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I Declare My Apostasy

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A Muslim psychologist and long-time preacher leaves Islam, and vows "to explore Islam and to expose its primitive nature as incompatible with contemporary reality."

farhan-qureshi apostate of islam
Farhan Qureshi

After years of having been involved in think tanks, advocacy groups, da’wah (invitation or propagation) initiatives and academic apologetics as a Muslim, I have I decided to evolve my perspective of reality and existence as knowledge has reached me and renounce my faith in Islam (readers may find more on Farhan Qureshi's apologetic work at his website Defending Islam). This was a thought out decision that took months of prayer, consideration, evaluation and knowledge-seeking on my part. Every bit as it has been a search for meaning and truth is has been a grieving process for me to realize that what I have been attached to all of these years is in fact not the ultimate reality behind our existence. Nevertheless it is simultaneously liberation and continued enlightenment that brings about serenity and peace of mind for me as well.

My apostasy has not been based on disliking Islam or its requirements rather it was based on a realization that Islam is in direct contradiction with contemporary knowledge involving and including science, philosophy, ethics, anthropology, and the field which I am most interested in, educated in and practice as my line of work, namely, psychology: the science and study of human behavior.

In the coming months I plan to contribute articles to FFI which explore the behavior and psyche of the different types of Muslims out there: the western Muslim, the mystic (Sufi), the purist (Salafi), and the politically driven (Hizb/Ikhwan) are among the many colors of the Ummah, each having its own set of advocates with unique behaviors and mentality. I have spent time and energy studying and experiencing the different denominations and sub-cultures within the Ummah. Having experienced their spirituality and religiosity first hand, having studied with their scholars and preachers, and having read books, articles and arguments from them, I believe that I have a grasp of where they stand psychologically and I plan to explore this more in-depth in the near future as I publish articles.

I realized that 1400 years worth of consistent Islamiyya theology is not what I believed was the ultimate truth, rather I realized that it was a primitive attempt at understanding and implementing social, spiritual, religious and ethical standards. These seventh century standards might give slight insight into how humanity, and in this case, Arab civilization was evolving and progressing from its previous ‘jahiliyya’ or ignorance, and yet effectively became stagnant with its own set of conservative traditionalism that would not allow Arab civilization to move forward. The only attempts at progression were the rationalist Mu’tazilites of the eight century which gave rise to what many observe as the Golden Age of Islam. Yet these rationalists were viewed as heretics and apostates themselves and would become extinct by the thirteenth century. Instead dogmatic traditionalism or Sunnah would thrive in the Muslim world and the European Renaissance with its progressive attitude would pick up where the all but extinct Middle Eastern rationalists left off.

Perhaps the most important realization I have come to is that I would receive the death penalty under Shariah law for simply coming to these conclusions or realizations. This disturbs me to the core and demonstrates how the Ummah uses fear tactics under its Shariah system in order to preserve and strengthen their theological and political agenda. What I am grateful for however is the opportunity to witness the evolution of humanity where we no longer are restricted by primitive forms of theology and law and yet we continue to strive for integrity, honesty, humility, character development, and moral stability. There is a promising future for our species and not a dark one as theologians are attempting to brainwash their adherents with.

As a Muslim apologist I remember debating at numerous types of venues including Mosques, Churches, Universities, Convention Halls and Libraries. Having engaged with notable Christian apologists such as Dr. James White, Dr. Tony Costa and Professor David Wood, I learned that the purpose of apologetics was not confrontation rather to come to an understanding of truth even if it meant evolving one’s own perspective. The idea of receiving an apparent truth is to embrace it, not fight it. The moment we try to fight an apparent truth or reality we begin to dwell in hypocrisy: understanding that something is apparently true and yet denying it for selfish reasons or attachment to preconceived notions. I want to thank Ali Sina for giving me the platform to explore Islam and to expose its primitive nature as incompatible with contemporary reality unless and until Muslims choose to reform it.


This article first appeared in Faith Freedom International.

Comments (132)Add Comment
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written by vbv , May 10, 2011
Welcome to the fold of humanity - free from the clutter of religion and dogma. Expose islam and also the frailities and foibles of all organised religions that regimentalise human behaviour, stunt their free thinking process and stifle intellectual development. This is true for all monotheistic cults ,which proclaims " either you are with us or against us". Any person who does not subscribe to that particular monotheistic cult ,especially islam,judaism and christianity is branded a 'blasphemer' and a 'heretic' fit to be murdered. Why? Because these monotheistic cults cannot stand criticism and rational probe by a rational human being.So they resort to intimidation and liquidation of all those who question its irrationalities and stupidities. They will not allow anyone to leave their cult .They thrive on fear and intimidations. These cults are the cause of destruction of many a civilisation and taking them to the dark ages - take Egypt or Mesapotam,ia ,or Persia for instance. India survived the onslaught of these barbaric hordes because of its thousands of years old spiritual and free thought traditions that was too strong for these barbarians to obliterate,though it too suffered stagnation and regression in the 700 years of muslim rule.The result was Pakistan and Bangladesh. Both backward and oppressive regimes under islam - also the most corrupt,violent and intolerant places in this part of the world. Good you have broken the shackles of an oppressive and most backward cult in the world.
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WELCOME TO THE TRUE HUMANITY
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROON , May 10, 2011

dear friend,

islam is in direct contradiction to humanity.welcome to the truth peace and humanity.leaving islam is the best thing a person can do and a best gift to his relatives and all humanity.
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written by Dick Nowak , May 10, 2011
Muslim countries are third world countries. Muslims claim that this is because a list of countries prevents Muslim countries from making progress. USA and Israel is usually at the top of this list. The truth is that Islam stops Muslims from making progress.
This is how :-
(1) Muslim prayers are much more difficult than prayers in other religions. At 5 times a day they are much more frequent and also they are at inconvenient times of the day and night.
(2) Muslims are required to fast for a whole month every year. This is a lot more
fasting than any other religion.
(3) Muslims are not allowed to date so more than 75 % of muslims are married to first or second cousins. This called inbreeding, it is them main cause of disability, and genetic disease in Muslims. It is the main cause of low intellligence in Muslims.
(4) Muslims believe that the jobs educated people have are totally effortless, and that their work does not count as work, so most Muslims have no interest in education.
(5)Muslims tell lies to make Islam and Muslims look good. Muslims tell lies to make non Muslims and their beliefs look bad.
(6) Muslims treat their women badly, make them wear burkas, not allow them to go to schools & colleges. Muslims believe that a women's testemony is half that of a man's.
(7) Most Muslims have no interest in science and have no science books in their homes.
(8) Muslims want to emigrate to non Muslim countries. This is a slow motion invasion because they do not assimilate and do not integrate.
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written by Archpagan , May 10, 2011
I would like to request Hazrat Reed Wilson to take up a project to ascertain how much man hour is lost on 5-times a day prayer.
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written by duh_swami , May 10, 2011
Good for the Dr...
The psychologist needs to consider why an otherwise sane person takes on the mantle of insanity in behalf of Allah...

Dick...The original order for prayer was fifty (50) times a day...Had Mohammad stuck with that, there would be no time for a pious Muslim to cause any trouble...
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written by Reed Wilson , May 10, 2011
"Welcome to the fold of humanity - free from the clutter of religion and dogma".

To whom you are welcoming vbv? She is a fantasy; A ghost_ a fiction. You can not hug and kiss the smoke or a shadow.
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True apostate
written by russ , May 10, 2011
Apostate motto: There is no religion higher than truth. Congratulations on your first step.
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left islam
written by Shariah4thevatican , May 10, 2011
i Am what was formerly ''shariah4thevatican''a Sub-Group of Anjem Choudary's.i also left islam,and am converting to Judaism Be Ezrat Hashem.i Benefited greatly from Anti-islamic cites.Judaism is original,islam is a Counterfeit.If i am Lying that i used to be the one behind shariah4theVatican,so curse me God.
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Fantasy?
written by Ravi , May 10, 2011
Farhan Qureshi is not fantasy. He was awell known islamist. Watch him here.
http://www.answeringmuslims.co...an-we.html
Unlike other prominent apostates, his true identity is in the open.
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Dick Knowac
written by Malem , May 10, 2011
(my third attempt at posting)
The leading countries are not USA and Israel, if you check they are
1) Muslim prayers are quite simple lasting maybe 5 minutes or so, they are only inconvienent if you dont want to do them, otherwise only 1 maybe 2 are done during work hours. While people are spending their time drinking coffee or smoking, you can get in 2-3 prayers!
2) Fasting is part of the deal with Islam, just like fasting during lent or others..
3) Muslims can date and do, you do it in the accompanyment of an adult, then there is a formal process. How does that mean I have to marry a cousin (although jewish people do that often).
4) Last time I checked all my friends were Doctors that were Muslims and so are most of their brothers, sisters etc....Check the ratios between all the countries then we can talk apples and apples.
5) I do not lie and dont try to revert pepole to Islam, I have better things to do, like work!
6) My wife is a PHD, does not wear a burqa nor do any of the muslim people I know. They might where a hijab, but a headscarf is not a burqa
7) I can only laugh as I have a degree in science, as do many of my friends...we dont live in caves you know. I live in a very modern city and we actually have books!
8) Immigration happens it is how coutnries get populated, sounds like you might have an immigration problem

