Sacred/Sacredness is: Something entitled to reverence and respect; highly valued and important (especially in a religious sense) (Merriam-Webster).
The Quran, the so-called holy or sacred book of Muslims, is manifestly not entitled to reverence or respect. A proper description of the Quran would be something as follows:
‘The Quran is the most irrational, non-linear, convoluted, repetitive, idiotic and vile book ever written in the history of failed literary fiction.’ This book is a written manifestation of the thoughts of a person who suffered delusions of grandeur. He, with the help of others, compiled this hodgepodge of utter stupidity and terror. The Quran is a manual of war. It incites violence, orders killing, war, amputations, and so on and so forth. It is hailed as the word of god and as the greatest masterpiece. Nothing can be farther from truth.
The proof for above statements is found in the Quran itself. A select sampling of Quranic verses will make this point clear:
- But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); (Pickthall and Yusaf ali, 9:5).
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, which they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned (Pickthall and Yusuf Ali, 5:33).
- O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed (Pickthall and Yusuf Ali 9:73).
- As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is exalted in power (Pickthall and Yusuf Ali; 5:38).
The list goes on, but I believe I have made my point clear.
It is a wise strategy to abstain from being too curt about matters of theology (even Islam) but the phenomenon of the Quran mandates that it should be criticized in the harshest manner possible. Ex-Muslims and anti-theists should make sure to invite others to read it. Simply read it. The truth about the Quran is in the Quran itself. One simply has to read it.
Now, the question arises why Quran is still considered by virtually every ‘moderate Muslim’ to be enlightening and sacred?
I am not concerned with illiterate Muslims, their cognitive functioning and rationalization of Islam is diametrically different from those class of Muslims, who are relatively well-educated, have stable jobs, and can be said to be ‘moderate’ in regard to Islam (Although there is no moderation in Islam, but that is another debate).
The question is why these moderate Muslims hold the Quran so dear? Why do they revere it? Why do they expect it to be respected? Do they not read it? Do they not understand what it says? I have always found this mind-boggling. The Quran is atrocious, and its atrociousness is present in itself.
I will try to put forth a few reasons as to why these so-called ‘moderate Muslims’ hold it sacred.
- Integral part of Faith: To hold Quran as sacred and precious is an integral part of being Muslim. If a Muslim even attempts to question its authenticity, he/she risks being declared an apostate.
- Direct and indirect indoctrination: Indoctrination starts from early childhood. Most well-educated Muslim families may not send their children to mosque to get Quranic education, but they will make sure that they instil in their children the concept that Quran is very precious and sacred, the very words of Allah. I found the proof of this during my personal experience of debate and exchange of ideas during an ‘Islamic week’ here in U.K. I came across a large number of ‘young modern Muslims’, and none of them had ever read Quran; still they held it in high esteem and regarded it as very sacred (Note: religious indoctrination is a very broad term; here I have used it in a very restricted way.)
- Questioning one’s own ability: Another factor is that many smart Muslims, who have had the chance of reading a bit of the Quran, get shocked with what they read. Their natural reaction is: ‘Oh, my understanding is not right’, or ‘Ah, I am mistaken, I am unable to comprehend what it truly says’, or other variants of such thought-patterns. Instead of properly questioning and analysing the Quran they start questioning themselves, because of their indoctrination that the Quran is the infallible word of our Creator.
What these Muslims fail to realize is that the burden of Quranic clarity is not on their shoulders, but on Allah’s shoulders, because He stated, time and again, in the Quran that this book is easily understandable.
Also, if a sane person misunderstands the Quran, then could it be called the word of God? Doesn’t that mean that the Quran is open to misunderstanding, and, hence, not perfect? - I am not a scholar: Another fascinating attitude of educated Muslims is that when faced with awkward nature or aspect of the Quran, they would say: ‘I am not a scholar’. I have seen it play out in many instances, e.g. a Muslim picks up the Quran, reads some rather revealing verse, and then rationalizes the whole unsavoury experience saying: ‘ I am not a scholar, how can I know the true meaning.’
What they fail to appreciate is that if only scholars can understand Quran, then Quran is not a book for all the humanity, as Allah claims, but for select few. - Apathy / Disassociation: Some Muslims read it, and they subconsciously dissociate themselves from the Quranic injunctions. Their attitude can be best described as passive lethargic thinking with regards to the Quran and its content. Their attitude can be summarized as: ‘Oh yeah, I read that. Ummm... I don’t know, forgot about it; so, what do you think, tea or coffee?’ These poor people are simply conflicted.
- Anger and frustration: This group of Muslims read the Quran, and they get angry and frustrated. Interestingly, what happens is that, rather than directing their anger and frustration to the Quran, they direct it to those who try to reason with them about its contents. Their attitude can be summarized as: ‘How dare you? Who gave you the right? Don’t be disrespectful!’
These people simply deceive themselves. This reminds me of a debate, I once had, with a rather modern-looking Muslim girl. I laid out all the necessary facts about the Quran (I had a Quran and a file with pertinent information with me), where I had marked everything carefully. She starting trembling; I could see tears in her eyes. She couldn’t refute my charges. Her reaction was: ‘You stupid infidel, how dare you say this! Allah will burn you…Go back to your country; it will be great to see you burn on a street!’ I smiled, because I knew that she was not angry with me. - Cognitive dissonance: This group of people suffer form cognitive dissonance, an uncomfortable feeling they have by holding contradictory ideas in their brains simultaneously. This dissonance manifests itself as anxiety, guilt, depression etc.
- The Good verses: This group of Muslims say: ‘Oh, but there are good verses in Quran.’ What these people fail to recognize is that verses of war and killing almost equal or outnumber the so-called good verses, and that the whole notion of good verses/bad verses flies in the very face of the Quran being a perfect book, or words of God.
This list is non-exhaustive. It just shows a number of the myriad of reasons that play a part and contribute to maintaining the concept of sacredness of the Quran.
An Interesting Pattern
Now, there is a pattern here. The Quran is mostly considered ‘sacred’ only defensively or retroactively—only as a result of the above-mentioned factors, which have nothing to do with the actual content of the Quran. There is nothing inherent in the Quran that is awe-inspiring. It is only sacred in so far as people do not study it; and in so far as those above-mentioned factors have the cumulative effect of stopping people from critical thinking.The Quran must be challenged at all possible avenues; its absurdities must be made public. People must be encouraged to simply read it, and analyse its content. We, as ex-Muslims and antitheists, must make sure to develop sound and concise arguments against alleged, but unsubstantiated, sacredness of the Quran. This is not hard at all. It is very much possible to tell the truth about the Quran. We can do it; and we must do it.In the next part, I will try to show how Muslim apologists try to create an 'aura of sacredness' around the Quran, their justifications, and the fallacies they commit.
Set as favorite
Bookmark
Email this
Hits: 843
Comments
(40)
Subscribe to this comment's feed
written by IK , September 27, 2009
Thank you for this fine article. I hope you would also send your work to FaithFreedom.Org so they publish your work too. Peace
written by knm , September 27, 2009
I absolutely agree with you and i believe that 99% of the muslims educated or un educated (and we know that more than 90% are uneducated) have never read quran with translation in fact they dont want to read the translation their knowledge of quran is based on mullah's teachings (who is paid for his job or a mullah is a person who could not chose any other carrier for himself) i strongly believe that the whole concept of sticking to the religions (particularly islam) is the fear of DEATH and belief in AFTERLIFE i have no clue how to explain to negate the religious concepts of afterlife in general (although i 100% believe that islamic concept of afterlife is bogus e.g a paradise with 72 houris and wines which was induced by prophet to boost jihadists instinct to kill and be killed)
Also even if we accept that islamic teachings were better than other religions at that point of time one (educated person) cannot believe that GOD will stop any further improvements in his teachings and guidance for the coming generations and different situations (we know that disintegration of islam started right after the death of prophet) therefore if islam was the best and perfect knowledge it would stay perfect for sometime at least.
