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Taqiyyah: The Islamic Principle of Holy Deception

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To explain the Arabic word TAQIYAH, Hughes Dictionary of Islam says, “Literally it means “Guarding oneself”. (It’s a) Shi’ah doctrine. A pious fraud whereby a Shi’ah Muslim believes he is justified in either smoothing down or in denying the peculiarities of his religious belief, in order to save himself from religious persecutions. A Shi’ah can, therefore, pass himself off as a Sunni to escape persecution.”


“The Shi’ah traditionalists relate that certain persons inquired of the Imam Sadiq if the Prophet had ever practiced taqiyyah or “religious dissimulations”, and the  Imam replied:”Not after this verse was sent down to the Prophet, namely Surah v71: ‘O thou Apostle! Publish the whole of what has been revealed to those from thy Lord; if thou do it not, thou, thou hast not preached His message, and God will not defend thee from the wicked men; for God guides not the unbelieving people. When the Most High became surety for the Prophet against harm, then he no longerdissimulated, although before this revelation appeared he had occasionally done so.”[1]

Commenting on the Islamic practice of taqiyyah, noted scholar Babu Susilan writes: “Under the Islamic concept of Al-Takkeya, it is legitimate for Muslims to lie, cheat, murder, deceive and violate non-Muslims. According to Takkeya, Muslims are sanctioned to communicate with fake sincerity. In reality, they may have just the opposite agenda in their hearts. It is clear that Islam permits the Muslims to lie anytime, anywhere to promote the cause of Islam."

To narrate how a law-abiding non-Muslim society is harmed by this dirty concept of Islamic taqiyyay, he writes, “The concept of Al-Takeyya (lying) for the cause of Islam bears gross implications for freedom loving, law abiding non-Muslims. Muslims can negate any agreement, cheat, deceive, lie, and absolve from any permanent commitment. When a Muslim says "Islam is peace", watch out. When a Muslim shout "Allah loves you", he mean "Allah hates you" unless you are a Muslim.”

He adds: "There are many incidences in the life of Mohammed where he often lied and instructed his followers to do the same. A good example is the assassination of Kaab Ibn Ashrf, a member of the Jewish tribe, Banu al-Nudair. Mohammed ordered his assassination by deception, lying and tricks. Mohammed also ordered the murder of Shaalan by deception and lying. Islamic history is replete with incidents of murder and assassination by deception”.[2]

In his article, The principle of Al-Takeyya, the author says, “The Arabic word, “Takeyya”, means “to prevent,” or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one’s self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. Islamic scholars believe that Muslims can even deny the faith publicly, declaring them non-Muslims, for saving their lives, if they do not mean it in their hearts, following the Quranic verse (3:28):

“Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.). But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah."

So, in simple words, taqiyyah is an example of Islamic style of deception, originated in the Koran, which Muslims profusely use to deceive and fool the non-Muslims. This manifests to what degree, Islam permits a Muslim to indulge in lying and cheating the infidels.

Two Faces of Koran

It is now well-known that the Muslims play many tricks and tell even dark lies to deceive and fool the infidels, such as they say that Islam means peace, kafir means an atheist, jihad means war between good and evil forces inside a man and so on. They also deceive the kafirs in another ingenious way. There are some verses of Koran, which, on the surface, appear to be tolerant and innocent. For example:

  1. “Allah does not love the oppressors” (3.140),
  2. “Allah has prepared painful punishments for the oppressors” (14.22),
  3. “Allah does not love them who creates indiscipline” (5.64),
  4. “Allah does not like jealousy and aggressiveness” (57.23),
  5. “Allah loves patience and forgiveness” (42.43),
  6. Your religion (is dear) to you and my religion (is dear) to me” (109.6),
  7. “The Prophet has no other duty but to propagate the message of Allah” (5.99) and so on and so forth.

When these verses are uttered before the infidels, many of them, out of ignorance, think and admit that the Koran has a tolerant, humane and innocent message. In this context, it is very important to mention that before a non-Muslim audience, the Muslim speakers make frequent use of the verse “Your religion to you and my religion to me”, to pretend that, Islam is basically a very tolerant religion.

The Koran contains over 6 thousands verses (ayahs) divided into 114 chapters (suras). All these verses of the Koran can be broadly divided into two categories: 1) Makki verses, and 2) Madini verses. The early verses revealed to Muhammad when he was staying at Mecca, are called Makki verses; those, revealed after his migration to Medina, are called Madini verses. Before his migration (hijrat) to Medina, the Prophet was a humble servant of Allah and a good husband of his only wife Khadija, without enjoying any economic, political or military power. And Allah, in consonance with the situation, revealed tolerant and innocent verses alone.

But after his migration to Medina, the Prophet became the administrator, the chief of the army and the judiciary of Medina. In other words, he became the sole and supreme dictator of Medina. After acquiring so much of power, the idea of spreading Islam by the sword came to his mind, and he invented the doctrine of jihad. It may be recalled that so long the Prophet was in Mecca, Allah forbade war for the Muslims. But after the hijrat, Allah could make the right sense of Muhammad's might and, duly, made fighting obligatory for every able Muslim. From that time on, Allah began revealing violent verses of jihad, such as “There is nothing in the sight of Allah which may be equated to jihad.” (9.19) and “No equal are those believers who sit at home (except those who are old and disabled) and those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in the cause of Allah” (4.95). “That is because they (who sit back at home) suffer neither thirst, nor fatigue, nor hunger in the cause of Allah. …Nor they raise the anger of the disbelievers or inflict any injury (killing, robbing or taking captive) upon enemy” (9.20). “Anyone whose feet get covered with dust in Allah’s cause will be forbidden from the hell-fire” (Bukhari 4.66).

Allah rebuked those, who sit back at home for their cowardice, and threatened them with cruel punishments, as the Koran says: “If you march not forth (for jihad), I will punish you with painful torment and will replace you with other people” (9.39). It is needless to say that these verses of violence and bloodshed have inspired Muslims, from the days of Muhammad itself, to massacre the kafirs en masse by launching jihad against them with the final goal of establishing an empire of Islam over the whole world. It should also be noted here that, this change of modus operandi of Muhammad/Allah for the spread of Islam officialized the Islamic principle of taqiyyah and has been in force ever since.

Taqiyyah to convert the infidels of Medina

After migrating to Medina, Muhammad/Allah initially held back from revealing the Madini verses or kept them concealed amongst his Meccan disciples and used the Makki verses to attract the infidels of Medina to Islam. But as soon as the Muslim population grew into a sizable amount and Muhammad could form a criminal gang with his uncle Hamza, his cousins and other loyal Muslim hooligans, the Makki verses were thrown out and the newly-revealed Madini verses were used to inspire his gang to engage in violence and terror. Especially after the victory in the Battle of Badr, Muhammad started to convert the infidels of Medina by threat and violence.

With Allah's reveled verses to strike terror into the hearts of the infidels, Muhammad, in compliance, assassinated poets Kaab bin Asraf, poet Abu Afak and poetess Asma, drove the Jews of Beni Kanuika and massacred 800 Jews of Beni Koraiza. So, taqiyyah, or deceiving the infidels, with the Makki verses of the Koran for conversion, lost its importance and jihad or violence came to the fore.

But the practice of taqiyyah in still alive and the Muslims are playing the same trick even today. Whenever the Muslim preachers talk about Islam in a civilized forum, they, to hide the bloody face of Islam, always utter the Makki verses of the Koran, knowing full well that most of those Makki verses were abrogated (elnasekh wal mansoukh, i.e. cancelled and replaced) by violent and bloody passages that were revealed after Muhammad’s migration to Medina.

In this context, it should be pointed out here that, after the September 11 attacks, many television channels broadcast interviews with Muslim reporters, intellectuals and religious leaders and the people of the print-media. In all such cases, to fool the kafirs, Muslim journalists, clerics and political leaders quoted Makki verses alone from the Koran, especially the verse "Your religion to you and my religion to me." (109:6)

In a country where Muslims are still a minority, they always make use of the Makki verses, but as soon as they gain majority or become strong in muscle power, they turn to the Madini verses for launching a jihad. For example, in India, when the Muslims come to Hindu populated areas, they never utter a Madini verse. But the same Muslims in their Muslim-dominated areas propagate Madini verses from mosques with loud-speakers to scare away the minority Hindus of that locality. Thus, under unfavorable situations, Muslims make use of the principle taqiyyah by projecting the Makki verses and keeping bloody weapons concealed; and in a favourable situation, they switch over to the Madani verses and unsheathe swords.

Origin of Taqiyyah

In order to understand the Islamic mind and the policy of taqiyyah, one has to understand the preliminaries of the Arab Bedouin Tribal culture in which Islam was born.  Starting his prophetic career in a culture based upon tribalism and the hard nomadic values of tribal warfare, Muhammad started raiding neighbouring non-Muslim communities, taking over their women and children as slaves and concubines, their possessions, their stock and their grazing lands, and killing their men with the exception of those, who would accept Islam.