Summary: when you dont know a lot about something, just list a bunch of nonsense and some uneducated person will believe it.
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to Reed Wilson
written by vbv , May 10, 2011
As usual, truth always seems a fiction to muslims ,while their imaginery 'Allah' and the cock-and-bull nonsense Quran seems to be the truth. Imaginery Gabriel, Jannat,Jahanum, Jinns, Allah, Houris,etc are seemingly true for the muslims,while the reality of this planet Earth is fictional. Muhamad travelling on a strange fictional creature 'Baraq' ,horse with a woman's head ,to 'Allah's domain is truer to muslims than all that they see in this world with their own eyes. This is absolute zombiehood, plain brainless nuts. Osama is now dead, can you prove that he has gone to 'Allah's' paradise to drink and debauch with 72 houris? No you cannot, because neither Allah nor his fictional paradise ever exists.
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Congratulations to Farhan
written by Editor, M. A. Khan , May 10, 2011
It's much more difficult for Farhan than someone like me to renounce Islam. And he has also shown outstanding courage to it openly, which will certainly put his life in serious danger.

I can certainly feel why he went ahead to renounce Islam so boldly. When a person as brilliant as Farhan, deceived by Islam, engages in apologetics, and then find out how vacuous, and how big a lie Islam is -- it angers, frustrates him/her.

I hope Farhan will take the best care of his security.

And a big welcome to humanity Farhan...
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biswas
written by saswati , May 11, 2011
all religions are explitative, hierarchical and anti women,with all our ability to reason,cant we
live
happyly without taking recourse to any religion?religion has only divided us,whenever a new
sect or religion has evolved it has caused divisions.
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WHY WE CREATE GOD AND BELIEVE IN GOD-----RELIGIN EXPLAINED BY SCIENTIFIC EVOLUTION BASIS
written by HARKAT UL JIHAD EI KAFIROON , May 11, 2011
WHY WE CREATE GOD AND BELIEVE IN GOD-----RELIGIN EXPLAINED BY SCIENTIFIC EVOLUTION BASIS



http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/157840/detail/


everyone see and send to all,it will end religion.
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written by Reed Wilson. , May 11, 2011
Farhan you did not leave Islam. What you left was worth leaving. This sunnah, sharia, hadis, sira Islam is no Islam. Sunnah, sharia, hadis, sira etc are various gods which almost all Muslims worship.

Quran which certifies all scriptures, does not legitimize this set of fictions. What was the necessity of divine revelation if man could make laws of God?

Jesus Christ fought valiantly against such man made sharia, much before Islam.

So Farhan, you will be inshallah better placed as compared to these hadis believing muslims on Qiamah.

I wish you luck.
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written by Reed Wilson. , May 11, 2011
Sorry vbv for my misunderstanding at first instance. Somehow I got a wrong impression that you were not welcoming the author of the article. I join you in welcoming Farhan Qureshi to humanity.

Your post was great and wonderful.
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Farhan
written by Rationalist , May 11, 2011
Farhan, this nerd Reed is a Quran-only Muslim. However, he doesn't know why Allah tells in Quran that 2 female witnesses are equal to 1 male witness. He is afraid of accepting mistakes or stupidity in Quran. Ask him about 5.33. He will cry for sure.
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written by Reed Wilson. , May 11, 2011
Rationalist.
"Farhan, this nerd Reed is a Quran-only Muslim. However, he doesn't know why Allah tells in Quran that 2 female witnesses are equal to 1 male witness".

Where in Quran Ration.?

"He is afraid of accepting mistakes or stupidity in Quran. Ask him about 5.33. He will cry for sure".

This verse is rosary of our illustrious Duhswami. He starts calling names. Who is crying?

Islam is awful without Quran. It is not Islam. Farhan was also scared. Good that he is out without much damage.
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written by Reed Wilson. , May 11, 2011
Mr. MAKhan. "I hope Farhan will take the best care of his security".

May Allah protect him.
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Reed
written by Duh_swami , May 11, 2011
Reed...Islam is awful without Quran...

Yes, but it is worse with it...

Reed...This verse (5:33) is rosary of our illustrious Duhswami. He starts calling names.

I didn't call you any names...I said you supported evil and then were depraved...Quran 5:33 is the perfect representative of evil...And that's only the beginning, when the evil god Allah gets hold of you, you can suffer the pangs of having your skin burned off over and over...That's evil also, but at least Allah does not demand you do that, he does it himself as a hobby...You only get to amputate people limbs and crucify, or kill them...and for what? Spreading mischief...
So Allah wills humans to be inhuman to other humans for the punishment of 'spreading mischief'...That's evil in my book, and I would venture to say I am not alone in that observation...

'Depraved' is not a name, it is a condition...You choose to have this evil condition, and you insist on keeping it...The karma is yours...
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You are liberated from the evil/wicked/cruel/primitive clutches of ISLAM.Have peace,love,happiness,compassion,nonviolence
written by kafir-shahid , May 11, 2011
Farhan it,is wonderful news. New chapter,new beginning in your life.congratulations for taking a wise decision and emracing humanity with peace,compassion,love,nonviolence,tolerance,purity,free
dom. All these values are diametrically opposite of ISLAM. Islam is slavery.Islam is hatred for all nonmoslems,women. Islam is killing.Please protect yourself from the jihadists,mujhahids and Mohammadens,mullas and their fatwas. Under no circumstances you should expose or reveal or come to face with the monstrous followers of ISLAM. wish you the best .
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Nothing except Mentle Instability!!................ (Human Behaviour)
written by Mohammad Ahmad , May 11, 2011
Acceptance / not acceptance or refraining for any belief is the basic human right of every one, whatever Farhan did its his will, and he will answerable to God almighty for this, remember not to any human in this World. (Please do not quote any other Mullahs quotation ---for apostasy, this is not true Islamic view, just bull-shit). Therefore, you will not find any hatred reaction from Ahmadiyya community except (if needed) to inform other members of the community for administratively for information purpose only.
Apart from organic growth, remember, whatever numbers your are seeing in any religion (in Islam /Christianity or even Ahmadiyya etc.) they are outcome of conversion of earlier one..
@ Michael you should understand and differentiate between three type of attitudes “human behaviors “ (as quoted by Farhan.. sorry to say he could not interpret this simple philosophy of human minds.....(i)Extremist Religious Group (you will find in any religion, like Burning
Quran, or killing of Salman Taseer due to wrong interpretation of concept of Jihad /Blasphemy /Apostasy, unfortunately its % is high in Muslims and remember -Mullahs are main Culprit) (ii) Moderate Religious – basic Islamic teaching (middle way), always preach balance (near to human nature /behaviour) that is true picture of Islamic education, (Ahmadiyya community at large is strong believer of this) and Muslims should be only for Peace , Love and Loyalty ...Invitation to others to this education "NOT Forcing" (iii) Third group is Anti-Religion (not atheist)- Its another form of Extremism (concept is all religion are non-sense, no Jesus, no God, No Mohammad, No No………..etc), remember its an extreme form of Atheist (as Atheist by definition believe in social values but anti-religion are always ready to kill religious people even practicing one)..
From the link I am smelling the third concept from Fahan announcement.....Best of luck for him. As he should have liberty to accept /belief whatever he wants, provided no harm/disrespect to others.. I am open Micheal and still belief that no one even could have logical answer to my presented concepts...As I always tried the same debate and even at last the person get converted to Ahmadiyya community….but please not Blah Blah Blah SOLID ANSWER ..if don’t have, please don’t try I love and respect your Silence.

See the instability in thought process!!!

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2009/12/thoughts-on-jesus-by-farhan-qureshi.html


http://www.defendingislam.com/debates.htm

FARHAN QURESHI
Farhan Qureshi is a Muslim who has engaged in apologetics with renowned Christian Theologians on an academic stage. A former Ahmadiyya who embraced mainstream Islam at the age of 17, he now authors a blog website defendingislam.com.



http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Farhan_Qureshi_(former_Muslim)

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written by Reed Wilson. , May 11, 2011
Archpagan.
I would like to request Hazrat Reed Wilson to take up a project to ascertain how much man hour is lost on 5-times a day prayer.

Granted. Man hours/day/ week/month/year or what?
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There are two ways.
written by Healer_999 , May 11, 2011

First, congratulations to Mr Qureshi. Him saying that he will be working with Dr. Sina must give nightmares to Islamists.

