wives, we live wonderful lives. When they are at work they are treated extremely well and one is even the Senior Partner in her firm, with many males reporting to her. So your vision of Islam is one of many untruths.
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Men vs Women in Islam
written by kahn , December 13, 2011
"As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and SCOURGE them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. "

Why allah does not talk about mens rebellion (e.g cheating on his wife). If man is rebellious what should a women do? Is she given a right to admonish husband, is she given right to banish him to beds apart, is she given right to scourge her husband?????

Answer is NO.

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one of them excel the other."

Now if husband loses his job and wife excels & works to earn living for husband and children. Who should be in charge in this case?

"So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded."

Why no similar statement for the men (husband)??

For muslim men allah granted more than one wives and concubbines (right hand possession) to satisfy their rebellion but for women only threat "to guard their secrets".

What a justice!!
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You have to remember...
written by bundypig , December 13, 2011
if you believe malman, you take him at his word,like I am a 25 year old big hootered chick.
He represents (if you believe him) about 0.05% of muslims, so there are 99.95% that disagree with him (Reid Wilson is in this group too) that the hadith is the way the pervert muhammad lived, no if ands or buts.
So take him as he is, a legend in his own mind, that way you can't go wrong, at remember that he could be getting paid to troll this site.
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To Malem
written by lw1 , December 13, 2011
Why haven't women been given equal right to punish men ?

You also say 'Instead of focusing on what could be, you should try to focus on what IS.'
Focusing on what IS ---you get only Muslim men who beat or even kill their wives, and are the only ones who believe that they have sanction from Allah to SCOURGE their wives. Men of other religions or without religious belief do not justify it on religious grounds.

Do not forget to show me the sura in Quran where it says that women are worshipped in Quran.
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Islamic Law
written by Gnostic , December 13, 2011
Another proble with islamic law is how to judge. If you check the news then we will find out that a woman was executed in Saudi Arabia for sorcery today. In my view this is a barbaric act for something the women would not hqave been punished at all in civilised countries because it does not make sense if the authorities do not believe in sorcery by themselves. What I want to say is that islamic law does not work at all and it does not bring us a single step ahead. Since there are so many inconsistencies and many things are difficult to understand it is impossible to achieve unity about islamic law. Such a law is absolutely useless and causing only damages. It is also stupid to think that humans are not allowed or not capable of creating their law by themselves. Of course, we can. Yes, we can! Islam only tells us all time that we cannot. We just say that wife beating is forbidden and then it is and any wife beater can be punished according to this law. Where is the problem? And what do we need Allah or the quran for?
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@ Gnostic
written by Cererum123 , December 13, 2011
Yes humans can create laws all by themselves ,but since all mankind is of a corrupt and sinful nature laws made solely by man often become just as corrupt as the people who make them. George Washington once said "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."
The USA was founded on Christian principles ,and we are now running away from these principles at full speed with our current leadership. This is also now becoming an evident problem in nearly every area of life over here. If you destroy the foundation of a building the building collapses. This is also true of nations. The Christian foundation of America is under attack from every angle ,and if something isn't done the whole structure will collapse ,and no one will have anywhere to run to anymore for freedom. Everywhere I go I see moral ,educational ,and economic decline. Unless we start treating the source of the problem rather than the symptoms the "Land of the free" won't be free much longer ,and no one will have freedom anymore. Europe and Australia are already much further along this road to their loss of freedom ,and the effects are easily seen. Real examples of countries relying on man's reason over God's revealed truth include Hitler's Germany ,Mao in China ,and Stalin in the Soviet Union. In fact Hitler tried his best to make Germany's laws stay in line with Darwin's survival of the fittest. These are just a few examples of what happens when man rejects God's law. Mohammed also rejected God's law in favor of Allah's(God is very different than Allah). Allah gave very special privileges to Mohammad. Today people in Islam define right and wrong by Mohammad's life and the Quran. In the Bible right and wrong is defined by the very nature of God.
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Re: Cererum123
written by Gnostic , December 13, 2011
Oh no! I dont like any kind of fundamentalism and think the christian fundamentalists in the USA maybe even worse than the worst muslims! Fighting against the evolution theory, against science, agaiinst climate change theory but giving money for no sex before marriage but no money for activities against AIDS. They are the useful idiots of EXXON and other oil companies and they are behind the war in Iraq which in turn was the best possible advertisement for Al Qaeda! Christian, Muslim und Jewish fundamentalists are in desperate need fpr each other! The world would bebetter off without all of you!
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Ahmed
written by Truthseeker , December 13, 2011
You are only proving what everyone has known all along; that the husband-wife relationship in Islam is no different than the relationship between a man and his dog.

There is nothing "symbolic" about the verse permitting a man to beat his wife, it is what it is, if it were symbolic your Koran ought to be more clear on that issue.

And as people here have pointed out, there are hadiths proving that Muhammad approved of hard beatings.
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Monkey see monkey do AKI knows best
written by Mozlem , December 13, 2011
Book 004, Number 2127: Ayesha narrated. "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

When sleeping with Aisha Muhammad surreptitiously left his bed and went to the graveyard at Baqi; Aisha spied and followed Muhammad; when Muhammad learned Aisha’s misdeed he hit her (beat her) on her chest that caused much pain to Aisha...[she was only 8 yrs old]

Not only that Muhammad, in verse 4:34, asked men to beat their wives, he, at his last days, during last pilgrimage sermon, exhorted men to treat women as domestic animals, deny them food (when necessary, to discipline them) and and to beat them (just like the Bedouin Arab barbarians were used to beating their cattle).

A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife...11.2142

Book 11, Number 2142: Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

Beat your wife if she is insolent but do not beat her like a slave-girl...1.0142

Followers of best man on earth carry the traditions forward.
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Plz Bring New Topic
written by kahn , December 13, 2011
for how long we will be discussing this topic..authors plz bring a new subject..we are bored.
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Wife beating
written by Bhaskar , December 14, 2011
Violence against married women by their husbands is prevalent in different societies. The only difference is that of degree. But sanctifying such violence in Islamic society by referring to Qur’an is unacceptable. Why can’t we understand that the human society has changed beyond imagination in the past 14 hundred years? What was felt to be good by the Prophet for his 7th century Bedouin companions does not hold well in today’s perspective.
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dozens of childeren freed from chains in a 'prison madrassa' in Pakistan!!!!
written by pipo , December 14, 2011

My 'quality newspaper' brought it big this morning... I knew such things existed (for example in Sudan) but to read about it in my paper took me by surprise.
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@gnostic
written by non believer , December 14, 2011
well said gnostic. In fact all laws (religious) are man made. But fundamentalists attribute it to a supernatural being to make believe. If it were made by a supernatural being he she or it would not have been a mute spectator at the atrocities committed by believers. Every believer of one religion is a brainwashed person accusing believers of other religion as brainwashed. Aaki. Malem, Cerebrum, Clement are examples of such attitude. What a wonderful place the earth will be if there are no religious bigots.
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To Gnostics
written by Archpagan , December 14, 2011
There had been frequent war in the world before the advent of Judaism. But all them were fought over territory or slaves, not to establish any self-conceited righteousness. Such rivalries died down within a few generations because nobody justified such war with supposedly divine commandments. But, persecution of the Jews has been continuing for the last 3000 years and the jehad-Crusade for the last 1000 years because intolerance forms the core of Abrahamic Monotheism.

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@ Nonbeliever
written by Cererum123 , December 14, 2011
@ Nonbeliever
So you think God has been a silent spectator this whole time? There have been many miraculous things to happen throughout the history of mankind that were the direct intervention of God. The biggest even would be Jesus' atonement on the cross. After this God worked very hard to help His people spread His message of the Gospel to the whole world. A simple study of what the early Christians were up against in their command to spread the Gospel would reveal that by simply telling the truth of what happened they were going against all of the social faux-pas of their day. Teaching about the crucifixion itself would have immediately turned away huge numbers of people. Even historians of that time avoided discussing that despicable act because of the social ramifications. There are many many more ,and if they hadn't been teaching the truth we wouldn't be having this conversation now ,because 1 they were not in line with what was socially "acceptable" 2 they were talking to other eyewitnesses of these events and the people could just check anything they said(society was a little different back then ,and everybody made it their business to know everything they could)3 they had both the Jews and Roman Empire trying to stop them at every turn. God clearly also wasn't a silent spectator during the American Revolution ,or even now in everyday life miracles happen. In case you try to deny miracles because you have never experienced on just remember that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 14, 2011
@ Archpagan
The Jews were actually specifically taught to be kind to foreigners.Nearly all persecution was AGAINST the Jews not from them.Actually while the Jews were called God's chosen people they were also told that this was NOT because of their righteousness ,but in spite of their lack of it. Christians are taught to be kind and actually even LOVE their enemies(The Crusades were actually political not religious).In fact both Christians and Jews have been receiving intense persecution since their respective beginnings. Islam teaches something different. Islam teaches be kind to Muslims and harsh to everyone else. So only Islam can you actually claim has intolerance at it's core. Also Egyptians believed that their Pharaoh WAS a god so any war commanded by him would be seen as divinely justified. So your idea that only the 3 Monotheistic religions of the world have divinely justified their wars is false.
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 14, 2011
I have a correction to the above post I hope it shows up.
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.....
written by Machmoed , December 14, 2011
Why can’t we understand that the human society has changed beyond imagination in the past 14 hundred years? What was felt to be good by the Prophet for his 7th century Bedouin companions does not hold well in today’s perspective.

Ofcourse you're talking truth here, but for those who believe it's hard to accept this fact, so they choose to be stuck in the past.
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@ Bhaskar : WIFE BEATING
written by Scrutator , December 14, 2011
"Wife beating
written by Bhaskar, December 14, 2011
Violence against married women by their husbands is prevalent in different societies."

Bhaskar, wife beating in most societies, certainly in democratic ones, is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE, but in Islamic societies it is religiously sanctioned with the husband never having to explain why he beat (scourge) his wife ! This means[b[ in muslim countries, wife beating is not a criminal offence !

NOW, THIS ISLAMIC BEHAVIOUR CAN NEVER BE RIGHT, NOTWITHSTANDING WHAT AAKI, MALEM et al SAY !!
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UNEQUAL RIGHTS FOR AND OPPRESSION OF MUSLIM WOMEN (RELIGIOUSLY SANCTIONED)
written by Scrutator , December 14, 2011
Can Islamists like Malem, Aaki and others explain why muslim women suffer the following indignities and inferior rights ?

(1) A muslim can have upto 4 wives simultaneously, a muslim woman cannot have more than one husband at any one time.

(2) A muslim man is allowed to marry a muslim, christian or jewish woman ( without converting the latter two to Islam), while a muslim woman is allowed to only marry a muslim man.

(3) A muslim man can divorce his wife merely by uttering the "talaq" word thrice (he has to assign no reason as to why he did that), while a muslim woman cannot divorce her husband in a likewise manner.

[I know Islamists would pounce here and say that the wife can apply for a "khula" divorce .... but the khula divorce is not the same as the "triple talaq" facilities muslim men have ! A "khula" divorce in a Sharia court is a long and cumbersome process, wherein even if the wife ultimately wins, she loses her right to the 'mehr' amount as well as custody of the children.]

(4) From the estate of deceased parents, a muslim man inherits twice what his sisters inherit.

(5) In an Islamic court, a man's witness counts as same as that of two muslim women.

(6) Upon suspecting mere rebellion, a muslim husband is allowed to BEAT(SCOURGE) his wife, a muslim wife is NOT allowed to beat her husband no matter how lecherous, cruel or unjust he is !

