Editor M. A. Khan had a conversation with a Muslim father, having a sexual relationship with his young daughter. Khan tries earnestly, but unsuccessfully, to have the relationship stopped. The man decides to take his daughter as his wife for life as a "god-written" destiny.
I have sex relation with my daughter since 2 years after my wife died. She sleeps with me everyday. Is it right or wrong?
M. A. Khan:
Being atheists, we hold that there is no such thing as sin, but we believe in right and wrong.
We think the disapproval of incest in most civilized societies is a good thing, a good moral development. We think it's an unhealthy relationship to sleep with one's daughter. It would be very bad for her future relationship with whomever she marries. We would advise to you to try your best to abstain from it, and encourage your daughter to develop relationship with good boy/man, with whom she can have a healthy, guilt-free, happy and lasting relationship.
It's a father responsibility to help his children to have as best as possible out of their life. Your relationship with her is definitely unhelpful for her to have the best out of her life.
Thanks for your kind reply and suggestion really appreciated.
First of all thank you for telling that I am not committed any sin.
Actually I always try to avoid, and to discourage my daughter from having sex relation with his own father; I even threaten her. When I told her I find a nice guy for you to whom you get married she refused totally, and I get angry with her but cant help it out for long and forget everything. And I do tell her, as she asks me to do (sex), about my guilt as being father and do sex with my own daughter. But my daughter always encourages me to do so; you understand what I mean. As I am a human, I can’t control myself. Hope you understand what I am trying.
So pls kindly tell me if I can continue this relation with my daughter as we sleep everyday together.
Thanking you again, waiting for your reply.
M. A. Khan:
Dear Mr. XX,
I am wondering what to write given your predicaments. You are a grown-up person, probably more advanced in age than I am. I can see that you are in difficult situation, stricken by conscience on one hand, but vulnerable to your human weakness on the other—not helped your daughter's insistence. Whatever I say here may not make any difference at all. Anyway, let me say a few things, as you wish I do.
First, the fact that—we say there is no such thing as "sin" for which one would be punished in the next life—should be used as a license to commit wrongs. We, as atheists, see humans as rational beings on the whole, capable of doing both good and bad, right and wrong, but should strive toward maximizing the good/right, and minimizing the bad/wrong, to build a better society. We are all, religious or non-religious, are capable of doing that, but how we indoctrinate ourselves influences the balance. For example, we can relate to the ongoing Jihadi indoctrination by the Mullahs: those, who come under their influence, tend to commit mindless atrocities as we witness all around.
On the question of whether you should continue the sex-relation with your daughter or not, you should already get that our answer would be in the negative, because we see abstention from incestuous sex as positive social and moral development. Yet, we also understand your dilemma, and the human failing (whether one is religious or atheist is prone to it; it occurs in every society, in every category of people, but only more or less).
Although you didn't ask for it, let me give you some suggestions that you may apply as you are somewhat keen to withdraw from this relationship.
I see that your daughter (not sure how old she is) has been unhelpful in your efforts to stop it. I would also assume that at the beginning of developing this relationship, you were as responsible as her; you had given some signals, which must have emboldened her to turn the father-daughter relationship toward an amorous one. And I know, once initiated, it’s tough to come out of it. When one asks for sex, it’s tough to say ‘no’; when the girl is young and attractive, it's tougher. And, an unusual relationship like this could be more enthralling and adventurous (for those moments)—which may make it harder to abstain from.
I also feel that your double-life, while very exiting for some moments, is no less miserable for most of the time: you are stricken with guilt all the time that you are doing something wrong, doing something gravely harming the future and long-term happiness of your daughter; and, most of all, you must be stricken with fear about when someone would find out, which would be devastating to both of you and your extended family. If you are living in an Islamic country, the consequence could be extremely violent; in western country, it would be a life of shame and ignominy, not respect and dignity. I believe I’m right in saying that it's a miserable life, not one of confidence and dignity.
Having these issues in perspective, I think you can take a few steps to abstain from it.
- Try gradually to turn the relationship between you two into the father-daughter one, which it truly is.
- Try slowly to be an assertive father than weak Romeo.
- Tell her: how you feel about it; how it's killing you; how miserable you feel because of above issues involved.
- Tell her that you are determined not to do what you feel is wrong, not only because of it's moral and social aspect, but also because you can't destroy the long-term happiness of your own daughter.
- Best tool still can be: you try to find a wife for yourself, more suitable for your age, and someone, who would be motherly to your daughter.
- Probably send her away to live with a relative for sometime for the attraction to cool down.
- Try to connect her with good young man, with whom she can gradually develop a relationship.
Doing these things is not easy; but it's a mess, having no easy way out either. You need to be determined to do things right, and follow one step at a time.
Wishing you best.
Dear Mr M.A. KHAN
Thanks for your kind reply and suggestion.
As far as concerned I already took counseling with some institute, which even cant help me so far after this sex relation started with my daughter. I live in a conservative Muslim country. One year after this relationship developed, I had worries that somebody will get to know about it, and I moved to another city.