I just imagine what GOD is thinking about his best humans i.e muslims who have failed to follow his teachings right from the beginning (muslims accept that thay could not understand and follow islam) HE must be very sad and regretting for sending His best Book and Prophet to a people who will not even read understand and follow it He must be thinking it was better He should have send these to any other civilisations who were much better then beduins of mecca.
I am interseted to know what options do ALLAH has at present (and this should be interesting for the muslims) either to stay weeping on muslims situation and wait untill qiyamat (day of judgement) or send another prophet and book (one which a muslim brain can understand) to guide them once again. i am sure ALLAH will not do this mistake again..
Also even if we accept that islamic teachings were better than other religions at that point of time one (educated person) cannot believe that GOD will stop any further improvements in his teachings and guidance for the coming generations and different situations (we know that disintegration of islam started right after the death of prophet) therefore if islam was the best and perfect knowledge it would stay perfect for sometime at least.
I just imagine what GOD is thinking about his best humans i.e muslims who have failed to follow his teachings right from the beginning (muslims accept that thay could not understand and follow islam) HE must be very sad and regretting for sending His best Book and Prophet to a people who will not even read understand and follow it He must be thinking it was better He should have send these to any other civilisations who were much better then beduins of mecca.
I am interseted to know what options do ALLAH has at present (and this should be interesting for the muslims) either to stay weeping on muslims situation and wait untill qiyamat (day of judgement) or send another prophet and book (one which a muslim brain can understand) to guide them once again. i am sure ALLAH will not do this mistake again..
written by JohanM , September 27, 2009
Islam is a mass hysteria where every adherent add to this hysterical behaviour by keeping an eye on other or by showing himself off more pious then the other. Then they all add to the competition and cycle keeps on going. They keep on parroting the same things again and again and feeling as if they are more muslims then others and try to show each other less muslim on each and every smallest possible detail.
The muslims who have conscious and find some terrible things in it which their consciousness does not allow they do not want to be stigmatised as bad muslims. They also seal their hearts and start parroting the same lies or try to believe as nothing wrong exists.
The muslims who have conscious and find some terrible things in it which their consciousness does not allow they do not want to be stigmatised as bad muslims. They also seal their hearts and start parroting the same lies or try to believe as nothing wrong exists.
written by vbv , September 27, 2009
What is sacred? It is an attribute given to something that should not be questioned or quizzed, to be held in awe, to meekly accept its irrationalities and the existence of a non-existing supersnook called 'God/Allah/Yahweh/Ishvar/Bhagvan/Deity/etc. And millions of zombies accept this and the diktats of the clergy/preist/theocratic goons called mullahs or imams ,etc as this divine word is inviolable'! Ptchah! What bullshit! Get rid of the sacred/divine and follow the path of reason and science ,the world will be saved of much of the hatred ,exclusivism ,holier than thou intolerance, turmoils ,violation of humanrights and wars. Sacred and the divine are the shelters of charlatans/scoundrels who want unquestioned power over the masses to bend before their will and easy way to pelf and sloth. Sacred and Divine are the wickedest terms - a sugar coating deception to cover all the evil,criminal tendencies by claiming divine sanction. The more sacred the claim is ,the bigger the lie and hypocrisy. So scrap the word sacred ,divine,holy,etc as terms used for deception and subjugation of innocent and gullible people.
written by plain talk , September 27, 2009
According to you, evil is not just Islam, but everyone on the earth. According to Islam, evil is everyone but muslims.
You are both wrong. These are the ideas, be it Islam or yours, that bring misery. For some reason you sound like a muslim, maybe a mullah?
The only difference is you feel everyone, except yourself, is evil.
You are both wrong. These are the ideas, be it Islam or yours, that bring misery. For some reason you sound like a muslim, maybe a mullah?
The only difference is you feel everyone, except yourself, is evil.
written by Jjohn , September 27, 2009
By time I got to number three of that second list, I was remembering so many well meaning Muslims I have met in my time.
I was looking at a picture of the face of one of the young men who were arrested for trying to bomb things this week.
I have seen mean faces. I have seen ruthless faces and angry faces, but his face was none of those. It was a rather handsome face, unlined by hatred. There wasn't so much as a scowl line.
His face said "I am docile and obedient". I cannot recall meeting a Muslim who did not strike me as being docile and obedient. Though of course there must be many Muslims who are not so easily led, I simply haven't met them.
This fellow isn't actually a soldier... not a warrior, not a confrontational person.. he's a a sheep. This young fellow has been bred for being easily led.
Islamic culture chooses followers. The ones who can't or won't ask questions about what they are told, are preserved. Family lines of independently thinking people seem to have been weeded out by 14 centuries of selective breeding.
Religion aside, this kid is no rebel. He looks like a good boy trying to make his parents proud. Reading his biography, he's intelligent and enterprising. He's a hard worker.
People who know him well swear he could never do such a thing.
I want to think nice docile, easily led people are somehow better than rebellious confrontational people.... but obviously a mouse like this kid can be much more dangerous than a conventional criminal.
If it wasn't for the "mob mentality" that can happen when you get a bunch of sheep-like people together in a group, this guy wouldn't be a threat to anyone.
Well, now his life is ruined. He'll be getting adjusted to new masters, and learning how to become resentful and truly hateful in prison.
Well, heck... What do they say? "Allah knows best"
I was looking at a picture of the face of one of the young men who were arrested for trying to bomb things this week.
I have seen mean faces. I have seen ruthless faces and angry faces, but his face was none of those. It was a rather handsome face, unlined by hatred. There wasn't so much as a scowl line.
His face said "I am docile and obedient". I cannot recall meeting a Muslim who did not strike me as being docile and obedient. Though of course there must be many Muslims who are not so easily led, I simply haven't met them.
This fellow isn't actually a soldier... not a warrior, not a confrontational person.. he's a a sheep. This young fellow has been bred for being easily led.
Islamic culture chooses followers. The ones who can't or won't ask questions about what they are told, are preserved. Family lines of independently thinking people seem to have been weeded out by 14 centuries of selective breeding.
Religion aside, this kid is no rebel. He looks like a good boy trying to make his parents proud. Reading his biography, he's intelligent and enterprising. He's a hard worker.
People who know him well swear he could never do such a thing.
I want to think nice docile, easily led people are somehow better than rebellious confrontational people.... but obviously a mouse like this kid can be much more dangerous than a conventional criminal.
If it wasn't for the "mob mentality" that can happen when you get a bunch of sheep-like people together in a group, this guy wouldn't be a threat to anyone.
Well, now his life is ruined. He'll be getting adjusted to new masters, and learning how to become resentful and truly hateful in prison.
Well, heck... What do they say? "Allah knows best"
written by plain talk , September 27, 2009
I would like to suggest another group. These are people, usually men, who have read the Quran and have a very good understanding of its content. I have seen how converts busy themselves with reading this book. They are delighted. It is a complete answer to them.
This is a book that will attract evil. It will excuse all the horrible things they know about themselves and add some more they haven't yet thought of.
I think we need to acknowledge that there are a large number of people, who really do perfer evil. It is their chosen path where they will find acceptance with other like-minded people.
They will never leave the book that validates their hearts desire. Evil really does exist and people do choose their path.
This world will never have peace as long as Islam continues to exist. It has to be fought to it's death.