WHEN WILL MALEM, AAKI AND THEIR ILK RAISE THEIR VOICES AGAINST THESE MANIFEST INJUSTICES ?
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To Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 14, 2011
Dear Cerebrum, it takes two to tango and security for one entails insecurity for other. That's why standing army of fighters are called 'security force'. Jews have limited ambition whereas ambitions of Christians and Mohammedans are limitless. That's the only difference between Judaism and the other two. The world needs spiritual dynamism based on the principles of synthesis and assimilation. Bigotry and exclusivism should have no place in civilized discourses.
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Follower of the word..
written by Believer of the Truth... , December 14, 2011
One question, what about Jesus ?.. The true word is in the Bible... Old and New Testaments... Jesus filled the gap between the true God and man... The " Quran " is way out of line and a book of evil, only blind people will follow it...
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@Cerebrum
written by non believer , December 15, 2011
You believe all that because you are a Christian. You would find fault with "supposed evidences" of other religions. Absence of evidence in their case also can not be evidence of absence. Judaism was founded because Moses was angry with Egyptians. Christianity spread because of the support of Constantine and other rulers. Islam spread because of the permission given by it's founder to loot, murder and rape. Then started the wars of "MY GOD IS TRUE GOD YOURS IS DEVIL'.Might is right. Plain fact is this supernatural power called God/Allah/or Hindu deities/other tribal gods were all created by men. The laws were also made by men in the name of God.
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@ non believer part 2
written by Cererum123 , December 15, 2011
You have also been doing a lot of looking at the failures of someone to live up to the teachings they profess rather than the teachings themselves. When it comes to the treatment of those who reject Christianity ,it is quite the opposite of what Islam teaches. In fact Christians are supposed to teach the Gospel with "gentleness and respect". I believe the things I posted above because they are TRUE. Only a simple look at history will show what not only the early Christians believed ,but what they were up against. Again you bring up "religious wars". The Crusades were mostly political ,and were not inspired in the least by the teachings of Christianity. I'll give you Islam's Jihad ,but the Crusades were quite different. Israel was at one point commanded by God to go to war ,but that was a one time deal involving the Promised Land ,and wasn't an eternal command to wipe out all people who disbelieved in God.The Bible does have things in it that can never be proved right or wrong ,but on everything else it is ALWAYS SHOWN TO BE RIGHT. Early on archaeologists attacked the Bible in it's assertion of a people known as the Hittites. Archaeologists couldn't find them and boldly declared that the Bible was wrong because there were no Hittites. I didn't take long after that they found an ENTIRE HITTITE CITY. Even the city of Jericho has been found in exactly the same condition one would expect to find if what the Bible says in it's account is true.(The walls are crumbled in all ,but one place this would be where the prostitute Rahab's family lived ,and the city is burnt with nearly all of it's stores of grain intact. This means that the siege in which the city was attacked was extremely short. This is very unusual for a city with such highly fortified walls as Jericho.)
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 15, 2011
I would ask you to give an example of this "bigotry and exclusivism" being taught by Jesus or anywhere in the NT. No one is excluded from becoming a Christian. Christians are taught to love their neighbors as themselves. They are even taught to love their ENEMIES for crying out loud. How is this excluding anyone? Everyone has a choice in whether or not they will follow Jesus. There are no special qualifiers you have to meet. Jesus will accept anyone who is willing to accept Him. How is any of this bigoted? Jesus will not reject anyone that doesn't reject Him. It's a simple choice follow Jesus or reject Him. Everyone no matter what their background ,gender , or skin color will be equally accepted by Jesus. Where is the exclusivism in that? Jesus will not turn away anyone who truly seeks Him. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that the Christian has accepted Jesus as their savior. Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
This shows that ALL who have accepted Christ are one regardless of who they are. There then becomes only one difference between Christian and non-Christian and that is simple acceptance of Jesus. Where is the bigotry and exclusivism in this? Your charge of Christians being bigoted and exclusivistic is without foundation.
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 15, 2011
I would like to clarify something. I am not saying that there aren't people who claim to be Christian who will act like bigots ,but they are not following the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. Remember you need to look at what is taught rather than some persons failure to live up to what they claim to believe in. You will find people with these attitudes everywhere you go ,but are they really living up to Christian teaching? That is the real question. Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
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house keeping anyone?
written by aaki , December 15, 2011
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16192494

1 in 5 women raped or attempted rape over her lifetime.

1 in 4 assaulted!

Glass houses n all that!
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this is reality
written by aaki , December 15, 2011
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15193530

not a theological argument!
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AAKI'S GONE NUTTY !
written by Scrutator , December 15, 2011
Aaki, why do you bring in CRIMINAL OFFENCES committed in the West ? ...... These are punishable by substantial jail sentences for the men who committed them !

Under Islam, discrimination against women is RELIGIOUSLY SANCTIONED ! ..... That is the difference between modern democratic countries and muslim states !

For all one knows, there probably an equal or higher number of rapes committed against women in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc. ..... the vast majority of these don't get reported, for under the infamous HUDOOD LAWS the raped woman herself is locked up and charged with adultery, unless she can produce four male witnesses to her rape ! ..... do you or any sensible person that is possible ? .... will the rapist rape the muslim woman when four males are around ? Hence, the raped woman keeps quiet suffering the sexual violence against herself in silence.

This is another injustice suffered by muslim women and adds to the six mentioned by me above.

THE TRUTH IS, ISLAM IS A MALE-FAVOURING CULT !!

Can you get this fact into that thick skull of yours ?

Btw, you have strangely quiet about the 6 points of inferior Quranic laws and oppression muslim woen suffer !

Do the decent thing mate, come out of Islam ! ...... it cannot be reformed, revised or changed !
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spelling mistakes
written by Scrutator , December 15, 2011
Sorry about the spelling mistakes in my above comment, it was written in a hurry !
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Is Allah a JUST God
written by kahn , December 15, 2011
Although not related to the topic i want to mention a bigotory of islam that bothers me. Muslims claim that allah is All Knowing, All Just, All Powerful but i dont believe this. When Iblees (shaitan) refused to allah's order to bow a human and he insulted allah in front of all creatures, allah did not (or could not ) punish Iblees, instead allah granted him time to spread evil among humans upon Iblees request.

Instead of punishing Iblees for his crime or disobedience, How come allah allow Iblees to spread evil?

Can a supreme judge HIMSELF ALLOW a PROVEN CRIMINAL to continue his evil activities (until qayamat) upon

the criminal's request???????

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Is Allah a JUST God
written by kahn , December 15, 2011
My point is can we relate such a thing i.e "to allow or permit someone to spread evil" to God?
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Bundy pays?
written by Malem , December 15, 2011
Who gets paid for posting here? I never heard about that, but would surely welcome the money I could use if towards zakat.

A few small versus that indicate that men lead the family and can instill discipline where they feel it is needed. That is what has you so upset? Sounds to me like you are not looking at reality. If you see that since the dawn of time that men have traditionally led the family, you are living in a sheltered world. This is not a Muslim invention rather it has been within most. Christianity, Jewish, etc. Socially men have always led the family, just look around at the past several thousand years. Now can a woman admonish her husband if he is disrespectful or displaying bad behavior? Sure she can there is nothing saying she cannot. Show me where in the Koran it says that Woman have no right to critique their husbands behavior or discipline her children etc.. It does not exist. The idea that women have no rights in Islam is a made up tale and one that is carried along by fools with no knowledge of the religion. There is no place in the Koran where discrimination against woman exists at all. In fact if anything the Islamic tradition has always been to worship women and protect them. This is the opposite of many cultures that despise woman, like in India where they would rather abort the child if it is femal, etc..

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Screwtator
written by aaki , December 15, 2011
What's up? Don't like what you see in the mirror?
Before you start ranting and embarassing yourself do some Reading.

Sharia law
by abdur Rahman doi
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Malem or Mullah
written by kahn , December 15, 2011
@Malem

"Now can a woman admonish her husband if he is disrespectful or displaying bad behavior? Sure she can there is nothing saying she cannot"

Malem show me ONE verse from Koran where it says a woman can admonish her husband if he is disrespectful or cheating on her she can separate her bed?

Show me the verse and today i will accept islam and if you cant than plz shut the f**k up. You are a typical pakistani mullah.
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Zakat for Muslims
written by kahn , December 15, 2011
@Malem

Malem do you really believe that zakat or charity or US aid or IMF aid or ADB aid can change the situation of pakistanis or the muslims at large.

You are the biggest idiot. Muslims get billions of dollars every year but they do not progress a inch rather they are going backwards every passing day.

Money cannot benefit muslims only you will change the day you start thinking rationally i.e out of religious box.
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thanks supervisors...
written by bundypig , December 15, 2011
for taking my comments away, what the f*ck was the problem
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AAKI, YOU A TYPICAL MUSLIM !
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
"Screwtator
written by aaki, December 15, 2011
What's up? Don't like what you see in the mirror?
Before you start ranting and embarassing yourself do some Reading.

Sharia law
by abdur Rahman doi"

You ought to be pitied Aaki !
Like all other muslims, when you cannot discuss logically, you resort to abuse and swearing !

WHY DON'T YOU RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THE SIX ISSUES PLUS ONE POINT MENTIONED ABOVE IN A LOGICAL MANNER ? ABOUT ISLAM'S OPPRESSION OF WOMEN ?

The Sharia is based completely on the Quran; many muslims say the Sharia has no value, only what's in the Quran counts ! Whatever the case maybe, all of the indignities suffered by muslim women is drawn from the Quran.

AND REMEMBER, "ALLAH KNOWS BEST" CANNOT BE A RESPONSE !

Also, don't go on a long drawn out futile semantic exercise, be brief and to the point while dealing with the issues raised here.


I am waiting for your responses.
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@ Malem
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
Malem, you write
" Now can a woman admonish her husband if he is disrespectful or displaying bad behavior? Sure she can there is nothing saying she cannot."

Malem, a muslim CANNOT GO BY WHAT IS NOT WRTTEN IN THE QURAN !

He/she goes by what IS in the Quran !!

And the Quran DOES NOT say a woman can admonish/beat/scourge her husband if he's cheating or otherwise misbehaving !!!

Get it ?
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Scrutator
written by aaki , December 16, 2011
Screwtator
written by aaki, December 15, 2011
What's up? Don't like what you see in the mirror?
Before you start ranting and embarassing yourself do some Reading.

Sharia law
by abdur Rahman doi"

You ought to be pitied Aaki !
Like all other muslims, when you cannot discuss logically, you resort to abuse and swearing !

Abuse and swearing????????
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Scrutator
written by aaki , December 16, 2011
I gave you a solid reference. Each of the points are adressed.
How do you expect me to condense a chapter if writing into a few lines and maintain the message. Good try though phobe.
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Scrutator
written by aaki , December 16, 2011
"Malem, a muslim CANNOT GO BY WHAT IS NOT WRTTEN IN THE QURAN !"
poppycock! That is drivel and you know it is.
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Bundypig
written by aaki , December 16, 2011
The don't like comments from a pig. Even the moderators are sick of you!
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@ Malem
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
Malem you write
"The idea that women have no rights in Islam is a made up tale and one that is carried along by fools with no knowledge of the religion. There is no place in the Koran where discrimination against woman exists at all."

Really ?

Based on points written earlier, I'll show you how Quran discriminates against muslim women:

(1) A man can BEAT/SCOURGE his wife on “mere suspicion of rebillion”, a muslim woman cannot do the same to her husband.

(2) A muslim man can marry a Christian/Jewish/muslim woman (without converting the first two to Islam), a muslim woman can only marry a muslim man.

(3) A muslim man has been given the "triple talaq" facility in the Quran ( without assigning any reason for it), a muslim woman has no triple-talaq facility given to her.

(4) A muslim man inherits twice what his sister(s) get from deceased parents' estate, according to the Quran.

(5) In an Islamic court, a man's witness is worth that of two women.

(6) A muslim man can have up to four wives simultaneously, while a muslim woman can have only one spouse at any one time.

(7) The Quran allows a muslim man additional sexual partners (besides his wife or wives) in the form of slaves/concubines ("right hand possessions"), while a muslim wife can only have the one one husband for herself.

(8) The Quran says a wife must have the husband's permission before leaving the house, while the husband needs no such permission from his wife for leaving his house.

(9) According to the Quran, a husband must confine his wife inside a locked room for "lewd" behaviour till " she starves to death or Allah decides otherwise". Where does it say a muslim wife has the right to do the same with a cheating/lecherous husband ?

For more such discriminatory rules, refer to the Quran ( these rules are explained in detail in the Hadiths).

IF THIS IS NOT DISCRIMINATION AGAINST A MUSLIM WOMAN, PRAY WHAT IS ?

Malem, please respond to the above in a calm, logical manner.

