Debate: Muhammed's Challenge to Revert MA Khan to Islam Again
01 Mar, 2009
A few months ago, Muhammed Abdullah from the U.K. sent us an email calling us ignorant and accusing Islam-watch of blatantly lying about Islam.
In response, I reiterated our mission statement of “Telling the Truth about Islam” and challenged to prove even 5% of our materials wrong. If so, I promise to return to Islam and close the site.
He gave me an impression that it’s a cinch to prove us wrong. He took up the challenge saying, “First I hope this will return you to Islam, I really do. May Allah guide you”, adding that “I only have to disprove 5% right? You have so much hate and bigotism that you've easily got 5% lying around. Insha'allah I shall expose it and it will be the rope that hangs you.”
He however also expressed apprehension about keeping our promise saying, “Secondly you're fueled by this hatred; so you're gonna obviously just say, you're own view twenty times over until I give up. This won't happen, unless I die.”
To start the debate, Muhammed picked the article, Can Muslims Watch Porn, Do Sex with Toys & Do Masturbation?, which, I must agree, is probably the weakest link in our whole content.
I have said in
this article that “There is nothing in Islam that says that you
cannot watch porn or do sex with toys… Just fantasize it as a
infidel woman, with whom you are allowed to do sex any way you want…
I do not see any reason that you should not be able to do
masturbation.”
Muhammed made a compelling case to prove this article wrong by
citing the following verse:
“Surely God enjoins justice, kindness and the doing of good, to kith and kin; and He forbids all that is shameful, indecent, evil, rebellious and oppressive." [InnaAllah Yamuru bil adel, wal ehsane, wa itae zil qurba; wa yanha anil fuhshae, wal munkari walbaghi; yaizukhum lallakum tazakkaroon.] (Quran 16:90)
On the basis of this verse, he adds:
Pornography and the culture of
pornography has all the three elements which God has prohibited in
the above verse of the Quran: Fuhsha; Munkar, baghi. Here is a bit
of terminology before we review the rest of the evidence prohibiting
pornography.
No man or woman should look at the naked body of each other (unless
married). Sahih Muslim
By God, I would prefer to be thrown from the skies and spatterred in
parts than to look at someone's private parts or let someone look at
my private parts. Narrated by Salman. Almabsooth kitabul istehsan.
Don't expose your thigh to anyone and don't look at the thigh of any
person even if s/he is dead. Narrated Ali ibn abi Talib. Ibn e Maja,
Abi Dawud, Darqutani. Tafseer Kabeer (Doesn't this prove you can't
look at private parts NO MATTER WHAT? 'even if dead', making movies
forbidden.)
- Below is my response:
Dear Muhammed,
Thank you for initiating this debate. I didn't make any serious conclusion on this topic from the Islamic scriptural point of view. I have tried to make two major assertions in this essay:
-
First, Islam allows, indeed commands, Muslims to capture kafir women by waging aggressive wars and to keep them as sex-slaves, rape them. I opined that watching pornography, doing masturbation etc. to ease sexual urge than engaging in bloody attacks on kafirs and taking their women as booty for satiating sexual urge as had been a tradition from Muhammad's time to the present day.
-
Second, I also asserted that watching porn, masturbation and homosexual relations are widespread amongst Muslims as well.
These are the points I can contest with you, if you are willing.
Of the rest, I have conceded that some verses have been interpreted as prohibitory to porn, masturbation and homosexuality; I mentioned one of them. You also mention some and there are more. There is, however, no direct prohibition.
Concerning condemnation of “shameful and indecent” acts in your quoted verse 16:90, how do you define what is “shameful and indecent” and what is not?
Sexual act between legally married couple is indecent when done in public view, not when in private quarters.
Scolding your son in the midst of a public gathering would amount to an indecent act; scolding of a father by his son would be a greater indecent act. If the same is done in the confines of home, no body would know; it won’t constitute an indecent act.
Attacking a people, plundering their wealth and enslaving their women-folk to rape them, keeping as sex-slaves, would not only be “shameful and indecent”, it will be barbarically “shameful and indecent” in a civilized society. But it is divinely sanctioned by Allah, engaged in by Prophet Muhammad and perpetuated by Muslims until the present time. Sudan’s Sharia-based government-sponsored Jihadi Islamic militia have enslaved tens of thousands in Darfur; thousands of women have been reduced to sex-slaves over the last few years.