Secondly, my prayers for his safety.

Thirdly, there two ways for Muslims:

One is to denounce Islam like Mr Qureshi did.

Other is to become delusional like Reed Wilson became.

Then the world will be free of troubles.
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written by Reed Wilson. , May 11, 2011
Duhswami. "I didn't call you any names...I said you supported evil and then were depraved".

And fiend!!
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Good luck Farhan
written by Malem , May 11, 2011
I wish you the best in your life. Seeing your references to Sharia makes me think you were not in Islam as it was designed from Allah. Corrupt men came along and developed their own rules, Shaira, Sunna, Hadith etc.. These are not from Allah, but men who wanted to try and control the word of Allah, but we all know that cannot be done. Sure there will be silly accusations and attacks that Muslims endure (several just on this post), but in the end we believe in the word of Allah and he will guide us to a meaningful life.

Archpagan - If Mr Wilson agrees to tabulate the time for prayer each day (its pretty easy), I would like to have you tabulate the time people waste smoking, drinking coffee, scanning the web for personal reasons during work etc.. I think you will find that a small amount of your day dedicated to God is much better for you than nasty habits people was time on.
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Deluded one...
written by Duh_swami , May 11, 2011
Fiend is not a name...it is a mental condition...If I called you an azz hole, that would be a name...If you are in favor of fiendish behavior as expressed in Quran,, fiend is a good word to describe it...Your god Allah is more fiendish than a Hollywood monster...If you support that, you support fiendism, and then are a fiend...Sorry, it is you who own the title not me...I disapprove of Allah and his evil pronouncements...
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to Reed
written by Editor, M. A. Khan , May 11, 2011
May Allah protect him.
Allah need not protect him. If Allah stays away from his life, Farhan would be most happy; no worry, not prayers for his safety would be needed.
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Quran - the hadith collection
written by Chanakya , May 12, 2011
Quran only muslims are actually the ultimate believers in hadiths.

Quran was written in Baghdad around 740 AD. Quran is a collection of stories (Hadiths) as told by the purported companions of Mohammed to first Zaid and than to various Islamic scholars resulting in a collection of stories called the Quran.

The word Quran is not actually an Arabic word at all. it is Syriac. The textual history of Quran goes back to well before Mohammed (incidentally MOhammed's fathers name was abdallah - slave of allah).

I agree with Mamen and Wilson that Hadith, Sira, Sharia are all fake which offcourse means that Quran is fake as well.

Malem or Reed can you please kindly explain the Verse 111 The palm (who is Abu Lahab and why is Allah cursing him) and
also what is your source on the start of the Islamic Age? When did ISlam start and what is the source of your information (it is not in the Quran).
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to Chanakya
written by Rationalist , May 12, 2011
Chanakya, note that Reed Wilson has an escapist attitude. The palm verse (111) has already in the past caused headaches to him. He hasn't answered my question on why 2 female witnesses are equal to 1 male witness - according to Quran.
hopefully Malem will answer this
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Reed: 2.282
written by Rationalist , May 12, 2011
Reed, you asked me where in Quran there is a mention abt 2 female witnesses are equal to 1 male witness.... Read 2.282. You are heading towards retirement....

I AM SURE YOU WILL NEVER REPLY TO THIS BECAUSE OF SHAME N FEAR OF EXPOSING ALLAH'S FALLACY. Run, Reed, Run....
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@Reed
written by nonbeliever , May 12, 2011
"What was the necessity of divine revelation if man could make laws of God? "
Divine Revelation is a myth.
How could GOD/Allah/Brahman etc creations of man make laws? It is men who created laws and claimed that they are prophets and the their laws were told to them by GOD/etc. The gullible people believed and those who raised doubts were killed. All religions are political systems invented by the wily to control the weak. In order that their claims are not put to test they created their Gods and fooled the people through magic shows called miracles.

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To Reed Wilson & Malem
written by Archpagan , May 12, 2011
Reed, of course I meant to say how much man day is lost per annum on prayers 5-times a day in the whole world. Please also take into account the time lost on traveling to the mosque and back home and 'ozu' etc. I am quite impressed by your perspicacity and confident about your resourcefulness.

Sorry, Dr. Malem, you could not impress me. Mosque goers too waste their time on smoking, drinking coffee, chatting and gossiping etc.
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Ignorance is not bliss.
written by Reed Wilson. , May 12, 2011
Rationalist. Thank you. You write “Reed, you asked me where in Quran there is a mention abt 2 female witnesses are equal to 1 male witness.... I read 2.282 for you:
Believers, when you contract a debt for a fixed period, put it in writing. Let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; no scribe shall refuse to write as Allah has taught him. Therefore, let him write; and let the debtor dictate, fearing Allah his Lord, and do not decrease anything of it. If the debtor is a fool, or weak, or unable to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate for him in fairness. Call to witness two witnesses of your men, if the two are not men, then a man and two women from the witnesses whom you approve; so that if one of the two errs, one of them will remind the other. Whenever witnesses are called upon they must not refuse, and do not be weary to write it down, be it small or large, together with its term. This is more just with Allah; it ensures accuracy in testifying and is the least of doubt. Unless it is present merchandise that you circulate between you; then no guilt shall be on you if you do not write it down and take witnesses when you are selling, and let no harm be done to either scribe or witness. If you do, that is a transgression in you. Fear Allah. Allah teaches you, and Allah has knowledge of everything. (2:282)
You will observe that it is not 2 females equal to one male. Had it be the case four females could be equal to 2 males. The verse is debt-specific. For adultery four witness irrespective of gender are required and in other disputes you have right to convince in any manner you like such as video/audio records, DNA tests etc. The logic of second woman is given.

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written by Reed Wilson. , May 12, 2011
Rationalist. You write " I AM SURE YOU WILL NEVER REPLY TO THIS BECAUSE OF SHAME N FEAR OF EXPOSING ALLAH'S FALLACY. Run, Reed, Run..".

Please find the reply of Quran above. I wished following part of the verse in bold:

Call to witness two witnesses of your men, if the two are not men, then a man and two women from the witnesses whom you approve; so that if one of the two errs, one of them will remind the other.

I forgot. I hope you understand now. Did you notice how explicit is the verse and how important such matters are in sight of God!
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Reed
written by Rationalist , May 12, 2011
You are stupid like ur Allah. Why does ur God say that if two men are not available, then a man n two women? Why can't he say

A) if two men are not available, then two women, OR
B) if two men are not there then a man n a woman, WITHOUT the need for another woman for reminding her.

You see the logic here? To me Allah is fit to be a joker. I don't know what to call u since u follow Allah. Reed, can't u judge ur stupidity based on ur analysis?
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written by Reed Wilson. , May 12, 2011
Rationalist. You write " I AM SURE YOU WILL NEVER REPLY TO THIS BECAUSE OF SHAME N FEAR OF EXPOSING ALLAH'S FALLACY. Run, Reed, Run..".

But Reed did reply. It is not 2 females equal to 1 male. It is your wishful thinking.
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Reed, my condolances
written by duh_swami , May 12, 2011
You really get pounded on don't you...I bet that hurts...You must be black and blue and have sores all over your body by now...I'm not sure how many whoopings you can take, you seem to have endless capacity...Looks like the floggings are going to continue until your morale improves...Maybe you should start wearing a helmet when posting...at least goggles for eye protection...
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Women are inferior in Islam -2.282
written by lw1 , May 12, 2011
1. Two male witnesses or one male and two female witnesses.
2 MALE = 1 MALE + 2 FEMALE, taking 1 male from each side,leaves
1 MALE = 2 FEMALE.
Is there any secondary school child who seriosly will not get this?
2. Allah is also implying that women can make mistakes or forget,but men can't.
-------------------------------------------------------
This is another surah that needs ABROGATION.
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Archpagan
written by Malem , May 12, 2011
The last thing that I need to do in this life is impress you, or anyone for that matter. My point was, which completely went over your head, was that what you do with your time is your business what others do with theirs is their business, case closed. You can ramble about time but it has no relevance to the conversation. That might be your goal to take people of course about the discussion, good luck with that.