The Arabs, mainly illiterate but cunning, were also extremely proud and arrogant, especially the men. The masculine Arab culture placed a very high value on ‘honour and shame’ associated with his place in the social order of his family, his tribal group, or his society. It was extremely important that he must not suffer ‘a loss of face’. The importance of honour and status is so important that it often justified ‘honour killings’ within the family, a tradition which Islamic societies still nurture and value. Blood feuds and vendettas were, and still are, maintained for generations to defend the honour of long-dead ancestors. Mohammed himself ordered the vengeful murder of all those who mocked or satirized him, as he was an Arab and the potential loss of face was unacceptable.

“Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honour and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wit and cunning for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honour on their own account and vice versa for the opponents. If honour so demands it, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.”[3]

Thus, by skilful manipulations, dissimulation, deceiving, lying, confounding or deflection of accusations, it is possible to foil or block or fend off an attack or accusation, and thus turn a humiliation into a positive outcome and the save one’s face or life. This same skill, then a part of the tribal Bedouin Arab life, has been adopted into the Islamic way of life in the defence and protection of Islam. This skill is known as ‘Taqiyya’ and greatly enhances the capabilities of Muslims to defend and promote Islam. This skill, Taqiyya, comes so naturally to Muslims that they are not even aware that they are using it to communicate dissimulate Islamic information to the less informed. It is a part of their way of life since childhood. This trait can also be observed in many other cultures especially in the East.

To give a few examples of Taqiyya as an illustration, Muslims will deny that “terrorist suicide bombers killed innocent people” were Muslims who were responsible for the 9/11 attacks on the twin towers in New York. And they are right because Muslims do not approve of Suicide (Haram), so they could not have been Muslims) and wanton murder of innocent people (but Muslims do not consider non-Muslims as innocent. They are the enemy and so are legitimate targets.). So Muslims may safely say that they condemn any terrorist acts, because terrorists are not identifiable as Muslims. But Muslims knew that these were acts of Islamic Jihad, and thus were truthful in denying it was “an act of terrorism” by Muslims, because they were actually “acts of martyrdom” or Jihad not “terrorism.” (ref. 3)


[1] T P Hughes, The Dictionary of Islam, Rupa & Co., 2007

[2] TAKIYAH Islamic Concept of al Takkeya By Babu Suselan (2 Feb. 2009)

[3] http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm

Comments (118)Add Comment
0
I taqiyya, you taqiyya, we all taqiyya together
written by duh_swami , September 29, 2010
HMM Shia surely, but they got their inspiration from the 'Prophet'...'What does the expression 'War is deceit', mean to a Sunni? And what about the hadith where Mohammad tells his agent of assassination that it is fine to lie in order to get close enough to the victim to kill him? Mohammad himself was a liar...He told his listeners, in another hadith or two, that animals, particularly cows and wolves can speak...When the people listening found this hard to believe, Mohammad evoked Umar and Abu Bakr, by saying that 'they' believed this also even though they were not there at the time...The examples and behavior of the 'Prophet' encourage Muslims who want to emulate him to dishonesty...Sunni and Shia alike, as well as the 70 or so other sects, will all practice taqiyya in defense of Islam, and Quran...It happens on this site every day, and I-W is just the tip of the iceberg...
0
Nice Article.
written by Reed Wilson , September 29, 2010
To Dr. Radhasyam Brahmachari. Thanks for elaborating Taqiyyah which was so far a feminine name for me.

According to Hughes Dictionary of Islam Taqiyyah is a Shi’ah doctrine. Therefore Muslims are divided on Taqiyyah. Hence not Islamic.

You also inform us that, Imam Sadiq told an enquirer that Prophet did not practice Taqiyyah after revelation of certain verse. This establishes that God forbade Taqiyyah in Quran.

Therefore how Taqiyyah can be ‘the Islamic Principle of Holy Deception’?

duh_swami says that every Muslim is practicing Taqiyyah. Can Taqiyyah become Islamic when Quran forbids it? .
0
...
written by vbv , September 30, 2010
islam is based on lies,deception,treachery ,etc.What can you expect from such a cult but to resort to these negative traits to perpetujate itself ? All this to promote arab supremacy by usurping others acheivements and also brazenly claim it as its own. For instance most of the quran is a distortion of tales robbed from the Bible. Arab barbarianism clothed in biblical tales distorted to claim legitamacy is the core of this arab cult. It is a destructive cult aiming to destroy all the civilisation and impose the arabian barbarianism. For this, deception and lies become a handy tool. I do not think any other 'religion' has such a black and dubious background in the entire history of humanity.
0
Reed
written by duh_swami , September 30, 2010
duh_swami says that every Muslim is practicing Taqiyyah. Can Taqiyyah become Islamic when Quran forbids it? .

You need to ask that of fellow Muslims...If someone is confused about taqiyya, it is Muslims not me...I understand the concept of lying very well...So did Mohammad...
0
...
written by duh_swami , September 30, 2010
When Muslims advertise what they are going to 'do to' someone tomorrow, they are telling the truth...When they try to defend Islam and Quran, they lie a lot...
0
in business matters
written by dead or alive , September 30, 2010
I own and run a small business. People of all faith walk into my door. I am of German and English heritage in U.S.A. I have a little cross on the counter top.So people know what world view i have. I never had a problem with Muslims paying their bills.Personally I want to get along with all faiths But I do not trust that religion....Islam.Their history is proof of my distrust.
0
more of.... I no trust
written by dead or alive , September 30, 2010
Check out on www.serbianna.com Go to,In The Blogs,and click on the title.. From New York to Paris to Mosqow a Russian authors dystopia is here.
0
to reed
written by y.m , September 30, 2010
Contrary to the universal and basic teaching of all the religions,Islam teaches its followers to conceal their faith and to hide their belief. This belief is known as Kitman and Taqiyyah.(meaning you can lie to non-muslims for the benefit of islam)with kafirs according to their belief,and they do not feel any guilt or shame in it.Is this not the hypocrisy and deception?yes it is in the Quran.Shia scholars prove it from the quran giveing the ref:verse 3:28.Iman jafar sadiq said, one who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kill us.(Usool al Kafi)In the same book Imam said,Associate your opponents only outwardly and oppose them inwardly.Reed you cannot reject the Hadis.If you does not believe in the Hadis you loses the deen islam.Hadises are the words and actions of Mohd and muslims cannot understand the quran without the Hadises.I understand why you denied the Hadis because it is sickening to read hadises.Imam Bukhari has provided more sexual details of mohd in his AL-Bukhari than Pindet Koka Ram in his NoVAL KOKSHASTER.In the west people like you denied the Hadis but in the muslim countries muslims also believe that all rhe Hadises are revelations from Allah(Whhi Khiffee)hidden revelation.(Ref:Late Mullana Mududy in his commentary(Tefheem-ul-Quran Vol 5,P194)Mohd had expressed them in his own words.
0
Do not mix truth with falsehood and do not deliberately hide the truth
written by Reed Wilson , September 30, 2010
To ym. I give the translation of 3:28.

"The believers must not establish friendship with the unbelievers in preference to the faithful. Whoever does so has nothing to hope for from God unless he does it out of fear. God warns you about Himself. To God do all things return".

Quran rather forbids hiding the truth. I quote:

"Do not mix truth with falsehood and do not deliberately hide the truth" (2:42).

0
Reed
written by proudestkafir , September 30, 2010
is a c;assic example of islamic taqiyah.smilies/cry.gif he says he believes in that stinking excreta of pigs qrand and does not believe in Hadiths.He is doing his best to hide the stink of islam, The haidths describe in graphic detail as to how the momeen, should with his penis covered in semen (after raping kafir women and children) and the sword covered in blood( of kafir,undisputably) should rally towards mecca,No wonder the reed fellow wants to hide the stink of the human excreta called islam.
0
Base or acid?
written by Reed Wilson , September 30, 2010
To vbv.
You write "islam is based on lies,deception,treachery ". Where did you find this base?
Quran rather says:
Do not mix truth with falsehood and do not deliberately hide the truth (2:42)
0
to reed
written by vbv , September 30, 2010
Don't tell me islam is all about honesty and truth! Taqiya is a concept found only in islam ,not in any other religion. Secondly you require the 'hadiths' to bolster and interpret this Koran ,while the whole world knows that hadiths is pure hearsay and concoction about what was supposedly said by this charlatan Muhamad,compiled 200 years after his death by some central asian zealot called Bhukari.And ,ofcourse , another by some other person called Muslim,the truth about their existence cannot be verified.It is only a vehicle used ,alongwith the quran, to promote arab supremacy and bring about destruction of world civilisation and make everyone subservient to the arabs.The quran itself has nothing original to say other than adoption of biblical fairy tales and distorting them and claiming it to be the correct version ,denigrating its original authors. Muslims are notorious for usurping others works and falsely claiming it as their own. History is replete with such instances. Why,even the modern mosque in Mecca is actually built by non-muslims with granites and marbles imported from Italy,USA,Australia,India,etc.So ,what is the arab contribution to world civilisation except usurp and claim it as their own.
0
...
written by duh_swami , September 30, 2010
So ,what is the arab contribution to world civilisation except usurp and claim it as their own.