If a woman walks alone in the street of Riyadh, Jeddah or Cairo alone at midnight, it will be so indecent to Muslims that, her indecency will sexually arouse them so badly that, the woman will undoubtedly be raped to teach her some decency. But in Papua New Guinea, in some African countries, in Andaman Island, in many Amazon communities, women walk around virtually naked. They don’t find it indecent, neither the men rape them. In civilized conscience, letting one’s unethical, criminal urge for rape loose—roused by whatsoever it may—is indecency, not how one like to live, dress in a society.
Numerous such examples can be given. To cut it short, when one engages in homosexual act, also common amongst Muslims, in the confines of their quarters, is not indecent; watching porn in the privacy of one’s home is not indecent; masturbation in privacy is not indecent, but when done in public view, they are, as is sex between legally married couple in public view.
Now if you want to contest my two major assertions mentioned above, let’s begin. If not, I would suggest that we pick those articles that are seriously Islamic theological content based. I may propose to start with Mr. Abul Kasem’s works below:
I look forward to a debate, which, it seems, would be a very good one. I also request you to try to cite appropriate references from the Koran, Sahi Hadith collections, original biographies of the Prophet (Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa’d, Al-Tabari)—the classical literatures of Islam, so that I can cross check them. References from outside these sources are hard to trust.
A month later Muhammed returned to say:
Sorry i've been unavailable for so long. Unfortunately this will continue but insha'allah not for too long. No doubt you've already declared victory for yourself sadly, well no, not sadly but yeh your rebuttal is totally full of holes.
I hope we can pick up where we left off in a short while.
More than a month has passed since he sent me the above note. I have given him a reminder about the pending debate here five days ago. I’m still waiting and looking forward to a fruitful debate with this undoubtedly knowledgeable gentleman.
MA Khan is the editor of islam-watch.org and the author of Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism and Slavery.
| Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism and Slavery -- by MA Khan | |
|
Purchase option: Hardcover $ 34.95 | Paperback 24.95 | Kindle edition: $ 7.96 | E.Book: $ 6:00 | Also available at your nearby bookstores. Look for cheaper offers on print editions at Barnes & Noble etc. "I read
your book and found it fascinating. It is one of those few books
which everybody, Muslims and non-Muslims, must read." I had the good fortune of reading this magnum opus... This is a "must read book" for all. The author (M. A. Khan) and Dr. Ali Sina are like two barrel-guns against the threat of Jihad, the world faces." ---Nausheen Najib Rehman (translator, ongoing) |
|
Name: Looks like he ain't comin back..!
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 11:11:46 -0500
Comment
Muhammed's probably wankin' off of his latest stash of porn magazines..
Name: duh_swami
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 11:36:43 -0500
Comment
From article: Can Muslims Watch Porn, Do Sex with Toys & Do Masturbation?...I don't think that is the question so much as can anyone do these sex acts while reading the Quran at the same time? Now that would be doing something. I don't see why Allah would object to that...
Name: Muslim-responses
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 11:56:19 -0500
Comment
Muslim-responses: http://muslim-responses.com/
Name: To: Poor and sex-hungry Hindus!
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 12:08:00 -0500
Comment
Poor and sex-hungry Hindus are jealous of 72 virgin myths! Their so many poor and impotent gods could not offer anything to them in their paradise! Although one of their gods Krishna used to possess more than 16,000 wives and young cowherd girls in his harem and yet he couldn’t even offer anything for his poor and sex-hungry devotees! They are so much sex-hungry that they may even go after their closed ones to quench their perverted thirst for sex!