This is a book that will attract evil. It will excuse all the horrible things they know about themselves and add some more they haven't yet thought of.
I think we need to acknowledge that there are a large number of people, who really do perfer evil. It is their chosen path where they will find acceptance with other like-minded people.
They will never leave the book that validates their hearts desire. Evil really does exist and people do choose their path.
This world will never have peace as long as Islam continues to exist. It has to be fought to it's death.
written by Arslan Shaukat , September 27, 2009
Thanks everyone for your kind response.
I agree with you Plain talk. you have raised a valid point .
Plain talk, I believe Pedophiles will be attracted to Islam.
i do not say this in sarcasm i say this as I believe it is a literal truth.
Islam sanctifies pedophilia (Muhammad and Umar come to mind).
If I ever get a chance I will conduct a research on the prevalence of pedophilia in Pakistani Madrassahs.
It will be fascinating. I believe it is rampant and mullahs do molest most of the students.
Although I know how to go about conducting such a research but I donot know how I may be able to get my research declared or deemed authentic.
Any ideas as how to go about conducting an authentic research.
peace
I agree with you Plain talk. you have raised a valid point .
Plain talk, I believe Pedophiles will be attracted to Islam.
i do not say this in sarcasm i say this as I believe it is a literal truth.
Islam sanctifies pedophilia (Muhammad and Umar come to mind).
If I ever get a chance I will conduct a research on the prevalence of pedophilia in Pakistani Madrassahs.
It will be fascinating. I believe it is rampant and mullahs do molest most of the students.
Although I know how to go about conducting such a research but I donot know how I may be able to get my research declared or deemed authentic.
Any ideas as how to go about conducting an authentic research.
peace
written by Jjohn , September 27, 2009
Hello plain talk
I don't think vbv is calling everyone except himself evil. I think he's saying that the very idea of a god is extra baggage for humanity that ties us to a primitive mind set.
The argument against gods can be very powerful and persuasive, especially given phenomena like Islam or Christianity before it was forcibly disarmed by secularists.
The difficulty is that human beings seem to be able to convince themselves of absolutely anything. It doesn't really matter how wacky or crazy a religion might be. In our history we have worshiped everything from insects to other people.
We are so good at this kind of thing that we can base a religion on love, then use that religion to justify war, and never have it occur to us that we've betrayed our own ideals.
I am sure Muslims can talk about how Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance as they walk home from a stoning. Why not? Certainly in the history of Christianity heretics were tortured and killed in Jesus' name.
Whether or not the gods exist, and whether or not concepts such as "sacredness" have real value, our problem is not really Jesus or Mohammed. Those guys may have had a lot to say at one time... but these days I'm not sure how much we can blame them for our troubles.
Human beings have been to the moon, we have invented powerful computer networks that can send messages across the globe, we have mapped the human genome and cured diseases like polio.
The gods have not interfered with us. They have not led us or judged us. There were no gods involved with 9/11. It is easy to argue that we are our own worst enemy.
In my opinion, of course.
I don't think vbv is calling everyone except himself evil. I think he's saying that the very idea of a god is extra baggage for humanity that ties us to a primitive mind set.
The argument against gods can be very powerful and persuasive, especially given phenomena like Islam or Christianity before it was forcibly disarmed by secularists.
The difficulty is that human beings seem to be able to convince themselves of absolutely anything. It doesn't really matter how wacky or crazy a religion might be. In our history we have worshiped everything from insects to other people.
We are so good at this kind of thing that we can base a religion on love, then use that religion to justify war, and never have it occur to us that we've betrayed our own ideals.
I am sure Muslims can talk about how Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance as they walk home from a stoning. Why not? Certainly in the history of Christianity heretics were tortured and killed in Jesus' name.
Whether or not the gods exist, and whether or not concepts such as "sacredness" have real value, our problem is not really Jesus or Mohammed. Those guys may have had a lot to say at one time... but these days I'm not sure how much we can blame them for our troubles.
Human beings have been to the moon, we have invented powerful computer networks that can send messages across the globe, we have mapped the human genome and cured diseases like polio.
The gods have not interfered with us. They have not led us or judged us. There were no gods involved with 9/11. It is easy to argue that we are our own worst enemy.
In my opinion, of course.
written by Azmi , September 27, 2009
I live in a non-Arab muslim country. I would say that more than 85% of the muslims in this country do not have any idea what the Koran says. They read the Koran, (especially in sacred months like Ramazan), many times, from beginning to the end without understanding the meaning of a single word. They were told that just reading is enough to bring them plenty of blessings from Allah. There is in fact a translation of the Koran in the language spoken in this country, but I have not seen anyone reading from it. Most muslims here are quite moderate and they are very friendly with non muslims too. So on the whole, as long as muslims do not know the meaning of the words in the Koran, they are happy, peaceful and friendly. Of course those mullahs who preach hate can make ignorant muslims violent.
written by balam , September 27, 2009
The Muslims are basically IDOL worshippers.The worship Allah-a pagan moon god which was worshipped by pre-Islamic pagan Arabs.They revere and worship Mohammad more than Allah.They turn violent if you say any thing disrespectful about Mohammad or point out any flaw in his life and character.They are completely brainwashed.Quran is the third deadliest Idol they worship.The Non-Muslims dare not touch it because they are considered too filthy to touch the holy book of Islam.Quran is like a bottle with deceptive label calling it holy vitamins.In fact the contents being deadly lethal poisonous pills with a few harmless ones.They all look alike.You take a gamble when you take one .The next idols are Mecca and Madin.In Mecca during Hajj they shout:Here I am Allah;In Arabic only.It proves that their Allah must be BLIND as not to see them.He must also be an ARAB,who does not understand any other language.Islam is certainly an ABSURD THEOLOGY OF AN IMMORAL BEDUIN as described by Mutafa Kemal of Turkey-a great man.Quran is the INCOHERENT OUT BURSTS OF AN IGNORANT,ILLITRATE AND INSANE MAN_If one could call him a man.
written by plain talk , September 27, 2009
At present there are a number of soldiers in the Afhgan territories who have been an eyewitness to the rape of young boys. It is a long standing custom that has been going on century after century. They call it Thursday Night Man Love. This is so common, they don't bother to hide it from anyone. It is taken for granted. The boys are given a few small presents afterwards.
If a soldier tries to stop this rape of boys, he will find the boy's body a day or two later. They will murder the child in revenge.
Woe to those who call right wrong.
If a soldier tries to stop this rape of boys, he will find the boy's body a day or two later. They will murder the child in revenge.
Woe to those who call right wrong.
written by plain talk , September 27, 2009
There is plenty of evidence. Follow the trail of murder, rape, horror and mindless cruel acts.
Woe to those who call wrong right.
Woe to those who call wrong right.
written by Someone , September 27, 2009
This is an excellent article and I can surely see many similarities in what you list and what I have personally experienced.
And to be honest, in one way it's completely understandable. This is some food for thought for non-muslims who've never been a muslim. Imagine you are raised with a certain ideology, with the idea that the existence of God is simply a fact. Imagine you are constantly told how perfect it is, and the more beautiful parts of your religion such as giving equal rights to women and tolerating the ideas and religions of other people (lies). Imagine living 20 to 30 years with that ideology in the back of your head. Abstaining yourself from pork, from alcohol, avoiding contact with the other sex, staying virgin until marriage (in case of muslimas since males usually disregard this). And then, after letting it control your life for all those years and severely limiting your freedom during the most wonderful time of your life, your childhood, puberty and young adult periods, someone comes along and confronts you with the atrocious things your religion preaches and the absurd amount of ridicilous errors it contains.