Well, they have increased the popularity of black rocks...The black rock in Kaaba is so popular Muslims in a fit of hajj, loose control of their senses, and kiss it...Mohammad started it, Umar kissed it next because the 'prophet' did...Umar never was too much in love with rocks...He preferred kissing women...Muslims in a frenzy of Allahphrenia kiss this rock to this very day...I wonder if anyone ever cleans it?
0
Allowance to God!
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
To Dr. Radhasyam Brahmachari. You write "From that time on, Allah began revealing violent verses of jihad, such as “There is nothing in the sight of Allah which may be equated to jihad.” (9.19) and “No equal are those believers who sit at home (except those who are old and disabled) and those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in the cause of Allah” (4.95).

I am giving the translation of the verses quoted by you:

"Do you, perchance, regard the [mere] giving of water to pilgrims and the tending of the Inviolable House of Worship as being equal to [the works of] one who believes in God and the Last Day and strives hard in God's cause? These [things] are not equal in the sight of God. And God does not grace with His guidance people who [deliberately] do wrong". (9:19)

"SUCH of the believers as remain passive - other than the disabled - cannot be deemed equal to those who strive hard in God's cause with their possessions and their lives: God has exalted those who strive hard with their possessions and their lives far above those who remain passive. Although God has promised the ultimate good unto all [believers], yet has God exalted those who strive hard above those who remain passive by [promising them] a mighty reward - (4:95)

I think you should give this much allowance to God. He has to see a happy and healthy society on earth for which he introduced punishment and reward concept.

What qualities should an ideal god possess?
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
To y.m . You rightly say "In the west people like you denied the Hadis but in the muslim countries muslims also believe that all rhe Hadises are revelations from Allah(Whhi Khiffee)hidden revelation.(Ref:Late Mullana Mududy in his commentary(Tefheem-ul-Quran Vol 5,P194)Mohd had expressed them in his own words.

I am surprised how Maududy would know this secret. If it is Kafi let it remain khafi. May be Gabraeel told him. He sold his Tefheem-ul-Quran by telling something new and nonsense.

They are like that y.m.
0
Stone kissing women kissing.
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
duh-swami"He preferred kissing women...Muslims in a frenzy of Allahphrenia kiss this rock to this very day...I wonder if anyone ever cleans it?".

Preferred women on rock. Isnt it more plausible? Some othe kisses are cleaning kisses.

You are deriving pleasure wherever it is.
0
Broad-mindedness and universalism
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
Yes vbv. Abu Abdulla has given another Muahmmad to Quran ignoring muslims. He is their ideal whom they worship. He will save them from God. All people have a savoir because they don’t want to work and don’t want to listen God’s message.

May be building of makka mosque by non muslims with imported materials depict broad-mindedness and universalism of Quranic teachings.

Taqiya is NOT a concept found in Islam. Quran says “And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when you know it".

I appreciate your study of so called Islamic literature at this age vbv. Even if you have a muslim background it is quite rare.
0
gime gime gime...my hot hot houries
written by ALLAHS ETERNAL ERECTION SEX ROBOT , October 01, 2010


oh ye who believe....if u dont show me the hot hot pics of the hot hot houries in
imaginary jannat u will loose a convert.i am willing to be suicide bomber and go to
blow up infidels if i am given proof of hot virgins waiting for me.

0
A for Ayodhya.
written by Healer_999 , October 01, 2010
0
Caked with slime
written by duh_swami , October 01, 2010
Preferred women on rock. Isnt it more plausible? Some othe kisses are cleaning kisses.

Cleaning kisses are applications of slobber...The 'black rock' is crawling with germs and bacteria, and the slobber of millions over time...You would think the caretakers would at least spray it with bleach every now and then...
0
Koran approves lying, Reed Wilson, you liar.
written by Guy Macher , October 01, 2010
And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you. (Koran 4:101)

Also Mo in the hadiths is quoted as saying a Muslim barrow is permitted to lie to his wife, enemies, and the people if he has good intentions. "This way to the gas chambers, Juden. Das ist gut!" I will post the references from Bukhari et al after a Musliim barrow has denied they exist.

Reed Wilson is doing a fine job of lying (takiya) and his moon god is pleased. Perhaps he will also deny the hadiths of takiya.
0
ground zero in new york and cordoba mosque near the ground zero
written by ALLAHS ETERNAL ERECTION SEX ROBOT , October 01, 2010


in india cutlets=sunnis/shias etc first destroyed temples then built masjid over it
and then say its ours.when hindus show them archeological evidence like
stones idols they refute this saying it was planted/implanted.

in usa cutlets=sunnis/shia etc...destroy twin towers then will build cordoba
mosque near it...slowly buying land near by...finally......say : there were no
twin towers...humans r liars piglets=cutlet=sunni/shia r build mosque and
cant be removed.

even today world is not waking up.

shame on humanity.we ex-muslims=humans must work more along with
infidels to detsroy islam to avoid final world war.
twin towers its just a fairy take.
0
Reed chap
written by proudest kafir , October 01, 2010
has mastered the art of lying and taqiyya.I am sure allah will give him 5 virgins if not boys and he will be pleased with that.He is doing a good job in lyinmg for the sake of pimp allah. Or wiat a minute, he is deluded and he has no clue that he is lying.May be he banged his too often and too hard to please allah and ended up with a damaged brain for ever!
0
...
written by duh_swami , October 01, 2010
From post above...Reed Wilson is doing a fine job of lying (takiya) and his moon god is pleased. Perhaps he will also deny the hadiths of takiya.

Reed will ignore hadith, but it may be a little harder for him to explain 4:101...
He will most likely follow his chosen path of referring one aya to another aya to another aya that is referring to a certain event...Which only proves the Quran is a history book, and not the word of 'God' for all time...
0
Reed ,Can you please let us know the meaning of this from qran!
written by proudest kafir , October 01, 2010
Surah 23 - Al Mu'minun THE BELIEVERS
023.001 The believers must (eventually) win through,-

023.002 Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

023.003 Who avoid vain talk;

023.004 Who are active in deeds of charity;

023.005 Who abstain from sex,

023.006 Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,
Kindly note I have given you the verse before the verse in question.Captives or right hand possessions. Let us know where you stand in this scriptural rape ordersmilies/cry.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
0
A for Ayodhya.
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010

To Healer_999 . Everybody must honor the verdict. If the stakeholders have a case, hey can go in appeal. I will not suggest an appeal. Moreover, they will make a temple, a place of worship God.

But I dont think that there is sanity anywhere. Politicians will exploit. Why should people be exploited?

I have to see if they follow Quran or hadith.
0
Approval!!
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
Wel done Guy Macher. "And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you (Koran 4:101)".

How it is approval of lying Guy Macher?
0
Takia.
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
To Guy Macher.

Perhaps he will also deny the hadiths of takiya.

Perhaps!!!
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
To duh_swami.

Reed will ignore hadith, but it may be a little harder for him to explain 4:101...

What is your question? Please see my post for Guy Macheer above.
0
Reed is refusing to take the bait!
written by proudest kafir , October 01, 2010
If you have read the post before and after my post,Reed my question would not have escaped your attention.nevertheless, I repose the same question, again.Can you tell me ,if you approve of this allah's rape order?smilies/grin.gif
0
Explained nicely.
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
To poudest kafir.

"The believers have indeed attained true success: Those who, in their prayers, humble themselves; who avoid whatever is vain and frivolous; who give Zakah; (4) who strictly guard their private parts, except from their spouses, or those whom their right hands possess; for with regard to them they are free from blame " (23:1-6)

The 'captive' is in brakets and not in the text. The word azwajahum أَزْوَاجِهِم
used in the text means 'their spouses' and not 'their wives'.

You have to marry them in any case. If you a girl you will marry him. Marriage means husband and wife life long relationship.

Always at your service pk.
َ

0
...
written by duh_swami , October 01, 2010
How it is approval of lying Guy Macher?

Hiding yourself and your true intentions is dishonesty, when it is expressed verbally, it is lying...The quoted verse is permission to deceive and lie when the liar deems it necessary...
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , October 01, 2010
duh-swami.

"The quoted verse is permission to deceive and lie when the liar deems it necessary".

No sir.It is not established.
0
Imam Rauf
written by Walter Sieruk , October 01, 2010
Imam Rauf is practicing Taqiyyah when he claims that the ground zero mosque isn't really a mosque but some kind of cross cultural center. by making this claim not only is he using tagiyyah but he is also being disingenuous. Peolple did to wake up.
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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 01, 2010

No sir.It is not established.

Yes sir...it says what it says...

But I know, you are going to pretend that the Quran does not mean what it says, it means something else...Uthmans history book has you confused...But you are not alone, it has confused billions...
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...
written by y.m to reed , October 01, 2010
Shia muslims believes in takiyya and they insist that this concept is found in the quran.They give these two verses of the quran for their belief.Sura,the family of Imran,v:28,Let not the believers take disbelivers for their friends in preference to believers,whoso doth that hath no connection with Allah unless that ye but guard yourselves aganist them,taking securty.Allah biddeth you beware of himself,Unto Allah is the journeying.
2,Sura The Bee,verse:106.Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief -save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with faith-but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: on them is wrath from Allah,Theirs will be an awful doom.whenever Shia scholars comments on these verses of the quran they understand the meaning of these verses and prove the taiqyya in the quran even their Imam confirmed it.Shia says that their interpetation of these verses are authentic.because their exeplanation is backed by quran and their Imam.Reed,could you please explain why one should not believe in the reliability and authenticity of explanation of Shia Imam and Quran? Why one should believe in your interpation of quranic verses?
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To Waler Sieruk
written by dead or alive , October 01, 2010
Walter, maybe you might find this website interesting?www.watch.pair.com
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...
written by jack , October 02, 2010
Lying is an immoral trait.