Name: Vp
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 17:00:06 -0500
Comment
The Mohammedans and their little baby boys and baby girls as their sex slaves. They are so sick and perverted like their pedophile perverted bastard prophet Mohammad, that they have sex with infants and toddlers. They sodomize young boys and girls. They sick and vile Mohammedans and their perverted religion of Islam. LOL
Name: Philip Saenz
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 17:00:31 -0500
Comment
Mr. Muhammed Abdullah, I'm a Catholic, but to you I suppose I'm an infidel. If you don't mind Mr. Abdullah, I would like to be a bit more philosophical. Sir, I believe in an Almighty God, Creator of all things, not only because of my understanding about creation, but because of the many supernatural occurences that I, in reality, have seen and heard. Now, Abdullah, why do you think that I'm an infidel? What's your explanation? More philosophical queries: It's a historical fact that there are many different Islamic sects. You have Salafies, Shias, Sufies, Quranis, and many more contradictory Islamic sects, at least five dozen. I'm sure you understand that these Islamic sects are different because the leaders cannot agree where the truth lies. Now, Sir, is there anyone of those sects infallible? In other words, is there any one of the sects teaching the absolute truth and nothing but the truth? If so, which one? I'm sure that your mind dictates that in order for a religion to be absolutely unerring, it must first come from the Creator. Also, it must be infallible, unerring, for it to teach the absolute truth that is necessary for salvation. Now, Mr. Abdullah, which Islamic sect is infallible if there is one? Who is the final earthly arbiter of the "infallible Islamic sect" if there is one? I'm sure that the final arbiter has to be a mere mortal on earth, if in fact there is a final arbiter in one of your Islamic sects. Of course you could be receiving infallible truths from God Almighty, but I seriously doubt that. Mr. Abdullah, who is this final Islamic arbiter if in fact there is one? Is it you, or is it someone else? We know in truth that if, A MIGHTY BIG IF, there is an infallible Islamic sect, ONLY ONE can be infallible. Don't you agree? Or do you believe they are all infallible despite of the fact that they cannot agree with each other? I maintain that there isn't any infallible Islamic sect. If there is one, prove it to me. If you cannot prove it, I win this argument. If you cannot prove it, then I know that Islam is a fraud, a scam!!! Thank you and may the True God, the God of the Christians and Jews bless you. And of course I really mean that.
Name: jenn
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 19:01:35 -0500
Comment
Decent human beings dont convert to a filthy cult like islam. just like rubbish collects where there is rubbish only filthy people convert to filth such as islam
Name: ABC
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 19:30:55 -0500
Comment
All muslim are real infidel. They are gentile.
Name: ABC
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 19:53:11 -0500
Comment
They even speaking evil against GOD. They blasphemy against GOD. Do you think they will respect human being.
Name: ABC
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 20:12:50 -0500
Comment
They all will go to hell. GOD will never forgive their sins. GOD is not corrupt.
Name: ABC
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 20:26:04 -0500
Comment
They said GOD is evil person, satan a good person. They said God can forgive their sin. They all are telling lies. Where is GOD sacrifice for them. Talking is easy, telling lies is easy. But GOD cannot forgive their sins.
Name: answer to Muslim-responses
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 21:52:24 -0500
Comment
"Muslim-responses: http://muslim-responses.com" Maybe not a good idea to visit such sites, because they may track you down using your URL.
Name: Re: Philip Sanez
Date: Sunday March 01, 2009
Time: 22:00:04 -0500
Comment
My friend Philip, there are at least a dozen sects in Christianity too. Each differ from one another. Which one is true? Do you consider other sects as apostates of Christianity?
Name: HINDU GODS HAVE PENIS ALLAH IS IMAGINARY
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 00:40:01 -0500
Comment
HINDU GODS HAVE PENIS ALLAH IS IMAGINARY HINDUS WORSHIP SHIVA LINGAM - PENIS BCOZ HE HAS A PENIS AND HE IS ALSO MARRIED AND GOT KIDS.BUT ALLAH IS IMAGINARY DEITY OF MUHAMED AND IS JUST THAT : IMAGINARY. RAM KILLED RAVAN AND SO HINDU GODS KILL DEMONS AND EVIL DEVILS,BUT ALLAH CANT KILL SATAN HIS OWN CREATION.IT PROVES ALLAH IS WORST THAN KAFIR PAGAN HINDU GODS.
Name: GIME GIME GIME MY 72 BIG BREASTED HOURIES NOW
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 00:40:53 -0500
Comment
GIME GIME GIME MY 72 BIG BREASTED HOURIES NOW,ONLY 1 PROBLEM,ALLAH IS TOTALLY NON EXISTANT AND SO IS JANNAT AND HELL.
Name: I AM WILLING TO CONVERT TO ISLAM GIVE ME 72 HOT VIRGINS NOW...I CANT WAIT TO SEE IF JANNAT EXISTS...
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 01:25:45 -0500
Comment
TO : ALL TRUE MUSLIMS : U WILL HAVE A WILLING CONVERT IF U GIVE ME 72 REALLY HOT VIRGINS HERE ON EARTH THEN I AM WILLING TO CONVERT.BCOZ I CHKED KORAN AND ITS JUST LIES AND MORE LIES [ BY THE WAY I AM EX-MUSLIM FROM KAFIRISTAN INDIAN ] AND I KNOW ALLAH IS IMAGINARY.BUT I GIVE MUSLIMS 1 CHANCE,GIVE ME 72 HOT VIRGINS AND U WILL HAVE ME ON YOUR SIDE.