In terms of 2.282 As Mr Wilson pointed out there is no mention that 1Man=2 Woman, that is again someone who does not udnerstand the entire verse or Surah and makes an incorrect conclusion. That fact is there are many mentions of witnesses in the blessed Koran, and they do even mention the gender. Now to udnerstand this verse you have to look at the time it was written and in context (Duh Swami chime in here and say no no no). For most of the time man has been here on earth (from the days of Adam) until about the 20th century, Men have been relied on in financial matters. This Surah Baqarah is one of the longest in the blessed Koran and is dealing with Financial matters only, based on that fact it says for witnesses gather 2 men or 1 man and 2 women. That being said if you were being diagnosed for a disease, you would probably get two opinions from two experts, if only one expert was available you might take the opinion of 2 additional general practitioners. So to review, this is for only financial matters and it was based on the role of men for the several thousand years.

if you want to make a valid argument, you need to present the entire Surah or at minimum a majority of the verse and then go from there. I can pick every other word out of the Wall Street Journal and come up with some insane sounding verse, but that is not valid or true. Peace to you all.
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To Malem -Does a Woman PM in a Muslim country need another woman for support?
written by lw1 , May 12, 2011
Muslims say that Quran is guide for living for every person for ever.
If that is so, Allah should have known that the present time is different from the 7th century. There has been a Prime Minister in Bangladesh, so does she need another woman supporting her in case she forgets or makes a mistake.
Allah has made another mistake and 2.282 needs to be abrogated.
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lw1
written by Malem , May 12, 2011
Of course she doesnt, she already has 7 advisors and another 40 people in her cabinet, most of whom are men. So I would venture a guess that she has all the input she can handle and does not need the advice of another woman by her side. There is not mistake in the Quran , thus no abrogration required.
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Malman
written by Duh_swami , May 12, 2011
' My point was, which completely went over your head, was that what you do with your time is your business what others do with theirs is their business, case closed'.

Not if they have it in their head to kill me for Allah...Then what they do, say or threaten becomes my business...Case to remain open...

If the Quran is easy to understand and 'clear', why do we need you, Reed or a knowlege of Arabic to understand it? I asked you this before, is my English Quran not enough to understand Islam? Is my English Quran missing something. or wrong in some way? How is it that so many people read Quran in Enflish, and nearly all of them miss the message? So is my English Quran the word of Allah, or not?
0
To Malem
written by lw1 , May 12, 2011
Perhaps you misunderstood.
The woman Bangladeshi PM having a co-PM of equal standing, not advisors and 40 other people in her cabinet.
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Duhh
written by Malem , May 12, 2011
The question was about how much time, and unless you are George Orwell, you cannot peer into peoplpes minds or control what they think. That is called free will, if you want to control that then you have to except that people will want to control yours as well. You have asked the same question over and over about the blessed Koran. As I said before it was written in Arabic (the original Arabic) as it was provided from Allah thru Gabriel to Muhammed pbuh. His language was Arabic, so that is why he didnt put it into Chines, German or any of the other languages. It is better to read the blessed Koran in Arabic to really understand it as there is a thing called lost in translation.

To Lw1, I didnt miss your point, my point was there are over 40 people helping her, she is not alone.
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Gabriel is a demon...MalMan
written by duh_swami , May 12, 2011
Then my English Quran is not the word of Allah, it loses something in translation, that means it is incomplete or lacking some how...HMM I wonder what Yusuf Ali and the others think of your insulting their abilities.....So only in Arabic can you get the 'fine points' that make up the real Islam...This means that my English Quran is a form of blasphemy, I always suspected that...It is printed and sold, and even given away, by Muslims who know or should know that it is a fraud, that should be blasphemy as well...I'm glad I don't have to answer to Allah for passing out fake Qurans...I suppose because they are fake, it's fine to burn them, or flush down a drain...
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Duuh
written by Malem , May 12, 2011
That is why you should attend a good Mosque to learn about the belssed Koran, much can be lost in translation. I do not know Mr Ali personaly so I would not know what his reaction would be or what he would think.
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MalMan
written by duh_swami , May 12, 2011
You should attend a Wiccan Ceremony sometime and learn what reality is really all about...If you like I can post some Wiccan web sites...

You still did not answer my question...Is my English Quran the word of Allah or not?
Why do I need to go to a mosque? Is the Imam going to answer my question because you can't? I already know that Islam is an evil system that only evil people and simpletons believe in...The next thing you will tell me that Mohammad really went on a night journey and met up with heavenly elitists...A better question is how can a demon, 'Gabriel', pass anything good from God to Mohammad? Demons flee from goodness, but Gabriel had no trouble hanging around with the evil minded Mohammad...When Gabriel spoke through Mohammad, nothing good came of it...
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Reed: 2.282
written by Rationalist , May 13, 2011
Reed, you are a funny person. You have said something like this in the past - "I think Allah says 1 male witness is equal to 2 female witnesses. I am not sure. I am not God to decide about it." Now you are twisting your tongue again.

Well, why can't the verse 2.282 be "... if there are no 2 female witnesses, bring 1 female witness and 2 male witnesses so that if one of the men err the other can remind him."? Why it is other way round?

Hey don't say "I am not Allah to author it." You are an escapist!
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To Malem
written by Archpagan , May 13, 2011
Dr Malem I got your point fully. You have every rights to cut you goat vertically along the spine. We shall not bother. But, don't blame the infidels for the mess ups you create on your own. The common refrain among Muslims is that non-Muslims are depriving the Muslims of their rightful place on earth. America and China are dictating world politics etc. If you voluntarily choose to remain under 7th century mindset, don't expect the benefits of 21th century and respect from us.
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Goat?
written by Malem , May 13, 2011
I dont eat Goat, sorry, you are welcome to eat that.
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To Malem
written by lw1 , May 13, 2011
The 40 advisors do not have the same standing as the PM. You are missing the point like you are missing it in 2.282.
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2.282 Abrogated
written by lw1 , May 13, 2011
2:282 O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among Christians, two witnesses. And if two Christians be not at hand, then a Christian and two Muslims, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be no averse to writing down (the contract) whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell to one another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things.
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MalMan
written by Duh_swami , May 13, 2011

I dont eat Goat...

You don't eat goat? Well what do you do with them then? Don't tell me I don't want to know...Are you a vegetarian? Does your diet consist of the basic Muslim diet of falafel pancakes for breakfast, falafel soup and falafel crackers for lunch and falafel burgers for dinner?

That is a very high vegetarian diet that most westerners could not stick with...The all falafel diet is hard for American Muslims to stick by because of hamburgers, hot dogs, and milk shakes...My own diet is even more refined, but I don't eat falafel...My diet is the highest spiritual diet possible...Cold potato's and fried ice, three times a day, a cup of bulgar mush on Sunday morning rounds out the week......Please don't try this yourself, it took me years of dietary deprivation to achieve this level of diet...But if you are a vegetarian that is a good sign, one of the very few...
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Duh
written by Rationalist , May 13, 2011
Good to know that u r a vegetarian. Me too! I cook great variety of Indian vegetarian dishes. I have not tasted meat in my life, but I am muscular n athletic.
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Rationalist
written by Duh_swami , May 13, 2011
I was just kidding about cold potato's and fried ice...But I am a vegetarian, vegan actually...Of long standing...I have eaten meat, but not in a long time, I don't miss it at all...I hardly ever get sick and can out wrestle any 96 year old man in our nursing home...I have a fondness for Indian vegi foods... I don't cook it but there is one Indian food place in town, it is called The Indian Oven...The food is great...I don't eat out often but when I do I go there...
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poor guy..
written by wazeen , May 13, 2011
i would like to qoute u a hadith which prophet peace be upon him said..that there will be a time when a person will go to bed as a believer(muslim) and will wake up as a disbeliever and a person will wake up in the morning as a believer and go to bed at night as a disbleiver..It is not a surprise at all for muslims neither it is a loss for Islam..The loss is totally yours my friend..I feel really sad that you chose to be one of the sign of the end of time..I pray to Allah to guide u to the right way..Amin
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Farhan is lying to Himself
written by Muslim , May 14, 2011
Farhan was the Right Path but Now he took his lies as truth I am feeling very sorry of Him. I feel that you lost reality and from now on you will become delusional. you had a good faith but from now on you will ive like an Animal.
Like the BIG animal Ali Sina. and Nonie Darwish and Sultan.

They told you lies and you missed GOD.
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Wazeen
written by Kafirwala , May 14, 2011
' there will be a time when a person will go to bed as a believer(muslim) and will wake up as a disbeliever and a person will wake up in the morning as a believer and go to bed at night as a disbleiver.'

Why Allah can't do anything about it? Like, all believers remain believers all the time. Once a person becomes a believer he should remain believer all throughout his life. Why Allah doesn't do that? For anything to happen, Allah simply say 'be it' and lo, it is perfectly as Allah willed it in front of all men to see. Allah asked his believers( muslims) to fight and make all people in the world muslims in the 7th century. More than 1350 years have passed since then. So far only 1/5 th of the total world population believe in Allah's chosen religion Islam. Why? I don't think it is lack of efforts on the part of muslims that Allah's favorite wish has not been fulfilled so far. Muslims have been trying always to fight the infidels and subjugate them and convert them to Islam from 7th century onwards. But the end result is not very encouraging. I think Allah is not very co- operative nowadays. For example, muslims have not won any war in the last two hundred years. Allah through Mohammed (PissBUH) promised that Allah will help muslims against the infidels in the battle fields. And see everywhere muslims are defeated now. Israel has decisively shown that they don't need enough people also to defeat numerically 10- fold strong Arab army! Remember Allah said it is the other way round during Mohammed's ( PissBUH) time! Where has this Allah gone? Is he not seeing all these things? Is he not hearing the prayers of muslims five times a day? Is this guy absconding? If he so willed, muslims can easily win over the lowly infidels anytime. At least he should have prevented people like Farhan Qureshi deserting his chosen religion!
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Muslim
written by Duh_swami , May 14, 2011
What lies did Sina, Darwish and Sultan tell?...No human can match the BIG liar Allah...There are a couple of quasi-Muslim posters who come close, but Allah goes unmatched...
0
To Duh_swami
written by lw1 , May 14, 2011
Good luck for you to get a reply from Muslim.
0
lw1
written by duh_swami , May 15, 2011
'Good luck for you to get a reply from Muslim'.