It must be a mind shattering experience. You've been living for years with the idea that you follow the perfect and the only true religion, that it is a blessing for you to be born as muslim. Only to realize it was nothing but a curse later on. To admit you were wrong for years on such a huge matter. We all know how shameful it can be to admit you were wrong on something. You are basically telling them they've wasted years of their life living according to a dusty old book that's full of errors and atrocious commands. Years they can never get back.
This is why a lot of muslims rather choose to become ignorant and close their ears and eyes rather than admitting their mistake.
It's also very hard for me, someone who has a lot of muslim friends. I'm constantly carrying around all this knowledge, but I don't want to hurt them personally by confronting them with it. When I see them fasting, falling in love with someone but choosing to avoid a relationship because it's haram, being curious about alcohol but not being able to try it and so on, I have to bite my tongue to not start up the discussion. I really don't know how I should approach them without damaging the friendship.
From time to time the subject rises up and I'll reluctantly shed some light on it and they themselves even admit that they were astonished by what they read sometimes but they just blame it on the translation or the idea that they need a higher authority to help them understand it. I remember telling one friend that Muhammad married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9, she couldn't believe it. The next day she returned to me to say that she asked her parents or something and they said she was 18 when she married. She simply accepted this without any backup for the statement, simply because it's more comforting for her than the real truth.
I really wish someone would come up with a good guide to snap people out of this misery.
And to be honest, in one way it's completely understandable. This is some food for thought for non-muslims who've never been a muslim. Imagine you are raised with a certain ideology, with the idea that the existence of God is simply a fact. Imagine you are constantly told how perfect it is, and the more beautiful parts of your religion such as giving equal rights to women and tolerating the ideas and religions of other people (lies). Imagine living 20 to 30 years with that ideology in the back of your head. Abstaining yourself from pork, from alcohol, avoiding contact with the other sex, staying virgin until marriage (in case of muslimas since males usually disregard this). And then, after letting it control your life for all those years and severely limiting your freedom during the most wonderful time of your life, your childhood, puberty and young adult periods, someone comes along and confronts you with the atrocious things your religion preaches and the absurd amount of ridicilous errors it contains.
It must be a mind shattering experience. You've been living for years with the idea that you follow the perfect and the only true religion, that it is a blessing for you to be born as muslim. Only to realize it was nothing but a curse later on. To admit you were wrong for years on such a huge matter. We all know how shameful it can be to admit you were wrong on something. You are basically telling them they've wasted years of their life living according to a dusty old book that's full of errors and atrocious commands. Years they can never get back.
This is why a lot of muslims rather choose to become ignorant and close their ears and eyes rather than admitting their mistake.
It's also very hard for me, someone who has a lot of muslim friends. I'm constantly carrying around all this knowledge, but I don't want to hurt them personally by confronting them with it. When I see them fasting, falling in love with someone but choosing to avoid a relationship because it's haram, being curious about alcohol but not being able to try it and so on, I have to bite my tongue to not start up the discussion. I really don't know how I should approach them without damaging the friendship.
From time to time the subject rises up and I'll reluctantly shed some light on it and they themselves even admit that they were astonished by what they read sometimes but they just blame it on the translation or the idea that they need a higher authority to help them understand it. I remember telling one friend that Muhammad married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9, she couldn't believe it. The next day she returned to me to say that she asked her parents or something and they said she was 18 when she married. She simply accepted this without any backup for the statement, simply because it's more comforting for her than the real truth.
I really wish someone would come up with a good guide to snap people out of this misery.
written by plain talk , September 27, 2009
I do agree that it is understandable. Therefore it can not be whitewashed with the lack of it.
All young males are aware of the temporary marriage contract, the taking of 4 wives, the availability of children for sex, the mandatory hatred of Jews and Christians, the preferred higher status of men over women and the right to kill family members.
Young males are fully informed of these issues. They don't even have to be able to read, yet they know it.
Whatever country male muslims live in, this is common knowledge to them. To say anything to them about their corrupted lives, brings out all the hatred that lies just below the surface. So many will not say anything because they know the hate is great. This is their defense to continue their chosen evil.
Young males learn early by being the bully and cop to their sisters, female cousins etc.....
This is overlooked and the behaviour is encouraged by not only the family, but by the community. There is no acceptable excuse. Their everyday acceptance of things that they would never want for themselves, is plenty of evidence.
I notice the male muslims a quick and hard to enforce the rules and commands on the females. This is their petty power trip that soon becomes their drug of choice. Yet, is it not interesting they 'lose their belief' when it is time for male humiliation. They have been commanded to drink camel urine or be put to death for refusing. Do they do this?
There is no whitewashing. This evil desire to humiliate women is born of sick fantasy and twisted ideals. They are fully capable of distinguishing what beliefs they will enforce and what they will ignore.
If they do not drink camel urine, let those men be put to death. They might not be so eager to kill the women of their family then.
All young males are aware of the temporary marriage contract, the taking of 4 wives, the availability of children for sex, the mandatory hatred of Jews and Christians, the preferred higher status of men over women and the right to kill family members.
Young males are fully informed of these issues. They don't even have to be able to read, yet they know it.
Whatever country male muslims live in, this is common knowledge to them. To say anything to them about their corrupted lives, brings out all the hatred that lies just below the surface. So many will not say anything because they know the hate is great. This is their defense to continue their chosen evil.
Young males learn early by being the bully and cop to their sisters, female cousins etc.....
This is overlooked and the behaviour is encouraged by not only the family, but by the community. There is no acceptable excuse. Their everyday acceptance of things that they would never want for themselves, is plenty of evidence.
I notice the male muslims a quick and hard to enforce the rules and commands on the females. This is their petty power trip that soon becomes their drug of choice. Yet, is it not interesting they 'lose their belief' when it is time for male humiliation. They have been commanded to drink camel urine or be put to death for refusing. Do they do this?
There is no whitewashing. This evil desire to humiliate women is born of sick fantasy and twisted ideals. They are fully capable of distinguishing what beliefs they will enforce and what they will ignore.
If they do not drink camel urine, let those men be put to death. They might not be so eager to kill the women of their family then.
written by Ibn Kammuna , September 27, 2009
Hello brother, I make my living doing survey development. analysis..etc. I can help with the analysis part. What I suggest you do is write questions geared toward Likert Scale type items (like from strongly agree to strongly disagree) and have the survey items administered to people. Once done, I'll take care of the rest for you..Results, analysis, nice tables and graphs..etc. Email me at
\n This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
'>
This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
or via out brother M A Khan as we are in contact too. I can help with improving the design part too.
written by JohanM , September 27, 2009
I notice the male muslims a quick and hard to enforce the rules and commands on the females. This is their petty power trip that soon becomes their drug of choice. Yet, is it not interesting they 'lose their belief' when it is time for male humiliation. They have been commanded to drink camel urine or be put to death for refusing. Do they do this?
I heard and read a lot about camel urine drinking is advised to Muslims but first time I am reading that refusal of camel urine drink is actually punishable by death......
I am confused. Please furnish the details
written by knm , September 28, 2009
i strongly believe and the reality around us approves that religions are not to be blamed for the situation or the beliefs humans have connected themselves with. we cannot blame religion for the following realities
1. why black people are most unattractive, poor, most un educated and the most regressive
2. why white people are most attractive well to do educated and the most progressive
3. why colored people lie in between the two categories
4. on what bases god decides that william should be born as a white in a christian family or abdullah to be born in a muslim family and likewise the place
if we have to believe in a god then we have to believe that god himself is RACIST. A religion (suited to each category) will emerge automatically from the factors given above.
i believe it is the different categories of human beings who eventually invent for themselves a CONCEPT a DOGMA a SACREDNESS a BELIEF a SYSTEM a TRADITION a CULTURE or a RELIGION which suits there genes and they feel comfirtable living within that belief or religion e.g although if i am born in a muslim family but my thoughts my clothing my eating habbits my lifestyle or eventually i would say my culture differs from my father
if you see in muslim communities fathers have beards but sons dont want beards fathers would pray 5 times sons would not fathers would not touch alcohol sons would drink if available fathers and so on my point is that although both are muslims by name but actually their religion or concept differs in belief and practical
i am sure that science will prove that choosing different beliefs concepts and religions has to do more with our genes and it has less to do with external factors.