Name: TO : ABC...WE KAFIR GENTILE R BETTER THAN U JEW-CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM DONT COMPARE US TO YR FRIENDS MUSLIMS
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 01:47:24 -0500
Comment
TO : ABC...WE KAFIR GENTILE R BETTER THAN U JEW-CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM DONT COMPARE US TO YR FRIENDS MUSLIMS,WE DONT ILL IN NAME OF ANY GOD,NOR WE HATE HUMANITY AS MUCH AS U JEW-CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM DO. JEW-CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM R WORST THAN GENTILE-KAFIR-IN EVERYWAY.
Name: ISLAM ALLOWS PORN...LIVE PORN...JUST READ KORAN/HADITH
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 02:48:02 -0500
Comment
ISLAM ALLOWS PORN...LIVE PORN...JUST READ KORAN/HADITH 72 HOT BIG BREASTED VIRGINS RIVERS OF WINE,AND STUFF,ETERNALLY ERECT AND CONSTANTLY FIRING ORGAN....FOR CONSTANT SEX AND STUFF,THIS IS PORNOGRAPHY IN IMAGINARY JANNAT AT ITS BEST. IF IMAGINARY ALLAH AND MAN CREATED KORAN/HADITH R ALLOWING THIS IN JANNAT,WHY NOT ON EARTH ALSO ? SO PORN AND GANGBANG [ MULTI PARTNER SEX ] IS OK AS PER ISLAM.
Name: Excesayces
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 03:35:23 -0500
Comment
Some pakistani muslim retard above trying to create confusion between hindus and christians. As a beloved sikh friend i request not to fall for this.muslims can even go any far.
Name: Excesayces
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 03:41:30 -0500
Comment
To the muslim nut above, is it possible for a krishna to have 16000 wives. Dont you feel this too much. But it is possible for thug like muhammed to have 16 wives more slaves for his overwhelming sexual desire satisfaction. So think before type any nonsense because it makes you look like a fool.
Name: to : Excesayces its bad mulsims killed so many of sikh gurus time to get even and kill some mullas
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 05:04:30 -0500
Comment
to : Excesayces its bad mulsims killed so many of sikh gurus time to get even and kill some mullas
Name: Shafee al-Zindig
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 05:12:22 -0500
Comment
Islam sure is a weird religion. It apparently forbids watching porn, playing with sex toys and masturbation. If done by consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes, I really don't see what is wrong with that. Sex is not dirty and it is the only natural method to make babies. That is how we were all made, like it or not. On the other hand far greater evils like beheading, bombing, hanging, flogging, crucifixion, chopping off hands, genital mutilation, wife beatings, polygamy and intolerance for others are all OK with Allah. Let us see if this M. Abdullah, or others of his kind, can justify all of these real perversities.
Name: Philip Saenz
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 06:19:14 -0500
Comment
To the person who inquired about "a dozen sects in Christianity." Sir, The Holy Catholic Church isn't a sect. The Holy Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ about the year 33 A.D. That's a historical fact. On the other hand, Protestantism is composed of many sects, actually hundreds. Protestantism began in 1517 when Martin Luther rebelled. The Holy Catholic Church, the Magisterium or Doctrine, remains incorrupt. Yes, people being people rebel and go against the correct doctrine. When they do that they sin or at least go astray. But the doctrine remains intact. So you would be wrong if you blame the Doctrine or the Holy Catholic Church when one or more of its members go astray. The Holy Catholic Church is Holy because the Doctrine is Holy. The Holy Catholic Church is INFALLIBLE ONLY IN FAITH AND MORALS. That means that the Holy Catholic Church is the True Church. BE CAREFUL. I said that the HOly Catholic Church is infallible only in FAITH AND MORALS. So don't go into some tangent and start talking about astronomy, mathematics, science, or some other subject. When Jesus Christ founded His Church, He promised that He would keep it intact ONLY IN FAITH AND MORALS. This, Jesus has done by keeping THE MAGISTERIUM INTACT. The magisterium has remained constant. However, some members have NOT remained constant. People rebel and fall away and begin teaching their own brand of doctrine. Hence you have sects like Protestantism. The Holy Catholic Church has never contradicted itself in FAITH AND MORALS. Check it out. If you find a contradiction in the MAGISTERIUM OF THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH, let me know, and we'll both be non-Catholic. Let me say once again, THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT A SECT. If you are interested, buY THE APPROVED UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC CATECHISM. Make sure it isn't a catechism put out by some kook. Thank you and may God bless you.