When we do get replies, they are either lies, distortions or obfuscation..

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Duh
written by Malem , May 15, 2011
No I am Vegan, have been all my life. As for your goat remark, that was funny and here I was all this time thinking you didnt have a sense of humor. Of course you know yourself sheep lie.
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Something new every day...
written by Duh_swami , May 15, 2011
Sheep lie Malman? I never had a sheep lie to me in my life, but that's probably because I don't read or understand Arabic...
I don't exploit animals at all, I don't wear leather, or furs, nor use any animal products...unless they are hidden and I'm not aware of it...I don't abuse them and I don't kill them...and I don't eat them...If' You are what you eat', means anything at all, those who eat dead animals are in a lot of trouble...
You get a swami thumbs up for your veganism, but unfortunately a thumbs down on your Islamism...
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 15, 2011
Rationalist. "Hey don't say "I am not Allah to author it." You are an escapist!

My reply is same. How can I reply the question for Allah? I answer from Quran.
0
...
written by Duh_swami , May 15, 2011
I answer from Quran.

That's why you are always wrong even when you are right...Jesus was right when he said, 'You can't get good fruit from a bad tree'...Quran is not the 'Tree of Life', it is the 'Tree of Rotten fruit'...All that comes from it is rotten and corrupt...
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Answering? to Reed Wilson
written by The Great BUana , May 15, 2011
You are not answering from the quran but you are hiding behind the quran. Thats why there is no use to discuss with people like you because you are not discussing. You only look into the quran for an answer that looks adequate without questioning it and by overlooking all the errors, contradictions and inconsistencies. Here we can watch and experience the ignorance and stupidity of many muslims who only use their brains by parroting what they can find in the quran. From an intellectual viewpoint this is real poverty and ignorance because muslims dont know and they do no want to learn to know true knowledge. They think it so much easier to memorise and to parrot the quran. Yes, it is easier but this has nothing to do with knowledge. There must be a reason why the islamic world is so behind and this reason is that they dont have other knowledge except islamic knowledge. Did you get it, Reed? Now you can try to find an answer in your beloved quran.
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...
written by Garden Variety Troll , May 15, 2011
Lost Sheep vs Dumb Sheep

There's a difference between the way Jesus spread the Word, and how Muhammad did it.

With Muhammad, it's all literal... as if he were preaching to dumb sheep.

Jesus (as well as Sidharta Gautama) on the other hand preached to people with the intent to move them to introspect, to find the truth. I'd rather be lost sheep than dumb sheep in my opinion.

The truth cannot be impressed on people - rote does not make truth, but discovery does.

Praying 5 times a day does not make an act holy, it numbs you. Stare at the sun too long and you go blind.




One apple does not equal two oranges.

I am neither divine nor holy, but my wit would have forced me to say that instead of producing two male witnesses or if only one male witness were to be found, two females in his stead so that one would remind the other of the truth...


... I would say instead that another male witness should be found with either his mother or his wife with him to remind him of the truth. It's a joke if none caught on, but seriously it defies common sense to dictate the number and gender of witnesses when any available should be used.

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Reed: 2.282
written by Rationalist , May 15, 2011
If u reply from Quran, why is Allah asking for an extra woman as witness. If he was just he could have said one man and one woman, and NOT one man n two women. Did u get it Old monk?
You cannot answer because it is beyond ur capacity as ur mind is programmed by Quran.
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Farhan
written by Skeptic , May 16, 2011
It is not always that a Muslim dares to renounce Islam publicly. The dangers are wellknown. It is heartening news because this is one more drop in a steady trickle. Soon there will be too many apostates than the faithful could handle (meaning harrass and preferrably execute). Yet another silver lining , friends!
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Duh
written by Malem , May 16, 2011
Vegan is the way to go in my view, so we at least agree on one thing! My feeling has always been and as I was taught, while God gave men control over the animals of the earth, he never said "now take a club, whack them in the head and eat them". A lot of health issues could be resolved if people stopped in carcasses. Plus in my experience there is a lot more variety in the vegan way of eating, much much variety.

But back to the Koran, Why does one have to declare publicly when he leaves a religion? Where is this rule? I think it is done to satisfy the ego of the persona nd the others who do not agree with whatever religion it is.
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Malem's dig!
written by Kafirwala , May 16, 2011
' Why does one have to declare publicly when he leaves a religion? Where is this rule?'

Normally, no one declares publicly when he leaves the cult of Islam, fearing requital.( Actually the death punishment practised by many muslim countries for apostasy is the sure sign to prove that Islam is a cult, not a religion). Here, Farhan Qureshi has declared his apostasy, because I think he has been in the forefront of Islam apologists and actively participating in many debates defending Islam and Quran so far and now that he has found out the truth, he acknowledges it publicly. That shows his integrity and sincerity. Naturally he is scared of muslim vengeance, but his integrity and sincerity apparently have emboldened him to overcome that fear and to declare his resolve to stand on the side of truth. He is a psychologist as well and I think Dr. Sina,s pscho- analysis of the charlatan prophet Mo must have impressed him. That is what I understand from his words showing his willingness to work with Dr. Sina in future. As a psychologist, I hope, he will explore further in that field and we will have more authentic materials from him on the subject.

If any celebrity leaves his native belief and converts to Islam, the hyperbolic ecstasy of muslims go beyond all limits! A few years back, a well known poetess, who is no more, announced her conversion to Islam in my state. The Islamic society and their publications were celebrating the event for months together! Remember the hype these people created on Yvonne Ridley's conversion to Islam! Do you believe that now Yvonne Ridley is the distinguished guest speaker in so many muslim conventions in my state?

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Malman
written by duh_swami , May 16, 2011
My feeling has always been and as I was taught, while God gave men control over the animals of the earth, he never said "now take a club, whack them in the head and eat them"

Two things, God did not give man control over the animals...You need weapons that man developed without God to do that...Try controlling a man eating tiger with your bare hands and you will see how much control you have...Secondly you are right, God never said hit them with clubs and eat them, because God never said anything...Not in the Quran and not in the Bible...But whoever said we have 'dominion' was wrong when he said it, and wrong now...Mans superiority over animals is evident in several ways, the ability to handle fire is one, and the ability to identify problems, and fix them is another...Animals can do that to a limited degree, but no where nearly as well as man...Yet as good at control as we are, after all these years, we still do not have dominion...

Meister Eckhardt a sixteen century mystic and priest said that 'God does not love creatures as creatures, he loves creatures as God'...If that is true, then many Christians and other seriously religious people are in error when they kill and eat, or abuse God's beloved, and then like true hypocrites, tell God how much they love him...
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Duh
written by Malem , May 16, 2011
Sure he did, thats why he gave us the intellect to develop what ever we needed to control them. Allah did say that, you were just not listening and too busy talking. A wise man once said "It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen". If you have ever read the great literary works of the last few hundred years you will know that one.

Are you saying Animals can start a fire? I knew the monkey I saw had matches, I bet he was going to have a fire, sit around with his friends and contemplate the universe and existentialism's impact on them....hahaha where do you come up with this stuff. You are definitely one of the funniest people on this blog. By the way are you able to talk with animals?

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Malem
written by Garden Variety Troll , May 16, 2011
But back to the Koran, Why does one have to declare publicly when he leaves a religion? Where is this rule?
And indeed, why does the shahada need to be publicly done? I believe that it is publicly done in imitation of the shahada, in this case it is to leave Islam altogether.
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Malman
written by Duh_swami , May 16, 2011
'Sure he did, thats why he gave us the intellect to develop what ever we needed to control them'...

Very few animals are 'controlled', but many are killed by the implements you mention...When 'God' gave man 'dominion' over the animals no weapons were yet invented to hunt or to kill them...Unless you count cave men who predate God, and who hunted with spears...Of course, they were hunting for food, not trying to establish 'dominion'...if you can control some animals some of the time, but not all animals all of the time, you do not have dominion or control...