The whole essence of lying is deployment of an ethical trait to deceive another.

Lying goes hand in hand with immorality. The Koran is a lie.
Only satan condones lying.

When one swears on the koran
it is a waste of time, as the koran sanctions lying.

The poor muslim community are shackled to a doctrine of deception.

No other religion condones or promotes Lying.

At the end of the day, it makes it impossible to be certain everything they say is truthful and honest, another curse from the koran.
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to editor
written by duh_swami , October 02, 2010
Off topic, but Islam-watch is mentioned in an article about the Ground zero mosque, carried by World Net Daily...Just thought the editor might like to know...
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written by y.m to reed , October 02, 2010
Reed,you stated that how Mududy know this secret,in your openion he tellying the nonsense to muslims.but Mududy had insisted why he believe that the Hadiths are (whhi Khiffee)because quran confirm it.His interpation back by quran itself.Look these verses of the quran.Sura,no,53,v:3 to 4.Nor,doth he speak of(his own)desire.no,2,Sura 4,v:59,O ye who believe obey Allah and Obey the messenger,see vearse 80,as well,who so obeyeth the messenger,obeyeth Allah.
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Holy spit...
written by duh_swami , October 02, 2010
Without hadith, how would anyone know to kiss the black rock?
Is it because Mohammads spit was considered holy and healing, so generations of Muslims have kissed his spit? It is never cleaned because to bleach Mohammads spit would be haram...Mohammad is the only 'Prophet' who's spit had value, for the rest of them it was just filth to spit out on the ground...
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T0: Jack
written by Clement The Islam-Watch Pastor , October 02, 2010
I agree with you that Quran is bunch of lies. Among the posters in this site only Reedwilson that does not know that the Quran is a lie. His prophets knew that no reasonable person will believe his rants as truth. That was why Mohammed did not allow those situational revelation he created to solve his personal problems with his Qurash Meccan brothers, and his wives to come between him and his crave for wealth, women and power. His vevelation keep on changing to reflect the needs of the hour. You remember the abrogation verse? That was his jokar to keep on creating new revelation whenever the new once contradicted the earlier ones. Mohammed was never known to keep those things he claim Allah said in the Quran. You can keep to four wives only but not for him. you can abstain from marrying a near kinsman or relative but not for Mohammed who has licence to marry anties and daughters inlaw. You can forgive those who offend you and persecute you but not for him. He will hunt and assasinate them where possible. So you see the Quran is jock. Something that Mohamed never respected as the word of God REED is dying for it as the eternal word of Allah. To me the Hadith is more creadible than the Quran. At least the Hadiths are peoples testimonies of what they heard Mohammed say and did but the Quran is the words of Mohammed without a witness to his imaginery Angel Gabriel and Allah, no one ever saw or heard the Angel spoke to him or any other person in Arabia. What delusion to believe that Quran is the word of eternal God.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , October 02, 2010
To y.m.
Sura,no,53,v:3 to 4. is about Quran.

Obeying could be done only during the lifetime of Muhammad. How can we obey him now?

Mududi is dead. Can we obey him now?


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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 02, 2010
Obeying could be done only during the lifetime of Muhammad. How can we obey him now?

That's clever, but not quite clever enough...Every law over 150 years old was written by a dead man, and they are obeyed today just as when the writer was alive...Uthman has been dead for a long, long time, and you still obey him...
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TO: REED
written by Clement The Islam-Watch Pastor , October 02, 2010
Can you please list out verses of the Quran that have expired with the prophet Islam so that we dont acuse you of blind faith. I understand the words of Allah are eternal words applicable to all generations.
Please school me.
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...
written by y.m to duh-swami , October 02, 2010
Thank you duh-swami to shut up the mouth of Reed.
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the challengefor Reed
written by leigh , October 02, 2010
clement - i think Reed is incapable of meeting that deadly challenge! Only "allah" knows and he is dead -poisoned by a Jew apparently - if only M was a vegetarian the quran would be longer- merciful release then...
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That's clever, but not quite clever enough
written by Reed Wilson , October 02, 2010
To duh_swami
Obeyind and following are different. We follow the laws. The law makers are living who may change those laws from time to time. There is mutual approval of people in laws.

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I can not.
written by Reed Wilson , October 02, 2010
Clement The Islam-Watch Pastor."Can you please list out verses of the Quran that have expired with the prophet Islam so that we dont acuse you of blind faith".

RW. NO Sir.
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Reed Wilson
written by duh_swami , October 03, 2010
Obeyind and following are different.

Double talk...Maybe triple talk...You did not use the word 'follow', in your original statement...You only used 'obey'...I didn't say anything about 'following'...That is your invention...
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Follow him..
written by Reed Wilson , October 03, 2010
To duh-swami.

You didn't say anything about 'following', I know. I am saying that obeying was applicable for the lifetime.

Quran is asking to follow all the messengers as they followed. Therefore God only is worthy of following.

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At your own risk
written by Reed Wilson , October 03, 2010
To y m.

"Reed,could you please explain why one should not believe in the reliability and authenticity of explanation of Shia Imam and Quran? Why one should believe in your interpretation of quranic verses?

Believe what ever convinces you. I dont have to answer God for you and you for me. I will however say that I delivered His message to him.

God says in 88:25-26: "Surely to Me is their return; and then it is for Me to call them to account".
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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 04, 2010
God says in 88:25-26: "Surely to Me is their return; and then it is for Me to call them to account".

God does not talk and never has...What evidence is there that Allah ever spoke directly to Mohammad...It is always through supernatural intermediaries like Gabriel...The Bible claims that God talked directly to Moses, but I doubt that it was a real event in real time, there is too much symbolism to be a straight forward report...If any god starts talking to you, you maybe be having serious psychological problems....
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written by Reed Wilson , October 04, 2010
To duh-swami.

No. It is not said that God spoke to Muhammad. Talking with Moses is endorsed in Quran.

I can not outright reject your "there is too much symbolism to be a straight forward report...If any god starts talking to you, you maybe be having serious psychological problems".

Machmoed also says symbolism. May be symbolism, yet there is message in it.

We are discussing Quran. I assume you have studied Quran. I dont know the degree of your knowledge of the book. So much is available on web that it is difficult to understand that if was really part of one's knowledge.
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...
written by duh_swami , October 04, 2010
We are discussing Quran.

Maybe you are discussing Quran, I am discussing a talking, speaking god...Mohammad reported talking animals as well as talking angels and demons...It's interesting that as soon as he reported it, Allah, the animals and angels stopped talking...Never to be heard from again...
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Reed is a clear liar and is
written by proudest kafir , October 05, 2010
doing his best to protect, Mohammd the child fcuker, allah the pimp and qrand the terrorist rape manual.
It says clearly in qrand that you can screw your wives, the slaves( rigth hand possessions) and the booty women in battle field.This fellow is lying to protect the pimp allah and rapist rasool combo.
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...
written by duh_swami , October 05, 2010
I can not outright reject your "there is too much symbolism to be a straight forward report...

I am talking about the Bible, the Quran has little or no symbolism...It is pretty straight forward, in its content...
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2 Duh Swami
written by Machmoed , October 05, 2010
I have explained Reed a lot about symbolism and that it was a continious story about astrology. I explained to him where the stories of Noah, Moses and even Jesus came from and how many individuals before abrahamic religions claimed exactly the same. I explained him that the bible is actually about astrology and the son of God should be the sun of God because this is exactly what is meant. 12 deciples are the same as 12 followers of Mythra and the same as 12 helpers of Horus. I explained him why MOses was angry with his people for worshipping the golden bull calf...this is nothing else than the taurus era. The reason hinduism still believes cows/bull are holy is because this believesystem is 5.000 to 6.000 years old and they stayed in the Taurus Era. Moses was the figure of aries era (jews still blow on a rams horn) and jesus began the pesci era. Just compare josehp of the old testament with jesus in the NT. If it doesn't shock you, you didn't get it.

How can islam or Quran be true if the religions before are not based on truth. Maybe muslims are too young and immature about reality and maybe they can't handle the truth. Sargon of Akki was a baby when set on a river in a basket. He is found by a royal family and raised him as their son....hmmm quite the same as moses....only Sargon of Akki is thousand years older. The same goes for Noah...the first stories weren't about Noah and the story was a little bit different. Gilgamesh epos tells us even the release of the dove and it's returnment, just like in the bible.....only the story of Gilgamesh is more than 1000 years before the hebrews start to write their so called history.