Note, "Allah knows best" cannot be a response !
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hahaha
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
Go back to sleep grasshopper, you're being slaughtered by Scrutator, wake up and smell the coffee kid
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why tell me...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
do you keep taking my posts?
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Pig
written by Moderator , December 16, 2011
Because you are an ignorant pig
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MUSLIM RESPONSE
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
Whenever a non-muslim tries to discuss rules emanating from the Quran in a calm, logical and rational manner, muslims call it RANTING and INTENSE HATRED AGAINST ISLAM !

Do pointing out well-known facts from the Quran equal showing intense hatred ?

Why do they say that ? ... are they not normal human beings like the rest of humanity ?


Aaki, Malem etc, will you like to answer that ?

Note: Yes aaki, I have looked at the mirror this morning !
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are you...
written by Associate to allah , December 16, 2011
just being a smart ass aaki boy are are you just stupid?
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...
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
"written by M. A. Khan, editor, December 05, 2011
It is not so important whether beating is hard or soft. Yes, it is more symbolic. Sometimes, people can be beaten and they may still feel proud.

In a marriage, husband and wife should equal in rights and dignity. Giving husband the right to beat his wife destroys the wife's dignity and equality. That's where lies the main problem of Islam's wife-beating command.

Just think about it the other way. If the Quran gives only your wife the right to beat you, how would you feel? It's not the pain of beating that will matter so much to you, but the humiliation and indignity caused to you when she beats you that would matter most.
"

Very well said, Sir !

Thanks for the excellent but unpaid work you are doing on this website !
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@Scrutator
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
they really can't answer anything without their lies and half truths, malman and reed don't accept hadith and aaki can't read yet ;)
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associate
written by aaki , December 16, 2011
Don't worry, bundy can take it. He is a big boy.
Usually has the Tongue of a sailor when his posts get through.
I'm sure he has destroyed his laptop in anger by now!
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lol...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
nah, just went and got another beer you dopey kid...so how's it hanging
tongue of a sailor, thought y'all were the ones with the pearly boys in heaven hahahha
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@ Ahmed Hamed agamy
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
Ahmed Hamed agamy, you write

".......now, if you do understand what it really means, you would know, that the husband would hit her in a manner i would call "symbolic" which is gently and definitely painlessly,......."


Two points arise:

(1) It is a question of EQUALITY of rights between a man and a woman, simple ! If a woman does not have that right, a man should not have it either !

(2) The Quran says "BEAT/SCOURGE" the wife, it does not say to beat her 'symbolically', 'softly' or 'with a tooth brush' !

From the second point flows the fact that muslim women get beaten in a variety of ways, from 'softly' to 'giving a good thrashing' and by all means in between this range, especially in the Middle East and on the Indian subcontinent !!!
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womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
0
womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
0
womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
0
womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
0
womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
0
womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
0
womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
0
so if your not...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
trying to hide, address these posts aaki?
Lies and half truths not permitted, just the facts, your wonderful ideology allows this and you try and talk it away
0
oh, and if you want...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
some more, I'm loaded, so simple actually, islam is a zombie fed ideology and you're not intelligent enough to even try and be like normal, freedom loving people. That will be your downfall!
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this is a killer...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
this is the current level of civility in islamic theory, the taliban, tally me bananas, what a bunch of freaking monsters

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/12/taliban-cut-nursing-womans-breast-asked-others-to-eat-pieces.html
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where are you...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
getting a little hard for you now eh aaki?
Come on and explain all this to us, womens rights in islam, where's malman when you need him. probably getting it on in a 3 way lol
To even think that heaven is about sex is sorta stupid, eternal hard-ons, what must mo have been thinking,to ruin a whole bunch of people with that load of crap. but the really idiotic part is that you believe it...hahaha
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he's probably...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
masturbating after reading of all this sexy muslim stuff, wanted to get a bite of titty did ya son?
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Bundy
written by aaki , December 16, 2011
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16201961

you missed one. Getting slow in your old age?
"went to get a beer" yeah right like you have a fridge.
More like moonshine from the bathtub whilst whistling Dixie!

But seriously all the stories show that there are fcukwits on the planet.
I can paste loads of stuff non Muslims do and blame it on Christianity, Hinduism etc etc. I know full well most are not like that.
0
like the man said...
written by bundypig , December 16, 2011
in an enlightened society, these man would be tried and if convicted, spend a long time in jail
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@ Aaki : GET REAL !
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
"written by aaki, December 16, 2011
.........But seriously all the stories show that there are fcukwits on the planet.
I can paste loads of stuff non Muslims do and blame it on Christianity, Hinduism etc etc. I know full well most are not like that."


Is that the best you can come up with, aaki ?

Give your reasoned answers to all of the 9 points I've raised above.

Btw, Christianity, Hinduism and all other non-Islamic religions might be full of holes and mistakes, THAT STILL DOES NOT EXPLAIN THE DISCRIMINATION THE QURAN HEAPS ON MUSLIM WOMEN !

Now, don't avoid the issue with your silly comments, address them seriously !
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@ Bundypig
written by Scrutator , December 16, 2011
written by bundypig, December 16, 2011
they really can't answer anything without their lies and half truths, malman and reed don't accept hadith and aaki can't read yet ;)


Bundypig, you're absolutely correct, right on the money, mate !
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@ aaki
written by Cererum123 , December 16, 2011
Yeah aaki I would also like answers to the list of questions I had above. So far you have only even tried to answer 1 and I showed you that your link had already been refuted. I don't know enough about what Hinduism teaches ,but the kinds of things you mentioned earlier and said you could blame them on Christians and Hindus ,there is a1 major difference. Christianity (like I said I don't know enough about Hinduism's teachings to make a statement) teaches AGAINST the things you put above ,and therefor you can't blame Christianity for a person who takes these actions. This is different from Islam ,because Islam teaches and ENCOURAGES this kind of thing. It is more pronounced in the hadith ,but the Quran has these things in them too. Your own Quran says that "Allah guides whom he wills and leads astray whom he wills." Aaki how can you be sure that it is not the Muslims who are being led astray?. Also Iblis has from what I can tell a real complaint against Allah when he said that Allah deceived him. Allah first of all only told the angels to bow down and worship Adam ,and Iblis is not an angel ,but a Jinn ,and second Allah was commanding that the angels WORSHIP a created being. Isn't worshiping anyone other than Allah shirk? Isn't this the worst sin in Islam? Why would Iblis do something he knew was considered to be the worst of sins? Why is he being punished (and mankind along with him since he has chosen to deceive all of mankind) for AVOIDING the worst sin in Islam? Does this really make sense for Allah to do? And wouldn't that mean that Iblis was right in not worshiping Adam? Then there is the issue of predestination. You earlier quoted a Quran verse that says that regardless of whether or not someone is warned about their eternal fate they will not listen. Doesn't this mean that Muslims should leave all of us kafir alone ,and not even try to convert us to Islam? Why was Mohammed sent to warn people if no one could ever actually choose to follow Islam on their own accord? Doesn't this make the job of a prophet pointless since no one gets to make the choice themselves anyway? Doesn't this mean that even if we truly wanted to avoid hell we couldn't because we are already predestined to go there? Allah did say that he CREATED certain people for the fires of hell. Doesn't this imply that they never had a choice in the matter? How is this merciful? Doesn't this mean that everything we do or say or ever have done or said is directly Allah's will and not our own? Doesn't this mean that the sins we commit are actually Allah's sins since we didn't choose them ,but he did? If they are truly Allah's sins then why should we have to suffer the consequences since we never actually chose to commit them? In light of this does Allah really seem just and merciful? These are just a few of my concerns about Islam and the character of Allah. I have so far seen no reasonable answer to any of these questions. Please at least try and answer some of them.
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@ Non believer
written by Cererum123 , December 16, 2011
My first post never got through so I am going to try and remember what I said and put it in here.

Constantine was on the scene late to be credited with the massive spreading of the Gospel. Also before him I can't think of ANY rulers that were in favor of Christianity. In fact the Romans were notorious for their persecution of Christians (Nero for example). The things against the spread of Christianity were much more staggering than you realize. The ONLY reason Christianity is even around today is because of the fact that the events described in the Gospel REALLY HAPPENED. We are dealing with eyewitness accounts written with in a few decades of the events in question. No other ancient document even comes near the attestation that the NT has. Without a REAL resurrection ,and a REAL redemption Christianity WOULD NOT EXIST AT ALL. Society was quite different back then. The people were very interested in each other's lives and would be able to check into someone's story very easily especially if it involved someone who was either famous or in power. The Gospels claim over 500 eyewitnesses to Jesus' ascension. In the kind of communities people lived in back then this would be extremely easy to confirm or disprove. The early Christians would have died out immediately if they were making this stuff up. I would ask you to go to a website for tekton ministries and use their search for the article The Impossible Faith (whenever I try to give a direct link my post is eaten so google this please. It shouldn't be hard to find). We are dealing with real verifiable history here (for everything other than certain miracles) ,and not myths written hundreds of years after the fact. We are dealing with real historical figures who are verified by even secular historians(some of these historians were even quite hostile towards Christianity).
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@ Gnostic part 2
written by Cererum123 , December 16, 2011
Goo to you evolution is not in the realm of empirical science. It cannot be tested, repeated ,or observed. Other than a few debatable "transitional forms" ,there is no evidence in support of goo to you evolution. Most things that I have seen used as proof for GTY evolution are either hoaxes or are a bait and switch for natural selection. Even archaeopteryx is fully functional and doesn't have a transition say between scales and feathers (massively different structures) ,and no one even has an example of what such a transitional "sceather" would look like. DNA is against GTY evolution the fossil record is against it and even just plain common sense is against it. After all if the universe is an accident ,our solar system is an accident ,evolution of life on our planet is an accident, the evolution of man is an accident ,and even our very brains and their chemistry is an accident ,then why should we trust something that came into being through nothing but accidents to tell us where not only this product of accident came from ,but where everything else came from as well? C.S. Lewis said that " I see no reason that one accident should be able to give me the correct account of all of the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk jug should give you the correct account of how the milk jug was made and how it was upset." Evolution if true nullifies any trustworthiness in the ability of mankind to reason and makes every though an accident that cannot be trusted by anyone.
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Re: Cererum123
written by Gnostic , December 16, 2011
Yawn. Yawn. Yawn.
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@ Gnostic
written by Cererum123 , December 17, 2011
So hearing the truth is boring you huh? You claimed that Christianity was against science ,this is false ,and modern science is founded on Biblical presuppositions. Modern science was founded by Christians and some of the greatest scientists ever were Christians (Isaac Newton ,Francis Bacon ,Galileo,Johannes Kepler etc. or more recently Dr. Raymond Damadian who invented the MRI.) GTY evolution is the myth of the atheist. Christians do give money in support of a cure for AIDS ,but it is true that simply by practicing abstinence is the best way to avoid getting AIDS.Isn't an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure? There are innocent victims of AIDS and they need the cure. These people are the one's who were either born with it or got it from a bad needle or blood transfusion(accidents like this do happen in hospitals.) We don't have a cure yet though so the best thing to do is to take the only real steps you can to prevent AIDS and that is abstinence. GTY evolution is a myth that goes all the way back to the Romans and Greeks. It's not some new idea based on sound scientific research. In fact all Darwin did was make it popular(even though his book on it was filled with scientific errors). Some of this was my basic idea for part 1 of my above post which has been eaten.
The reason you yawn is because you have nothing to say in your defense. This is in some way an appeal to emotion fallacy. An attack with no substance because you have no argument. Duh is the same way when I spoke with him previously. He may not realize it ,but he responded quite similarly to Malem when he responded to me. Mostly ad hominem attacks and obfuscation. This is common practice for those who have no way of defending their position. I was hoping you would at least try to respond instead of dismissing me altogether. I do try to stay on the topic of Islam ,but there are certain people who mike wild unsubstantiated claims about Christianity and I try to clear up the misinformation. Archpagan while misinformed on several subjects at least is willing to have a rational discussion. Sadly, I don't find many people willing to do this.
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Belived
written by Muhammad Khalid , December 17, 2011
I believed in Quran because it Allah order.But we cannot understand firstly what Allah want to order us if we take keen interest and read carefully we easly under stand.1) It is a question of EQUALITY of rights between a man and a woman, simple ! If a woman does not have that right, a man should not have it either !

(2) The Quran says "BEAT/SCOURGE" the wife, it does not say to beat her 'symbolically', 'softly' or 'with a tooth brush' !