I didn't say animals start fires, I said one of the differences between animals and man is that man can handle fire and animals can't...When was the last time you saw an animal pick up a hot coal with tongs, or put out a fire with a fire hose and some water...Animals run from fire, they do not handle it...Of course man can't handle some fires some of the time, but animals never can...And of course I talk with animals...You don't? Maybe you just don't like them much so you never strike up a conversation...Mohammad claimed he talked to animals, St Francis talked to animals...Maybe you are missing something if you don't...
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To Malem
written by lw1 , May 17, 2011
On 12/5/11 you wrote,entitled 'Ignorance is not bliss'
.......That beingsaid if you were being diagnosed for a disease, you would probably get two opinions from two experts, if only one expert was available you might take the opinion of 2 additional general practitioners.'
So here two GPs serve the purpose of one expert.
In 2.282 two women serve the purpose of one man.
According to Quran, women are inferior.
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Welcome to the New World
written by Simple_Logic , May 18, 2011

I don't know exactly what will happen to you in future except that you will not be burned in Allah's Hell


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lw1
written by Malem , May 18, 2011
I never said women were inferior, but it does sound that you could have some sort of inferior complex. You really should not think that way as it is not healthy at all. You should instead be proud of your role or career whatever it may be and strive to be the best you can. The PM still has many many peolpe under her, advising her, directing her and that is a fact. Read all of 2 not jsut 2.282 and you will get a much clearer picture on the meaning, if you would like someone to help you with that understanding I could surely recommend several soruces.
Peace
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To Malem
written by lw1 , May 18, 2011
You did not say that women are inferior according to Quran, I said it.
You say '...but it does sound that you could have some sort of inferior complex.'
There is no logical reason to come to that conclusion and that explains why you have to use twisted logic to explain Quran ( if that is the level of your understanding,) which is more than 60% threats and hatred -- and that has led to most bloodshed for 1400 years.
You are ignoring women's rights in most Muslim and even some non-muslim countries.
2.282. It is not a straight replacement of one woman for one man ---two women have the same value as witness as one man --- so women are inferior in Quran and in most Muslim and some non-muslim countries.
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Malman
written by Duh_swami , May 18, 2011
Your sources are every bit as self serving and misleading as you are...You can't even answer a straight forward question...I have asked you a number of questions and you have answered few to none of them...
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Abed or Apostasy?
written by lw1 , May 19, 2011
If you are 'black', why are you a Muslim? Even now, the term of abuse by Arabs (first class Muslims) for a 'black' person is SLAVE -(Abed).
So if you are 'black' why are you a Muslim?
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lw1
written by Malem , May 19, 2011
Lw1 - I do not see why you think women are inferior, I think the opposite and they should be regarded highly as is done the the Koran.
Because one has dark skin does that mean they are "black", the term is a bit foreign to me. There were many kinds of slaves throughout time, that were of different colors and religious beliefs. If you think that one religion or people own the slavery story, you are sadly mistaken and need to go back and study history.
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To Malem
written by lw1 , May 19, 2011
Do you approve of Arabs calling 'black' people slaves?

Quran does not regard women highly.

Why do you still ignore the plight of women because of belief in Islam by men?

2.282. One male witness replaced by TWO women witnesses, so acoording to Quran women are inferior.
0
Good women are obedient! --Quran 4.34
written by lw1 , May 19, 2011
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Scourge.
1. person who harrasses or causes destruction
2. means of inflicting punishment or suffering
3. A whip used for inflicting punishment or torture
4. to whip
5. to punish severely
If you are a woman and a Muslim, why are you a Muslim?
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Malem
written by Kafirwala , May 19, 2011

Of course slavery was not the exclusive domain of muslims and people of different religious beliefs practised it in the past. But the point is, with advancement of civilisation, people have abandoned it all over the world, except the wretched muslims who still practise it in some muslim countries like Sudan, Somalia etc. According to some, even in Saudi Arabia it is practised on the sly. The reason for continuation of this extreme inhuman practice is its quranic sanction. Allah had permitted this practice and the prophet Mo (PissBUH) was an active trader of slaves in his lifetime. The most heinous crime Allah did is perhaps the quranic sanction for slavery which culminated in its perpetuation. That is why these muslim rascals whose mindset is trapped in the 7th century are still practising it without remorse! Don't try to say that slavery was a popular practice of that time and Allah really wanted to stop it gradually. If he so wanted, Allah could have stopped this obnoxious practice for good like he stopped the other minor vices like drinking, smoking and the gambling. The fact is that he did not want to stop this practice. And shame on him, he rather perpetuated it. Another interesting thing is that he did prohibit drinking and sodomy, but these are available in his paradise in plenty! Mr. Malem, you have to really perspire to explain all these vagaries of Allah!
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Duh Duh
written by Malem , May 20, 2011
I ahve addressed every question you have barked out, of not please ask again. I like the way you at random you just say "you didnt answer my question" without saying what it was, very immature but also comical.
Lw1 - These "Arabs" you mention that call supposed "black" people slaves, that is an absolute racist remark. I know and live with many Arabs and by the way you do realize that many are African right? or did you miss that fact at your rally? Saying things like that just demean your enitre discussion. Just like when you say that women are inferior, why would you say such hateful things against women.
0
Malman
written by Duh_swami , May 20, 2011
The last question you ignored was...What is in the Arabic version of Quran 5:33 that is different than my English translation? Does amputation and crucifixion in English mean something different in Arabic? If so, what? You claim I must know Arabic to get the truth, so I am asking again, is my English translation of 5:33 wrong? If so, please explain how...
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To Malem
written by lw1 , May 20, 2011
Calling 'black' people slaves is racist.
Women should have equal rights, Islam does not give them equal rights.
You can ignore the real world and keep on trying to explain Quran to people who have rejected it.
Do you try to explain Quran (as you understand it,which is different to our understanding of it) to people who say they are Muslims, even though you disqualify them?
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Duh
written by Malem , May 20, 2011
Question 1 : The precision of the Arabic version is well known, when you interpret there is error in that
Question 2 : I think you mean does the blessed Koran say to crucify or amputation, I would need a verse to answer that
Question 3 : Yes there are many errors because of the translation, you should have got an arabic one

lw1 - You are correct and I am happy to see that you posted that type of remark, honesty is the best policy when you make a mistake. Women have their rights in Islam and men have their rights so what is the problem? You are mot Muslim so whya re you concerned
0
To Malem
written by lw1 , May 20, 2011
I have not made a mistake.
Calling 'black' people slaves is racist and that is why I said that when Arabs call 'black' people slaves, that is intolerable and they should leave Islam, religion originating in Arabia. Arabs also captured ancestors of 'black' people in millions,raped their women, took many as slaves to Arabia,where men were castrated so that they do not pollute pure Arab blood. Even now Arabs keep 'black' slaves. Arabs in Britain have been convicted of treating their maids as slaves--these are only the cases where the maids could escape and a case could be brought against cruel Arabs.
Islam does not give equal rights to women, they are inferior in Islam.
0
Malman...quit ducking, answer the question...
written by Duh_swami , May 20, 2011
Question 2 : I think you mean does the blessed Koran say to crucify or amputation, I would need a verse to answer that

You phony, I gave you the verse 5:33...maybe your reading comprehension is shot...

Question 3 : Yes there are many errors because of the translation, you should have got an arabic one

I told you this before, but I guess your memory is shot as well...My English Quran tells me all I need to know...I rely on the authentic translators accepted by most everyone to give me accurate translations...They were well versed in Arabic...So I will believe them way before I believe an amateur like yourself...
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MALMAN
written by Duh_swami , May 20, 2011
Calling 'black' people slaves is racist and that is why I said that when Arabs call 'black' people slaves, that is intolerable and they should leave Islam...

Why, so they can be killed as apostates...Gee thanks a lot...

Mohammad called blacks raisin heads and he had black slaves so I suppose Mohammad was a racist... the term "abeed al-beit," which means "house slaves." sometimes referred to as as "house negroes." Many Muslims call blacks abeed a racist term,...but I bet you already know that...
0
...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 21, 2011
Duhswami. You write "Mohammad called blacks raisin heads and he had black slaves so I suppose Mohammad was a racist... the term "abeed al-beit," which means "house slaves." sometimes referred to as as "house negroes." Many Muslims call blacks abeed a racist term,...but I bet you already know that..."

May I dare ask you for the source Sir?
0
Reed the evader
written by duh_swami , May 21, 2011
You already know Mohammad stories come from hadith, so why do you ask...The rest is Arabic translations from Arabic translators...

And why would Mohammad not be a racist...after Allah is a racist...He obviously is favoring Arabs...He is an Arab god, the religion was born in Arabia, Arabians were the first Muslims of Islam, the 'real' Quran is written in Arabic for Arabs...Allah hangs out with Arab Muslims, and did all kinds of favors for Mohammad...Mohammad also said that Arabs were the best of people, with the best look,s and the best hair...It's true that Islam claims equality of Muslims in Allah, but in reality some Muslims are just a little more equal than others...On the racist level, Islam is a vehicle for Arab supremacy...The none Arab Muslims are not quite that supreme...
0
...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 21, 2011
duh_swami. You already know Mohammad stories come from hadith, so why do you ask?