I start to believe that we can't deal with reality/truth rejecters. Truth evolves always. Those things we know today (backed up by science/evidence) are certainley more trustworthy than what tribes in the darkest ages through history have produced. Nowadays almost all believers look at what science has to say about some things in order to strengthen their faith. So Science became the tool to judge religion or became the tool to show it's devinity...wich is absurd ofcourse.
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Machmoed
written by duh_swami , October 05, 2010
One of my many xxx wives was an excellent astrologer, she specialized in relationship comparisons...I always considered it my sacred duty to rise above my birth chart until it no longer applied to me...
The problem with astrology today is that it has been polluted by distribution...Like other occult systems, astrology was developed by priests for priests, and was never intended to have public distribution. Astrology is loaded with symbolism, both cosmic and personal...It goes way beyond just doing someones chart...
It is included in Qaballah because both are records of cosmic connections and
cause and effect...Anyway, you write well on these subjects...But I'm not sure Reed can relate...If astrology can't be found in Quran, it does not exist...
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Astrology in Quran.
written by Reed Wilson , October 05, 2010
Machmoed. Your post for swami abour logheadedness of reed. I took it MSWord and did minute reading. I could not gather much since occult sciences are difficult for me. You mean Zodiac controls every thing.

Duh-swami. " But I'm not sure Reed can relate...If astrology can't be found in Quran, it does not exist...". It does exist in Quran.

At one place it says "by stars, it is a big oath if you know". At another place we find "some people find ways by stars". At one place it is:

الشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ بِحُسْبَانٍ

The sun and the moon follow courses exactly computed; (55:5)

To locate Astrology in Quran, one has to ponder. I dont remember relevant verses at the moment. I do feel that Quran mentions Astrology at many places.

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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 06, 2010
Reed, In quran it is written like astronomy, not astrology. Indeed..you have quoted a verse wich means that the moon and the sun have it's controlled ways/loops/movement, but we all know the sun doesn't move in relation to earth. It's the earth and the moon wich have courses, not the sun. The quran/arabs but also other people thought the earth didn't move and the sun and the moon did. Are you sure you don't find any error in this verse?
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...
written by duh_swami , October 06, 2010
I do feel that Quran mentions Astrology at many places.

You may 'feel' it, but you don't know it...and can't prove it...
There is no astrology in Quran...or Islam......Reed is now trying to claim astrology as Quranic ...
smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
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...
written by GeorgeOfTheJungle , October 06, 2010
All muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms of lying are:
1) Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.
2) Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Today's Muslims often try to justify Muhammad's murder of poets and others who criticized him at Medina by saying that they broke a treaty by their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset - and are always able to be broken and ripped up.

This is the islam, this is the muslim - for the last 1400 years and for today. islam is NOT a religion, is NOT even a faith. It is a barbaric and ignorant death cult perpetrated by a unintelligent, raving, and psychotically deranged Bedu camel-driver who soiled our planet 1400 years ago. He was also a pedophile. (PBUH - PISS be upon him).
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Astrology.
written by Reed Wilson , October 06, 2010
To duh_swami, you write:"You may 'feel' it, but you don't know it...and can't prove it... There is no astrology in Quran...or Islam......Reed is now trying to claim astrology as Quranic ..."

Duh, what if there was no Astrology in Quran? It is not an occult science book. I,however, find at many places where Quran mentions constellations and Zodiac. I quote below where there is expressed discourse of Astrology:

•We have placed the signs of the Zodiac in the sky, and decked it out for those who can see; 15:16

•Blessed is He who placed in the heavens constellations of stars, and placed a burning lamp in it and the luminous moon. (25:61)

•I CALL TO witness the sky (bespangled) with the signs of the Zodiac, 85:1

If I work little more I might more references from Quran despite the fact that quran is very consized.


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written by duh_swami , October 06, 2010
None of those quotes is Astrology...You notice, the word 'zodiac' may be used, but Allah neglects to tell you just exactly what that is or if it has any uses...

•We have placed the signs of the Zodiac in the sky, and decked it out for those who can see; 15:16

12 Signs of the Zodiac are, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn.
Virgo - Taurus...

Please cite the aya's where Allah names these and explains how they might be used...
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Burooj.
written by Reed Wilson , October 06, 2010
Yes duh-swami. Arabic word burooj is used. They are houses. You consult the dictionary, you will get detail. I will find for you. Not a big deal.

We have to learn our selves. Quran will not teach Astrology.
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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 06, 2010
Quran will not teach Astrology.

Of course not...First, Mohammad knew nothing of astrology, so he could not have received any revelations about it...The second thing is that Astrology does not just refer to 'signs' of the Zodiac, but the planets as well...The planets have 'god' names that are not Arabic, so Allah does not know them...Any Muslim practicing astrology is practicing shirk, and committing a blasphemy...Astrology is a record of the relationships between different 'god's, and their powers, both cosmically and personally...The signs, Virgo, Libra etc, are the names of those relationships...The Quran knows absolutely nothing about these, and if Allah wanted you to know about them, they would be in Quran...

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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 07, 2010
Reed, i told you that quran if it mentiones stars, zodiac etc it is about astronomy. Astrology is forbidden in islam because it is supposed to be the work of satan. Astrology is about personify stars as it were living entities or even Gods. Astronomy however is science in islam and this is a sign for those who think and understand according to islam. I hope you now know the difference between astronomy and astrology.
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...
written by Reed Wilson , October 07, 2010
To Machmoed. Thank you for tellong me difference of Astrology/Astronomy.

Kindly also explain what are various applications of Asrology. What is the relationship with stars.

Quran mentions burooj. They are various stopovers or resting places of stars.

Quran says people learn finding ways through stars. Does it come in astrology?
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Libra
written by Reed Wilson , October 07, 2010
duh-swami. In Quran I have found one Zodiac name: وَالسَّمَاءَ رَفَعَهَا وَوَضَعَ الْمِيزَانَ
ََ
I raised the sky and placed balance (Libra) there"
We know that Meezan is a zodiac sign, which is Libra in Astrology.

I will revert to the subject when Machmoed tells me the applications of Astrology.
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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 07, 2010
Just because Mohammad or Uthman heard of the word libra is not evidence of astrology in Quran...One word is not a system...
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Follow Hadith.
written by Reed Wilson , October 07, 2010
To Clement. You write "To me the Hadith is more creadible than the Quran".

Ok. Then follow that.
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Funny or not?
written by Reed Wilson , October 07, 2010
duhswami. Buruj is purely astrological term I dug for you. I have shown you libra also. You asked me show me one aya. I did. Now I have to look for another 11 zodiac sign. I am working on it. I am waiting for machmoed to tell me the applications.

From Muhammad?Uthman heard Libra?

Sometimes I feel why should I do all that? They should ask from the author.
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Jeard Libra.
written by Reed Wilson , October 07, 2010
To duh_swami.
"Just because Mohammad or Uthman heard of the word libra is not evidence of astrology in Quran...One word is not a system.."

And what about burooj and movement of stars? Burooj is mother of Astrology.

Let Machmoed tell me applications of astrology. I will tell you 'system' also. Inshallah.
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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 08, 2010
Astrology is the study of influence of movements of stars, etc. on human affairs, whereas Astronomy is a science of heavenly bodies.

It is needless to mention that one need not to dilate into the science of the heavenly bodies, as it is very crystal clear and as sure as the Sun rises in the east at a paritcular time and sets in the west at a particular time. So in the case of another heavenly body-Moon, which also has its fixed rotation. This is evident in the Quran.

"And the Sun runneth on unto a resting place for him .That is the measuring of the mighty, the wise. And for the Moon, we have appointed mensions till she returns like and old shrivelled palm leaf. It is not for the sun to overtake the Moon, nor doth the nights outstrips the day. They float each in an orbit." (Surah X X X VI. verse 38,39,and 40). These verse prove the well ordained for well knit mechanism of Allah's creation. At another place He says, "He is who appointed the Sun a splendour and the Moon a light and measured for her stages that he might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah has created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge (Surah X verse 5)." He further commands, "He is the cleaver of the day break, and he hath appointed the night for stillness, and the Sun and the Moon for reckoning. That is the measuring of the mighty, the wise "(Surah VI verse 96).

We find that in the Holy Quran, in several verses, Almighty has asked and encouraged mankind to look into and ponder over the objects of his creation, including the heaven, the stars and the Moon, in orders the understand his signs and thereby his supreme might, glory and greatness.

"Say (O Muhammad) : Behold what is in the heaven and the earth! But revelations and warnings avail not folk who will not perceive." (Surah Yunus : verse 101).

"Say (O Muhammad) : Travel in the land and see how he originated creation, so will Allah produce a later creation, for Allah has power over all things." (Surah Al-Ankabut : verse 20).

"Do they not reflect in their own minds? Allah created not the heaven and the earth, and that is between them, save with truth and for a destined end; you are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord (At the Resurrection)! (Surah Al-Rum : verse smilies/cool.gif.

"And verily in the heaven we have set mansions of the stars and we have beautified it for beholders."
(Surah Al-Hijri; verse 16).

"And he hath constrained the night and the day and the sun and Moon to be services unto you, and the stars are made subservient by His command. Lo! herein indeed are portents for people who sense." (Surah Al-Nahi : verse 12).