From the second point flows the fact that muslim women get beaten in a variety of ways, from 'softly' to 'giving a good thrashing' and by all means in between this range, especially in the Middle East and on the Indian subcontinent !!!
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More practice of Quranic guiadance and inspirations
written by Mozlem , December 17, 2011
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a confused deity
written by anders , December 17, 2011
Its true. . Iblis was more God then Allah. Iblis refused idol worship . Now why would Allah demand idol worship ? Not grea ,tbut a rather confused and disappointing deity
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cerebrum
written by aaki , December 17, 2011
im hoping my message will come through.
the moderator has it.
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@ aaki & malem & reed
written by Scrutator , December 17, 2011
Hi, you guys did not reply to my post above !
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@ Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 17, 2011
“May all be happy in the world and let no one suffer from disease and be sad. May no one keep ill will towards another being? May all be liberal and compassionate? All humans of the world are our relatives” - ‘Basudhaiva Kutumbakam’.

Those are from prayers we chant. I will not consider you a righteous or religious person if you do not accept the above principle. No matter, how assiduously you follow Koran or Bible. The above is the version of Humanism. There should be no condition of adopting someone as sole savior. When you put up a pre-condition of adopting Jesus Christ or Koran that turns into Roman or Arabic imperialism. Jesus Christ accepts all but Christians do no accept someone who accepts some other divinity as savior. This is exclusivism. Also, the Christians rule out possibility of an alternative divinity as Christianity does not permit exploration of Truth. This is called bigotry. You can not fight one bigotry with another bigotry.

Christianity abhors and dreads free thinking. Apart from persecution of Galileo many great thinkers of the west were excommunicated by the Church. Those include Baruch Spinoza, John Locke, David Hume, Immanuel Kant and Rene Des carte et al. It is no surprise that many great thinkers of the west e. g. Ralph Waldo Emersion and H. D. Thoreau of the USA and Schopenhauer and Nietzsche of Germany were attracted to the Vedic philosophy.
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La te da...
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
this is like shooting fish in a barrel

womens rights...

in islam
#8 http://english.pravda.ru/world..._arabia-0/
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womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
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womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
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womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
in islam

#11 http://www.emirates247.com/new...7-1.433130

the real muslim beauties
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womens rights...
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
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and here's a good one for you boys
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
http://www.faithfreedom.org/ar...d-kingdom/

No honour killing/attacks huh? Don't look that way to most people with any common sense. So piss off to some mus # and give it up, your beaten badly, Scrutator has your number, and btw, why can't you answer his simple questions? It's time for malman to dismount his wives and answer, with his all knowing, koran sh*t...hahaha
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Greating to aditer and all readers ....I am back
written by fineliving56 , December 18, 2011
in perfect time to read about my most hated and loved subjects ...sort off beatings of Muslim women in Islam very interacting postings. I just came back from Syria still dizzy from the time change ...I have a lot to share.... I am lucky to be a life... and lucky to have a home here in America to come back to, without the constant fear form harm...I left a whole big family who does.

fineliving56
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welcome home
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
glad your back safe!!
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@ Arcpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 18, 2011
The above prayer is very interesting. I agree with all points except maybe the being liberal (but this could be just because of my understanding of the word "liberal". It may be meaning something different than what I mean when I say liberal.) The thing is Jesus PROVED He was divine ,and since He is God ,and God can't lie this means that when He said that the only way to the Father was through Him , that there is no other way. Jesus taught the truth ,and Christianity encourages thinking. Galileo wasn't persecuted by the Church for going against the Bible. He was persecuted (mostly by scientists of his day) for going against what was accepted as "science". This was the Ptolemaic model of the solar system. This is much like people who are Christian who are attacked by scientists (and some fellow Christians) for rejecting Darwinian Evolution. People just didn't learn their lesson ,and still trust what is accepted as a "fact of science" over the evidence. Most people accept evolution as "fact" and reject the mountains of evidence in support of a young universe ,and a global flood just as depicted in the Bible. The Bible encourages free thinking ,it encourages the pursuit of truth ,and encourages mankind to accept each other as brothers.1 Thessalonians 5:21
but test them all; hold on to what is good, Of the people who were excommunicated by the Church I would check what reasons they were excommunicated for. Spinoza was excommunicated for heresy. Although the exact details are unknown in some of his later works he shows that he indeed had thoughts and beliefs contrary to the Bible (since the Bible is truth denying it is the same as denying the truth). Now if you have someone in your Church denying the truth and spreading lies would you truly still want something to do with them? I can't find details on all of these people or the reasons for their excommunications ,but you haven't shown that they didn't deserve it. Nietzsche was someone who wanted to simply throw morals out the window. In fact one of the people who followed him later was Hitler. Hitler was Nietzsche's Ubermensch. A man who made his own morals and followed evolutionary philosophy. Nietzsche is a BAD influence ,and may be admired ,but is certainly not a great thinker.
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didn't Jesus say...
written by bundypig , December 18, 2011
somewhere in the New Testament, "my Father's mansion has many doorways"?
Seems like to cut people off from *heaven* , especially Hindu's, as a lot of them have very high morals and help a lot of people, seems sorta lame?
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To Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 18, 2011
Non Believer rightly asserted that Christianity spread in ancient Rome by means of brute force. Same is true of what is called the 'Latin America'. I would request you to Google search http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Decline_of _Hellenistic _polytheism. Hitler's political party was named 'National Socialist Party'. It was a conglomeration of two opposite ideologies- Paganism and Socialism. The former encourages racial supremacy while the latter advocates ideological arrogance. Hitler was able to combine the two very well to establish his murderous regime which caused human suffering of gigantic proportion. Ideological arrogance of the socialists can be traced back to the Judeo-Christian principle.
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'fineliving56 : WELCOME BACK !
written by Scrutator , December 19, 2011
"written by fineliving56, December 18, 2011
in perfect time to read about my most hated and loved subjects ...sort off beatings of Muslim women in Islam very interacting postings. I just came back from Syria still dizzy from the time change ...I have a lot to share.... I am lucky to be a life... and lucky to have a home here in America to come back to, without the constant fear form harm...I left a whole big family who does.


Glad you are back safely, fineliving56 ! WELCOME HOME !!

Have been missing your comments !!!
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@ fineliving56 and bundypig
written by Cererum123 , December 19, 2011
It's good to see you again fineliving56. I was hoping I would see you back on here sometime.Knowing what little I do about your situation I'm very glad to see you back on.

@ bundypig

This is what Jesus actually said John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

The word used there is rooms not doors. It is often translated as mansions as well. This is to show that there is a place in heaven for those who follow Jesus Christ. I understand how it can be difficult to accept that someone who seems like such a good person to us could still not end up in heaven ,but here are a few things you need to know. There is nothing we can do as humans to justify ourselves before God. God is a God of love ,but also He is Holy ,and requires justice. Our sin is something that must be paid for in order that God's justice be satisfied. We have the option of accepting that Jesus paid that penalty on the cross ,or we can reject Him and pay that penalty ourselves. No matter how good someone may seem to us ,they are still sinful in God's eye's. We have all sinned at some point in our lives ,and that separates us from God. The only way back to a relationship with God is to cover that sin. Jesus' atonement on the cross covers our sin ,and imputes His righteousness to us. It may not seem fair to us ,but anyone who rejects Jesus is rejecting God Himself ,and is refusing the free gift of salvation that Jesus offers. In the OT the only way to make up for sin was to sacrifice animals. However since animals are imperfect ,and finite ,they had to be continually sacrificed on a regular basis. Jesus being the "Perfect Sacrifice" ,was both perfect ,and being God was also infinite. This means that animal sacrifice is no longer needed. Like I said above there is no special requirement one has to meet to follow Jesus ,and Jesus will accept ANYBODY who is willing to accept Him. It comes down to whether or not someone is going to reject God ,and follow their own way ,or whether they will accept God and follow Him. I guess the best way I can sum this up is that sin is a disease that we all have ,and Jesus has the only cure. He gave up EVERYTHING to pay for this cure ,and will gladly give it to us. All we have to do is take the cure(which is simply accepting that Jesus is God ,and that He died to save us from our sins). If someone has a disease ,and the cure is easily and readily available ,but they are unwilling to take it then they are responsible when that disease comes to it's logical conclusion(as in the case of sin this would be hell ,and eternal separation from the God who created you).

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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 19, 2011
@ Archpagan

God is the one who created you ,and ultimately you are accountable to Him. If He decides to have a condition that you need to meet(the condition that needs to be met in order to go to heaven is perfection ,which no human can do on their own) , He has every right to enforce the penalty that comes when that condition isn't met. Since we are unable to actually meet this necessary requirement He came to us in the person of Jesus Christ ,and fulfilled that condition Himself. He is willing to impute that condition to us on the simple condition that we accept this free gift. God as the Creator has the right to hold us accountable for our actions. Also just because you need to accept Jesus to become Christian doesn't mean that you need to do so in order for a Christian to treat you as their neighbor. This is different from Islam which teaches to treat other believers kindly and unbelievers with contempt and hatred.
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Welcome home, fineliving56
written by Yibel , December 19, 2011
So glad you returned safe and sound. My prayers go out to your family. These are the times that try men's (and women's) souls.

May God hold you, and yours, in the palm of His hand.
Yibel
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To Archpagan
written by Yibel , December 19, 2011
A very lovely prayer!

May all be happy in the world and let no one suffer from disease and be sad.
This is also the will of YHVH: Moses, His prophet said: See, I have set before you this day life and good... if you will walk in His ways, and keep His commandmants... (Deuteronomy 30)

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord YHVH, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. - Amos 9:13

May no one keep ill will towards another being!
This also is the commandment of YHVH: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Luke 10: 29-37)

May all be liberal and compassionate.
The commandment of YHVH: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31)

All humans of the world are our relatives - Basudhaiva Kutumbakam.

Christians are commanded: love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again: and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father YHVH is also merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give and it shall be given unto you: good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over... (Luke 635-38)

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father YHVH with his angels: and then he shall reward EVERY man according to his WORKS. (Matthew 16:27)

And they shall come from the east and the west and the north and the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of YHVH. (Luke 13:29)
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To Malem
written by lw1 , December 19, 2011
Can you quote the sura in Quran which says that women are to be worshipped?
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----
written by Archpagan , December 19, 2011
My post to Cerebrum 123 has been blocked.
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 20, 2011
Maybe if you try again with slightly different wording you can get it through. I have had to change some of my posts a little bit to get them through. The site administrator is very finicky as I'm sure you have experienced. Sometimes the only reason it eats something is because you have posted a few times already ,and it thinks the post is spam. Archpagan I would like to take this time to thank you for actually having an honest discussion. I don't get that too often (I'm not just talking here ,but in general.) Even though we disagree I do find that talking with you helps me to better understand you as a person. This can only lead to better and deeper discussions than the previous ones. You do seem to have some misinformation about Christianity though. For historical information about Christianity I find that a good website belongs to Tekton Ministries. Google them and you should be able to find good information that can clear up your misconceptions about what Christianity really is ,and what is really taught. I would like to ask for a good site that explains Hindu teachings. Ever since I started studying Islam I have wanted to study other religions too ,but I don't know of a good reliable site to get this information. Anyway I hope your post gets put up soon or a version accepted by this site.
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@archpagan and cerebum I found a good christian website
written by Mozlem , December 20, 2011
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
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@ Mozlem
written by Cererum123 , December 20, 2011
Only a few fringe fanatics deny the existence of Jesus now. Real historical scholarship (even secular scholarship) shows overwhelmingly in support of Jesus being a real historical figure ,and if you really dig you will find overwhelming evidence of the crucifixion and Resurrection as well. These are established historical facts. People will deny the Resurrection until the end of time ,but less and less people are denying the existence of Jesus. The Gospels and the NT are the most well attested ancient documents we have. To deny Jesus' existence (especially with all of the evidence in support of it ,not to mention that we have far less evidence of any other historical figure from the ancient world) would be to the same as denying the existence of pretty much every great person in our ancient history. If you throw out the immense evidence of Jesus' existence then anything with less proof would have to be thrown out too. This would throw out nearly all of our ancient history ,and we would effectively know nothing about our past. I suggest you go to Tekton Ministries website (when I give an exact linke my post gets eaten ,so just google Tekton ministries). They thoroughly refute such things as Jesus being a myth or taken from pagan mythology all the way to Jesus being an Essene. They also show the massive evidence for the reliablity of the Gospels ,and NT. The Gospels themselves were written no later then 70A.D. (although it is possible that the Gospel of John was written a little later). Again to deny the existence of Jesus as a historical figure based on the amount of evidence would be to throw out nearly all ancient historical figures as well ,because the Gospels and NT are the most well attested historical documents in existence.
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Welcome back
written by Malem , December 20, 2011
While I dont agree with many of your postings it is good you were able to make it out without harm. I was in Safita only a few months back visiting some relatives and friends and it is a terrible situation there and it has nothing to do with Islam, rather a dictator doing anything to hold onto power.