Hadis doesnt deserve to be quoted as source by a person of your scholarly stature.

"The rest is Arabic translations from Arabic translators".

Rest!!! "Arabic translations from Arabic translators".

I am very sorry duh for my poor understanding. I dont know this source.
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Reed the unknower...
written by Duh_swami , May 21, 2011

'I am very sorry duh for my poor understanding. I dont know this source'.


Well then use one of your fine Arabic dictionaries..."abeed al-beit"...

'Hadis doesnt deserve to be quoted as source by a person of your scholarly stature'

Yes it does everyone loves hadith, well almost everyone....I don't think I will let you set the rules for posting hadith...
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Reed the unknower -- some back-ups
written by Archpagan , May 21, 2011
Islam was founded in order to give the Arabs some legitimacy to carry on their profession of looting and plundering other people. In the medieval era, pilgrims were thrilled by being looted and the women getting raped by Meccans. It is the philosophy of the criminals to say that Arab God Allah who knows Arabic only is the only God to be worshiped. In this way the Arabs subjugated other people and co- opted them into their fraternity by converting them as Muslim, so that, more and more new land could be captured and looted. Such a bizarre ideology should not have any place in the civilized world.

In later days, Communism the 'philosophy of the wicked' was formulated on the same line. It acted on the principle that the rich has become rich by exploiting others. So, it is fine to deprive the rich of their wealth. According to Islam, people who do not accept Allah as only God are fit to be killed and robbed. So, their is an uncanny similarity between Islam and Communism, only difference being the former does it in the name of Allah, but the latter in the name 'liberation'.
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Malman is hiding...
written by Duh_swami , May 22, 2011
I'm still waiting for Malman to answer me about Arabic and Quran 5:33...He says he answers all questions, so Malman where is the answer?
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where is the like button?
written by Paul , May 22, 2011
Congratulations on your awakening. Now we just have to educated the other couple billion theists out there.
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where is the like button?
written by Paul , May 22, 2011
speaking of educated... I have a degree in engineering, which exempts me from any moral liability due to typos.
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Duh_swamy
written by Kafirwala , May 23, 2011

Don't wait for Malman. He is a real muslim. These muslim zombies know only to hit and run. When you give a reply to their lofty claims about Allah or Mo (Piss BUH) or Quran or when you question their rationale, you will not see these rascals again. They will be running away at their maximum speed. Anyway in this site, I think Reed Wilson is the only muslim who will not skulk like that. It is because of two reasons. One is that he is not a born- muslim and therefore I suppose he must not have attended any madrassa classes. Second is his greatest asset and attribute viz. thickness of skin. People say politicians are the normal ones who excel in this category. But I think, any politician of any country, however famous or popular he may be, will not come any where near our Reed in this respect. Even hippopotamus will run away in shame in front of him!
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Kafirwala
written by Duh_swami , May 23, 2011
Malman puts on a false front, claiming he answers questions when actually he runs from them...Reed usually gives faulty answers, but at least he gives them...My biggest problem with Reed is that he gives the evil verses in Quran the same credibility he gives non evil verses...That puts him in the position of supporting evil...
I'm not sure why he want's to be in that position, but he fights tooth and nail to maintain it...
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Duh
written by Malem , May 23, 2011
Duh unlike yourself who probably is able to sit at an internet cafe or your parents home all day on the computer, I have a responsible profession that requires my attention. To your various statements, please note I am from africa originally and pretty dark, the Koran nor my muslim friends have ever referred to me as "raisin head" that does not exist in the blessed Koran and you should try and refrain from making up these things.

Regarding your obsession with 5:33, I would recommend and I know this hard for you, to read the entire Surah and stop plucking words out of it to satisfy your hatred. If you can read the entire Surah you will see that the punishements outlined are for crimes that are ongoing violence against the people and in modern terms would be labelled ter.rorism Now seeing that you were overjoyed at the taking out of Osama, I think you would agree that if one behaves in that fashion their punishment needs to be of equal power. In addition 5:32 clearly states that there is a prohibition on taking of innocent lives, period and in 5;34 it clearly says you are commanded to forgive. So basically 5:33 is an outline that when violent crimes are committed there will be punishment for such crimes. This is very much like the laws of the western world where you have life sentences, death sentences and permanent imprisonment.
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Malman...You still don't answer...but you obfuscate a lot..
written by duh_swami , May 23, 2011
You continue to run from questions Malem...5:32 was talking to the Jews...and everyone knows only Muslims are 'innocent'...There certainly a lot of Muslims running around 'taking innocent' lives...You defend that do you? I didn't say the Quran used the description Raisin head,' I said Mohammad said it...It's in Hadith, look it up...If you have 'professional' duties that require your attention, what are you doing here posting nonsense to me?

The only thing anyone needs to understand about 5:33 is that it is evil, it's punishments are Satanic...And that's only one example of your 'holy' book that oozes evil...
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Malman the Obfuscater
written by duh_swami , May 23, 2011
By the way Malman, I can stay on the computer all day and night, if I want, because I am my own master and I set the rules for my life...and I don't need evil man made scriptures to do it...The reason I can do that and you can't is because, I am duh swami and your not...While you sweat and strain, I compose...It's a tough life but someone has to do it...
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Duh
written by Malem , May 23, 2011
My non working lad I did answer your questions, the Surah 5 (all of it) including the section 530-534 is talking about punishing criminals, you are again telling falshoods when you say it says it to "Jews". Site the exact verse in 5:33 that says Jews. Can you? No because you are making things up that sound good to you only and are out of your league young lad.

Regarding Hadith, that is man made not Koran it has no place in Islam according to the Koran itself, but you already knew that didnt you my little friend.

As for people that kill innocent people, it is clear of the position in the Koran it is not allowed. You do it, well looks like you are not practicing Muslim.

Punishments are a way of life, while some immature people want to do whatever they want no matter the effect on others, they need to know when you break the law there is consequences. I know you probably would rather not face them, that is what adults do, they own up to their err's.

If you call your writings compositions, you must also take grammar lessons from your dog. very repetitive truculent dribble I'd say. You should spend more time reading books versus sitting on them, it helps a mind grow. Try just sitting once, and read the entire Koran 5 from beginning to end, then you will be worthy of formulating an opinion. Right now you are very much like the man who wakes up each morning to hear the drops of rain only to go back to sleep to wake up the next day and do the same, all the while never knowing he left his shower dripping. Look more into things, they many times are not what they appear.

So I have answered you little question on 5:33 would you like to ask a better question

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Malman the jail house lawyer
written by Duh_swami , May 23, 2011
I can tell that law is not your profession...You made several statements that I needed to know Arabic to properly understand Quran...I asked you if the words 'amputation' and 'crucifixion' mean something different in Arabic than English, and if so how?...You have ignored that question several times, and I bet you will ignore or dance around it again...The rest of your post is irrelevant drivel...Will you run away again or are you going to answer?
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Duh
written by Malem , May 24, 2011
I am not sure what the term Jailhouse Lawyer means, but I will try and watch Popeye cartoons and glean some insight from it. You are back to name calling again and that dissapoints me greatly as I thought you were starting to mature from boyhood to manhood. Those words you mention are in the Koran as a form of punishment for those who kill innocent people (I believe in the west you would call it the death penalty). My opinion would be to avoid committing such crimes and you avoid the penalty lad. If you read a little more, and I understand it is tough to fit that in between watching cartoons and talking to your dog, you will see 5:39 that explains how one can repent for crimes committed. That would be akin to plea bargaining in the western world. If you even read further, again tought for you to do but try it, you will see how you can make amends for certain missgivens by assisting the poor and hungry. Now that is a fairly noble action whereas I am able to make expiation for errs in my ways. No dancing here, just answers.
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Malman
written by Duh_swami , May 24, 2011
All that drivel and you still did not answer my question..5:33 does not say it is a penalty for killing innocent people, it is penalty for 'warring with Allah, and spreading mischief and corruption...

You said I can't understand the Quran without help from the Arabic...I asked you to prove that using 5:33 as example...Since you refuse to answer that question, I consider that you defeated yourself...It is obvious that there is no understanding lost in my English Quran...The translators did a fine job of translating...

The questions I asked the other guy on another thread are these...

1. Exactly what does 'Warring with Allah', mean?
2.Who is doing that?
3.What exactly is the nature of the mischief and spreading corruption?
4.Who is doing that?