Reed, All these verses are about astronomy. Astrology is haram! it's pathetic that even muslims do not know this. It's about celestial bodies, not about it's influences directly on humans. For example the moon and the sun are merely instruments to measure time quran sais.
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2 Reed: astrology=shirk/disbelief
written by Machmoed , October 08, 2010
From islamic site:

Question
Why does islam forbid prediction of the future through astrology and other sources like these? If we use these methods to find out what a person's true personality is, is it haram?

Answer


Not only is the practice of astrology Haraam , but also visiting an astrologist and listening to his predictions, buying books on astrology or reading one's horoscope are also forbidden! Since astrology is mainly used for predicting the future, those who practice it are considered fortune-tellers. Consequently, one who seeks his horoscope comes under the ruling contained in the Prophet's statement: "The Salaah (daily prayer) of whoever approaches a fortune-teller and asks him about anything will not be accepted for forty days and nights." [Reported by Hafsah and collected by Muslim (Sahih Muslim (English Trans.), vol. 4, p. 1211, no. 5440).]

The punishment in this Hadeeth is simply for approaching and asking the astrologist, even if one is in doubt about the truth of his statements. If one is in doubt about the truth or falsehood of astrological information, he is in doubt about whether or not others know the unseen and the future besides Allaah. This is a form of Shirk because Allaah has clearly stated:

"With Him are the keys to the unseen and none knows it except Him" [Soorah al-An'aa,m 6:59]

"Say: None in the heavens or earth knows the unseen except Allaah." [Soorah an-Naml 27:65]

If, however, one believes in the predictions of their horoscope, whether spoken by an astrologist or written in books of astrology, he falls directly into Kufr (disbelief) as stated by the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) "Whoever approaches an oracle or fortune-teller and believes in what he says, has disbelieved in what was revealed to Muhammad." [Reported by Abu Hurayrah and collected by Ahmad and Abu Daawood (Sunan Abu Dawud (English Trans.), vol. 3, p. 1095, no. 3895).]
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Reed: astrology=shirk/disbelief
written by Reed Wilson , October 08, 2010
To Machmoed. You have quoted Islamic site. Did they quote Quran to substantiate haram?

Quran insists onacquiring knowledge and Astrology is knowldge. In chapter 12 we find predictions on interpretation of dreams. We find the knowldge given by Haaroot and Maaroot.

Quran says everything created has a purpose and role.

Anyway, if the Islamic site, cites Quran I will not grudge believing it. But Quran....
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...
written by duh_swami , October 08, 2010
Quran insists onacquiring knowledge and Astrology is knowldge.

So is the knowledge and practice of Satanism...Does Allah want us to study and practice Satanism? How about the knowledge of ceremonial magic where demons are evoked...Should we acquire that knowledge as well?

Your arguments are too weak to stand up...The more you try to give Quran credit for everything, the weaker you get...Machmoed has explained it to you in detail, and you still don't get it...
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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 08, 2010
Astrology is not science Reed, you can't measure astrology. A horoscope is made through astrology and it is Haram. Astronomy is science like how stars are born or black holes or milkyways and the planets etc. are all astronomy (studying the objects as they are, not seeing them as our individual suthsayers). When believing these planets or constellations could predict or involve in humans events it is haram.

Quran for example: "With Him are the keys to the unseen and none knows it except Him" [Soorah al-An'aa,m 6:59]

"Say: None in the heavens or earth knows the unseen except Allaah." [Soorah an-Naml 27:65]

This means no one can predict the (future) except Allah.
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written by Reed Wilson , October 08, 2010
duh-swami. I dont find expressedly written in Quran that Astrology was haram.

I was enquiring from Machmoed the implementation of astrology, so that I may consider those things in the light of Quran if really forbidden.

I know that making and using weapons of mass destruction is forbidden in Islam. This does not mean that studying the Nuclear Science was also forbidden. Acquiring knowledge is not forbidden.

For example Islam does not stop you to earn money, but it does suggests how it should be spent.
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Wait.
written by Reed Wilson , October 08, 2010
duh-swami. My post will appear Inshallah after scrutiny of editor. Wait please.
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Horrorscope.
written by Reed Wilson , October 08, 2010
To Machmoed. Please don’t repeat the difference of Astrology/Astronomy.

If astrology is not science than what it is?
How you say Horoscope/astrology is haram? Who haramofied it?

You say predicting is also haram. You mean in Islam?

Predicting can be done through acquirable knowledge. It is not ghaib which is translated as unseen. It does not mean invisible. Light like all the energies is invisible, it is not ghaib.

Do you mean prediction is the application of astrology? If yes, I got my answer. Please confirm.

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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 08, 2010
written by Reed Wilson , October 08, 2010
duh-swami. My post will appear Inshallah after scrutiny of editor. Wait please.

It might have appeared, but you used the invalid word inshallah, so it didn't...
So you think your post is so important that the editor will scrutinize it...study it for hours, maybe days...smilies/grin.gif...

Reed...duh-swami. I dont find expressedly written in Quran that Astrology was haram.

Nor will you find any aya, saying it is haram to urinate in the corner...It has already been explained to you why it is haram...How many Muslims, real or fake, do you know who charge money to do someones horoscope/chart, or even as a hobby? Is it halal for the Muslim astrologer to rely on conjunctions of the planets and its gods to advise others of their personal make up and destiny, rather than read Allah's words from Quran? Which is better for Muslims, to read a book on astrology or to read the Quran?
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Comparison.
written by Reed Wilson , October 08, 2010
duh-swami. You are asking, "Is it halal for the Muslim astrologer to rely on conjunctions of the planets and its gods to advise others of their personal make up and destiny, rather than read Allah's words from Quran? Which is better for Muslims, to read a book on astrology or to read the Quran?"

I dont think if Astrolgy or anylogy is haram.

Read Quran. You will yourself know the answer.
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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 08, 2010
Read Quran. You will yourself know the answer.

That's not an answer...You lost the astrology argument posts ago, so why don't you just give it up...
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Applied Astronomy.
written by Reed Wilson , October 09, 2010
To Machmoed. You write "Astrology is the study of influence of movements of stars, etc. on human affairs, whereas Astronomy is a science of heavenly bodies".

Therefore, Astrology is Applied Astronomy.

It is never haram in Islam. It is a science_ a science of prediction. We see predictions in Quran:

"When your Lord said to the angels: 'I am placing on the earth a caliph,' they replied: 'Will You put there who corrupts and sheds blood, when we exalt Your praises and sanctify You?' He said: 'I know what you do not know" (2:30)

All knowledge and sciences are bestowed by God. It is not haram. Its misuse is haram like misuse of every thing is haram.

Dont you find in Quran that in movements of stars there are signs of God for those who possess knowledge for those who think?


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Give up!
written by Reed Wilson , October 09, 2010
To duh_swami. Your excellency you write "Read Quran. You will yourself know the answer."That's not an answer...You lost the astrology argument posts ago, so why don't you just give it up...".

My suggestion to you was due to the fact that I can not quote so much of Quran here. I do that when there is direct mention on a subject. Here you have to conceive yourself.
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Protocol.
written by Reed Wilson , October 09, 2010
duh-swami. My post will appear in befitting manner after scrutiny by the Adminstrator. This is my protocol.

It was about why dont you just give up.
0
...
written by duh_swami , October 09, 2010
Reed...Therefore, Astrology is Applied Astronomy.

No it's not...Why don't you give up...You just sound silly...
The more you try to make 'everything' fit into the Quran, the sillier you sound...
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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 09, 2010
My post will appear in befitting manner after scrutiny by the Adminstrator. This is my protocol.

It must be the editors protocol as well, since he seems to scrutinize a lot of your posts...smilies/cheesy.gif
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The Pope got it right
written by lw1 , October 09, 2010
In the seventh conversation ...the emporer touches on the theme of of the holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the 'Book' and the 'infidels', he addresseses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying : 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by sword the faith he preached.'
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Nothing new.
written by Reed Wilson , October 10, 2010
To Pope. Your Holyness, you have reportedly said "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new".

Sir, why do you want Muhammad should bring someting new? Jesus Christ says:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

You should be happy, Sir, that he did not bring anything new. This is the prime reason for my following Quran.
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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 11, 2010
Every muslim knows that astrology is Haram. Search and ask yourself to every muslim in your neighbourhood...they all know! But i don't think it is haram in Wilsonism. In the islam understood by you everything could be halal. no one knows or can know what it's in store for us...not stars, not comets or whatever. According to islam only Allah knows. He set up laws/rules, so astrology is not an exact science like astronomy where they can repeat expirements with the same outcome. Astrology however doesn't do this. This is what i meant with science. Is voodoo science and is it good to know some of this science? for what purpose? to harm people?

Nostradamus was also a astrologist...a very bad one. Astrologists atre not the same as astronomists. The latter ones are the real scientists...to me.
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What do the muslims know!!
written by Reed Wilson , October 11, 2010
Machmoed. You write "Every muslim knows that astrology is Haram. Search and ask yourself to every muslim in your neighbourhood...they all know!"

Are you run out of logic? Would you believe every muslim? If they know that air is a compond, will it be a compound?

Allah has explicitly given a list of what is haram in Quran. All such Muslims are destined for hell, unless they repent and come back to right path.