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Swami,Dito,Mozlem,Yibel,bundypig,scrutator,cererum 123 and all posters
written by fineliving56 , December 20, 2011
I thank you all for your good wishes and concern for me …it really made me feel good …I made it back from there in one peace, but I left my heart over their in fear for my family …no one was killed that I know, but I have friends who lost loved ones for the fight for the change that has to be done weather we wanted it or not …there is no choice.
One thousand Syrian is being murdered monthly …so far 8 thousand are dead since the uprising has started and there is end in site.
I talked to a doctor who was getting ready to flee with his family but decided to stay because as he told me, thinks are going to be solved after there is news from sure sources, that Basher Asaad is leaving to exile, some where with his family and the uprising in Syria, will be solved politicly with the help from the UN ….of course I did not believe a word of it like very one else I told, because the killing hasn't stopped since than.
The God I know is watching the falling bodies with no reaction, proves to me our God has no control with our actions and powerless to help us…. muslims and Christians Syrians alike …I am convinced it is up to us …if God is able to help, IT would have done something long a go I know Mosques and churches back home are full daily with worshippers but the killing of children is continuing with no mercy ...it is heart braking.
So many things happened worth telling I will talk about eventually hopefully it give an idea of what is going on in that part of the world .

D, Swami
Reading previous posts, I have not seen any of your wonderful and funny posts …I hope you have just been busy or on vacation and you will back soon …take care .
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To Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 20, 2011
Oh! My post dated 19-12-11 has appeared now with hyperlink. Your opinion about persecution of Galileo may be true. In India astronomer Arybhatta (476-550 CE) propounded the theory of earth’s rotation on its own axis causing day and night. But his contemporary mathematician Brahmagupta who gave a qualitative idea of gravity, ridiculed such theory with the observation that a flying bird will then never reach its nest. Actually, in those days it was extremely difficult to conceptualize an atmosphere fixed to earth by the force of Gravity moving along with it. I agree that Christian Church as an institution did not oppose science. But the impetus for scientific research and rational thought came from Greco-Roman civilization not Christianity. Many Hindus visit Church, respectfully treating Jesus Christ as a sage who preached love and piety, although, they do not consider him as sole savior of mankind. But modern Christians do not reciprocate with same liberalism towards the Hindus.

British Christians who established Indian empire were quite different. Governors and high officials of the early British Empire freely participated in Hindu socio-cultural and religious activities (Durga puja in particular). Some of them even made votive gifts to Hindu temples on fulfillment of wish. So the Hindus became instrumental in the establishment of the Empire and actively supported it. But, things took a reverse turn since 1840 CE when the British Authority under pressure from Padres prohibited British high officials from participating in Hindu religious festivals. So, 1857 CE saw the great mutiny and anti-British sentiments rose high since the 1870’s which culminated in the end of British rule over India.

Inter-religious dialogue will be meaningless unless there is some common moral space. If you preach that all non-Christians will go straight to hell, I shall be deprived of any moral ground to stand upon. I would like you to think over it. If you want to know about Hinduism I would suggest that you Google search ‘The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Hinduism by Ms Linda Johnsen’. Some Hindu sites are hinduismtoday.com, Dharmacentral.com, hafsite.org etc.

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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 21, 2011
You're idea that modern science was founded upon Greek ,and Roman philosophy is incorrect. The Greeks ,and Romans (while they did have some amazing accomplishments) did not really have science ,they had philosophy. They wouldn't go out and try to find out how things actually do work ,they would simply speculate on how things "ought" to work. The scientific method was actually invented by Francis Bacon. Only under the Biblical presuppositions (That the universe was created by a logical God ,and that man being made in God's image which allows us to use our reason (incorrectly sometimes) to understand the universe around us.) The Greeks ,and Romans did not have these basic presuppositions necessary for the foundation of modern science. They had their own gods who were not logical ,not consistent ,and always quarreling with each other. Under these beliefs there is no reason to believe that things should work consistently from day to day. Since these gods were so arbitrary in their actions there was no foundation for real science to begin.
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@ Archpagan part 2
written by Cererum123 , December 21, 2011
Ok if you are thinking that Christians should respect gods they know to be false ,then I am at a loss as to understand as to why a Christian would or should do this.(You do not respect Islam because you know it to be false why should someone who feels the same way about say Ganesh (I hope I'm spelling that right) treat him with respect?) However if you are talking about respecting Hindus as people ,and understanding that some Hindus in the past did have some teachings that affected morals in a positive way ,then then I agree with treating Hindus with respect ,and understanding the profound impact of these teachers.
As for you not having any moral ground to stand on if all non-Christians are going to hell ,there are then a few things you need to realize. If Christianity is true (and all evidence points to this conclusion when interpreted properly) then neither the Christian nor the Hindu have any moral ground to stand on ,as they are both sinners. The only moral ground a Christian can stand on is the rock of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only person who never sinned ,and is willing to wipe away the sins of anyone who will accept Him for who He is ,and that is the Son of God ,and the Savior of all mankind. Jesus is the only person who has any moral ground to stand on. He imputes His righteousness to those who believe in Him so that when it comes time for the day when God will judge all according to their actions ,those who accepted Jesus will be standing on the firm foundation of Jesus' righteousness. I know that this may be hard to understand ,but I am completely serious when I say that NO ONE has ANY moral ground to stand on except for Jesus Himself. I am a sinner just like anyone else ,and I just as equally deserve to have the punishment for sin. God loved each and every one of us so much that He came down in human form as Jesus to pay that penalty so that anyone trusting in Him will not have to pay it themselves as they rightly deserve to. This is known as Grace. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that the Christian has accepted this free gift. I refer you to the disease comparison above. The very reason I am talking to you now is in hope that you will accept the cure (Jesus' atonement on the cross) so that you don't have to suffer the end result of the disease. I am not claiming higher moral ground ,and I never will ,because I do NOT HAVE IT. The only person who has any claim on any kind of moral ground is Jesus. I hope this helps you understand things a little better.
Thanks for the links. I will take a look at those sites ,as I sincerely want to learn more about what others believe.
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@ AAKI, MALEM & REED
written by Scrutator , December 21, 2011
I am still waiting for comments from all or one of you, or from any other Islamist on the points I've raised above.

Please invest some of your valuable time and key in your response.

This column is eerily silent on this score !

Thanks.
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To Archpagan, post of December 19, 2011
written by Yibel , December 21, 2011
Ideological arrogance of the socialists can be traced back to the Judeo-Christian principle. How so?

The Judeo-Christian principle is: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Love you neighbor as yourself. Be kind to strangers, for you know not when you may be in the presence of angels. Care about your fellow man. Be a light unto the nations, for this is the sum of the Law and the Prophets.

How is this, in any way, ideological arrogance?
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To Fineliving 56
written by Archpagan , December 21, 2011
Welcome back. I guessed you had been to your home country Syria. I am happy to learn that your near and dear ones back home are safe. Situation in all Arab countries is in a fluid state. Duh_Swami is absent for a long time without giving any trail. Perhaps, this is happening for the first time since 2008 when I visited the site for the first time.
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@ fineliving56
written by Cererum123 , December 22, 2011
I know that you feel cheated by God ,because of what happened to you in Islam ,but I think that what you need to realize is that Allah isn't God. Allah is a distant god ,but Jesus is someone you can know personally in your daily life. Allah sends people to die for him ,Jesus died and rose from the dead FOR US. I know that you have been told that the Bible is corrupt ,and is unreliable ,but if you look at the historical evidence ,you can see that this is a false claim ,and that the Bible IS trustworthy. Our translations ,and copies do have minor errors in them ,but that is what happens when fallible humans handle any document. While these errors are in the copies ,and translations they wouldn't have been there in the originals ,and not only that they are very minor ,and not one affects the teachings of the Bible in any way. In fact most of the minor mistakes that have been made over these thousands of years are simple spelling errors. The Bible in it's entirety is still 98% the same now as it was for the earliest copies we have. The Bible CAN be trusted. I would like to pray for you ,and for your family. I hope I see you on here a little more from now on too. Remember I do this out of the love that Jesus gives me ,and I hope you understand where I am coming from on this.
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...
written by Cererum123 , December 22, 2011
my first part of that post is being reviewed by the administrator. I hope it pops up later. It deals with why there is evil in this world.
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Archpagan
written by fineliving56 , December 22, 2011
thank you for caring ...I did not mention I traveled to Syria in purpose to avoid any problems might happen for saying that what ever it is. I was warned to avoid mentioning I came and live from the US, due to the pure hate that the Syrians hold for Americans ...I found out that holding the tong from saying the truth is way to go If I value my life as I knew it. I think I tasted blood when I held my tong so hard when I had a 72 year old Sunni Muslim bigot telling me....'' every non Muslim in the world WILL end up in jahannam for dying not Muslims '' , When I argued'' but Christians and Jews are the the people of the holy books that Qur'an mention many times''..he answers with the most hateful look I have seen in a Muslim eyes ..''.today's Christians believe in the three entity of God ...Allah do not have a son so they are Moshrikeen and Kufers and they will burn for ever and ever '' ...I ended the conversation fast before I lose any control....I told my self... these old bigots will die soon and his old thinking will die with him and change of thinking will happen eventually...I hope

I hope Swami is alright
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about duh swami
written by Cererum123 , December 22, 2011
I have recently been to the site known as Jihad Watch. If it's the same duh swami then he's ok ,and apparently just not posting here at the moment.

The Trinity is highly misrepresented in the Quran. It does not consist of God ,Jesus ,and Mary ,and God the Father is not "the third of the three".Also Christians do not believe in 3 separate Gods ,but 1 God nature in 3 persons. This is even alluded to in the OT. One example of this being alluded to is here Genesis 3:22 and the LORD God said "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat ,and live forever." When God says one of Us ,He is talking about the other persons in the Trinity. It's a hard doctrine to understand. Just as Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal and pre-existent ,so Christians believe that Jesus is eternal ,and pre-existent. The Bible teaches that we are made in the "Image of God" ,and since God is a personal being so are we. In order for God to be a personal being He had to have other persons to interact with. Without this capability there would not be any way for us to really interact ,or for us to be persons either. It's our soul or our personhood that makes us who we are ,and interacting with others who are also a person is necessary. There is a place called Tekton Ministries that would do a better job explaining this than I can. Again the doctrine of the Trinity is very complicated ,and I might not be getting this across very well. One example I find helpful in explaining it to some degree is the example of our sun. The sun itself being the source ,the sunlight being and outward expression of the actions of the sun ,and the warmth of the rays being the effect of the sunlight on that which it comes into contact with.This is like God the Father being the source ,Jesus being a visible expression of God ,and the Holy Spirit whom is in all who place their faith in Christ.
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cererum 123
written by fineliving56 , December 22, 2011
Hallo ...
I gather you mean It is symbolical, not literal concerning Trinity in the bible...I understand.
The God I was referring to is in no way Allah of Quran which it is the product of the over active and evil Brain of Muhammad. I call my God A GOD because that is the only way any one, could understanding what I am referring to ...I am sorry 123, Christian God is your God but not the God that it could and should be for me and we talked about that before.
Let just say I believe that you believe you have a wonderful God and that should be enough, after all My view that I see from my window is completely different view, that you see from your window ...isn't right?
You are going to like what I am going to write next ...
I asked many Muslims from different sects '' Which one, you trust and you would like to deal with in business more often, A MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN ? '' . and the answers was overwhelming prefer a christian over a Muslim and when I asked why, the answer was, that they are more trustworthy and less likely to cheat you out of your money''.
I thought about the reason for that for long time and I came up with this...
Islam has good parts that calls for transparency in business dealings and fairness and that is true for other religions too, the difference in Islam is when it comes to business Muslims set a side what Islam tells them to do and they tell them selves visting Kaba and make hajj, will solves the problem that is because a Muslim will wipe his slate clean of all sins if he does salat so he could cheat,sin,lie and Allah will forgive in the end.
Good Christian do not think that way ...they take the teachings in the bible seriously and try to demonstrate it in every day dealings in every aspects of their life that does not mean they are perfect but they strive to be perfect for their God and other human beings...it is true that christian have confessions but that is no way is free pass to heaven.
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To Yible and Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 22, 2011
My post of 22-12-11 to Yible has been grabbed for scrutiny. All the three- Judaism, Christianity and Mohammedan religion- believe in the trinity- one God, one prophet and one supreme holy book- with emphasis in the reverse order. In that sense none of them is monotheist. Marxism, the youngest sibling of Semitism believes in duality -- one prophet and one holy book (no god). So, Marxists are the best monotheist of all.
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...
written by Toby_King , December 23, 2011
Those are some of the statistics published on NPR in the US :