You failed the test on Arabic necessity, lets see how you explain those questions...
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Malman
written by Duh_swami , May 24, 2011
Jail house lawyer is not a name, it is a title...It is reserved for those who talk law but actually know little about it...Jails and prisons are full of these people...They too claim to be 'innocent'...You are an enigma, you talk sharia while at the same time you reject sharia...That must hurt a lot...
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Duh Duh
written by Malem , May 24, 2011
1. You misquoted lad, it is 5:33 the english version you are reading says " The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." Overall it means dont do the crime if you cant do the time (That is a western phrase I have heard before). it nevers says War WITH Allah, please have someone read this to you so you can get a good grasp on it.

2. Anyone could be committing crimes, that is why there is a description on what not to do and what the punishment is. I bet your dog knows but he is not telling you.

3. You dont know what corruption and mischief is? Im sorry I cannot go back to Elementary teaching to explain such a a basic term. I would check with your mommy or daddy, or maybe watch and educational cartoon versus Popeye.

4. See answer to 2.

My Arabic is years beyond what you could even begin to know. I do not talk Sharia as it does not exist, thus you cannot speak something that does not exist. A little to existentialist for you probably but I figured your dog would get a laugh out of it.
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You are dancing on hot coals Malman....Taqiyya sunshine...
written by Duh_swami , May 24, 2011
''' it nevers says War WITH Allah, please have someone read this to you so you can get a good grasp on it''

'Another blatant lie.... All of them say warring with Allah including the one you quoted...


005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who 'wage war against Allah' and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make 'war upon Allah' and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who 'wage war against Allah' and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

You lie and attempt to evade at every turn, you are more intellectuality dishonest that Reed...You talk in vague generalities and don't answer pointed questions...Go back to sleep Malem...I don't need you for anything, you are dismissed...
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Duh
written by Malem , May 25, 2011
No it does not Duh, you need help reading it says "War AGAINST Allah" not WITH. "With" would mean somehow you are committing crimes along side of Allah, that is just stupid. So while you sit and yell Liar Liar, it is actually you that is wrong, again stop letting your dog read for you. Even the verses you list ALL say AGAINST, not With. Are you really that blind to see that?

So in this case you are the liar and anyone that can read your post will see you were wrong. I expect most adults who understand english also know there is a drastic difference between AGAINST and WITH. GO back to grade school and then come back to this blog, then you may ask another question lad.
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embryology
written by amer , May 25, 2011
can mr. sina let me know whose claim is right "http://www.islamicmedicine.org/embryoengtext.htm"

or the one found on your site
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To Duh_swami
written by lw1 , May 25, 2011
5.32 is talking about Jews.
5.33 does not mention anyone else, e.g Christians, so logically it is about Jews.
Quran is not a clear book as claimed by many Muslims.
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Duh
written by Malem , May 25, 2011
Still cant admit you were wrong eh? That is quite childish. You make a claim, which is false, then call me a liar, which was false. You get caught and you run, very amusing but also telling. You are ASSUMING 5.33 is talking about Jews and you know what happens when you assume dont you lad. The blessed Koran is clear, you just need to take off the predjudice glasses you wear. I would suggest less time watching cartoons, surfing the web and talking to your dog and spend more time reading books (the things at the library) and studying.
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Duh
written by Malem , May 26, 2011
You assume that 5.33 is talking about them, you have not factual data though, so you are just making things up like a cartoon it is not real. The Koran is clear if you can read and understand it, which you obviously do not.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 26, 2011
IW1. Christians and Jews are not making mischief in land. 5:33 is not about people of any religion. It my be about Adolf Hitler. About Harry S Truman. About Mussolini and Mao. It is about about all such who imbalance the nature and ecosystem.

Allah knows them all. You would also know them one day or the other.

Duhswami. Till recently you asking who are they. Now you come with the translations for answering who are they. Dont you know what fighting god means? God has given law. All those rebellions like Pharaoh are those fighting god and his message.

You will soon know. If you die tomorrow, you will know tomorrow. Living, you could know but you shut your eyes and stuffed your ears to the truth.
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5.33 and Real World
written by lw1 , May 27, 2011
In 5.33' Christians and Jews are not making mischief in land' - Quran is not clear as many previous verses are about Jews. Confusing Quran is responsible for the most bloodshed in the world.

In the real world today Muslims are making a lot of mischief and most Muslims want to ignore it or make excuses.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 27, 2011
IW1. "In the real world today Muslims are making a lot of mischief and most Muslims want to ignore it or make excuses".

I dont think they are muslims. Hitler, Trumen, Mussolini, Mao, Bush etc are obviously not muslim names.

Muslim or non Muslim, if he does mischief, the God knows fully well. He will be punished. So do not worry.
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Double triple talk...
written by Duh_swami , May 27, 2011
No matter how you rationalize it, Quran 5:33 is evil...Amputation ans crucifixions are considered cruel and unusual punishment and are not allowed in America or any other civilized country...
That Reed and Malman supports this evil tells a lot about them...
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Duha
written by Malem , May 28, 2011
"...cruel and unusual punishment and are not allowed in America or any other civilized country."

Good point so that means you support putting people in gas chambers to choke, suffocate and ie, or electrocute them into painful convulsions and die or maybe injecting highly poisonous liquids into their veins to die...mmm ALL those are used in the West today and you say those are not cruel or unusual!! Wow I wonder what the Usual state is in your world, popeye.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 28, 2011
Dyh swami. you wrote ".Amputation ans crucifixions are considered cruel and unusual punishment and are not allowed in America or any other civilized country.|.

This is how you see it. Keeping people in prisons for ages is more cruel and obnoxious fro me.
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To Malman and your uncle Reed...
written by Duh_swami , May 28, 2011
Lame rationalizations...I oppose the death penalty and Satanic punishments no matter where they come from...Your stupid moral equivalences change nothing about the evils of Islam...The more you guys thrash around looking for excuses, the deeper your hole gets...Both of you are guilty of obfuscation and lies to protect your indefensible book and the evil that oozes from it...You two are fools of the highest order...
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 29, 2011
Mr. Kafirwala.“Reed in this respect. Even hippopotamus will run away in shame in front of him!

Thickness of skin may be the greatest asset and attribute but is not subject to test on this site. He gives the Quranic views which you don’t agree. Reed has no stakes.

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...
written by Reed Wilson. , May 29, 2011
Duh_swami."Well then use one of your fine Arabic dictionaries..."abeed al-beit"...

Where in Quran?Please help me.
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To Reed Wilson
written by lw1 , May 31, 2011
You say ' I don't think they are Muslims'

Out of about 1.5 billion Muslims you will disqualify most of them if they believe in Hadith or sects. That won't stop atrocities by what most people, including Muslims, understand to be Muslims. I do not believe you when you say that they are not Muslims.

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We do not believe in Quran
written by lw1 , May 31, 2011
I believe Mohammad is the author of Quran for his personal gain --it is not divine with all the threats and hatred.

If anybody believes that Quran is divine then explain it to people who say they are Muslims who are committing atrocities or keep quiet when they see atrocities by Muslims.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , June 01, 2011
IW1. "Out of about 1.5 billion Muslims you will disqualify most of them if they believe in Hadith or sects. That won't stop atrocities by what most people, including Muslims, understand to be Muslims. I do not believe you when you say that they are not Muslims".

Hadith followers are Muslims but not muslims. Were they believing Quran, they wouldn't believe Hadis.

Quran claims that it ONLY should be followed. Following Quran is folllowing Allah. Quran is the message of God.
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...
written by Reed Wilson. , June 01, 2011
IW1. "That won't stop atrocities by what most people, including Muslims, understand to be Muslims".

The history of atrocities, in one form other, is there since very long. We see atrocities on Jesus Christ in the Gospel. This is not the place to list them and the list is very long. It will not need tremendous research also.

The Irish Republican Army, which was considered to be terrorist group, has a history of 100 years of violence against the British, but the British government doesn't seem to be scared about them as they are about radical Islamic groups. This is one example.

There are innumerable well known terrorist group and they are not so called Muslim Groups.

The so called Muslims are new comers in the trade of terror, as there is money in it. It is all commercial and exploitative. No religion encourages terrorist acts or violence.

The crimes against humanity are condemnable, irrespective of who is committing them.

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لَا تُفْسِدُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ أَلَا إِنَّهُمْ هُمُ الْمُفْسِدُونَ وَلَـٰكِن لَّا يَشْعُرُونَ

"And when it is said to them, “Do not cause turmoil in the earth”, they say, “We are only peacemakers!” Pay heed! It is they who are mischievous, but they do not understand". (2:11-12)

I appreciate your concern over atrocities.

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...
written by Reed Wilson. , June 06, 2011
Duh swami. Abd al Bait is not in Quran. Its translation at best can be domestic servant because 'domestic slave' or 'outdoor slave' are no designations and is meaningless/nonsense.

You avoided giving source. You could safely say hadis but you were shy of saying that by yourself.

I enjoyed the beauty of your post. You are not vulgar.

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