Yes, Nostradamus was an astrologist and not an astronomist.

Astronomy has 5 major branches so far. One is Astrobiology. It is basically the study of the biology of astronomy.
0
...
written by duh_swami , October 11, 2010
Are you run out of logic? Would you believe every muslim?

You didn't ask that of me, but I will respond to it anyway...

About some things yes...Pious Muslims, which you are not, are in total agreement about Islam, Quran, and Hadiths, and the messages from Allah coming from those and the 'Prophet'...Except for some small variations of sects, they all agree or they would not be Muslims...Sharia stipulates...Apostasy is 'to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it'
Any Muslim that tells me that they believe in Allah, and Quran, or that Mohammad was Allah's messenger, I believe that they believe that, and I can take their word for it...Any Muslim that says differently, is not a Muslim but an apostate...So yes, I can believe 'every' 'Muslim about some things...
Astrology is not halal just because you claim it so...You have opinions, but you don't get to set any rules...
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2 REED
written by Machmoed , October 11, 2010
Machmoed. You write "Every muslim knows that astrology is Haram. Search and ask yourself to every muslim in your neighbourhood...they all know!"

Are you run out of logic? Would you believe every muslim? If they know that air is a compond, will it be a compound?


Reed, if we have to know what muslims believe, we have to ask muslims. It's a believe remember, so it is more important what they believe than what they should believe. You can say a 100 times they didn't understand but then again, you can't make an Umma by having your own specific thoughts and rituals etc about specific islamic issue.

Here again about astrology wich is haram in islam: Opinions of contemporary scholars
According to jurists, the study of astronomy (ilm al-hay'ah) is lawful, as it is useful in predicting the beginning of months and seasons, determining the direction of salat (prayer), and navigation. They agree that this branch of science be used in determining the beginning and end of the month of Ramadan. As for astrology, this is considered by many Islamic scholars as haram (unlawful), as knowledge of the Unseen is known only by Allah. Dr. Husam al-Din Ibn Musa `Afana, a Professor of the Principles of Fiqh at Al-Quds University, Palestine, states the following:

"First of all, it is worth noting that the Arabs knew astronomy a long time ago. They would predict time through observing the movements of stars. According to the scholars of Shar`iah, there are two terms confused in many people's minds when it comes to dealing with the question in hand. These terms are astronomy and astrology. Astronomy is the science that deals with studying the movements of the celestial bodies and reducing observations to mathematical order. That science is useful in determining time, seasons, the direction of Prayer, etc. Astrology, on the other hand, is concerned with studying the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs. Astrologists believe that the movements of stars have an influence on people's lives. Both Muslim astronomers and [religious] scholars refuse the prophecies of astrologists."[1]
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , October 11, 2010
Machmoed. Who makes haram or halal other than God? It is a serious issue in Quran. Allah says: Ask them to call their witness who will testify that God has made certain things haram. Even if they do testify, do not testify with them. Do not follow the desires of those who have rejected Our revelations and the pagans who do not believe in the Day of Judgment., say, "Let me tell you about what your Lord has forbidden (haram) Do not consider anything equal to God; Be kind to your parents; Do not kill your children out of fear of poverty, for We give sustenance to you and to them. Do not even approach indecency either in public or in private. Do not kill any living being without justification (like hunting for fun).Thus does He command you that you may learn wisdom. (6:150-51)

Muslim astronomers and [religious] scholars are not competent to declare anything haram or halal.

Refusal of prophecies of astrologists is a different thing. There can be so many other factors in addition to astrological considerations that one may refuse to have complete faith on the prophecies.

If you say that astrology is haram according to Quran, I have no other option except accepting it.

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2 Reed: islam is more than quran alone
written by Machmoed , October 12, 2010
You wrote: If you say that astrology is haram according to Quran, I have no other option except accepting it.

Yes it is. it's not mentioned by name, like many things are not mentioned. Smoking is not haram, but since we know it can kill you it is haram. It's all about intention Reed. Suthsayers are haram and if accepting stars could predict your future it is haram and this is what we are talking about. It's the intention of the study. Astrology is about their eefect on human lives....well you know it is haram because only God/Allah knows what's in store for us. You see Reed, there are a lot issues where scholars have doubt, but not on the issue of astrology. Quran gives you examples of how to deal with some matters. I wrote the whole time it is haram in Islam. Quran is not islam Reed. Quran is Quran only. Fiqh is also not quranic. Sharia is not quranic but it is a system practiced by the most islamic countries. Your religion should be quranism. I think you know what happenes to those who follow quiran on their own. They are considered as outlaws. According to islam you're an outlaw.
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Fuqaha.
written by Reed Wilson , October 12, 2010
Machmoed. Your post is nice.

If Islam is submission of your will to the will of God, we get the will of God through scriptures only.

You agree that astrology is not mentioned as such in Quran. Quran claims that it is simple and covers everything God expects from his servants. Therefore there is no place of Fiqh. The fuqaha have created forcedly their vacancy in religion. Do you observe how Jesus condemned fuqaha in NT?

Muslim fuqaha claim that they deduce opinion in the light of Quran. No need when it is simple and covers requirement. They have made Islam faqeeh dependent. They are telling lies. They mostly derive from their God, the hadis.

It looks funny to have such discourse with a person who has revealed his whole sole regarding religion(s). My feeling is that you know more of Quran than many muslim ‘scholars’. Hadis has locked their thinking.

Astrology with all its merits is allowed. May be having firm faith on the predictions are disliked. Even weather predictions talk of likelihood. They say Adolf Hitler was defeated due to his firm belief in astrology.



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100th post.
written by Reed Wilson , October 13, 2010
2 Reed: islam is more than quran alone
To Machmoed. You write "2 Reed: islam is more than quran alone".

Machmoed. Islam more than Quran alone is more than Islam. What is more than Islam or less than Islam is NOT Islam. It is something else. This is 100th post on this thread.
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Reed is refusing to take the bait!
written by Reed Wilson , October 13, 2010
To proudest kafir. Once you asked "Can you tell me ,if you approve of this allah's rape order?

I dont know what happened. Anyway, today I have anwered your similar question elsewhere. For your convenience:
Evil and piety.
written by Reed Wilson , October 13, 2010
To proudest kafir. After long long time I get an academic question on this site:

"Is Mr Reed child screwing a good or an evil act"?

We know dear that evil is morally wrong or bad;
Killing is evil, lying is evil, slandering is evil, abuse is evil, gossip is evil: envy is evil, hatred and all its products are evil, all these things are evil.
Desire is the root of evil, illusion is the root of evil. Evil is considered as anti God.

Now who will tell us what is evil? Only God can tell us what is evil.

God says I have already put what is evil and good in your genes. I have quoted above a verse of Quran. I repeat for you."And inspired him with knowledge of evil and piety. 91:8فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا

It is therefore anybody's guess.
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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 13, 2010
Machmoed. Islam more than Quran alone is more than Islam. What is more than Islam or less than Islam is NOT Islam. It is something else.

Tell that to those who defined islam as it is. If you say quran=islam then islam = different than islam known to the world. I hope you will succeed convince al azhar and all those who really believe(d) islam is as we know it and as you deny it. What i'm saying is that even if i agree with you, islam as defined by the majority of muslims does not. Do you agree with this?
0
...
written by duh_swami , October 13, 2010
Evil...I you didn't have evil, you would not know what good is...Evil is not the items listed in post above, those are the manifestation of forms of evil...Evil can take thousands of forms...But evil only exists and acts in man...Evil requires a standard...Things like trees, animals, insects, volcano's, hurricanes etc, have no such standard...People may die in a flood, but the flood is not an evil...Evil has to do with morality or lack of it in humans...Nature is neither moral nor immoral, it is amoral, and this is the nature of 'God the creator'...
Evil is enabled by a mind that is selfish...The intensity of an evil act reflects the degree of selfishness...All atrocity is committed by the selfish...Politics and/or religion, just gives the selfish free reign to practice their selfishness...
When a person has super-selfish thoughts, or injures or kills, or enslaves because of it, they are called evil...This is why Islam is evil...It is the most selfish system, with the most selfish disciples in the world...Allah is selfish,
everything is for him...Mohammad was selfish...women and riches were for him, his companions were selfish for the same reasons...The Quran is a recipe book for selfish soup...It is the nectar of the god of Islam...Those who drink this evil brew, becomes selfish...They are in it for themselves, the goal is Paradise and the chance for the virgins and really swell afterlife...Selfishness enables the jihadist to kill in the name of Allah...This is the evil in its most selfish form...I will kill you to gain something for myself...
That was Mohammad's basic mode of operation, still in practice today...and it 'is' evil...
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Majority of them...
written by Reed Wilson , October 13, 2010

Machmoed. You write:

"What i'm saying is that even if i agree with you, islam as defined by the majority of muslims does not. Do you agree with this?

Let us see what Quran say about majority:

أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ and نَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَand وَأَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ and أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ and َ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَجْهَلُونَ

There are eight more mentions of majority which I have not quoted.