1. why black people are most unattractive, poor, most un educated and the most regressive
2. why white people are most attractive well to do educated and the most progressive
3. why colored people lie in between the two categories
4. on what bases god decides that william should be born as a white in a christian family or abdullah to be born in a muslim family and likewise the place
if we have to believe in a god then we have to believe that god himself is RACIST. A religion (suited to each category) will emerge automatically from the factors given above.
i believe it is the different categories of human beings who eventually invent for themselves a CONCEPT a DOGMA a SACREDNESS a BELIEF a SYSTEM a TRADITION a CULTURE or a RELIGION which suits there genes and they feel comfirtable living within that belief or religion e.g although if i am born in a muslim family but my thoughts my clothing my eating habbits my lifestyle or eventually i would say my culture differs from my father
if you see in muslim communities fathers have beards but sons dont want beards fathers would pray 5 times sons would not fathers would not touch alcohol sons would drink if available fathers and so on my point is that although both are muslims by name but actually their religion or concept differs in belief and practical
i am sure that science will prove that choosing different beliefs concepts and religions has to do more with our genes and it has less to do with external factors.
written by vbv , September 28, 2009
Thanks for your reply to plain talk . I am glad that someone shares my perspective on religion and 'god'.
written by Arslan - , September 28, 2009
brother, thank you for your response.
My idea of research is not yet finalized but I will definitely avail from your assistance.
It will be some time before that happens.
Thanks once again
keep the fight going.
Arslan
My idea of research is not yet finalized but I will definitely avail from your assistance.
It will be some time before that happens.
Thanks once again
keep the fight going.
Arslan
written by Machmoed elchalid , September 28, 2009
Religions are made up by humans. So there for it has nothing to do with God or a God. Now we know that prophets didn't excist. There is no evidence of Jesus or Mohammed whatso ever. I'd rather think that the hole religion thing is a government thing. The Thora, The bible and the koran are not from God or Allah. It's 100% a human thing. I'm not saying religion hasn't its uses, I personnaly turn to it everytime i wanted my intelligence insulted.
written by Plain Talk , September 28, 2009
Science will not find a religion gene for muslims anymore than it will find a gay gene for the homosexuals. What is found, is choice. We are free to choose for ourselves, no matter where we are born. Race is really not that important.
As all of us are builders, who get to decide what our own fate will be. Colour or country is not of much importance.
When you have a choice, like....will I murder my sister, a member of my own family and a blood tie to me, you have made a choice for YOUR destiny. It did not affect the choice she made for hers. We are all separate in these choices for our destiny.
Everything you do for others, is in reality, done only for yourself. It is wise to choose everything very carefully, because it is really, your own destiny. So don't blame God, when it was your choice.
As all of us are builders, who get to decide what our own fate will be. Colour or country is not of much importance.
When you have a choice, like....will I murder my sister, a member of my own family and a blood tie to me, you have made a choice for YOUR destiny. It did not affect the choice she made for hers. We are all separate in these choices for our destiny.
Everything you do for others, is in reality, done only for yourself. It is wise to choose everything very carefully, because it is really, your own destiny. So don't blame God, when it was your choice.
written by Someone , September 28, 2009
Ehhh what, how does you choosing to murder your sister NOT affect her destiny? You cut her life short, that's not something she chose herself. Saying your destiny is entirely in your own hands is ridicilous, in both the mindset of a religious person and a non-religious person. Religious people believe that everything is in God's hands. Non-religious people will say that the choices of others do have a (huge) effect on your own "destiny". If someone decides to break your back, that will affect your destiny by never being able to walk again or something. Unless you believe it was going to happen anyway because it was God's will. In both cases you did not have a hand in it.
The same thing goes with homosexuality and religions. Homosexuality is NOT a choice. It's a disorder. Just like pedophilia. It seems like a choice for normal people, but I'm pretty sure if you're a homosexual or a pedophile you would think differently. It's not something you have control over. As a heterosexual person, you should know how hard it is to get turned on by the same sex. Homosexuals have the same problem except with the opposite sex. The only choice they have in the matter is whether they give in to it or reject their natural alignment. Religions, same thing in most cases. Yes some people choose to follow a religion but most of them get born into one and their developing brain will be indoctrinated by their parents to believe in said religion. It's very hard to snap out of, as your view of the world has been developed with religion X in mind. Changing your religion is as big as a step as changing you gender is.
The same thing goes with homosexuality and religions. Homosexuality is NOT a choice. It's a disorder. Just like pedophilia. It seems like a choice for normal people, but I'm pretty sure if you're a homosexual or a pedophile you would think differently. It's not something you have control over. As a heterosexual person, you should know how hard it is to get turned on by the same sex. Homosexuals have the same problem except with the opposite sex. The only choice they have in the matter is whether they give in to it or reject their natural alignment. Religions, same thing in most cases. Yes some people choose to follow a religion but most of them get born into one and their developing brain will be indoctrinated by their parents to believe in said religion. It's very hard to snap out of, as your view of the world has been developed with religion X in mind. Changing your religion is as big as a step as changing you gender is.
written by plain talk , September 28, 2009
We are all spirtual beings, who create and shape our destiny. The time we spend in the flesh is very, very valuable to us for the 'building tools' we can acquire.
However, even though valuabe, the time here is quite short at the best of times. Some people live very short lives, but have managed to acquire a significent imput to their destiny. Others, can live long, but aquire little.
The circumstances we are born into whether with a deformed foot or poor country is not, what is the real importance. It is what we DO, that counts.
Yes, everything is in the Hand of God. It is His Laws and Will that govern this world and others. As creatures, we are certainly subject to these laws and each does have a part to play.
Unlike the other life forms we see around us, we are the ones who get to choose.
Our choices belong to us. Not to anyone else, just to us. How we have impacted others by our choices also belongs, only to each individual. This is fair.
The temptations and urges we have are challenges to select the appropriate building tool, we ourselves would desire, for ourselves. Because we really do get to keep our choices for ourselves.
I hope this has been helpful.
However, even though valuabe, the time here is quite short at the best of times. Some people live very short lives, but have managed to acquire a significent imput to their destiny. Others, can live long, but aquire little.
The circumstances we are born into whether with a deformed foot or poor country is not, what is the real importance. It is what we DO, that counts.
Yes, everything is in the Hand of God. It is His Laws and Will that govern this world and others. As creatures, we are certainly subject to these laws and each does have a part to play.
Unlike the other life forms we see around us, we are the ones who get to choose.
Our choices belong to us. Not to anyone else, just to us. How we have impacted others by our choices also belongs, only to each individual. This is fair.
The temptations and urges we have are challenges to select the appropriate building tool, we ourselves would desire, for ourselves. Because we really do get to keep our choices for ourselves.