I’m in my late 40s and my daughter in her early 20s. Even all these times, I discuss with my daughter; even I told her once before that we will stopped this sexual relation forever, and I will find some good boy for you and you get married, and after that, I will also get married with some woman. Even I drop on
you, you will find some good woman for me to marry.
I’m trying so many things to stop this relation. Even one night, after I fuck my daughter, I told her that I will throw out from the house and you will no more live with me; then you have no life. So she told me: I am your blood; you throw me out, and I will go for prostitution, which would spoil your dignity. I tried too much; even I harshly explain everything but nothing comes out of it. Once, 2–3 days even I didn’t talk to her. When she noticed she got angry too much and said word "What happened dad! Am I a not beautiful? Am I not sexy, or not enough, to satisfy you as a daughter or wife?” Words like that makes me crazy. And
I once gave her a slap after some filthy conversation. But again, the same continues after sometime. When I see her crying my most beautiful daughter, I can’t stop myself.
Even I sometimes get too much fade-up of all these, and think of murdering my daughter and go to jail and spoil all my life. But when I saw her beautiful and innocent face, I withdraw from everything.
So after all these, I want your suggestion either I killed my daughter, or have her forever being daughter-cum-wife, or I killed myself. Because my life is miserable after thinking too much; I can’t help it out more or think more.
Waiting for your reply.
M. A. Khan:
Dear Mr. XX
There isn't much else I can say about your dilemma. But, I don't hope that it should end in a violent way. At 48, you still have good many years to live and contribute to society. And your young daughter has her whole life ahead. Neither of you deserve to die at this stage of life. You are only born once, and you should treasure it to its natural end.
I still feel that you could work on stopping the relation by taking a slow, gradual step. There is no need to rush to stop it. Man has achieved so much in this world. If you have the will, you will be able to do it.
I feel that if both of you could get long-term counseling from a psychiatrist, that would have been helpful. But then, I'm not sure how practicable or safe it is to talk to a doctor about this problem in Pakistan.
I still suggest that you try slowly to establish a stricter father-like authority over her. And start actively looking for a wife for yourself. You have to take some tough decisions and have to follow them through. There would be some shedding of tears, maybe even a feeling of heart breaking of either of both of you. You have to accept it with firm determination.
If nothing works out, I will still suggest you to make the best of this life, without taking a destructive course. Human beings are not perfect; they have failings. An ideal society should accept this fact of life, and deal with it in a tolerant, humane way, although not all societies and peoples are yet prepared for it.
Dear Mr. M. A. KHAN
Thanks for your reply.
I’ve already done too much and can’t do anything more. I know that I am taking a decision, which may not be acceptable in our society, in no man’s land; but some peoples like you know that it can happen.
Now I will accept my daughter as my 2nd wife as it’s me and my daughter destiny, which god wrote for me and my daughter to have this relation. Because now love her too much, and can’t live without her anymore.
Reply by return as waiting.
Thanks & regards.
M. A. Khan:
Dear Mr. XX,
Since, you have chosen that course of action, I only can wish you best.
Just a point of caution: the believers in God would not see it in the same light what you consider as 'God written destiny'. So, I hope you will remain safe from the faithful of God.
Readers have raise questions about a few of my comments in this tricky conversation, which need a bit of clarification (see below). Let me also acknowledge that this case should not be seen as Islam-motivated; the person makes no such connection. Moreover, I posted this conversation to initiate debate/discussion as to how such cases be solved best.
1. Is the case real?
And concerning truth of the story, it may well be a false one. Yet, we have seen quite a few recent reports of father-daughter incests: one in Singapore (Muslim), one in West Bengal, India (Muslim), one in Australia (Christian). But I also believe that the occurrences more common than those that come out to light, because of extraordinary circumstances, like the girl falling pregnant etc. (that's what happened in above three cases).
2. How could I (M. A. Khan) wish this man 'best'. Am I out of my mind, a pervert?
I wished him "best" simply because, given they live in a Muslim country, both of them might be torn into pieces if people happen to find out. If they were living a Western society, the problem could be solved relatively easily. But here both lives are at risk of a violent end. I had that worry in my mind while discussing the case, and I hope that neither of them face a brutal end of their life.
All I could hope is that, given both of them are adults, at one point or another, they would come to a better sense, and stop this relationship. There is no easy solution here.
3. Secondly, how do you justify my saying: "An ideal society should accept this fact of life, and deal with it in a tolerant, humane way, although not all societies and peoples are yet prepared for it"?
What I wanted to mean here is that, given the society this couple live in, if the story come to light, both lives would meet a violent end. I am adamant that we should not stoop to this middle-age barbarism as happened in Christian Europe, and something, which continues in Islamic/conservative countries even today.
Such cases can be dealt with, tolerantly, by separating the girl from the father. In a liberal Western country, it could be solved in that way; but that option is not available in the present case, given the couple's location.
While some objections to posting this story have been raised, even from well-wishers of this website, I would be happy to remove it from the site. But I would also insist that we be able to discuss the issue, howsoever abhorrent it may be. It's part of every society, howsoever rare, and only an open-minded discussion can lead to a better solution.