Name: holy catholic church-load of piss like pisslam
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 08:36:48 -0500
Comment
holy catholic church-load of piss like pisslam bow to jesus alone or he puts u in imaginary hell bcoz u did not bow to him,as per catholicism,apostle of peace like gandhi will go to hell.such a hate absed ideology.also virgin cant give birth so catholicism is just another man created myth.like islam.all religion r man created but judeo christianity islam is worst of all.
Name:
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 11:05:09 -0500
Comment
"I AM WILLING TO CONVERT TO ISLAM GIVE ME 72 HOT VIRGINS NOW" --- Islam doesn't need a sex-pervert like you. you better have your closed ones!
Name: Ali to Mr. Mohammed Abdullah
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 11:42:59 -0500
Comment
Do you agree that nothing can be more indecent and shameful than killing an innocent human being and raping his wife? Unless you yourself are a killer and a rapist you will agree with that statementr. Quran by allowing the killing of non muslims (9.5 and many more)) and raping their women (4.3, 4.24,23.6,33.50 and 70.30) does both and Mohammed by doing both accoeding to quran and hadiths) left no doubt of quran's teachings.Mohammed , you are knocked out in the first round.
Name: Does Islam teach Violence? LOL
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 13:03:31 -0500
Comment
Must see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28uduv36OUE&eurl=
Name: Blackhawk
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 13:13:29 -0500
Comment
What the hell is ABC talking about?
Name: Re: Ali to Mr. Mohammed Abdullah
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 13:23:55 -0500
Comment
Stop using Muslim name, hindutva sex-pervert!
Name: duh_swami
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 13:41:09 -0500
Comment
I'm a little dismayed at Mr Khan's offer to revert to Islam if proved wrong...From what I have read here, I perceive Mr Khan to be an honest and truth loving man. The reason for my dismay, is because it is hard to go against the truth, once you know it. In order to revert, one would have to willfully kick the truth out, and reinstall a lie. I'm not so sure Mr Khan would actually do that...I'm not sure his truth loving mind would allow it...
Name: Philip Saenz
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 16:56:11 -0500
Comment
duh_swami, Your lack of sound logic overwhelms me. Where in the hell is the truth in Islam? ISLAM IS TRUCK LOADS OF CONTRADICTIONS. What have you been drinking? Are you on crack cocaine? Dammit! Where is the logic of you and your friends? Look, friend, Islam is composed of 72 contradictory sects. Which contradictory Islamic sect should a person join? Why don't you answer?
Name: Egal Abdulkadir
Date: Monday March 02, 2009
Time: 22:53:12 -0500
Comment
In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficient------------------- Dear Mr/Mrs Khan, To make matters worse on your claim of 'what Muslims do' isn't entirely logical: Example 1: If there is a perfect state, are there no criminals? (Short answer: Impossible!)--------------- Example 2: If there is a (perfect) barber, are there no uncut people? (Short answer: It's their choice!) The behaviour of humans can generally never be attributed one on one to an ideal (unless you believe there are absolutely (as in divinely) perfect humans). (Note the divine aspect). This automatically means that your claim becomes a conjecture (an educated guess). And guess what the Quran says about following your own ideas, without checking them? Sorry for being succint, as I do prioritize my time.
Name: To: To the poor sex hungry hindus...
Date: Wednesday March 04, 2009
Time: 02:03:06 -0500
Comment
It is only islam that offers 72 eternal whores to its devotees. After all their 'paradise' is a whorhouse and their fake god Allah is a super pimp, because he is a eunuch(no penis) and he watches his momins raping the 72 whores in his whorehouse eternally helplessly as he is unable to engage in the act of sex himself, although he is a male chauvinist PIG and a confirmed woman-hater.Allah is impotent while Krishna is super-potent and super virile! Hahahahahaha!
Name: duh_swami
Date: Wednesday March 04, 2009
Time: 11:57:28 -0500
Comment
Philip Saenz...What are you talking about??? Did you actually read my post? I am quite familiar with Islam thank you, and I don't need you teaching me what I already know...I have studied Islam for seven years. I hang out on jihad watch, I read articles here and elsewhere, I respect Mr Khan, which is why I wrote that post. It is a compliment to him...Maybe you don't like compliments to Mr Khan, if that's the case, I'm sorry I disturbed your mental stability...