1. 63% of all boys, age 11-20, who commit murder kill the man who was abusing their mother
2. 75% of boys who are present when their mothers are beaten were later identified as having demonstrable behavior problems
3. Children from homes characterized by domestic violence are five to seven times more likely to experience significant psychological problems relative to children in the general population.
4. Domestic violence exposed children are four times more likely to visit the school nurse.
5. More than half of school age children in domestic violence shelters show clinical levels of anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder.
6. Researchers have linked exposure to chronic abuse and violence with lower IQ scores, poorer language skills, decrements in visual-motor integration skills and problems with attention and memory.
7. Cognitive problems associated with exposure to violence and abuse comprises one of the most direct threats to the developmental task of school adaptation and academic achievement.
8. Witnessing violence as a child is associated with adult reports of depression, trauma-related symptoms and low self-esteem among women and trauma-related symptoms among men
9. Children in homes where domestic violence occurs are physically abused or seriously neglected at a rate 1500% higher than the national average in the general population.
10. 3.3 million children witness domestic violence each year in the US.
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...
written by Toby_King , December 23, 2011
I dont think any of you have even bothered to read the Quran. Go to a masjid near you, get a copy of it and read it than ask your questions. Go to reputable websites not off the google search engine. Like http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/index.php or islamway.com, those websites give you all the information you need. This is a free country and you all are entitled to your opinion, slurs insults or whatever it is you say does not reach our prophet Muhammed PBUH. And when i say "OUR" i dont mean muslims I mean all of humanity. I'm really sad that people have this idea about islam, and I blame muslims for it , we have strayed from the teachings of our prophet and let human weakness overcome our actions. We our not the way FOXNEWS and other media organizations point us out to be. Even muslims nowadays are spreading a bad image. We are not terrorists we're not a menace. We are people who want to live in peace with the world. It's not our duty to force people to believe in Islam no one can. Even god points out in the Quran to my personal translation "You are not who drives faith into the heart of whom you love, only Allah can lead them to it" .


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Ask
written by Mark , December 23, 2011
It's our job to spread islam by following it. Only very few muslims (im sad to say) are truly following the teachings of our prophet. I only ask you to look for the truth yourself, and you will know whats right and wrong, if you have a question ask an imam of a mosque or on the sites i have mentioned above, because not any muslim can answer all your questions or they might not relate the answer to you correctly. Ask knowledge for the knowledgeable. Dont ask a mathematician a question about History go to the right sources and ask the questions. I really appreciate the muslim brothers joining this debate but I dont like the insults and the slurs exchanged by both parties. We should all be civilized, we are all humans breath the same air and live on the same planet. So please, all I ask of you is if you truly want to know the truth about islam, dont take my word for it look up the info from the right resources and than judge. Thank you, and have a wonderful holiday.
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Little peacekeepers in training for tubby king
written by Mozlem , December 23, 2011
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To Yible
written by Archpagan , December 23, 2011
The idea of the ‘Chosen people of God’ or ‘covenant with God’ has no spiritual significance; those have political/materialistic significance only. The Abrahamic tradition has no capacity to accommodate any alternative version of righteousness or divinity. Because ideological arrogance is in-built in the tradition. In such tradition, a non-believer is sure to burn in the eternal hell-fire, but the believer is rid of all sins, regardless of his/her honesty in conduct.

Socialism or its later corruption Communism which grew up in the Judeo-Christian environment is infected with the same virus of ideological arrogance. The Communists look upon the History of mankind through their favorite prism of class struggle and declares ‘dictatorship of the proletariat class’ as the inevitable goal of mankind. They hate every people with different socio-political views reviling them as ‘reactionary’, capitalist’ or ‘exploiter of the working class’. For them, ‘working class’ is God, Karl Marx the prophet/messenger, Das Capital the Bible, ‘Class struggle’ the Jihad/Crusade and ‘Capitalist’ forms the Satan. In short, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Marxism have the same software.
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To Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 23, 2011
Dear Cerebrum, the very idea of ‘Correct God’ is an anathema to us Hindus. Rather, we are used to paying respect to all Gods- SARVA DEVEBHYO NAMAH. To us the Word ‘God’ is a common noun like ‘fruit’. So, statements like ‘Yahweh is the only God’ or ‘Allah is the only God’ is as absurd as saying ‘Apple is the only fruit’ or ‘mango is the only fruit’. We deny existence of any God who loves his chosen people or believers only, be it Yahweh or Allah. If you say that Hinduism is not a religion at all, I shall gladly agree. I do not like see Hinduism as something parallel or alternative to Christianity or Islam.
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 23, 2011
Again your writing shows that you still have a few misconceptions about Christianity. God loves everyone ,even those who don't believe. God loves everyone equally too. The only reason Christians are accepted into heaven ,and those who reject God don't is due to that fact that God can't allow sin into heaven. There is no possible way for anyone to work their way into heaven. It's entirely based on "Grace". Sin is the ultimate act of treason against God ,and we have all sinned. Only by covering this sin can one enter heaven. The only thing that can cover sin is blood. Before Jesus came this blood came from the sacrifice of animals ,however animals are imperfect and finite. Sin is an infinite crime deserving infinite punishment since it is treason against an infinite God. Animal blood is not capable of covering sin in it's entirety which is why animals needed to be repeatedly sacrificed. Jesus ,however, was both God and man ,and was therefore capable of bearing the punishment that a human must bear ,but also infinite and perfect ,so He could pay this penalty once and for all. This offer to cover your sins is extended to all of mankind ,not just Christians. It's all about whether or not you are going to accept this free gift or reject it. You have already committed the crime ,you have already distanced yourself from God ,you are already on "death row" so to speak. You already DESERVE to bear the punishment of hell ,we all do. But since God loves everyone He sent Jesus (Jesus Christ was God taking on human form) to live a perfect life free of sin ,and then to give His life up to pay the penalty we rightfully deserve to pay. He then rose from the dead to show His power over death itself ,and showed Himself to His disciples ,and over 500 eyewitnesses. We in the Gospels have eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life ,death ,and resurrection. These accounts have been transmitted faithfully to us over thousands of years. The Gospels along with the rest of the Bible both OT and NT have proven their reliability as historical documents ,and in predicting future events hundreds of years before they were fulfilled. Also Christians and Jews don't have one holy book ,and one holy prophet. The Bible both OT and NT are collections of books that are recognized as the inspired word of God. Jesus is not a prophet He is God's invisible Image made visible so that we can know Him. The OT is full of prophets ,and the NT has many apostles. Even the Torah is a compilation of 5 books all written by Moses. The only thing that even matches above is that Christians ,Jews ,and Muslims believe in 1 God.
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@ Archpagan part 2
written by Cererum123 , December 23, 2011
Here are a few verses on God's love Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His love for us in this : While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Christians do not worship the Bible (there may have been people who treat a Bible like it is an idol ,but that is not orthodox Christian belief). We worship God. Jesus and God are one ,they are distinct ,but they are still one. Your body is made up of many parts ,but you still have only one body. God is likewise made in His essence as one ,but has 3 distinct persons. They are each known as the Father ,the Son ,and the Holy Spirit. The Father being the source ,the Son being the visible agent from the source ,and the Holy Spirit being the part that becomes active inside all believers. I hope this cleared up a few of your misconceptions.
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@ fineliving56
written by Cererum123 , December 23, 2011
The Trinity is doctrine firmly based in what the Bible teaches.It is not merely symbolic but a description of God ,and how He works. It is a difficult concept to grasp ,and I myself do not fully understand it. I know that you have your objections to the God that Christians believe in. I know that one of your main objections to Him is the suffering and evil that is seen daily in this world. I was doing my best to give you the Christian reason for why God allows suffering and evil. I may have not given the answer in it's entirety ,or in the best way. I know a few articles that do a much better job at explaining it than I ever could ,and even a book that does an incredible job at this. The book is called "How Could a Loving God ...?". It is available for free at a site (sorry I can't post the exact link due to the post being eaten please google it) called Answers in Genesis . To get access to the book go to their feedback section use their filters on the side to get out of feedback and into the books section. It is a very good book ,and explains things very well. Even if you disagree with it's contents it is still a good read. It goes through someone's own experience with suffering in their family. This particular objection is raised by many people. And it is probably the hardest question to answer especially over a comment section like this with it's small word limit. If you do have other objections I would like to know them ,and either try and answer them myself or point you to someone who can. I do not have all the answers ,but I do try to give answers to what I do know when I can. I urge you to read this book as it's the best answer I have seen to your objection. It's only about 8 or 9 chapters that aren't very long. I definitely think it is worth taking the time to read. I know that you probably don't celebrate Christmas ,but I certainly do hope you have a Merry Christmas even if you don't believe in Jesus.
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@ fineliving56
written by Cererum123 , December 23, 2011
I was just on Jihad Watch ,and saw your conversation with duh. OT and NT stand respectively for Old Testament (sometimes called Hebrew Bible) and New Testament.I probably should have explained that earlier. Most people I have talked to before knew what it meant so I guess I thought most everyone else would too. Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully duh will be able post on here again ,and that this "block" will be undone. I also had some weird problem trying to get on this site a little while ago. It said something about my account was unpaid. I don't have an account ,and have never had to pay anything before ,but then I was suddenly allowed back on. Maybe this has to do with the clone of duh that popped up a while back. Used the same name as him ,but from the writing you could tell it was an entirely different person.
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Cererum 123
written by fineliving56 , December 23, 2011
Thanks for your posts to me and your suggestion of readings ...I will look in to it.
I just have to tell you one thing 123 …I am finaly happy in my skin and I know I will never be happy where you are, no mater what you explain and reexplain which it seems that is where your happiness stems from is to explain to others where your happiness lays and you like others to share that feeling … if that true ….so...explain away about your God although this place is not the place to do so ….too much, due to the fact that this an Islamic watch .

BTW ….OT, Swami has written in his post was to say out of Subject or something to that effect, not [ old testament like you have said ]
I could tell, your mind is so occupied with bible studies
It is true I am not a Christian and I will never be but I still appreciate the colorful celebrations and I celebrate for my Christian friends …so I say to you happy Christmas and happy new year.
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To Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 23, 2011
O. K, O. K, we too have inspired word of God called the Vedas which being the first literary work of mankind enjoys irrefutable primacy. You go on sinning and Jesus will save you. I would like to neutralize my sins by 'punya', i. e. virtuous act, a concept perhaps unknown to you. Hindu and Greek mythology are full of miracles. So, there are innumerable possibilities like Jesus Christ. BTW, why don't you have a mother? Or, have you hidden her?
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@ fineliving56
written by Cererum123 , December 24, 2011
Fineliving56 ,you are right it's very hard to explain everything over this site. I do try to stay on topic about Islam ,but I find that a lot of people have bought into the idea that Islam ,and Christianity are somehow the same. This is a major misconception ,and I do my best to show that this is simply not true. I posted the above to you since Archpagan and I were already on this topic. When I saw your post asking about OT I thought maybe you were asking duh about my posts ,because I didn't notice him use the same abbreviation (although now I realize that it was for something else ,sorry I guess I just wasn't paying enough attention). Jesus Christ has given me a peace even though I still go through very tough times. It is this peace in part that keeps me going. I know that I would not have it if not for Jesus. I want others to have this kind of peace too. A Christian that is truly following Jesus will also want everyone else to have this kind of relationship with Jesus as well. It's out of love for our fellow mankind ,and out of the gratitude towards Jesus (having this gratitude makes us want to follow Him to the best of our ability). The Bible teaches that Christians are supposed to always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in them. I try to do this on this site when I can. Also just talking to someone on here who isn't immediately hostile to what I say makes me feel that my words on here aren't completely wasted. I do hope that one day you find the kind of peace that comes from trusting Jesus as your savior. Thank you for your kind words and civil behavior.
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To Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , December 24, 2011
Your words on here are not completely wasted. I have clearly understood now why you have kept the poor guy crucifixed for 2,000 years and entertain no hope to liberate him from the cross. I will study the biblical literature more intensively.