I hope this has been helpful.
written by the main lure is 72 virgins an , September 29, 2009
the main lure is 72 virgins and wine.
expose truth of evolution,and expose fact that allah did not creat man from mud/dirt...and there is no jannat and no 72 virgins and wine.
nor any eternal hell which u go to if u disbelieve
and u get roasted forever.
nither so called paradise or hell exists.
its all made up childhood fantasy myth.
this is enuf to break islam forever in 1 stroke.
that is how i left islam and so did many of my friends.
i am ex-muslim from 1992.i am from india.
expose truth of evolution,and expose fact that allah did not creat man from mud/dirt...and there is no jannat and no 72 virgins and wine.
nor any eternal hell which u go to if u disbelieve
and u get roasted forever.
nither so called paradise or hell exists.
its all made up childhood fantasy myth.
this is enuf to break islam forever in 1 stroke.
that is how i left islam and so did many of my friends.
i am ex-muslim from 1992.i am from india.
written by all religionr man created and , September 29, 2009
all religionr man created and so is govt policy.
china is moving fast ahead,so is india,russia is also catching up,bcoz they r not interested in imaginary allah or 72 vrgins and wine.
believe in any imaginary deity is most dangerous thing a person.
if we leave religion and live honorable moral truthful life all is good.
i am ex-muslim and live a moral and truthful life and i dont need an imaginary god whom i shud fear to be truthful.
people who believe in religion do the worst crimes like usa nuking japan usa is christian.
same way stalin and mao killed millions,and they were atheist.
so fact is religion and hate based religious or non religious ideology like communism/nazism is real
threat to mankind.
china is moving fast ahead,so is india,russia is also catching up,bcoz they r not interested in imaginary allah or 72 vrgins and wine.
believe in any imaginary deity is most dangerous thing a person.
if we leave religion and live honorable moral truthful life all is good.
i am ex-muslim and live a moral and truthful life and i dont need an imaginary god whom i shud fear to be truthful.
people who believe in religion do the worst crimes like usa nuking japan usa is christian.
same way stalin and mao killed millions,and they were atheist.
so fact is religion and hate based religious or non religious ideology like communism/nazism is real
threat to mankind.
written by Ashish Patel , September 29, 2009
Websites like www.islam-watch.org and www.faithfreedom.org need to be translated into Arabic, Urdu, Hindi etc as these are the populations which need to be targeted.
written by arslan shaukat , September 30, 2009
hello brother ashish,
Good idea.
But these sites will be undoubtedly blocked sooner or later in countries like Pakistan Iran Afghanistan, etc.
Its unfortunate but these sites are critical of Islam and any Islamic country will never tolerate any religious dissent.
But still there are many people who speak these tongues
and reside in countries where such sites may not be banned.
Good idea.
But these sites will be undoubtedly blocked sooner or later in countries like Pakistan Iran Afghanistan, etc.
Its unfortunate but these sites are critical of Islam and any Islamic country will never tolerate any religious dissent.
But still there are many people who speak these tongues
and reside in countries where such sites may not be banned.
written by vbv , September 30, 2009
Pakistan,Iran,Saudi Arabia ,etc will block this site because they find the harsh truth of the barbaric cult of islam standing exposed. They are afraid that people becoming wiser will overthrow the tyrants who are used to all the power and pelf this cult brings to the few thugs who rule the masses with the tyranny of islam and its criminal idealogy.
written by 3X , September 30, 2009
I think even India will ban the sites in local languages given the nature of Indian politicians & media, who are either out to appease or are politically correct.
written by vbv , October 01, 2009
I agree with you ,since there are so many muslim appeasers among the politicians in India.
However ,it will not kill the millions who share rational and sane views . You cannot defeat one's mind and convictions born out of truth.
However ,it will not kill the millions who share rational and sane views . You cannot defeat one's mind and convictions born out of truth.
written by ponderer , October 01, 2009
To GOD by any name
If GOD would have been really there,he would not have tolerated his followers(believers) to suffer with hunger, disease and want- especially for the children(go to africa and see believe for yourselves-to the followers of all faith. 2. If GOD would have been merciful he would have saved atleast the true believers from the hands of the suicide bombers/hostage takers/random shooters and ordinary murderers throughout the world in all countries and of all religion. 3. If GOD would have been omnipotent why has he been dependent on humans to propagate the religion propagated by him. HE could himself turn the magic wand and turn the non-believers into believers. He is dependent for this purpose on the idiotic bunch of humans who can not see beyond their noses, can not think beyond what they can see, can not control their tongue & behaviour. HE is dependent on humans for the spread of religion, who are not ready to pay heed to sanity, civility, who are greedy, thugs , murderers, rapist and are ready to kill in the name of religion. Why GOD did not use the supernatural powers now to spread the religion, (By the way majority of religion use terror/war/killings to spread the religion. GOD can do without violence. 5. Why GOD has chosen corrupt people as priests, mullahs or whatever the name in any religion to lead the mankind. A blind person leading other blinds to salvation. 6.Why believers are violent after reading the great books of any religion , whereas they are supposed to give the eternal peace. Why it is that the preachers of religion incite hatred and violence instead of mental peace and harmony which a religion is supposed to give. 7. GOD should have written on the foreheads of the newborns abot the faith which they belong to, not the fear of ostacisation by the humans around him to follow the religion of their parents. 8.If circumcision was so essential to GOD he should have done it before we are born. 9 All the newborns should have been such as to recite the sacred books of their religion the first thing when they speak first i.e. imprinted in the brain since birth. 10. Why does the GOD allow other religions to appear and flourish (If he is omnipotent and all powerful) and then expects the violence and hatred to be carried out by foolish humans
If GOD would have been really there,he would not have tolerated his followers(believers) to suffer with hunger, disease and want- especially for the children(go to africa and see believe for yourselves-to the followers of all faith. 2. If GOD would have been merciful he would have saved atleast the true believers from the hands of the suicide bombers/hostage takers/random shooters and ordinary murderers throughout the world in all countries and of all religion. 3. If GOD would have been omnipotent why has he been dependent on humans to propagate the religion propagated by him. HE could himself turn the magic wand and turn the non-believers into believers. He is dependent for this purpose on the idiotic bunch of humans who can not see beyond their noses, can not think beyond what they can see, can not control their tongue & behaviour. HE is dependent on humans for the spread of religion, who are not ready to pay heed to sanity, civility, who are greedy, thugs , murderers, rapist and are ready to kill in the name of religion. Why GOD did not use the supernatural powers now to spread the religion, (By the way majority of religion use terror/war/killings to spread the religion. GOD can do without violence. 5. Why GOD has chosen corrupt people as priests, mullahs or whatever the name in any religion to lead the mankind. A blind person leading other blinds to salvation. 6.Why believers are violent after reading the great books of any religion , whereas they are supposed to give the eternal peace. Why it is that the preachers of religion incite hatred and violence instead of mental peace and harmony which a religion is supposed to give. 7. GOD should have written on the foreheads of the newborns abot the faith which they belong to, not the fear of ostacisation by the humans around him to follow the religion of their parents. 8.If circumcision was so essential to GOD he should have done it before we are born. 9 All the newborns should have been such as to recite the sacred books of their religion the first thing when they speak first i.e. imprinted in the brain since birth. 10. Why does the GOD allow other religions to appear and flourish (If he is omnipotent and all powerful) and then expects the violence and hatred to be carried out by foolish humans
written by Plain Talk , October 01, 2009
There seems to be a number of people on this site who write that Islam has a god? There is no god in Islam. The mullahs or whoever promote lust, power and violence as a means of their control. This is the work of man.
To bind yourself to the idea of Islam having a god, is to not be open to the truth of it.
No god. Just men.
To bind yourself to the idea of Islam having a god, is to not be open to the truth of it.
No god. Just men.
written by Rajesh , October 02, 2009
Good analysis. But I think another reason could be that off springs of Moslems do not want to question their parents (people who gave them life and nurtured them).