I do agree with that.
0
......
written by Machmoed , October 14, 2010
I agree with Duh since muslims fight others just because they believe their God has ordered it. If I believe my God/Allah is the right God and force others to believe in my god it is selfish. If I enslave people because I believe God has permitted that and that it is He who gave those people in my hand, it is selfish and evil. Even Allah seems not to know everything in sura’s. For example when iblis did not prostrate to adam, Allah seems to be surprised and asks iblis why he doesn’t prostrate. Except that Allah didn’t know Iblies wasn’t going to prostrate, he also didn’t know that it was He who made him Iblies in the first place. Iblies must be created like he is but how come Allah is surprised. Didn’t he make him not prostrate? Just read the sura and you will laugh at the so called allknown deity. It seems he is a child and when Iblies asked Allah to give him time till judgement day, he said that’s ok and humans became due to Allah and Iblies their fight, victims. What does Adam have to do with Iblies not prostrating. Nothing! It’s the deity who is wrong here. He made Iblies like this and it is he who made Adam like he is. Why be angry with Iblies or Adam. He should be angry at himself because it is he who created both and it is He who gave them permission to be as they are. There is so much wich showes the immaturity of this vision/scripture.
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Surprised!!
written by Reed Wilson , October 17, 2010
To Machmoed. On your above post. How Allah was surprised? Asking why he did not prostrate does not establish that Allah did not know.

You can always call for an explanation from your servants for disobeying and insubordination. Your asking for an explanation does not mean that you did not know.

He could make him prostrate but offence was already committed. We also can disobey Allah. There is no police. You wouldn't say that if you knew Allah.

Your logic is unMachmoed like in this case.
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2Reed
written by Machmoed , October 18, 2010
Reed, you're in denial. The sura about Iblies and Adam is worthless and a lie. Just explain me this Reed. When did Iblies become Iblies? the moment he didn't prostrate or before? Was he a jinn (iblies) or did he become a jinn when not prostrating to Adam? You see Quran describes it as if Iblies was selfish at the moment he had to prostrate, but who made him like this and how could Allah not know when creating him?

I know Allah is not like that Reed. We are not discussing God/Allah here....we can't...and islam can't either. That's my point. Arabs tried but couldn't. Islam is their effort and we all know they blew it big time.
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Reed
written by duh_swami , October 18, 2010
You wouldn't say that if you knew Allah.

So you 'know' Allah and others do not. A supremacist's position...
Some Christians also say that about God, and I scowl at them also...

No one 'knows' Allah or God...You only know 'of' him from untrustworthy sources...In your case the dubious Quran...
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...
written by Reed Wilson , October 18, 2010
To Machmoed. You write "The sura about Iblies and Adam is worthless".

There is no sura about Iblies in Quran.
and a lie. Just explain me this Reed
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No such sura.
written by Reed Wilson , October 19, 2010
To Machmoed. You write "The sura about Iblies and Adam is worthless".

There is no sura about Iblies in Quran Machmoed.
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2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 19, 2010
Sura's are created after the mesenger's death. They gathered the verses and categorised them pure on subject. Here are some verses about iblies and adam in Quran. Now tell me, is this deity allknowing the way it is told/written??

Al-Baqara [2:34] And behold We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam"; and they bowed down: not so iblis: he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith.
Al-Araf [7:11] It is We who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrated, not so iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.
Al-Hijr [15:31] Not so iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.
Al-Hijr [15:32] (Allah) said: "O iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"
Al-Hijr [15:33] (iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom, thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."
Al-Hijr [15:36] (iblis) said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
Al-Hijr [15:39] (iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong―
Al-Isra [17:61] Behold! We said to the angels: "Bow down unto Adam": they bowed down except iblis: he said "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"
Al-Kahf [18:50] Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down to Adam": they bowed down except iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers!
Taha [20:116] When We said to the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam" they prostrated themselves, but not iblis: he refused.
Ash-Shuara [26:95] "And the whole hosts of iblis together.
Sad [38:74] Not so iblis: he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.
Sad [38:75] (Allah) said: "O iblis! what prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with My hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
Sad [38:76] (iblis) said: "I am better than he: Thou createdst me from fire, and him Thou createdst from clay."
Sad [38:79] (iblis) said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
Sad [38:82] (iblis) said: "Then by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong―
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Machmoed
written by duh_swami , October 19, 2010
Your evidence is overwhelming...
0
...
written by Reed Wilson , October 19, 2010
Machmoed. You write "Here are some verses about iblies and adam in Quran".

Here you are. There is no specific sura on Iblis.

You are asking " Now tell me, is this deity allknowing the way it is told/written??

Yes. It is between God and Iblis. He knows best. You might get his stretegy by giving serious thought to what you have quoted.
0
2 Reed
written by Machmoed , October 20, 2010
I might think you are blind Reed. Look how childish the author is. Strategy? now you're being funny. There is no strategy whatsoever. A god who is telling stories like:
Sad [38:75] (Allah) said: "O iblis! what prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with My hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"

Imagine God made adam with his own hands (lauphable human) and then asks questions to iblies. Art thou haughty? art thou one of the high ones? Is this deity confused? One of the high ones means there are more than He. Typical for the arabs, they believe allah is best of deceivers, best of protectors etc. This deity constantly brag about how mighty he is and is quite jealous when not followed.

A simple truth has to be said just once and everybody will understand if it's truth. But when repeating the same thing in diffrents variants is brainwashing and you know it.

If you knew something about history of the early islam then you would know that Al hajjaj (around 700-715 A.D) the luitenant of Abd almalik (died in 711 i believe) collected existing quran parts, wrote his own, spread them to the corners of arabic empire and destroyed all the other ones. They already know that uthmanic recension never existed. Al hajjaj was in favour of the Ummayads and ofcourse they all edited and changed some parts (this is history and not hadith). Abu Turab had his own Quran with some differences (Abu Turab is Ali in case you didn't know) but this is from hadith.

Try to read some unbiased history and try to see it through different angles. Use the arab history but also how others saw the rise of islam in those days. You have to research it, but please don't think Quran didn't change for 1400 years because this is not true. It didn't change for 1200 years. You know islam is not born in Mecca. Mecca was totally unknown in that time and was also not a tradecity. Mecca was not important till after the second part of the 8th century.

if you studied quran good you would have known that it is not about Mecca but about Jaruzalem. The real hijra is not mecca-medina but the return to the promised land where they were banned and persecuted in the 3d and 4d century by byzantines and persians. This is the graet hijra, not some individuals who fled from Mecca. It's an exodus of more than 300 years and this is the reason that moses is mentioned a lot in quran from the beginning.
0
Communication Gap.
written by Reed Wilson , October 20, 2010
To Machmoed. Thanks for all the labor. I appreciate. I don’t doubt an iota your sincerity. Else, how we would communicate!!

Devine standard of truth is different. There are three kinds of realities viz Ainul yaqeen, Ilmul Yaqeen and Haqqul Yaqeen. This means we believe what we see, what we observe through wisdom and experimentation and we believe what God tells us through his message. The absolute truth is divine. For example God says there are skies. We don’t see any yet we believe it as حَقُّ الْيَقِينِ Haqqul Yaqeen. One day we might find them. It will be عَيْنَ الْيَقِينِAinul Yaqeen and عِلْمَ الْيَقِينِIlmul Yaqeen.

For you history can be a proof. You can even argue that why would they lie! On divorced Qibla you said you are the only Muslim who deny. How could I accept? No matter if entire Six billion say the same thing. You are very generous in believing.

I can conveniently agree with you about Hijra. If you say Abdulla was not the name of father of Messenger, I will not object. If “Abu Turab had his own Quran with some differences, why didn’t he correct? He is believed to be Caliph and successor of Uthman. Logic doesn’t endorse. I am concerned with my copy which I believe to be perfect. I have reasons for that.

I find some bias in you against Arabs. I am also not an Arab lover. Muhammad was an Arab. There were more Arabs who were his rivals as compared to his believers. Once I quoted 13 aksarahum from Quran.
0
Reed
written by Machmoed , October 21, 2010
For example God says there are skies. We don’t see any yet we believe it as حَقُّ الْيَقِينِ Haqqul Yaqeen. One day we might find them.

We already know the skies and it's different than the vision of greeks and quran. There are no 7 heavens or skies. The religions think earth is centre of creation, wich is hardly to accept.

You say why Ali didn't correct. Now here you don't get it i believe. What's there to correct? who told you that Uthman had the right one? that's the whole issue because known masahif before were slightly different but were all destroyed except a few (from the time of end 7th century and early 8th century) but these are different than the quran of today. This is why all scholars agree that the text of the quran went through a development. I can't ignore it like many historical contradictions to the story of islam. I believe quran is not needed when understanding why people believe they need it....(deep thought)
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Skies.
written by Reed Wilson , October 22, 2010
Conjecture can never sufficiently replace the Truth, Machmoed.

We have NO knowledge of sky or skies.

I would not suggest you believing in Quran before reading Machmoed. Muslims are doing so with no avail.

You write "The religions think earth is centre of creation, wich is hardly to accept". I didnt come across such reference. Impliedly yes.

0
To Machmoed.
written by Reed Wilson , October 22, 2010
My reply to the above was not found satisfactory by the adminstrator.

I will try to write more suitable one.

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