Wishing you a have a happy Christmas.
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@ Archpagan part 1
written by Cererum123 , December 24, 2011
I have heard of the Vedas ,and I understand that they are very important to Hindus. However, just being the oldest written work by human hands does not make them irrefutable. Also just because they are the oldest written works available to us doesn't mean that there wasn't any literature written before them. Do they have a record of 100% historical reliability? Do they have prophecies written hundreds of years in advance that also have a 100% success rating? The books of the Bible have this record. Only a few prophecies haven't been fulfilled ,and they are all involved in what people would call the apocalypse.
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@ Archpagan part 2
written by Cererum123 , December 24, 2011
I don't deny that miracles happened for people from different parts of the world from different religions ,but I'm skeptical of the fact that these miracles came from someone like Zeus or Ganesh. I also do not know if these miracles had the same meaning that has been applied to them by the people involved. I know of one miracle that happened to the Greeks in the Bible. Here is the corresponding passages Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship ,I even found an altar with this inscription" TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship- and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

The story of this unknown God goes something like this. There was a plague in Greece ,and the people believed that they had offended one of their gods.They began offering sacrifices to all of their usual gods ,but nothing happened. A man named Epimenides suggested that they let a bunch of grazing sheep loos ,and sacrifice them when they would lie down to rest. They believed that since a hungry sheep would not normally lay down while it was still eating ,that the places where the sheep would lie down would be sacred. Eventually they sacrificed the sheep ,and their prayer was answered. They built the altar there to "AN UNKNOWN GOD". This was the God of the Bible.
I'm not sure I understand your question of "Why don't you have a mother? Or have you hidden her?" If you are referring to the names of the Trinity being Father ,Son ,and Holy Spirit ,then you need to know that calling Jesus the Son ,and God the Father is a description of their relationship to each other. Jesus is not literally the Son of God in a carnal sense like we are used to (there was no physical relations with Mary to produce Jesus) ,but in a figurative sense. Since God is omnipotent ,and omniscient ,there is no need for there to be a goddess. Earlier in your comment about saying that there is only one God is like saying there is only one type of fruit is a bad example. For one you can see ,touch ,smell , and taste fruit. This is not the usual with God. When I say that there is only one God ,I mean that there is only one Creator. The only Creator of this universe came down in human form as Jesus in order to save us from our own sins. Also as a Christian I am to do my absolute best to not sin ever again. Being a Christian doesn't give you a license to sin. If someone who says they are Christian acts that way then they are not understanding what it means to truly become a follower of Christ
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 24, 2011
My second part is being reviewed hopefully it will show up soon.
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 24, 2011
I consider you someone who is actually willing to have a real discussion ,and I don't believe that my words are wasted on you. Some people I have come across in various places are very hostile to what I have tried to say. They often respond the same way we often see Muslims who are visiting this site for the first time respond.These intense emotional responses ,while I can certainly understand a Muslim responding this way initially ,are not exactly the best people to have an in depth discussion with. I personally do not like the symbol called a "Crucifix". I believe that an empty cross is a far more effective symbol. A cross that is empty is more true to what things really are. Jesus is no longer on the cross ,but has shown His power over it ,and death itself. I certainly enjoy having a few people on here that are genuinely trying to have a discussion ,rather than having people constantly on the attack. I wish you a Merry Christmas as well.
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ISLAM AS MUSLIM WOMEN SEE IT
written by Scrutator , December 26, 2011
In another forum, I read a muslim woman's reaction to Islamic behaviour towards women; I reproduce it here, as I feel it is pertinent to the topic under discussion:


‘Freedom’ from London, U.K. writes

Men get 72 virgins in heaven and what do we as women get? Wined and dinned?

The fact remains that women in Islam are below men in every way. from inheritence to leaving the house alone.

We're always being watched, It is not to protect us, it is because a woman is a man's worst fears. If she were to lose her virginity, she would dishonour him, a woman is as valuable as her hymen. Don't you find that wrong; unjust? Men in Islam are constantly watching their women because they don't trust them.

Why is it that a man can marry up to four women? Why is it that a woman needs four witnesses to report a rape or her husbands infidelity?

Woman in Islam are just card board cut outs, there is nothing in the Quran about their sexuality or emotions, they are just seen as women who live at home to 'please', 'please' and 'please'!

Don't you feel insulted that a man can marry four women if he chooses? Don't you feel like a spare tyre? Because i certainly do.

Having my husband come from another wife's home, and entering me the way he entered her a few hours, minutes ago. It repulses me and it should repulse you. If not, then you are a disgrace to womanhood and frankly i pity you :( oh and in the Quran there is that constant mention of how there will be rivers and streams of water. This repetition of water is very clever of those Arabic men who made up the Quran, it is meant to be very attractive to people who lived in deserts (where the Quran originated from).
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To Scrutator
written by Archpagan , December 26, 2011
Thank you for your inputs. Mohammedans have an inverted sense of 'rights', when it comes to their womenfolk. They would claim that Muhammad have secured the rights of women. But, still more shameful is the behavior of 'revolutionary' women libbers, who keep mum when it comes to status of women in Mohammedan community, little knowing that they are losing all their credibility in that way.
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Scrutator
written by fineliving56 , December 26, 2011
Thanks for the post ….every time I read about the 4 wives non since in islam, My blood hot boilings over…I remind my self I am out of it …so it any women who agrees to be the second or third or fourth wife, she deserves to be treated the way it is treated by the Muslim society as the old shoe that the man discard for a newer shoe …
If a women with the self esteem of a quarter of a regular woman , who are we to drill in her small pee brain, she really deserves better …I know for a fact that they think that is all for the best because Muhammad said so …..sad but true …

I have no respect for these kind of women …they disgust me to no end.
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@ Archpagan & Fineliving56
written by Scrutator , December 27, 2011
Thank you Archpagan & Fineliving56, for your comments !
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@ Archpagan
written by Cererum123 , December 29, 2011
I still haven't read a whole lot about Hindu belief ,but I thought I would ask you about aum. From what I read aum is eternal, unchanging, omnipotent ,omnipresent ,and omniscient. It is the sole creator of all that exists.(again this is just a little of what I read correct me if I'm wrong.) This is very much the same qualities of God in the Bible. If what I have read is correct ,then we do have some common ground. 1 Creator who is omniscient ,omnipresent ,omnipotent ,eternal ,and unchanging. You also believe in avatars. While somewhat different they still involve a god coming down and taking on human form.Jesus was God coming down in human form so that He might take away the sins of the world. You believe in Karma ,which is essentially the good you do will get you good ,and the bad you do will get you bad. This is somewhat similar to when the Bible says "you will reap what you sow". Now I know that there are still many differences even among these that I have mentioned ,but there is still some similarity that we can talk about. I look forward to learning what you actually believe ,and if I am wrong on any of this feel free to correct me. (I had to find this stuff on other sites , because I can't remember the where those sites you mentioned earlier are located. Sorry. I have bad short term memory.)
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To Cerebrum 123
written by Archpagan , January 04, 2012
You have asked a lot of questions on Hinduism. But, I am not an academician living by teaching and studying. I eke out a living by practicing taxation laws. So, I am no in a position to give you satisfactory answers.

Composed in ancient Sanskrit, the Vedas are undoubtedly the oldest literature of mankind. Initially, those were composed by saintly Rishis and passed on to posterity orally through their disciples. So, in ancient literatures those were sometimes referred to as the ‘Shruti’, i. e. ‘to be listened’. There is practically no chance of it getting corrupted, because, it was composed in verses with specified meter (chhandya) and recited accordingly. Change of a single letter would disturb that meter and get detected. But, meaning of many words used in the Vedas have undergone changes over the years. So much so, that commentary on the Vedas had to be written way back at least in the 3rd century BCE.

The Vedas are believed to have been uttered by the Lord Bramha, the creator at the time of creation, giving law of the creation. So, The Vedas is looked upon by ancient Hindus in the same way we look upon Science now. The word ‘Veda,’ means the knowledge. So, the question of believing/ unbelieving the Vedas does not arise. If you have the erudition to find fault with the Vedas you have to write your own Veda and that will be treated as words of Bramha. In this way the Vedas were composed by around one thousand saints over a period of roughly 1000 years. Atheism is of little relevance in such a scheme of things here. If you want to call yourself atheist, you come under obligation to prove yourself God. That’s what happened to the Buddha. In short Hinduism is integrated with knowledge whereas others are integrated with social organization or politics. Having no central character like Moses, Christ or Muhammad, Hinduism is an open-ended and evolving religion.

The Vedas contains no prophesy. But, Jyotish, i. e. Astrology is a part of it (Vedanga). Anyone can make prophecy by practicing Vedic Astrology. Ancient Hindu society attached much importance to Jyotish and Ayurveda i. e Vedic system of medicine. Yoga, i. e. the practical philosophy, Jyotish and Ayurveda formed the three pillars of Hindu lifestyle in ancient India.
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@ Archpagan part 1
written by Cerebrum123 , January 04, 2012
Thank you for the information. It is all quite interesting. The word science also originally meant knowledge. Up until Jesus ,God would send various prophets to the Jewish people ,and during their exile in Babylon there were prophets like Daniel ,who had some very amazing prophecies. Some of these prophecies written in the Bible have actually had fairly recent fulfillment. Probably the biggest prophecy from the Bible that has been fulfilled recently is the reinstatement of Israel as a nation. I believe it was king Nebuchadnezzar who had a prophetic dream that was interpreted by Daniel. The dream went something like this. He saw a statue that looked like a man ,the head was made of gold , it's chest and arms of silver , it's belly and thighs of bronze , it's legs of iron ,and it's feet of partly iron and partly baked clay. There was then a large boulder taken from a mountain uncut by human hands ,and it rolled down and crushed the statue to dust. The boulder then became a huge mountain and covered the whole earth(remember that this is a dream and is very symbolic). Daniel said that the head of gold was the kingdom of Babylon ,and that the lower parts each were a major kingdom (the silver part being the Medes and Persians I believe) each was less glorious than the kingdom before it. If this prophetic dream holds up as other Biblical prophecies (and we so far have a 100% success rating so there isn't a reason to think this one will fail) then we are getting very close to the boulder that crushes the statue and covers the whole earth. This boulder represents an eternal kingdom set up by God ,and ruled by Jesus Himself. It will cover the entire earth ,and the former kingdoms will be all but forgotten. Prophets were not only sent to just the Israelites. Jonah was sent to Nineveh. He didn't want to go ,because he wanted the people there to continue in their sinful ways and be destroyed. God had other plans ,and he ended up there anyway. When he told the people of Nineveh about their impending destruction (he didn't even tell them to repent and turn to God) they immediately stopped the evil things they were doing ,and asked God for forgiveness. God did forgive them. Joseph ended up with the Egyptians ,and helped them survive a seven year famine(he had interpreted a dream for Pharaoh ,and told him what to do). This made Egypt very rich ,and helped Joseph's family survive the famine too.
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@ Archpagan
written by Cerebrum123 , January 04, 2012
Also until Jesus ,there was what is called progressive revelation. Before Moses ,there were certain things that weren't considered wrong (starting a population of humans with only 1 man and 1 woman requires that their children marry each other in order for the species to survive) ,but after so long the human race was no longer able to safely procreate in this way (genetic damage has been building up in our systems since the "Fall"). That's when certain close relationship marriages were no longer considered something acceptable. At this time divorce was considered acceptable ,and it wasn't later until Jesus that divorce was to be only for when one of the spouses was unfaithful. Jesus said that the reason that divorce was allowed in the first place is ,because the Israelites were hardhearted. As time went on God would give the people more information ,not only about Himself ,but what was right and what was wrong. This culminated in Jesus when God fully revealed Himself in a way that we could understand. Jesus taught a moral code above and beyond anything that had been taught previously. He also came with the promise of a restored relationship with our Creator ,and an eternal life in a perfect body in which to spend our time in this restored relationship. Is there any guarantee in Hinduism that you will achieve this enlightenment ,and end the cycle of reincarnation? Is there any real evidence that reincarnation is an actual phenomenon? Is there any real hope offered ,and guaranteed if you are a Hindu? Jesus made claims of eternal life in heaven with God ,and He was able to back up His claims not only with His miraculous deeds ,but with His own resurrection. We have eyewitness accounts that were written almost immediately after these events. Also just because the Vedas are older it doesn't mean that they are correct. Geocentrism is older than Heliocentrism ,but that doesn't make it correct. People used to think that impetus (a kind of forerunner to momentum) is what kept an object going ,but that this impetus was some kind of fluid that gradually came out as an object lost speed. We now know that impetus isn't correct even though it is the older theory. Also people seem to think that polytheism came first ,and then evolved into monotheism. Archaeology shows that it was more that monotheism came first ,and then devolved into polytheism.
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Does the Qur'an also inspire men to kill their wives
written by Yibel , January 04, 2012
Near Daharki, Pakistan there is a separate graveyard for those killed under the pretext of karo-kari (honour killing). It is called ‘karan jo qabrustan’ (graveyard for the dishonoured) In this graveyard, built by the Shar clan, people, mostly women, are buried without last rites and men guard the graves so nobody can visit them and offer Fateha. Even in death, the punishment continues.