I am Hindu and do not know much about Hinduism but I respect it because it is my parents' religion. But my faith is not blind. If Hindus were killing and massacring civilians every day, I would call it a death cult and run away from it.
I am Hindu and do not know much about Hinduism but I respect it because it is my parents' religion. But my faith is not blind. If Hindus were killing and massacring civilians every day, I would call it a death cult and run away from it.
written by Mohamed , October 04, 2009
Peace to all,
I am a submitter to God (in arabic the word is "mouslim"). I was born in a muslim country in the East, and you know what? I discovered the true religion of submission (in arabic the word is "islam") here in the West. I'm an accountant, so I am very logical and methodical. My conclusion was that only the Quran had to be followed (in other words, I do not follow tradition and Hadiths which are believed to be the words of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)).
Just to answer some of the comments above:
1. The Quran does not say that non-muslims will go to hell. As I mentioned above the word "mouslim" means submitted to God. God says in the Quran that He sent messages before, such as the Gospel and the Torah. The Jews and Christians are called the People of The Book. There are pious believers within the People of The Book who do good and "submit" to God, thus, will go to Heaven.
2. If one criticizes the Quran for something, such as the status of women, fighting the disbelievers...etc ask yourself this question: can you do the same thing to the Bible? the answer is obviously yes. If you don't apply the same critique process to the book you believe in then you're showing inconsistency.
3. Another point is: one cannot judge a religion through its people but through its Scripture. Yes, there are many uneducated muslims - especially in the East. Their actions don't necessarily represent Islam. Social and political issues are separate
Here’s a website that could be a good source to read about what “the other side” says (www.submission.org). As you can see, I have no fear of reading from “the other side” :-)
It is sad though to see believers, whether Muslims, Christians, or Jews, blasting each other. We’re all believers of the One and the similarities of our faiths outnumber the differences.
Peace to all of you and thank you for taking the time to read my post.
Mo
I am a submitter to God (in arabic the word is "mouslim"). I was born in a muslim country in the East, and you know what? I discovered the true religion of submission (in arabic the word is "islam") here in the West. I'm an accountant, so I am very logical and methodical. My conclusion was that only the Quran had to be followed (in other words, I do not follow tradition and Hadiths which are believed to be the words of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)).
Just to answer some of the comments above:
1. The Quran does not say that non-muslims will go to hell. As I mentioned above the word "mouslim" means submitted to God. God says in the Quran that He sent messages before, such as the Gospel and the Torah. The Jews and Christians are called the People of The Book. There are pious believers within the People of The Book who do good and "submit" to God, thus, will go to Heaven.
2. If one criticizes the Quran for something, such as the status of women, fighting the disbelievers...etc ask yourself this question: can you do the same thing to the Bible? the answer is obviously yes. If you don't apply the same critique process to the book you believe in then you're showing inconsistency.
3. Another point is: one cannot judge a religion through its people but through its Scripture. Yes, there are many uneducated muslims - especially in the East. Their actions don't necessarily represent Islam. Social and political issues are separate
Here’s a website that could be a good source to read about what “the other side” says (www.submission.org). As you can see, I have no fear of reading from “the other side” :-)
It is sad though to see believers, whether Muslims, Christians, or Jews, blasting each other. We’re all believers of the One and the similarities of our faiths outnumber the differences.
Peace to all of you and thank you for taking the time to read my post.
Mo
written by reader , October 04, 2009
Thank you for your comment.
I think you must be aware of how the "Quran only"
is not accepted as a valid approach by most muslims.
What about people who are not of the "Book"?
What would be their fate?
I do agree with you that many people who are quick to criticize
the Quran, often do use a different standard to judge the Bible (I am a christian, btw).
However, for a revealed, Final Message to mankind, I do find the Quran to be inadequate.
If the Quran is the Word made paper, and Jesus is the word made flesh, I much prefer Jesus. And yes, I have read the Quran. I think if one is selective about it, choosing to emphasize certain passages and minmizing or reinterpreting others , then I have no doubt that the Quran can make one a better human being. However, it then becomes difficult, imo, to maintain the Quran as a final, and perfect revelation from God without some intellectual gymnastics or dishonest rationalizations.
I will check the website you recommended.
Thank you for that
I think you must be aware of how the "Quran only"
is not accepted as a valid approach by most muslims.
What about people who are not of the "Book"?
What would be their fate?
I do agree with you that many people who are quick to criticize
the Quran, often do use a different standard to judge the Bible (I am a christian, btw).
However, for a revealed, Final Message to mankind, I do find the Quran to be inadequate.
If the Quran is the Word made paper, and Jesus is the word made flesh, I much prefer Jesus. And yes, I have read the Quran. I think if one is selective about it, choosing to emphasize certain passages and minmizing or reinterpreting others , then I have no doubt that the Quran can make one a better human being. However, it then becomes difficult, imo, to maintain the Quran as a final, and perfect revelation from God without some intellectual gymnastics or dishonest rationalizations.
I will check the website you recommended.
Thank you for that
written by Mohamed , October 04, 2009
A verse from the Quran:
“Surely, those who believe,
those who are Jewish, the Christians,
and the converts; anyone who
(1) believes in GOD, and
(2) believes in the Last Day, and
(3) leads a righteous life,
will receive their recompense from their Lord.
They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.” (2:62, 5:69)
From reading the Quran, one can see that God's judgment is based on the intention. Basically if you sin without being aware of it, then it wouldn't be fair to be punished for it. As for, your question about the people that are not of the Book, my understanding is that you're referring to people who don't believe in God or believe in other gods. In other words, what will happen to people who are in breach of the first commandment of The 10 Commandments? (You shall have no other god before Me; in Arabic it's "la (no) ilah (god) illa (other than) allah (God)"; "al" in Arabic means "the" and "ilah" means “a god”, thus, Allah means The God, or simply God with the capital “G”- btw I hate it when people use the word Allah in English! it creates that sense of a different god named Allah; this is irrelevant to the subject but I jumped on the occasion to clarify this
. So going back to the breach of the 1st commandment, the logic is that God would punish those who refuse to submit to Him after being aware and convinced of His existence. This is critical because being aware is not enough; one needs to be convinced, then, rejecting Him. If that's the case the person is in trouble. But in the end, the only judge is God, He is The All Knowing of our deepest intentions, and it's our duty either as submitters to God to respect the beliefs of the others.
Note that most people born in a religion stay in it just by comfort and/or are afraid to even question it. I did, and as you mentioned above, many Muslims don't accept the idea of rejecting something they were born in like the hadith and traditions, ie following ONLY the Quran.
Now concerning the Quran as the final message or not. That’s up to each one of us to do our objective and logical analysis by doing the comparison of the Quran and the Gospel or other scripture.
Thank you for your kind reply.
Mo
“Surely, those who believe,
those who are Jewish, the Christians,
and the converts; anyone who
(1) believes in GOD, and
(2) believes in the Last Day, and
(3) leads a righteous life,
will receive their recompense from their Lord.