While the custom of karo-kari prevails throughout Sindh, some clans such as Shar Bozdar, Pitafi and Jakhrani, are particularly notorious for killing people under this custom.

In these tribes, the custom of killing in the name of honour flourishes to serve
many other ulterior motives. According to dictates of people from the tribes and other smaller communities, men manipulate this atrocious custom to get rid of their wives and marry a lover, to get monetary benefit or share in property among other things.

According to a Sindh-based, women’s rights NGO, Samaj Foundation, the number of women killed in Sindh was 284 in 2009, while in 2010 it fell to 266. The foundation has statistics until June 30 this year, where a total of 155 cases were recorded.

Read more at jihadwatch.org/2012/01/pakistan-separate-graveyard-for-honor-
killing-victims
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To Archpagan
written by Yibel , January 04, 2012
Cerebrum123 has posted a very good reply to you concerning Christian beliefs, so there is no need for me to elaborate. However, I do have some further questions for you. For one thing, I am not sure what you mean by:

an alternative version of righteousness or divinity.

For example, Islam's alternative version of righteousness and divinity means that Muslims are required to impose their ideology/shari'ah on all of mankind, by force or stealth. Shari'ah means inequality of persons under the law, loss of personal freedom, slavery, cruelty, and it makes criminal behavior holy in the eyes of their concept of god.

I too know little about Hinduism, but I have found that the Judeo-Christian
tradition has many things in common Buddhism. Communism and socialism, however, have nothing in common with the Judeo-Christian beliefs and are more in line with Islam in their ideology of the ummah, enslavement of the masses, hatred for all non-believers, forcing their ideology on others, and the concept that the end justifies the means.

So Christians reject these versions of so-called righteousness and divinity
because they are neither righteous, nor divine.

Just because Marx was born a Jew does not mean he was a Jew. Marx was an atheist. He rejected Judaism for his own idea of reality and made himself both a god and that god's prophet. Muhammad was also a creator of a new legality/shari'ah. He too mad himself both a god and that god's prophet.
In other words, they both testified of themselves.

Christianity has a long history, going back 5772 years. The rules/laws of
behavior are the best that mankind has come up with so far. The Ten Commandments (no stealing, no murder, no lying, etc), The Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you), the Psalms, the Proverbs, the Prophets all testify the rule of law, justice, and righteousness.

Perhaps Hinduism has similar beliefs. I hope to learn more. I have been looking into various sites. Thank you for your information. Please continue to enlighten.

All the best to you and yours,
Yibel
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It is so funny....
written by Brown Superman , January 05, 2012
The Christians say God (or Jesus) is not a god for christians but for whole world. The Muslims likewise say that Allah is god for humanity and not just for muslims alone. Why don't you both (Jews can later join in the project) compromise and accept each others version instead of saying only "mine" is right. Or please ask the respective gods and prophets to prove their mighty worth to the humans (to animals, later) so that there will be lesser confusion amongst the "lost souls" as to which religion is better to follow. Are your gods personally not capable of doing just that?

All three religions of West Asia are from the same pot, that their original flavour is the same. The flavours we get today were twisted by changes in time, spices of local/tribal cultures and of course, the opinions of later so-claimed thinkers. The core crap is the same.
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@ Brown Superman
written by Cerebrum123 , January 05, 2012
Do you believe that there is indeed a Creator of this universe? If there is a Creator ,then why wouldn't He be the God of the whole world? He created the whole universe so why shouldn't all of mankind worship Him? Jews technically worship the same God as Christians ,they just reject Jesus. The problem with this is that Jesus is God. He came down as a human to show Himself to us in a way that we could truly understand. Allah ,no matter what the Quran or Muslims claim, is not the same as God. God is the Creator of the universe. He is one in nature ,but 3 in persons. One good example is this. Source of light ,light ,and heat. This is possibly the best analogy of how the Trinity works. Surely you don't believe that everything got here by random chance do you? This is far more irrational than believing in an intelligent Creator making our universe. If you found a watch ,you would immediately understand that someone designed that watch ,so why not something infinitely more complex also needing design. There was indeed a Creator ,and He did indeed reveal Himself to us. He did this in several ways. One He used "special revelation" ,this means that He revealed Himself to us in His written word i.e. the Bible. 2 He revealed Himself to us in "general revelation" ,this means nature and the whole of His creation. 3 He revealed Himself to us in the person of Jesus Christ. We have eyewitness testimony to the divinity of Jesus Christ including His birth ,life, death ,and Resurrection. Both the OT and NT have proven themselves 100% trustworthy ,through archaeology ,history ,and prophecy. When you look at all of this together you will see that only the Bible is truly from the one Creator of this universe. Since He created us He deserves our worship. He also loves us ,and even gave His own life that we might have an eternal relationship with Him. How on earth can this ever compare with the actions of Allah ,or any other pantheon throughout history? God created us all ,and ultimately we are all accountable to Him. That's how He is the God of the whole world.
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Bible is Truth
written by Biblequote , January 05, 2012
The Bible is the Truth, not the Koran:

'So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.' Ephesians 5:28-30



For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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It is not funny at all, Brown Superman
written by Yibel , January 05, 2012
Islam is a fascist political idealogy that declares Arab racial supremacy and make others subservient to these uncivilised barbarians. It is morally and spiritually bankrupt. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads, hands, and fingers and to kill nonbelievers wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and are repeatedly warned that Allah will send them to a torturous Hell if they do not join in the slaughter of all the unbelievers.

The verses of violence are open-ended and are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal and unchanging word of Allah, are just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran, and call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation (pay the jizya protection tax), convert to Islam, or are killed (usually beheaded). Some examples:

Q. 2.216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. (Not only does this verse etablish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. According to the aHadith, this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his followers into raiding merchant caravans for booty, slaves, and people to ransom.

Q. 3.56, As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help them.

Q. 3.151, Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for
that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority.
(This verse speaks directly of polytheists, which also includes Christians and
Jews, since Muhammad incorrectly believed they were 'joining companions to
Allah.)

Q. 4:74, Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. Martyrs of Islam, unlike Christian martyrs, are not led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause
of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Q. 4:104, And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy (nonbelievers); if
you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain...

Q. 8:12, I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore
strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

So long as there is this book (the Qur'an) there will be no peace in the world. William Ewart Gladstone
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islam peace
written by BILAL , January 06, 2012
go to another country like indonesia, malaysia , brunaidarussalam, and learn islam more than 400 million muslim there
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...
written by BILAL , January 06, 2012
holy quran from Allah to his prophet Muhammad SAW for all people, say
Surah 112. Al-Ikhlas
1. Say: He is Allah, the One!
2. Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3. He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4. And there is none comparable unto Him.
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MUSLIM MEANINGS OF ENGLISH WORDS
written by SCRUTATOR , January 08, 2012
MUSLIM MEANING OF “PEACE”, OPPRESSION, OPPRESSOR, INNOCENT, CORRUPTION.

When Muslims say PEACE, it means you submit to them so they let you live. Otherwise they will kill you.

When Muslims say they fight OPPRESSION, it means they fight non-belief in Islam.

You become an OPPRESSOR the moment you say I don’t want to be a Muslim.

When they say Islam does not allow killing INNOCENT people, they mean those who have not yet rejected Islam. Once you reject their d’awa you are no more innocent.

When Muslims say Islam fights CORRUPTION, they mean they fight against freedom of thought. This is the greatest corruption so far as Islam is concerned.

When Muslims say Islam accepts Christianity and Judaism, they mean only the versions that were invented by Muhammad.

All the Christians and the Jews who do not submit to Islam and want to interpret their religion in their own way are DISBELIEVERS and should be killed. Their books are corrupted so their religion is false.

Syed Maududi says: "Though they (the Jews) were originally Muslims, they had swerved from the real Islam and made innovations and alterations in it and had fallen victims to hair splitting and sectarianism. They had forgotten and forsaken Allah and begun to serve mammon. So much so that they had even given up their original name 'Muslim' and adopted the name 'Jew' instead, and made religion the sole monopoly of the children of Israel." [Introduction to Quran Sura Baqara]

When Muslims talk about negotiations and treaties, they mean they pull wool over your eyes so they can buy time while you look the other way; and when they are stronger they will break all their treaties just as Muhammad did at Hudaibiyyh and later ratified it in the Sura Deliverance where Allah delivered him from all obligation toward those with whom he had made a treaty.

MUSLIMS HAVE TURNED THE MEANING OF THE ENGLISH WORD ON ITS HEAD !
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@ BILAL
written by Brown Superman , January 11, 2012
I have been to those 3 countries you stated. There are no more than 250 millions muslims in total. Almost 60% of these muslims are illiterates and they practice nothing but "Monkey See, Monkey Do" kind of religion. I have witmessed a few religious riots where the rioters did not even know what the issues were. One screams "allahuakbar" and throws the stone, the other monkeys follow suit in the name of brotherhood.

Not only they have attacked non-muslims, prevented recontruction of temples and churches, broken temples and churches , they have done the same to muslims too but of different mazabs (sects). They have desecreted mosques and prayer houses of Shia Muslims. Wahabbis are outlawed, etc.

My middle finger is shown to anyone who says islam is a religion of peace.
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@ Cerebrum123
written by Brown Superman , January 11, 2012
WE are talking about facts and not beliefs. so, could you please stick to facts and facts alone.?

Drop off your assertions like "a creator of the universe" , "He" and not a she or an it, "jesus is god", etc etc. They are mere unproven statements. Just because you believe in the bible, it does not mean whatever you believe are truth. Of course, you are entitled to your beliefs but that is about all. Without quoting your bible, prove there is a creator of the universe and that the creator is a He. If you cannot prove those, just drop the christian childish talk and open up your mind in search of truth and not parroting verses from a fairy tale book. Which archealogist(s) have dug up to show jesus was resurrected?
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@ Biblequote
written by Brown Superman , January 11, 2012
A muslim will say that Koran is the truth and not the bible. Others are also entitled to say about their books.

That does not mean any of you are right. After all, you are just quoting your own books.

Try quoting some historical records to show what you quoted are the truth.
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Not just wife beating......
written by Brown Superman , January 11, 2012
.... Muslim men beat daughters, sisters too.

I have not heard of mother-beating yet but probably happens on a lesser scale.

Islam has turned men into beasts called Muslims...... and they are proud about that!

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About the book || Reviews by: Steven Simpson | Abul Kasem | Prof Sami Alrabaa | Ibn Kammuna

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