They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.” (2:62, 5:69)
From reading the Quran, one can see that God's judgment is based on the intention. Basically if you sin without being aware of it, then it wouldn't be fair to be punished for it. As for, your question about the people that are not of the Book, my understanding is that you're referring to people who don't believe in God or believe in other gods. In other words, what will happen to people who are in breach of the first commandment of The 10 Commandments? (You shall have no other god before Me; in Arabic it's "la (no) ilah (god) illa (other than) allah (God)"; "al" in Arabic means "the" and "ilah" means “a god”, thus, Allah means The God, or simply God with the capital “G”- btw I hate it when people use the word Allah in English! it creates that sense of a different god named Allah; this is irrelevant to the subject but I jumped on the occasion to clarify this
. So going back to the breach of the 1st commandment, the logic is that God would punish those who refuse to submit to Him after being aware and convinced of His existence. This is critical because being aware is not enough; one needs to be convinced, then, rejecting Him. If that's the case the person is in trouble. But in the end, the only judge is God, He is The All Knowing of our deepest intentions, and it's our duty either as submitters to God to respect the beliefs of the others. Note that most people born in a religion stay in it just by comfort and/or are afraid to even question it. I did, and as you mentioned above, many Muslims don't accept the idea of rejecting something they were born in like the hadith and traditions, ie following ONLY the Quran.
Now concerning the Quran as the final message or not. That’s up to each one of us to do our objective and logical analysis by doing the comparison of the Quran and the Gospel or other scripture.
Thank you for your kind reply.
Mo
written by Asus , October 06, 2009
The USA is christian. and they nuked Japan. Quite inaccurate. True, the majority of the USA is 'Christian' by profession but how many of them live by the teachings of Jesus Christ. I think their attack on Japan was even just aresponse. If they were really bent on teaching Japanese a good lesson theyshould have released more atomic bombs and cleared a vast amount of Japan's people.Those who took the decision to clear Hiroshima were not Christians in the true sense of the word. Infact I believe the US has shown its Christian influence by respect of life to some good extent. I know of all their wars. But to me if they really wanted to be wicked they should just send atomic warheads to Iran, Afghanistan and co. rather than keep using guns and other military device and seeing their own US soldiers loose their life. Sincerely speaking looking at the history of World powers and their real capacity to destroy men I would say the 'Christian nations' have been less evil. Those who decide to blow up places in Japan, Iraq, Afghanistan are 'officialy Christians' and have done these things for personal serving interests. Most of the US president are really occultic and are actually Free Masons or the rest of the demonic world. If u think Christian nations have been brutal consider what would have happened to theworld if the first nation to discover and harness nuclear power was an Islamic state or some other religion. Despite the US military strength it has displayed some level of maturity through diplomacy and even aid to enemy nations.
written by Truth Detector , October 07, 2009
Arslan Shaukat, just be honest. We'll take your word for it. Thanks.
About Satan's Bible, sometimes called the Qur'an. I have never seen anything in Satan's Bible, sometimes called the Qur'an, that agrees with the Ten Commandments. Satan's Bible teaches the complete opposity of the Ten Commandments.
For you who ridicule a good religion: What's wrong for example with "Thou shall not kill," Thou shall not steal," Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." It's silly to think that all religions are the same. That's just like saying that all atheists are the same. That, too, is silly. Some atheists have been downright wicked, Mao Tze Tung, Benito Mussolini, an avowed atheist, and Adolph Hitler, another avowed atheist.
About Satan's Bible, sometimes called the Qur'an. I have never seen anything in Satan's Bible, sometimes called the Qur'an, that agrees with the Ten Commandments. Satan's Bible teaches the complete opposity of the Ten Commandments.
For you who ridicule a good religion: What's wrong for example with "Thou shall not kill," Thou shall not steal," Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." It's silly to think that all religions are the same. That's just like saying that all atheists are the same. That, too, is silly. Some atheists have been downright wicked, Mao Tze Tung, Benito Mussolini, an avowed atheist, and Adolph Hitler, another avowed atheist.
written by Joe , October 08, 2009
Mo, you said
"From reading the Quran, one can see that God's judgment is based on the intention. Basically if you sin without being aware of it, then it wouldn't be fair to be punished for it. "
How is it that an atheist infidel such as myself, having read the koran for the first time in September 2009 can find passages that contradict your point so easily?
"Unbelievers say...'There is nothing except our life on this earth, and never shall we be raised up again'. .. He (Allah) will say: 'Taste ye then the Penalty, because ye rejected Faith'." 6:25-30 (trans Abdullah Yusuf Ali) By the Penalty it surely means "hellfire".
Throughout the koran it is clear that a division is drawn between muslims and non-muslims. Muslims are promised a Garden of Paradise; non-muslims are to go to hell. For examples of the latter see: 40:70-72, 57:19, 58:20, 66:9, 67:6, 67:11,76:4 I'm sure I can find passages between 6 and 40 that also demonstrate the same point, but I got bored looking for more.
There are a few passages that are a little ambiguous (such as 5:69 which you quote). The vast majority do not have such ambiguity. If someone does not accept the "Signs" or "Revelations" contained in the koran, then that person is evil and is going to hell.
Mo, you choose to ignore all those passages, and find one of the few slightly ambiguous passages that seem to offer some kind of unity between muslims, christians, and jews. Even in that, you are completely avoiding the majority of disparaging passages directed at Jews, Christians (blasphemers according to the Koran), buddhists, hindus, athiests, etc.
You are demonstrating the whole point of the original article - that even muslims who have read the koran refuse to recognize what the koran is really saying.
And far worse than muslims not knowing their own "sacred text" is that the literate few among them don't even bother to read the New Testament, or the Dhammapada, so you have nothing to compare the koran's minimal spiritual guidance against. Other religions offer far more in the way of moral guidance and spiritual enlightenment.
As Sam Harris points out in "The End of Faith" (p.216) one would be hard pressed to find any passage in the Bible or the Koran that could match the spiritual enlightenment found in any page chosen at random from any buddhist text.
To think that the koran offers any spiritual guidance is laughable when it is compared to buddhist works. I guess it takes an atheist to truly recognize spirituality.
"From reading the Quran, one can see that God's judgment is based on the intention. Basically if you sin without being aware of it, then it wouldn't be fair to be punished for it. "
How is it that an atheist infidel such as myself, having read the koran for the first time in September 2009 can find passages that contradict your point so easily?
"Unbelievers say...'There is nothing except our life on this earth, and never shall we be raised up again'. .. He (Allah) will say: 'Taste ye then the Penalty, because ye rejected Faith'." 6:25-30 (trans Abdullah Yusuf Ali) By the Penalty it surely means "hellfire".
Throughout the koran it is clear that a division is drawn between muslims and non-muslims. Muslims are promised a Garden of Paradise; non-muslims are to go to hell. For examples of the latter see: 40:70-72, 57:19, 58:20, 66:9, 67:6, 67:11,76:4 I'm sure I can find passages between 6 and 40 that also demonstrate the same point, but I got bored looking for more.
There are a few passages that are a little ambiguous (such as 5:69 which you quote). The vast majority do not have such ambiguity. If someone does not accept the "Signs" or "Revelations" contained in the koran, then that person is evil and is going to hell.
Mo, you choose to ignore all those passages, and find one of the few slightly ambiguous passages that seem to offer some kind of unity between muslims, christians, and jews. Even in that, you are completely avoiding the majority of disparaging passages directed at Jews, Christians (blasphemers according to the Koran), buddhists, hindus, athiests, etc.
You are demonstrating the whole point of the original article - that even muslims who have read the koran refuse to recognize what the koran is really saying.
And far worse than muslims not knowing their own "sacred text" is that the literate few among them don't even bother to read the New Testament, or the Dhammapada, so you have nothing to compare the koran's minimal spiritual guidance against. Other religions offer far more in the way of moral guidance and spiritual enlightenment.
As Sam Harris points out in "The End of Faith" (p.216) one would be hard pressed to find any passage in the Bible or the Koran that could match the spiritual enlightenment found in any page chosen at random from any buddhist text.
To think that the koran offers any spiritual guidance is laughable when it is compared to buddhist works. I guess it takes an atheist to truly recognize spirituality.
